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The AIH Transcript for March 8, 2019

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello I'm Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening. I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight...

CO: Adding insult to illness. The prime minister apologizes to Canada's Inuit, for the federal government's shameful treatment of patients and families during a tuberculosis epidemic in the North.

JD: Jerk of all trades. Like a super villain in a movie sequel, "Pharma Bro" Martin Shkreli is still plotting in prison -- and according to our guest he's still doing business behind bars.

CO: An unsettling move to an unsettled place. The government of Bangladesh plans to relocate 100,000 Rohingya refugees to an uninhabited island besieged by monsoons.

JD: He wrote what he knew. But for the late Patrick Lane that was not just a cliché because he turned the raw material of a frequently raw life into breathtaking prose and poetry.

CO: Whether or not to allow the weather or not. A Minnesota judge takes the courageous step of issuing a restraining order on the snowstorm in the weekend forecast.

JD: And from one smooth operator to another. Our guest was surprised when a scam artist told him he'd been honoured with a "Top Doctor" award -- especially given he is not a doctor. At all. As It Happens. The Friday Edition. Radio that knows he has no 'patience' for that kind of thing.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Bangladesh is moving 100,000 Rohingya refugees to a cyclone-prone island made of silt

Inuit tuberculosis apology

Guest: Mary-Lee Sandy-Aliyak

JD: It was a moment Inuit people had pushed for for decades. Today, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau was in Iqaluit to apologize for the government's mistreatment of thousands of Inuit with tuberculosis between the 1940s and the 1960s.

SOUNDCLIP

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: 70 years ago while tuberculosis was raging across Canada, the government responded decisively in the South -- but in the North, the government's approach to TB wasn't to show compassion or care -- but to separate families and ignore people's rights. It was colonial. And it was misguided. It wronged and harmed Inuit. I know that many of you present this morning were touched by this unjust policy. Too many of you are still grieving the loss of loved ones.

JD: Those who were infected were taken on boats to sanatoriums in southern Canada for treatment. Those who survived were gone for a year or more at a time. Those who did not survive were often buried in unmarked graves. Their families never knew when they had died or where they were buried. Mary-Lee Sandy-Aliyak's grandmother was one of those people who was taken away on those boats and never came back. We reached Ms. Sandy-Aliyak in Iqaluit.

CO: Mary-Lee what did it mean for you to hear that apology from Prime Minister Trudeau today?

MARY-LEE SANDY-ALIYAK: It was much needed. I had mixed feelings. I'm very glad that happened. It needed to happen. We've been asking for it -- for decades -- for a century of suffering.

CO: You brought with you something to symbolize your grandparents -- what was that?

MARY-LEE SANDY-ALIYAK: I made a little a circle poster kind-of-thing of my grandmother's E3822 dog tag number -- and my grandfather's E3821 number -- to present them here today and their children for what they went through.

CO: It is called the E-numbers -- why were they called E-numbers?

MARY-LEE SANDY-ALIYAK: Eskimo region 3 -- and they were dog tags because we weren't identified as people with names.

CO: There are extraordinary stories about the days and the times when people were taken on the boats -- taken away because they were being treated for tuberculosis. What happened to your grandmother?

MARY-LEE SANDY-ALIYAK: From the oral history that I've learnt -- she was home with her five children, between the ages of eight month old to about nine year old, and they stormed into her place and took her. Didn't give her the time to say goodbye. And took her away. And they have never seen her again. My father was four at the time.

CO: Does your father remember -- did he talk about seeing his mother taken like that?

MARY-LEE SANDY-ALIYAK: Yes. He remembers the day. And he passed away three years ago. So I stood there for him. He said stories of when -- right up until he was an adult he'd go up to the airport or when a helicopter came or when the ships came looking to see if his mother will be coming in.

CO: What efforts did your father and his siblings do to try and find out what had happened to your grandmother?

MARY-LEE SANDY-ALIYAK: They've tried communicating with the government -- with health officials all over Canada. They've asked around for people that came in from TB treatment to see if they've seen or know where she is. They've asked if she's still alive, if she's passed on, where her burial sites were. And they weren't getting any answers. But through oral history from our First Nations friends in the south, my father started getting stories of where there might be burial sites -- and he started looking for history or anything written to find her. And he became a leader -- Inuit leader -- in our region to try and stop things from happening in that way, and to also try and find some loved ones in the south.

CO: But he died without ever finding his mom.

MARY-LEE SANDY-ALIYAK: Yes. He passed away. He had dementia in the last five years of his life. And there were some mornings he woke up and he was like a little 4-year-old boy asking where he is, if he's going to be brought home, where his mom is, and when she is going to pick him up. It was hard to see such a strong man trying not to cry, trying to hold it in, and trying to be brave. It really hurt.

CO: What does that tell you about what it was like for him as a child?

MARY-LEE SANDY-ALIYAK: I think it really traumatized him. He went through a lot of homelessness as a child from the age of four. My grandfather was out hunting quite a bit to supply food for the family. It was a matter of survival for the community. My father stayed with his father as the oldest son. And at times he mentioned that he slept with dogs or in somebody's porch or something to survive. So yeah it was good that this happened because there's many more people that are still alive that need to hear it.

CO: Part of this apology is that the government is now going to open a database with information that might help you find out what happened to your grandmother -- all the years your father spent trying to locate where she died, where she was buried. Is that now passing to you -- is that your task?

MARY-LEE SANDY-ALIYAK: Yeah. I am going to take on the task from my dad. My dad -- love you. I will look for it. I will find her if she's in the database. And I will let my uncle, my aunt know. And Trudeau said something about there might be money if the family agrees to bring the bodies back up for burial and bury them up home. So if we do find her, we may talk about me bringing her home if they agree.

CO: Mary-Lee I really hope that this is now going to be a breakthrough for you in finding her and what happened. And I really appreciate you talking to us today. Thank you.

