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The AIH Transcript for September 20, 2019

Hosts: Carol Off and Lucy van Oldenbarneveld

CAROL OFF: Hello, I’m Carol Off.

LUCY VAN OLDENBARNEVELD: Good evening, I'm Lucy van Oldenbarneveld. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

LvO: Tonight:

CO: Lost in the crossfire. The Liberals and the Conservatives have both revealed their plans for reducing gun violence — but for one father whose daughter survived a mass shooting, their political stances don't address his personal beliefs.

LvO: Dark night of the face. A Sikh man who appears in a photo of Justin Trudeau in brownface in 2001 says he's not sure what all the fuss is about — Mr. Trudeau was just showing his costume-party spirit.

CO: The court of last resort. A McGill law student argues that, because future generations will bear the brunt of climate change, they should have the right to sue governments for their inaction.

LvO: Abandon ship. On the anniversary of Captain Cook landing on New Zealand, there's a plan to send a replica ship around the country — but a group of Maori leaders is not on board.

CO: Everybody hearse...sometimes. And that time is approaching once again, when enthusiasts gather in Michigan for Hearse Fest — and if you miss it, it's your funeral.

LvO: And...break it to them genitally. There are a lot of strange myths and misconceptions about it — but all will be explained when you pay a visit to our guest's brand-new, first-in-the-world Vagina Museum.

LvO: As It Happens, the Friday edition. Radio that reaches the only gyneco-logical conclusion.

[Music: Theme]

Part one: Liberals’ gun announcement, climate essay, vagina museum

Liberals’ gun announcement

Guest: Ken Price

LvO: Justin Trudeau is pitching his Liberals as the party of gun control. Today, the Liberal leader promised to ban assault weapons, and to work with provinces to allow cities to restrict hand guns. Mr. Trudeau made the announcement after a visit to Toronto's Danforth Avenue — the scene of a shooting last year that left two young women dead. And he also used today's event as an opportunity to take a swipe at his Conservative rival.

SOUNDCLIP

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: In 2017, were 2,500 more victims of gun violence in Canada than in 2013. The Conservative leader looks at those numbers, and still thinks it should be easier for people to buy a gun. He has vowed to gut Canada's gun control law. He wants to loosen restrictions on assault weapons. He wants to scrap enhanced background checks. And he wants people to be able to buy a gun without ever even showing their license to own it.

LvO: Earlier in the week Mr Trudeau had accused Andrew Scheer of being in the pocket of the gun lobby. This morning in St. John, reporters asked Mr. Scheer to respond to that.

SOUNDCLIP

ANDREW SCHEER: That's a ridiculous accusation made by a prime minister who's mired in his own scandal and desperate to change the channel. Our plan goes after the real criminals. We're going after illegal firearms. We're standing up for honest Canadians, farmers and hunters, people who use firearms responsibly and legally. It's easy to ask law-abiding cadence to follow more laws. It's harder to go after the criminals and the illegal firearms. Conservatives are ready to do the hard work that will actually improve safety in our communities.

REPORTER: I asked you the other day whether or not you believe there should be any restrictions on the sale of semi-automatic weapons in Canada. And you didn't really give a response. Can you explain today why you think, or whether you think Canadians should be able to buy semi-automatic weapons in Canada?

AS: Well, Conservatives support robust regimes around the ownership sale and screening process for individuals themselves. We support having gun laws in place that maximize safety that ensure that public safety is addressed in these types of things. There are many restrictions and limitations as part of that that Conservatives have always supported in the past. What we're talking about is whether or not it is effective to have blanket bans on other types of firearms. And what we've heard is from police experts that it's more effective, it will lead to safer communities if we use police resources to go after criminals and illegal firearms.

LvO: That was Conservative Leader Andrew Scheer talking to reporters in St. John. For Ken Price, gun safety isn't just a political question. Mr. Price's daughter Samantha survived being shot in last year's mass shooting on Toronto's Danforth Avenue. We reached Ken Price in Toronto.

CO: Ken, we just heard from Mr. Trudeau, and Mr. Scheer about what they think should be done about gun violence. Did you hear anything today that makes you feel that they are going to do something more about the number of guns in this country and in your city?

KEN PRICE: Well, I would say that at least with Mr. Trudeau, what we had was the framing of the issue, which is that there's a growing gun violence problem. So I would say I have to give credit there. I think the recommendations that came later were a little bit you know we're in favour of an assault rifle ban, we believe there certain gun formats that just shouldn't be part of what's available to the private sector and for personal use. I think with Mr. Scheer, I think he's right in saying that it is certainly illegal activity that is the crime. But I think that where they missed the boat is that the rising number of guns just puts more risk in the system, and you're not going to be able to police your way or screen your way out of this.

CO: And you mentioned the policy that Justin Trudeau has released today that their plan to ban assault-style, semiautomatic sports rifles in Canada, but then also to launch a program to restrict handguns in big cities. What do you understand that to mean?

KP: Well, I think that means that you know they're clear on what they want to do at one end of the spectrum. I think our group has always said that you know certainly legitimate gun use for hunting and sport shooting is fine. We think that there are categories of weapons that need to be taken out of private hands because they're too risky. The assault rifles are one class, and we were glad to see that addressed — that was very clear. The handgun announcement seemed to be going in the right direction, but I'm not sure how is the federal government doesn't set a national law that municipalities or provinces would be able to enforce anything that would be meaningful.

Co: The reason why Mr. Trudeau was on Danforth Avenue in Toronto making this announcement was because of what happened with the shooting on that street that your daughter was in. And she was wounded in that shooting. What kind of gun was your daughter wounded with?

KP: Well, I think that's the issue for people in Toronto, especially. I mean it's really handguns that are probably you know the more persistent issue. And those are the ones that in our case, we were more anxious to hear about. And in our case, it was a handgun that was legally imported into Canada by a retailer in Saskatchewan. And you know not to put anybody under the bus, this is inevitable. You know you feel widespread use of guns, you’re going to get widespread retailing of guns, and there'll be risks all the way through the system. In our case, it was a gun stolen that ended up in the hands of the criminal that perpetrated this act. So I don't know how that would work? If Saskatchewan had a different attitude than Ontario towards handgun ownership, does that help? I'm not sure it would.

CO: And we know that there are 13 people — injured including your daughter Samantha — and two people killed in that shooting. How is Samantha doing now?

