Note: Transcripts may contain errors. If you wish to re-use all, or part of, a transcript, please contact CBC for permission. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. Copyright © CBC 2025

AIH Tuesday July 8

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CHRIS HOWDEN: Tonight...

NIL KÖKSAL: Disorderly conduct, members of the Canadian military are accused of being part of an extremist plot. An expert says the case should serve as a clear wake-up call about growing anti-government sentiment and radicalization in the ranks.

CHRIS HOWDEN: The water recedes, the grief surges. Dozens of people are still missing in Texas. The Archbishop of San Antonio talks to us about the long process of healing ahead for the families and friends of the victims of the flash floods.

NIL KÖKSAL: Siren song, an army veteran says she can't stop thinking about the children who died at Camp Mystic and how an outdoor siren alert system might have saved their lives. So, she's doing everything she can to get one built.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Catching fire. Early detection is key to reducing the destruction done by wildfires a group of young inventors is hoping to help with a device that's shaped like a pine cone.

NIL KÖKSAL: The bottomless pit and the bottomless pet, a man falls into a deep crevasse in the Swiss Alps and is rescued thanks to the immeasurable courage and relentless yapping of his tiny dog.

CHRIS HOWDEN: And heart of grass. A groundskeeper at an English football club goes viral for his recent artistic designs on the pitch, created using the most delicate of tools, a riding lawn mower. As It Happens, the Tuesday edition, radio that likes its lawns like it likes its pie, a la mode.

[Music: Theme fades out]

CHRIS HOWDEN: The RCMP says a group, including two active Canadian military members, was trying to create an anti-government militia. Police say the men conducted training drills and shooting and survival exercises. Three of them, all in their 20s, have been charged with facilitating a terrorist activity. Another man is charged with the possession of firearms, explosives, and other prohibited items. The group allegedly planned to seize land they had scouted in the Québec City area. Barbara Perry has studied extremism inside the Canadian Armed Forces. She's the director of the Centre on Hate, Bias and Extremism at Ontario Tech University. We reached her in Oshawa, Ontario.

NIL KÖKSAL: Barbara, from what you've seen in what the RCMP is saying, how would you rate the seriousness of the threat if this kind of plan was actually taking shape and might've been carried out?

BARBARA PERRY: Yeah, this is very high-level, this threat, when we talk about the kind of arms that they had. Their willingness, they talked about seizing land, so their willingness to take land by force, if you will, suggests that, yeah, they were very willing to engage in extreme forms of violence.

NIL KÖKSAL: The amount of arms they had allegedly amassed. That's significant as well. What did you take away from that?

BARBARA PERRY: You know, often, far-right extremists in particular, and if we're talking about militia or if we are talking about accelerationists, they often talk about, well, you know, we're purely defensive and we're here to protect the nation from this invasion of immigrants or Muslims, and those are their two typical targets. This feels more offensive, you know, it's such a stockpile. And I think, again, that threat to seize land that is active and offensive and proactive and not just reacting to what they see as a perceived threat.

NIL KÖKSAL: And that allegation that they were trying to seize land near Québec City, how does that kind of a plan align with the kind of plots you studied?

BARBARA PERRY: Well, the seizure of land is an unusual one. So, that's why I think it must be connected somehow to ethno-nationalism, the attempt to establish an independent state or independent homeland. Many of the threats we've seen have been targeting institutions or individuals or groups or communities rather than that kind of seizure. So, I think that feels like that was a starting point for something bigger.

NIL KÖKSAL: Our CBC News colleagues have spoken to a colleague of one of the accused, Marc-Aurèle Chabot, who said he was concerned about comments Chabot allegedly made about the federal government, and specifically then-Prime Minister Justin Trudeau. Even with these charges and these arrests, should government officials, the Prime Minister, past or current, given that there could be a broader network, as there often is, with these kinds of groups, should there be deep concern and a scaling up of protections?

BARBARA PERRY: I think so, and it's part of a broader trend that we've been seeing in terms of politically motivated violence directed towards the federal government and in the States as well, state governments. We've seen some horrific acts of political violence there, and I think this is a ramping up of that. And yeah, I have no doubt that there are more people involved than just these four. And so, I think the risk is still there, and we should be very concerned about the safety and security of our political leaders.

NIL KÖKSAL: A report in 2022 from the military's advisory panel on systemic racism and discrimination found there were a growing number of Canadian soldiers who belonged to extremist groups. So, obviously, people will be surprised and worried to see these headlines, but should we really be surprised given what you've studied and what that report said?

