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The AIH Transcript for November 30, 2018

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

CAROL OFF: Hello, I’m Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening, I'm Jeff Douglas. This is “As It Happens”.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

JD: Tonight:

CO: Not just worried — tariff-ied. Today's signing of the new North American trade deal was a gift for U.S. President Trump. But thanks to his tariffs, some Ontario steelworkers have learned they'll be getting layoffs for Christmas.

JD: They'll be behind bars — but who's behind them? Seven men are convicted of murdering a Honduran activist. But to her family, the verdict only scratches the surface.

CO: The world stopped shaking — but she hasn't. A resident of Anchorage, Alaska says today's powerful earthquake was the worst she's felt. And the aftershocks have kept her on edge all day.

JD: So much for "do not disturb". The world's largest hotel chain announces it fell victim to one of the world's largest data breaches — and up to half a billion people may be affected.

CO: Larva conquers all. A newly-discovered species of wasp uses its tiny gross offspring to control a spider's mind, and then eats its body — without so much as a "thanks for the wasp-itality."

JD: Yummy! And..."record time" doesn't always mean "fast". In fact, it took 33 years for the Inuit rock band Northern Haze to release their second record — but as we'll hear, there were stumbling blocks more serious than writer's block.

JD: "As It Happens", the Friday edition. Radio that guesses they could tell Sisyphus something about slow rock progress.

[Music: Theme]

Part one: CUSMA (Canada/U.S./Mexico Agreement): mayor, Anchorage earthquake, Northern Haze new album

CUSMA ( Canada/U.S./Mexico Agreement): mayor

Guest: Christian Provenzano

JD: It wasn't all sunshine and flashbulbs at the signing ceremony for the new NAFTA in Buenos Aires today. Prime Minister Trudeau joined his U.S. and Mexican counterparts to commit their countries to the deal. But President Trump's sanctions on aluminum and steel are still in place. Mr. Trudeau did his best to point that out without losing face.

SOUNDCLIP

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: There is more hard work ahead to build resilient strong economies that support families everywhere in Canada. As I discussed with President Trump A few days ago, the recent plant closures by General Motors are a heavy blow. Make no mistake, we will stand up for our workers, and fight for their families and their communities. And Donald, it's all the more reason why we need to keep working to remove the tariffs on steel and aluminum between our countries. With hard work, goodwill, and determination, I'm confident we will get there.

JD: Andrew Scheer doesn't seem to share the PM's confidence in his ability to negotiate with the US President. Here's what the Conservative Leader had to say in Kemptville, Ontario today.

SOUNDCLIP

ANDREW SCHEER: After months and months of Trudeau trying to play know play the tough guy with Donald Trump, it's clear he capitulated. He signed concession after concession, after concession. The Americans are counting their victories in what they got from Canada. And Trudeau is counting his victories in what he didn't have to give away. Today, after saying that he wouldn't have a photo op with Donald Trump until he got steel and aluminum Tariffs Lifted, one more capitulation. The final concession Trudeau agreed participate in a photo op in a signing ceremony, even though those steel and aluminum tariffs exist. They're still in for in effect today, so one more final humiliation for the Prime Minister on NAFTA.

JD: Conservative Leader Andrew Scheer. The failure to remove the US sanctions will not be welcome news for steel workers in Sault Ste Marie tonight. Yesterday, a tube plant in the city announced that it would be laying off 90 of its workers over Christmas. Christian Provenzano is the Mayor of Sault Ste Marie. We reached him at city hall.

CO: Mayor Provenzano, is it your impression that Mr. Trudeau has capitulated?

CHRISTIAN PROVENZANO: Look, I'm singularly concerned with my community as a mayor of Sault Ste Marie, and I'm singularly concerned with steel as an industry. I recognize that the Prime Minister and the Minister of International Trade have to have broader concerns and a broader perspective. And I understand why they concluded in after negotiations without the steel and aluminum tariffs being lifted. But that doesn't mean that it's something I'm pleased about. The steel tariffs are terrible economic policy. They're not good for Canada. They're also not good for the U.S.

CO: What is the effect that those steel an aluminum tariffs have had on your community?

CP: Like it creates an anxiety. And we know that these tariffs are hanging over us, and we know that they're making our steel more expensive. The reality is that a significant part of the steel that we make here goes into the U.S. But the reality is we export that steel to a commercial industrial clients that have been buying that steel for us for years. And they buy that steel from us because we make that steel to their specific specs. And it would be very hard for those companies to replace us in their supply chain.

CO: So what are they doing with not having that steel now?

CP: Well, they haven’t, and this is why it's such a terrible economic policy. And this is why both countries should work together to end this immediately. And it's in the American's interest to end it immediately. They have to either eat the tariff, or eat part of the tariff, which affects profits here. And they also pass along part of it. And if they pass that along, it gets passed into the U.S. system. I recently spoke at an event in Sterling Heights, Michigan. I was invited down to speak at a Chamber of Commerce event there on steel tariffs. And the mayor of Sterling Heights was there, and the congressman that represents that part of Michigan in Washington was also there. And I spoke to both gentlemen about this, and they have an exemption process in the US where an American company can apply for a tariff exemption if they can only get their steel in Canada or their product can't be replaced by the American market. And I was told by the Republican congressman that there were upwards of fourteen hundred applications immediately for that exemption, and they couldn't process them quick enough. And that's because what this is doing is it's driving up the price all round, and it's leading into profits — not good for either country. So I'm glad the Prime Minister raised the issue today, and I have pressed our local MP. And frankly, I have pressed the Prime Minister's Office and the Minister of Foreign Affairs office to continue pressing this issue because it is of critical importance. Not just to my community, but to our country.

CO: Just on the pressing, how difficult is it do you think dealing with a president who is unpredictable, and can even be vengeful? Do you think that it's difficult to push as you would like to see done?