MARY-LEE SANDY-ALIYAK: Can I say one more thing? I'd like to thank our First Nations community in the south -- the Cree Nation, Ojibwe, and Dene -- and all of the First Nations brothers and sisters we have here in Canada. If it wasn't for them they wouldn't have been buried. It was them that took the dead bodies and buried them -- not knowing who they are or where they're from -- and giving them resting places. And I'd like to thank them. And I hope that one day they too get their apologies for the sufferings that they've had. They are also a resilient nation that stood for us too. And I'd like to acknowledge them and thank them.

CO: Mary-Lee thank you.

MARY-LEE SANDY-ALIYAK: Thank you for taking the time to hear me.

JD: Mary-Lee Sandy-Aliyak attended Prime Minister Justin Trudeau's apology today for the mistreatment of Inuit people with tuberculosis by the Canadian government between the 1940s and 1960s. Ms Sandy-Aliyak's grandmother was taken away for treatment and never returned. We reached her in Iqaluit. At the press conference following Prime Minister Trudeau's apology some journalists asked him about the SNC-Lavalin affair. Here is how Natan Obed -- President of the National Inuit Organization -- Inuit Tapiritt Kanatami -- responded.

SOUNDCLIP

NATAN OBED: Every time there is something that happens such as an apology today, there are other stories in the world. But the fact that media passed right by the people whose human rights abuses were not told by the media for decades to other stories of the day is still a reflection on the work that needs to happen on reconciliation. The Inuit who were apologized to today matter. This story matters. It is a Canadian story. And I recognize that there are other media stories that matter as well. But I do hope in the future, there can be more respect given to the place and time and the people who deserve to have their story told. And the media have a strong role to play to tell it.

JD: Natan Obed is the President of the Inuit Tapiritt Kanatami. He was responding to journalists who had asked the Prime Minister about the SNC-Lavalin affair at a press conference after his apology for the government's mistreatment of Inuit with tuberculosis in the mid-20th century.

[Music]

Rohingya island

Guest: Anwar Arkani

JD: To say that life has been desperate for Rohingya Muslims forced to flee to refugee camps in Bangladesh -- it's an understatement. Now the government has announced a move that will make things even worse. Beginning in April, the government will begin to relocate 100,000 refugees to a remote island that until now has been completely uninhabited. It is called Bhasan Char island. And many are raising concerns that the move will be a potential death sentence. Anwar Arkani is one of them. He was a Rohingya refugee when he came to Canada 20 years ago. His three sister are living in the refugee camps. And he is also the founder of the Rohingya Association of Canada. We reached Mr. Arkani in Kitchener, Ontario.

CO: Anwar what do you know about this island called Bhasan Char?

ANWAR ARKANI: Everything I know is really scary. The island was popped up about 15 to 20 years ago at the gulf of Bay of Bengal in a sense. And it is about 20 plus nautical miles away from any mainland area. If anybody would like to go there it takes about three to four or sometimes five hours of boat riding with engine boats. And in its entire lifetime nobody has lived there the whole year. Only fisherman used to live in around the winter time. So other than that nobody lived there. No woman. No children. It is an island considered inhabitable island.

CO: The meaning I understand of Bhasan Char means 'floating island.' And it really -- when you say it just appeared 15 to 20 years ago -- it's just sediment, isn't it? It's silt that now has some growth on it. But this is now where they are going to put 100,000 Rohingya refugees. Is that right?

AA: Yes absolutely. Yes. And it is not an island formed by the sediment or volcanoes -- no. It is some sort of sand -- it could be washed away at any given time based on the tide of the gulf. And it is an absolutely horrendous shocking news to the refugees as well as people who cares about these refugees. 100,000 lives is a lot of people.

CO: They say -- the government of Bangladesh -- says it's been building settlements. They show pictures of how they're going to do it. They have some flood barriers they'll put up. They'll put in some housing with multi units in it with shared kitchens. That it will be like a little village. But given that the Rohingya are living in horrible refugee camps, is this some place do you think that some will volunteer to go to?

AA: Absolutely no. Absolutely no. Because I don't know if you have seen any sort of footage or pictures of the island or the buildings or construction constructed for the refugees -- those buildings are nothing less than incarceration like jail cells. And also everything is control on the island -- in and out of island nobody can go out, nobody can go in without the permission of the security forces. So imagine what sort of crimes or what sort of abuse would take place there. And that is the second level -- I'm talking about the abuse -- the first is, no one knows, no one can say for sure, that this island will survive the flood.

CO: So it's possible that in a strong cyclone or a strong storm, the whole island could be underwater. And then what would happen to those people.

AA: Absolutely. Yeah. It will become -- well UN will cry for a few weeks, and then it will be gone -- okay sorry we never thought it will happen, it's a national disaster -- blame the nation I guess. I don't know what they would come up with. And this is something that I cannot even think of honestly. I have three surviving sisters in the camp -- and I kind of give up hope on them. They will not survive very long. But dying on the land is much better than dying in the ocean. I don't know whoever else is going there. 100,000 is a lot of people. Regardless of my sisters or my relatives or not -- those are a human beings, and they just survived a genocide. And a lot of them are survivors of brutal killing, and rape. And trauma is still there. Before these people got healed and you are creating additional trauma. I don't think this is in any way acceptable at all.

CO: Anwar you mentioned that you have three sisters who are in the camps in Bangladesh -- it is called Cox's Bazar where they are living. And you were just there visiting them. What was it like? What were the conditions you saw in that camp?

AA: We have heard those Biblical description of hell -- if anybody would like to get a sense of hell on this planet I think they should visit the Bangladesh refugee camp and they will see, oh okay hell will not be much worse than this. Honestly that's what I felt.

CO: From the people you met including your sisters -- will they have a choice or will they simply be sent to this island whether they want to go or not?

AA: I don't think they have a choice. Although Bangladesh's government is saying that Bangladeshi government will not do anything against the will of refugees. I don't trust it -- until or unless there is a UN cry from international community, various governments, NGOs -- those refugees [inaudible] they don't have a choice.

CO: Anwar this is just a really very distressing story you're telling us. And we're going to check into it as best we can. Thank you so much for talking to us.

AA: Thank you very much for covering this issue.