BARBARA PERRY: There's a long history. I've been working in the area of right-wing extremism in the Canadian context now for probably 15 years or more, and for at least 10 years been considering that nexus between the military and right- wing extremism. So, there is a long history to this. It's not something new. I think that the level and the extent of threat, the intensity of the threat is what is something new for us. I mean, we have identified a number of individuals mostly through public access that have some affiliation with the far right, and you know, both in the regular military and in the reservists. I think we're closing in on 80 or so individuals. So yeah, it is a long and deep problem. The history in the Canadian context goes back even the Smully Affair. Uh, and in the U.S., I think the history is even, uh, even longer. It's part and parcel.

NIL KÖKSAL: And that 80 you mentioned, those are still active members of the military?

BARBARA PERRY: Some of them date back some time now. That's not just current. That is, I would say, probably over the last 10 or 15 years. So, some of them have moved on. Some have been asked to move on, if you will, through disciplinary measures. But at the time that we identified them, I think most were still active, again, in reserves or regs, although some of the were recent veterans as well.

NIL KÖKSAL: Should we though be, you know, our listeners be reassured that that this investigation had been going on for some time and that these arrests have come?

BARBARA PERRY: Absolutely. I think it does show increased monitoring of this kind of activity and the ability to identify early enough that they can intervene.

NIL KÖKSAL: We've had conversations on this program just over the last season with, with different guests about issues within the military recruiting challenges in particular, people may hear a story like this. I mean, it's, they would be forgiven for thinking, I mean what kinds of checks are coming? Are these, are they being weeded out? What kind of vetting is happening?

BARBARA PERRY: It's hard to say. I mean, this is something that we have been pushing from the beginning in our engagement with CAF is in particular to be paying attention to social media histories because that's where so much of this becomes evident. And there's been a lot of resistance to that. And I can't tell you whether they've overcome that resistance or not. But part of the problem, too, is that it's not just people are part of the movement and they're enlisting so that they can get that training, get that access to weapons, that's a part of it. But they're also people who are being recruited while they're in service. So, exploiting, perhaps, their anxiety as they're coming back from active duty or exploiting sort of the us versus them mentality of the enemy. And we need to protect ourselves from the enemy domestically, as well as, uh, you know, overseas. So, and then the third is of course, recruiting veterans you know the savvy groups are reproducing themselves or recreating themselves in line with what the military looks like paramilitary structures.

NIL KÖKSAL: Good to have you on the show, Barbara. I appreciate this. Thank you.

BARBARA PERRY: Okay, thank you so much.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Barbara Perry is the Director of the Centre on Hate, Bias and Extremism at Ontario Tech University. We reached her in Oshawa, Ontario.

[Upbeat chime music playing]

CHRIS HOWDEN: Five days later, there are more and more questions about why the flash flood in central Texas was so deadly. More than 105 people are dead and dozens are still missing along the Guadalupe River. Kerr County was hardest hit. That's where Camp Mystic is. The century-old girls' summer campus confirmed that 27 children and counselors are dead. Kerr County is also one of the areas in Texas that does not have an outdoor siren system to alert residents of flash floods. And people are asking why, including Nicole Wilson. Her kids were at a summer camp in a nearby county when the flooding happened, and she's now started a petition calling on the government to install sirens. We reached her in San Antonio, Texas.

NIL KÖKSAL: Nicole, I know your daughters weren't necessarily in direct danger, but I wonder even several days after this disaster hit, if the what-ifs are still rolling around in your mind.

NICOLE WILSON: Yes, and I want to clarify for sure that my daughters weren't at this particular camp. But there have been for my daughters as we picked them up early and they've had, especially my younger one, my seven-year-old, she's had a lot of questions about what if and we have a group of friends and my husband is very close to one of the gentlemen. And his daughter was at Camp Mystic and his son was at camp La Junta. Both of them are accounted for and back with their family, but they do have a family member, a young female who is unaccounted for.

NIL KÖKSAL: We had a guest on yesterday and she was describing who she was trying to, how she was trying to save people and then, the people she couldn't save and the families, the children. And I wondered how that, thinking of those, the children in those moments, how that factored in to you wanting to make this petition.