CP: I think it is difficult to deal with parties when it's hard to anticipate what that party's reaction will be, or if you're not sure that party's reaction will be rational, like we're in unchartered territory here with the relationship between Canada and the U.S. I think the prime minister probably has a very challenging job working with this president. But frankly, that's the prime minister's job. And it's our expectation as a community — and my expectation as a mayor — that the federal government support the Canadian steel industry through this process. But frankly, figure out a way to bring it to an end.

CO: You're dealing with though in your own community to take it to your level is that you have people whose jobs are rather capricious right now, layoffs of about 90 people, a three-week shut down just before Christmas. What's that going to be like for your community as we head into the holidays?

CP: Yesterday, Tenaris laid off 90 people. So there's 90 families there that have the insecurity of one of the primary income earners not having that employment right now. And that is a direct result of these tariffs, and it’s a direct result of a surge in energy tubulars into the Canadian economy. So we have product that’s being dumped in the Canadian economy that's affecting our ability to distribute our own product. And you know all of these things are have consequences in the first order, but then those consequences continue. So when you have somebody that loses their employment, whether it's Christmas time or not, I mean Christmas time is obviously a more difficult time for that to happen. But in any event, that affects that household's ability to spend. And that affects that house's ability to do things that they might need to do. And that has a broader effect in the community. But this is a very strong community, and we don't back away from anything, and we meet our challenges directly. So we're going to fight through this.

CO: Mayor Provenzano, we're watching. Appreciate you telling us about what's going on to Sault Ste Marie. Thank you.

CP: Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity to speak to you.

CO: Bye.

CP: Bye.

JD: Christian Provenzano is the Mayor of Sault Ste Marie. That’s where we reached him.

[Music: Horns]

Anchorage earthquake

Guest: Gabby Black

JD A seven-point-zero magnitude earthquake hit Anchorage, Alaska, this morning. It fractured roads and cracked ceilings. Aftershocks from the earthquake continued throughout the day. There were no immediate reports of any deaths or serious injuries. Gabby Black though was working at a cafe when the earthquake hit. We reached her earlier this afternoon in Anchorage, Alaska.

CO: Gabby, has the earth stopped moving.

GABBY BLACK: Absolutely not.

CO: Oh my! What's going on?

GB: So I have been home after the first serious earthquake, and have already experienced three other smaller earthquakes. And even though I don't feel anything now, people keep warning me that there will be bigger ones soon. It's just constant worry. I haven't been able to not shake or feel calm in any shape or form.

CO: Where were you when the big earthquake hit?

GB: I was at work. I work at Middle Way Café, and I was taking an order from a man when I heard and felt the earthquake. At first, you know we had a lot of earthquakes here, and it wasn't that big of a deal until I looked at my co-workers. And then it's when you started feeling the serious shake where it's moving your entire body. And immediately we all dropped to our knees and try and find shelter and thank God we have really sturdy counters that we were able to all get under. And at that same time, you're just praying for everyone and hoping that it would stop quickly. And other coworkers were yelling out get under the tables because we get a lot of people that aren't from Alaska, and so just trying to advise them to stay under. And it was absolutely terrifying hearing things break and ceiling falling and lights breaking, and it was just absolutely terrifying.

CO: How long did this last?

GB: So they say that it lasted a minute, but I can tell you that that was a really long minute. This one has been the biggest I've ever experienced. And you know to come out walking and talking to people and calling loved ones and knowing that they're OK, it's like better than Christmas.

CO: Who were you thinking about in that minute?

GB: I was thinking of my fiancée. He works roofing. And I was just trying to pray and hope that he wasn't on top of the roof at that time. And I was thinking of my family, hoping that they had shelter and that nothing severely happened to them. And just people in this café, you know hoping that they heard our advice and knew to stay put and be careful because this is a serious thing. And I guess just my friends.

CO: And they are OK? You checked? Was your fiancée on a roof?

GB: No, thank God he was not. He was actually driving, and he thought that something was wrong with his truck. He was upset that he had to fix that until he noticed that the stop light was moving. And then he realized it was an earthquake. So I'm extremely happy that he is OK.

CO: And what damage was done to the coffee shop when you got a chance to assess?

GB: A lot of broken plates and glassware. Our brother restaurant beside us, the ceilings came off. It was just destroyed. There was so much glass everywhere. And just a lot of cleaning up afterwards.

CO: You say that you're used to earthquakes in Alaska, you have to know what to do, you prepared for that. But were you ever prepared for a one like this?

GB: No. Yes, we do have lots of earthquakes. And usually you know you feel a shimmer, you don't think too much of it, you kind of just wait, and you're like oh, it will pass. And usually, it’ll end. But this one was your whole body's moving, and you can't stop it from busy. You look up, and the building is just shaking, and things are drastically moving and breaking. And even though I, fortunately, was safe under a table, I can't imagine how other people were reacting if they didn't have a security of a table or even a doorway.

CO: What do the aftershocks feel like?

GB: Because I'm still shaking and fearful, they just feel like little tremors. So you'll just be standing, and suddenly, your body shifts a little bit. You can also hear it sometimes it sounds like a roar coming, and you also hear glass chiming and things just shifting. You just know that it's coming. You can hear it and feel it all the same time.

CO: You're home now. And was there much damage to your house?

GB: Yes, a lot of broken glass, broken antiques, picture frames had fallen, books off shelves. I believe that this house did really well in this earthquake, but I've seen many of my family members and friends’ houses have much more damage.

CO: And you've got Friday night ahead of you, it’s a big cleanup I guess?

GB: Friday, Saturday, Sunday will be clean up right before final exam. But I am thankful that I am alive and well, and family members and friends — and many things to be happy about.

CO: Gabby, take care. And thank you so much for speaking with us.

GB: Yes, thank you for having me.

CO: Bye bye.

GB: Bye.

JD: We reached Gabby Black earlier this afternoon in Anchorage.

