Note: Transcripts may contain errors. If you wish to re-use all, or part of, a transcript, please contact CBC for permission. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. Copyright © CBC 2016

The AIH Transcript for July 14, 2017

Hosts: Laura Lynch and Chris Howden

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

LAURA LYNCH: Hello, I'm Laura Lynch.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

LL: Five times they pulled up next to people on mopeds, and five times they sprayed those people with acid. Two teenagers are in custody in London after a series of acid attacks last night. And tonight, a witness tells us what he saw.

CH: Spy versus spy. Canadian Security Intelligence Service is hit with a $35 million lawsuit by five employees who say they were subjected to racist, sexist and homophobic discrimination.

LL: Playing her card bright. Lido Pimienta’s latest album, “La Papessa”, is named for the High Priestess card in the Tarot deck. And after the announcement that it made the shortlist, a Polaris Music Prize could be in her future.

CH: Translating the book the translated his son's behavior. The novelist David Mitchell talks about his latest work: a translation of a book by a young Japanese man with autism, and how it helped him understand his own child.

LL: Putting into words which he can't say. Mr. Mitchell tells us about the author of “Fall Down 7 Times Get Up 8”, who is largely unable to speak, but who found a way to write two books that changed his life and many others.

CH: And... bank canvas. Patrons at a Texas ATM were surprised when, along with their transaction receipt, they got desperate notes from a man who'd somehow got stuck inside the machine. As It Happens, the Friday edition. Radio that assumes he was going through withdrawal symptoms.

Part 1: London acid attacks, CSIS lawsuit, Texas ATM rescue

London acid attacks

Guest: John Moody

CH: Five acid attacks in just 72 minutes. Last night, two moped riders wreaked havoc across London, throwing acid in people's faces. Two of those victims are food delivery employees for Deliveroo and UberEATS. Police say two teenagers, aged 15 and 16, have been arrested for the attacks. John Moody is a cab driver who lives across the street from where the first of the attacks happened on Hackney Road. We reached Mr. Moody in London.

LL: Mr. Moody, when did you realize last night that something was wrong outside of your apartment?

JOHN MOODY: The thing is, Laura, that we have we have like soccer pitches further up the road, so between 10 and 10:30, it is normally full of footballers making their way home. So to hear some noise is not unusual. But what stood out last night was that there were two very, very loud screams. Which in retrospect, I can only put down to when the acid was actually thrown in the guy’s face. But because I'm used to a lot of noise there were the screams and then there was some shouting. What transpired was a moped been knocked over and I didn't actually get up to have a look. The thing about it was from the scream to the police arriving was no more than 60 seconds, it was just incredible.

LL: But you did get up to look, didn't you?

JM: Yeah. Well, as soon as the blue lights arrived outside the window, I got up to have a look. And when I looked out, I could see the victim was standing in the doorway directly opposite my apartment and the two police officers were in the process of removing his T-shirt. I wasn’t 100 per cent sure it was an acid attack, but that was my first thought because we've had numerous reports over the last weeks and months of what seems to be targeted attacks. But, as soon as I saw the water, I knew because I'd seen the reports of what the first responders need to do in an acid attack. The police arrived with huge containers of water and then they proceeded to gently pore over the guy's head. And it really struck me when I heard one of the police officers say that you know we need to pour into your eyes, you need to keep your eyes open. That was just the game-changer and I realised this was a serious event.

LL: And what kind of shape was he in?

JM: The police were doing a superb job. They were keeping him calm. He was just standing there. I think he was in, as anybody would, just in total shock. You know, he was compos mentis. But you know, he’d just had a massive shock. All while this was going on, there were more and more food courier mopheads arriving with their drivers because word had got around that one of their own had been attacked. So at a certain point, it was quite a chaotic scene. And then, no more than six or seven minutes after the beginning of the event, a specialized ambulance arrived, which the guy was led into and they continued to treat him in the ambulance.

LL: Now, what do you think the motivation was for these moped riders to attack this man and as we now know four others?