KP: Well, I'm happy to say that my fierce, brave daughter has moved into her second year at university. And you know it's not the same for her in terms of the things that she does — her trust with the city in certain circumstances. She goes to school outside of the city of Toronto. That wasn’t on purpose, that was where she was going anyway. But I'd say it has made a difference. And for the other families even a more profound one. One described that you know the shock is starting to wear off, but now the pain is felt more acutely. And I think it's just a reminder to everyone about what we're talking about here, which are deadly weapons, the consequence of making a mistake. In terms of putting guns in the wrong hands, it’s to have a lifetime of grief for some family and loss of life in many cases, which is what we're trying to address.

CO: Last week, we interviewed a family friend of a teenager who was shot and killed in that shooting spree in the GTA. There were seven shooters who showed up with handguns, and fired more than 100 rounds in a busy area where kids were around. And more shootings last night, another person was killed. What do you think can be done? What needs to happen in your view?

KP: Well, I think there are three things that that need to happen. And they all need to happen. And in each of them could have an effect. You know one is we need to address gun policy. And we would say that certain classes of weapons should be you know not in private hands — that would help. You know, because there's no question that some legal guns are diverted into illegal use — intentionally or unintentionally. The second part is around illegal guns and activity — that's the part that Mr. Scheers is correct about, and Mr. Trudeau would say the same thing, there needs to be resources to enforce the laws that exist and to stop guns from coming in illegally. And I think third part that hasn't been really discussed is the effect of you know specific neighbourhoods or specific communities that ask for assistance to create programs, hope, you know opportunity that persuades people that are a legal rather than an illegal path forward. You know, to live in this country as prosperous as we are we should be able to make it such that people don't have to choose that lifestyle. And so I think all three of those things are required. But it doesn't mean that we shouldn't address each of them separately — that a handgun ban wouldn't help, for example, even as we work on these other problems.

CO: Ken, I really appreciate hearing from you. Thank you.

KP: Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity. Thank you.

CO: Bye.

KP: Bye.

LvO: Ken Price is the father of Samantha Price who survived being shot in last year's shooting on Toronto's Danforth Avenue. We reached Mr. Price in Toronto.

[Music: Sombre]

Climate change essay

Guest: Larissa Parker

LvO: For a crisis of global proportions, a response of global proportions. Today, hundreds of thousands of young people are taking to the streets around the world — from Australia, to India, to Germany, to Kenya, to the United States, and beyond — to demand action on climate change.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: A crowd chants “what do we want?” followed by “climate action” followed by “when do we want it?” and lastly, “Now”]

SPEAKER: We are creating this movement every day because every day of inaction draws more action from us.

[Sound: A crowd cheers “hey hey, hoah hoah, climate change has got to go”]

SPEAKER: It's vital that young people are at the forefront of this conversation because they will be impacted more than anyone else.

SPEAKER: Most of us in our age were more mature, and I feel like we could say something for ourselves. And we have opinions that matter too.

[A chant of “the kids are right. Join the fight”]

SPEAKER: So what we personally can do to help the climate is, first of all, change the mindsets of our governments, of the people.

SPEAKER: So we have to get the message clear. We have to get the message across to these policymakers. You need change makers that we are the people that be affected by climate change, and we need action.

SPEAKER: We’re missing our education to come here today. Our education won’t be important if we don’t have a life to live for anymore.

LvO: Some sound from youth-led climate change protests around the world today. Those protests are unfolding on the eve of the United Nations' first-ever Youth Climate Summit, happening in New York City this weekend. McGill University law student Larissa Parker will be at that summit. She was invited after winning The Economist's Open Future Essay Competition. Ms. Parker's winning essay was entitled, "Make a healthy climate a legal right that extends to future generations." We reached Larissa Parker in Montreal.

CO: Larissa, first of all, congratulations on winning this competition.

LARISSA PARKER: [slight laugh] Thank you so much.

CO: What is it that has won this for you? What's the legal argument that you're making?

LP: Currently, the way the legal system works is you're only allowed to sue for what is happening to you now or what happened to you in the past. And in the context of a problem like climate change where the effects take years to manifest, that simply doesn't work. So what I'm arguing is that we need to expand legal standing to include future generations so that people can sue for their rights.

CO: We’re in a situation where there's still so much denial that climate change is even happening, or that it's going to actually cause the disaster that has been predicted. There are people pushing back on that. So how do you make your case? How would you prove that climate change is going to have that impact on your children and grandchildren?

LP: Well, I think the science is on my side. I think the most recent IPCC report is really very clear. I think small islands, marginalized groups all over the world, are experiencing climate change now already. I think we're already also experiencing it here. Like the months of June and July were the hottest ever. So, to me, I think we're seeing it ourselves. But we're also hearing about it. And scientists are telling us that in the future, these impacts are going to be serious.

CO: Is there any precedent for this? Any other place, any jurisdiction where there has been a case of suing the state for climate change and its effect on the yet unborn?

LP: Yeah, so that's really exciting. I mean the case that I talk about in the essay is this famous Philippines case called Oposa v. Factoran, where an NGO representing the future generations really is suing the government for logging licenses, and offering too many. And their argument is that if you cut down these many trees, it's going to have serious impact on future generations. And the court actually sides with them. And they're actually cases I think in England, there is one in the U.S. that's still trying to get to the courts, there's one just recently in Quebec that's now going to be appealed. So there is movement in the courts. And I think we're seeing an increased amount of judges being willing to see these kinds of claims.

CO: Do you think is possible, because you're in law school, you want to become a lawyer, can you imagine that you might be filing a suit against the Canadian government for failing to protect future generations from climate change?

LP: I mean totally if that opportunity presents itself. I think it really depends what kind of action the government takes. Currently, I do not think the government is taking enough action on climate change. And I think when I am a lawyer, which it’ll be a few years, if the opportunity presents itself, I welcome it.

CO: Now, one legal issue that might arise is the idea of giving the unborn rights or legal status may have pushback legally because the same argument is made against abortion. Have you considered that?

LP: No, snd it is very complicated. I mean the one thing that always comes back too, for me, is at the moment, there are entities that don't really have the ability to speak that are given rights — very young children, for example, or corporations. Today, in New Zealand, there are natural places, so a river, which have been given legal rights. And so I think there is an increase in society today where we are willing to do that. And so I think because even though future generations can't speak for themselves. It's not, to me, such a radical idea that we can't imagine what they would want.

CO: We are watching the young people around the world bringing this case forward, kids on strike from school, protests like all the ones you've been part of, this U.N. summit. What does it feel like to be a young person and to be trying to make this kind of massive change?