[Music: Ambient]

Northern Haze new album

Guest: James Ungalaq

JD: Northern Haze, the Inuit band from Igloolik, released its debut record back in 1985 with CBC’s Northern Service. The Toronto Star said Northern Haze was the, quote, “first band to release a rock album in Inuktitut.” And the band has continued to perform ever since. But it took a while for them to release their full-length follow up: 33 years. It's called "Siqinnaarut" — which means "return of the sun". It just came out last week. So we called up Northern Haze frontman James Ungalaq to find out about the making of the record — and what took them so long. We reached James Ungalaq in Iqaluit.

CO: James, first of all, congratulations.

JAMES UNGALAQ: Thank you very much, Carol.

CO: How did it feel for you to see this album come out?

JU: I’ve waited 30-plus years to do another album. You can imagine that.

CO: Why did it take so long? Why did it take 35 years?

JU: Many things. We lost two prominent members of our group. And it was difficult to get the equipment, the technology, and the know-how. Like anything else, you know it was growing, but it was growing slow.

CO: You mentioned though, you just said how one of the things that prevented you from doing this earlier was you lost a couple of the key members of the original group. Can you tell us about your bassist, your bass player, who died I guess… well about eleven years ago?

JU: We grew up with him. He was a little bit older than us. He was so talented, and his mind couldn't stop, and he couldn't stop talking. But it's just amazing how we got together, and a lot of his ideas we put together. Kolitalik went to school in the south, when we were stranded in our home. And he went to school, and he came back playing guitar like Jimi Hendrix. And those two guys just so well fitted together getting creative.

CO: And you mentioned Kolitalik, he was your main songwriter, he was the leader of the band, he died. He was murdered, wasn't he, a week after Elijah died of cancer?

JU: Yes, yes.

CO: When you were together originally — the original band — you were rock stars in the north, right? I mean people would go long distances to hear your band play.

JU: Yes, it's amazing. When we come play somewhere, we had visitors from all over.

CO: Your sound is a metal sound, isn't it? It's a real hard rock and roll sound, but the lyrics are all in Inuktitut. What was it like for people to hear their language, and to hear this modern sound together?

JU: Well, of course, there was some negative comments. And I think the best comment influence that we have was just keep doing what you're doing because it's also saving our language.

CO: Was it the elders who did not like you using your language in that western modern music context?

JU: Yes, partly. But there's been so much stigmatism against our own culture. It was a cultural genocide at one point, right? And it was not easy to integrate our culture into the modern stuff. It was wrong. It had to be proper, you know? If you put your suit on, you put on your best shoes. That's the way I see it.

CO: You mentioned also cultural genocide, which is the phrase that we now use to describe what was going on in this country for many years. Do you feel that things have changed? Do you feel there is a different relationship with the south now than there was when you made your first album?

JU: Of course, it's going to get better and better. I mean Canada is beautiful that way. Once we find some things wrong with attitudes and culture that not right, we fight them. And regularly, we win. You know Canada is one of the best countries in the world to be known for that. And we're just part of it.

CO: So you don't feel that that stigma is still there?

JU: Oh yes, I mean it's you know when they legalize marijuana, when you go hide out in the back yard and smoke, it's not easy. After it's legalized, to go smoke in the front yard and not hide, you know? You just go hide anyways.

CO: James, that is such a good metaphor for what you're talking about about being stigmatized.

CO: I understand what you are saying there. I want to ask you just finally, because we're going to play a song from your new album, “Angajusakuluk”. I think it's I'm close enough that I can pronounce it. Can you tell us about that track?

JU: We wrote that song when Elijah was sick from cancer, and he went away, and he was so far away. We put him on the phone because when they diagnosed him with cancer, we wanted to encourage him, and help keep fighting, but he'd lost the battle to cancer. It's about I'll be there for him, you know? And I love him so much. He left us so soon. And that song changed over time. We played it before he passed away. It was different during his struggle. And after he left us, we wanted to make it permanent.

CO: So this song's for him?

JU: This song’s for him.

CO: James, it's just great to talk to you. I'm so happy for you and the band. Thank you.

JU: Oh, I’m so blessed to talk to you. I told everybody I'm talking to Carol Off today. It's amazing.

CO: It's our immense pleasure to have you on this program. Thank you, James.

JU: Thank you, Carol.

CO: Bye.

JU: Bye.

JD: That was James Ungalaq, frontman of the band Northern Haze.

[Music: Folk]

Part two: Honduran activist verdict, Marriot breach

Honduran activist verdict

Guest: Silvio Carillo

JD: The trial is over. But has justice been done? Late yesterday, seven men were convicted of orchestrating the murder of Honduran environmental activist, Berta Caceres. An eighth defendant was cleared and freed. Ms. Caceres was murdered in March 2016, in the midst of her fight against a plan to build a hydro-electric dam on Honduran territory sacred to Indigenous people. From a legal perspective, it's case closed. But for Ms. Caceres's family, and supporters, the verdict offers little comfort. Silvio Carillo is the nephew of Berta Caceres. We reached him in Oakland, California

CO: Mr. Carillo, with this verdict, are you satisfied that justice has prevailed?

SILVIO CARILLO: No, I mean as a family, we can never be satisfied because we've lost Berta. There's no satisfaction in anything else but getting her back, and that's obviously impossible. I think in realistic terms, it great that these men were found guilty. But we still need to go after the intellectual authors.

CO: But when we first began covering this story, after your aunt was killed, the suspicion was that no one would ever be prosecuted — that the levels of impunity in Honduras would preclude that. People were amazed that anybody was arrested, let alone seven people being convicted for her death. Is that is that is that an accomplishment though in itself?