NICOLE WILSON: 100 per cent. My focus, of course, in my heart, while it was with everybody, was especially with the children. And we drilled into them that as parents, they're safe. And like before we dropped our daughters off at camp, it was very much a, you are safe. If you don't feel safe, you can go to the, you know, get to your counselor, go to office and call us. And even at home, right? Sometimes they have a hard time going to sleep at night and you have the conversation with them that you're safe, right. You have adults here, your parents are here. You're safe at school. You're safe. And all I kept thinking about, and I mean, I think I cried for two days straight as I'm sure many people did and are still crying, but those children that didn't make it to higher ground and did get swept away. All I kept imagining was in their heads and in their hearts, right? They're believing what they've been told, that an adult is gonna come save them. That wasn't always the case. And so I think that crushed me. To think about that, you know, I kind of told my daughter, you'll be safe at this camp. And this crazy natural disaster comes out of nowhere and my daughter isn't safe. And there's no adult around to save them.

NIL KÖKSAL: I'm glad they are with you and that they are safe. [NICOLE WILSON: Yes, thank you.] Nicole, as you likely know now, Kerr County officials did consider installing a warning system back in 2017, rejected the idea, ultimately, citing costs as a big concern. And we spoke to the owner of an RV park along the Guadalupe River. She said that the National Weather Service did issue a flash flood warning, came around 1:15 on Friday morning to cell phones. She told us those kinds of warnings are very common in Kerr County. Here's a bit more of what Lorena Guillen told us yesterday.

SOUNDCLIP

LORENA GUILLEN: There was no way for anybody to know. It was not the official's fault or the system's fault. It was just an act of nature that it was uncontrollable.

NIL KÖKSAL: Other people have been saying similar things. Is it possible that in this case, even if warning systems need to be improved or changed, that in this case, it was too quick and too severe?

NICOLE WILSON: So, I did watch her interview actually, and she's the sweetest and my heart really went out to her and I'm not one to point fingers at all. So, I do agree that no one expected this. So, even in San Antonio, we do have that flash flood warning, you know, try to stay off of this particular road or this highway. So, we do get those and definitely appreciate it. But again, if you own, if you have cell phones, you know, if you have technology with you, you'll get them and having been in the military as long as I was, risk management is huge. And you never ever only have one mitigation for risk. And in this scenario, I fully believe in this kind of three-pronged system. So, the sirens will be the first thing to go off, right? And they're programmed to, based on the level of water as it rises. The second thing they do is they send out the automated text and then, also, it kicks off an automated phone tree. But what I remember from a kid, which we sleep deep as kids and I've had multiple things happen at my house and my daughters have not like, even bat an eye in the middle of the night. Those sirens woke me up as like a six-year-old in the middle of the night, that's how loud they are. And... I fundamentally believe that if the sirens had went off, and they would have went off at a little bit earlier, I think, than the text, and also been more impactful because the sirens don't go off unless you need to take action.

NIL KÖKSAL: You are hoping to present this to the Governor, Greg Abbott, at a special session scheduled later this month. The Lieutenant Governor, Dan Patrick, was speaking with CBS News and said during that session he thinks they should talk about funding sirens. Other officials are also talking about improving cell service to the area. But does what the Lieutenant Governor, what he has said, does that reassure you and you hope that that there might be the kind of change you're looking for?

NICOLE WILSON: I would love to believe that. They've said no every time, and there can't be another no. And for me, that is the biggest reason for the petition. It's the biggest reason I want to present at least my testimony, if not some of the parents' testimonies, because there cannot be another no. And if there's a no, then I'll go higher than Governor Abbott.

NIL KÖKSAL: Nicole, I'm glad we could speak. Thank you for this. Please take care.

NICOLE WILSON: Yes. Thank you so much.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Nicole Wilson has started a petition to get an outdoor siren system for floods in Kerr County. We reached her in San Antonio. And we contacted Kerr county officials and Texas Governor Greg Abbott's office about her petition. A spokesperson for the city of Kerrville said in a statement that at an appropriate time, the city will quote, "examine all aspects of the response, including the alert systems in place to identify where improvements can be made," unquote. They also said that their goal is to learn from this tragedy and prevent such devastating loss in the future.

[Piano music playing]

CHRIS HOWDEN: Joe Mecke-Davis is an artist. His brush is a lawnmower, and his canvas is the pitch at the football, as in soccer club that he supports. Mr. Mecke-Davis does the groundskeeping at Westfield FC in Hereford, England, and that is where we reached him.

NIL KÖKSAL: Joe, you have a lot of people, really works out really excited about grass, this pitch, not a single football player on it. Are you surprised by how excited other people are? Clearly, you love grass.