JM: It seems that last night primarily was robbery. So they disabled the victim with the acid and then they stole the moped. They disfigured somebody for life for a moped. It just baffles the mind. It really does. Mophead crime has been around for about two or three years, but primarily it's been phone snatches where someone will just reach out, snatch the phone and that’s it. They moved on to acid. I heard a commentator say today that the police have done such a good job cracking down on guns and knives that they're turning to acid because it's easier to conceal. And basically, there's no law against carrying it at the moment.

LL: The Labour MP for East Ham, Stephen Timms says he'd like to see acid taken more seriously as a weapon. That carrying liquids like acid should be an offense. What do you think?

JM: I totally agree. But let's be brutally honest. Years ago, when knife crime started increasing rapidly, they said anybody caught with a knife got five years in prison. We've heard it before. But I think last night, five in 90 minutes, has absolutely just rocked the boat. And so you know bring in some stiffer sentences and also you know accessibility. Does a 16-year-old need sulfuric acid from the hardware store? You know, it just doesn't make sense.

LL: You're a cab driver?

JM: I’m a London taxi driver, yeah.

LL: Does it make you feel any more worried as you head out on your shifts?

JM: I'm semi-retired after 35 years. But I do keep tabs on the Twitter feed my colleagues and we've got reports going back two years of moped thieves pulling up by the side of cabs, especially in warm weather, that have the windows open and the rider just reaching in and grabbing the money bag or any valuables that they can. So we've been aware of this problem for two years. You know, windows are always three-quarters up, doors are always locked and you know, this is my city. This is London and we’re just going out to earn a living driving a taxi and we’re in lockdown. It's just bizarre.

LL: At the same time though, Mr. Moody, we often hear about Londoners resilience and coming together around these incidents. And you talked a little earlier about what happened with other moped delivery drivers coming to his aid. I wonder if you can tell me a little bit more about that?

JM: Yeah. Well, within five minutes of the attack, there was five or six mopeds here and then there were literally two or three arriving every minute. And each one of them were getting off their mopeds and looking at their phones. I think a message going out to all of them. They must be on WhatsApp group or something. I've heard on a report this afternoon that there was actually a WhatsApp group for them and it’s for emergencies. I can only assume that somebody last night put the message out and they all came around. Obviously, they were very angry because this is not the first time. You know, some of them have been you know stabbed. So it's a problem, it’s a serious problem.

LL: What crossed your mind when you saw that reaction, though?

JM: It’s what we do. I mean you know, I've driven a Black Taxi for 35 years. I mean I used to work nights and quite regularly, if we got an emergency call, there would be as many cabs as could get there in a short period of time. It’s what we do. London just gets on with it. You know, it's OK getting on with it, but you need the powers that be to make it less common that we have to get on with it. So I think that's what the general public is going to be looking towards the government for some serious measures to stamp this out.

LL: Mr. Moody, I hope you pass a quiet night in your apartment tonight.

OK. Take care, love.

CH: John Moody is a taxi driver in London. He lives across from where one of five acid attacks happened last night in Hackney. That's where we reached him.

[Music: Sombre rock]

CSIS lawsuit

Guest: John Kingman Phillips

CH: Canada's spy agency is being sued by five of its own. It's illegal to do anything that might identify a CSIS agent, so court papers refer to the plaintiffs as Jane Doe 1 and 2 and John Doe 1 2 and 3. But, the claims those employees are making are now on the public record for everyone to see. They describe a workplace where they were subjected to racism, homophobia and intolerance of Muslims, and where their career suffered as a result. None of the allegations in the suit have been proven in court. John Kingman Phillips is the lawyer for the five CSIS employees. We reached him in Toronto. And just a note: there's a lot we're not allowed to say.

LL: Mr. Phillips, why have your clients decided to take the very public step of taking their top secret employer to court?

JOHN KINGMAN PHILLIPS: Laura, this has been an issue built over the course of the last year and a fair bit of time. We've made a lot of efforts, both individually and in some cases collectively, to try to raise this issue with CSIS to get a resolution that was informal and internal to the organization and those overtures were rebuffed. And unfortunately, my clients had to take the step of finally making a public filing.

LL: Making a public filing in this kind of a case with this kind of organization means that there are things that are different about it. I know that your clients can't be identified by name, but what can you tell us about what your clients did within the organization?

