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The AIH Transcript for January 18, 2019

Hosts: Carol Off and Karen Gordon

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello I'm Carol Off.

KAREN GORDON: Good evening. I'm Karen Gordon, in for Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

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KG: Tonight...

CO: Misleader of the free world. Sources say U.S. President Donald Trump directed his lawyer to lie before Congress, and if that's true, our guest says it's a crime beyond the shadow of a doubt.

KG: Unfree and uneasy. For weeks, Canada has been publicly fighting for the release of three men who've been detained in China -- but our guest has been fighting to get her husband released for 13 years.

CO: No fair, to hundreds of fares. Toronto police cracked down on a scam in which fraudulent taxi drivers allegedly stole millions by pulling some sleight-of-hand involving passengers' debit cards.

KG: Taken liberties. Matthew Hedges spent six months in solitary after he was convicted of spying in the UAE -- now he says his captors should be held to account, and that Canada is setting a good example.

CO: Revenge is a dish best served fast with fries. McDonald's takes on an Irish burger chain claiming trademark infringement, but after "Supermac's" wins -- congratulations are in every order.

KG: And do my ice deceive me? It probably do. Because if you think the stuff the Zamboni dumps outside your arena is clean, our guest will explain why you're wrong at length and ad nauseum. As It Happens. The Friday Edition. Radio that dips into his shavings account.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: If Trump told Cohen to lie, that's 'as serious as it could get' for the president: prosecutor

Trump-cohen lies

Guest: Elie Honig

KG: The allegations against Donald Trump have reached new heights -- and now things may be starting to teeter. BuzzFeed News is reporting that law enforcement sources told them about evidence that the President of the United States instructed his former lawyer to lie before Congress. That lawyer is Michael Cohen, who is now cooperating with the special prosecutor's investigation. The testimony was given under oath and it was about negotiations to build a Trump branded skyscraper in Moscow. The tower was never built. And the White House is calling this story "categorically false." But if proven, the alleged cover up could raise the stakes both for Mr. Trump and for his administration. Elie Honig is a former U.S. federal prosecutor. We reached him on the road in northern New Jersey.

CO: Mr. Honig from a prosecutor's point of view, how serious are these latest allegations for Donald Trump?

ELIE HONIG: So everything that we say regarding this story I think needs to be prefaced with the word 'if true.' If true, these charges are about as serious as it could get for President Trump. If this is proven out we have a clear cut example of the president committing a federal crime, I think multiple federal crimes in fact, while in office.

CO: Okay. So many times we have asked this question but here goes again -- so if true, would this be grounds for impeachment?

EH: So impeachment is a political question inherently. But of course impeachment under our Constitution is based on high crimes or misdemeanors. And so the question I think here is, if you have something that's provably a crime how could Congress not act on it? Now they're going to have to make the House of Representatives, and perhaps eventually the Senate, is going to have to make political calculations. And I think the consensus from what I gather before this is that there wasn't a whole lot of appetite for impeachment -- that history shows us that that tends to backfire sometimes on the impeaching party and sort of rally support to the person being impeached -- we're referring here specifically to the Bill Clinton situation. But there on the other hand there also comes a point where if you're a congressperson and you're faced with clear evidence that the president has committed a serious federal crime while in office, you're not doing your job if you're just turning your back on it.

CO: I just want to understand what exactly it is that Mr. Trump has done wrong here -- I mean what BuzzFeed is reporting that Donald Trump's long-time attorney Michael Cohen was instructed to lie to Congress about negotiations to build Trump Tower in Moscow. And the negotiations went on well into the campaign for president -- and this is something Mr. Trump has denied in the past, and now we're hearing from Michael Cohen possibly that it's true. So if Mr. Trump had instructed -- if that's breaking law, was it against the law for Mr. Trump to be pursuing the building of Trump Tower in Moscow?

EH: No, it was not necessarily against the law for Trump to be pursuing building that tower in Moscow -- there's actually nothing illegal about that. But what is illegal is a couple of things. First of all if he was part of any plan to lie to Congress about or to lie to federal investigators about it, that's the crime here. So the crime here would be in sitting down with Michael Cohen or in whatever format he did it, but instructing or encouraging or conspiring with Michael Cohen for him and perhaps others to give false testimony. The other thing I'd say is if this is true, this is all part of the bigger picture of collusion which could involve other crimes, conspiracy crimes, hacking crimes, crimes overseas -- for an election aide is a crime under our federal law to receive election aid from foreign interests. And so I think this Moscow project goes to the big question of the why of the collusion -- why did Donald Trump want to appease the Russians? Because he needed governmental approvals in order to build this monstrous skyscraper in Moscow. And why would the Russians want Trump to win? Because they felt that they had something on him, leverage, whether it was financial or otherwise I think there's still more to be learned. But this whole Moscow project thing -- not on its own inherently illegal, but certainly illegal to lie about it in official proceedings and certainly to go to the bigger picture of illegality under the heading of collusion.

CO: And I just want to understand a bit of a timeline here. I mean this business deal if it's true was still going on while Mr. Trump was campaigning for president -- he was telling Americans that he believed it was time to make nice with the Russians and need to patch up relations with them. What does that say if there was at the same time in the background these negotiations to build a hotel?

EH: Yeah the timing is crucial and goes really to the entire impetus to lie about it. The story that Michael Cohen told Congress, and apparently now according to today's reporting, is that there was a larger effort to tell the same false story that the president was telling the American public which is don't worry about this Moscow deal it was over as of January which is shortly before the Iowa caucus. But in fact it now turns out that that deal was still being conducted well into the campaign -- into at least June of 2016. So you can see why the president wouldn't want the American people to know he's in active negotiations to try to build in Moscow because that could potentially compromise him so Donald Trump certainly lied the American public about it -- and at least one of his handlers, Michael Cohen, lied under oath about it. So the question now is A) who else lied to Congress? And it looks as if Donald Trump Jr. may have told a similar lie. And B) who was in on the plan to come up with and execute this false story?

CO: The same time we heard Michael Cohen when he was pleading last November -- Mr. Trump said well you know what? At the time there was a good chance that I wasn't going to win -- in which case I would have gone back into business, so why should I lose lots of opportunities?

EH: Yeah I think he was trying to have it both ways. I think he was A) trying to generate as much business for himself and his private company as he could -- but B) not pay a political price for it. And that's where the lie comes in.

CO: If he actually believed -- as many people did, that he was not going to become the president, he wasn't going to win, then he was using the opportunity to try and -- well -- do to improve relations with or at least appear to be improving relations with Moscow to his own ends.

EH: Sure and I think that explains why he's been so reluctant leading up to and even during his presidency to separate himself from his personal business financial holdings. And I think that's probably what was partially on his mind in the run up to the 2016 election. Remember he was an underdog right up until the night of the election. And so I think in his view it is, if I'm unlikely to win this thing -- why would I compromise my business? In fact why don't I try to capitalize on my business in the meantime?