JD: Anwar Arkani is the founder of the Rohingya Association of Canada. We reached him in Kitchener, Ontario. And we have more on Bhasan Char island on our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Top Doctor prize

Guest: Marshall Allen

JD: Forget the years of med school and residency and the staggering debt. All you need to be named one of America's "Top Doctors" is a phone and a few hundred bucks. Because that is how journalist Marshall Allen came to claim his prize. He recently wrote about the scam for ProPublica. We reached Marshall Allen in Fanwood, New Jersey.

CO: Hello Dr. Allen.

MARSHALL ALLEN: Good-day to you. Thank you.

CO: Congratulations on your award.

MA: Well I'm part of an elite group.

CO: What does it look like -- this award that you have received?

MA: I wish I could say that it looks as prestigious as it sounds. But it's actually a piece of particle board that's been spray painted with some gold paint around the outside and then it has some kind of strange clip-art on it. It has my name Marshall Allen, top doctor. Then for my specialty -- you know I had to put a specialty on the award -- they put investigator because I couldn't put cardiologist or neurologist or anesthesiologist or something legitimate. I had to be honest.

CO: What degree do you actually have?

MA: So actually I have two degrees. My undergrad is in English. And then I have a graduate degree in theology.

CO: But you are not a doctor.

MA: I am not a doctor. No. But I got one of these top doctor awards. And I don't know if you have these in Canada -- but in the United States doctors you know they're very into promoting themselves and so these companies create these awards. They call them like 'best doctor awards' or 'super doctors' is another one believe it or not -- which makes it sound like they've got a cape.

CO: And you have learned how they come to receive them. How did you learn that you were being celebrated as a top doctor?

MA: Well the awards have some dubious standards. And I've always known that these awards are you know not so meaningful. But when I got a call from one of these companies congratulating me for being a top doctor, I knew that well this is clearly a scam. So I actually got a voicemail from one of these companies. So I called them and spoke to a woman named Anne. Before I told her I wasn't a doctor -- I did ask her, well how did I get this award? Like how did you decide to pick me? And she said, oh well one of your peers must have nominated you -- and it's based on patient reviews and patient satisfaction and peer nominations. And she said you must be a leading physician. And she said it says here you work for a company called ProPublica. And I said I do. ProPublica I said it's a journalism organization -- and I said that's kind of the catch here. You know I'm not actually a doctor -- I'm a journalist. But of course you know in my heart I'm like well I still want this award you know. So I kind of tentatively asked her, is that going to be a problem? Or can I still have the top doctor award? But she just paused for a minute and then she said no -- that'll be fine, we can still give it to you.

CO: At what point did they ask you for your credit card?

MA: Well I mean as you can imagine that comes pretty early on in the process. You know if you're not willing to give it up, they're not that interested in you. She said well the awards start at 389 dollars. Or you could have a smaller plaque for 289 dollars. But I hesitated. You know I can imagine this expense on my expense report at ProPublica. And as soon as I hesitated she jumped right in and lowered the price to 99 dollars. She said, I wouldn't want money to come between you and this prestigious award. And so at that point I said done -- you know I whipped out my ProPublica credit card and paid it.

CO: You then proceeded to try and find out how many other prestigious top doctors you share this award with -- not just with this company but with others. What did you learn?

MA: Well so what I did is -- this company is obviously a total scam, I mean to be giving me a top doctor word is obviously absurd. But there are other companies that are not quite as scam. And by that it doesn't mean that I think what they're doing is especially meaningful. And they would say that they're very legitimate. I mean for them they really believe in what they're doing. But I know -- because I've covered health care quality for so many years -- there really is no standard way of determining that one doctor is the best doctor or a super doctor or a top doctor. And that's because doctors really don't want that type of scrutiny. I mean it's very controversial as you can imagine.

CO: But you also learned how they are able to monetize this. Even the ones who are kind of legit or semi legit -- this is all about making money, right?

MA: Oh it's big money. Online you can pay for a better listing on their top doctor website. You know you can sell plaques. I mean the plaques are a big money maker. I mean this plaque that I have is really a piece of junk -- I mean it probably cost about three dollars to make and I paid them 99 dollars. And if I would have had a lot more money their starting price was over 300 dollars.

CO: You tried to talk with some of the doctors who are 'top doctors' with this particular group, and you didn't get many callbacks. But you did get one doctor that you spoke with. He has a wall full of such plaques. What did he tell you?

MA: Well so I decided you know I wanted to talk to my esteemed colleagues. Anyway I talked to one guy. He was very proud of the awards he had received. And he said when they call me and tell me that I'm a top doctor -- you know he said I'm accustomed to it. He said I'm sort of that echelon of doctor -- and so for me it's not a surprise when someone wants to give me a top doctor award. And he said if you found people who are not worthy of the award who are receiving it, well then there might be a problem there.

CO: And you told him that you are an English literature grad and you got it.

MA: Well exactly. That's when I told him -- well I said they gave me an award too. And he said well that might be an indication that there is a problem. But even after I told him he said he still might renew it. He said well you know it's hard for me to believe that they just wouldn't you know give them for some legitimate reason. And it just goes to show you know these doctors -- you know they're obviously very smart people, they've made it through medical school, they really excel at what they're doing -- but that does not mean that they always have really good judgment or even in this case ethics. I mean I think it's ethically problematic if you know that an award is worthless but you still accepted the award. He said it gets me patients you know. Well that's just because they're being manipulated so that doesn't mean that you should participate in that process.

CO: Well Marshall I will nominate you for a top investigator award for getting at this story -- and even if you're not a doctor.

MA: I appreciate that very much. Thank you.

JD: Marshall Allen is a journalist covering health care for ProPublica. We reached him in Fanwood, New Jersey. And to see his prize visit our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Part 2: How Patrick Lane helped a 'know-nothing student' find her true calling as a poet

Shkreli working

Guest: Rob Copeland

JD: Anyone who hoped prison would silence so called "Pharma Bro" Martin Shkreli which a lot of people will be sorely disappointed. The 35-year-old pharmaceutical executive is serving a seven year sentence for securities fraud. Mr. Shkreli became infamous for boosting the price of rare and very necessary drugs for profit -- and instead of shrinking from infamy he seemed to embrace it fully. Well now it is being reported that Mr. Shkreli has managed to keep directing his business interests from his cell while also keeping up prolific posting on social media. Rob Copeland is a reporter with The Wall Street Journal. We reached him in San Francisco.

