How Paul Schrader makes it hard to be a fan of his work

10:37The complexities of admiring Paul Schrader's work

Acclaimed screenwriter and director Paul Schrader, the mind behind films like Taxi Driver and First Reformed, has a new film out this week called Master Gardener.

The filmmaker has courted controversy over the course of his career for comments made on social media. It's gotten to the point that some distributors have asked him to step away from social media in the lead up to his film's release.

Culture writer Sarah-Tai Black joins host Elamin Abdelmahmoud to share their thoughts on Master Gardener, and whether the filmmaker's controversial statements over the years have affected their ability to appreciate Schrader's work.

We've included some highlights below, edited for length and clarity. For the full discussion, listen and follow the Commotion with Elamin Abdelmahmoud podcast, on your favourite podcast player.

Elamin: What intrigues you so much about Paul Schrader?

Sarah-Tai: Well, first off, I'm so glad that you had me on to talk about Paul Schrader, because apparently only white men can talk about Paul Schrader? I am such a diverse person with many interests, including this old bulldog man who is just shaking his fists at the sun outside on his porch all day.

Elamin: You contain multitudes, yes.

Sarah-Tai: But he also just has such a strong vision as a filmmaker, and especially as a screenwriter. I really share his interest in this kind of torn morality, this interest in what salvation might look like, if it's even possible. I adore the little elements of magic realism he's been using lately. I think he makes really complex films, really human films about people who are difficult and people that you can't really write off as one thing or another.

Elamin: Sarah-Tai Black stanning for Paul Schrader. What's your favorite Paul Schrader movie?

Sarah-Tai: Honestly, it depends on the day … but I've been thinking a lot about The Card Counter. It stars Oscar Isaac as this kind of low-stakes gambler who learned how to count cards while he was serving time in military prison for his role in torturing and abusing prisoners at Abu Ghraib…. He's clearly processing what it means to have done what he's done, and is now in this kind of self-fashioned purgatory.

Elamin: Sarah, the thing that's interesting to me is that he regularly makes these movies about the man in the room, [or] about the guy who's got a cloud kind of hanging over him. The new movie is Master Gardener. It stars Joel Edgerton and Sigourney Weaver. What's that one about?

WATCH | Official trailer for Paul Schrader's Master Gardener:

Sarah-Tai: Another very relatable character — Narvel, played by Joel Edgerton, is this really meticulous, Type-A gardener who tends to this huge estate that's owned by a wealthy, older white woman played by Sigourney Weaver. This woman, Norma, asks him to take on her great niece, who is a biracial Black woman, as a gardening apprentice. From there on, his very neat life is swung off kilter and he has to finally face his past — which is that he was a former white supremacist who turned on his white supremacist buddies, and despite also having done really heinous things, is now in witness protection planting roses.

Elamin: I mean, if I was going to be in witness protection, that's where I'd also want to be. That sounds like a Paul Schrader Avatar reveal. What do you think of Master Gardener?

Sarah-Tai: I think it's really interesting because when you look at First Reformed, The Card Counter and Master Gardener, it's like this trilogy he's been making, right? … He's asking us a bit more to over-identify with this character. I think why a movie like The Card Counter worked is because it was able to be a bit more objective. Like, we're watching this guy process these horrible things. He could be redeemed, he could be in purgatory forever. But with Master Gardener, it's a bit too happy; it's a bit too redemptive. I don't think anyone really wants to watch that kind of movie, you know?

Elamin: Specifically from Paul Schrader. Okay, we're going to get into his history of just saying things that people wish he wouldn't…. What's the most egregious thing that Paul Schrader said in public, do you think?

Elamin: The things that he's saying, they're mostly just bad, embarrassing opinions. But for me, when he was talking about the allegations against Kevin Spacey and how he would offer him a role unless he was found guilty in the court of law — that is the point where cringey opinions start to undermine people's experiences of harm.

Elamin: You and I have talked a bunch about trying to grapple with being a fan of an artist when their personal politics are not necessarily something that we agree with. You've been on this show talking about J.K. Rowling, for example. Where do you think Paul Schrader lands in that spectrum?

Sarah-Tai: I think J.K. is a good example of someone who desperately needs to be deplatformed — her IP is worth billions, and she's literally using her influence to make spaces that are trans exclusionary. I think a lot about like her trans exclusionary rape crisis center. Can you think of anything more evil than that? 

Whereas Paul Schrader is basically an old man yelling at the sun — someone who's letting all of his intrusive thoughts win. He's definitely had consequences for that, but at the end of the day, he's essentially the equivalent of that old white uncle at the Thanksgiving table who won't shut up. Like, you can turn it off. It's not like he's making Marvel movies. He's making very small-budget films shot in, like, 20 days.

Elamin: I desperately would like to see a Paul Schrader Marvel movie. That sounds great. You said that there's a regular mistake critics make, which is they try to make your feelings line up in terms of an artist's work and also their personal politics. Can you elaborate on that a little bit?

Sarah-Tai: I want to be clear that I don't mean separating the art from the artist, which I think is a super bad-faith approach, but I mean the ability to take what Paul is saying on Facebook … and synthesizing that alongside his films. I think that will be easier for folks with Master Gardener because it's not as good a film and it has those problems that he has in his real life.… A lot of it is like, if you want perfect morals, why are you coming to a Paul Schrader film? That's not what this is about.

Elamin: Yeah, or why are you going to art at all I guess, if you want nothing to be morally complicated? That's not really what art is for. I guess you could watch a Marvel movie; those are pretty morally uncomplicated. Earlier you said that the thing that you love about Paul Schrader's work is that he does give you these morally torn characters in search of some kind of salvation. Is he kind of doing that for himself with this trilogy?

Sarah-Tai: I think that is what he's trying to do. Is he succeeding? I don't think so.… In terms of his real-life behavior, I mean this has been going on forever and I think it will continue. I think whoever takes on the extremely laborious task of the reeducation of Paul Schrader, the person who finally gets through will have to be someone who's speaking and thinking in the way that Paul speaks or thinks. He's been in his spot on the ground for 60 million years. He's not going to move unless he sees something worth moving for, you know? So, it is what it is. Turn it off if you don't want to watch it.

Elamin: I appreciate that as a guide. I think that's generally a pretty good rule when I engage with grumpy characters who are just yelling at the sun. I love this description of him being an old bulldog. I'm definitely going to watch this movie.

You can listen to the full discussion from today's show on CBC Listen or on our podcast, Commotion with Elamin Abdelmahmoud, available wherever you get your podcasts.

Interview with Sarah-Tai Black produced by Ty Callender.