Conclave is the pulpy Vatican thriller we need in this political moment

From the screwball antics of Anora to the papal intrigue of Conclave, movie-goers this weekend are spoiled for choice. 

On today's Group Chat we've got Radheyan Simonpillai as guest host sitting in for Elamin Abdelmahmoud. He's joined by the culture critics Teri Hart, Syrus Marcus Ware and Ashley Ray to give us their takes on the new Catholic thriller Conclave, Hasan Minhaj's new Netflix special and the craze around movie popcorn buckets.

You can listen to the full discussion from today's show on CBC Listen or on our podcast, Commotion with Elamin Abdelmahmoud, available wherever you get your podcasts.

Rad: So that's a bit of the trailer for Conclave. This movie stars Ralph Fiennes, John Lithgow and Stanley Tucci. They're playing cardinals who are circling each other during the very secret election process of a new pope. This movie is a pulpy thriller set in the Vatican. And it's the latest from Edward Berger. His last movie, All Quiet on the Western Front, took home a bunch of Oscars. So we have a good idea where Conclave is headed. Teri Hart, Ashley Ray and Syrus Marcus Ware — they're all here to talk about it. Thanks for being here, everyone.

You know, Teri, let me start with you, because you and I have already butted heads when it comes to this movie. If you listened to the TIFF in 12 podcast, you know that we didn't exactly see eye to eye on Conclave. But you know, this is your moment. Set it up for us? What is Conclave about?

Teri: Well, to be clear, you're wrong. I'm right. But, you know, most simply, it is what we heard in that clip at the beginning of the show. It is about the election of a new pope and about all the machinations, consequences and kind of self-interest that all of those cardinals come to the table with to try and get power. You can make correlations to any modern elections that we have in society now. But this is one of the oldest institutions in the world, and it plays like a thriller. I mean, you heard it right. It's got those big acting moments, the really serious monologues and all those crazy papal costumes, because those costumes are bananas. But that is what it is. It is squarely about the election of a new pope.

Rad: Well, OK, now for the people in the back, Teri, what is it that you actually love about this movie?

Teri: So I love all of the things that it is. I love a big Hollywood movie with those big speeches that can kind of make the hair on your arms stand up. Those moments in the theatre that you're like, this matters. And all those actors that you mentioned, Ralph Fiennes, I mean, he has never been better. I've never been a huge Ralph Fiennes fan, but in this I think he's just pitch perfect. Stanley Tucci is finally out of the kitchen and reminding us that he's actually a great, great actor. John Lithgow is perfect in what he has to deliver here. And I mention all the men, but Isabella Rossellini has a mic drop moment in this movie that I hope people recognize for what it is. And it takes her all the way to the Oscar stage for a supporting actress nomination. And, you know, I just like that it is pulling back the curtain on this institution and a process that they go through that the world watches. And yet it doesn't vilify the Catholic Church. That is not about my position on the Catholic Church. That is about me watching this movie and the success of what this movie is trying to do. And I think it delivers exactly on the point that the movie is making: what it's like to elect a new pope.

Rad: It's so funny because I feel like I agree with everything you're saying, but I somehow have completely different feelings about this movie. But that's a different matter. Syrus, you heard Teri talk about how this is about the church, but it's also an election. So obviously there are mirrors to our current politics. I'm curious to know, how do you feel about how this movie resonates with conversations we're having out there today?

Syrus: This movie is so fascinating because you get to see the behind the scenes politicking and organizing and, you know, agitating that happens in the behind the scenes of an election. So you have everything in this papal election. You have, perhaps familiar tropes where you have a bunch of the cardinals not wanting a Black pope to be elected and they make statements to that effect. What would happen if we had a Black pope? And they make their votes and they campaign and they negotiate to try to make sure that a Black person doesn't get elected. You have similar tensions around gender. These are very similar to what we're seeing in our electoral stage here in the broader social world where similarly there are people who are not sure that we're ready to have a Black president and a Black prime minister, a woman leading in leadership roles, very similar to what we see behind the scenes.

What I also love is the ritual of the electoral process. They put their notes down on a little dish and then the dish slips it into into this this vessel that holds all of the ballots and then the ballots are burned in the ceremonial way. And the smoke that comes out of the smokestack tells the townspeople. You know, it's a very ritualistic thing and it's very similar to what we do. We take our little piece of paper and our tiny little pencil. We go behind a cardboard — you know, we fold up our thing, we slide it — and it's a very ritualistic process. So, it's very similar to an electoral process that just happens to be one that's for the pope. But I think that the racism, the underlying oppression that is guiding who's making the decision about leadership is very reflective of what's happening with our electoral state. Even here in Northern Turtle Island, in Canada, with some of our Conservative and Liberal and NDP, you know, hopefuls really going to battle.

Rad: I love how invested you sound in that process. Ashley, look, this is a movie that could be seen as a sort of meditation on faith, right? Because you're dealing with the symbolic power of religion, but you're also searching for what is the practical function of religion in modern times and stuff. But I mean, all of this is also packaged in this, you know, slickly entertaining thriller package. Right? So I'm just wondering how much of this rang true for you?

Ashley: I do have to admit, I am a papal nerd — someone who took Latin for nine years and studied it in college. So I was on the edge of my seat, thrilled at how accurate they got this. I was sitting there like, your pronunciations are on key.... I thought it was so accurate to this nerdy thing that happens so rarely in one's lifetime that some people — I'm not Catholic, I just truly find the history of it so interesting. And this movie brought it to life for me. So yeah, I was nerding out when I'm like, "There they go with this seal on the door, this is it! And my friends, of course, are like, "We don't get why this matters." But it is so cool to me that they did really honour the realism and authenticity of this process. And what I thought was so great is how they brought in all the tension that does exist. But they bring in so much humour to me that you laugh in this movie in ways you don't expect. There's just so much tension that does get alleviated in these ridiculous ways. And I don't want to spoil it, but to me it's so perfect. And maybe because I am the American here, but I also just thought it was a perfect allegory for our current political situation. I feel like Stanley Tucci is playing this Kamala stand-in where you're just hoping she can get enough votes and just get this done. Lithgow is playing this Trump-like guy who you just don't want to see win. And we're so close to the election, I couldn't see it outside of that dynamic. And I still thought it was so well done.

Produced by Ryan Chung.