SC: Sure, it's an accomplishment, but it's an accomplishment like on paper. It doesn't mean that the judicial system works in Honduras. It just means that some low-level guys got caught with their hands in the cookie jar, you know? It doesn't mean that the people that planned or that paid them to stick their hands in the cookie jar were caught — which is where the real problem in the justice system in Honduras lies. It's not these low-level guys. Like, these guys are pretty easy to catch. And if the police weren't so corrupt, and actually did its job, this would happen every day.

CO: Who were the people who were convicted yesterday?

SC: At least two men who were involved who were former military. One was current military. The other six that really low-level guys that I think were kind of just thuggish, and knew someone who knew someone who got them involved.

CO: And some of these men were I guess the ones who shot your aunt. They had training — they had military training — they were, in fact, U.S.-trained.

SC: That's correct. Two of them were involved in forces that were trained by the U.S. And the one — there's still one trial that's yet to come of the Desa — he's a manager Desa, the company that was building the dam, and this man he got a scholarship to go to the U.S. to go to West Point. And he's involved. You know his trial is coming up next year.

CO: Given the fact that there is this executive from Desa who will be prosecuted, doesn't that answer your question as to whether or not anybody higher up who may have been involved is being prosecuted?

SC: No. Well, that's what the Honduran government is hoping people will believe. But the reality is that there is an enormous amount of evidence that was not used in this case against the eight men. It was not used because the government is afraid of where it will lead to. There's about a terabyte of evidence, apparently, that exists. And only about 50 gigs of evidence was used to convict these eight. And it's actually seven men; one of them was acquitted. The problem is the public ministry in Honduras, the prosecution, is controlling what evidence gets used. Now, there is a ton of evidence that implicates other people higher up in Desa. For instance, the financial administrator of Desa. His name is Daniel Atala. And there are WhatsApp conversations, the messaging service, of him with these killers. Now, there hasn't been any investigation into his role, and into the family that owns the damn company.

CO: When you say this family, this is the Atala Zablah family?

SC: Correct, the Atala Zablah family.

CO: And the activists were holding up banners reading, “the Atala are missing”. Can you tell us a bit about this family, and what role they have in Desa?

SC: There's a couple of Atala families. Several of them are millionaire families. One of them is a billionaire. And this Atala Zablah branch owns several mining concessions, damn concessions around the country that the government sold off to them. They're a very wealthy family that is well-known in Honduras for its ruthlessness.

CO: And this family was investing in the Desa dam, or the Desa Company was building this dam. But the company says they had nothing to do with this. That they did have these phone records only because they were involved in other kinds of security issues not related to your aunt. What do you say to Desa?

SC: I've seen the WhatsApp messages that Daniel Atala and several other members had between them. And it is clear that there was a campaign against my aunt, against the organization that my aunt co-founded, bringing together the Indigenous people to protest against the dam. This campaign started right off the bat. Soon after in 2013, a campaign of denigration and threats against my aunt and against members — several members have been killed.

CO: We spoke with you last I think just days after your aunt's murder. And you said that she was very worried about her security; it was very difficult for her to stay safe. What motivated her to keep speaking out?

SC: Berta saw this this injustice every day of her life. My grandmother was a midwife, and Berta grew up with Indigenous people coming to our house and lining up to see my grandmother for basic health care — like children dying of diarrhea or tuberculosis. Very simple things that we take for granted. And Berta saw this every day. She saw how they were treated and mistreated, how they lacked education, how they were given the opportunity for education, how they were not giving given any voice, and so this was central to Berta’s core, and why she did what she did.

CO: She was recognized internationally. She won a big prize for her work, and a lot of people rallied to see that there was justice done. What more can you do at this point to push it, given that it's it seems really an accomplishment to have got any convictions at all?

SC: You know our work has had an effect. You know, as you were saying, there's a reason why there was so much response from the international community. And that's really the only reason why we've gotten this far. So we're going to continue until we get you know people like the Atala Zablah family before the court, so we can hear their side of the story. It's not just about us, it's not just about Berta, it’s not just about Honduras. You know, this is about justice in Latin America and places where justice doesn't exist.

CO: Mr. Carillo, we will continue to follow this story, and stay in touch with you. I appreciate you talking to us today. Thank you.

SC: Thank you very much.

JD: Silvio Carillo is the nephew of Berta Caceres, the Honduran activist who was murdered in 2016. We reached Mr. Carillo in Oakland, California. We have more on this story on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Sad piano]

Listener response: Dozer

JD: We cover the big stories on "As It Happens". And then, we cover the bigger stories. For the last couple of days, those stories have been about steers. First, the big Australian steer Knickers. Then, the Canadian steer Dozer — bigger. Last night, we spoke with Dozer's owner, Karl Schoenrock, on a farm near Steinbach, Manitoba. He said the "gentle giant" is 6 feet 5 inches tall — that’s a whole inch taller than Knickers. You can see for yourself on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih. After that interview, we heard from you about one of the most contentious debates on “As It Happens” since the great pineapple pizza debate.

CO: RjMackenzie tweeted, "I have split loyalties on this most momentous of debates - I grew up in Manitoba, live in Australia." CommunistGamer1 suggested there's more going on than we realize — tweeting, "Dozer and Knickers are dating and are just using this feud as an excuse to send pics to each other". And on Twitter, someone named "Steve" imagined this scenario. Quote, "News executive screaming at interns: BIGGER BOVINES, HUGE HEFFERS, OUTRAGEOUS OXEN, MASSIVE MILKERS!"

JD: Jeff Woolston hinted at a possible, dual-country presidential bid. He tweeted, quote, "Big cow/bigger cow 2020". Another Jeff — Jeff Smyth — wrote, quote, "Perhaps this will bring 'Far Side' creator Gary Larson out of retirement." And after hearing about Dozer, Matt Swartz tweeted, "Okay...does this mean we're allowed to eat the other one then?"

CO: And finally, our favourite: Unseasonal Nic, in Ontario tweeted, "Oh god...please let the end of the 2018 news cycle just be a series of increasingly bigger cows."