JP: I'd like to let the claim speak for itself. The facts are laid out in some detail as allegations and they are serious and they’ve had a very, very serious effect on my clients, both in their personal lives and in their professional lives.

LL: Can you tell me about that?

JP: Well, there have been some comments that my clients are disgruntled employees and that is not the case at all. These are highly-decorated employees in CSIS itself. And not notwithstanding being highly-decorated, their upward mobility was limited. Their careers were in large measure held back and they suffered fears of retaliation every time they made reports about what was happening that was directed them as minorities. And it's in that context that they had to do something to address what was going on in the organization. They tried that informally, ultimately that failed and didn't resolve the matter and they had to go to a public filing, which is unfortunate. But if Canada and CSIS doesn't cooperate in recognizing that there's a problem people will have to do this and that's what the court system is there for.

LL: I want to refer to the statement of claim. Specifically one of your clients is referred to as Alex in the statement of claim. That's a pseudonym. It says he got an e-mail from his manager stating careful, your Muslim in-laws maybe had you in your sleep for being... and you can insert a homophobic outfit here. How typical was that of the kind of experience your clients had?

JP: Well again, this is being a bit cagey as a lawyer, but I want to just refer to the allegations in the statement of claim and you can see how elaborate and how frequently it is alleged to have been and how serious it was alleged to have been.

LL: Another client is referred to as “Bahira” and again this is from the statement of claim. She reported attending the mosque bi-weekly and making donations randomly. Bahira says she was told that her security clearance could be revoked for associating with organizations or individuals in the Muslim community who could be perceived as antithetical to CSIS. What kind of consequences should there have been for that kind of workplace treatment?

JP: I'm going to let a court figure that out. In the end, I just know that something should have happened and nothing did.

LL: You don't have a sense of what should have happened?

JP: Well, anybody who made those kind of comments needed to be disciplined formally. It needed to be demonstrated in the organization that that just won't be tolerated. I mean that would be my response back if that allegation is established. That's what should have happened.

LL: We asked CSIS for an interview and they referred us to a statement — a written statement — that reads in part: “As an organization, CSIS does not tolerate harassment, discrimination, or bullying under any circumstances. Employees are always encouraged to report any real, potential, or perceived incidents of harassment without fear of reprisal to their supervisor or to senior management.” What is your response to them?

JP: Well, the allegations that are laid out in the statement of claim talk about the fear of retaliation that exists in that organization. And I think it's something that as this moves forward than those allegations are tested CSIS should pay attention to. I'm hoping with the new management at the top of this organization that things are corrected and then the system is made and designed to work better for people that are doing the work of national security for our country.

LL: How hopeful can you be when you've had to take this step though?

JP: Well, that's the concerning part. But, on the other hand, sometimes the court filing and some of what the press does gets the message sent and things get corrected.

LL: I wonder if you could talk to me a little bit about the particular challenges of mounting a case like this because it is CSIS. What are the various things you have to consider and hurdles you might have to overcome that you wouldn't in a normal lawsuit?

JP: Well, I don't want to get into too much of this. But obviously, the pseudonyms have to be used under Section 18 of the Canadian Security Intelligence Services Act. The identity of employees has to be preserved. The secrecy of the identities has to be preserved and we've done that, my client is ensuring that that's the case, both when they were in the organization and now. So that's part of the problem. And what happens in this case, which is not the norm, is that there's actually a discussion between counsel on our side and counsel for CSIS before the filing happens dealing with how much information can and should be disclosed and whether things should be redacted out? And we've had those discussions. And what was filed in court the other day is the product of those discussions trying to ensure for both sides. And this is CSIS working cooperatively with the plaintiffs to make sure that those identities aren’t disclosed and no one's endangered.

LL: Your clients have all taken leave, have they not?

JP: At various points, yes.

LL: Because of that, a lawsuit like this would have an even bigger impact I would think of them taking this step. So what would push them to do that given the stress they've already experienced?

