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The Canada Reads 2024 Day Two Transcript

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Opening

ANNOUNCER: This is a CBC special presentation.

ALI HASSAN: [tense, pulsing beat] It's Day Two, the great Canadian book debate. We said goodbye to the first title yesterday, and another book must go today. Which one will it be? Get ready to find out. I'm your host, Ali Hassan. This is Canada Reads.

[heavy rock theme]

ANNOUNCER: This is Canada Reads. Canada's annual title fight.

ALI HASSAN: Hello, Canada! We're searching for the one book that will carry us forward. Who are the panellists joining me on this mission? Let's find out. [game show music] To my left, former mayor of Calgary, Naheed Nenshi. Hello, Naheed.

NAHEED NENSHI: Hey.

ALI HASSAN: Next to him, actor and TIFF rising star Kudakwashe Rutendo.

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: Hello.

ALI HASSAN: Hello, Kudakwashe. Across from me, filmmaker and CBC Sports personality Dallas Soonias.

DALLAS SOONIAS: How's it going, man?

ALI HASSAN: Very good. Thank you. Next to Dallas, fashion and beauty influencer Mirian Njoh. Hello, Mirian.

MIRIAN NJOH: Hi. Good morning.

ALI HASSAN: Morning. And to my right, acclaimed poet and author Heather O'Neill. Hello, Heather.

HEATHER O'NEILL: Hello!

ALI HASSAN: You're Canada Reads 2024 contenders. [banging on the desk and pages turning] Day One of the battle of the books was the feeling out period. We had our first vote and our first elimination yesterday. In the end, it was a four-to-one vote against Meet Me at the Lake by Carley Fortune. It became the first book to be eliminated on Canada Reads this year. Mirian, you were championing Meet Me at the Lake. How are you feeling today?

MIRIAN NJOH: You know, it's a sad day for romance.

ALI HASSAN: I should let our radio listeners know that you, [Mirian Njoh laughs] not only is she saying it's a sad day, she is dressed in --

MIRIAN NJOH: Appropriately.

ALI HASSAN: In a black bride's outfit, yeah.

MIRIAN NJOH: It's a mourning period.

ALI HASSAN: It's a mourning period.

MIRIAN NJOH: Yeah. [Dallas Soonias chuckles]

ALI HASSAN: All right, well, before we move today, why don't you remind everyone why they should read Meet Me at the Lake?

MIRIAN NJOH: I would be so delighted. So, I talked about the merits of the romance genre and how it converts people into new readers. But I really wanted to take a last moment to highlight how Meet Me at the Lake specifically has enough substance to sustain even the most seasoned readers. This book is a catalyst for meaningful dialogue on mental health, anxiety, pregnancy, single motherhood, motherhood in general, womanhood and more. The plot has an even, steady progression from beginning to end, and the character arcs are fully realized. The author's note at the end provides invaluable context and depth into the characters' plot and the mind of Carley herself. It is an essential part of appreciating the story. The discussion questions at the end also provide guidance for how to explore the sensitive topics in the book and keep the conversation going beyond the story. This is a book for all levels of readers in all walks of life, and I still hope that all Canadians will give themselves the gift of experiencing it.

ALI HASSAN: Thank you, Mirian.

NAHEED NENSHI: So good.

ALI HASSAN: All right. Let's turn to the four great books still on the table. Mirian is our first free agent, and that makes her a bit unpredictable. I don't know if you're feeling unpredictable.

MIRIAN NJOH: I'm feeling like a wild card today.

ALI HASSAN: Yeah! Well, watch out, panellists! Mirian's support -- or lack thereof -- could change the game. [tense game show music] The remaining titles are Denison Avenue by Christina Wang and Daniel Innes, championed by Naheed Nenshi. Shut Up You're Pretty by Téa Mutonji, backed by Kudakwashe Rutendo. Bad Cree by Jessica Johns, chosen by Dallas Soonias. And The Future by Catherine Leroux, translated by Susan Ouriou and championed by Heather O'Neill. Okay, I said earlier that Day One was the feeling out period. Day Two means gloves are off. [Kudakwashe Rutendo laughs] Yes, Kudakwashe is wearing gloves, but the fingers are bare.

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: The fingers are free! Free and ready for drama.

ALI HASSAN: We're going to have four intense rounds of debate, and we're going to kick each off with an opening statement. You will get 60 seconds to, to tell us what makes the book you are championing the one to carry us forward. So let's get into it. It's time to debate.

[heavy rock theme]

“Denison Avenue” Debate

ALI HASSAN: We're going clockwise around the room for these debate rounds. Naheed, you are on my left. You are up first. You're championing Denison Avenue by Christina Wong and Daniel Innes. Set in Toronto's Chinatown and Kensington Market, Denison Avenue explores gentrification and the challenges of getting old in the city. I'm giving you 60 seconds. Why is Denison Avenue the one book to carry us forward? [Canada Reads bell]

NAHEED NENSHI: There are three major shifts facing Canada right now: immigration, ageing population, housing choice and neighbourhood change. And now, usually, these are the purview of talking heads on the CBC like me. But Denison Avenue addresses all of these issues through arts. Cho Sum's life may feel alien, but it's the story of our parents. It's the story of our grandparents. It's the story -- ultimately -- of all of us. And as Canadians, we have to grapple with some big issues right now. How do we make more neighbourhoods more welcoming to more people? How do we address issues of loneliness, isolation and mental health? Are we ready to truly grapple with comfortable Canadian notions of multiculturalism? Cho Sum's story is really small. It's the story of one woman battling through unimaginable grief to move forward. But the brilliance of Denison Avenue is that it's simultaneously really big about the issues all Canadians have to face to carry us forward. [Canada Reads bell]

ALI HASSAN: Right to clock! All right. Thank you, Naheed.

DALLAS SOONIAS: It's like he's done this before, you know?

ALI HASSAN: All right. Panellists, you've heard what Naheed said. What do you think? Mirian, let me start with you.

MIRIAN NJOH: Oh, okay! Well, you know, I've definitely taken in what he said this time, but also just generally. And I know that one of his, I want to touch on a couple of his arguments, and I'll also connect to what he said specifically. One of the biggest arguments that I've heard from, from Naheed a lot is that this book is going to break your heart. And, and it does. I found this book to be relentlessly gut-wrenching, honestly. It grabs your heart, and it leaves you with a lot of open wounds. Because, for me, it ultimately raises more questions than it answers. It doesn't, I feel like it doesn't even attempt to resolve any of the major themes it raises like gentrification, ageing population, elder isolation -- much of the things you just said here. And it just leaves us with the sentiment that this is a path we all must walk. I found that it didn't leave me as fulfilled as I would like my literature to.

ALI HASSAN: Naheed, your response to that.

