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The AIH Transcript for February 17, 2017

Hosts: Helen Mann and Jeff Douglas

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

HELEN MANN: Hello, I'm Helen Mann.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening. I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight:

HM: Chilling development. A Texas lawyer says women are at risk after a client from Mexico asked in El Paso Court for help with an abusive partner only to be picked up herself by immigration officials.

JD: Just grab your gear and go. The Canadian outfitter Arc’teryx says the fight has only begun after it leads a big outdoor trade show to leave Utah for a state that is keener to protect its nature preserves.

HM: Cross purposes. A Minnesota man says that more asylum seekers have been asking him for advice on how to stay safe while making the long cold walk into Canada.

JD: Knock it off with the knock offs. Indigenous artists push for the passage of a bill that would make it illegal for non-Aboriginals to sell their cut-rate fakes as art and souvenirs.

HM: Sorry state of affairs. Nearly nine decades after he was convicted of hunting illegally, Nova Scotia pardons a Mi’kmaq chief and asks his descendants to accept an official apology.

JD: And board to tears. A Quebec man watches his car erupt into flames after attempting to free it from a snow bank using an innovative combination of his car's accelerator and a skateboard. As It Happens the Friday edition, radio that heard of skating on thin ice, but seriously… seriously.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: ICE domestic abuse, Utah outdoor show, Aboriginal fake art

ICE domestic abuse

Guest: Lucila Flores Camarena

JD: she went to the El Paso County courthouse to ask for protection against her boyfriend she said had attacked her. But she is the one who wound up behind bars. The woman was from Mexico. During the court proceedings, U.S. immigration agents showed up. And afterwards, they took her away. The woman's detention has shocked lawyers and activists in the state. Lucila Flores Camarena is the head of the family violence unit at the El Paso County Attorney's Office. She was one of the lawyers in the courtroom. We reached Ms. Flores Camarena in El Paso.

HM: Ms. Flores Camarena, did you have any notion when you went to this court hearing that the complainant, the woman asking for protection, would end up in jail?

LUCILA FLORES CAMARENA: I had absolutely no idea that that would happen.

HM: When did you realize something unusual was going on?

LFC: My staff alerted me that they had some information that maybe there were some agents up on the tenth floor looking for her.

HM: Did you see evidence of them?

LFC: Well, I was told that they were in plain clothes. So when I went up to the tenth floor I wouldn’t have been able to pick them out.

HM: OK. Now what did you see transpire?

LFC: I initially went into the court room. The attorney who presented the case came up to me and informed me that a gentleman that had been sitting behind me was in fact an agent, when I turned around he was leaving. Our applicant and her advocate walked out through the back door and went into the jury room that is adjacent to the courtroom. I followed them out there and saw that there was another gentleman sort of standing a little bit away from the door and kind of got an inkling that he might have been an agent as well. He was also dressed in plain clothes. And at that point, I was concerned that they might want to go into the jury room. We had other people there as well. So I closed the door to the jury room and went inside spoke to our applicant and her advocate for a while, informed the applicant that there were these agents there who were apparently looking for her. We, all three of us exited the jury room. The two agents were probably five steps away from the door they approached her, they identified themselves to her, they took out what looked to be badges and then asked her in Spanish what her name was and if she had documents to be in the country legally.

HM: Did you hear what she said?

LFC: She responded with her name and said she did not.

HM: OK. And what happened at that point? I understand you followed them some way?

LFC: Right. One of the agents placed his hand on her elbow and led her out. Her advocate was walking with them. I walked behind them and my attorney that had presented the case also walked out. At that point, they get on the elevators with our applicant and I get in with them.

HM: Did you talk to them?

LFC: I did. I introduced myself to them. The one agent informed me that there was some sort of federal investigation and that they had been tipped off that she was here — meaning at the courthouse on that day. We went down to the first floor. We exited the elevators. I walked with them almost as far as the first set of glass doors. They exited the building. I did not. I stayed inside and that was the extent of what I saw.

HM: Remind us of why the applicant was in court in the first place. What did she say happened to her?

LFC: She was alleging that her partner — boyfriend — had over a course of several months, been physically abusive to her. Kicking her slapping her, the last incident involved him threatening her with a knife.

HM: So she was seeking this protective order and she did get that order?

LFC: That is correct.

HM: Did the alleged assailant know she was going to be in court that day?

LFC: He was served with notice. So he did.

HM: Do you have any idea who turned her into the ICE — to ICE?

LFC: I suspect that it was the respondent because he really would have been the only person to know that she was there that day.

HM: How did she handle the arrest?

LFC: She was very composed throughout. She was very calm. She looked a little a little rattled as would be normal. But overall, I thought she was fairly composed.

HM: Any idea what's going to happen to her now?

LFC: Well, she's in detention in the El Paso County Jail. She has a federal public defender that is now representing her. So other than that I couldn't tell you at this point.

HM: Do you know if there are any outstanding warrants against her?

LFC: I do not know. Our office as a routine procedure, we do sort of a background check on our applicants and respondents. And at the time that we checked on her, she did not have anything.

HM: She has a criminal record. Is that something that may be playing into the actions of these officials I guess you don't know for sure?

LFC: I couldn't tell you.

HM: Have you ever seen anything like this happen before.

LFC: No ma'am, I have not.

HM: How long have you been doing this?

LFC: I've practiced law for about 18 years. Most of his 18 years dealing with victims of domestic violence and I have never seen this before.

HM: So no arrest of an undocumented complainant at a courthouse?

LFC: No ma'am.

HM: And you said you shut the door to that jury room. How concerned are you about other people in her situation. People who might want to make a complaint to police and might be living under similar circumstances?

LFC: Well, I mean that is the larger concern that this is going to have a chilling effect on that particular population and that they won't come forward to try and seek help. Because they might feel that doing so will put them in peril to being deported. That is a very real threat that batterers use especially cities along the border like El Paso. They keep them in these abusive relationships by threatening to have them deported. Call ICE on them or border patrol and certainly what happened last week. It really makes you think that you know these aggressors are going to sort of amp up their tactics and so it's a very big concern.

HM: So in the past you've been able to offer reassurances that that won't happen to these women?

LFC: You know you can never say for sure. But you know you could certainly say you know in all my experience I mean this is never happened. And up until last week, I felt fairly certain that it wouldn't. But that's not the case anymore.

HM: Ms. Flores Camarena, I appreciate you talking with us. Thank you very much.

LFC: Thank you.

HM: All right. Goodbye

LFC: Bye bye.