CO: President Trump has responded to this latest story in BuzzFeed -- he tweeted that Michael Cohen is quote "just lying to reduce his jail time." How might Mr. Cohen's credibility problems affect the value of any evidence he has to offer?

EH: Yeah it's all going to come down to credibility here. Michael Cohen absolutely does have credibility problems. He's a known liar. He's pled guilty to several counts that involve dishonesty and false statements. So look this is a problem that prosecutors have to deal with all the time. When you have a cooperating witness, they are by definition somebody who's been involved in crimes and you need to be able to establish their credibility. Part of that comes from the person itself. And you kind of have to play the hand you're dealt. But the real important part of that comes from the corroborating evidence. And here I think we have some indications that Mueller has significant evidence that backs up what Michael Cohen told him. The BuzzFeed story today references that Mueller has documents, emails, texts -- those can be very powerful pieces of evidence. And Muller even suggested in his sentencing letter from Michael Cohen that he has other evidence showing that this was a broader scheme to obstruct justice. This wasn't just Michael Cohen deciding on his own to tell a lie but it was part of a coordinated scheme to do this.

CO: All right. We will leave it there and obviously be following this. Mr. Honig I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

EH: Thanks very much. Any time.

CO: Bye bye.

EH: Take care. Bye bye.

KG: Elie Honig is a former U.S. federal prosecutor. We reached him on the road in northern New Jersey.

[Music]

Taxi debit scam

Guest: Ryan O’Conner

KG: Each one probably seemed like a normal cab ride -- but the people in the back seat had no idea the people in the front were holding all the cards. Yesterday, Toronto Police issued a warning to potential taxi passengers about a debit card scam that is so far defrauded the city's riders of millions of dollars. Police have arrested five people they believed are involved. They're facing 260 charges relating to identity theft. And the police are warning that there are more scammers out there in the Toronto area. Ryan O'Conner is the lawyer who works downtown. He's painfully aware of how this scam works. We reached him in Toronto.

CO: Ryan what happened to you when you grabbed a cab?

RYAN O'CONNER: Well I grabbed a cab at the end of October. I was riding the streetcar after a meeting in the evening and the streetcar was quite congested, so I thought I'd just get a cab but I realized that my phone had died so I couldn't get a ride share -- I had to get a cab. And I flag one down. I got in the cab, the cab driver was quite talkative and I spoke to him as I was heading home for dinner -- so two kilometres from where I was picked up. And the cabbie went to drop me off and I immediately tried to get out of the cab thinking it was a ride share because I always use the ride shares -- I had one foot out of the cab not realizing that of course it was not a ride share. So I told him that I wanted to pay by debit. He got a remote machine ready. I inserted my card. He did have the machine in his possession at one point with my card in it -- I entered my pin, pressed okay for a receipt, and I was on my way.

CO: Okay so that seemed like a normal transaction. When did you figure out -- when did you first find out that there was something wrong?

RC: Well the next afternoon I went to buy a coffee during a workday -- I used my debit card to pay for the coffee and I tried to enter my pin and it didn't work -- and I've had the same pin for a number of years so I thought that was unusual. And I re-entered it two more times and it still didn't work, and I was a bit frustrated at that point. I removed the debit card from the point of sale machine and it was the same colour as my bank card -- it was the same card as my bank -- but I looked at the rear of the card and it was someone else's signature. So at that point I put two and two together and I looked at the last transaction that I had done the night before, and remembered it was the cab -- and I thought well at that point my card has been swapped.

CO: Card was swapped -- you immediately understood that even before the police explain to you what had happened.

RC: That's correct. I looked at the back and it was someone else's signature -- so I put two and two together and that's what immediately came to mind.

CO: Okay so how much money were you out by that point?

RC: It was about 4,100 dollars -- at the coffee shop at which I was buying my coffee I immediately went on my app on my phone to see whether or not there were any inappropriate transactions and that morning there were ATM withdrawals, purchases at various grocery stores, and department stores -- and it was 4,100 dollars that I was ultimately defrauded of.

CO: Did you get any of that recovered?

RC: It took about two and a half weeks. The bank did ultimately reimburse me for all of the fraudulent transactions.

CO: What did the bank tell you about this?

RC: They told me that it is more widespread than just with me. I immediately reported the fraud to the bank the day I realized and the bank had reviewed some records -- I gave him the card which was ultimately obviously not my card, and they told me that that card had actually been reported stolen the day before. So it appears as a sort of a chain reaction -- once your card gets swapped you know the nefarious taxi drivers using it for the next fraudulent transaction. So they did indicate it was a bit more widespread.

CO: Police have now explained how it works -- what they actually do, how they swap it out. Because they've got to get your PIN numbers as well, right, so how did they do that?

RC: Well I assume it happened -- you know I've read what the police have said, but I assume it happened when I handed over the machine -- that's when the card presumably got swapped. And from what I understand reading the police reports and the press, that the machine itself actually obtains your PIN data -- it seems that somehow the fraudsters are able to take that from the machine and ultimately use it to withdraw money from your account. The driver never indicated to me that there was any problem in the machine -- it didn't appear that there was. But if I recall correctly, I believe it was when I sort of -- he handed the machine to me and then I handed it back with my card in it. You know he was setting it up and entering the, it appears, you know the amount of the transaction and then I got it back. So he did at one point have it in his hand. It may have been a professional, who knows, but it would have been very quick because there wasn't a lot of time when he had the machine in his hands.

CO: And it looks so familiar to you that you were using it in a coffee shop and didn't even notice that it wasn't your card.

RC: It looked identical to mine. It was the same bank, the same colour, the same version of card. Everything about it was identical.

CO: Oh that's clever. And so now there have been so many people like yourself who have been defrauded this way. So now police have five people in custody, what do you make of that?

RC: Well I'm happy to hear that there are arrests. I'm sort of unhappy to hear that that this might just be the tip of the iceberg. The fact that millions of dollars have been defrauded from persons just in the GTA alone suggests to me that this is a much broader operation than simply you know three or four individuals who are arrested, so I hope that the taxi companies continue to take this seriously -- it appears that the police are quite obviously taking it seriously with the arrest, but it appears to me that this is the tip of the iceberg, and if so, that's really problematic.

CO: And what does this do for the taxi industry? My gosh they are already -- with all the ride sharing -- so many of them are saying we just can't make a go anymore, they've lost so many customers, so what does this do to their reputation?

RC: It could be the veritable nail in the coffin -- certainly for me, I'll never ever again take out a credit card or a debit card if I'm forced to use a taxi. You know it behooves cab companies, it behooves the police to continue to be diligent about making sure that these fraudsters are taken off the roads.