NAHEED NENSHI: You know, I think that that is a very important point. But I would say that the, the line this is a path we must all walk is an important one. But what really moved me in this book was that towards the end, when we realize that she has settled into this new way of life, and the days become months and the months become years. And there's this wonderful scene where she -- about a year after the incidents that start the book -- where she's cataloguing her house and starting to clean up. And, to me, that is really the bit that was bittersweet but was showing that she is -- in fact -- willing to move forward. And The character of the young neighbour, Chloe really helps us see through a young person's eyes how she is able to move forward. So, it's not, it's not as a as as happy an ending as Meet Me at the Lake, for example. But I think that it does show us that even when there's bitter with the sweet, we figure out how to go forward.

ALI HASSAN: Dallas, what are your thoughts on that?

DALLAS SOONIAS: Well, if I can comment on both comments. I see the book ending, it's not, it's not tied up in a bow and you're not super happy. But that's kind of real life. And I, the way I compare it is not unlike Ocean's 11 -- the first film that came out in the '50s or something -- versus the first Ocean's 11. I know there's a whole bunch of them now. But the one back in the day, they don't win at the end. And everybody's fine with that. That's, that was digestible at the time. Whereas now, the fellas had to win. They had to make the heist happen. And I don't see it as a positive or a negative. It's more depending on the reader, is it going to be palatable for you? What, what ending do you want? I, again, I think it's a lovely book.

ALI HASSAN: All right. Heather, you can weigh in here on your opinion on Ocean's 11 or on the book. [Heather O'Neill and Mirian Njoh chuckle] No, it's great. It's a great reference.

HEATHER O'NEILL: Another time, we can discuss Ocean's 11 in depth. I would say, yeah, this book had a lot of wonderful strengths, but I was curious about the use of first person in it. Because the narrator's voice sounded very much, to me, it didn't sound like she chose to write in the I, but it did not sound like an elderly woman writing at all. It sounded like someone in their 30s writing a book. And she could have chosen third person intimate so that she, writing from the third person then she was seeing into the protagonist's eyes. Because all the vocabulary, all the sentiments were so of a millennial voice. And then, when it switched over to Chloe's first-person voice -- who was a child -- it was also identical. And that first-person voice of the child did not reflect the six- or seven-year-old. Again, she was using vocabulary that was incredibly modern and of a certain generation.

NAHEED NENSHI: That is such a great analysis. It's like you're a, you're an author or something. [multiple panellists laugh] And I think it's a fair point on Chloe in particular. But I actually had this conversation with the author because I read the first-person narration a little differently than you did.

HEATHER O'NEILL: Okay.

NAHEED NENSHI: And the reason that I read it that way is because here's a woman who struggles with English. And when she's talking to other characters, she's finding it really hard to articulate what's in her brain. But the internal monologue, you actually go, well, this woman is actually brilliant. She's observant. She knows what's going on around her. And we -- as people who don't speak her language -- would never interpret her that way. I thought that was a very deliberate choice on the part of Cristina Wong to say how you think this woman thinks and how you think she talks is not how she sees herself. And so, I said to Cristina, wow, she's brilliant, and you would never see her as being brilliant. Cristina kind of pushed back on me and said, it's not that she's brilliant, but I want you to be jarred by the fact that she is not what you expect. And I thought that was actually a smart move.

ALI HASSAN: Kudakwashe, I see you've been scribbling some notes to yourself.

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: Yeah. So, I had a couple notes from the whole round table that happened. I, the first one I want to touch on is Chloe. I kind of struggled a bit with Chloe in the sense that Chloe is how the book starts. And her perspective is how the book ends. But throughout the narrative, I felt she existed rather peripherally. Because the narrative really is about Cho Sum and See Hei. And I wanted that if the book was going to end on Chloe's perspective and her final thoughts, I would have wanted a bit more from her throughout the narrative. And I found it kind of lacked that. So, when she was starting the book and, and when she ended the book, I was like, I thought she'd be more present throughout the narrative was my, my big thing. And then another thing I struggled with -- which I also think was Denison Avenue's strength, ironically -- is I really love how experimentalist this book was. You know, like I said yesterday, there's a Bathurst wish list, citizen approval letters. But one thing I did struggle with is some sections of the book; they almost seem to harken to minimalistic poetry, just in the way that they're put in, like, a stanza format and short words. But what kind of, I'm an ardent lover of poetry, [chuckling] so this is just stemming from that. So, since I love poetry, the power of minimalist poetry is in its brevity and lack of verbiage. It's still able to portray this very dense story and, you know, using the conventions that it uses, right? And I found sometimes that it would harken to minimalist poetry but still be prose. So, I didn't see why it wasn't just written out in a sentence instead of broken up. And also, what that made me feel sometimes is that I was being led to a conclusion. Like, some of the stanzas would be, like, almost separated from the prose. There's this one expanse where she was saying that, like, I'm okay. I'm okay. Like, I am okay. And it was separated into a separate stanza. Like, it was following, like, a thought in, like, a prose kind of format. And then, it was separated into a stanza, I'm okay. I'm okay. And I felt like I was being led to something. Where the line was majestic, I would have clocked to it right away. But then, just a sentence, like, just it being separated, was kind of jarring for me. And I kind of noticed that a bit throughout that there was just different parts being separated. And for me, I was just wondering that if, to go to that extent, I would just like to have a bit more umph with it.

NAHEED NENSHI: Yeah.

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: And then, along the lines of the conventions. There's this one expanse, it had repetition, and it just says another day, another day, another day, alluding to the passage of time. But the difference between the two sections was that another day, the space between the words was just getting bigger. It was just another day on one line, another day, like, a space between another day, and then another day with a couple spaces between another day. But that didn't really work for me. Because I didn't really feel that in doing that, it was, anything was added beyond just the spacing. And it looks beautiful visually, but just reading it wise, I felt like it didn't add any more immediacy to the words just being written in prose. And it felt done stylistically, which is what I love about Denison Avenue. But I wanted more almost intentionality in invoking the poetic conventions.

NAHEED NENSHI: You know, I love that we're talking about this book in this way. Because it really highlights the incredible craft and skill of Christina Wong that we're actually getting to. Well, you know, how did you format that page? But I think a lot of these were intentional. So, for Chloe -- for example -- I felt exactly the same way as you did. You know, what happened to Chloe? But then I realized in my mind -- in my reading -- that Cho Sum has more people in her community looking after her than she knows. And she had to go through that period of great loneliness to accept the fact that there's this helper right next door. But the question on the prose and the style, I actually liked it because it challenged me to follow the rhythm in a different way. It's not poetry, it's not prose. But I think every word is very carefully chosen to put in precisely what she's trying to do in a bit of an experimental way. It is absolutely a little bit challenging, but I really enjoyed that juxtaposition [Canada Reads bell] of poetry and prose.

ALI HASSAN: We'll have to leave it there. That's it for this round.