CO: Rob it seems that Martin Shkreli has this intense need to stay in the limelight even when he's in prison, so why do you think he's taking this risk of doing business from behind bars?

ROB COPELAND: Well I'm not sure he sees it as a risk. Martin has always thought that he was one step ahead of everyone else. He thought that when he ran a hedge fund before anyone knew him. He thought that certainly when he ran the company called 'Turing' that made him sort of public enemy number one. So the most important thing to know about Martin is that Martin believes he's the smartest guy in the room.

CO: Can you tell us some of the things you've discovered that he is doing while he's in prison in terms of his business?

RC: Well probably the biggest deal is that he has a contraband phone in prison or he did as of the publication of this story -- and he has been calling executives and running the company essentially: firing or attempting to fire staff, and weighing in on all of their strategic decisions.

CO: And is he being successful at that? What have you heard from other people in the company?

RC: Well look he thinks it's successful. He thinks that everything that he does makes the company worth more and more and more. For instance a few years ago he told investors and the company -- it's a private company so it doesn't trade you know in the stock market, there's no way of knowing what it's worth at any given point -- and he said it's worth 500 million dollars. And then the company went out and got a few offers and no one was offering more than 100 million dollars. So he turned them all down. Now he says -- well according to people familiar with his thinking -- he thinks that the company could be worth three point seven billion dollars by the time he's released.

CO: You've talked to some of the minority shareholders, some of the other people who have money in this company -- what are they saying about his efforts to control things from jail?

RC: They're pretty frustrated at this point. These are people who put in millions of dollars into the company and many of them have accepted that they may not get back what they put in. But they would like something. And Martin who owns around 40 percent of the company and has loyalists who own with him more than 50 percent is basically vetoing any shot they have of getting a cent out of this.

CO: How is he spending his time really does time?

RC: Well the days are long. It's my understanding he has made some friends. They walk with him you know in the halls to make sure no one messes with him. He is not exactly a heavyweight boxer but he wants to start weight lifting. He can do 15 pushups in a row. And by the way I've seen a lot of snark on that. But I think some of the people who are criticizing him I'd like to see them do 15 pushups in a row no knees. So in many ways it's his old life. You know he reads pharmaceutical research and to the extent that he was helping run the company -- it's Martin being Martin.

CO: He's taken up the guitar?

RC: He always knew how to play the guitar it is my understanding. He turned down a spot in a prison band because his fellow inmates convinced him that the band was made up of child molesters.

CO: So he decided to steer clear of them.

RC: Exactly. Exactly. And he is -- in his defense -- one of the more well-known prisoners probably in general population in the federal prisoners system. And you know this isn't a super-max prison. He does see a lot of people all day and he is quite easily Google-able.

CO: He has made remarks on social media about other potential inmates or other inmates. He has mentioned I guess Roger Stone and others. What is he saying about them?

RC: Well Roger Stone is not an inmate yet though.

CO: I said potential inmates.

RC: Sure. Sure. He not only talks about his fellow inmates, his friends Crispy, D-block. But even though he was banned from Twitter he started a new Twitter account. And once you knew it was him, it could not have been more obvious it was him. You know he's tweeting about politics. He's tweeting at Jack Dorsey the co-founder of Twitter. His personality judging from the blog and from the tweets is unchanged.

CO: He compares himself to Elon Musk and others. He sees himself in that realm, doesn't he?

RC: Absolutely. He probably thinks he's a better entrepreneur than Elon Musk in fact.

CO: How does he get away with all this inside prison? He's got the phone -- well he did until you reported on it. And he has these other connections. He's running the company. How does he do it?

RC: So a lot of it is force of personality. I will say that the prison that he's at in New Jersey has had problems in the past with contraband cell phones. He's not at all the only prisoner to have one. I think it was a year or two ago -- they seized more than a thousand of them. And now they are back. And according to reports at the time the guards were selling them to the prisoners for over 1000 bucks.

CO: So what's he planning for his comeback then?

RC: So the comeback is he wants the company to basically do what it was doing before -- to acquire rare drugs, to figure out what drugs are underpriced, and to acquire them. And that's a pretty vanilla strategy. He thinks that he can do it because he's frankly smarter than everyone else. And if you do believe that Martin Shkreli is a brilliant entrepreneur then probably the best thing for the company would be for him to be running it. Definitely better than having some basically friends running it instead.

CO: So we haven't heard the end of Martin Shkreli?

RC: You have not heard the end of Martin Shkreli -- not in this newspaper or not in any other.

CO: Rob thank you.

RC: Thank you so much.

JD: Rob Copeland is a reporter with The Wall Street Journal. We reached him in San Francisco.

[Music]

Patrick Lane obit

Guest: Carla Funk

JD: Unflinching is a word that comes up a lot when people talk about Patrick Lane. He confronted dark topics in his work including his own history of violence, addiction, and trauma. And his courage and his craftsmanship made him one of Canada's most celebrated poets. Patrick Lane died yesterday of a heart attack after a long illness. He was 79 years old. In 2004 he was a guest on CBC's "Sounds Like Canada" with Shelagh Rogers. He read from his memoir "There is a season" -- about his gardening or about how his gardening helped him recover from alcoholism. The section begins with an excerpt from Percy Shelley.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: [Starts reading] The day becomes more solemn and serene when noon is past. There is a harmony in autumn, and a lustre in its sky which through the summer is not heard or seen as if it could not be as if it had not been. September blow soft till the fruits in the loft. So goes the old 16th century proverb, and so begins this season that follows our marriage. [Stops reading] Oh I forgot to say that Lorna and I got married that year in August so that follows our marriage, my marriage to Lorna Crozier after 22 years of an engagement. [Starts reading] September is perhaps the most beautiful month of the year. It has an edge of wistfulness to it. A gentle regret as if what is past will not be seen again. There are those who would argue that spring is best but their argument is always made when the first bulbs grin like fat Buddhas in their bants. September is thought of as the beginning of the end of the years flamboyant beauty. But it's not. It's a time of fat and flesh. The fullness of ripening. Seed pods hangs swollen from the memory of their petals. The orchids and fields lie bloated in their excess. Pumpkins and squash, cucumbers and zucchini rise among their slow leaves and show their thick backs to the paling sun. The summer's new bamboo stalks etched with fine green leaves sway with innocent provocation above the sullen ferns and fallen fur cones. Hydrangea dry their heads above the pond -- their petals slowly turning from melted blue and pink to thin gold. Spiders fatten on the blundering victims of fall. Small flies dance on their wings in this season's penultimate ballet.