JP: It's the desperation of what happens when you have one intelligence organization in the country that can be their employer. They can't even put on on their resumes where they've been employed before if they try to go somewhere else and there is no other intelligence organization, generally speaking, that's out there. So their careers have been stultified and that has had an impact on them obviously in terms of their personal health, their professional health and abilities and they had to do something. That was the collective decision that they took.

LL: How are you guys doing today, now that It's been filed? Have you spoken with them?

JP: Yes. I mean they knew that this was going to happen that there would be potential exposure of the facts of the claims. They're all very concerned and they're feeling a bit under threat. But again, they made that tough choice and that brave choice to come forward to have this addressed.

LL: Mr. Phillips, I thank you for your time.

JP: Well, thank you very much.

LL: Bye-bye.

JP: Bye-bye.

CH: John Kingman Phillips is the lawyer for five employees of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service who are suing the spy agency. We reached him in Toronto.

[Music: Electronica]

Texas ATM Rescue

Guest: Richard Olden

CH: Ordinarily an ATM doesn't dispense paper unless you push the button for a receipt. But on Wednesday, at a bank of America branch in Corpus Christi, Texas, something was obviously wrong with the machine. It spit out several pieces of paper, none of which told anyone their balance. The slips of paper were notes—help me notes—being pushed through the receipt slot by a guy who was trapped inside the ATM itself. Local police officers eventually rescued him. Richard Olden was one of them. We reached officer Olden in Corpus Christi, Texas.

LL: Officer Olden, how were you first alerted that there was something going on at this ATM?

RICHARD OLDEN: Actually, there was a call that another officer was going to and I just happened to be in the area, so I was actually a backup officer on this call.

LL: So did you even know at first what the call was about?

RO: No, not at all. It was ambiguous cause; just the police were needed at this particular location. We didn't know why we were going?

LL: When did you find out?

RO: Well I was on my way, our computer updates the information on the call. So I got halfway there and then the actual call on the computer read that there was someone stuck in the machine.

LL: That's what it said. What were people reporting to the police?

RO: That was actually the verbiage on the call was that someone was stuck in the machine. You know, you don't hear that too often. So I'm sure that myself and some of my other coworkers were on our way to that location to the accident scene.

LL: And what did you see?

RO: When I got there, there was a couple other officers that were there. The actual branch of that bank had been shut down. They were doing some remodeling, but the ATM machine was still operational. So we thought maybe someone had actually broken into the bank branch and got stuck inside there trying to get money out of the ATM machine. That was my first thought.

LL: What was the scene like? Were there people there telling you things?

RO: No, the person who actually called this in to the police station had actually given the first officer on the scene that note. And then they left, they didn't stick around for this.

LL: What note?

RO: There was a note, you know when you go in you actually do a withdrawal from an ATM machine you get a receipt of your transaction?

LL: Yes.

RO: OK. Well this person was inside the ATM machine and had actually found a way to slip a note — a handwritten note — through the receipt area. And that note said I'm stuck inside the machine, help me, call my boss with a telephone number to his supervisor.

LL: And when you saw that and heard all that, what was your first thought about what you were seeing?

RO: Well, I went up to the ATM machine and one of my police coworkers actually said he was having a conversation with the person inside. So I'm looking around for you know the candid camera kind of thing. You know, looking around to see if someone was filming with their cell phone and making a joke out of it. But, I actually heard the voice coming from the ATM machine and having a conversation with the gentleman inside. He wanted us to contact his supervisor.

LL: Did you believe that someone can actually be stuck inside?

RO: Well, I have a little bit of knowledge about the way that it works and I knew that there was a specific room that was designated for the ATM. But it was just weird to hear a voice coming from the actual ATM, he was standing right behind it I guess.

LL: So I mean you say that you were looking around for the candid camera, but because you're a police officer I guess it also crossed your mind that this guy might have been up to something no good?

RO: Correct. We thought in the beginning that he might have been a burglar that actually got caught and couldn't get out.

LL: So once you determined that this was real, that it wasn't a crime and it wasn't a joke. How did you go about rescuing him?

RO: His supervisor showed up and had a key to get access into the exterior door of the bank branch. But as you get inside, there is an interior door and he was actually locked inside that. His keys and his cell phone were inside the truck, so he couldn't get to that information. He was actually there to work on the lock of the interior door. So it ended up that we got permission from his supervisor to actually kick the door in to get him out of the room.