CO: We should tell people that the Toronto Police are warning people that you never leave your card in one of those machines unintended -- you never pass it back, you take it out of the machine. Do you have any other advice?

RC: I'd say as much as possible don't ever take out your cards in a taxi -- and take ride share whenever you can because that's sort of I think a very fraud proof way of getting through your ride. It's most unfortunate -- you know most of my transactions with cab drivers in my life they've been honest, friendly, some of the best conversations you have in the GTA are with you know the guys who are traditional taxi cabs driving around making a living out of it. But this is a responsibility not of those honest drivers, this is really a responsibility of the cab companies to crack down on this -- to make sure that the ID that's displayed in the back of the cab is actually the ID of the person who is operating the cab -- and that has nothing to do with those drivers, it has everything to do with the industry. The industry needs to crack down on this.

CO: Ryan it was good to talk to you. Thank you.

RC: Thanks a lot Carol. Take care.

KG: Ron O'Conner is a lawyer who was defrauded in a taxi debit card scam. He's in Toronto.

[Music]

Supermac's vs. McDonald's

Guest: Pat McDonagh

KG: It was a serious beef related beef. In 2015, the American burger giant McDonald's brought a suit against a much smaller Irish fast food chain -- that chain is called Supermac's. And Mickey-D's argued that that name and some of the restaurant's menu items, infringed on its Big Mac trademark. But this week the Golden Arches are more like fallen arches because the European Union Intellectual Property Office ruled against McDonald's and revoked all rights to the words "Big Mac" -- together, in all caps, as they relate to goods or restaurants across the EU. Pat McDonagh is the founder and managing director of Supermac's. We reached him in Galway, Ireland.

CO: Mr. McDonagh congratulations on your trademark win.

PAT MCDONAGH: Thank you. As I say it's been going on for quite a while. Initially our application for registration of the trademark Supermac's is over four years ago -- and you know this current application has started two years ago so it's a continuing process.

CO: But you've actually won against one of the biggest fast food corporations in the world. How do you feel about taking down Big Mac all across Europe?

PM: Well let's be honest with you, I suppose it probably would never have happened had they not objected to our registration for the Supermac trademark. And the basis of their registration was it would create some confusion with customers as to which restaurant they were in -- even though we have a totally different logo, totally different decor, totally different food offering. So they applied to block our registration under the Big Mac brand -- and the EU trademark office declined that after giving it some considerable consideration because they felt that it wasn't a genuine application -- because basically the Big Mac is a burger, it is not restaurant chain -- where as you know the restaurant chain is a different name from the Big Mac.

CO: What does it mean it wasn't the genuine application? I mean Big Mac's been around for 50 years. What does it mean that they didn't prove genuine use of the trademark across the EU?

PM: It wasn't so much genuine use of the trademark Big Mac as a burger, it was use of the Big Mac brand as a restaurant service or a food service. They have re-registered the Big Mac as a burger, but it was revoked as a restaurant service because that's not what it is used for -- it's a brand of a product. So if they wanted to use their restaurant brand they should have used the name McDonald's to object to Supermac's but they didn't -- they used the Big Mac.

CO: You have said elsewhere that you say McDonald's engages in trademark bullying. What do you mean by that?

PM: Well that's where a company registers a lot of trademarks -- up to 1000 trademarks on brand names -- so it was in their case McCountry, McFamily, McInternet -- they even registered our brand SnackBox which is a product brand of ours. And that's where a company sometimes [inaudible] if you want to put those names -- in order to use them again should anyone apply for that trademark then they can say oh no that's already registered. So what EU decided in a landmark decision was that unless you use the trademark name, then you're going to lose it -- so I suppose use it or lose it. And if it's not used within five years then anybody has the option of looking for that trademark.

CO: But it's not like you came along -- you're not a Johnny-come-lately on this. You've had your Supermac restaurants since 1978 Ireland. So first of all maybe tell us where the name came from, Supermac's?

PM: Well back in the day I used to play a bit of Gaelic football and I played for the college which was a boarding school in Ireland in the Carmelite College in Moate -- and I used to play centre back. And after one of my better games, the guys on the sideline christened me "Supermac." So really I suppose that's where the name came from and when I got into the fast food business it was a natural kind of progression to use that name. Now there had been another Supermac who was an English soccer player actually prior to that -- his name was Malcolm MacDonald as it turns out and he played for both Arsenal and Newcastle United and he played for England and still holds the record to this day I think has been the only player who scored five goals for England in an international so that's how the name came about.

CO: And what do you sell at Supermac's?

PM: Basically we sell chicken products, burger products, pizza, and ice cream, so we have quite a varied menu. Because we started from small beginnings in rural areas, we had to provide a wider menu because our market was only a small town of about 4000 people and [inaudible] another four and a half or 5000. So we had to get those customers in repeatedly during the week to survive.

CO: Now you're going across Europe -- you must be happy that Ireland is part of the European Union at this point.

PM: Yes this is the advantage of the European Union -- and so far as if you have an issue then you can take it to the European trademark office which actually happens to be located in Alicante, Spain. And you get kind of a fair hearing. And obviously in this case you know it was a landmark judgment because normally you don't expect the David versus Goliath situation for the smaller parties to win out.

CO: It's quite extraordinary. But now McDonald's says that they are currently considering their position. Doesn't seem like they're going to give up against Supermac without a fight and they've got deep pockets.

PM: Well you know that's their prerogative to decide what to do, but I don't think they have anything really to appeal against because they have already re-registered the Big Mac as a product trademark and they have no really reason to continue and persevere objecting to us because we have already reapplied to have Supermac's trademarked as a food service item. We did -- in our previous application they did grant us a trademark for Supermac's but not for food service, but now I think the door has been pretty much opened that we can proceed with that. And I'd be optimistic to be able to get that in the not too distant future.

CO: Well again this is quite an accomplishment Mr. McDonagh. I appreciate speaking with you thank you.

PM: Thank you very much.

CO: Bye bye.

PM: Bye bye now.

KG: Pat McDonagh is the founder and managing director of Supermac's restaurants. We reached him in Galway, Ireland. And there's more on that story on the As It Happens website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

And the prize is…

KG: If you win the lottery, what happens after the photo-op with the giant novelty cheque? Do you tuck it into your giant novelty wallet, take it to the giant novelty bank? Tyler Heep of Des Moines, Iowa, wanted to know. And recently had a rare opportunity to find out. After hitting the jackpot with a scratch ticket, he drove to the headquarters of the Iowa Lottery -- got his photo taken with a giant novelty cheque, and gave an interview to his local TV station. Here's what he told W.H.O. -TV in Des Moines.