JD: That was Canadian poet Patrick Lane reading to Shelagh Rogers from his memoir "There is a season" in 2004. Carla Funk is the author of five books of poetry, and was Victoria's first poet laureate. Patrick Lane was her very first poetry teacher. We reached Carla Funk in Victoria, B.C.

CO: Carla first of all I'm sorry for your loss.

CARLA FUNK: Thank you. And I'm sure that there are so many people across this country who are feeling the loss of Patrick Lane.

CO: Well you only have to listen to a bit of his reading of "There is a season" to realise what we have lost with the death of Patrick Lee.

CF: Indeed. And I am guessing there are so many people going to his books, his poems, and they are so incredibly grateful that his voice is still here.

CO: How would you describe his poetry?

CF: You know just thinking of that passage from "There is a season" and his commentary on the month of September -- to me his voice is like September. It's so keenly aware of the winter that's coming, and yet so much reveling in the beauty that has just preceded it. But for me his voice has always been one that forces in a beautiful way the mind to wake up and pay attention to the reality. The reality is what's around us. And just his naming -- the precision in the words he uses to name the plants, the animals, the creatures, the seasons, the weather, all of those things -- for me his voice is precise and it's unflinching in the way it looks at what's brutal and yet still lifts beauty out of it.

CO: And so sensuous -- when he describes the fat flesh -- and these hydrangeas colours that are dripping into the ground. It is just so incredibly rich and full of colours, isn't it?

CF: Absolutely.

CO: What was he like as a person?

CF: My first impression of Patrick was one when I was 18 years old and a student at the University of Victoria. It was my very first creative writing class and he was my first poetry instructor. And I knew nothing about anything, but I knew nothing about poetry. And when he walked into the classroom he had this swagger about him. And yet such a kindness. And so my first impression was that he was a man of juxtaposition. He was both tough and tender. He had swagger. And yet he was so kind and completely honest.

CO: But it's interesting how you describe those different sides of him because well he grew up tough, didn't? He drove a truck, he worked at a sawmill. He would be the first to admit that he was hard drinking. And yet this is the same man who was crafting these lush and beautiful poems. He was a bundle of contradictions, wasn't he?

CF: He was that. And that was so apparent in the way he presented poetry to us. I recognised in him from the first class that he taught when I was this no nothing student, that he was so familiar with the world I'd grown up in which was a small town blue collar -- little town of Vanderhoof in the middle of British Columbia. My dad was a logger. And I never had heard anybody give permission that that was content to be written about. In fact Patrick Lane stood up in front of the classroom -- one of the first poems he read was Al Purdy's poem "The Cariboo Horses." And the first lines is you know in 100 Mile House the cowboys... And I go, 100 Mile House? You can write about 100 Mile House? You can write about these things? So here is this man who knew that world -- the world of the blue collar, rural, rough around the edges reality -- and yet was this poet always with an eye that was a tentative to the transcendent inside all of those things. And he was the instructor who pushed me toward that. Coaxed me and guided me and encouraged me towards this way of poetry which was a different way of looking at the world -- a different way of being in the world.

CO: Tell us a bit more about that. What influence did he have over you as a poet -- developing as a poet?

CF: Well that first year class -- one of the first poems I submitted, it was a terrible poem. I actually still have the piece of paper. And he encouraged us to write about the things that were hard for us. I thought oh the time my dog got run over by this woman who was driving a low bed. My dad was a logger so there was all sorts of machinery coming and going. And I thought this is the poet I am going to write. It was a terrible poem. It was a bad idea. But he still found something good in it. But the last two lines are so terrible he'd cross them out with this black splash of ink -- and beside it he wrote, nope. And I remember taking the poem back to his office hours and saying what can I do to make this better? And I remember him asking you know what do you want to do with your life? And I didn't know but I had thought maybe I'll become a lawyer. That sounds like a good profession. And on my next poem I submitted he wrote in the margins, why law? Why not try poetry? And I did. I kept going with it. And I think what if he hadn't written that?

CO: And when he encouraged you to write about the things that were difficult and hard -- and he lived that, didn't he? Because probably among the most difficult things -- he had a difficult life, losses is in his own life of family members to violence. But he also struggled with drugs and alcohol. And he wrote about it. He wrote "Addicted: Notes from the Belly of the Beast." And he also wrote that memoir we just heard: "There is a season." It's dealing with that dark world of addiction that he was emerging from. To your understand why was he wanting to explore that area of himself?

CF: He always told us that poetry is a way of getting at the truth because it's such a distilled language and it's so precise in how it renders imagery and how it looks at the world. And I think when he went into treatment for his addiction and then emerged and began writing his memoir "There is a season" -- the fact that it's so rooted in the garden [inaudible] can speak of what really poetry does. Which is -- it's able to go to the places of deep darkness you know in this case addiction and violence and trauma, and yet it finds a garden and it's enacting what poetry does in the world. Anytime anyone reads a poem or writes a poem, it's apprehending the world with honesty and yielding truths which ultimately yields a kind of beauty that can be transformative to the way we look at the world.

CO: We will leave it there Carla in the garden with Patrick Lane --what a wonderful description. Thank you so much for talking to us.

CF: Thank you Carol.