LL: Now that's police action!

RO: That’s police action at its best.

LL: What did he say when he got out?

RO: Well, he was he was kind of sweaty because he had been in there for a couple hours. And you know because the place was being renovated there was no air conditioning. So he was thankful that we got him out because he was thirsty and he was doing OK.

LL: So was he feeling a little bit silly for having got himself stuck in there when he went in to fix it?

RO: Yeah, I think that word was going to be embarrassment more than anything else.

LL: Have you ever seen or heard anything like this before?

RO: Never. This is one little thing that you would see on television on America's Funniest Videos or something like that. I never would have thought I would have heard a voice coming from an ATM machine. And it actually was a person inside the ATM, so not at all.

LL: I'm betting this is the most interesting withdrawal you've ever made from an ATM?

RO: Yes mam, it is.

LL: Officer, thank you very much.

RO: You're so welcome.

LL: Bye-bye.

RO: Bye-bye.

CH: Richard Olden is an officer with the Corpus Christi Police Department. He's in Corpus Christi, Texas. And you can find more on this story on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Up-tempo]

La Papessa

CH: Polaris, the so-called North Star, is actually a cluster of stars. And so is the Polaris Music Prize shortlist. That was a bit pat, maybe, I admit. But the 2017 shortlist, which was announced yesterday, is not pat at all. This year's nominees for the best Canadian album of the past year range from jazz to rock to folk to albums that don't fit neatly into any one category, one of which was made by Toronto's Lido Pimienta. It's called “La Papessa”, which means high priestess. Ms. Pimienta to the website Uma Nota the premise of the album is “basically the search for one's voice as a woman in a world in which we seem to be regressing.”

Part 2: David Mitchell on "Fall Down 7 Times Get Up 8: A Young Man's Voice From The Silence of Autism"

Guest: David Mitchell

CH: When novelist David Mitchell first read the words of Naoki Higashida, it was a revelation. Mr. Higashida is a young Japanese man with autism. For the most part, he cannot speak, but he can write by pointing at an alphabet grid. His first book “The Reason I Jump” showed that contrary to what many people believe, those with severe autism are capable of as much emotion and reflection as the rest of us. David Mitchell's own son has autism and “The Reason I Jump”, written when Naoki Higashida was only 13, was the first book he and his wife had read that gave them real insight into what might be going on in their child's mind. Because the book was in Japanese, they translated into English and it became an international bestseller. Now, the couple has collaborated with Mr. Higashida again. His new book is called “Fall Down 7 Times Get Up 8: A Young Man's Voice From The Silence of Autism”. David Mitchell joined us from a studio in Chicago.

LL: David Mitchell, welcome to As It Happens.

DAVID MITCHELL: Thank you very much. It's great to be here.

LL: Tell me how did you feel when you first read Naoki Higashida’s writing?

DM: When I first read it, our son, who has autism and who is also now nonverbal, was about three or four years old. It was a very tough time. He was prone to fairly regular meltdowns and episodes of self-harm that I won’t get too much into. But it was hard and distressing and I simply had no idea what was going on inside his head and it seemed that not many people did either. There were books I already had, but they were written by neuro-typical academics or sometimes by the mothers of kids with autism. And these were helpful up to a point, but I had no way of really being sure that what they were describing was A: what was going on inside the head of kids like my son who have nonverbal autism. And B: if it wasn't sort of just the best guess.

LL: So how did it change the way you thought about your own son?