JOE MECKE-DAVIS: Yeah, I thought it would go a little bit viral. I've had a few with like 3000 views and 3000, like, sorry, and 500,000 views. But this one's gone to a different level, to be fair. And it's, it's amazing to see how happy and how proud it can, a bit of grass could make people. Yes, uh. [NIL KÖKSAL: Yeah]. It's yeah, the response has been absolutely amazing from everybody. Everybody's loved it. So, that's my job done.

NIL KÖKSAL: Yeah, why do you think people have responded in this way that that happiness and pride as you, as you said?

JOE MECKE-DAVIS: It's a bit of a niche thing, you don't really see much of it, especially at the professional sports club, they're not allowed to do funky patterns, they've got to do straight lines, so not many people actually do it, so I just do it because I enjoy it, it's my break from the world as they say, I put my headphones in and get along and make some cool patterns to make people happy.

NIL KÖKSAL: It's meditative, therapeutic, you said as well.

JOE MECKE-DAVIS: It is, yeah, it is, it just, like I say, it's just you and the mower and some music and it's, yeah. It doesn't feel like a job, it was more of a hobby for me.

NIL KÖKSAL: For those who have not yet seen it, let's not keep them in suspense any longer. What does this work of art look like?

JOE MECKE-DAVIS: It's a bit of everything, really. It's got a bit of, a bit of crisscross, bit of straight lines, a bit of going around the centre circle. So, a bit of circles through the middle. I try to combine every sort of shape. So like I say, we got straight lines zigzags, we've got circles, we've we've gone a little bit of it's a little bit overwhelming. People say that it's going to distract the players. But from, from my height, you can't really see it. It's not until you send the drone up and see the, see the whole pitch that you can actually see the true pattern of it.

NIL KÖKSAL: When you do send that drone up, and get for yourself get to see, you know, are you hard on yourself or like nitpicking or you, are you just proud?

JOE MECKE-DAVIS: I always say that when you send the drone up, it either makes or breaks your heart because that's the only time you can see the whole pitch, so you can see if it's symmetrical or this line's wobbly or not straight, but no thankfully, it was all straight this time. So yeah, I did give myself a little pat on the back for this one.

NIL KÖKSAL: Bravo. Nicely done. It sounds like this, this particular pattern or mixture of patterns is sort of a best of Joe project. But how do you execute it? When you're on there, you got your headphones on, you're on the lawnmower. How do you turn the pattern into reality?

JOE MECKE-DAVIS: So, this, this one at the minute is, so I plan it all on an iPad. I've got a drawing app on my iPad. So, I sit at home and draw it out. That takes a couple of hours changing this, changing that, and then, go down to the pitch. So, it takes a bit of working out. It takes about an hour and a half. It took me about an hour and half to put the pattern in from scratch. And then, going over it takes about 45 minutes. So, it's not too long, but it's, yeah, the hardest thing is putting it in because you're scratching your head thinking, "Oh, where can I go? How can I do this?" Because it's when you're on the mower, you can't really turn on the pitch because wherever you turn, it will leave a stripe. So, it's, it's a bit more complicated than it looks. But you know...

NIL KÖKSAL: No, it looks complicated, it doesn't look [JOE MECKE-DAVIS: Yeah, it...] Like it's not complicated.

JOE MECKE-DAVIS: But to execute it, you've got to, for example, on that one, I do the two solid lines on the left and then, go all the way to the other side of the pitch, do the solid lines in the right, then you come into the middle. So, it's a bit all over the shot. But once I've done it once or twice, you kind of learn the route and that's, I say simple, but I've kind of got it down to a T at the minute.

NIL KÖKSAL: How long have you been doing this? How many have you done?

JOE MECKE-DAVIS: I've been on this pitch now four years. I'd say this is probably my fifth all-out big pattern. I tend to do one big crazy pattern a season in pre-season and then, during the season, during the league games, I go back to your conventional checkers but I'll add a couple of little small lines here and there just to make it a little bit different. But yeah, this is probably the the fifth big one I've done.

NIL KÖKSAL: So, it's all about the direction of the grass, but the measurements. That's what I couldn't wrap my head around. How do you, or do you just know how lines, it cuts?