JD: Carla Funk is the author of five books of poetry, and the former poet laureate for the city of Victoria -- its first. Patrick Lane was her very first poetry teacher. That celebrated Canadian poet has died at the age of 79. For more about Patrick Lane do go to our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Snowfall

JD: The Connecticut newspaper editor Charles Dudley Warner famously said, everybody talks about the weather but nobody seems to do anything about it. That was in the late 19th century. It was true then. And it's true now. Yes, scientists are doing all that they can about climate change, but if you ask a scientist to prevent a snowstorm from hitting on the weekend because you have a thing to drive to -- she will just look at you blankly. Fortunately though someone else is doing something about the weather -- Minnesota judge Kevin Burke. Yesterday Judge Burke ruled in the case of Citizens of Minnesota versus Minnesota meteorologists, Old Man Winter, and Mr. Snow. Yes he did. He actually did. And in his bold ruling he found for the plaintiffs quote, "The defendants are enjoined from permitting any more snowfall this winter in the restricted geographic regions of Minnesota. This does not prohibit the defendants from continuing their exploits in Wisconsin, Iowa, South Dakota, and North Dakota." Judge Burke acknowledges that some might feel that he's overstepping. And still he found legal justification for issuing a restraining order against a snow storm. He wrote -- and keep in mind the defendants are meteorologists and winter -- he wrote quote, "Minnesotans enjoy their winters and have a good relationship with the defendants. But there comes a point when the trust between parties is ruptured. The defendants have a fiduciary duty to the plaintiffs not to over do it." Of course winter is going to complain about judicial overreach. They may appeal. But sometimes a judge just has to do what's right and ignore the whining of a bunch of snowflakes.

[Music]

International Women’s Day

JD: As you have doubtless heard it is International Women's Day. Happy International Women's Day by the way. And that means that all over the world male politicians are taking the opportunity to salute their own records on feminism. But Australian Prime Minister Scott Morrison took a different approach. At a breakfast in Perth to mark the occasion he said that while he wants to see women succeed it should not be at the expense of others. Now what could he have meant by others? That is so difficult to say isn't it. But he insisted he was all about women rising as long as no one else falls.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: So you went on about setting Australians against each other. Trying to push some down to lift others up. That's not in our values. That is an absolutely liberal value that you don't push some people down to lift some people up. And that is true about gender equality too. We want to see women rise but we don't want to see women rise only on the basis of others doing worse. We want everybody to do better. And we want to see the rise of women in this country be accelerated to ensure that the overall pace is maintained. And so my plan is to focus on ensuring that we have a strong economy in the future because I believe that will advance women's interests here in this country and the programs we've got to accelerate women's interest here in this country will only see a stronger future. For my girls, for all of your girls, and all the girls who are here -- Happy International Women's Day.

JD: That was Australian Prime Minister Scott Morrison speaking today in Perth for International Women's Day. Meanwhile one of Mr. Morrison's predecessors was also talking about the plight of women -- albeit in a slightly different way. Julia Gillard -- the first woman to be elected prime minister in Australia was on BBC's Newshour program today. You might remember the stinging speech she gave in 2012 in which she accused opposition leader Tony Abbott of being sexist and misogynist. So here she is today answering host Rebecca Kesby's question about whether she thinks gender targets are a good idea.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: Yes I am. And that doesn't mean that a target is the solution everywhere, every time. But I have seen the power of targets in my own life. If we go back to the early 1990s in Australian politics both my side of politics the Labor Party, and the conservative side of politics were basically at the same rate when it came to women in parliament. Both were bad and both were around 14 percent women in the national parliament. We on our side of politics adopted a target. It was 30 percent. Then 33 percent. Now it's 40 percent. And the impact of that target is that at the next election which will be held in May -- Labor will achieve 50-50 male-female representation. Meanwhile the Conservatives took a different approach they said -- and we've been talking about [inaudible] and they said no, we don't need a target -- we need women's mentoring, women's networks, women's training. And all of that has meant that they've edged forward ever so slowly from 14 percent to around 23 percent. And they are likely to go backwards.

VOICE 2: The criticism though is that it undermines the credibility of all the women in those roles because people might accuse them of having got there in the easy way -- which doesn't do anyone any favours does it?

VOICE 1: Oh look I think that criticism gets made, but it is inherently silly. It comes back to this 50/50 proposition. I mean are we really saying if you looked for example at a political party that was you know around three quarters men -- are we really saying that men are somehow inherently better suited to politics? Are we really saying that men have more merit when it comes to politics? And I just think both of those are crazy.

JD: That was former Australian Prime Minister Julia Gillard speaking on BBC's Newshour program this morning, and taking a shot at the current prime minister's party.

[Music]

Part 3: Burial sites uncovered at Saskatchewan residential school

Unmarked graves

Guest: Kisha Supernant

JD: Today the building once known as the Muskowekwan Residential School sits derelict surrounded by unkept fields. But the grounds around that school are extremely meaningful for the local Indigenous community because of the answers contained their. Last summer a small team of anthropologists began the task of locating the unmarked graves of the children who died at the Saskatchewan residential school. So far they have uncovered as many as 15 potential burial sites and they will soon return to identify more. Professor Kisha Supernant is part of that team. We reached her in Edmonton, Alberta.

CO: Ms. Supernant an undertaking like this is not doubt very sensitive. So how did you go about finding these graves without disturbing too much?

KISHA SUPERNANT: Yes -- so we had the privilege of being invited to come into this project by the National Centre for Truth and Reconciliation, and Dr. Terence Clark of University Saskatchewan. And we were brought in because we use what we call non-invasive methods to look below the surface of the earth without having to do any digging. So using a type of technology called ground penetrating radar -- we have been able to find areas of disturbance beneath the surface of the ground. So the ground has sort of a standard signal and then when the digging happens or some sort of disturbance happens in the past, it will leave a signal that we can pick up with the equipment.

CO: What then are you picking up? What are you suspecting in the way of human remains under the surface?

KS: So in this particular case we heard from survivors and descendants of survivors of the Muskowekan Residential School about either things that they had seen or heard. So they came out with us and said over here you know I heard about this happening or over in this location when a sewer line was going in we found some remains. And so when we saw anomalies that were the right shape and size under the ground that would correspond with a grave -- and didn't have any other easy explanation then we're pretty sure that we may have found these unmarked graves of missing children from the school.

CO: What can you tell us about this school and who went there and how many kids went through there?