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TYLER HEEP: They decided to treat me like just a million dollar winner. You know the guy came down the stairs, and took me to the back room where the camera was with the Iowa Lottery logo in the background. And sure off they wrote me the 1-dollar cheque and had me hold it up for the camera and took a picture.

KG: So Tyler Heep's curiosity is satisfied and he's taken the giant novelty cheque to the normal sized bank where the teller looked at him in confusion -- because you heard him right, Tyler Heep won one dollar on that scratch ticket, but he still went to the lottery HQ and requested that big dramatic cheque and officials were apparently happy to oblige even if they probably lost money on the deal. Mr. Heep says he subsequently spent his winnings on half a gallon of gas. And he may not have improved his financial standing with his tiny payout, but he did do something hilarious. So you know in the lottery, as in life, small victories.

[Music]

Part 2: Blood, puke and spit: Why skating rink ice piles could be a biohazard

Detained Canadians in China

Guest: Kamila Celil

KG: John McCallum says the Prime Minister will call President Xi when the time is right. Canada's ambassador to China was in Ottawa today. He was there to brief MPs on his efforts on behalf of three Canadians to have been detained, and the other has been sentenced to death -- after the arrest of a Chinese executive last month in Vancouver. The opposition Conservatives have been demanding that Mr. Trudeau pick up the phone. Mr. McCallum says that will have to come after a lot of delicate diplomatic work.

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JOHN MCCALLUM: My priority as I have said several times, my top priority by far, is to secure the release of these two Canadians and the life of the third. And so I think it's debatable sometimes exactly, what is the best tone? What is the best strategy in order to achieve these objectives? But I think everything we do has to be guided by the fact that the top priority is the release of these individuals. And I should say there are other consular cases in China that are private and I want to assure the families of those other consular cases that we are equally working on their situations because there is a risk. If all the talk is about these two, how do the families of the other ones think? So I want to assure them that their family members have not in the slightest been forgotten -- that our consular people are working very hard not just on two individuals whose names are in the news but on all of the consular cases that we are dealing with.

KG: Canada's ambassador to China John McCallum speaking today to reporters in Ottawa. Huseyin Celil is a Canadian citizen and a Uyghur Muslim who has been detained in China for 13 years. Kamila Celil is his wife. We reached her in Burlington, Ontario.

CO: Kamila we just heard Canada's ambassador to China say that he wants all the families to know that they have not been forgotten, that they are equally working on your case, how did you react when you heard that?

KAMILA CELIL: Well I surprised you know. I surprised. If they are working equally but what he didn't mention my husband's case -- saying Celil's case.

CO: Do you believe the Canadian government is working as he says, as John McCallum says, that he is working just as hard to get the release of your husband as he has to these other people, these high profile cases that are in the news?

KC: Yeah -- you know I really appreciate Canadian government and what they have done since 2006. So you know it's 13 years now for my husband -- he's in prison in China. But they haven't done enough. I haven't seen any positive because he doesn't have consular access yet.

CO: And so you are saying he has had no -- no Canadian official has been to see him?

KC: No -- he doesn't have any service, any Canadian service. You know he's a Canadian citizen and he's holding Canadian passport. He doesn't have any Canadian services.

CO: You know that the response to that is that the Canadian government can't get access to him because the Chinese government says he has dual citizenship and they don't recognize that -- they recognize him only as a Chinese citizen.

KC: Well yes but you know Canada needs to stand up. They should give more little pressure you know to give little hard message you know to stand up -- they are Canadian. Now we are seeing two or three detainees in China -- they are giving death penalty, it's miserable. I think they have to bring the ambassador back from Beijing and then they have to do strong messages. Justin Trudeau needs to speak face to face with the Chinese president.

CO: Your husband is a Uyghur Muslim. And we know that there is, especially in recent years, a tremendous crackdown on their rights -- there is these massive re-education camps that have been reported. It's pretty awful for Uyghurs right now in China. Your husband was arrested in 2006 and accused of terrorism. He wasn't even in China. He was in Uzbekistan and dragged back there to China where he's been ever since. Have you seen him in those 13 years? Have you had any contact with him?

KC: No I haven't. I haven't seen him. I don't have any communication with him. I don't have any contact because China is refusing. We were asking to contact like online or the phone calls, but they were rejecting all the time. But his family they would see him every six months, once or twice a year. But it was not enough. And right now I have just cut off his family -- three years now I don't have any communication with his family. Even I don't know where are they you know? They are in the camp? Or they in the prison? I don't have any idea of what's going on and it's been horrible.

CO: So it's possible that even his family now has disappeared under this crackdown against Uyghurs in China?

KC: Yeah. You know they are -- what they are [inaudible] they are brainwashing for the [inaudible] rules.

CO: This past month has been extraordinary with this tit-for-tat as they're calling it. We saw the arrest of this Huawei -- this Chinese executive, Meng Wanzhou arrested in Vancouver, and the fallout from that which is the arrests of other Canadians. What was going through your mind as you were watching what happened in this past month?

KC: Yeah she was arrested in Vancouver and then she's Chinese but I don't know, she's a Canadian citizen? I don't have any idea, because I didn't watch or read the full news you know. But she has -- I know she's in Canada, she's now in free country, a democracy country, which is the best country in the world. She has full access open court. She has media on the court. She has a lawyer you know. Chinese ambassador they are visiting her. Family are visiting -- calling. But China not doing that kind of things for the Canadian citizens.

CO: We've seen -- the men who have been arrested since, Canadians who are in the news, Mr. Spavor, Mr. Kovrig -- being detained after that arrest. What has it meant to you to see the big case being made -- the campaign to get them released?

KC: You know I saw so many medias, publicity. You know they were raising -- they were bringing down the newspaper. And I said well this is my husband. He's a Uyghur Muslim you know. And where is my husband's name? And why they are not -- they don't want to raise -- and why the government don't want to you know sending the delegation? Because they have sent delegation already for that two Canadians.

CO: And so do you think that's unfair?

KC: Of course unfair. Of course. I'm not saying they didn't do nothing, but maybe this time is they have to ask his release -- not consular access, not about his families they want to see his family and then talk, are they visiting him or not -- I don't want that [inaudible] anymore. Now it is 13 years -- my boys are teenagers, you know they grown up now, they need their father to come back.

CO: There's an interview with you in 2012 when it was the Stephen Harper government and you were very frustrated then -- you didn't feel that they were trying hard enough to get your husband's release. Did you think things would be different with the Liberal government?

KC: I was hoping maybe Trudeau he is going to do more, he's going to ask his release. It's easy to bring up human rights issues, but to ask for his release -- he hasn't mentioned his name with the Chinese authorities to ask for his release.

CO: What do you want Canadians to know about what's happening to your husband?

KC: Well you know now it's so hard in China -- even I don't know what's going on, he's in prison or concentration camp? We don't have any information. And I want Canadians to know more aware of you know to give pressure to the Canadian government to ask his release.