[tense Canada Reads theme]

“Shut Up You’re Pretty” Debate

ALI HASSAN: All right, Kudakwashe, you're next to Naheed. That means it is your turn. [pages shuffle] You're championing Shut Up You're Pretty by Téa Mutonji. It's a short fiction collection about a young woman coming of age in Scarborough, Ontario. Sixty seconds are on the clock. What makes Shut Up You're Pretty the one book that should carry us forward? [Canada Reads bell]

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: Yeah. Shut Up You're Pretty is the one book to carry us forward because -- within it -- we see a challenge and confrontation to the societal expectations of women and female-presenting folk. Loli is a woman who -- from the onset -- is in touch with her sexuality. We see her engage with her sexuality within herself, but also within the relation of how her world sees outside sexuality. And through Loli, we see a myriad of experiences -- both good and bad. Yet, this experience -- especially the consensual and specifically the consensual ones -- are absent the cup of shame, where female sexuality is usually expected to have. And Shut Up You're Pretty also enables discussion on the importance society has placed on women to have aesthetic value. Loli's perceived beauty undeniably affects how she navigates the world in a way that is intimately familiar to women. We are expected to be sexually capable but not seek it. We're expected to be beautiful, but humbly unaware, walking this tight line of perfected, perfection rooted in one end in impossibility and the other, patriarchy. I feel Mutonji's writing puts towards this desperate feeling we women have struggled with, and gives us leave to witness a character in a way not often seen. [Canada Reads bell]

ALI HASSAN: Very nice. Thank you, Kudakwashe. All right -- panellists -- you just heard what could have had to say about Shut Up You're Pretty. What do you think? Heather, let me start with you.

HEATHER O'NEILL: Yeah. So, I guess I had some questions about you, and you probably imagined this, you know what I'm going to say. The interconnected stories and whether the way, I mean, they're put together so that you read them as though they're a novel.

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: Yes.

HEATHER O'NEILL: But I did feel at times as though there were threads that she never returned to that I really missed. And, and then, at the beginning, it was so rich in her life in Scarborough, in referencing her, the Congolese culture. And then, we sort of lose that where, and then, in the very last story, it's brought back. And then, when it comes back, I realized how much I had missed that thread in it. So, I was, maybe I had some issues with that.

ALI HASSAN: Your response to that?

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: Yeah, that, I think that's very fair. And also, like -- for example -- in the beginning, it's Loli's friendship with Jolie -- another kid in the neighbourhood -- is stressed, but then Jolie fades from the narrative, essentially. And with that, I think it's basically, it's an honest remark on life. I think -- oftentimes -- people who are closest to us, they fade from our lives without, without leave, without saying goodbye. And it's a theme that is recurring in the book. People leave Loli in the middle of the night. Theresa does. And people just leave her. She's used to being left. And I think it's a remark on that. That's how I saw it when I read into it. And on the community aspect, I think, in the absence that's had between the beginning, where you're surrounded by the lush community of Galloway, and then in the end, when you return to it, I think that the absence just really enforces that thirst for it. Because I feel like if it had, the lushness had been as present as before, and it gave leave to explore all the different aspects of Toronto. So you crave going back to this community. You crave that connection, that, that warmth, that chaos, the beauty of it. You crave returning to that. And, I think, a lot of it was feeding it to that.

ALI HASSAN: Naheed, let me ask you, you have the iPad out. You, what are your thoughts on what Heather has said and your thoughts on, on book?

NAHEED NENSHI: Yeah, I was just, I was looking up a quote as you were saying. And -- by the way -- one of the fun things about this year is, I think, three of the books have characters named Jolie.

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: Yes! [multiple panellists laugh]

NAHEED NENSHI: So, it's like, that Jolie, that Jolie, that Jolie. You know, I really am very similar to Heather on this front, which is that -- on the one hand -- I really enjoyed the fact that the short story format left all these questions. But I feel like Téa Mutonji was maybe being a bit too clever in all of this by leaving some cookie crumbs for us, you know? So, there's a reference to how there is an incident with, LolI and her brother Junior, which was the worst day of her life. And you never get back to it. I get it. I get that you're, the short story format leaves spaces in between. But I wonder if there were too many spaces. And, for me, the fatal challenge with the book is the space that's left in the relationship between Loli and her mother.

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: Oh, interesting!

NAHEED NENSHI: You never really understand what broke that relationship. Why was it so bad that Loli left in the middle of the night as people leave her? Left her mother right after the death of her father. And you never really get what irreparably broke that, that she would leave at a point when her mother needed her so much. And that is the one piece where I wish there was just a little bit more filling in of the blanks there.

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: Yeah. And my response to that is, I'm going to respond to it in parts. So, you mentioned that you think Mutonji was a bit too clever. And I find that very interesting because I think that one of, for the -- for me -- one of the strengths of Shut Up You're Pretty is that every reread I had, I discovered something new. And I think there are a lot of crumbs just amidst the whole narrative. And that's what I enjoyed about it. With every reread, I was discovering something. When, when Loli first meets Dylan -- and when they're talking -- she, they're alluding, like, to romantic interest when they're younger. And he's like, oh, like, like you're sweet. And then, there's an etc., etc. And then, in that blink -- in that etc. -- is what ends up in "The Boy From my Youth" where I'm just not attracted, like, I never pictured myself with a Black woman.

NAHEED NENSHI: Black woman, yeah.

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: And then, Téa also adds repetition with the and, and, and -- hearkening back to the etc. from before. And I found that upon a reread. Discovering these crumbs -- I think -- is a joy as a reader. You want to be able to look at a work and find that you can discover something new every time you read it. In terms of the relationships between the mothers -- I think -- within Shut Up You're Pretty there's tons of mothers within the story. So, you're balancing a lot of relationships. Loli had -- for example -- Mama, Mrs. Broomfield, there is Mama, Lisa Sugar, a bunch of mother figures in her life. So, I think when it comes to the exploring the themes of motherhood within Shut Up You're Pretty, I don't like to look at it as, like, one stagnant line because there's so many mothers within the story. There's even Olivia's mother. And in terms of why she left in the night, I feel it speaks on a remark of how we are sometimes, what we've been, what we experience. We soak in our experiences. That's why I always say that our past informs how we negotiate our presence, present. Loli was used to being left in the middle of the night, and that's what the people that she loved the most did to her. So, I don't think in her mind it was something that she, she was like, oh, I can't do that to them because that's what they did to me. In her mind, it's more people I love do this, and I still love them. So, it's not, it's not a grievous offence. If that's how the people I love treat me, then that's how I can treat the people I love.

ALI HASSAN: We have two minutes left in this round.

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: Yeah, of course!

ALI HASSAN: So, I do want, let me get -- Mirian -- your opinion on this.

MIRIAN NJOH: Okay. So, I'll try to be brief. For me, I know one of your major things about this is that it's a niche story, and it's a niche experience. And I heard it said to me, like, you know, it was never intended to go mainstream. And I felt like that was kind of a double-edged sword because now we are here in the mainstream format saying all Canada should read it. I'm very sensitive and compassionate to Black art. And I read it with that type of lens. And I recognize that its Black struggle, pain and trauma are really loud central themes here. And I had a hard time grappling with, you know, recommending that every Canadian should read this no matter their experience, sensitivity or exposure to Black people and the Black experience. And I know that you are very smart and articulate, and you would make an excellent reader's companion for this book, but you don't come with the book. [Kudakwashe chuckles] And that's the trick about it. People have to consume this and go through it unsupported and interpreted. And I felt like, will they have the tools to do it on their own with the text alone?