DM: It appended many of the preconceptions, many of the sort of inherited pieces of wisdom that I thought I knew about autism. For example that people with autism can't emote, they don't have emotions. They can't imagine them inside the head of someone else. And also, that they don't have imaginations or don't aspire to other areas of life more than a day to day survival. Naoki, clearly even when he was writing as a 13-year-old, the first book that my wife and I translated, “The Reason I Jump” even when he was that young, he seemed internally to be as fully functioning and as capable of if not enjoying life aspiring to enjoy life as a neurotypical child. So it's made all the difference for us. If you believe that inside the head of a kid with autism is someone who wants to communicate with you, who can feel emotions, who does imagine then in all sorts of ways you go the extra mile. You treat them as someone to build a bridge to rather than someone you need to take care of. But who would never be able to respond to that bridge building on your behalf. This I think kicks off a virtuous spiral with the kid. They can see you’re trying to reach them, even though they have no way of communicating this to you. They know that you're doing your best. They know that you are crediting them with full card-carrying rights of a human being rather than the problems other than simply to constantly make allowances for. And then they respond back. They're encouraged and I think there's a virtuous spiral kicks in. Does this make any sense?

LL: Yes, it does and to just use a colloquialism though, this must have rocked your world?

DM: It made me want to apologize to my son for not having understood earlier. It made me want to apologize for having gone along with what I thought I knew about autism, with not having credited him with all that he is capable of and for not having seen his potential, and for not having been more patient. Yes, it did. It did rock in my world in ways that it is still rocking my world.

LL: What was it like to meet Naoki?

DM: Wow! It was a remarkable day; I'll never forget. I was in downtown Tokyo hotel. At that point, I’d only read what he'd written when he was a boy. So I'd read him when he was a 13-year-old very young author. Now, he was this hulking great guy walking in aged about 20 at this point. I was surprised at how classically autistic he appears to be. I mean I'd seen clips of him on YouTube, so I wasn't completely unprepared. But it's not high functioning Asperger's we're dealing with Naoki, he really is as is on his I.D. card: severely autistic. And if you saw him walking down the sidewalk toward you that be no doubt in your mind OK, we have issues here and it's probably hard-core autism and that's what it is. And so this, for me, underlined the width between what you see and what you get. Between how you would judge him from the outside and then what he writes from the inside. I think he was quite nervous and a little bit fazed by the idea of meeting this English speaking white dude, who has a track record of being a published author. So it took about half-an-hour for him to be able to calm down. I think the first time he walked into the room, walked around the room and then left. His mom brought him back in again, so it took him a bit of time to get used to me. But then we sat down, he had his alphabet grid, which is like a QWERTY keyboard written on a piece of cardboard in front of him. And then I asked him a question and my less-than-great Japanese. An interpreter was on hand for when I needed it. And then he began to focus. And of course he can't speak. He makes quite a lot of noise. He says words that come into his head as nonverbal people with autism who are English speakers also do. Then he sat down and answered my first question in increasingly fluent, adult, sophisticated Japanese and that was quite remarkable. That was kind of magic. I'd seen him do it on YouTube, but there's a difference between that and just me being able to ask him a question, say about metaphor and him being able to give a coherent and fully thought out answer to my question.

LL: And “The Reason I Jump”, the book that as you mentioned that he wrote when he was 13-years-old, that had a huge impact on you as we stated. When you and your wife translated the book and it was published in English what were you expecting?

DM: We were expecting and hoping for nothing more than my UK and my American and Canadian publishers to produce about 3,000 copies of the book so that people who didn't have the good fortune of a Japanese-speaking spouse would be able to get access to the book. That's all we expected, but the full story is my agent got to read it by this point and showed it to my editors and they agreed there may be a wider market for it. Not just autism insiders, but for people who have a niece or nephew or grandchild with autism. And who wanted to help, but who were, like my own mom and dad, completely unable to because they were dealing with something far outside their own experience. But things snowballed and escalated. There was a great adaptation of the book on the BBC. Then Jon Stewart of “The Daily Show” is a great autism advocate incidentally, he read the book and had me on the show. And suddenly, completely unexpectedly, we had this publishing hit on our hands. The book today has sold well into the six figures on both sides of the Atlantic. It continues to sell and its in 34 languages now. And Naoki, at least for this year, was out-earning his dad and was becoming a taxpayer. For any parent who has a kid with special needs that's what you dream. You yearn for the day when just maybe your kid will become a taxpayer. This happened.

LL: I'm speaking with author David Mitchell. He is the co-translator of a new book by the Japanese writer Naoki Higashida. It's called “Fall Down Seven 7 Times Get Up 8: A Young Man's Voice From The Silence Of Autism.” Some people were suspicious that Naoki could be capable of communicating the way he does and still have autism, and some were even hostile. Do you understand that?