JOE MECKE-DAVIS: I just know in my head, so the bigger stripes and the loops around the centre circle, they're all two mower whiffs. I kind of know the dimensions of the pitch in relation to the whiff of the mower, so you kind of work at it that way. And then for the stripes, the light is so the grass is pushed diamond towards you. So then, that becomes dark because it's not reflecting off the sky and then, the lighter stripes are pushed away from you which does shine off the sky which gives you the appearance of it being light and dark. It's always all the reflection that causes the difference in colour.

NIL KÖKSAL: The reality is though, grass keeps growing, there's flooding, I've seen photos of that. How do you deal with that, or is that part of the experience or the joy for you?

JOE MECKE-DAVIS: Yes, it's i--, the pitch is on a flood plain, so we've got to expect it to flood. It normally floods once a season, but last season was particularly bad. We had four major big flooding where it's over a metre deep on the pitch. So, last season, we had a pretty important game on the Saturday and then, it was flooded the week before, so I ended up spending most of the night down the ground with our pumps and all our tubes and hoses, getting all the water off the pitch, and then a seven-day turnaround to play a game, which unfortunately we lost. So, yeah. [NIL KÖKSAL: Well, not because of you, [inaudible] all ready to sleep there.] The effort was there, but I got the game on. So, that was the most important thing. Yeah, it used to get me down but I know what to do now with it and we just have to accept it.

NIL KÖKSAL: Do you ever compete in this art form?

JOE MECKE-DAVIS: Not really, there's a worldwide competition that I enter every year. I came second last year in the world. So, this pattern, part of the reason I've done the pattern so big this year, is my entry for the competition this year.

NIL KÖKSAL: A little key competitive, I think, too.

JOE MECKE-DAVIS: Hoping to go one better than last year and hopefully, get the number one spot this year, but we'll see. We should find out in a couple of weeks.

NIL KÖKSAL: Well, you let us know. [JOE MECKE-DAVIS: I will.] Joe, I'm really glad we could speak. Thank you.

JOE MECKE-DAVIS: No worries, thank you very much. Thanks for your time.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Westfields Football Club groundskeeper Joe Mecke-Davis in Hereford, England.

[Upbeat Latin music playing]

CHRIS HOWDEN: Yeah, so for the next thing, do we have like a triumphant trumpet sound or something like that?

[Saxophone and piano song playing]

CHRIS HOWDEN: This is more of a saxophone there is way too too erotic. Is there anything more heroic?

[One note from a harmonica]

CHRIS HOWDEN: Very heroic, it's a little brief though, do we have anything else?

[Sound of trumpets]

CHRIS HOWDEN: That's perfect. Yeah, that'll be great. So we'll just, we'll play that at the climactic moment. So, we're all set then. When do I, uh, when do I start talking? Oh, well, why didn't you, sorry, last Friday, an unnamed man and his friend were walking on a glacier in the Swiss Alps near the Italian border when a snow bridge collapsed beneath the man's feet, and he plummeted eight metres into a crevasse. His friend could not get him out. The man was able to reach someone via walkie talkie and that someone contacted a rescue team, but the team didn't know where exactly to look. All seemed lost. But in a statement, the rescue company described the crucial intervention that may have saved that man's life. Is the fanfares ready? OK, great. Quote, "Then a decisive moment, one of the rescue specialists spotted a small movement on a rock, [Trumpets playing] the Chihuahua," unquote. Yes, the Chihuahua, which some outlets are saying was not actually a Chihuaha, but a Papillon, which is a type of Toy Spaniel. Regardless, as I was saying, the Chihuahua, which is really a Papillion, was the friend I referred to earlier, twist. But of course, it couldn't pull its owner out. So, it waited next to the hole in the snow where he'd fallen and it shivered and barked, alerting the rescue team, which abseiled down, pulled the man out. And took the man and the dog they inexplicably mistook for a Chihuahua, but let's, let's let it go, to the hospital and everyone will be fine. All because that dog had an unspoken contract with its owner and honored their furball agreement.

NIL KÖKSAL: We are going to take a short break now. When we return...

CHRIS HOWDEN: A group on their way back to PEI from a deep sea fishing trip had a rare encounter with a basking shark, one of the largest and most mysterious fish in the world. [NIL KÖKSAL: Stay tuned, I'm NIL KÖKSAL:.] And I'm Chris Howden.

[Upbeat chill music playing]

CHRIS HOWDEN: It's been almost five days now since flash flooding hit central Texas. The waters have receded, but the numbers keep rising. More than 105 people are dead and more are still missing. Rescuers continue to scour debris, fallen branches, and uprooted trees along the Guadalupe river. And despite the odds, families continue to look for loved ones and answers. When families gathered inside a school gym in Kerrville to wait for news, Gustavo Garcia-Siller joined them. He's the Roman Catholic Archbishop of San Antonio. And that's where we reached him.