JD: Lucila Flores Camarena is the head of the family violence unit at the El Paso County Attorney's Office. We reached her in El Paso. You can find that conversation on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih. Today the Associated Press reported that the Trump administration is considering using tens of thousands of National Guard troops to help arrest authorized immigrants. The report is based on a draft memo obtained by AP. Chuck Schumer is the Democrats leader in the Senate. Here's what he had to say.

SOUNDCLIP

Chuck Schumer: There's speculation there's an AP report that says that they're considering. The administration is considering a 100,000 National Guard troops to round up the immigrants. That's despicable. That would be one of the most un-American things that would happen in the last century. And I just hope it's not true. The fact that it might even be considered is appalling.

JD: That was Democratic Senator Chuck Schumer speaking earlier today in Washington D.C. White House Spokesman Sean Spicer denied the AP report calling it quote, “100 per cent not true,” and quote, “irresponsible.”

[Music: Ensemble]

Utah outdoor show moves

Guest: Adam Ketcheson

JD: With its mountains, its vast canyons and rivers, it is no surprise that people flock to Utah to explore the outdoors. And it also makes sense that Outdoor Retailer, which is a huge bi-annual exhibition that has been held in Salt Lake City for the past two decades. But that is changing now. The show has announced plans to move the event out of Utah. The move follows pressure from outdoor retailers who oppose plans to cut federal protection of public lands. Adam Ketcheson in is the Vice-President at Arc’teryx, B.C.-based outdoor retailer. And earlier this month, that company announced that it was pulling out of the Outdoor Retailer show. We reached Adam Ketcheson in Vancouver.

HM: Mr. Ketcheson, how did you react when you heard the show's plan to move out of Utah?

ADAM KETCHESON: Well on one side, really proud of the outdoor industry and the fact that it is living up to the values of conservation and the values of our employees and our consumers. But on the other side, we're obviously disappointed because it's a sign that we were not able to impact the public policy we wanted to impact.

HM: Now you say you are proud of this decision. You had already decided as a company to pull out of the event earlier this month. Tell me how you came to that decision?

AK: It was a really hard decision for us. But we were influenced by looking at one of our pure brands Patagonia and the stand that they took around pulling out and boycotting the show. And we felt it was important to represent the values of the people who work in our company and the values of the brand and the values of our consumers. And we knew that we could support that effort by also boycotting the show. You know it takes big companies like ours to send a clear message to our industry and our consumer and our elected officials. So yeah we had already jumped out of it, but I was still hopeful that we'd find some sort of a resolution with the local government.

HM: What is it that Utah lawmakers plan to do to cut federal protection of public lands?

AK: Well there's sort of a couple of things, you know at a national level you know the Utah representatives have always been aggressive about trying to take control of federal lands to a state level. Some of the local things that they're doing is asking President Trump to rescind President Obama's executive order declaring a national monument. They're trying to shrink the size of the Grand Staircase Escalante National Monument. At a national level, they're trying to starve funding from federal land management agencies. They're pushing legislation to shift law enforcement from the Bureau of Land Management to enforce service to local sheriff's departments. So essentially allowing the state to stop the enforcement of people infringing on wilderness areas, so it has a lot of implications going on national from the public policy standpoint and that has a lot of implications at a local level specifically for the state of Utah. But the leadership in the state of Utah has really been you know some of the largest advocates in this process not just on local level, but on a national level.

HM: They don't seem to have any shame about that. In fact, they seem quite transparent in saying that this is land that could be improving the economy of the people who live in Utah and who elect them. What do you say to that?

AK: Certainly exploiting natural resources is an important part of our economies both in Canada and the United States. But I think you shouldn't under estimate the fact that two things. Number one that those lands are public lands they belong to all Americans they don't belong to the Utah government they don't belong to private companies. The second piece is that it is the outdoor industry is a massive industry in the United States. You know it's over 6.1 million American jobs are tied to the outdoor industry. You know it's well over 600 billion dollars in recreation spending that happen every year and a lot of that happens in specifically in the state of Utah. A lot of the economy is driven by recreation a lot of those jobs in Utah are driven by recreation. So we have to shift our mentality from looking at only things like exploitation natural resources are job drivers. But the industry is also a massive job driver as well.

HM: And in fact the show itself is said to contribute about 45 million dollars a year to Salt Lake City attracting 50,000 people. Do you think about the people who work in Salt Lake, who live there and count on this?

AK: You know I've been going to this show for 17 years and I've never met a person I didn't like from Salt Lake City. You know it's a really great community and it's full of really great people and they're a little bit caught in the middle. But the flip side of that is you know at the end of the day we can't in good conscience as an industry continue to economically support a state that is so actively trying to erode the values of the public land system, which is so important to our business and so important to our consumers.

HM: Yeah but you're a Canadian company with employees here in Canada. Do you think maybe you should be doing something at home instead of meddling in the affairs of another country?

AK: You know the U.S. is our biggest market. You know we have more consumers in the U.S. than we have anywhere else in the world. We are active in conservation efforts in Canada as well. We've never had to be sort of as public from a public policy standpoint. But this is a very sort of interesting time in the U.S. where with a Republican controlled Senate and Congress and a new President there's a lot at stake when it comes to protecting the U.S. public land systems. So it's sort of a very very unique moment in time and we feel very comfortable, we’re very aligned with our industry. It's important for us to support the industry it's important for us to support our consumers in the U.S. even though we are, as you say, a Canadian-based company. You know we're very very global in everything we do.

HM: The next Outdoor Retailer show is still going to go ahead in Utah. But when they are moved to a different state will you attend?

AK: That's a great question. I think you know like I said we'll make the decisions and take one step at a time. So when we have to make that decision. We'll be ready to do so, but we're not going to be in a situation where we're going to know where it's going to be for at least another six months. And at that point we'll be able to make that call.

HM: Adam Ketcheson, thanks very much for joining us on the show. I appreciate it.

AK: My pleasure.

HM: OK. Bye bye.

AK: Thank you.

JD: Adam Ketcheson is Vice-President of Marketing and Business to Consumer at Arc’teryx. We reached him in Vancouver. And if you'd like to hear that interview again, or know someone who might find it interesting you can share it. It’s on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Pop]

Aboriginal fake art

Guest: Gabrielle Sullivan

JD: They're advertised as “Aboriginal style” souvenirs. But Gabrielle Sullivan says that they're really just another form of stolen art. Ms. Sullivan is the CEO of an Australian artist's advocacy group called Indigenous Art Code. And she is one of the people behind the bill that was introduced in Australia in parliament on Monday. The bill aims to block non-Indigenous people from selling fake Aboriginal art and souvenirs. We reached Gabrielle Sullivan in Sydney.