DM: I do understand it. It's a natural response. He is so fluent and so articulate. He analyzes, he uses metaphor, he does all the things that we think we know about autism would preclude. Yet, all I can say is I've met him, I've seen him, I am telling the truth and I have no reason to lie. He really is as autistic as I am claiming he is. And he really is the author of these books.

LL: Naoki’s also really adept at painting a picture of his own experience by using small concrete examples that pile up into a cumulative effect and quite moving.What are a few of the vignettes that stand out for you?

DM: I like the ones where he talks about his family. My son, like Naoki, isn't able to express to us that he appreciates what we do for him, that he loves us, that he's aware of. That even though he can't communicate, his passive vocabulary is much, much, much greater and more muscular than his active vocabulary, so he can understand a lot more than he says. And I see the same sort of glimmers in my son as well. And Naoki talking about this gap and making evident in the book itself really. Of the gap between what's going on in his mind and what he can express verbally, these made quite a deep impact on me. And in the middle of all this nonfiction, he's also included a story. There’s one at the end of “The Reason I Jump” and there's one in the middle of this new book as well. He showcases in fiction—in this story—what he's saying and explaining in nonfiction elsewhere. So I think the short stories that are in both books are sort of the cherries on the cake for me.

LL: What did they say that the memoir entries don’t?

DM: To take an example from the story called “A Journey” in “Fall Down Seven Times Get Up Eight” It's quite a dreamlike mysterious story and for a long time you don't know what's going on with the first person narrator. Knowing as you do that it was written by someone with autism, your immediate assumption is that it's about being an autism insider. But then you get to the end of the book and without giving a spoiler you realize it's not. And he's been leading you on, just like I do when I write fiction. You work with your perceived expectations inside the author's head. So the fiction is a kind of a partnership between the author and the reader's imagination. And for me as a writer to see Naoki doing this, it's quite breathtaking. I think once again I have underestimated him. Once again, I'm being shown that it's easy to and people regularly do underestimate the imaginative and intellectual capabilities of someone with nonverbal autism, who may, both in Naoki and in my son's case, never really have produced a full complex sentence verbally in their whole life. But here they are doing it texturally. I was speaking with Naoki of course from his alphabet about what I'd like to do in the future and how he sees his future path because he can do what he can, be a kind of ambassador from the world of nonverbal autism. He does this a lot. He does public presentations where he reads from his work, but he wants more as well. He'd like to be an author like me. He writes about other things as well. And it's good to be reminded that there is more to life if you do have a fairly severe medical or neural condition that impacts upon your life. There’s nonetheless more to your life than learning how to live with that. Learning how to, if you can, be an advocate for that learning how to be a voice for people who don't have a voice. You have ambitions and dreams that aren't connected to your disability and you shouldn't be defined or pigeonholed by your disability. And it's good to hear that from Naoki. And Fall Down 7 Times is kind of evidence in nonfiction and fiction of that aspiration.

LL: At the same time, he also in the book says that he's come to this realization that he doesn't want to be anything else than what he is. As someone with autism, he wouldn't change himself. He can't imagine himself any other way. And I think that was it seemed like quite a realisation for him of self-acceptance.

DM: Yes, I think it is. I know it's hard living with autism. It's hard being a 24 hour carer of someone with autism. It's way harder than that to live with it. I mean at least I get breaks. If this is the brain you are wired into then this is your existence. There is no such thing as a break from it. It's really tough.

LL: But it's more than that, isn't it? He seems to almost be celebrating who he is?

DM: Yes, he is. It is more than acceptance, you’re right. This is something in a sense that only he can say. I can't say for him. I mean if I could wave a magic wand and wish my own son’s autism away I probably would. And this is a contentious statement and there are people and I understand their viewpoint as well. The neurodiversity advocates who would take exception to what I just said. But just because we live in such a neuro-typically engineered world, it is a harder life to be neuro-atypical in this world. However, Naoki has come to understand that his autistically-wired brain gives him access to forms of beauty and modes of mind that he couldn't have if he were neurotypical like you and me. It gives me great hope that other people like my son can also access those forms of beauty and that relationship with time and memory.