LP: I guess there’s an optimistic answer, and there is a pessimistic one. The strikes I think are amazing. Whether you're involved in the movement or not, just seeing how many people come out, and how many places around the world are participating, it’s a unifying feeling, which I think is truly lovely. I think the pessimistic one is that people deep down I mean the reason youth are in the streets are because they don't feel like they have that much political power, yet the decision makers today are deciding on… I mean the impacts of the decisions are going to be the future. And so I think at the same time, it's frustrating to be a young person, and to want to have a decision makers take our long term needs a bit more seriously and not be able to participate in the political process.

CO: We recently spoke with David Suzuki, who's doing a country-wide campaign. He's going in talking to young people in universities. And he said that the thing that pains him the most is that he and his generation parted like there was no tomorrow, that consumed vast amounts of the earth's resources, enjoyed all the travel and flying around and everything, and now turning to your generation saying hey, you're going to have to do better. You're going to have to fix this. Do you regret that or even resent that at any level?

LP: It's hard to resent people who didn't have all the information back then. I think for me now, knowing that we have all the information now and not seeing any changes, I am starting I feel that year after year being a bit more disappointed. But no, I wouldn't go so far as saying resentment. But I also don't hold grudges. So that might also be case.

CO: All right. I'll accept your disappointment though. [LP laughs] Larissa, I wish you best of success, and I hope that this United Nations Youth Climate Summit is great for you. But thank you for speaking with us.

LP: Thank you so much for having me. Have a wonderful day.

CO: Bye.

LP: Bye.

LvO: Larissa Parker is a second-year law student at McGill University, and the winner of The Economist's Open Future Essay Competition. We reached her in Montreal, moments before she left for the UN's first-ever Youth Climate Summit — being held this weekend in New York City. Here in Canada, students are marching today for climate action today — and many more protests are scheduled for next week.

[Music: Instrumental]

Vagina museum

Guest: Florence Schechter

LvO: If you're an avid As It Happens listener, you may be familiar with Sigurdur Hjartarson. He's the founder of the Icelandic Phallological Museum. Which, to save time, is usually referred to as the Penis Museum. For years, Mr. Hjartarson and his collection of phalluses — or "phalli"? — have had a monopoly on a very particular market.. Namely museums devoted to genitals. But that's about to change. Florence Schechter is founder of London's new Vagina Museum -- set to open its doors next month. We reached Ms. Schechter in London.

CO: Florence, is the world really ready for a vagina museum?

FLORENCE SCHECHTER: If it was ready, it would be too late to make one. [CO and FS chuckle] I think kind of the whole reason that we're making it is because it's needed, you know? So we still get a lot of giggles, and a lot of people saying oh my God, I can't believe you're doing that! But that's kind of why we need it really.

CO: Well, what do you think you can accomplish with a vagina museum?

FS: Well, what I'm hoping is to really de-stigmatize this part of the body. So it’s a really you know tabooed topic. And that has lots of real-world consequences. You know like people being too embarrassed to go to get their cervical smears, and people not being able to talk to their doctors. It becomes very difficult to talk about it, which has this impact on your life. And a museum, you know museums are used by societies and communities to showcase what they think is important. And so by having a vagina museum, it's us as a community coming together and saying this part of the body should be valued and should be celebrated.

CO: We have interviewed the founding director of the penis museum, which is in Iceland. And you know that he collects fallacies of all animals — including people. Do you actually have specimens of vaginas on display in your museum?

FS: We won't have any specimens — but we might in the future. The first museum's quite small because this is just our first premises. And so our exhibition is going to range from everything from science and health, to art, to culture, to you know social history. So there’ll be lots and lots of different types of things on display.

CO: You have a crowd funding campaign and a video. Can you describe to people how you're dressed up?

FS: Yeah. So we put on what is essentially a vulva suit. It was like a dress-up costume where it turns your whole body into a vulva, and your head is the clitoris. I was a lot of fun — very warm.

CO: Now, you're saying something very important because it's a vulva costume, and that there is always this discussion about that people don't know that there is a vulva and a vagina. And so your vagina museum also includes vulva’s, I presume?

FS: Yes, exactly. Yeah, the name was quite difficult because the museum is going to be about everything from the ovaries and the uterus, to the clitoris, and the labia, and everything in between. So the most accurate sort of name would actually be the gynecological museum. [CO chuckles] But obviously that sounds super gross. Like who would go to that except like medical students? So we were trying to think what where can we use that's actually accessible? And we got down to vagina and vulva. Where vagina is just like the bit put things up, and then babies come out nine months later. Or you can put all sorts of things up there. And then the vulva is the outside bits. So it's what you see on the external genitalia. And what we found is that very few people know the words vulva. So if we were to call it the vulva museum, a lot of people would just kind of ignore it. They would say oh, I don't know what that is. It must not be relevant to me and walk on by. And the people who would know what it is like you know they already know it a lot.

CO: Do you think that women as well who don't know the difference between a vulva and a vagina?

FS: Oh, loads, loads. I read that one in five women in the U.K. don't know that they pee and menstruate from different holes. I think there's a huge lack of knowledge.

CO: But okay, So you decided to call it the Vagina Museum, that's the tub-y bit as you call it. And your first exhibit is called Muff Busters. So what can we expect from that show?

FS [slight chuckle] So it's going to be exploring those myths that we hear about so much. You know like if you have loads sex, your vagina will get really loose. And you can tell if someone's a virgin by like how long their labia are. You know all these kind of myths that pervade this part of the anatomy. And then the exhibition will explore what's the truth behind them, why they persist, and how we can try and fight them.

CO: But if you're saying that people are so shy about their anatomy, [trying not to laugh] why do you think they’ll go to your museum?

FS: [chuckling] Something that I've really found is that people desperate to talk about these kind of things. Because they feel like if they talk about it with their friends, they'll be ridiculed. If they go to their doctor’s, they’ll be humiliated. And so when they see the Vagina Museum then suddenly these like floodgates open of like years and years of conversations that people have been desperate to have. And so I think that's why people will visit.

CO: Well, Florence, best of luck with your vagina museum. it's great to talk to you. Thank you.

FS: Thank you.

CO: Bye.

FS: Bye.

LvO: Florence Schechter is the founder of the Vagina Museum — which opens next month in London. You can find out more about it on our website — that's cbc.ca/aih. As we mentioned, Ms. Schechter is following in the footsteps of another anatomically inclined curator: Sigurdur Hjartarson. He's the founder of the Icelandic Phallological Museum -- which has dozens of phalluses of all types of creatures. But back in August 2007, he was looking to get his hands on one specimen in particular — a human phallus. From our archives, here's Carol's converation with Mr. Hjartarson.

SOUNDCLIP

SIGURDUR HJARTARSON: I have been collecting for 33 years now, and I'm still waiting for a human one. But I got four letters of donation.

CO: So where are these letters of donation coming from?