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: Yes. Okay.

ALI HASSAN: Forty-five seconds, absolutely.

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: Forty-five, let's do it. Okay, so you mentioned that it's niche. For me, that's a very interesting comment because -- I think -- when we're talking about the experiences of anyone -- whether they're from a marginalized community or not -- everyone individually is niche. My experiences as myself are not the same to another Black women's, as the same to yours. So, I think one when we try to regard it in a broader sense, every experience is a niche. But that doesn't mean that it's any less worthy of being brought to the table. In that it is a black story, it is worthy of Black. It's a Black story. I don't think you have to qualify whether it is universalizing or not. And in terms of mainstream -- because what I said was universalizing -- I think mainstream is different. I think it should be brought to all of Canada because, as difficult as it might be to read, these are real experiences. And just because they're difficult to read, these are real. Most of the comments has been that it's been [Canada Reads bell] read like a memoir. I'm sorry, can I just add a, and, you know what? It's okay.

ALI HASSAN: Yeah? All right. We have to leave it there.

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: Okay

ALI HASSAN: As we have two other panellists to get to it. That is it for this round.

[tense game show music]

Interstitial

ALI HASSAN: So, we've discussed two books that are still in the running. We have two more to talk about. Before we do that, why don't we take a little break, relax, stretch, get out your proverbial yoga mat and foam roller. We do have some notable words of encouragement for you.

SOUNDCLIP

[calming music]

JENNIFER PODEMSKI: I'm Jennifer Podemski. Dallas, I'm here cheering for you as you champion Bad Cree on Canada Reads. I'm going to watch you every step of the way. Your vision, your creativity and all of the things that you've been doing lately are just blowing me away. And I'm excited for you to bring your own storytelling to Canada.

KAWENNAHERE DEVERY JACOBS: Hey, this is Kawennáhere Devery Jacobs, previous Canada Reads winner. I have a message for the brilliant Kudakwashe Rutendo. I genuinely don't know that I've ever met anyone who loves books as deeply or as profoundly as you do. Soak it all in because it's going to go the lightning fast. And by uplifting this super-talented author of Shut Up You're Pretty, you will always, always, always be a winner.

[uptempo]

ANDREW PHUNG: Naheed Nenshi, it's Andrew Phung! One northeast Calgary kid to another, you're out here repping the Village Square Leisure Centre and taking on Canada's best. And honestly, I have no advice because I know you're going to absolutely crush it. I've seen you firsthand fight to make your community better. This is a book worth fighting for. And I've never seen you lose a fight. I love you, brother.

SARAH GADON: Hello, hello! It's actor Sarah Gadon here. Heather, you have made it past the first round. Congratulations. I am currently adapting your first novel -- Lullabies for Little Criminals -- into my first feature film. So, I know how brilliant you are. And I know what a formidable opponent you will be. Make me proud, Heather! And squash everyone else with your quick wit [several panellists laugh] and charming sense of humour. Good luck! [Heather O'Neill chuckles].

ALI HASSAN: That was actor -- and Dallas's friend -- Jennifer Podemski. Kudakwashe's Backspot co-star Devery Jacobs. Calgary's second most enthusiastic ambassador -- and Naheed's friend -- Andrew Phung. And one of Heather's biggest fans -- past Canada Reads panellist Sarah Gadon. And jaws dropped around the table when she announced [several panellists laugh] she's turning your book into a film.

NAHEED NENSHI: Amazing!

DALLAS SOONIAS: Well, I also have an announcement. Devery reached out to me; I just want to say.

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: Oh lord!

DALLAS SOONIAS: But I get that she didn't check it before. She has endless creepers -- I'm sure -- in the DMs. So, I'm sure she saw mine and was like, um-um, not that guy!

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: No way! Devery wouldn't!

ALI HASSAN: Okay, if that's the story you want to stick with, Dallas. I'm sure Devery is also giving you plenty of love.

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: I know she is!

DALLAS SOONIAS: Yeah, she was very positive. Yeah.

ALI HASSAN: All right, let's get back to it. I'm Ali Hassan, this is Canada Reads on CBC Radio One and Sirius XM. That is our break. Let's get back to the debate.

[heavy rock theme]

“Bad Cree” Debate

ALI HASSAN: All right, Dallas, you're next to Kudakwashe. It is your turn. You are championing Bad Cree. It is a horror-infused novel [pages shuffle] about a young woman haunted by nightmares after her sister's death. You have 60 seconds. What makes Bad Cree the one book to carry us forward? [Canada Reads bell]

DALLAS SOONIAS: Right, okay. I spent, like, three hours yesterday trying to figure out how to properly explain the through line in the book that starts at residential school, goes to the things that happen to my family and then specifically the character Mackenzie in this book. And they're actually all connected in a very real way. But then I realized I'm going to be alienating, like, almost all of Canada's population if I just stick to that. So, what I want people to know is that this book is about community. It's about, it's about understanding who your people are because they don't necessarily have to be your family. It can be the people you play Apex with across the world. Like, it, that's what really matters. And -- in that sense -- this book is about the collective and not the individual. And that's why it's the book to carry us forward, again, opposed to an individual forward. How much time I got?

ALI HASSAN: Ten seconds.

DALLAS SOONIAS: I loved you in Goon. I just want to mention. [several panellists laugh]

ALI HASSAN: Thank you. And, man, I appreciate that. I don't know what to do with that information. And I can't take a compliment.

DALLAS SOONIAS: Just take it, baby!

ALI HASSAN: Thank you very much. [Canada Reads bell] All right, Dallas. Panellists, you just heard what he had to say. What do you think of that? Let's, let's start with you, Mirian.

MIRIAN NJOH: [chuckling] Okay. I mean, okay, so I think for me, this was one of the first times that I've really heard Dallas dig in to, to the contents of the book itself, you know, in, in a more enriched way. I think that, and I really -- I think -- that's something that I would like to hear more from you. Because I know that in the past kind of discussions, you've leaned strongly on the fact that this is a Nêhiyaw story told in an authentic Nêhiyaw way. And I love that. But -- obviously -- I presume Jessica Johns is not the only Nêhiyaw author/artist doing that. And there could be arguments that, well, someone can consume any kind of Nêhiyaw art and have that need met. For me, what I really need to hear from you is I need to know why this specific book? Why specifically now? Relying on the text itself, you know, why is it the strongest and most timely piece of literature that all of Canada should read?