HM: Ms. Sullivan, what kinds of things are we talking about when we say “Aboriginal style” souvenirs?

GABRIELLE SULLIVAN: We don't even really want to call them “Aboriginal” because they're not. They've got no connection to Aboriginal culture. We're talking about things like what somebody might call a didgeridoo, but it's not because it's just some bamboo or timber instrument from Indonesia that's got a mishmash of a whole lot of different Aboriginal style painted on it.

HM: So are most of these items coming from offshore?

GS: I'd say majoritye, but there would be some items which manufactured in Australia as well. But still have no connection to an Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander person or community. We’re mostly talking about items which are targeting the tourist market. So if you get off the ferry or you get off a cruise ship at Circular Quay down on Sydney Harbor you know a number of the shops in those locations, not all of them, but predominantly tourist target areas. So it's not so much an issue for the fine art end of the market. But it definitely is a major concern for items that are at a lower price point.

HM: One of the artist has been very vocal about this. How has her art been exploited?

GS: Many many years ago, we were talking decades ago, one of her works was actually reproduced on carpets which were made in Asia that copyright law can protect that. What we're talking about are items that have no connection at all to an individual artist's work. So it's exploiting culture because it's not real and it's a misrepresentation. But it's also taking away the opportunity for the Aboriginal artists who are creating the authentic work. It's taking away the space in the market for their work because it's very hard to compete with a cheap knockoffs.

HM: How would this bill help stop the selling of these fake Aboriginal souvenirs?

GS: The bill would stop selling. It would put the onus back on the people selling the work to provide proof. Now if you’re sourcing works from reliable, authentic sources. It's not difficult to demonstrate that the work is authentic. If you're purchasing items which are made overseas and not licensed to the artists or bear no connection to an Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander artist, you won't be able to or it will be very difficult to prove any type of connection to those artists. And we want those items which aren't caught because it's OK to sell them now because they're not claiming to be anything other than fakes. We want we want them to stop being supplied and imported into Australia, so that's what we're trying to catch.

HM: How have you and the Indigenous Art Code been working on this issue before the bill was actually proposed? Because this is something you've been working on for some time. What do you do to try and raise awareness about this?

GS: Working on this came about because artists were asking the Code and other art organizations to do something about all of the fake product. So the awareness campaign started mid-last year and it was really just highlighting the issue of how much of it is out there. And we had no idea that Bob Katter was going to rise a private members bill. We certainly didn't lobby Bob Katter to do this specifically, so we were quite surprised when he came up and said that he wanted to do this. It all happened extremely quickly.

HM: Is it true that you've actually had a sort of secret shopping initiatives to try and figure out who's responsible for some of this?

GS: Yes so last year to try and gauge how big the problem was. It wasn't so secret, but we did go shopping in some of the tourist precincts and I tried to un-know everything I know about the work as if I was just a consumer or a tourist. And we asked a series of questions for a shop that we went into and we asked questions like who is the artist? Where is the artist from? How is the artist remunerated for their work? Where is the work made? And sadly a number of the shops — or a majority of the shops — that we went to could not answer any of those questions. And then some of them were very honest and said that the work was actually created in workshops in Bali or Indonesia and that it's not made in Australia by an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander person.

HM: Your country is going to be hosting the Commonwealth Games in 2018, you already have plenty of tourists, but they'll be more pouring in. Given this is a private members bill you think it's any chance it will be passed into law by then?

GS: And anything's possible. The reception so far to the idea from government has been reasonably positive. There's definitely discussions going on, we really hope the government can work with us and other relevant stakeholders to do something about this. The only people that will lose out are the people that are misappropriating Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander culture. And you know they can either toe the line and start selling the authentic work, of which there is an abundance in Australia. Or perhaps they can start selling something else that isn't going too violate the culture of Australia's First Nations people.

HM: Ms. Sullivan, thank you for talking with us.

GS: Thank you Helen.

HM: All right. Bye bye

GS: Bye.

JD: Gabrielle Sullivan is the CEO of the Indigenous Art Code, an advocacy group for artists in Australia. We reached her in Sydney. And if you would like to share this story it is on our website: www. Cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Australian cultural]

Car mishap

JD: Nobody… nobody likes a backseat driver. But what is worse is a driver who is not in the car at all. Of course he can see that now. But at the time, a Quebec man thought he had come up with a truly ingenious plan to free his car from a snowbank. He was alone, so there was no one there to help him push the car out. There was also no one there to help him vet his ideas. And that is how he came up with what police later referred to as an “unorthodox method”. He would jam a skateboard against the gas pedal and then he would get out of the car and he would push. It worked great. You should try it. Here the Beatles drive my car.

[Music: Drivemy car/ pop rock]

JD: Just kidding. It didn't work great, not at all. According to the police report quote, “Unfortunately for him, the doors locked with the accelerator being pressed down,” unquote. The police spokesperson Martin Fournel elaborated on what happened next. Quote, “I'm not sure if the wheels caught on fire from spinning or if it was just the engine turning too fast and not going anywhere. So long story short the front end of the car caught on fire,” unquote. No one was hurt except for the driver's pride. I assume he thought he'd had a real inspiration. Then it crashed and burned.

Part 2: Minnesota border, Mi’kmaq pardon

Minnesota border

Guest: Omar Jamal

JD: It is a journey that comes with its own risks. As you have been hearing on the news, Manitoba has become the unlikely destination for dozens of refugee claimants fleeing the United States. In the last 24 hours, eight more people have reportedly snuck across the border on foot near the town of Emerson. Some have walked for hours in freezing temperatures with no proper winter gear. Omar Jamal is a member of the Somali community in Minnesota. He has been trying to persuade asylum seekers to not make the journey to Canada. We reached Mr. Jamal in Minneapolis.

HM: Mr. Jamal, what do you say to other Somalis who come to you asking for help crossing the border?

OMAR JAMAL: Well I tell them that it is a risky journey. It is freezing, it is very cold weather and it's very sad because sometimes they take children with them. I try to persuade them not to do it.

HM: What did they want to know when they come to you? What are they asking?

OJ: Well, they want to know about Canada. They want to know about options that they have. They are confused and some of them are thinking of going to Detroit, Quebec area through Windsor, Ontario. It's really very confusing and they are not well informed and we try to do our best to tell them that to go to Winnipeg through Emerson, is below freezing point and is very cold.

HM: How many people have come to you for input or help?

OJ: Well close to 20, more than 20, especially for the last month. The number for whatever reason is really going up. Mainly because we think the executive order issued by President Trump and the anti-Islamic rhetorical language is causing I think the number to go up.

HM: Are many of them people who have been in the United States for a long time?