JD: Oh, that would be so, so nice! We second that emotion, Mr. Unseasonal Nic. Thanks to everyone who got in touch. If you want to weigh in on anything you hear on this program, head to our Twitter or Facebook, both those accounts: @CBCAsItHappens. Give us a call: 416-205-56… Carol

CO: 87.

[Music: World music]

Marriot breach

Guest: Richard Gold

JD: If you made reservations at some point — you probably have serious reservations right now. Today, hotel company Marriott revealed that information from up to half a billion guests may have been compromised in the breach — which would make this cyber security breach one of the largest ever. The guest information was accessed through the booking system of Marriott's Starwood division of hotels. And according to the company, the unauthorized access goes all the way back to 2014. Now, the New York attorney-general's office is investigating. Richard Gold is the head of security engineering at Digital Shadows, a cyber-security firm. We reached him in London.

CO: Mr. Gold, how could someone, or some parties, have access to half a billion people's information and have it undetected?

CO: If the hackers were acting or they had clients who wanted this information for purposes of espionage or political purposes, what would have been interesting in this information for them? I would think the passport numbers in particular would be interesting politically, would it not?

RG: Absolutely. It gives you also quite a nice way to track people as they travel around the world. I would say the other thing that it gives you is the reservation information, so the time the person arrives and departs, and how long they're staying for. This is information which gives you quite good detail about the movements of particular people of interest for you as an attacker. So that could be something that would be really interesting, especially if you had — as it seems to be the case — a lot of this information. You could correlate things probably quite well I would imagine.

CO: So whoever was doing this could have had several clients?

RG: Exactly. Yes. There may be multiple reasons for why you would want to have access to this kind of data. And you know if they've had access for four years, exactly as you say, they could well be having multiple customers for this data. And some may be interested in payment card information, some may be interested in identity theft, and some may be interested in espionage.

CO: So half a billion people over four years. What should people do if they have stayed at a Marriott, or I guess this is the Starwood chain of hotels that has been acquired by Marriott in 2016. What should people do?

RG: Well, if you've been using the loyalty program, then that's something where you should be changing your password. If you've been using that program — the SPG program — they are offering free monitoring — free credit monitoring — for affected people. And keeping an eye on your own bank transactions, and making sure that there is no fraudulent transactions occurring — transactions that you don't recognize, transactions coming from places you wouldn't normally go to. For example, if you never go to a casino, and then suddenly, there is a casino transaction on your bank statement. However, more than that, it's difficult to really mitigate the fallout from something like this.

CO: And what's the Marriott doing on behalf of its of its customers at this point?

RG: So they have set up a core customer call centre, they have set up the credit monitoring. So they are trying to give a little bit ahead of the narrative I suppose in this sense. It seems that they are basically assuming that if you used the facilities in or in the last four years, then you have been affected in some case or in some way. It seems that they are not able to say at the moment what was taken for which people.

CO: And as far as what Marriott might do in the future, what should they be doing to shore up its security?

RG: In 2016, Marriot bought Starwood. And that acquisition should have gone through a pretty rigorous due diligence process. And the fact that the attackers were then still present in the network two years after the acquisition I think is pretty concerning. And I think it shows that they probably have quite a way to go in their security journey before that trust is going to be able to be rebuilt with their customers.

CO: We said in the introduction this is one of the probably one of the biggest security breaches in history. So how does it compare?

RG: Yeah, it's absolutely up there. We've seen similar things like Equifax, we've seen Yahoo, also very, very big breaches. But I think this one is particularly of concern because of things like the passport number and the payment card information. So yeah, it's a real beast.

CO: Yikes! All right, we'll leave it there, Mr. Gold. Thank you.

RG: No problem at all. My pleasure.

CO: Bye.

JD: Richard Gold is head of security engineering at the cyber-security firm Digital Shadows. We reached him in London.

[Music: Piano]

Einstein and god

JD: If you run into a member of the Red Hot Chili Peppers, you might say something like, "Your music has been a bottomless reservoir of wonder and a balm for my soul." Whereas if you're writing someone an email about the Red Hot Chili Peppers, you might say something like, "The Red Hot Chili Peppers are the worst." Did you lie to a Red Hot Chili Pepper to spare his feelings? Were you just cranky when you wrote the email to your friend? Both? Who knows! The answers to questions like these aren't as simple as they seem, especially when a genius is involved. For example, take two artifacts signed by Albert Einstein, genius. One, a Bible, was auctioned off today at Sotheby's New York. The other, a letter to a friend, will be auctioned off next Tuesday at Christie's, each with a message that contradicts the other. In 1932, Einstein gave that Bible to his wife's secretary. In it, he wrote, quote, "This book is an inexhaustible source of living wisdom and consolation." Unquote. And then, in 1954, 22 years later, Einstein wrote a letter to his friend, the philosopher Eric Gutkind. It's now known as the "God Letter", in it Einstein wrote, quote, "The word God is for me nothing but the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of venerable but still rather primitive legends." Unquote. So did Einstein's opinion change over those 22 years? Did he know the woman he gave the Bible to was devout, and just scrawled something he didn't believe for her benefit? Was he just in a bad mood in 1954? All of the above, none of the above, the answer is likely complicated. And it would take a genius — one in particular — to figure it out.

[Music: That Danny Elfman-like song]

Part three: Canada Supreme Court: Vice decision, wasp spider drone

Irish stutter

JD: Nick Prosser's stutter used to make his own name a challenge. But now you should see the New Zealander smile as it rolls right off his tongue — so long as he's using his improvised Irish tongue. Mr. Prosser told the Rotorua Daily Post he'd had the stutter all his life. Then, one day, he was trying out accents with a colleague. When he got to Irish, well, to quote Mr Prosser, "I tried the accent and then next thing we are having a long conversation with no stuttering. I couldn't believe it. I had been to so many speech therapists and doctors, and they never suggested this technique. I was like 'whoa — you just helped me stop stuttering.'" The Roturua Daily Post put up a brief video of Mr Prosser. He begins by describing his first 28 years with the stutter.