DALLAS SOONIAS: So, I was talking with my dad yesterday. He's 85, 84. How old is my dad? He's not young. He's not a young man. He went to residential school. His parents went to residential school -- same stuff on my mother's side. And what happened is if you have generations raising each other that aren't able to properly love, aren't able to properly take care of each other because they were taught the only way to survive is to isolate. You can't speak your own language. You can't talk to your sister, who's on the other side of the school. Or maybe you're pushed out of a second-floor window. These things happened. So, when these people came home -- if they survived -- then they can then, then they have, then they have kids. And you get generations in a family that it's dangerous and isolation is the go-to. It's the safe thing. So, you look at Mackenzie in this book.

MIRIAN NJOH: Okay.

DALLAS SOONIAS: When she had, when she had a loss in the family, she isolates. She goes, she leaves the family because that's what's safe. And it's only when she realized, well, a spirit basically says you got to go home that she goes home. And through communication with the family, she learns, okay, this is, this is how we find strength -- through the collective of our family. And I think there's a, again, it's, it's, it's, it's sugar with the medicine in the sense of together is how you overcome things. As soon as you isolate yourself, it's so difficult to deal with, with really heavy things. And people flounder. That's that rebuttal.

ALI HASSAN: Naheed, let me get you in here.

NAHEED NENSHI: You know, there's so many things about this book that I loved, and I could --

DALLAS SOONIAS: Are there?! Yeah.

NAHEED NENSHI: I couldn't get into some of the craft things, you know? Like, I think it's sort of the opposite of Shut Up You're Pretty, where Téa Mutonji leaves too many gaps. I almost feel like Jessica gives us too much detail. You know, I don't need to know which podcasts Mackenzie is listening to when she goes to bed every night. But I think both my biggest criticism and maybe the genius of the book are that when I was reading this book, I thought it was about something else. When I was reading the book, I thought it was about the things you're talking about, generational trauma, missing and murdered Indigenous women. And as I'm reading it, it's kind of a ghost story. And I love that she -- that Jessica Johns -- is playing with my assumptions of what I expect of indigenous trauma with something else. But on the other hand, I feel like if she's playing with those assumptions, I would have liked to see more explicitly some of the intergenerational things you're talking about. Because in the end, it's like Mackenzie has stepped away from a family that actually feels pretty functional. This is a story of women. The aunties are amazing. The mum is there, the kokum. The grandmother is a guiding spirit. And I just didn't get the themes that you're talking about coming through as clearly as in other contemporary Indigenous fiction.

DALLAS SOONIAS: I completely agree with you. And I think that's the genius of this writer -- Jessica Johns -- she knows what she's doing. What I just spoke about, that's heavy-handed stuff, and you can only do that so much. I don't like talking about it. It's always in my face. It's not like you can put it on the doorstep. It's in the kitchen, rattling the pots and pans all day, right? So, I think what she has done is she's done it not, not in a subconscious way. But these are the symptoms. It's not, she doesn't have to tell you exactly why because we know why. Because people like me, it turns out I won't shut up about it, no? And I argue the family isn't completely as functional as you think. There's, there's, there's... what would you call it? Not necessarily addiction, but, well, yeah, we'll go with, there's, there's addiction.

HEATHER O'NEILL: There's substance abuse.

DALLAS SOONIAS: Exactly! That's what, that's, that's what I was looking for. Substance abuse that we don't talk, we don't, in the book, it's not like we spend a chapter talking about that, but it's there.

HEATHER O'NEILL: It's there.

DALLAS SOONIAS: And that's, again, genius in the way she writes. Like, because she just has to come near the subject, and we know it's there, you know? And we're probably out of time. I'll stop.

ALI HASSAN: No, not at all. Heather, I'd like you to get in -- a couple minutes left.

HEATHER O'NEILL: Just about what you're saying, there is, there's a part of, you know, I had just, like, a few months ago, I'd been with David A. Robertson and Cherie Dimaline, who are two great Canadian Indigenous writers. And they were talking about Eden Robinson's laugh. And then, other people had mentioned it to me. They said, have you had an opportunity to listen to Eden Robinson's laugh? And I was like, what is it? She has a kooky laugh. What's the big deal? But then, actually, I was reading this book and it showed me, like, it revealed to me what they had been telling me over and over, that, that laughter is a certain form of language for Indigenous people. And it's a form of communication. And that was so revelatory to me that Jessica Johns was able to explain something that had been so thrown in my face and right there, the beauty of, the beauty of Eden Robinson's laugh, which kind of goes across the country and heals people. So, I thought that's when Jessica Johns was at her absolute best. And, but maybe for me, it was a little too fast-paced, like everything started being sort of in service to the plot.

DALLAS SOONIAS: Ah, like a snowballing.

HEATHER O'NEILL: Yeah.

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: I felt that, too.

ALI HASSAN: Kudakwashe, I'll give you the last word.

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: Okay.

ALI HASSAN: Yeah, I'll give you one minute.

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: I just want to pitch in. I found it interesting that Naheed said that there was too much detail because I didn't feel that way. And also, I did note that Denison Avenue does have chapters, just lists of detail. So, I was like, interesting.

NAHEED NENSHI: Yes.

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: One thing I did struggle with, though, is as a reader, I like to know that, like, what I see in the second, the first act is going to inform the last act. And with the Wendigo, it's only introduced just a little past the halfway point. That's the first mention of the word, and I wished that it was a bit earlier so that I, as a reader, could have felt more connected to the revelation, and felt like, oh, I was along the ride with Mackenzie, and it was an option, but we discarded it at the time. But really, it was that at the beginning where I didn't even have that opportunity because it's brought in a bit later. [Canada Reads bell]

ALI HASSAN: We have to leave it there.

DALLAS SOONIAS: I got notes on that! [several panellists chuckle]

ALI HASSAN: That is it for that round. That is it for that round.

[tense game show music]

“The Future” Debate

ALI HASSAN: Thank you. Mirian is sitting next to Dallas, but Mirian is a free agent, so we are going to skip past her. Heather, you're next to Mirian. That means it is your turn. You're championing The Future.

HEATHER O'NEILL: It's so funny. I thought, for some reason, I thought the show was over. [several panellists laugh]

ALI HASSAN: I don't know why you would think that at all.

HEATHER O'NEILL: I was like, the debate was over. I like, that went well!

ALI HASSAN: You might be forgetting what you're doing here! [Heather O'Neill laughs] Your book is a novel set in an alternate future of Detroit, where the French never surrendered the city to the U.S. Sixty seconds are on the clock. What makes The Future the one book to carry us forward? [Canada Reads bell]

HEATHER O'NEILL: What I think is really interesting about The Future is because there's been so many dystopian novels out, and most of them go upon the premise that without a government, with, when the city fall, or countries fall, humans will immediately begin raping each other, eating each other, just killing each other and just chaos will break out. And what Leroux has learned through her own research is that that actually doesn't happen. And in many situations, when there is a disaster, communities come together. People form, they want to help each other. It's the human impulse to come out and share food, make sure everyone's housed. And so, in this book, she's doing that and we have just this community, the elders building their little gardens. The Children taking on different communities. And, you know, and she went to Detroit, and it's an alternative Detroit. So, it's a place, [chuckling] watching your finger on the button. But also the idea of borders. I mean, I was listening to, I was reading something Waubgeshig Rice wrote a couple days ago. [Canada Reads bell]

ALI HASSAN: That's the bell. We'll have to work that in somewhere [Heather O'Neill chuckles] into your arguments.