CO: Well it sounds like John McCallum is saying that he is doing that.so we will hold him to that. Ms. Celil I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

KC: Thank you.

CO: Take care. Bye bye.

KG: Kamila Celil is the wife of Husyein Celil, a Canadian citizen and Uyghur Muslim -- who's been detained in China for 13 years. We reached Ms. Celil in Burlington, Ontario.

[Music]

The Rock

KG: Motorists in Leduc, Alberta, do not appreciate the rock. And while Don Getschel isn't exactly celebrating its existence, there's no question it's good for business. Mr. Getschel is the owner of Oil Country Towing. And he's been kept very busy because drivers keep getting stuck on a large boulder in a local parking lot. He spoke with CBC Edmonton reporter Andrea Ross about the rock and the fitting name he's given it.

SOUNDCLIP

DON GETSCHEL: We probably go there a couple of times a week during the winter time -- and in the summer, at least three or four times. And it's so much to the fact -- like there is the Shell station there -- we actually carry Shell fleet cars -- that's where we get our fuel. And there's been times where our operators are sitting there, getting fuel, and it happens in front of them. One of my operator's who I was talking to this afternoon said that he watched somebody -- they were obviously looking at their phone, take a right turn way too sharp and ended up on top of the rock. Just because I think it's just low enough that it's out of peripheral vision, and if you are distracted like looking around trying to figure out where you're going, I could see how it can easily be missed. There's a Leduc rant on Facebook and it seems every other day they are like, oh the rock's got another victim. I'm surprised no one has named it yet.

ANDREA ROSS: What would you name it?

DG: "The Money Maker" for me. [Laughter] It can do all sorts of damage -- if you have a bigger vehicle like a truck, you could damage your undercarriage. If you have a smaller vehicle like a car, all of the vehicles nowadays all have polyurethane bumpers so you're going to crack them, scratch them, rip them off. I've even seen like we had a car that got on there, decided they'd get it off themselves and they ended up -- the rock took their bumper.

CO: That was Don Getschel the owner of Oil Country Towing describing the rock he's nicknamed The Money Maker to CBC Edmonton.

[Music]

Biohazard ice

Guest: Terry Piche

KG: Outside every arena in Canada, you'll find a huge pile of snow. And in the summer -- and in the snow barren towns during the winter -- those piles of ice scrapings can look pretty inviting. You may have even slid down one or two on a crazy carpet, or toboggan, or imagined making a refreshing flavourless snow cone. But the Ontario Recreation Facilities Association wants you to think twice before touching that snow and ice -- let alone eating it, because they say it's full of biohazards. Terry Piche is the Association's Technical Director. We reached him in Hull, Quebec.

CO: Mr. Piche why are you warning people not to go near these piles of Zamboni snow outside of rinks?

TERRY PICHE: Well I'm not sure if warning is the right word but we definitely want the general public to be aware of the potential hidden hazards that are inside these snow piles that are found outside of traditional ice rinks from coast to coast.

CO: So why not? What is in that ice pile -- those ice shavings from the Zamboni that are so suspect?

TP: Well anybody that goes to an ice rink sees what goes on there on any given day or turns on the television and watches a hockey game. And then what you end up seeing is players spitting on the ice. And then there's all kinds of things that go on behind the scenes. People will regurgitate and they will blow their nose, and all these things end up on the ice surface. Then we scrape them up the ice re-surfacer and they look like a nice great big snow cone and we dump them outside and they become an attraction for people to come and play in. Extreme situations have had -- I don't if this is going to be disgusting to some of your listeners -- but ultimately we've had our members share stories where catering trucks who are trying to save a couple of dollars instead of buying crushed fresh ice will actually go to the rink in the morning and collect it and put it in their trucks and put their sandwiches on it.

CO: No! [Laughter]

TP: Yes. And we've had minor hockey parents who believe that they're doing something really nice by cutting up fresh fruit and spreading them along the top of the snow shavings to keep them nice and cool -- sandwiches and the drinks, so the kids come along and in fact end up using them.

CO: Okso. So in your press release you list the things that are believed to be lurking in the biohazards, lurking in these ice shavings. You mentioned nasal secretions, spit, vomit, blood, urine. Really?

TP: Yes. I mean extreme conditions but you need to appreciate the antics of some people that go into the sporting events and they will over consume liquids and then they will go to an ice surface and they all get crushed in the boards and their bladders will relieve themselves. It's a little bit of a mess that occurs from time to time. I wouldn't tell you that it's a common occurrence but these are things that potentially are out there and could end up in the snow piles.

CO: See I thought that you were going to tell me that little kids sometimes lose it, but you're talking about grown people.

TP: Yeah they'll regurgitate -- they will over-eat before a competition, could be nerves, and they'll end up throwing up a little out on the ice surface also. Again these are extreme conditions but what we want the general public to know is that even though it looks nice and clean and nice and neat pile, the reality of biohazards that are most likely lurking in these piles is real.

CO: Okay so in addition to the snot, the spit, the vomit, the urine, the blood, you say you have oil, grease, rust, all kinds of things mixed in, right?

TP: Well you need to appreciate the piece of equipment that your listeners would refer to as a Zamboni which is technically called an ice-resurface -- some of this equipment is old and they are a moving piece of machinery that requires grease and oil, so that will get mixed in. And if the machine happens to be leaking for whatever reason then that'll end up in the pile also.

CO: One of the concerns you have when you put this in the release is that kids play in this, in these snow banks, right? What are you worried about there?

TP: Well again I don't want to have a massive hysteria that there's a major problem with them but you need to appreciate it -- it wouldn't be the equivalent of allowing a child to play in a toilet. I mean in the end of the day you've got a whole series of biohazards that are going to go through a whole season -- that they are going to continue to lurk inside these piles and with the fluctuation of the temperatures are going to be cold and they're going to be warm and are going to be melting, they're going to bond to each other, so we're all adults -- at the end of the day we know that children get into these piles and they will put their hand in it especially in the warm months when we start to put ice in the early summer months -- in June, July -- and the piles are out there, they'll be out there, and they'll be scooping this snow up and regrettably some of them will be eating it.

CO: This is so disgusting.

TP: It is.

CO: And you say that also -- people actually take some of this stuff home -- they'll load it and take it home so the kids can play with it in their yard.

TP: Yes. Part of the reason that we took out our awareness and we wanted the general public to be more up-to-date in regards to potentially what lurked in there because it seemed this past Christmas period with the changes in the weather patterns, there has been more and more people that were seeking out the traditional holiday type festivities and were out there getting the snow from the local rink and you know putting it on their front porches or allowed their kids to play with it in the front yard. So they were basically going on what's a private property and scavenging -- not thinking that there was a problem with it in wanting to have a traditional Christmas --and ultimately they were bringing stuff home that they probably should not be bringing home. So we'll have colleges that will drop by for festivities on the weekend, fill up their coolers, and put their drinks inside the coolers thinking that they're saving themselves a few dollars on crushed ice and not even understanding what potentially could be in there.