OJ: Yeah, Ten years, five years, various you know they they've been here long enough. And some of them to make it even worse happen to be green card holders. And they're saying you know that’s it, I'm not going to sit around and wait for something to happen to me and we tell them you know it's better not to risk your life to the snow.

HM: How are people getting across the border from Minnesota?

OJ: Well, I think one has to remember this is a very desperate measure. This very desperate step and they are using any means of transportation available to them. Some of them are taking Greyhound buses from Minneapolis to Grand Forks in North Dakota and from there, they are renting a taxi you know paying taxi drivers to take them to the border. Some of them are asking friends to take them there. So last I heard per person cost is $600. And now because the numbers are going up, so did the price. Now it's $1,000 per person. And if this course of action and the concern goes on the way it is right now, I'm afraid to tell the Canadian government that they will see hundreds and thousands of influx of immigrants from their neighbor. And I don't understand why Prime Minister Justin Trudeau tweets the fact that he is welcoming immigrants and refugees all over the world. And at the same time having an agreement with the U.S. in place where Canada, because of the agreement, has to turn immigrants back to us.

HM: We're talking about the Safe Third Country agreement which would require anybody who wants refugee status to claim that status in the country where they arrive first. And in this case we're talking the United States.

OJ: Right, but the fact of the matter is the United States is not the United States that we knew before. The world is changing, so is the U.S. is changing. U.S. administration is very nervous. Immigrants are getting caught in the middle. International issues are going out of hand and you have thousands of thousands of immigrants in the streets of a major city of this country. Where do they go? Of course Canada is the first country that comes to mind. How do they go there? You can swim through rivers; you can walk through a freezing point in the winter. You might perish in doing so and die, but it's worth the risk. We’re telling them don't do it, but it's about time the Canadian government comes to realize that their neighbor is not the neighbor that they used to know. Things have changed.

HM: So you think that people in your community are seeing that tweet from the Prime Minister as telling them Canada's doors are open, come on in?

OJ: Yes, that is the work of the mob in every street and every coffee shop and every restaurant in Minneapolis, in Columbus, Ohio in New York in Seattle, Washington. People are afraid and people are saying Oh haven't you seen the tweet from the Canadian Prime Minister? We can go there. We can seek refuge there. But you know little they know that there is an agreement in place. So everybody was hoping when Trudeau came to Washington, D.C. last week. One other thing is he will bring up was that agreement, but he didn't. And now you have children, women not even dressed for the weather they dress traditional sometimes going 25 below zero weather. It's horrible. It's a very sad story. And I think it's about time somebody has to do something about this. Maybe the Canadian government has to take this issue very serious before women and children found dead in the middle of the snow near Emerson.

HM: Mr. Jamal, I really appreciate you taking us through all of this. Thank you very much.

OJ: Thank you very much Helen.

HM: OK. Bye bye.

OJ: Bye.

JD: Omar Jamal is a member of the Somali community in Minnesota. We reached him in Minneapolis.

[Music: Erev Shel Shoshanim / Jewish]

Blair on Brexit

JD: Tony Blair has a message for Britons: It's not too late to stop Brexit. British Prime Minister Theresa May says that she is forging ahead with the country's withdrawal from the European Union. It’s what the people voted for. But her predecessor, Mr. Blair, is urging people to push back. Here's part of what Tony Blair said in a speech, earlier today, in London.

SOUNDCLIP

TONY BLAIR: I want to be explicit. Yes the British people voted to leave Europe and I agree the will of the people should prevail. I accept right now, there is no widespread appetite to rethink. But the people voted without knowledge of the terms of Brexit. As these terms become clear, it is their right to change their mind. Our mission is to persuade them to do so. What was unfortunately only dim in our sight before the referendum is now in plain sight. The road we're going down is not simply hard Brexit. It is now Brexit at any cost. Our challenge is to expose relentlessly what that cost is. To show how the decision was based on imperfect knowledge, which will now become informed knowledge. To calculate in easy to understand ways how proceeding will cause real damage to our country. And to build support for finding a way out from the present rush over the cliff's edge. I don't know if we can succeed, but I do know we will suffer a rancorous verdict from future generations if we don't try.

JD: That was former British Prime Minister Tony Blair speaking in London earlier today about the U.K.’s decision to leave the European Union.

[Music: Chronicles of Sarnia/ Indie pop]

From Our Archives: Bruce MacKinnon

JD: He is one of Canada's most beloved and I would say best known political cartoonists. And today, Bruce MacKinnon was recognized for his craft with an appointment to the Order of Canada. Mr MacKinnon has been drawing for Halifax's Chronicle Herald since 1985, and he has artfully handled everything from the death of teenager Rehtaeh Parsons, to the Senate Scandal, to perhaps most memorably, the murder of Corporal Nathan Cirillo in Ottawa. Carroll spoke to Bruce MacKinnon about his tribute to Corporal Cirillo back in October of 2014. And here's part of that conversation, from our archives.

SOUNDCLIP

BRUCE MACKINNON: Well, you know the poignancy of the actual scene there. To have this soldier shot down you know unarmed, shot down right at the memorial the war memorial that he was he was guarding. That alone is so powerful. So you know that's all you can see really is these really strong images of war. And so it was inescapable it was just a matter of how to handle it? And so I had a good long look at a photograph of them of the monument and I thought you know how can I bring this to life? And that's essentially what it was to have the soldiers from the monument reaching down. One of them climbing down and actually aiding the wounded soldier and the others sort of gesturing as if to bring him up. So yeah, it was a little daunting because it was I was running a little behind and it was going to be a bit of a complex crowd scene.

CAROL OFF: And you're playing with iconic image I mean you can get it wrong right? I mean these are dangerous places for cartoonists to go?

BM: Absolutely, it's amazing how easily you can get it wrong. And especially there's so much emotion tied to this. Subtleties matter. People are going to go over this cartoon with a fine tooth comb because they're not just emotional. Many people are angry and they want an outlet and sometimes you know the cartoonist you know it can be a lightning rod for anger and grief.

CO: But you didn't go with the anger part. Because you could have been that these soldiers in the monument hunt down there the man who did the shooting. It could have been one of revenge or pursuing the person who had shot the soldier. Instead it was a gesture of help. It was a gesture of humanity.

BA: Yeah and it was a conscious thing on my part. You have to be so careful. Again what people read into what you say, I mean my family is you know is full of World War II and World War I veterans, we have a military background and I live in a Navy town. But I don't think Canadians by nature are a war-like people. We do what we have to do to defend ourselves. And it's important not to rush to anger and not to incite. It's important to try to you know see the humanity in every situation.