LL: This book is largely about how one person, Naoki, experiences autism, but it is about so much more than that because it forces the reader, it certainly forced me, to think about what they value. What does Naoki want people to reflect on about how people live their lives?

DM: Well, I can't speak for Naoki, but I can draw on conversations we've had I guess and maybe just paraphrase what he writes in the book as well. First, he just hopes that his work communicates to us lot what it's like to be him and it's an invitation to walk a mile in his shoes. His writing does have this peculiar quality in which he doesn’t ask us to think like that. But his work does sort of gently invite us to think about how what he writes about applies to our lives? So when he writes about how his perception of time and memory works, you sort of almost can't help but think well how do I think about time? How do I think about memory? When he writes about interactions with neurotypical people that have gone less than great, you are gently invited to think well, what would I have done in that situation? How would I have responded? There is an oddly interactive quality to his writing that I think might explain why the books have found such a large audience outside the regular usual autism insider audience.

LL: Finally, you and your wife, Keiko Yoshida, if I'm pronouncing that correctly—

DM: That's fine.

LL: —translated this book together. Naoki is the author and I need to make that clear to the listeners. But I wanted you to read a passage from the book. I think it's going to be about Mother's Day, maybe you could set up the reading?

DM: “Fall Down 7 Times Get Up 8” drawn largely from blogs Naoki wrote in his late teenage and early 20’s. In 2011, he wrote about how he wants more than anything else just to be able to express his appreciation to his mum for everything she has done for him and how that's the worst thing about autism really. It's not the hardships it brings upon himself that he has to endure, it's his inability to say thank you and to express his gratitude and his consciousness that he’s causing sadness to the people around him, who he loves the best I guess. So he just talks in 2011 about how frustrating it was that he couldn't even buy a single carnation or a flower for his mum. And then a couple of years later, this happens. So I'll begin the reading here.

DM: Mother's Day 2013, sometimes I go out with my special needs helper to a local supermarket. To practice shopping, I buy my own snacks. Today, in the corner of the food section, I saw they were selling red carnations for Mother's Day. I thought I'd like to buy some for mum, but of course I wasn't simply able to vocalize this thought because it's so hard for me to tell others what I want via speech or gestures. On this occasion however, I managed to produce this two word line: “carnation buy.” My helper was pretty gobsmacked. Here's how I pulled it off. First, I replayed a memory clip of carnations in my head. By viewing this clip, I was able to say the word “carnation”. Next, to access the verb I needed to go with the flower, I directed my thoughts to what I was doing at the time. Words like “walk”, “see” and “think” floated through my mind, but then the fact of our being in a supermarket unveiled the word “buy”. That verb was the best fit for the word “carnation”. By combining the two, I got “carnation buy.” Once there, I was free to think that's what I need to say. And finally I said it. I only had enough coins with me for a single flower. But when we came home, I gave the carnation to mum and she was elated. I'm still not good at the practical aspects of buying things without assistance, but it was fantastic that I could tell my helper what I wanted to buy. And I'm still a long way from being able to speak in this way whenever I want to. I know now though that there are times when, at a pinch, I can pull it off. Giving flowers to my mum for Mother's Day was a dream I'd been harboring for years. That day one red carnation in a room at home did all my speaking for me.

LL: Such a simple thing and yet so profound. He has given us such a window into his world and made us reflect. David Mitchell, thank you so much for translating and letting us hear Naoki’s voice.

DM: It's really been my pleasure, Laura. Thank you for having me on your program.

CH: Novelist David Mitchell is the co-translator of “Fall Down Seven Times Get Up Eight: A Young Man's Voice From The Silence of Autism” by Naoki Higashida. It's published by Random House. Mr. Mitchell was in a studio in Chicago. And you can see some video of Naoki Higashida working, as well as photos on our website www.cbc.ca/aih.

Provide Transcript Feedback

CBC would like to acknowledge the support of the Broadcasting Accessibility Fund.

July 17, 2017 episode transcript

Social Sharing

More from this episode