5 things we learned about the legacy of emo music from author Chris Payne
Payne’s new book is called Where Are Your Boys Tonight?: The Oral History of Emo's Mainstream Explosion
While millennials like to think they invented emo music, the genre has actually been around since the '80s. But in the early 2000s, emo suddenly became wildly popular — and it's still shaping the sound of mainstream music to this day.
Chris Payne is a writer from New Jersey and the author of Where Are Your Boys Tonight?: The Oral History of Emo's Mainstream Explosion 1999-2008, a book that explores the impact of emo music at the turn of the 21st century. He told Elamin Abdelmahmoud about his experience witnessing this genre's transformation firsthand, and what he learned from interviewing more than 150 key players in the world of emo for his new book.
We've included some highlights below, edited for length and clarity. For the full discussion, listen and follow the Commotion with Elamin Abdelmahmoud podcast, on your favourite podcast player.
Emo music is kind of hard to define
"[It's] the million dollar question, right?" Payne said when asked what defines emo music.
"Emo has a lot of different definitions for different people. For me, it can be like the old DIY stuff, like Cap'n Jazz [and] American Football, and then also the more popular stuff like … My Chemical Romance, Paramore and even the emo-rap stuff like Lil Peep.
"I think emo is music that has some roots in hardcore punk, but it's often more melodic, more vulnerable — and often really over the top. [There's] really performative aspects in emo, which I tend to enjoy."
Emo is the black sheep among other punk subcultures
For a time in the 2000s, emo was "a lot more popular" than its '90s punk predecessors, said Payne. And that often rubbed early punk listeners the wrong way.
"I think generations tend to build up little walls in between each other, or just do things to make themselves different — to establish yourself as, 'This is me, and I'm not the same kid as my older brother or my older cousin,' or whatever," he explained.
Though one big thing emo had going for it at its outset was how relatable the content could be to individual listeners.
WATCH | Official video for Welcome To The Black Parade by My Chemical Romance:
"The 2000s emo stuff that got popular, it was a lot more vulnerable. It was a lot more about the self, whereas the '90s punk was a lot more about railing against the system, about sociopolitical stuff. Honestly, I think a lot of [the hate] just has to do with how popular and how pop-y those 2000s bands got," said Payne.
The author also suggested that part of the reason why there was so much resistance to the genre in its early days was because it was championed by teenage girls.
"[There's] definitely some sexism baked into there, because so much of what blew up the scene seriously was just, like, young girls. And the queer kids, too — especially now. It's just such a diverse fan base, which is honestly a lot of why this stuff seems so relevant and why it can support a book like mine, and that feels really special."
The relationship between emo music and the suburbs
The early days of emo music were inextricably wrapped up in suburban life — and Payne said that's no accident. Emo music and culture empowered young people to assert their independence through whatever skills or interests they might have, and find inspiration beyond their surroundings.
"Like a lot of punk over the years, going back to the '70s, it was so accessible to a beginner…. It just gave you a sense that if you were a kid who could play an instrument, or if you did a zine, or if you like blogs — because, you know, this was when MySpace was popping — it gave you a sense that you could do something without a parent or teacher giving you permission, or without having, like, a fancy job in the city. It just gave you a sense that, 'Oh, me and my friends [are] 17 or 16, but we've got this band and we're making moves.'"
WATCH | Official video for Jesus of Suburbia by Green Day:
How a punk subculture went mainstream
By the mid-2000s, emo had moved past its punk roots and evolved into a more pop-leaning sound. Soon, more people than ever before were listening to the likes of The Middle by Jimmy Eats World and Sugar, We're Going Down by Fall Out Boy — even if it went against all punk sensibilities to be popular in the mainstream music scene.
Payne specifically attributes this shift in part to Pete Wentz of Fall Out Boy.
"I mean, Pete Wentz just did the things that so many other people who came out of the punk scene just weren't willing to do because it was just looked down on, or people would have made fun of them, or whatever. But Pete launched his own record label, Decaydance, and he kind of viewed himself as kind of a Jay-Z, but a punk rock, in the sense that he went out and scouted out other artists that he wanted to build and turned them into the next versions of his thing. You know, Fall Out Boy brought on Gym Class Heroes and Panic! at the Disco in '05, '06 and helped blow up those bands.
WATCH | Official video for Sugar, We're Goin' Down by Fall Out Boy:
Pete Wentz even had a direct role in bringing Payne's book to life.
"In a lot of ways he helped make my book possible. The book really started because I got laid off from Billboard with a bunch of other people unfortunately in the early months of the pandemic in 2020. I had interviewed Pete a bunch of times at Billboard, but a day after I got laid off, I saw this email in my inbox and it says 'Pete Wentz,' and I'm like, 'What is this?' He had never emailed me before…. But he was just, you know, 'Hey, man, what's up? Just some words of encouragement,' because he saw I got laid off. And I had wanted to write this book for a long time, an oral history of 2000s emo, and figured in the back of my mind, 'I'm laid off now, why not?' So I just asked Pete about an interview, and he said yes. Shoutout to Pete because him agreeing to an interview was really what got the ball rolling for my book."
Emo music and the ensuing moral panic
With a rise in popularity for emo music, came a rise in concern from adults about what exactly the children were listening to.
"This is such a funny time…. I think just because so much of this language, it's like a youth code where heavy topics like suicide, depression, self-harm, things like that were like being grappled with in the music, but very rarely in a way that glorified it … Their music was a way out of it, or offering hope — a way that people could process these things and deal with it."
But some outside the scene didn't see it that way. A memorable moment from emo music's history happened in 2008, when The Daily Mail ran what Payne describes as "a really hateful op-ed" against the popular band My Chemical Romance.
"They [were] calling them a death cult, saying they encouraged suicide," Payne said. "And there was this protest of hundreds of kids, most of them young girls, who marched all the way to The Daily Mail's office in London and presented a letter of opposition, in support of my Chemical Romance."
While speaking with Payne for his book, My Chemical Romance's bassist Mikey Way said the band was familiar with the U.K. press and their coverage of the band's music.
"The kids stood up to it. The kids won," Payne said, recalling his conversation with Way.
"'The kids won' is absolutely the theme of emo and the evolution of emo," said host Elamin Abdelmahmoud.
You can listen to the full discussion from today's show on CBC Listen or on our podcast, Commotion with Elamin Abdelmahmoud, available wherever you get your podcasts.
Interview with Chris Payne produced by Stuart Berman.
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