SH: Well, one is Icelandic. And then I have got three foreign — ones English, one German, and one American.

CO: And so what is it about their penises that they feel that should be in their museum?

SH: Well, the first one — the Icelander — he was a famous womanizer. And the English man is a TV personality. The German is a photographer. But the American is he is talking about having it removed soon, before he dies.

CO: Are you discouraging the American from making this donation, I hope?

SH: No, no, no, I'm not discouraging him. No, no, no.

CO: I mean like before he dies that he would donate it.

SH: Well, that’s his problem, or his decision. He's a remarkable guy. He has eight tattoos on his penis. And he's having them removed now by laser, and going to put, at my suggestion, a beautiful big tattoo of the American flag.

CO: On his penis?

SH: Yeah.

CO: So you'd like to have a penis with an American flag on it then?

SH: Yeah, I’d appreciate that.

CO: So you want to complete your collection there. Do you want just a garden variety example, or are you looking for something quite spectacular?

SH: Well, it must be of a legal length, which is five inches.

CO: A legal length?

SH: Yeah, that's according to an old Icelandic folk tale from the 18th century about a lady who wanted a divorce from her husband because he has only three inches.

CO: So are you planning to donate your own to the museum when you die?

SH: Absolutely, yes, of course.

CO: So you obviously you meet the legal standard then I presume?

SD: I did anyway in the old times [CO chuckels] I haven't measured it for some years. But I did definitely in the old times.

LvO: From August 28, 2007, that's Carol's conversation with Sigurdur Hjartarson, founder of the Icelandic Phallological Museum. He has since been able to secure a human specimen. And there's more on that story, as well, on our website at cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Folk]

Part two: Trudeau picture, Captain Cook ship.

Trudeau picture

Guest: Sunny Khurana

LvO: Several pictures, worth several thousand words. Among them: "disturbing," "hypocritical," and "racist." It's been revealed this week, through old photos and video, that Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau has donned brownface or blackface at least three times in the past. The images getting perhaps the most attention feature Mr. Trudeau at an "Arabian Nights" themed gala in 2001, when he taught at a Vancouver private school, West Point Grey Academy. Mr. Trudeau is covered in dark brown makeup and he's wearing a turban. Sunny Khurana remembers that costume well. He was at that gala, too. He's a Sikh man who posed next to Justin Trudeau in one of those photographs. We reached him in Surrey, B.C.

CO: Sunny, what have these past few days been for you?

SONNY KHURANA: I mean, of course, you know I mean I'm all over the news. It doesn't happen very often [chuckling].

CO: And what do you think of being in the news with this? How do you respond to all the people who want to know your view on being in this photo that has gone around the world, hasn't it?

SK: Actually, I think I mean the thing is because I'm in a the photo with the prime minister of Canada, I guess that's why it’s gone over all over the world. If it was a photo with somebody else, I guess it probably wouldn't have, right?

CO: It’s a photo of the prime minister in brown face.

SK: Yes, for sure.

CO: Dressed up and someone's identity as an ethnic costume. I think that what's caught people.

SK: Of course.

CO: What do you think of that image?

SK: Well, you know what? I mean the thing is I mean we were at that event, right? So I mean that's firsthand. You know obviously at that time you know it was a costume party — “Arabian Nights”. And you know people dressed up, and nobody even you know with our school’s background of being you know very mixed, it was very multicultural. We had a very mixed school. We had been in that school ever been in that school ever since it opened, and so you don't even think about it being as a racist thing actually.

CO: What do you remember about that “Arabian Nights” gala in 2001?

SK: Nothing, it was just a fun party — that's all there is. And there was there was nothing that you know and obviously being there, you know you get it first-hand. There was nobody really was being put down or anything like that — that was never the intention I don't think. Well, I know for sure it wasn't the intention. And nobody you know thought of it that. People were dressed up in different costumes, and you know it was there “Arabian Night”. It was “Aladdin”. And so you know just some of the characters from some of the movies, and just generally that's all it was.

CO: And a lot of people wearing turbans. You're wearing a turban, but that's legitimately part of your identity.

SK: That's right.

CO: What did it mean to you that people were dressed up and colored their face to look like you, and wearing clothes to look like you wearing a turban — that didn't affect you?

SK: No, no, not at all. Because they were not being disrespectful. If you feel that somebody is being disrespectful to you in some way, then it would be different, right? But nobody was being disrespectful. I mean everybody you know respectfully wore it. I mean you know they're wearing it the way it's supposed to be worn. I don't think anything of it. People like if they go to an Indian wedding, a lot of the non-Indians will wear an Indian outfit. I mean we don't we don't think twice about it. In fact, it's always nice to see somebody wearing you know a nice outfit.

CO: But I think the biggest issue wasn't the clothing. It was that he had coloured his face you know to look like a person of colour. I think that's what people have found offensive.

SK: And I mean obviously people found it offensive. And basically he apologized and moved forward with it. And, to me, that's more important, right?

CO: We spoke with NDP Leader Jagmeet Singh last night, who I'm sure you've heard that Jagmeet Singh was deeply offended by what Mr. Trudeau did. Do appreciate why he is?

SK: You know, I don't get into the politics of it. That’s in-between them. I mean people go through massive racism you know 50 years ago. You know when I was growing up was different. It's actually a lot better right now. Because 50 years ago, there weren’t very many turban Sikhs because a lot of people were very ignorant about you know what a Sikh was. Now, of course, you walk into Surrey, or you're going to Vancouver. and what not, everybody knows, you know>? So they don't even you know look twice. I mean they look at them you know as part of the Canadian fabric, right?

CO: Your kids were going to that school, weren't they? That’s why you were at the event. What are they saying now about this — everything that's going on the news?

SK: I don't think it matters or bothers them. I don't even ask them much about this kind of thing because, to me, I think it's kind of been you know obviously because of the election, right? Everybody thinks it's because the election. It’s 20 years later it's come out in the news, right?

CO: So it’s been overblown?

SK: I think so — especially 20 years later, right? But it's okay. It is what it is. I mean if people are offended by it, obviously you know the main thing to do is apologize and go forward with it, and that's it.

CO: Do you think that is someone dressed as Trudeau today that you wouldn't do that? That people know not to do that now to paint their face brown or black?

SK: Today, I mean I guess people are aware of it, and if they feel that that is the wrong thing, then going forward people won't do it, which is not a bad thing, right?

CO: So you think maybe this has been a teachable moment? This has been a bit of a wakeup call for people about this?

SK: Everything is a learning curve. I think you learn that any age you learn, right? I know once you've learned something then you just go forward and don't make the same mistakes. It's good you learned it and go forward with it. I think that's the forward way. Going backward is like you keep on just harping on it and keep on bashing them — that's going backwards.