CO: So you're putting out a warning about this. What should the arenas be doing? I mean should they be putting signs up like we have on the beach when you say "do not swim in this water" -- we should say "do not play in the snow?"

TP: Well our association has been recommending to our members that we have a responsibility to let the general public know that in fact the potential for these type situations existing are real. So we have been recommending that they place signs but it's left for every building to figure out if in fact the risk is real and then take appropriate action. So there is no legal requirement to sign it, but it would be diligent for anybody that runs an ice rink to in fact let the general public know they should not be in the area, playing it, or taking it.

CO: Are you recommending as well as they should put up fences or something?

TP: Well we have had some members who have been very proactive that in fact do corral the shavings and lock them up, so they are fenced in areas that they go in and they dump and then the gate is locked behind. So it does eliminate the opportunity for the general public to get access to it. So these are on a case by case basis. In the province of Ontario and across Canada public health departments will be all different, so they'll have their own mandates. So the public health departments usually respond to the general public's concern. So from time to time we'll have public health inspectors who are proactive and they will talk to facility management with regards to their concerns for the public safety. So sometimes this is what prompts the facility to take more action than what the other neighbours would.

CO: Okay. Meanwhile the warning is and we're putting it out: do not go sledding in that Zamboni snow.

TP: Exactly.

CO: Mr. Piche thank you.

TP: Carol, it's been fun. Take care.

KG: Terry Piche is the technical director for the Ontario Recreational Facilities Association. We reached him in Hull, Quebec. Now we want to hear from you on this story: what about your local arena? Have you ever used ice shavings for something you now regret after hearing that interview or seen someone else doing it? Does your arena fence in its icy biohazard? And will you think twice next time you mix that frozen margarita outside the rink? Give us a call 416-205-5687. Or email us: aih@cbc.ca.

[Music]

Part 3: British academic jailed 7 months in U.A.E. fights to clear his name

Matthew Hedges

Guest: Matthew Hedges

KG: Matthew Hedges isn't done with Abu Dhabi. Last year the British academic was convicted of spying on the United Arab Emirates and sentenced to life in prison. Then after more than six months in solitary confinement and a tireless public campaign by his wife Daniela Tejada, Mr. Hedges was pardoned and sent home. Now Mr. Hedges is in the United States and he's demanding that the Emiratis acknowledge his innocence and take responsibility for what he endured while in detention. Matthew Hedges joined us from the CBC studio in New York.

CO: Matthew you're asking the United Arab Emirates to acknowledge your innocence and their responsibility for what you went through. What do you mean by that? What is it that you want?

MATTHEW HEDGES: I would like them to admit and to be honest as to what happened during my detention -- and to acknowledge the lack of evidence that they charged me with, so that I can be cleared because whilst I was lucky enough to be given a presidential pardon I'm still convicted falsely of being a spy. And so it's imperative that this gets cleared to show that the process wasn't right, the process wasn't correct, and that we can all move on.

CO: We covered this story as many many other news outlets did -- talking to people who could tell us what was going on, what they thought was going on at the time of your arrest and your detention, but this is the first chance we have to find out from you what happened. Can you just take us back to that time and explain?

MH: Sure. So I was in the UAE on a two week research trip for my Ph.D. and I was at Dubai International Airport. My mother was with me. I had checked my bags in and I took for a quick coffee. And I approached the immigration desk where I was then greeted by about 10 to 15 security officials from the UAE and they told me that I was under arrest. Then they said well you are not really under arrest, but we want to speak to you. Then I asked me if there was a case against me. They couldn't confirm there was a case or an investigation. But fundamentally I had no other choice but to go with them. They told me later on that they'd actually arrested me too soon and they wanted to have arrested me after I passed through immigration which at that point no one would have known where I had gone -- it was only because my mother was with me that the embassy and a lawyer that I'd initially instructed were able to know what happened.

CO: They accused you of all kinds of things -- of being a spy for MI6, the British spy agency. They said you had a dual identity -- you were doing two different jobs, you were there with two professions. Is that the case? Were you just doing your academic work?

MH: Yeah just doing my academic work completely.

CO: And they had you sign a confession or they said that you had signed a confession, what did actually happen?

MH: Yes I signed confessions. So this was in the first six-seven weeks of my detention -- seven weeks I believe. I routinely asked for a lawyer. I wasn't allowed a lawyer. I was held in solitary confinement. I was threatened with torture. I was threatened with life imprisonment. You know it was a very dark period. And this led to my mental health deteriorating quite badly to the point where I became suicidal and had thoughts of self-harm. I'm now dependent on medicine. And it was during this period that I made those confessions and statements because I felt helpless. I felt like I had no other option and choice. In the same facility I was being held I heard people being tortured. They said if you didn't go along with what we said we will treat you in a very different way. And so I thought you know they have nothing against me if they're willing to follow through with these actions -- if they don't want to listen to the truth, I'm just going to tell them whatever they want to hear because they said that I'll be let free and I would just be deported and everything would be over quite quickly. So I trusted them and I went along with what they said.

CO: We often hear stories of people in these kinds of detentions who are being forced to sign confessions or to confess to things and under tremendous duress -- it's difficult for anyone who has not gone through that to understand what kinds of mental pressures you're under. What is it like to be in that environment where you end up signing something that you know not to be true and that is highly incriminating? What happens in a situation like that?

MH: You have no outlet, you have no assistance. And they deliberately play on these pressures. They use psychology you know for their strength -- it's purely to stress you. They will undertake these tactics as you would see from TV and everything else like good cop-bad cop -- they may come in and be nice to you one day but then the next day they may increase threats -- they may give you as they did with me 15 hour interrogations by myself, 12 hour interrogations, and they may say actually would you like a cup of tea? They'll play on those pressures and how you react. But because you're in solitary confinement, because you're in isolation, because you have no other persons to engage with to seek to get help to get the strength, you're in your own head and it's your own thoughts are what play against you -- and that ultimately is what often leads people to sign these confession statements.

CO: They know what they're doing, don't they?

MH: Oh that's their job -- it's not my job. I'm an academic. You know I'm a victim of that situation as well as many many many other people and I'm a lucky one because I was given a presidential pardon. But to the many people that are in prison in the UAE and in the wider region, we don't know what's happening to them and there's no way to know what's happening to them.

CO: This is more than six months that this went on -- in solitary confinement, interrogations, what was your darkest moment?