SOUNDCLIP

NICK PROSSER: It's been a really struggle with some conversation, the words don’t get out very well, and then some people treat you differently, and some people wait for you. Some people try saying the words for you. But now, speaking in my Irish voice, it's helped me a lot more, and I'm a lot more confident. And so it's like Good morning, how are you? My name's Nick, and when you have a stutter, and it's the hardest name to say to someone when you have a stutter. The hardest word is to say your name. Like when I meet up people in public, and I try I say my name, and if like nnnnnick. But now, with the Irish, Nick, Nick, Nick, Nick — easy, no worries.

JD: That was New Zealander Nick Prosser, speaking to the Rotorua Daily Post. Mr. Prosser credits the success of his accent to the fact of his mother's Irish roots.

[Music: Ambient]

Canada Supreme Court: Vice decision

Guest: Justin Safayeni

JD: After a long legal battle, the Supreme Court says a Vice reporter must hand over his notes to the police. The RCMP has been trying to get its hands on messages between Ben Makuch and an alleged Canadian member of ISIS. Mr. Makuch argued that turning over his research is essentially forcing him to act as a, quote, "agent of the state" — and that it will make it harder for journalists to do their jobs. We requested an interview with Mr. Makuch today, he didn't respond. He did put out a short statement on Twitter saying, quote, "I am profoundly disappointed in today's ruling, not just as an appellant in this case or a reporter, but as a citizen of Canada." Unquote. Ben Makuch did speak with us last year, after he lost his case at the Ontario Court of Appeal. Here is part of that interview, from our archives.

SOUNDCLIP

BEN MAKUCH: Everything I've had that was of interest to the public that I felt was a national security interest, or even just to society at large, I published. There's nothing secret that I have that tells me where Farah Mohamed Shirdon is in his Batcave in Raqqa. So you can only draw conclusions that this is the RCMP trying to prove charges against an individual on terrorism using my information to do so. And I think you know any journalist would say so. This is a complete violation of our roles in society. Mr. Shirdon would never have spoken to me if he knew that I was a police officer or an intelligence agency — or at least knowingly. The reason he spoke to me is that I'm a journalist. We enjoy a very wonderful position in society, especially Western democracy, where people from different strokes of life be it criminal, terrorists, whistleblowers in the government will come to us and give us information, and we're able to inform the public, so the public can make a better decision on how they want their governments to behave in a policy manner.

JD: From our archives, that was Vice journalist Ben Makuch speaking with Carol last year. Today, the Supreme Court ruled that the journalist must turn over his messages with an alleged ISIS member to the RCMP. Justin Safayeni is a lawyer who argued at the Supreme Court on behalf of a group of media organizations and advocacy groups in support of Ben Makuch's case. We reached him in Toronto.

CO: Mr. Safayeni, what do you think this decision will mean for journalists who are trying to persuade sources to talk to them?

JUSTIN SAFAYENI: Well, Carol, I certainly don't think it's going to make that task any easier. I think a lot of us who were involved within this case were hoping that the court would strengthen protections around records and communications between journalists and their sources. And that certainly did not happen.

CO: What was it the RCMP wanted from Ben Makuch?

JS: Well, my understanding is that they wanted all records relating to chats and logs of texts that Mr. Makuch had with a source over the Kik messenger platform.

CO: And this is with communications or whatever kinds of contact and information he exchanged with a man named Farah Mohamed Shirdon.

JS: That's my understanding, yes.

CO: Now, what was the argument for not turning over that material?

JS: The argument for not turning over the material was the state claimed to need this material for investigating Shirdon's alleged crimes, and for prosecuting Shirdon. The second point was that the state argued that the media's interest in these records was very low because, first of all, Shirdon was not a confidential source. In other words, he agreed to have his identity disclosed in the course of Vice's reporting. The contents of the actual messages were largely — or even entirely — published in the course of the reporting. So when it came to kind of balancing the interests of the media against the interests of law enforcement, the argument was of the interest of law enforcement outweighed the interest of the media in this case.

CO: The other curious thing is that this is called an information to obtain order, which is what the RCMP filed wanting this material from Vice, and from Ben Makuch. The RCMP filed that in 2015, but it's believed Mr. Shirdon has been killed since then. So why were the RCMP is still pursuing that information for a suspect that was probably deceased?

JS: Well, that's a good question. And I think one of the points that was argued before the Supreme Court was that there really is not a lot of value to this information in light of the fact that Shirdon is kind of at best in parts unknown, and very unlikely to come to Canada, and very unlikely to stand trial. So in terms of requiring this material to advance some sort of prosecution against him, the point was made that this is all very speculative right now. And at the very least, at this point in time, requiring the records to be produced doesn't really advance the state's interest.

CO: So do you think that the authorities — the police — wanted a precedent set? They wanted Supreme Court to rule possibly in their favour — which, of course, it has done. So they can compel journalists to release their documents more easily?

JS: I think it's fair to say that they view the issue a little bit differently than how I put it. They viewed it as gathering evidence in the course of investigating a crime. Not necessarily solely for the purposes of a prosecution. But one of the points that had been argued before the Supreme Court was, in this particular case, there's not a lot left to investigate. This isn't a situation where the records are required, for example, to figure out who committed a crime, or to potentially stop a crime from being committed, or to serve some sort of urgent public safety objective. In this situation, Mr. Shirdon had been charged; his identity was known. All that was really left is to gather further evidence for a prosecution. But from the Crown's perspective, as I say, I think they would say that this is not only for prosecution, but also for the purposes of simply investigating what occurred involving Mr. shirdon.