MIRIAN NJOH: That is a cliffhanger.

ALI HASSAN: That is a cliffhanger!

HEATHER O'NEILL: I got so nervous because I was, I became entranced by the finger.

ALI HASSAN: I do that just so you know.

HEATHER O'NEILL: Yeah.

ALI HASSAN: In five seconds. All right, so you've heard what Heather had to say about The Future. What do you think? Mirian, you're really embracing your free agent role, I feel. You're like, this is what I need for you.

MIRIAN NJOH: I try, yeah.

ALI HASSAN: So, let me turn to you first.

MIRIAN NJOH: And maybe people will give it to me. Well, for me, one thing I noticed -- my biggest criticism about the book -- is that unlike the other books here, you know, you are championing a book for all of Canada to read that isn't even set in Canada. It doesn't feature Canadian characters, experiences, anything like that. And, you know, there's a plethora of characters that we're given here. And I feel like character development was an exercise in breadth over depth. We get maybe a handful of characters that we can get invested in, and then we have a multitude of characters that we are using a Venn diagram to keep track of. And I just want to know, you know, where is the, even when we get into the historical and the political background of, of Fort Des Trois, it's still not Canadian. And so, where's the Canadian connection besides the dual language and the author? How is this a uniquely Canadian story that all of Canada should read now?

ALI HASSAN: Heather, your response to that?

HEATHER O'NEILL: Okay. I mean -- first of all -- as a caveat, I don't think that books up for Canada Reads need to be set in Canada at all. I don't even think they need to focus a single Canadian character, as long as they're written by a Canadian. Because we have so many diverse writers, ones who are just arriving and many who want to speak to back stories. So, I refute that argument. [several panellists laugh] But secondly, to kind of go into it.

MIRIAN NJOH: As you wish [chuckling]

HEATHER O'NEILL: It is, it is, as I was about to say about Wabageshin Rice had said was that there's this invisible border that separates Turtle Island and doesn't actually even make any sense to any Indigenous people. And it's sort of in, in the world now, we're dealing with these borders that are almost arbitrarily drawn and have so much effect on people's life. But in any case, this is an alternative Detroit, where, I mean, the border between Detroit and Windsor is so, they're so close. So, it goes around it. So Detroit and this one is actually Canadian because Detroit does have some French, does have French roots. And I thought it was really interesting how there's, I mean, there's this root of French influence that goes all the way down, like, the East. You know, we have Jack Kerouac, who's, you know, French-Canadian background. And then, goes all the way down to Louisiana. And speaking French in all this part of North America was oppressed, and it was regarded as something that uneducated people did. And you are looked down upon. So, the French language was really, and children were told not to speak it and punished for speaking it. So,it kind of lost its way. Its has its, you know, its, its identity in Quebec. So, she's kind of playing with the idea if this identity had still existed in Detroit. And, and it adds a lot of, and it kind of shows, and she talks a lot about, and there are, like, the, the idea of the Nain Rouge, which still exists. And they have a huge festival in Detroit. This actually comes from French and Indigenous culture. And she tries to bring in the Indigenous roots and influences in Detroit as well.

ALI HASSAN: Okay, let me get your opinion here, Naheed.

NAHEED NENSHI: Well, you know, it's interesting because what Mirian said was actually my challenge of the book but exactly the flip side of it. Which is I thought we were in Canada, and it was never entirely clear that, are they speaking French because now they're Canadian? But your point is an interesting one, Heather, because I've got a lot of experience with what happens after disaster and how community comes together. And I have lots of thoughts on when that breaks down and so on.

HEATHER O'NEILL: Okay.

NAHEED NENSHI: And Wab Rice's book -- Moon of the Crested Snow -- is actually a book about emergency management and government when things break down, so I really identified with it. But my --

DALLAS SOONIAS: You're talking about the floods, right? You killed it. You did a great job, by the way.

NAHEED NENSHI: Thank you! But, and the pandemic and everything else. You know, I always say that Calgary's had six states --

ALI HASSAN: Enough with the compliments, Dallas, my god!

NAHEED NENSHI: Calgary's had six states of local emergency in its history. And -- lucky me -- I was mayor for all of them. Correlation does not infer causation. But my challenge with this book was I didn't really know what was going on. Because clearly, there had been a collapse in Fort Des Trois, but it wasn't a complete collapse. There was still a government. They just didn't have that many fire trucks. There were tourists coming and going on bus tours. The water still ran. And so, the question for me was, where's the federal government? Where's the provincial government? I know that's a very specific thing, but how has this one part of society collapsed in this way while government is still functioning? And so, it didn't go all the way to dystopian for me, and I couldn't figure out what was actually happening. And that was probably my biggest concern with the book.

ALI HASSAN: Heather.

HEATHER O'NEILL: Well, Catherine actually took me on a tour of Detroit, which was interesting because, I mean, I do so much research for books, and it's one of my, the great thrills of my life to go on these strange journeys that your books come through. And she brought me to meet a lot of people. So, in Detroit and, there was, you know, a great, what they were all referring to as the great white flight in 1967, where everybody kind of -- after the race riots -- immediately left the city to go to the suburbs. And just left as though it were, you know, they had days to leave. So that, Catherine went and talked to a lot of the people who were left behind. And she met she and she introduced them to me like John K. King, who had went around to all the houses and collected the abandoned libraries that people had thrown out. And he put them in this giant glove factory. Then you can go and go through them. And there was a man named Tyree Gurley, who has a thing called the Heidelberg Project. And we went to his house. And his entire house -- his entire block -- was abandoned. But he wanted to stay in his house. And his house, actually, on that block was a meeting point for the Underground Railroad, and its codename was Midnight. It's also beautiful. But he goes around and he collected all the toys and anything that people had left behind. And he made it into these grand sculptures. And you see throughout Detroit these community gardens in ways that they managed together to kind of, and they're still building it. They're building a new city together.

ALI HASSAN: All right. We're going to leave it there. [Canada Reads bell] That is it for that round.

[tense game show music]

Speed Round

ALI HASSAN: I know, I know. There's no, those notes will appear. We have two more days.

DALLAS SOONIAS: Fair enough.