MH: The worst time period was August and September. So I was apprehended in May. It was a few months later and this is when the suicidal thoughts increased and I started vomiting, like self-induced vomiting three times a day. And that happened for about three months and it got to the point where because they'd increase my medication to such an extent, and even the security and intelligence officials acknowledge that I was on too much medication, after they were the ones encouraging doctors to give me more medication so I had suicidal thoughts. I was taken to a hospital. I was chained to a bed. I was still vomiting every day. I didn't sleep for four days and that's when court started. That was easily my darkest period. That was the most isolated I felt.

CO: Matthew I'm so sorry.

MH: It's not your fault.

CO: Now did you know what was going on outside -- that there was this campaign to free you, not just from your wife Daniela who was so outspoken and articulate about demanding that you be released and demanding help, but that eventually your government got involved -- but your academic world was very very engaged in that -- people who knew you, people who didn't know you, were campaigning to have you released. Did you know anything of that nature was going on?

MH: So I had absolutely no clue whatsoever. I wasn't allowed any reading material. I wasn't allowed anything to distract myself because that's the way of increasing that psychological pressure. It was only when I was released on bail in October-November time when I came back and I saw the news -- and I didn't want to look at the news to be honest, I was in quite a delicate mental state. So I tried not seeing that news. And even now I'm still not able to process how much support I've received you know from the wider academic community and from the wider public in general.

CO: You were sentenced to life in prison after about a five minute court hearing. And as you say eventually you were released as the United Arab Emirates called it a gracious clemency they granted you. Do you think that any of this would have happened had it not been for that international campaign to have you released?

MH: No, and that's why now and for the rest of my life I owe my wife everything for taking that lead and for her being the face of that campaign. Obviously the foreign office did engage and did help with that towards the end of my detention. But it was that wider international and community support that created that pressure, that environment, to say this behaviour is not right. It's not correct. And you can't get away with this.

CO: What are you trying to accomplish by being public? You have done press conferences, you have done a number of interviews about this, what are you trying to do by telling people this story?

MH: As I said I've processed very slowly the support people had towards me in my case and this is as I said I'm lucky. There are many others, hundreds if not thousands, who go through worse situations that we don't know about and I feel a responsibility to help maintain that interest in the subject because I'm free now -- I'm still a falsely convicted spy, but I'm free. And I just want to say to other people and to other states, please don't let this type of behaviour continue. Don't let it be normalized.

CO: You know that in Canada standing up to these kinds of authoritarian regimes has meant all kinds of pushback and there are those who say that Canada has never been so isolated diplomatically in the world as it is now since it began to stand up to Saudi Arabia or to China. Can you see why countries, other states, are reluctant to stand up and say no this is wrong, you can't arbitrarily detain people, you can't falsely charge them, you can't do this to people -- can you see why they wouldn't do that?

MH: I'll flip it over and say you know it could be seen that Canada may be starting to isolate itself but isolate itself from who? From these regimes that act in that manner? From these personalities which don't have that sort of -- that right agenda, the right approach -- not only to politics but to human life? You know look what's happening you know in North America, what's happening across Europe, do you want to be associated with those types of persons? Or are you happy to be accepted by the general public -- which I think Canada is respected in the highest order of being a country that takes those values to heart? And it's something that no other country stands for in the same way and it is something you should take with pride and with a hell of lot of respect.

CO: Matthew I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

MH: No problem whatsoever. Thanks very much for taking time to speak to me.

CO: Bye bye.

MH: Bye bye.

KG: Matthew Hedges is a UK academic. He was in our studio in New York. You'll find more on Mr. Hedges and his detention in the United Arab Emirates on our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Hank Idsinga

KG: Today marks one year since Toronto Police arrested Bruce McArthur. Police believe he's a serial killer. He's been charged with eight counts of first degree murder in the deaths of eight men -- all with ties to Toronto's gay village. Their deaths shocked the city and the country. This morning on CBC's Metro Morning host Matt Galloway spoke with lead homicide detective Hank Idsinga about the case. Here is part of that conversation starting with what went through Detective Idsinga's mind when police first found the human remains.

SOUNDCLIP

HANK IDSINGA: A big dose of reality -- that's as to what we were dealing with -- what had been going on in the city.

MATT GALLOWAY: What do you mean a dose of reality?

HI: A dose of reality in that this whole scenario is real. This whole serial killer scenario is real -- that someone in this has actually had been active in this city for years leading up to that day. Like I've said it before it's really really gave us a kick when we discovered that.

MG: The criticism that officers weren't taking the missing persons case seriously was a very pointed and very direct criticism. How do you see that?

HI: I see that as if you look at the criticism that came up in -- especially in 2017, saying the police did nothing and then the warrants for (Project) Houston were unsealed in 2018 and a lot of those critics came back and said, wow we can't believe the amount of work that the police actually put into this. And if you still go onto the internet and Google these missing persons, the majority of Toronto newspapers were what we were releasing back in 2013 that we've got the three missing persons and we've plastered the community with posters about these three missing persons and it's on the front page of the news that we've got these three missing persons.

MG: And yet the chief was saying up until even December that there was no evidence of a serial killer. And I guess it's people trying to square those two realities. Was that a communications issue? I mean I don't want you to throw your chief under the bus, but do you think, broadly, do you think that the message perhaps that the community wanted to hear was different than the message that was being given?

HI: I think the community has to realize that we can't broadcast speculation. And what the chief said in December of 2017 was very accurate from our point of view in that we had no evidence that there was a serial killer. That changed dramatically a month later in January of 2018.

MG: What would you say to those -- and I know that you were outside of our studio having conversations after our conversation earlier this morning from people who have different perspectives on this, what would you say to those who feel as though there's still work to be done to stitch that relationship back together between police and the community?

HI: I don't disagree at all. I think there is a lot of work to be done and we've already changed several things in the way we do business and there's more changes to come.

KG: That was Toronto Detective Hank Idsinga speaking with Matt Galloway on CBC Toronto's Metro Morning. One year ago today, Bruce McArthur was arrested. His trial is scheduled for January 2020.

[Music]

Preview: Robin Robertson interview

KG: It's an elegiac poem -- the length of a book -- that chronicles the post-war journey of a traumatized soldier from Cape Breton losing himself in the big cities of America. And on Monday we'll have a feature length interview with author Robin Robertson about that book called "The Long Take." The Long Take was shortlisted for the 2018 Man Booker Prize, and Mr. Robertson will explain how he started on the journey of writing the epic poem which he dubs a 'noir narrative.' But today -- here's an excerpt of that interview.

SOUNDCLIP

ROBIN ROBERTSON: I simply wanted to write a longer piece of work, a narrative of some sort. I had absolutely no idea of what I was doing or how long it would take me or how long the final book would be. So it was as much a surprise to me as it was to my publishers.