JD: From our archives, that was Carol Off in conversation with the Chronicle Herald cartoonist Bruce MacKinnon back in October of 2014. Mr. MacKinnon was named to the Order of Canada today.

[Music: Orchestral]

Mi’kmaq pardon

Guest: Jamie Battiste

JD: It took 89 years but, Grand Chief Gabriel Sylliboy has been pardoned. The Mi’kmaq died in 1964 with a conviction for illegal hunting still on his record. Last night, the Premier of Nova Scotia apologized to Chief Sylliboy’s descendants and to the Mi’kmaq community. It was an apology that the government had denied the Chief's treaty rights. Jaime Battiste was at the ceremony. He was part of a group pressing for a pardon for Chief sylliboy. We reached Mr. Battiste in Eskasoni, Nova Scotia.

HM: Mr. Battiste, what does it mean to you to get this pardon an apology for Grand Chief Gabriel Sylliboy after all these years?

JAMIE BATTISTE: Well, it means that the first person to stand before a court, Gabriel Syilliboy, our Grand Chief was right all along. To me it's about reconciliation. It's taking that first step in reconciliation that the province acknowledges that he had these rights. The courts have acknowledged that he had these rights and there was finally time that we un-tarnish his legacy. And the reason that I really pursued this was because it never sat well with me when I heard from people who were close to him that said that he went to his deathbed believing that he let the Mi’kmaq Nation down. And I think that by having the pardon and the apology that maybe his soul can rest at ease now.

HM: On a more personal level. What does this mean to his family?

JB: I was sitting next to his grandson George Syilliboy at the apology and when the Premier was talking about his grandfather and then the apology I could see his eyes watering up. And you know that kind of made me choke up and it was one of those moments that you know it was just an emotional moment for me. And I was just so happy for the family and for the community and the grand council members of the Mi’kmaq Grand Council there. They were all very pleased with that day and very happy to finally have the justice.

HM: What happened back in the 1920s that led to the chief's conviction?

JB: Well the Mi’kmaq always believed and asserted they had rights from the treaties provided by the king and guaranteed. And you know from generation to generation Mi’kmaq passed down that knowledge after finding these treaties in the 1700s. And basically a court took a quick look at it and you know Gabriel Sylliboy couldn't get a lawyer himself, so they provided one for him. And you know they didn't put much of a defense forward for him and I don't think any Mi’kmaq could have gotten justice in 1928 through the justice system, which was described in 1985 as being prejudiced and discriminatory.

HM: It's pretty shocking to read the language of the court at the time.

JB: Yes, yes. And you know it's that era and that racism that we no longer accept today.

HM: The Chief was hunting at the time. You say that the defense didn't offer much, but what were the grounds for the defense?

JB: Well, that he had a treaty or Aboriginal right to do what he did. Actually there's a great number of covenant chain of treaties that the Mi’kmaq have used and have proven in court from the 1752 treaty to the 1760. So he would have had all of these defenses and their constitutionally recognized rights. So the constitution being the highest law of the land would supersede any regulatory provincial laws that applied.

HM: And what were the lands on which he was hunting? Was it the location that was the issue?

JB: I don't know if it was that the location more of it that they really wanted to just charge. You know it was racism at the time. They didn't want Mi’kmaq to be there in the first place. So it would have been a non-Mi’kmaq who was complaining about these Mi’kmaq on his land and would have been a non-Mi’kmaq game warden who would have come in and warned them and said you know get off this land and our Grand Chief said no, we have a right to be here. And he said you know he was warned many times and said no. He took the charge and he stood up for people and you know he made a stand for our people and our rights. And unfortunately the law in that era wasn't able to provide him justice.

HM: And did that law set a precedent for other Mi’kmaq hunters in Nova Scotia?

JB: It absolutely did. From 1928 to 1985 Mi’kmaq hunted in secret. And we were told our treaties weren’t worth the paper they were written on. And so in 1985, that all change with the historic Simon case where they vowed their treaties were valid. So now we have you know these treaties recognized and the Premier and the Justice Department recognized that that was the language in that era of treaty denial. And they said you know we can't take back what happened. But we can definitely change the way it's seen in the history books now. Now, instead of seeing it as a great loss for the Mi’kmaq and an unfortunate case, we see it as a teaching moment for Nova Scotia and for Canada.

HM: After Viola Desmond, he is only the second person to receive a posthumous pardon in the province’s history. She of course is now a very notable Canadian. Do you think that this decision might mean more people learn about Gabriel Sylliboy’s story?

JB: Well, I certainly hope so and the work that I'm doing out of treaty education in Nova Scotia with MK, which stands for Mi’kmaq Kina’matnewey. We're really trying to work with the province to ensure that the provincial education system has more about who the MI’kmaq where, some of our role models, some of the people who are notorious in our history, some of our contributions and so you know this is this is part of a greater initiative called Treaty Education.

HM: Mr. Battiste, I appreciate you speaking with us. Thanks.

JB: Thank you.

HM: Bye bye.

JB: Bye bye.

JD: We reached Jaime Battiste in Eskasoni, Nova Scotia. He is Nova Scotia’s project leader for Treaty Education.

[Music: Rock]

JD: Dateline: Minsk, Belarus

[Music: Dateline thteme]

JD: This story provides a good opportunity for me to outline our unofficial policy here As It Happens vis-a-vis puns. Engaging in punnery is something we do unapologetically. It is part of our brand, but we pride ourselves on delivering quality wordplay by passing over the low hanging fruit with an aim to raise the pun to a respectable art form. And that is why I pledge to you, dear listener, to not employ the glaring pun opportunities. This story presents. In fact, I will go so far as to promise to eat this very script if I do. And so here are the straight up pun-free facts. A sports reporter for the Belarusian newspaper made good on his word that he would eat an edition of the newspaper if he lost a bet. Vyacheslav Fedorenkov, who writes for the Minsk-based sports paper Pressball wagered that local team, Dinamo Minsk would not make the playoffs in the Kontinental Hockey League. The KHL is an international league heavily dominated by Russian teams. But lo and behold, Dinamo Minsk prevailed. Forcing Mr. Fedorenkov to eat… to ingest his newspaper as promised and so he did. Along with a bowl of soup and a can of pop to help it go down. After which, he told reporters quote, I will be frank with you lads. Don't joke like this and don't make such promises because they are pretty difficult to deliver.” Took the words right my mouth the… end. All right fine.

[Sound: paper being ripped]

JD: Can I get a little water in here please?