ALI HASSAN: But if we don't, you know, there's no, no time to vote, which is kind of what this is about. [Heather O'Neill chuckles] So, we've heard a lot today about each of the books. It's quite a day -- great, great discussion. We're not fully done yet. I'm giving you last, one last chance to champion your book before we head into today's elimination vote. So, Naheed, one last chance to persuade the panel that Denison Avenue should stay on the Canada Reads bookshelf. Thirty seconds are on the clock. [Canada Reads bell

NAHEED NENSHI: I love today's debate. One of the challenges about Denison Avenue is that it's too good. And, you know, people just go, this is beautiful. It's a work of art. And I love the fact that we are digging into it a little bit today. But I think the nature of the debate that we had about Denison Avenue actually proves the point: that it is that good. That we can now look at stylistic choices, we can look at artistic choices and have differences of opinion on them. But we're able to do that precisely because Christina Wong and Daniel Innes have created this exquisite work of art that Canada should read. [Canada Reads bell]

ALI HASSAN: Thank you, Naheed. Okay, Kudakwashe, your final chance. Make a case for why Shut Up You're Pretty should not be eliminated today. Thirty seconds are on the clock. [Canada Reads bell]

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: Mirian brought up a great point that I wanted to circle back to, and it's that the idea might be too heavy. For me -- when I read this book -- a lot of these experiences happened to me. And sometimes, when I tell people about my own experiences as a Black woman, I'm told, no, that didn't happen to you. And people are made uncomfortable. But I'm like, just because something makes us uncomfortable doesn't mean it's any less worth hearing. And I think we should seek disruption. We should seek uncomfortableness -- especially from people in marginalized communities. Because as horrible as it might be to read it, it is just as bad to experience it. We've experienced these in stories from every different race and marginalized community, and I think we should make a commitment to continue to see them out [Canada Reads bell] and address them.

ALI HASSAN: Thank you, Kudakwashe. Okay, Dallas, you're next. You've got 30 second to convince your fellow panellists that Bad Cree should stay on another day on Canada Reads. [Canada Reads bell]

DALLAS SOONIAS: So again, it's one book to carry us forward. I feel as though -- in my opinion -- this book does the best job of bringing people together to overcome something. And it goes a step further that I don't think the other books do in bringing the land into it. And the animals -- the non non-human animals -- like the crows. And the, the characters are affected by the land. So, everything in this book is about the collective and moving forward.

ALI HASSAN: Okay. Thank you, Dallas. [Canada Reads bell] Heather, it is your turn. Please make one last argument that convinces your fellow panellists --

HEATHER O'NEILL: So many! But one thing that [Canada Reads bell] kind of addressed today, there's -- at one point in this book -- the children are telling each other fairy tales. And they're fairy tales we know, but they're all changed with the different, different, to reference their own background. And I find that's, there's, when you go throughout the world, all fairy tales, and you find them in different societies that have never had any connection with each other. Because storytelling is archetypal. There's something in us and we, yes, we dress it up in our own, our own metaphors and our own symbols, but they're all the same. And we all come together with this storytelling. [Canada Reads bell]

ALI HASSAN: Thank you, Heather. Okay -- panellists -- that is it! The end of today's debate.

[heavy rock theme]

The Vote

ALI HASSAN: You know the deal from yesterday. It's Time to vote.

NAHEED NENSHI: I don't know what to do!

ALI HASSAN: Panellists, you got your vote. You have your ballots in front of you. Please mark an "X" beside the book that you want to eliminate from the competition. Once you voted, Charlene from the Canada Reads team will take your ballot. I will remind you all, there are no secret ballots on Canada Reads. I also remind you that Meet Me at the Lake was eliminated on Day One. Which title will be the next to go? Will it be Denison Avenue by Christina Wong and Daniel Innes? Naheed Nenshi is championing that title. Will it be Shut Up You're Pretty by Téa Mutonji? This short story collection was selected by Kudakwashe Rutendo. Will it be Bad Cree by Jessica Johns? Dallas Soonias is supporting that novel. Or will it be The Future by Katherine Leroux, translated by Susan Ouriou? That title is chosen by Heather O'Neill. So, this was a moment of deep breaths taken at the table. And I, I would, I would challenge people who say, I knew it. I knew what was going to happen because I don't, I don't feel like this was very clear that anything was going to happen in any way. And I think watching you all vote, sort of shake your head, Mirian stroked her chin. [several panellists chuckle] Which is particularly.

MIRIAN NJOH: This is fun. This is fun.

ALI HASSAN: This is fun.

MIRIAN NJOH: Yeah.

ALI HASSAN: You have embraced the free agent role, and, yeah, well, the suspense is definitely there. I mean, this is, this is the moment. As I mentioned yesterday, people watch this, people listen for this. This is the time where people get a little tense themselves because they have also grown attached to these books -- people who have been reading it since the shortlist came out. All right. So, I have the ballots in my hand right now. Thank you, Charlene. Kudakwashe Rutendo, let's start with you. How did you vote?

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: Okay. I voted Denison Avenue.

ALI HASSAN: Okay. We have one vote against Denison Avenue. Naheed Nenshi, how did you vote?

NAHEED NENSHI: I voted against The Future.

ALI HASSAN: We have one vote against The Future. Heather O'Neill, how did you vote?

HEATHER O'NEILL: Right back atcha! Denison Avenue. [Naheed Nenshi and Heather O'Neill chuckle]

ALI HASSAN: Denison Avenue. With three votes counted here, we have two against Denison Avenue and one vote to eliminate The Future. Dallas Soonias, how did you vote?

DALLAS SOONIAS: I voted against The Future. Ha-ha!

ALI HASSAN: Why did you, why did you look at Kudakwashe?

DALLAS SOONIAS: It just made sense in the moment. [crosstalk]

ALI HASSAN: All right! Well -- my friends -- two votes against Denison Avenue and two votes against The Future.

MIRIAN NJOH: Oh wow! It looks like my role is quite pivotal.

ALI HASSAN: Mirian, your role is pivotal. [Mirian Njoh chuckles] Tell me, how did you vote?

MIRIAN NJOH: I voted to not resolve this at all because I voted for Bad Cree. [several panellist laugh]

ALI HASSAN: Bad Cree. So -- with that -- we have a tie. [a special theme].

MIRIAN NJOH: An elevated position.

ALI HASSAN: What does that mean? We'll turn to the Canada Reads rule book.

ANNOUNCER: We have a tie. The panellist who did not vote against either of the books up for elimination must break the tie. This is the case even if that panellist is defending one of the two books up for elimination.

ALI HASSAN: Mirian Njoh -- in case that was, you know, not clear -- you are breaking this tie. There are two votes against Denison Avenue, two votes against The Future. You are in the unenviable position of making a quick decision about which of these two books should be eliminated from Canada Reads.

MIRIAN NJOH: Oh gosh! This is very difficult. Let me take a minute. Just give me a second. Because I don't want to do this. I know this is a very important and impactful decision. Okay, [whispered] Denison Avenue, The Future. And I, the name I should say is who I want to eliminate?

ALI HASSAN: Yes.

MIRIAN NJOH: [whispered] Okay.

ALI HASSAN: The clock is ticking.

MIRIAN NJOH: Eeny, meeny, miny, moe.

ALI HASSAN: We are going black in under two minutes.

MIRIAN NJOH: Okay, Denison Ave.

NAHEED NENSHI: All right.