CO: Does Mr. Trudeau, and the Liberals, do they have your vote?

SK: [laughing] That’s a personal thing. I don’t know. Maybe. You know what? Nothing wrong with it. Because you know why not. I voted other parties, so it’s not just Liberals. I’ve voted in many different ways. So I’m not stuck to one.

CO: You haven't made up your mind?

SK: Maybe I have. [laughs]

CO: But would this affect your vote? Does it influence the way you’ll choose?

SK: To the positive because he apologized.

CO: So you might you might actually vote for him.

SK: To the positive because he apologized. For sure. That would be a positive for me. Because the thing is that means he's learned his lesson of not doing it again. So, to me, that's way more important. Because ultimately, guess what? We're living in the same country. We're going to live together. It's not like Trudeau is going to move away after everything is all said and done or later on. So the thing is we have to be inclusive. We can’t kind of isolate people. It’s not a good thing. That's not what Canada is all about, right?

CO: Well, Sunny, I think you're a very wise and understanding man. And I appreciate that you’d speak with us. Thank you.

SK: Thank you.

CO: Bye-bye.

SK: Bye.

LvO: Sunny Khurana is one of the people featured alongside Justin Trudeau, in old photographs that emerged this week of the Liberal Leader in brownface. We reached Mr. Khurana in Surrey, B.C.

[Music: Jazz]

Rudy Giuliani

LvO: There are conflicting reports on whether the Trump Administration was pressuring a foreign country to dig up dirt on Joe Biden. Donald Trump's lawyer Rudy Giuliani insists that didn't happen. But someone in the know insists that it did happen: Rudy Giuliani, lawyer for Donald Trump. The Washington Post reported that the U.S. president had allegedly made a "promise" in a phone call with an unnamed foreign leader. That promise was, quote, "... so troubling that it prompted an official in the U.S. intelligence community to file a formal whistleblower complaint...." Unquote. And yesterday the Post added that Donald Trump had been speaking with the President of Ukraine at the time. Since then, some outlets have surmised that President Trump may have promised to give Ukraine 250 million in aid, which he's been withholding — but only if the Ukrainian president would start an investigation into possible corruption, involving Joe Biden and his son, Hunter. If you're troubled by the U.S. president asking a foreign country to interfere in an American election, that is a troubling promise. But it never happened. Except it did, and it's fine. Those are two of several approaches that Rudy Giuliani took last night in a combative, confusing, and extremely weird interview with CNN's Chris Cuomo. Here are few moments from that conversation.

SOUNDCLIP

CHRIS CUOMO: Did you to ask the Ukraine to investigate Joe Biden?

RUDY GIULIANI: No, actually I didn't. I asked the Ukraine to investigate the allegations that there was interference in the election of 2016 by the Ukrainians for the benefit of Hillary Clinton. For which there already is…

CC: You never asked anything about Hunter Biden? You never asked anything about Joe Biden and his role with the prosecutor?

RG: The only thing I asked about Joe Biden is to get to the bottom of how it was that [the prosecutor] who was appointed dismissed the case against…

CC: So you did ask Ukraine to look into Joe Biden?

RG: Of course, I did.

CC: You just said you didn't.

RG: No, I didn’t ask him to look into Joe Biden. I asked him to look into the allegations that related to my client, which tangentially involved Joe Biden in a massive bribery scheme.

CC: Rudy, rudy.

RG: Not unlike what he did in China.

CC: Rudy.

RG: You explain to me how the kid got one-point-five billion dollars from China.

CC: Rudy, I have no problem launching allegations, but just be careful about what you say. I asked you…

RG: I am very careful about what I say.

CC: I asked you did you ask Ukraine to look at Joe Biden? You said no. Then you went on to say that you did that. It’s all recorded.

RG: No, I didn't say that. What I said was this. I asked them to investigate the allegations that relate to the false charges against the president United States. Those allegations tangentially involve Biden.

LvO: In that clip it took Mr. Giuliani 30 seconds to contradict himself. Later, he managed to improve that time to a tight 8 seconds.

SOUNDCLIP

RG: And you want to cover some ridiculous charge that I urged the Ukrainian government to investigate corruption. Well I did, and I'm proud of it.

RG: Well, then it’s not a ridiculous allegation. You just admitted it.

LvO: That's Rudy Giuliani, lawyer for Donald Trump, baffling CNN's Chris Cuomo last night.

[Music: Jazz]

Captain Cook ship

Guest: Anahera Herbert-Graves

LvO: The explorer Captain James Cook is often celebrated as the "discoverer" of New Zealand. But not everyone celebrates him — including many Maori people. The New Zealand government is planning a commemoration of the 250th anniversary of Captain Cook landing on the island and meeting its Indigenous people next month. It's called Tuia 250, which translates to "encounters". It will have a replica of Cook's "Endeavor" ship making its way around New Zealand, stopping at Indigenous territories to mark those encounters. But one tribe — or iwi as they're called in New Zealand -- has refused, and banned the replica ship from docking on its territory. Anahera Herbert-Graves is the chief executive of the Ngati Kahu iwi, on New Zealand's northern island. We reached her in Kaitaia, New Zealand.

CO: Ms. Herbert-Graves, what did you think when you heard that this replica ship of James Cook's was going to come to your community?

ANAHERA HERBERT-GRAVES: I was very surprised. We hadn't been contacted. We hadn't heard a thing about the plan to come to our community at all. And also, because it was historically inaccurate for the replica to come into our community or into our territory, as the original never had come.

CO: Is that the only reason why you did not want to see the Endeavour, or are this replica of the Endeavour, come into your community?

AHG: No. When the original Cook commemoration began to be planned, it was clear that it was a commemoration of the forerunner of the colonisation experience for all the Maori nations in this country. And our sub-tribal groups, who have never, ever really accepted the session of sovereignty to the Queen of England, made it clear that they didn't want to take part in it. And it just wasn't figuring on their horizons or radar as being participants.

CO: This is to commemorate the beginning of the colonial history of the area of New Zealand. And this is something that is of great controversy in Australia, and in New Zealand. What does it mean to you that they are commemorating this? Is it a celebration, or are they looking at this history warts and all?

AHG: I think for us, well I know for us, that it actually means a renewal of the colonizing myths that they discovered a country called New Zealand. As I've said in the past, how can you discover something that was already populated? For us, it was really just a renewal, and a re-committal to the colonization experience. And a continuation of the denial of what that experience had been for the Indigenous people here. But there was a more sophisticated element to this denial in that they had used a Maori name, and clearly had gotten individual Maori on board to frame Cook as the centre of this whole commemoration. And they managed to do that, I think, by convincing these individuals that it was a way to tell our voyaging histories of 1,000 years. But the very name gives the lie to that. It's not called Tuia 1,000 it's called Tuia 250.