Part 3: Samra Zafar feature interview, Basil Kirchin conference

Samra Zafar feature interview

Guest: Samra Zafar

Samra Zafar was just 15-years-old when she found out she was moving. Not to another house with her Pakistani family, but to another country to marry a man she had never met. She was taken from the United Arab Emirates to Canada, to live with her husband. She spent 10 years there in an abusive relationship before she finally was able to get away. Now, Ms. Zafar is launching a non-profit organization to help women rebuild their lives after they escape abusive relationships. She told her story in the latest issue of Toronto Life magazine. Samra Zafar joined Helen in the As It Happens studio.

HM: Samra Zafar, it’s good to meet you.

SAMRA ZAFAR: it's good to me to meet you too Helen. Thank you for inviting me.

HM: Oh, we're glad to have you here. Take us back to the moments when as a girl, you found out you were going to get married. How did you learn that?

SZ: Wow. It was it was quite a moment. I actually was in grade 10. I was 15-years-old. I came home one day from school and my mother told me that I have a marriage proposal that's just come in. I remember feeling shocked and just you know in disbelief I thought she was joking. I thought it was it was some kind of a joke because it just did not make sense to me and I was one of those girls growing up who I was just very ambitious. I was just dreaming about school, going to the best universities and becoming a professor or a doctor or something. And my parents knew that from day one, so I was just very surprised and shocked and I honestly thought it was a cruel joke.

HM: Had your parents encouraged your academic ambitions?

SZ: Yes absolutely, especially my father. My father, my father is no more, but he would always champion me and I would be at the top of my class and my father would be you know thrilled and he would congratulate and spread the news among his coworkers and hand out chocolates at his work. My daughter you know got this A-plus in this course and as I was growing up, as a little girl, he would always see to me one day my daughter's going to be a top student at a top university.

HM: How did they explain to you then their rationale why they decided to marry you off?

SZ: I feel like it hasn't made sense to me, but recently I've tried to rationalize it as much as possible. There's a huge amount of cultural pressure in the culture that I come from on girls marriages. And being the oldest of four girls, my parents were always given the feedback from the family and the extended family that oh you have four girls, you better start thinking about their weddings and girls are thought of as a burden. And even though my parents, especially my dad, was not of that mindset. But I can understand the pressures that were coming from the families and a lot of my friends around me you were saying oh, you’re the luckiest girl. Like you're the you're the one who's getting married first among all of us, so it was some kind of an amazing accomplishment? Not to mention you know just the fact that he was from Canada and since I was very ambitious and wanted to go to international universities and no girl from my family — extended family — had ever gone abroad to study.

HM: So tell us about your first meeting with your husband. How did that go what were your impressions?

SZ: It was a couple of days before the wedding. The entire family was around my family and his family. So I was told to just act shy and demure and look at my hands and not look up and not talk too much and not smile too much. I remember just sitting there I could not even fathom what was happening around me. And I'm just sitting there terrified. And then I glanced up and saw him and just thought to myself oh my gosh, he's so big.

HM: And he's 14 years older than you?

SZ: 12. So he was a very tall man and I think actually that was one of the reasons that his family even picked me because they thought oh he's tall, she's tall, they're good to look really great in pictures. But yes I remember looking up and thinking to myself that this is going to be my husband. I mean from a child's eyes, he looked as one of he was somebody who could be my father's friend. And in my mind I was like this this can't be… this can't be happening. But I had lost my voice at that time. You know I didn't I didn't have a voice.

HM: So the marriage went ahead. What did you know about married life as a 16 year old girl?

SZ: Nothing at all. I did not know about birth control. I did not know about what it is like to be married. In fact, I was told by my family, by my parents; just think you're going to university. Don't even think that you're going to get married. So in my mind you know yeah the marriage is just a ticket to university in Canada you know. And I'm going to go here and get to go to school and that's all I was thinking. Because that's all I had ever thought of.

HM: And had he assured you would go to school?

SZ: like his family had assured my family, but there was one time several weeks before the wedding that since the day that the wedding was fixed until the wedding day and throughout that whole three four months I used to have nightmares every night. And all those nightmares were around the fact that I'm stopped from going to school. So one night I woke up you know crying and sweating and my mother actually called him and. And then he talked to me for like two seconds. The only question I had for him was you let me go to school right? And he said yeah, I'll let you go to school don't worry about it.

HM: Then you arrive in Canada. You're supposed to be starting this new life and things were pretty different pretty fast?

SZ: Oh yeah, yeah. Like A: I mentioned in the article that I did not know about birth control at all, I got pregnant right away. And B: I was told that well you know you're pregnant now, you're someone's wife, you're going to be a mother, you should stay at home and look after the family. That's what good girls do. It doesn't even matter if you go to school or not right? This is the real purpose of a woman, you should consider yourself lucky that you've skipped all that school crap and come to the real purpose sooner. And yeah I wasn't allowed to go to school and I had my older daughter nine months right after I got married.

HM: You say that he became abusive. How did he treat you?

SZ: In the beginning it was mostly verbal. A lot of emotional as well like neglectful. The first few months were OK, but I think things changed as soon as his parents arrived as well to live with us. So a month before my daughter was born, they came over as well to Canada. And that's when that's when his attitude changed. So when my baby was born that's all I did was take care of the baby and no one helped me. He never even changed a diaper or made a bottle or anything, so you know I was this 18-year-old girl raising a child. And then not only that listening to all the verbal abuse and the name calling and you're useless, you're worthless, you don't deserve and then I would ask him why he would say that to me? It was like because you deserve it. And when you hear that on a daily basis you believe it, it becomes a part of you and those five years it completely tore at my self-confidence — at my identity. I lost myself, I lost my soul, I lost my voice, I just lost me completely and I didn't know what I was doing wrong. I just wanted to figure out and you know what am I doing that is so bad? Why do I deserve this? And no matter how much I tried, you know I would think to myself. Maybe if I wake up early or maybe if I cook better food or maybe if I you know iron his clothes better or maybe if I don't piss him off you know with that or this. But no matter what I did it was never good enough. There was always something that fell short. There was always something that was missing. And I internalized it and I thought that it's all me. It's all my fault.

HM: Did the abuse become physical?

SZ: Eventually yes. Yes it did. It started with things like throwing things at me. You know a pillow or a water bottle. And then eventually yeah it did and especially towards the end when I started speaking up. When I started university and started going to counseling. That's what I learned what's happening to me was abuse. And it was not it was not my fault. There's nothing I could do about it you know except for maybe to stand up to it. And when I tried doing that that I think he felt like he's losing control. And also I was accused of being corrupted by the Western society. That's the point where it got physical pretty fast.

HM: Before you went to university during the time all this was happening your parents were still back in the UAE.

SZ: Yeah.