NIL KÖKSAL: Archbishop, we're certainly entering that phase that always comes after disasters where people are asking a lot of difficult questions about why things happen the way they did, about alerts and alarms. But when you're in a room full of people who are still at the stage where they're waiting to find out if their loved ones are still alive, how do you even start to make sense of what has happened?

ARCHBISHOP GUSTAVO GARCIA-SILLER: Well, when I was in that room on Friday, there was not too much talking. I mean, it was very silent, the place. A lot of young couples, also elderly couples, they were grandparents or aunts or uncles. And at that time, they were not asking questions and they were engaging in conversations. With the exception of a few of them that, saying to them, "Have you heard? I mean, are you here for someone?" And they were volunteering, "Is my daughter, is my son, is my grandchild?" Because the parents are on vacation and they drove him to camp or something. But people, they were not able to express their feelings. And then, I saw when they said the names, how they were outside the building of our school, meeting their beloved ones. And even though they couldn't express themselves, either. Even though they were grateful inside and you saw different kind of reaction, touching one another, embracing one another, kissing each other. Then later on, when I went back to the place, they spent Sunday there and I had a prayer mass and dialogue with families who have lost children. It was different because it was a context of faith. And so, they were able to express a little bit more themselves.

NIL KÖKSAL: What did they say to you?

ARCHBISHOP GUSTAVO GARCIA-SILLER: First of all, right away, please pray for my niece, my neighbour, my friend, my daughter. Some of them, they were families of people who work, but that has not been mentioned much in the news. People who work for the people who are in those camps, people who go and spend the summer in some trailers by the river, and have vacation, but the people who work in cleaning the places and facilitating the vacation, also they lost people and also, they miss people. So, it was more common ground on Sunday. But now that there are more people who have died, they have not entered into the new phase yet. And of course, no recovery for sure.

NIL KÖKSAL: There's still so many people waiting.

ARCHBISHOP GUSTAVO GARCIA-SILLER: Exactly waiting and those who normally, they felt community among those who were searching for their beloved ones. Now, they realize that the whole community and not only in Kerrville area, Kerr county, but in other cities and even beyond the state. And now, is something more larger than they thought, you know?

NIL KÖKSAL: What you said there, Archbishop, about how far this is reaching and what you said earlier in our conversation about who has not been talked about, people who also died in this, does speak to just how widely and deeply this disaster is being felt.

ARCHBISHOP GUSTAVO GARCIA-SILLER: Exactly. It's not just the tragedy itself, it's the consequences of the tragedy in the individuals, in the families, in the region, because some, they lost their friends. Some, their friends even don't survive, they're going through a trauma. And then spiritually, addressing your comment at the beginning, people they ask, you know, what is happening? Why this? There are no answers at this time. There are answers about trying to investigate what happened in the alarm and these, those things that they need to be addressed. But there are other levels. So, like in a few moments, we're going to have here with somebody else who will bring about the counseling peace and the spiritual direction. Because people ask, where is God in all this? Sure. And the cry of the people, the cry of the people. And we need to listen because when there is a cry, there is something behind the crying.

NIL KÖKSAL: When they ask you that, about where is God in this, [ARCHBISHOP GUSTAVO GARCIA-SILLER: Yeah], they're asking you and they're looking for answers, what do you say to them, Archbishop?

ARCHBISHOP GUSTAVO GARCIA-SILLER: I listen to the question. And in my experience, they start talking about more. They are hurting. [NIL KÖKSAL: They want to be heard.] So, silence. They want to be hurt.

NIL KÖKSAL: In 2022, you were on our show. You spoke to us after more than 50 migrants were found dead in an abandoned van. [ARCHBISHOP GUSTAVO GARCIA-SILLER: That's right.] You met with families after the Uvalde school shooting as well. [ARCBISHOP GUSTAVO GARCIA-SILLER: That's right.] All of these tragedies and disasters, all of those conversations and questions, how has all of that affected you?