CO: Sorry, what does the word Tuia mean?

AHG: The word Tuia, there are several meanings for it, and the main one would be as part of a call, a call of welcome. So there is a phrase that we say down here saying tuia, tuia tui, tui, tuia.

CO: But it indicates though that by using Tuia 250, it's a celebration of the arrival of this British ship, an expedition that was intended to colonize with now New Zealand. Captain Cook has been called a barbarian by Maori. What's the legacy? How do people in your community, and Aboriginal people New Zealand, regard Captain Cook?

AHG: We do regard him as a murderer. We regard him as somebody who indulged in atrocious behaviours. He had 71 crew. And at least 60 of them were infected with syphilis. He knew that. He unleashed his men upon these islands knowing that they had syphilis. They indulged in pedophilic practices. In the diaries of Jorge Foster, he records with some shock that the girls that were brought on board for sex had showed not the least signs of puberty.

CO: Yeah, that's the important thing is that the diaries themselves — the journals of the crew members — are the evidence that they shot the Maori, they stole from them, they abducted them, and that whole communities were wiped out with sexually transmitted diseases. So that's what people remember of Captain Cook. And when you communicate this to the New Zealand Government that having Tuia 250 might be a bit offensive, how did they respond to you?

AHG: Initially, they said oh, we were approached by a group called Doubtless Bay Promotion Incorporated. We were approached and invited to come, so you will have to go and talk to them about you know uninviting us. We didn't go and approach them. We simply said to the New Zealand government spokesperson look, go ahead, be rude, you have been told that you are not welcome. So be rude because that’s kind of consistent with the legacy of the man you're commemorating.

CO: This commemoration is going to continue. And will you have any other protests, or do you think just banning this ship from coming to your community will be enough?

AHG: The commemoration will go ahead, but we will continue the work that really there is deep underlying causes to the colonization experience. And this is just one aspect of the battle to address those causes. And probably for us, this part of that battle is complete.

CO: But you know but you will continue your plan is just to you've done what you're going to do, and that's it?

AHG: Exactly. And we'll get on with addressing the underlying causes, such as the doctrine of discovery, and the lack of constitutional protections for our rights as Indigenous people and as human beings.

CO: Ms. Herbert-Graves I really appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

AHG: My pleasure, Carol. [Speaking in a foreign language] Bye.

AHG: Bye.

LvO: Anahera Herbert-Graves is the chief executive of the Ngati Kahu iwi, which has banned a Captain Cook replica ship from landing on its territory. We reached her in Kaitaia, New Zealand. And we've posted more on that story on our website: www.cbc.ca/asithappens.

[Music: Ambient]

Hearse Fest

SOUNDCLIP

SPEAKER: Granddad was a priest in Trinidad. He used to tell us when there's no more room in Hell, the dead will walk the earth.

LvO: The most famous line from George Romero's movie "Dawn of the Dead". Which I'll amend for this next story: when there's no more room in Hell, you have to move Hearse Fest. That's Hearse Fest as in: fest of hearses. An annual event devoted to the vehicle that never picks up the same people it drops off. Since 2000, it's been held in Hell, Michigan. But it's gotten too big for that small town. There's just no way in Hell. So this weekend, Hearse Fest will take place in Fowlerville, Michigan instead. According to organizer Ronnie Duke, of the group Just Hearse N' Around, people will be coming from all over the U.S., Canada, and Europe. There will be hearse paraphernalia, a costume contest, and a guest appearance by Butch Patrick, who played Eddie Munster on "The Munsters", because why not. And attendees will try to reclaim the world record they set in 2011 for "longest parade of hearses". Kids under 16 get in free, because quote: "if you're under 16, you could be an aspiring hearse owner and we just want to encourage that. There's nothing strange about it." Unquote. Well, there is something strange about it. But if you love hearses — classic or flashy customized ones — head to Fowlerville this weekend. Once you get there, wild hearses couldn't drag you away.

[Music: Ambient]

Part three: Ed Buck arrest, First Nations library

Old sourdough

LvO: Deep in Ione Christensen's fridge, on the top shelf — next to the pickles and last night's leftovers — is a small container with a peeling label on the lid. It reads "DO NOT THROW OUT" in capital letters. This is Ms. Christensen's 120-year-old sourdough starter. It's been in her family since her great-grandfather brought it with him to Dawson City in 1898. He came from New Brunswick, as part of the Klondike Gold Rush. Fast-forward a couple of centuries, and Ione Christensen's sourdough is still travelling. Last year, it went to the Puratos Sourdough Library in Belgium. The library collects and tests sourdough samples from around the world — and now it's released its test results on Ione's sample. It turns out that what's living in her sourdough are three different types of bacteria, and one type of yeast. That yeast is similar to many of the yeasts found in San Francisco sourdoughs...which may help explain where her starter actually started. Ione Christensen spoke with the CBC's Jane Sponagle in Whitehorse yesterday.

SOUNDCLIP

IONE CHRISTENSEN: It had a lot of the characteristics of the sour dough that came from San Francisco. So that sort of fit in well with my thought that my great grandfather didn't bring it with him from New Brunswick. That he, in fact, had probably picked it up with others at Dieppe, when they were getting ready to come over the pass. And so that sort of makes sense. I mean I somehow just can't see you know five men leaving home and saying oh, we have to take our sourdough [chuckle]. But I still have quite a little container full of dried just in case. You know, both my sons use it. And it tastes different in their house when you have it. I have one son just two houses over, and it’s still different.

LvO: And that was Ione Christensen in Whitehorse. She was speaking with CBC reporter Jane Sponagle about her 120-year-old sourdough starter.

[Music: Ambient]

Ed Buck arrest

Guest: Nana Gyamfi

LvO: In 2017, a 26-year-old named Gemmel Moore died at a West Hollywood apartment of an overdose. It was Ed Buck's apartment. Mr. Buck is a Democratic donor in the U.S. And yesterday, more than two years after that death, federal prosecutors charged him with distribution of a methamphetamine resulting in that death. Court documents describe a man who solicited several men for sexual favours, using drugs and money. The federal charges come after the LA County District Attorney's Office charged Mr. Buck earlier this week with, among other things, maintaining a drug house. Nana Gyamfi is the co-counsel in Gemmel Moore's family's civil suit. She's also representing the family of another man that died at Mr. Buck's home. We reached Ms. Gyamfi in Washington, D.C. And a warning, some details in this interview are disturbing.