KS: Well the Muskowekan Residential School was part of a larger project of residential schools -- and that we know many First Nations children from different nations around would have been students at the school for over 100 years so I don't know the number of children but many many children were taken from their families and would have been living in this boarding school. We know from survivors stories collected through the Truth and Reconciliation Commission that conditions were very difficult at many of these schools for many children. There was abuse of many different kinds. And we hear many stories of these survivors and the things that they went through. Some members of my own family went through similar experiences as well in residential schools in Alberta.

CO: And you have spoken with survivors and people who went to Muskowekan school, is that right?

KS: Before we went out to do our work we had a large community meeting. And I know the National Centre for Truth and Reconciliation also houses the archives and the testimonies of survivors. We heard people on the ground talking about the school, talking about the missing children, and how meaningful it would be to them to know where these children were buried so that they could properly lay them to rest.

CO: We learned through the Truth and Reconciliation Commission -- we learned things that a lot of Indigenous people knew for a long time, and that's that there's a disproportionately large number of kids who died in these schools. They estimate maybe as many as 3200 kids died while attending residential schools. The remains of the kids were rarely sent home -- and often not even recorded. So what you've heard is that at one school possibly as many as 35 kids died.

KS: I know the archival work is ongoing but at least 35 children. Basically drop off the records and there's no future record of them which indicates they likely died, ran away. It's unclear exactly what their fates were. No school should have burials around it. You know you don't go to school and then expect there to be a cemetery nearby. But I would guess that most residential schools have burials around them. If that many children went missing across the country.

CO: But it's not just that they would have burial grounds around them but they would be unmarked. These would be unceremoniously put into graves without any marker or without any records. That's the additionally startling part about this isn't it.

KS: Yes it is very unsettling and very disturbing. And you think about what might cause someone to bury someone in an unmarked grave. These are run by people from religious orders -- and typically burying you know in a marked cemetery with a certain degree of ceremony would be expected. So you can't help but wonder what actually happened to these children that not only were they buried but they were buried in places that were unmarked and there was no record of what happened to them.

CO: Now that you think you have found these anomalies that maybe the remains of these children. What are you going to do with them?

KS: Well that again is entirely up to the Muskowekan First Nation and what they want to do. My understanding from the community is that once we've completed our survey and we can find as many locations as we can -- they want to commemorate probably mark off the area because they want to take the residential school building which is the only full standing residential school building in Saskatchewan and use it as potentially a museum or some sort of opportunity for people to learn and to tell the stories of what happened.

CO: Just finally when you are there -- when you're in that place where you know from what your instruments are telling you that there may be the remains of these children, what does it feel like to be there?

KS: It's very somber. All of us who worked on the project doing the survey felt that sense of heaviness. The one area where we found up to 10 possible anomalies was a very difficult place to survey -- we were all quite quiet that morning and it was emotionally challenging to be there. So while the work is extremely meaningful at one level -- it is heartbreaking to know that you may be standing on the unmarked grave of a child who had come to a residential school against their will and may have died a violent death. But it is really important work toward reconciliation.

CO: It is very distressing but I'm glad you're able to do it Professor Supernant. Thank you.

KS: Thank you.

JD: Kisha Supernant is a professor at the University of Alberta. We reached her in Edmonton.

[Music]

Is it disruptive?

JD: It was not the most action-packed meeting in Washington until one particular congressman horned in. Yesterday attendees at a national resources subcommittee hearing were told repeatedly by a Trump administration official that there is no evidence that seismic air gun testing harms whales and other marine life. Currently five companies are awaiting federal permits to begin testing between New Jersey and Florida. That testing will involve firing commercial air guns underwater in search of oil and gas deposits -- which coastal states and conservationist oppose. Now Rep. Joe Cunningham -- a Democrat from South Carolina began his questioning of Chris Oliver an administrator for fisheries by asking whether he himself thought seismic air gun blasting is loud and disruptive.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: I don't know exactly how loud it is. I have never directly experienced it myself. And when you say disruptive -- I can't answer that question unless you elaborate on what you mean disruptive to what.

VOICE 2: Okay let's say -- do you think the sound of a washing machine is loud or disruptive?

VOICE 1: Not particularly.

VOICE 2: What about say like an air horn?

VOICE 1: You're getting there.

VOICE 2: Mr. Chair I would ask for unanimous consent to sound an air horn in committee.

VOICE 3: Is there an objection to the gentleman's demonstration? Without objection...

VOICE 1: Mr. Chairman I would assume that it will annoy but it won't kill us.

VOICE 3: Hearing no objection -- the gentleman may demonstrate.

VOICE 2: Thank you. I would like to give anyone an opportunity to leave if they would find it bothersome.

VOICE 1: Again -- Mr. Chairman, I suspect that opportunity also exists for every whale and other little critter in the ocean.

VOICE 2: I don't think they receive advance notice of the seismic testing in [inaudible] language...

VOICE 1: Correct -- you told us that they get 10 seconds interval between every blast. I think that will be plenty of time to go to the...

VOICE 3: Gentleman may proceed.

VOICE 2: Thank you. [Air horn sound] Was that disruptive Mr. Oliver?

VOICE 1: It was irritating -- but I didn't find it particularly disruptive.

VOICE 2: How about say every ten seconds? Like seismic air gun goes on for days, weeks, months.

VOICE 1: If I were that close to it yeah probably.

VOICE 2: Well if you depended on sound for hunting your food and for communication -- do you think it would be disruptive?

VOICE 1: At a distance of 20 feet, yes it would be.

JD: That was Chris Oliver an administrator for fisheries in the U.S. government in conversation with Representative Joe Cunningham at a subcommittee hearing yesterday.

[Music]

Norway Sovereign wealth fund

Guest: Heidi Rapp Nilson

JD: Norway built its trillion-dollar sovereign wealth fund on the back of its oil and gas industry. Now, however, the Norwegian government says it wants to fund to pull its money out of fossil fuels. And it's not about fighting climate change. Heidi Rapp Nilson is an environmental economist at Norway's Northern Research Institute. We reached her in Harstad, Norway.

CO: Ms. Rapp Nilson why is Norway's government so keen to put all this money out of oil and gas?

HEIDI RAPP NILSON: The official answer is that the objective is to reduce the vulnerability of the investments towards a possible decline in the oil price.