ARCHBISHOP GUSTAVO GARCIA-SILLER: Well, it's clear to me even now in this new situation, it is not about me, you know, it is about them. And Uvalde was almost three weeks there every day and being present with people, something else happens and for me as a person of faith is when I truly see God work, but it takes time. And it's true, later on, months later, I totally felt it physically, emotionally, and spiritually. But I needed to assess that [NIL KÖKSAL: Right], you know? And it is what we are trying to help people and to be ready when they begin to articulate more, not just the crying to God, to us, to society, to the people who are in charge there, and if this is racing or not. All that has to be addressed, but there is something more, and it's what we want to facilitate, that that stage or that step will take place.

NIL KÖKSAL: Archbishop, I very much appreciate your time. Please take care. Thank you.

ARCHBISHOP GUSTAVO GARCIA-SILLER: Thank you. Bye-bye.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Gustavo Garcia-Siller is the Roman Catholic Archbishop of San Antonio, Texas. That's where we reached him.

[Upbeat music and ocean waves playing]

With any fire, early intervention can make all the difference. With a wildfire, the potential consequences of delayed detection are exponentially worse. With this year's wildfire season underway, strategies like satellite imaging, lookout towers, and drone surveillance are in common use, but there are still gaps in monitoring. And residents of remote areas in Canada and around the world are increasingly becoming their own first responders. Karina Gunadi wants to help solve that problem. And she's hoping a small and fittingly shaped device can make all the difference. She's a design engineer and a co-creator of the early wildfire detection system, "Pyri." We reached her in San Francisco.

NIL KÖKSAL: Karina, describe this device for us. What does it look like?

KARINA GUNADI: It looks a little bit like a futuristic pine cone. What it is is an early wildfire detection sensor that is passive, made of nature-based materials, so avoiding rare earth metals and lithium ion batteries. And how it works is triggered by an approaching wildfire, so a new wildfire that hasn't been detected yet, and that activates a signal send received by either communication towers or dedicated receivers that can then send really valuable early alerts to firefighters, communities. Whoever needs to respond.

NIL KÖKSAL: Esthetically, it was a choice that you and the team made to make it look like a pinecone. Why did you want to do that?

KARINA GUNADI: Yeah, so we look to nature for inspiration. I mean, it's been around a lot longer than us and has figured out really great solutions, one of them being pinecones. And so, it's not just pinecones; it can be other trees as well, but they have this natural adaptation called serotiny, which is a type of pyrosense. And I'm using big words here, but what that basically means is an adaptation that in fire, seeds are released. So, it's specifically actually looking for fire to clear out competing trees and really clear the space, create a fertile environment for new seeds to root and begin to grow.

NIL KÖKSAL: There are existing mechanisms to try to get at wildfire detection, as you well know, satellite imagery, cameras and drones, or manned aircraft to monitor these high-risk areas. Why do you think there's a need for a product like this?

KARINA GUNADI: Yep, there's a lot of solutions. And I think we're all working together towards the same goal. So, this is not to disparage those other solutions. But a lot of them require things that people can't do, whether that's the time to implement, the cost of it, the power and connectivity requirements. So, what we're trying to do is fill in those gaps. And I think everything is contributing towards a really resilient system that can detect these wildfires. And I think we all work together. And different solutions will be appropriate for different scenarios.

NIL KÖKSAL: Last week on the show, I spoke with two residents of Lytton, BC. This is the fourth anniversary of a fire there that destroyed so much. And people who live there are part of the first responding teams. You know, they have to fill up pickup trucks with water and, you know, get a call at a moment's notice. And these aren't, you know, long-time firefighters or, with lots of training. How do you imagine a product like yours if all goes well, this kind of device helping or changing things for places like Lytton, B.C.?

KARINA GUNADI: We're really focused initially on exactly the kind of community you're talking about. The people that actually have to respond to these fires that don't have the existing resources. And so, what we hope early response can do is really stretch those resources in the best way possible. And by that I mean, of course, there's a limit to how much manpower is available. So, you don't want that being spent on false alarms, you want it to really be a positive alert that they can go and respond to and contain before it gets too big and then, they're overwhelmed. So, I think that's really the difference we're trying to make here. And design is a huge part of what we're trying to do, and that includes service design, making sure that what we are creating is usable for these communities, integrates with the systems they already have, not just focusing on, you know, huge government or private corporations, but making sure that everyone can use the system.

NIL KÖKSAL: You've mentioned places such as Turkey, Brazil, California, in some of the publications around "Pyri." What have you learned or seen even personally in some these places that helped drive this work?