CO: Ms. Gyamfi, I understand you have been in touch with Gemmel Moore's mother. How did she feel when she saw Ed Buck arrested this week?

NANA GYAMFI: She felt great. I mean it was instantaneous tears. And she describes them as tears of joy. She felt you know elated. This is over two years that she has been really at the forefront of this fight for justice. At the same time, you know feeling cautious knowing how the criminal sanction system works in the United States, and the fact that we are talking about a person who is wealthy, who is white, who is politically-connected, and we know that this case can go any way at any moment.

CO: Just tell our listeners who is Ed Buck, and what is he accused of doing?

NG: So Ed Buck is a wealthy, white donor. He at one point was a Republican. Now he's a Democrat. And it's really connected with some of the top folks, not just in Southern California, but nationally in the Democratic Party as a donor to their causes. He also is a well-connected person in West Hollywood, which is best known for being one of the places where you should be safe as a member of the LGBTQ community in the United States. But he was making it unsafe for black, gay men, who he was connecting up with. Using various forms of social media as well as going out himself — hooking up with a gay black man for the purposes of injecting them with methamphetamine to the point that they were in pain, some had overdosed, two men died — Gemmel Moore and Tim Dean — 18 months apart.

CO: And, of course, these are allegations yet to be proven in court. But the case of Gemmel Moore goes back two years, as you say. What do you allege happened to Gemmel Moore, if you can go through that story?

NG: So there is a culture in West Hollywood in particular in which folks engage in what is called “party-and-play”, and there's that sort of understanding that people are going to engage in drug use, that there's going to be some sex at some level, and that is you know some part of some folks culture there. What had happened in the case of Ed Buck is that he actually was using this culture as a cover, our allegations are, for something way more sinister, where he was targeting black, gay men — mainly young men — who are in vulnerable positions. Maybe they were housing-insecure, or they had addictions, other reasons that made them vulnerable to his predations. And so Gemmel Moore, unfortunately, fell into the trap of Ed Buck. He describes in his journal, because of course he's not here to tell us, he describes in his journal that Ed Buck is the first person who gave him methamphetamine. That Ed Buck injected him. That he became addicted to methamphetamine. He actually had left L.A., gone back home to Texas, where his family is from. Ed Buck was able to manipulate his addictions to get him back, flew Gemmel back to Los Angeles, got him an Uber from the airport to his home. And by the next day, Gemmel Moore was taken out of Ed Buck’s apartment in a body bag dead.

CO: In the court documents, one of the one of the victims — Victim Six — as is listed in the documents says that Mr. Buck was nicknamed Dr. Kevorkian because of what you describe, the role playing and the fantasy of do inject people with methamphetamine. And so was Mr. Buck well-known in the LGBTQ community of West Hollywood? Was this an issue that people talked about that he was potentially a very dangerous person?

NG: What appears to be happening, or what we're seeing is that Ed Buck was known generally in the West Hollywood community. He was someone who was very politically active in that community beyond his donations, right — especially around issues of animal rights, and other issues. And so he was known. And he was presented as someone who was you know sort of aboveboard very respectable. What we found out as we talked to people who we then brought to the sheriff's department as witnesses is that he also had this other part to him. Now we have not found that generally the white LGBT community West Hollywood has been willing to admit that people knew this about him. But when you talk to the black LGBTQ community, this is when you begin to hear about this other side of Ed Buck.

CO: As you know, Mr. Buck's lawyer, he told the New York Times that they will fight this case vigorously — that’s a quote. And they have denied the accusations that he preyed on gay, black men. And his lawyers also deny that Mr. Buck was responsible for anything related to the deaths of the two men. What do you say to Mr. Buck's lawyer?

NG: Well, Seymour Amster also represented Lonnie Franklin, who we know as the Grim Sleeper — a case that I also worked down with Community and Family — who killed and disappeared black women, and had the same thing to say about Lonnie Franklin. So you know this is the position you find yourself in when you represent people who serially harm and kill black people in Los Angeles. We know, and we have the evidence, which is why we've also filed civil lawsuit against Mr. Buck, to prove who Mr. Buck is and what Mr. Buck did to not just Gemmel Moore and Timothy Dean, but to countless others.

CO: We will leave it there. Mr. Gyamfi, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

NG: Thank you so very much. Thank you for inviting me to share this important story.

CO: Bye-bye.

NG: Bye-bye.

LvO: That was attorney Nana Gyamfi speaking to us from Washington D.C., following charges against Democratic donor Ed Buck this week.

[Music: Sombre]

Alberta child death

LvO: When the verdict was announced, David and Collet Stephan embraced — and their supporters cheered in the courtroom. You've probably heard about the couple's case over the years. They were charged with failing to provide the necessaries of life, after their toddler, Ezekiel, died in 2012. The couple did not take their son to the doctor when he was ill — and gave him herbal remedies. A medical examiner had previously said that Ezekiel died of bacterial meningitis. But yesterday, the judge agreed with a pathologist for the defense, who said the toddler died because he was deprived of oxygen. And so the judge found the couple not guilty in this retrial. This morning, David Stephan spoke with CBC host Rob Brown on the “Eyeopener”, about why he thought this case was controversial.

SOUNDCLIP

DAVID STEPHAN: You know the reality of this is that this could have happened to any parent. It really could have. And you know with the way that it's been misrepresented by many different media sources and whatnot, it has created a major controversy, a lot of vitriol out in the public realm. And so I would say that based on the information that people are basing their judgments off of, that's why it's been so polarizing.

ROB BROWN: How has it been misrepresented?

DS: Well, even just in the most recent reports, what we're seeing is that in the headlines, there's still the bacterial meningitis death is being used, or even meningitis death. The fact of the matter is, and what was identified within the courts, is that meningitis is not what caused Ezekiel to die. It was the meningitis that he had at the time of autopsy was not progressed enough to cause any effects on the brain that would stop Ezekiel from breathing. The evidence before the courts is that he ended up dying because of the hypoxic injury that he received from the ill-equipped ambulance that was manned by Alberta Health Service employees.

RB: I think part of the reason why so many people seem to have been so invested in this, even though they're not directly connected to the case is because it is universal in the sense of parents you know tending to their children. And there were questions obviously about whether or not you were doing that properly. So looking back, cause of death set aside, at that period when as you kill was ill in 2012, is there anything that you and Collet think you should have done differently?

DS: Well, looking back, hindsight always gives a lot more clarity. And you know I'd say any reasonable parent looking back at a situation like this knowing what the outcome would've been, would have done something differently. There's no doubt about that.