CO: There are reviewers who have compared The Long Take to Homer to the Iliad -- not just because it's an epic poem, but because it's also about war and the effects of war more than about the violence of war -- but the effects of war on soldiers and the warriors who were part of it -- and that certainly is in Homer's work, in Iliad, The Odyssey, men coming home -- trying to find home again. What did you want your readers to understand about the effects of war?

RR: Well I want to first of all have a character who had a psychic wound. And my central character, Walker, who is a Nova Scotian ex-veteran with post-traumatic stress disorder has come back from the campaign -- to the ending the Second World War. And he has been broken by it and can't go home as you say -- he can't go back to the Maritimes. He is completely shattered and he wants to try and find some sense of community. And it does what many returning servicemen did, which was to go for the anonymity of the big city. So he starts in New York. And then Los Angeles. And then San Francisco. And then back to Los Angeles. And he's looking for some kind of peace, some kind of tranquility, some kind of camaraderie that was the only thing that was decent about the war.

CO: What is the America he is traveling in? Can you describe how you see that landscape?

RR: It's a place that had almost doubled its economy during the war years and was full of migrant workers -- all the cities were full of migrant workers. And all of the indigenous communities were being displaced. It was the beginning of a kind of civic turmoil that has continued to this day. And film noir is effectively the art form of this period from the mid-40s to the late 50s. It is timed very nicely with some of the best jazz I think that was ever made. This is that smoky after hours melancholy feel of the city at night.

KG: That was a taste of feature length interview with author Robin Robertson about his book The Long Take. You can hear that full interview on our show on Monday.

[Music]

Moose statue

Guest: Jennifer Scott

KG: If you live in Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan, or if you visited, then you know Mac the Moose. Mac is the tallest moose statue in North America. And until 2015, I would have said he was the tallest in the world. After all not a lot of tall moose statues. However three years ago Norway unveiled a shiny, crystal moose called, oddly, The Big Elk. And it has 30 centimetres on Mac. As you'd imagine residents in Moose Jaw are not content with being second best and now they're planning to get their title back. Fraser Tolmie me is the mayor of Moose Jaw. And for him this moose thing, it's personal. We reached him in Moose Jaw.

CO: Mayor Tolmie what is this about? Norway surpassing the height of your moose, how is that possible?

FRASER TOLMIE: You know it wasn't done on my watch, but now that I found out about it, we're going to address this situation -- very very disappointing news, very upsetting for our community.

CO: But it's deliberate, isn't it? I mean they have said in Oslo, Norway, when they showed off this moose they said it was done deliberately to beat out Mac the Moose in Moose Jaw, is that right?

FT: Yeah. And it's so unlike the Norwegians -- I mean they give out Nobel Peace Prizes and then they go and do something like this -- a blatant move to surpass the City of Moose Jaw with having the world's tallest moose.

CO: What are you going to do about it?

FT: Well I've said this, this is very personal for me. Les McKenzie was a former city councilor in the city of Moose Jaw. Mac the Moose is named after Les McKenzie. Les McKenzie -- very few people know this -- was my wife's great uncle through marriage so we're very closely related here. And so I'm taking it personal but we've gone out to the community and we're searching for some answers.

CO: And is this a way to I mean to make Mac the Moose larger -- is that possible?

FT: Well we're going to find a way to reclaim that crown. We have a GoFundMe page that's been started by Justin and Greg -- a couple of guys here in Saskatchewan that are passionate about the moose as well. And I think we can find some solutions. We've had lots of suggestions that have come forward -- suggestions like putting hockey skates on him, by putting a cowboy hat, or a Mountie hat, or a hockey helmet, or a football helmet on him. The most popular right now seems to be putting on a bigger rack.

CO: Because you only got to make up 30 centimetres, right? I mean I'm looking at the two pictures side by side. So if Mac even if his rack -- his antlers were even tilted more upward, you could beat that out, no problem.

FT: Absolutely. I think this is doable. And we've heard some rumblings that Norway will try and counter this, but this would become a new arms race so to speak between our two nations.

CO: And that would be very sad if Norway and Canada have to go back to rack-to-rack on something like this -- you just don't want to go there, do you?

FT: We don't. We don't. But again this was -- we were provoked, and again we have to stand up for Canada's national treasures. And you know I've been called to do that and I'm going to do that -- I'm going to stand up for Canada.

CO: But can I point out that the Oslo, Norway moose doesn't even really look like a moose -- it's so shiny.

FT: I think it is a beautiful hood ornament for a car.

CO: [Laughter] A very large ornament for a car. How big is your moose?

FT: Our most is actually 32 feet high and nine point eight metres high.

CO: And this other one is another 30 centimetres on that. So a majestic hood ornament that someone in Oslo, Norway could enjoy. But they've said -- now this is what they've actually put out -- 'Congratulations Canada on having the biggest moose in the world for 31 years. That's a great achievement. We're sorry to kick you out. Put you in second place but we are super thrilled.' What can you say back to them?

FT: Well you know when someone says that they've kicked you out and they're taking joy in that I mean that's very disappointing. There are things that you just don't do to Canadians. You don't say to a Canadian that Hockey Night in Canada is a chat show. You don't tell a Canadian that they can't pour maple syrup on their pancakes. You don't water down a Canadian's beer. And you don't mess with Mac the moose -- and someone's got to take a stand and that's what we're going to do here.

CO: So no more Mr. Nice Guy?

FT: Well it wasn't because I wanted to, it's because I have to and I'm willing to.

CO: Now is there nothing else you could do?. Maybe you have to just give over the title to Norway -- maybe you could say that you are warmer than Regina. I mean you are --you told me that you are slightly warmer than Regina in the winter. Isn't that enough? I mean is there nothing else you can sell Moose Jaw on?

FT: Look we have great things in our community. People know about our connection with Chicago. We're known as Little Chicago across the world because of Al Capone coming up here and hiding from the heat during prohibition days. But the way I see this moving forward -- I have concerns. I mean Canada used to have the tallest freestanding building in the world with the CN Tower, we no longer have that title and you can't put a rack on the CN tower you know. It's just got to stop and so it's going to stop here because you know what's next? The Vegreville egg? I mean that's the world's largest egg. What are we going to do about that? I mean we're going to deal with this head on.

CO: It's a slippery slope, isn't it?

FT: It is. It is. But I believe in the community of Moose Jaw. I believe in the Province of Saskatchewan. I believe in Canada. And we've even had people reach out from south of the border that are willing to support us in this challenge.

CO: Mayor Tolmie the world is watching.

FT: Thank you very much.

CO: Bye bye.

FT: Bye bye.

KG: Fraser Tolmie is the Mayor of Moose Jaw in Saskatchewan. The city plans to fight Oslo, Norway and regain the title of home of the tallest moose statue in the world. We reached Mayor Tolmie in Moose Jaw.

January 18, 2019 Episode Transcript

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