HM: Did they know what was going on?

SZ: They didn't in the beginning. I didn't tell them because I didn't want to worry them. In my mind was like OK, there are three other sisters that need to get married. There's a certain huge sense of stigma attached to being divorced and a single mother. And people would say well don't even think about divorce because then no one's going to marry your sisters because no one would want to marry a divorcee sister. You know so I felt like I was I would have to sacrifice myself. And then also you have a daughter, who's going to marry her you know? So this whole notion about a woman's life purpose just getting married. It's just so ingrained that it's hard to break away from that. So my parents didn't know in the beginning, but then eventually I told them, yes.

HM: And you ended up taking inspiration from your father to get yourself back on track and to get your education finished at the high school level and go on to university.

SZ: I think I always had it in me. As a girl, I was always — even in school — like the one that was always pushing the envelope and breaking stereotypes. I started a girl's cricket team in a school where there was no such thing. I started a school newspaper and things like that, so I always had it in me. But yes, my father really did support me and I was actually I had decided that I will get a divorce and he didn't care about whatever anyone said. But when he passed away I lost that support and I was sent back to my husband because I didn't have a job or an education and you know no one in my family would have taken my responsibility. I was pregnant. I had a daughter already, but yeah two days before he passed away, I remember crying. And saying Papa, what if something happens to you? I don't know what I'm going to do? And he said daughter this fear in you is what I want you to get rid of. I want you to see the strength that I see in you. You don't need anyone, you don't need me, you don't need anyone else. You have it in you, you can do it. I mean those words will be my motivating force till the day I die. Because when I did come back to Canada after that, I just knew that now it's just me. I have to find a way to make it happen.

HM: And you did that while you were still in the marriage. You harnessed the strength to get to university and to begin that education while you were still living with your husband and his parents.

SZ: I was living in that house and just stepping back a little bit even during those first you know several years while I was being abused; while all this was happening. The one thing I couldn't give up on was my education, so I had been doing my high school courses through distance learning. Just sitting at home studying and going and doing the exams, so when my father died in 2006 and I came back and I was back in the marriage, back in the house. I finished all my high school and then I started babysitting and tutoring and I would supplement his income completely. But I would still see a little bit on the on the side every month and took me two — almost three years, to have enough for my first year tuition. And applied again to university,, got in again and that was quite a time because I had to put my foot down and say well I'm going to school. And then they were like well who's going to pay for it? I said I'll pay for it. I have the money.

HM: You're listening to As It Happens; we are talking to Samra Zafar. You finally got out of the marriage. At the time, you were going to university. You were juggling a life with two kids, multiple jobs, you're living in student housing, you're renting a room to a student in that student housing and you managed to be the top economics student at the University of Toronto.

SZ: the top student actually.

HM: The top student. And it's astonishing to think of what you were juggling at the time and being so successful.

SZ: Yeah and not to mention the two court cases. Because I was I had to take him to court for child support and everything and then there was a domestic violence case. And then all the cultural backlash that I faced. It was crippling.

HM: So how did you do it?

SZ: I was determined to prove to my daughters, to myself and to everybody who said I can't do it. That no, you know what, I can. So I just put all my energies into studying and I like if there's one thing it's going to be my GPA. So yeah I just you know pulled a 4.0 straight through and applied…

HM: You say it so casually.

SZ: And then the best best time of my life. Fourth your university I applied for this big scholarship at University of Toronto which is the top most prestigious award. A $17,000 scholarship that goes to one person annually from all three campuses and I won it. And it was just a huge reinforcement for me. And it just came full circle you know. And I think at that point I realized that I needed to start talking about this.

HM: Well in fact, you found the resources to recognize what you were going through to get some counseling while you were at university.

SZ: That's what enabled me to walk out of the marriage because I started university when I was still married. So I would sometimes skip class to go for counseling. And that's where I learned what was happening to me was abuse. And the first session I remember so clearly I was talking and as if the floodgates it open and then and the councillor, she just looks at me and says it's not your fault. And it's the first time anyone had ever said to me.

HM: what did that mean for you?

SZ: I was shocked. I looked at her and I was like what do you mean it's not my fault? And then I you know started learning about the cycle of abuse, these studies and the charts. And it all made sense it like oh my god how do you know this is happening to me? And then I realized it's not just me. It's something that happens to a lot of women and I'd come to a point where I knew that staying was scarier than leaving. Also I knew that I did not want my daughters to grow up thinking that being treated this way is OK, just because there are girls. And also very important for me was realizing that there's nothing I can do to fix it. There's only two options here: it's either leave or stay and suffer. So there's no middle ground where I can stay and improve things.

HM: I don't know how many people know how many women are in forced marriages or arranged marriages, especially at such a young age. Living in Canada right now and I know going public with your story you've been hearing from some of these young women — now some of them older I suppose. What was your sense of what they're going through and how common this is?

SZ: This is very common. It is in fact, you know it's shocking to me how whenever I go on stage and I share my story I have women coming up to me approaching me that this is happening to me to. You know my parents are pressuring me to get married. In fact, a few months ago I was speaking in an event where a very senior person at TDSB (Toronto District School Board) came up to me and said every year, we have girls that go back home after 11 — grade 10 — and they never come back because they get married over there. And forced marriages — arranged marriages — are one thing and then there's domestic violence you know. And that happens across cultures, across races and a lot of times people come up to me and say this doesn't happen here. It happens only in third world countries. And I’m like you know go on to Stats Canada and look at the stats. It’s one in three women will have faced in you know intimate partner violence at some point in their lives. And it's shocking that in a country like Canada — in North America — you know where we are progressive You've me you've covered so much ground. How come you know this is such a huge problem and what is even more mind boggling is how are there so many domestic abuse survivors and victims and there's so much silence around it?

HM: And now you’ve set up this non-profit organization. What do you hope it will achieve?

SZ: Well, my non-profit is around mentorship and support. So what I realized during my journey, as well as talking to countless of other women, was that there's a great deal of crisis support agencies that do really really well to pull a woman out of abuse. And I've definitely benefited from their support and advice and help, but the hard part comes after you're out. It's the time when I left and I had moved to university campus housing and I had no support. My community, my family, everybody had abandoned me. People wouldn't pick up my calls. I was told that I'm committing a sin by leaving and living alone. It was like walking in a dark tunnel and not even knowing if you're going in the right direction and hoping to God that there's light at the end of it. I would think I wish I had somebody who would just listen to me without judgment and hold my hand and just teach me how to walk. There are so many life skills and things that people take for granted around me and I don't even know where to begin. I don't even know how to pay my bills. That first year or two, I am incredibly grateful and indebted to the University of Toronto because the support that I got from there, my professors, my mentors, my peers; that was my family. Those were the people that helped me and that was how I benefited from mentorship. And I just want to be able to pass that along. Because what you need to heal from trauma and succeed in life — the most important — thing is human connection. And that's what I hope to do with Brave Beginnings.