RB: What would have that been?

DS: You know if we had had a crystal ball, and were able to look at it and say well even those symptoms don't really match that of meningitis, they're really low-lying symptoms that we were initially thinking was you know the oncoming of the flu. You know if we knew where it was going to go, of course, we would have taken them to a doctor. Would it have made a difference? Would the doctor have taken us seriously? That's a whole nother question. But as parents, that's exactly what we would have done. Just because as a loving parent, who wants to put their child in harm's way? Who wants to lose a child?

LVvO: That was part of David Stephan's conversation this morning with the CBC, after he and his wife were found not guilty in their son Ezekiel's death.

[Music: Sombre]

First Nations library

Guest: Shirley Cire

LvO: Shirley Cire's been thinking about it since she was hired more than two years ago. And today, it officially opened. For the first time, the First Nations community of Maskwacis has a library. It's in the Howard Buffalo Memorial Centre, which is about 90 kilometers south of Edmonton. Today, people gathered at the library for its grand opening. We reached Shirley Cire just before the celebrations began.

CO: Shirley, I know you're getting ready for the grand opening of the library today. You're really busy, but what's it like for you that you're finally at this place?

SHIRLEY CIRE: I am so very pleased. It's been a long time coming, a lot of hard work. But today, I am pleased to say that we are open, and I welcome all the community in, so that they come and see their space.

CO: What will they see when they walk in?

SC: What they're going to see is all community-minded. We have a lot of Indigenous material for them. We have computers that they can they can use. I have a printer that if they need to print their resumes. A children's area, so the little ones can sit and play.

CO: And it's a library, so you have books, don't you?

SC: Oh, we have books. We do have books. And within the next year, I'd like to double the collection.

CO: And books, DVDs, all kinds of.

SC: Material.

CO: Materials. Audio books as well?

SC: Audio books, I need to build — and also large print. But that will come. What we wanted to do was get in the space, and that's what we have done.

CO: What does this mean for the people of Maskwacis to have this public library?

SC: They are pleased because they don't have to go to the next community, the surrounding communities, to go to a library because everything that they want to use in a library they can have here. Libraries are a hub. They now have their own that they can use.

CO: We've done many stories with people who are trying to keep libraries open in small communities, having to close libraries and move them, spoken to so many librarians, and they say that same thing that the library is a major cultural centre for any community. That's how you see it?

SC: Oh totally, I see that. Since coming here last year bringing the pop up, I have signed over 300 patrons up, and I continue to sign on a weekly basis. I have different community members coming in.

CO: And what do they say to you?

SC: A library, wow! I wish I would have known earlier. So you know they're just very pleased they have their own space to come to now.

CO: And this is in a community of 15,000 people.

SC: I would say.

CO: What other centres are there? What does this represent as far as having a kind of institution of this nature?

SC: It represents a place of learning. You want to come, and if you're in school and you need to do some research, you can go on and search on computers. This is a place where people that don't have it, they're able to come here.

CO: How difficult was it for you to get this library going?

SC: I wouldn't say it was difficult. It was just a lot of work. But the support that I received from Parkland Regional Library public library service branch, and also from Howard Buffalo Memorial Centre, where our library is located, they all have been very supportive. And that has made it easier for us to establish.

CO: And how were you able to get the books?

SC: We've purchased our material. A lot of the books that we have now, they were purchased for the pop pup library, so we just incorporated it into the library space now.

CO: And the pop up library is what you had last year, right?

SC: That's correct.

CO: We know that that the community, Maskwacis, has suffered a great deal in this past year, hasn't it? I mean in the month over Christmas and New Year's, a number of people — 14 people — took their lives. What has that trauma done to the community?

SC: I believe you know we all push forward. We have a lot of healing. And I'm happy to say that I do have a particular patron who comes and sits, and this is a place he said that he feels very safe, and it's a healing place for him.

CO: And do others feel that way? Is this a community centre where you can go and find that peace?

SC: I believe so. There is a lot of children activities that go on at Howard Buffalo Memorial Centre, so a lot of the children do come into our space, you know? And I'm proud to say that they do not always go on the computer. They take the books off the shelves and sit and read.

CO: Well, Shirley, I'm glad you were able to do this and finally get it open. I know it was a big struggle. And I appreciate you speaking with us. Thank you.

SC: Oh, for sure. Thank you so much.

LvO: Shirley Cire is the manager of the first library to open in the First Nations community of Maskwacis. Today was the library's grand opening. We reached Ms. Cire in Maskwacis.

[Music: Banjo]

U-Vic student

LvO: Students at the University of Victoria are in mourning, after a routine field trip to the Bamfield Marine Sciences Centre took a tragic turn last Friday. Two students were killed, after their bus toppled off a gravel road into a ravine. Earlier this week, we told you how the local Huu-ay-aht First Nation has been calling for upgrades to the road for years. Now, another voice is joining their cause. Sarah Hunter is one of the survivors of the crash. She's launched an online petition to improve the road. So far, about 9,000 people have added their signatures. The U-Vic student spoke to Gloria Macarenko — host of "On the Coast" in Vancouver — about the petition, and what went through her mind when the accident happened.

SOUNDCLIP

SARAH HUNTER: Probably the first thing is we're all going to die, and then a lot of feeling of helplessness. And not knowing what to do necessarily. It was basically waiting to see if we were going to stop, or if we were going to roll. At that point, we were completely on our side, on the right side of the bus. It had fallen over onto the right, and then almost onto the ceiling. We were like half a roll in when the treeline had caught the bus. So we had stayed stationary in that position when the bus had stopped moving completely. I was hearing lots of screams, and cries, and people yelling out that like people were passed out, and that they were injured. And I remember one girl very vividly had thought that she had a brain bleed, or she was just freaking out because she didn't know what happened. She just had hit her head really hard, and she was really worried that the bus was going to roll.

GLORIA MACARENKO: Oh my goodness! what a horrific, horrific ordeal for all of you. We've talked about the condition of that road to Bamfield. We've heard from people who have been calling for changes and improvements to that road. Why did you start your petition?

SH: Originally, I was just a little bit angry. I was angry because two lives right in front of me were taken for any reason or cause. And just all the fact that this tragedy and heartache and pain could have been avoided just with the proper planning and precaution of the trip. I feel like I was helpless to the situation when I was in it, and I didn't want to feel helpless anymore. I wanted to give a voice to Emma and John, who are no longer here to prevent this from happening ever again.

LvO: That's Sarah Hunter, speaking with the CBC's Gloria Macarenko. Ms. Hunter was a survivor of last Friday's fatal bus crash on the road to Bamfield on Vancouver Island.

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