CO: And in the ruling the court recognizes the seriousness of journalists being seen to be participating or helping the police investigate crimes. They understand that's a serious concern worrying about the loss of credibility or impartiality. They say, but in this case, the material that the police were seeking was not confidential, was it? I mean everything was given to Ben Makuch with the interest of having it disclosed to the public. So what it seems the court is saying is that this is not a good test of whether or not it affects journalists if you if you compel them to turn over their information.

JS: Well look, I think you've hit the key point. The argument here was there was going to be a chilling effect because you're requiring a journalist, at the end of the day, to provide the state with information and records to use against their own source. And the argument was that that in and of itself is harmful to the ability of journalists to cultivate sources and gather news and ultimately report stories in the public interest. And I think the bottom line is that the court simply wasn't convinced about that.

CO: All right, we will leave it there. Mr. Safayeni, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

JS: Thank you.

JD: Justin Safayeni is a lawyer who argued at the Supreme Court on behalf of a group of media organizations and advocacy groups, in support of Vice journalist Ben Makuch. We reached Mr. Safayeni in Toronto.

[Music: Percussive]

AMA call-out

JD: So, CO, I've been going through the old AIH mailbag, and I found a few postcards here with questions from listeners. Would you be willing to answer a question or two?

CO: Okay.

JD: Yeah? Okay, here's one from an anonymous person. And the question is: "Do you like Jeff?"

CO: That’s really a question?

JD: That’s the question. It’s on there.

CO: Somebody sent that in?

JD: Do you like Jeff?

CO: Okay. Well, the answer is yeah, I like Jeff! He's great! It's a pleasure working with him. Thank you for writing. Thank you, Anonymous.

JD: That's great. Yeah. Oh, question Two, also from an anonymous person: "How much do you like Jeff?"

CO: Okay, wait a second. Where are you reading these?

JD: From the postcards.

CO: That’s the same postcard.

JD: No, it’s not. There’s a totally different postcard. Look, it just...has the same picture as the first one.

CO: It happens to be in your handwriting though.

JD: Fine, you obviously don't want to answer this important question from a concerned listener. But I hope you'll be more responsive next week, ok? When we’re on stage together at the Ask Me Anything event.

CO: Oh, ok. This is what this is leading up to.

JD: Well, yes.

CO: And maybe we’ll have question from…

JD: Anonymous people.

JD: Whether Carol likes Jeff.

CO: You can ask if Jeff likes Carol, or whatever you want. And it's a live onstage, and starting at 10 o'clock Eastern, and it’s hosted by Ali Hassan.

JD: Very funny guy! So send in a question for us. And if Ali asks your question, we'll send you some "As It Happens" swag — like a T-shirt or tote bag. And we’ve real people, Carol, who have already sent in postcards. But you can also send your questions via email — our addi is: aih@cbc.ca. Or you can also ask us anything on Twitter and Facebook, both those accounts: @CBCAsItHappens. Don’t look at me that way, Carol. It was a real question. Or you can leave us a voicemail by calling our Talkback line: 416-205-5687.

[Music: Ambient]

Wasp spider drone

Guest: Sam Straus

JD: It gets the spider to leave its home. It gets the spider to do its bidding— before it gets killed. Now, if that sounds dysfunctional, it kind of is, especially for the poor spider. But this newly discovered wasp gets exactly what it wants out of the deal. BC researchers have recently published a study on the wasp, and its controlling relationship with that spider in the Ecuadorian rainforest. The study was published in "Ecological Entomology", and Sam Straus is one of the authors. She's a PhD candidate in the department of zoology at the University of British Columbia. We reached her in Vancouver.

CO: Ms. Straus, let’s start with the spiders. How do they live when they're not being enslaved by wasps?

SAM STRAUS: So normally they will live in a large colony. They can even get up to 10,000 spiders in one colony. And they will all work together to build one large communal web. And they work together to eat the very large prey insects that you have in the Amazon. And normally these small spiders wouldn't be able to eat these large insects. But because they're social and they can all work together, this makes this type of food source successful.

CO: How unusual is it to have social spiders? To have spiders in colonies?

SS: It's very unusual. So there are about 40,000 species of spiders worldwide that have been described, and only 25 of those are considered social.

CO: But it's beneficial to them, right? This is how they function. They get their food better that way.

SS: Yes. But there's also a cost to being social. So, for example, these are all very inbred colonies. And so it's kind of a balance between the ill effects of inbreeding, and the benefits they get from working together.

CO: Ok. So how did the wasps take advantage of that then?

SS: So the wasp will find a colony and lay her egg on to a spider's back. And then the lava will just grow for a week or two. And then we think that they are injecting the spiders with a hormone or maybe a virus. But the exact mechanism isn't well understood just yet. But something they do triggers the spider to become a solitary individual, instead of a social individual. And so it leaves its colony, and then essentially builds a specialized cage for the wasp to develop in.

CO: And to what end? Why does the wasp want to take this spider out of the colony and build this other strange cocoon?

SS: The Amazon rainforest is a very dangerous place for a small insect, and these spiders are specialized in building really dense three-dimensional webs that can protect them from predators. And so we think that the wasp is using the spider to build a nice protective place. Because once this this cage of the spider builds for it is ready to go, it will kill the spider, and then build a cocoon that otherwise is completely unprotected. And it will be in this cocoon for about a week.

CO: And then what happens?

SS: And then after a week, the wasp will chew its way out of the cocoon, fly off to find a mate, and then the cycle continues.

CO: Could this wasp function without being able to take over the mind of this little spider?

SS: I don't think so. This group of wasps is very specialized. They're all parasitic. So we call them Paracitoids. And the difference there is that they need to kill their hosts to continue their life cycle. So these spiders are very small, and for the wasp to get enough food to store his energy for the next stage of development, it really just needs to take everything out of the spider.

CO: And we have done stories about parasitic wasps before. That's not unusual. But how unusual is it that they actually get the spider to do its will?