ALI HASSAN: Okay. And with that, Denison Avenue has been eliminated. [heavy rock theme] You were in here for the long haul, Naheed Nenshi.

NAHEED NENSHI: I was!

ALI HASSAN: And you just found out some information. And I, you know, we can go back and replay this 100 different ways. I don't, as I said, I really, I couldn't have called it. Let me, tell me how you're feeling about this? Again, we have maybe 30 seconds. But what are your --

NAHEED NENSHI: Well, I am just so happy that so many people have been introduced to this book. I think this book will stand the test of time as a true Canadian classic. And, you know, I joined Canada Reads because I'm one of those people who has let books leave his life and be replaced by screens. And I'm thrilled that I have started my reading journey again, and I hope others will. And I hope they'll do it with Denison Avenue.

ALI HASSAN: Very good. Thank you very much, Naheed. So, that is a goodbye to Denison Avenue. It joins Meet Me at the Lake on the list of, of books that have been eliminated from Canada Reads. So, that is, that is something. We are going to talk about this a little bit more. We're, we're saying goodbye right now to our radio audience -- live people on the CBC who are listening right now. But if you're online or if you're watching on television, we'll have a few minutes more with our panellists. [game show music] So, there are three books left. We have The Future by Catherine Leroux. That is being championed by Heather O'Neill. We have Shut Up You're Pretty by Téa Mutonji, being championed by Kudakwashe Rutendo. And Bad Cree, which is written by Jessica Johns and championed by Dallas Sonnias. Two days left. Two eliminations to go until we find the one book all of Canada should read.

[Canada Reads theme]

NAHEED NENSHI: I want to know your thought process! [Mirian Njoh chuckles]

ALI HASSAN: That is a wrap on today's debates. We're going to talk about what went down today. I think you are all ready to talk a little bit about what went down today. Mirian, I mean, unenviable doesn't even come close to describing --

MIRIAN NJOH: It was highly enviable.

ALI HASSAN: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You were ready for a lot of things today. Mindset --

MIRIAN NJOH: I wasn't ready for that, though! [laughing]

ALI HASSAN: Clothing. You were not ready for that. Nobody would be. Yeah, let me ask you, you know, I didn't have much time for you on the radio, but let me ask you, Naheed, your, you know, if there's a message that you want to offer to Christina, I know you became a big fan of hers as a person as well as an author.

NAHEED NENSHI: I really did, with both Christina and Daniel. And, you know, I was jokingly saying that when I told Christina at the beginning of this, I was excited to put a spotlight on this beautiful work. She was kind of a little taken aback and said, you know, I just want to change one person's life. And I said, good, let's sell a million books so that the odds of you changing one person's life are even higher. I mean, Christina and Daniel are incredible talents. Now, there's a good question. Which is, is this Christina's book? It's so much about her life and the neighbourhood she grew up in that I suspect there's going to be a lot more here. And I suspect a lot of the choices that you were talking about, Kudakwashe, are ones that will redefine how we think about prose and poetry and how we think about books going forward. So, I'm so proud of these artists, and I'm so proud that -- as I said yesterday -- it has been the bestselling Canadian book for four weeks in a row. And I just hope more and more people get to read it.

HEATHER O'NEILL: Can I say that because I didn't have a chance relate to talk about this book that much. But it is an extraordinary piece of writing. And I don't think I've read anything quite like it. And, yes, it has, whatever, all novels have flaws. That's why we like them. They like human beings. Otherwise, they don't work without flaws. But the way she works with lists and lists, I have never, I think it is the most incredible use of the lists in literature I've ever read. That she was able to put these lists together, and they worked as poetry, and I did not get bored. And also, just her capturing of Chinatown with all those little details and all the details that come up in life and that we're not supposed to value, and the texture of, of, of, the texture that living people leave on a city with all their little, you know, the, the banana peel stickers you take off and put on a wall. All those little things that we leave behind are poetry. And she just captured it in the book. And it was like, that's a magnificent achievement.

ALI HASSAN: Christina Wong, also a performer. And I think all these things come together, right? The poetry, the performance aspect and how she --.

DALLAS SOONIAS: If I may.

ALI HASSAN: Yes, absolutely.

DALLAS SOONIAS: If we have the time, as soon as the book got voted off -- which was very surprising to me -- I was, I thought right away of all the brilliant artists that died and then got famous. And she's still with us, you know? So, I'm so happy that that book has been doing so well and people are going to get to see her art while, while she still gets to appreciate it because she's obviously a genius.

ALI HASSAN: Mirian, you've had, oh, about two minutes to process what happened there.

MIRIAN NJOH: Yeah.

ALI HASSAN: Let me ask you what you --

DALLAS SOONIAS: Yeah, because it's fault. [Naheed Nenshi laughs]

MIRIAN NJOH: It's absolutely that, all my fault. Let's not forget who else voted for that book. So, anyway. Yes, it is. I would know that very well. So, but here's the thing. I think this is a beautiful book. And I will say I'm an audiobook reader. Of all the books here, this is the one book that I -- even with the audiobook -- I read it along with the physical book. I think the audiobook adds a whole nother level of texture because there's so many production notes where, that it's, you know, narrated by Christina herself, which she, it's like, and I spoke about this before. It's like Picasso explaining his blue period to you. It is another layer that I think is beautiful. I think this is a beautiful book. At the end of the day, it was a split-second decision that I didn't have the time to process. And when I thought about, and so for me, I, I said, these are both two great books. So, that's not what, what we're talking about here. And I looked at, so I looked at my panellists, and I looked at the way they defend the book, and their arguments, and how, and the strength of their arguments and, and how I felt like their understanding of the literature itself because we know these books are great. And that was what -- ultimately -- swayed my decision. But I think this is a great book. It's her first book. She has so much more to go.

HEATHER O'NEILL: And also, shout out to the illustrator.

NAHEED NENSHI: Daniel.

HEATHER O'NEILL: Daniel, yeah.

ALI HASSAN: I'm, 30 seconds, Naheed. Last, last comment to you.

NAHEED NENSHI: You know, all I'll say is read this book. And, you know, the best literary critic I know -- who happens to be sitting on my left here.

ALI HASSAN: That is not me -- by the way -- that's Kudakwashe Rutendo, yeah.

NAHEED NENSHI: Made an inexplicable vote today. [Dallas Soonias chuckles] But, you know, I think that what she talks about in terms of this book is precisely why you need to read it. You need to actually get it to it at that level of questioning those choices. That's how genius it is.

ALI HASSAN: Okay -- my friends -- we're going to have to leave it there. [tense game show music] That is a wrap on Canada Reads today. My thanks to our panellists, Naheed Nenshi, Kudakwashe Rutendo, Dallas Soonias, Mirian Njoh and Heather O'Neill. They will all be back tomorrow. We will see you then. I'm Ali Hassan. Until then, read on, Canada.

[heavy rock theme]

The Canada Reads 2024 Day Two Transcript

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