KARINA GUNADI: Yeah, so our founding team consists of a Brazilian and two Americans and we're both impacted, but unfortunately, that's not a unique thing. So many people around the world are impacted and I think what's really astounded us talking to people from all around the world, the places you mentioned, South Africa, Australia, Jamaica, they all face the same issue of not being prepared for the increase in wildfires we're going to see both in the intensity and the number. And my own personal motivation, of course, comes from being in an area that's impacted by wildfire; California is notorious for how wildfires have impacted it. And if we as one of the most wildfire-prepared places in the world still struggle to respond, that only highlights how critical it is to get better response in the rest of the world.

NIL KÖKSAL: There are patents pending for "Pyri." It's a for-profit company, as you well know. Why not make these detectors or the IP more readily available to communities dealing with this kind of issue?

KARINA GUNADI: I would love to create something that can be used by the most people and right now, the best channel we've found for that is through for-profit company. Right now, the devices aren't something that an individual would be able to make. There is still some manufacturing and technology that requires specialist skills to create the device itself. So, to have the capital to be able actually make these devices, we are currently structured the way we are.

NIL KÖKSAL: So, you're working towards field testing now. You've proven the technology in a lab setting. When might it be ready to deploy?

KARINA GUNADI: So, we're working towards demonstrations later this year and hoping for pilots, so these are larger scale actual implementations looking at fires next year. And then, our goal is to then be commercialized the year following, detecting fires, helping people genuinely making a difference in reducing the destruction that virus can have.

NIL KÖKSAL: Karina, thank you for this. I appreciate it.

KARINA GUNADI: Thank you.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Karina Gunadi is one of the co-creators of the early wildfire detection system, "Pyri." We reached her in San Francisco.

[Electronic music playing]

CHRIS HOWDEN: When it first started coming toward their boat, they were concerned because its fin was sticking up out of the water and because it was gigantic. But by the time the creature got to their boat, the mood had shifted.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: [Inadible] open.

DON GAUTHIER: Oh my god. Holy crap! Look at the size!

CHRIS HOWDEN: That was the moment a basking shark approach to group returning from a deep sea fishing trip, about a kilometre and a half off the North shore of PEI. Don Gauthier, whose amazement you heard in that clip, estimates it was up to 10 meters long. He says the encounter left him with a new appreciation for the ocean and its inhabitants. The CBC also spoke with professor of marine conservation biology at Dalhousie University, Boris Warm, about the rare sighting.

SOUNDCLIP

BORIS WORM: Well, the species is incredibly special because it's the second largest fish on Earth, just after the whale shark, which is also a filter feeder. They're special because they've adapted to a totally different lifestyle from other sharks, much like the whale. They're also a little mysterious because we don't really know a lot about them. We don't know how old they get, for example. We don't know how many they are. We don't know whether their population is going up or down. There's a lot of things we'd love to know about them, but they're just really hard to track. It's estimated that in our waters in the summer, there's somewhere between five and 10,000 of these basking sharks around. So, they are around, but to see them up close is a very lucky incident.

CAMRYN FARQUHARSON: Why do you think a shark like that would come that close to a boat?

BORIS WORM: It's really hard to say, but a lot of animals like humans are curious, right? So, if the boat said it makes an interesting sound, or they just don't know what it is, they may come and check it out. I was fortunate enough to snorkel with a basking shark in the Bay of Fundy 10 years ago, which is basically like being in the water with a dinosaur. Like, it's just as fascinating. And I found them quite skittish and easily spooked. So, they're certainly not a bold species from what I found. They're quite nervous about what's in the water, but I think on occasion, they can be curious, like whales often are as well, and they may check a boat out. Or it might just be that there's a great food pad right underneath the boat. Lots of plankton, maybe even attracted to the boat, to the shade of the boat, and the shark tries to filter feed on them. So, lots of possible speculations, but we don't know for sure.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Dalhousie Professor of Marine Conservation Biology, Boris Worm, talking to the CBC's Camryn Farquharson about the basking shark spotted off the North shore of PEI.

[Theme: Extro]

CHRIS HOWDEN: You've been listening to the As It Happens podcast. Our show can be heard Monday to Friday on CBC radio One after Your World Tonight.

NIL KÖKSAL: And you can, of course, also listen to our show online at cbc.ca/aih or on the CBC Listen app, or of course, wherever you get your podcasts. I'm NIL KÖKSAL:.

CHRIS HOWDEN: And I'm Chris Howden.

[Theme: Extro continues]

AIH Transcript for July 8, 2025

Social Sharing