SS: For this particular group of wasps, they do specialize on spiders, and it's not very unusual that it causes a behavioural change in the spider. What's unusual here is this is the first case of the wasp infecting a social spider. And the interesting thing here is that it triggers the social individual to then act as though it's a solitary individual.

CO: You mentioned the Ecuadorian rainforest as being a particularly hostile place — very difficult obviously to live and survive. So how much time did researchers have to spend watching this spider in the midst of all this in order to get this research done?

SS: Well, my supervisor, she sent her graduate students to Ecuador every summer. There will usually be a group of us down there for two to three months every year. And this project was about six years in the making. It all started with one of our co-authors, who she was doing a completely unrelated project, and noticed a lot of the spiders had these larva on their back, and then just kind of started taking notes. And then a couple of years later, the first author on the paper he got very interested in it and started taking a much more detailed notes, and then he got me interested in it. And so this project was never our main focus for being down there. It was always just like a side project that more and more students in my lab I've got interested in. And eventually, we had enough to tell a story.

CO: And I understand you like it so much you've got a tattoo?

SS: I do, yeah. I had a little tradition where I would get a tattoo at the end of my field season, just to kind of document my time there, and this is a very important part of my life and my career. And up until this point I had never worked with something I thought was so, so interesting. And so with a combination of like a field guide and some photos that I took, the tattoo artist and I designed a really nice biologically accurate drawing of this of this wasp.

CO: Lovely! Ms. Straus, thank you.

SS: Yes, thank you very much.

CO: Bye.

SS: Bye.

JD: Sam Straus is a PTSD candidate at the University of British Columbia. We reached her in Vancouver.

[Music: Indie pop]

Vue Weekly

JD: Inside yellow boxes across Edmonton, you could always find a fresh copy of Vue Weekly. Today, however, the free arts and politics newspaper officially folded, after problems securing advertising money. Since 1995, Vue Weekly had been a mainstay. It was beloved for its willingness to push the envelope, and for giving the local arts scene a boost. On the website, Vue editors wrote, quote, "We're truly sorry to the artists, bands, chefs, filmmakers and disenfranchised people who will no longer get to tell their stories." Unquote. Adrienne Pan, host of CBC Edmonton's "Radioactive", spoke with Meaghan Baxter and Kevin Pennyfeather, two former Vue journalists. Here's part of their conversation.

SOUNDCLIP

KEVIN PENNYFEATHER: Well, I was still in journalism school, and I was looking for my first places to and a story. And I did some Fringe reviews for Vue. And then immediately after that, I was assigned to do a profile of Monster Pro Wrestling, which is our amateur wrestling ring promotion here in Edmonton, and it was crazy.

ADRIENNE PAN: Yeah. What did it mean for you as an emerging arts journalist to get that assignment?

KP: Well, I'd say the biggest thing… because at that point, I'd been doing a lot of writing, but that was the first big paycheck I'd gotten as a freelance writer. And to have that attribute to my name be finally able to say that yes, I am a professional at this point was pretty cool. It definitely felt rewarding to have a new audience that was reading my work.

AP: What is the closure of Vue mean for arts coverage in the city?

KP: I think it's going to be a really sad time at first. You know “Vue Weekly” did really thorough coverage of arts here in Edmonton. And was then gone, there will be a gap that I don't think can be immediately filled by blogs or social media and other social networks and those smaller platforms. I think it eventually will be replaced by something. But it's going to be a big gap. You're not going to know about these new exciting things that are happening right here in your city that you wouldn't know about otherwise because you're not the one that's falling that beat every single day, every single week for it.

MEAGHAN BAXTER: Yeah, I agree with everything Kevin said. I was exposed to so many different things during my tenancy that I wouldn't have known about otherwise. And I think it was such a platform for so many arts organizations in the community, and for up-and-coming musicians, and so many creative people in the city. And I think there is going to be a big gap there for a while.

AP: Picking up the “Vue Weekly” as paper, it kind of meant something to me rather than just looking for it online.

MB: Yeah, for sure. I mean I'm kind of old school that way too. I still love books and magazines and having something physical.

KP: Having that missing from the fronts of concert venues and the front of music stores — if people still go to them — is definitely going to be a big blow. And whatever comes next I don't think we'll look quite like that. But I hope that at least attempts to achieve the same kind of comprehensive coverage. It will take a while, but that's what the paper did. It covered everything, arts, music, food, dating, everything that you would want to know about your local culture was in there. And you're not going to find that from a Facebook group dedicated to a single band.

JD: That was former “Vue Weekly” journalists Kevin Pennyfeather and Meaghan Baxter, in conversation with Adrienne Pan, host of CBC Edmonton's “Radioactive”. Today was the Edmonton newspaper “Vue Weekly”'s last day on the stands.

[Music: Electronic]

Worst year

JD: You think things are bad in 2018? Well, if you go back in time, don't complain to your distant ancestors in the 6th century. They will not want to hear it. Researchers have determined the absolute worst year in history: 536 AD. Those unlucky enough to be alive in the mid-530's had a lot on their plates. Well, actually, not much on their plates at all — considering the volcanic eruptions that spewed a dark cloud that hung over much of the world for 18 months, and sent temperatures plummeting, destroying crops. Dark, cold, mass starvation — no Netflix. 536 checks all the depressing boxes. Needless to say, people on earth were pretty stoked when 537 rolled around. But they shouldn't have been. Yes, the ash cloud might have been fading -- but a round of bubonic plague was just around the corner! And humans were still many hundreds of years away from health care that didn't involve slapping on a leech and hoping for the best. So, next time you don't feel like things can get much worse, consider this: no matter how awful Twitter is, it's not a suffocating volcanic cloud. Not literally, anyway. And be a tiny bit more grateful for what you've got.

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November 30, 2018 episode transcript

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