HM: Through everything that you've gone through. You've had two companions along for that journey…

SZ: Yes.

HM: Your daughters. What did they think of where you've come?

SZ: They are my pride and joy. And I think what I did was mostly for them. You know I did not want them to have the same fate that I did. They are the most supportive children in the world. They are super proud of what I'm doing. They are so compassionate and kind and you know my younger one, she just tears me out because you have this empathy award last year at school because she helped a new student in her class with her English and her homework. And you know they asked her why did you do what you did? She was like I wanted to be like my mommy.

HM: That's wonderful.

SZ: And my older daughter, she's an artist and you know she does some really amazing work and she's been my rock. She was eight or nine when I walked out and I remember even before I walked out of that marriage. We would have these conversations where she would come up to me and say Mom, we can do this together. Don't stay here because of us.

HM: At nine?

SZ: At nine. And even after I walked out, there were times when I was so bogged down by everything that was happening and there were times when I felt like giving up and just going back. And she would hold my hand and say nope, you're not going back. We've come this far we're going to make it work and let’s take it one day at a time. So I don't think I would have been able to do what I did if it weren't for my children. They've been the biggest blessing and support system I could have asked for.

HM: Well, it's been a real pleasure to meet you and to hear your story.

SZ: Thank you Helen.

HM: Thank you so much for coming in.

SZ: Thank you so much for having me.

JD: Samra Zafar was in the As It Happens studio. Ms. Zafar is now an alumni governor at the University of Toronto. She works for the Royal Bank and you can read her story in this month's issue of Toronto Life magazine.

[Music: Ambient]

Basil Kirchin conference

Guest: Sean O’Hagan

JD: You've probably never heard of late British musician Basil Kirchin and that's OK, because most people have not. Yet his experimental music has been embraced by artists like Brian Eno, and this weekend, that music is the focus of a posthumous conference celebrating Basil Kirchin and his work. Mr. Kirchin began as a drummer, but in the 1960s, he turned the world into his instrument on one of his first ambient records. Sean O'Hagan was a guitarist and a songwriter with the band a Stereolab. He is now with The High Llamas and he is attending the conference in Hull, England. And that indeed, is where we reached him.

HM: Mr. O'Hagan, explain to us what was so revolutionary about Basil Kirchin’s music?

SEAN O’HAGAN: Basil Kirchin was an obscure British figure who achieved extraordinary things in the early ‘60s creating film-like music which also had a revolutionary element insofar as it foresaw minimalism. it foresaw experimental music. It foresaw tape-cutting. It foresaw all these genres and musical movements that we became familiar with in later years, in the 70s and in later film music. He did it in total obscurity and it's taken almost half a century for people to actually come to realize that this composer was as important as any of the bigger names in jazz and less in less extensive music.

HM: Now he used found sounds that he recorded. What kind of sounds are we talking about?

SOH: He would use street sounds, he would use people voices, crowds, he would use engines, the ambient sound of the inside of a restaurant. This is all familiar with us now, we know that there's nothing extraordinary about that. I think it was extraordinary in the late ‘50s and the early ‘60s. Also Basil Kirchin didn't come from an academic background. We can understand that coming from the conservatories of the world, but not from a guy who was in effectively a big band in the ‘40s and ‘50s playing fairly straight ahead big band music. He kind of released himself from that. He played in his father's big band and he moved and released himself from that a wanted to make music that was from another planet.

HM: Well in fact, he layered as I understand it, instrumental music over these found sounds manipulated them all. So it wasn't like it was all just you know experimental sound.

SOH: Absolutely not. No he loved melody and he loved chords he loved harmony. Sometimes he’d create music that challenging, that was non-harmonic. A lot of the time the great music was very beautiful and had a filmic element. But within the filmic element there was always something odd or something strange something slightly peculiar. We're not talking about lift music here. We're talking about something truly bizarre.

HM: In fact, you know it's interesting you describe it as filmic, you talk about bizarre. He scored a number of films in that sort of horror genre and yet he's not really known by many people outside of the music industry. Why don't people know his work more?

SOH: I don't know. It's an odd one. It might be down to his personality. He couldn’t be seen as a chap who got out there and embraced the scene. I think we know about the people who put themselves out there. Who made sure their names were there. At any one time I believe when you have a movement, you know an art movement, a movement in film. Usually there isn’t just one person doing it. Usually there’s several people throughout the world. We know that I mean for instance we all know about Edison and Bell, but we don’t know so much about Tesla do we? I think it's the same with music. Maybe it's something to do with a slight accident maybe if an accident has happened and Andrew Oldham, the manager of the Rolling Stones, walked into the studio at that time and said wow this is the music of tomorrow. Sometimes it's as simple as that. It’s just an accident of chance that actually make the difference.

HM: Do you remember when you first heard Basil Kirchin’s music and what you made of it at the time?

SOH: I certainly do. It was a guy called Johnny Trunk who introduced it to me. And Johnny Trunk probably introduced Basil Kirchin to the world in fact. Because it was both Johnny Trunk who actually rescued the about the back catalogue and made available again. And when I heard his music, even though I’d never heard music before, it was completely familiar and it was like I it had been in my head for years. I found that comforting and spooky at the same time.

HM: You don't hear comforting and spooky in the same sentence very often. How did that music influence The High Llamas?

SOH: I think it drove me to kind of less ordered in my presentation of structures and more fractional in the structures of the music.

HM: How do you hope to pay tribute to him tonight?

SOH: I was commissioned last year write this music that channels Basil’s ideas and his music. However, we actually finished with Basil’s music. And so it starts with my composition, but it’s my composition almost as I hear Basil Kirchin. And it's a way of indicating that we ideas and structures you know are alive and they're working and they’re well. So onstage we’ve recreated a very typical Basil Kirchin lineup with vibraphone, vintage pianos, organs, marimbas and we're going to go through the playing process which would be a mixture of written material and improvised experimental material. Very much the same way as Basil would in one of his original movies.

HM: Well Mr. O'Hagan, I wish you a very good concert and appreciate you talking with us today. Thank you.

SOH: Yeah. Thank you very much. It's been great.

HM: All right. Bye bye.

SOH: Bye.

JD: Sean O'Hagan is a member of the band The High Llamas. He's attending a conference in hall England celebrating the forgotten musician Basil Kirchin.

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