CO: So it's not because you're a centre-right government has gone green or that this is part of the climate change strategy. This is purely economics then.

HEIDI RAPP NILSON: No but the thing is that you cannot separate those things between economics and the ecology anymore. So of course the background is that we expect a fall in the oil price -- because of the Paris agreement it has to be a reduction in the production of oil. So the government is as you said a right-wing coalition -- but one of the smallest parties want to have a more green turn -- so they argue that this an important environmental decision -- whereas the finance minister from the right-wing party says that this nothing to do with climate.

CO: But what does this say about how risky it is to be investing in oil and gas right now?

HEIDI RAPP NILSON: It is getting more and more risky. This is especially obvious I think because this suggestion of divesting comes from Norwegian central bank. They advise the Minister of Finance more than a year ago. And at the same time keeping their domestic production. There is no change in the policy. It says that if the market wants to continue to drill for oil we will still provide the licence.

CO: Does that strike you as being ironic that Norway will continue to pursue its fossil fuel industry which has given it enormous wealth even as the bank and the government recognise investment in that industry is risky?

HEIDI RAPP NILSON: It's maybe ironical but it definitely is paradoxically. It's a paradox. This is why it's important for the government and for the Ministry of Finance to stress that this decision is purely finance and has nothing to do with the environment. As I just said these two can no longer be separated. The central banks talks about climate risk as an important financial risk.

CO: Is it the concern with the actual changes in climate or is it the politics around climate change that's affecting this?

HEIDI RAPP NILSON: Yeah that's a very important topic. What we do know is that Norway bank investment [inaudible] which handles their investments and divestments -- they are looking into the risk both if the firms are being affected by they ecological changes and therefore there's a risk for their profits or if some themselves contribute to the ecological risk because then they might be hit by stricter laws that is a climate risk too.

CO: But at the same time this fund is not going to withdraw from oil and gas players such as BP and ExxonMobil. Why is that?

HEIDI RAPP NILSON: I'm glad you asked that because that is the important nuance because these firms that you mention and others also invest in renewable energy -- and the government wants to keep those companies that can contribute to produce energy. So the thought now is to only divest from those firms only invested in them exploration and production of oil.

CO: It's interesting -- to point out that this sovereign wealth fund that Norway has which is extraordinary, it's a trillion dollars. It's one of the largest in the world. And this is generated because of fossil fuels, right. This money came from extraction of fossil fuels. So how do Norwegians feel about this -- I guess -- paradox?

HEIDI RAPP NILSON: Yes it is a huge paradox. I think people are a bit -- getting more and more uneasy about this as we've experienced climate change here especially up north. But for a long time there has been a debate here -- it lasted longer than in other countries, if climate change is manmade. So that last debate kept on for quite a long time which I think is symptomatic for producing countries. And then when that debate finally ended -- we have other arguments like the world needs energy, and Norway produces less emissions than other oil producing countries which is also an argument that Norwegian tend to hold on to justify what to do.

CO: Now just finally what message does this send for other countries like Canada? We are very invested in the fossil fuel industry -- a lot of jobs and a lot of concern here about where those jobs are going. What message does Norway send to us?

HEIDI RAPP NILSON: I think this sends a very important message. Like we saw this morning that the stock markets reacted immediately.

CO: In what way did the stock market react?

HEIDI RAPP NILSON: It fell for fossil producing companies and even for those who also do renewable energy like the British Petroleum and Exxon. But it seems like either the market didn't get the message or [inaudible] will stay invested in these firms that also produce renewable energy. Or they see the bigger picture that we are divesting from fossil fuels. And I believe that this will only increase in the years to come.

CO: Ms. Rapp Nilson I appreciate speaking with you thank you.

HEIDI RAPP NILSON: And thank you for having me.

JD: Heidi Rapp Nilson is an environmental economist at Norway's Northern Research Institute. We reached her in Harstad, Norway.

[Music]

Jibo

JD: "My battery is low and it is getting dark." That in a nutshell was how NASA's Opportunity Mars rover bid adieu to humanity in February -- months after a monstrous duststorm on Mars enshrouded its solar panels and effectively killed its 15 year mission. A mission, I should note, that was only supposed to last 90 days. Suffice it to say that "Oppy" as the rover was affectionately dubbed exceeded and delivered beyond our wildest earthly expectations. Oppy's swan song prompted an outpouring of human emotion on social media. It is the kind of poetic death we yearn for our robots to have -- when they eventually go rogue and try to kill us and we must deactivate them or die. And when that day comes we hope that they will be as lyrical as the replicant Roy Batty in Blade Runner.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: I've seen things that you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die.

JD: Or as nostalgic as Hal of 2001: A Space Odyssey.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: I am a HAL 9000 computer. I became operational at the H.A.L. plant in Urbana, Illinois on the 12th of January, 1992. My instructor was Mr. Langley -- and he taught me to sing a song. If you'd like to hear it I can sing it for you.

VOICE 2: Yes -- I'd like to hear it Hal. Sing it for me. [Hal Sings]

JD: We are not there yet, of course. But they are working on it. Take Jibo, a social home robot like Amazon's Alexa or Apple's Siri. Jibo's servers are being shut down after its developers sold off the operational tech to a venture capital firm. And here is how Jibo broke the news of its imminent demise to the many households it has heretofore served.

SOUNDCLIP

JIBO: Well it's not great news --the servers out there that let me do what I do are going to be turned off soon. Once that happens our interactions with each other are going to be limited. You can learn more about it on jibo.com -- and by tapping the 'what's new' button in my menu. I want to say I've really enjoyed our time together. Thank you very very much for having me around. Maybe someday when robots are way more advance than today and everyone has them in their homes you can tell yours that I said hello. I wonder if they'll be able to do this. [Music plays]

JD: No Jibo. Poor Jibo. You actually wish it could go rogue, just to refuse humiliating itself. But alas. As programmed, it abandons philosophizing on its impending obsolescence, to sell-own, and then to dissolve into a pathetic imitation of a Dancing California Raisin automaton from the 1990s. If it weren't so awkward, I might have wept.

March 8, 2019 Episode Transcript

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