Note: Transcripts may contain errors. If you wish to re-use all, or part of, a transcript, please contact CBC for permission. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. Copyright © CBC 2019

The AIH Transcript for October 18, 2019

Hosts: Carol Off and James Murray

CAROL OFF: Hello, I'm Carol Off.

JAMES MURRAY: Good evening, I'm James Murray. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

JM: Tonight:

CO: The chaining of the guard. In Germany, 93-year-old Bruno Dey is on trial for being an accessory to the murders of more than 5,000 people — because when he was 17, he was a guard at a Nazi concentration camp.

JM: The balance of power in the balance. If Monday's election produces a minority government, the NDP may wind up with a lot of influence; we'll find out how the party is preparing for its turn in the driver's seat.

CO: The moral compass of the story. A fellow U.S. Congressman remembers the late Democrat Elijah Cummings, who fought for what he believed in — and, in the case of Donald Trump, against who he didn't believe in.

JM: The art of shelf-defence. On last night's program, Toronto's City Librarian defended renting space to a writer accused of being transphobic — and she cited free speech, you contacted us to speak freely.

CO: What's in a namesake? In a new documentary, one family finds out — when a refugee from Afghanistan looks to reconnect with his homeland by buying his kids plots of land in Kandahar. Kandahar, Saskatchewan.

JM: And...hot to trot. It's obvious why Saharan silver ants are in a hurry to get across the scorching sand — but now, a scientist can bring us up to speed on how they zip around so fast.

JM: As It Happens, the Friday edition. Radio that assumes finally learning their secret must be a bit of an anty climax.

[Music: Theme]

Part one: German guard trial, Elijah Cummings obit, fastest ant

German guard trial

Guest: Ben Cohen

JM: A 93-year-old German man is on trial today — accused of being an accessory to the murders of more than five-thousand people. Bruno Dey was a Nazi SS guard at the Stutthof concentration camp during the Second World War. And he may be one of the last to be prosecuted for his actions during the Holocaust. Thousands of people were murdered at the Stutthof camp. One of them was Ben Cohen's great-grandmother. His grandmother was also at the camp, but she survived. She's one of the co-plaintiffs in the case. Mr. Cohen was in the courtroom today, and we reached him in Hamburg, Germany.

CO: Mr. Cohen, what has it been like for you to be in the courtroom to see Bruno Day face trial?

BEN COHEN: You know this is the second trial that I have attended on behalf of my grandmother, Judy Meisel. And the anticipation on the first day is always really high. You know, seeing the accused brought in a wheelchair for the first time is always really very intense. There's a little bit of an almost feeling of theatre to what's going on sometimes in the courtroom. It's been a really remarkable experience. And in a way, I’ve felt like I've had a good chance to engage with the process.

CO: Your grandmother has been speaking with German officials about her experiences. That she didn't go. She is I believe 90 years old, is that right?

BC: She is currently 90 years old. She lives in Minnesota. And the only reason I'm here in Hamburg is because she can't be here herself. She wishes she could have come and stood in that courtroom and given her testimony in person and looked the perpetrator in the eye. But she can't. Because she's 90, traveling here is no longer possible. I felt it was important that someone from our family could be here to be a witness to these trials. My great grandmother was murdered in the gas chamber at Stutthof. My grandmother survived with her sister, Rachel. And you know for me to be able to be here is in its own way just a miracle.

CO: Stutthof is the camp where Bruno Day was a guard. He started there when he was 17 years old. What does your grandmother remember? What does she say in her remarks about her memories of Bruno Day and her time there?

CO: And, of course, Bruno Day himself is open about this, right? He actually he says he was a camp guard. He was there. He was aware of what was going on. But he says he personally didn't kill anyone. What's your response to what he's had to say?

BC: In Bruno day's case, as you said, you know he has been willing to cooperate and say quite a bit to the investigators. You know there's a 200-page transcript of his statements that he made to the investigators over the last few years. And so I think that it's actually a really good thing that we can hear from these perpetrators while they're still alive. And to have Bruno Day acknowledge that their plan was to exterminate the Jews. And to say to say those things is actually really important — especially when you think today about Holocaust denial. And when you think about the fact that people are actually trying to erase these things and deny that they ever happened. Who can tell us better than perpetrators what their role was, and what was their mission, and why did they do this? And so I hope we can hear more from him.

CO: This man, Bruno Day, is 93. As you mentioned, he came in in a wheelchair. He was 17 when he was the camp guard. And, in fact, he’s being tried in juvenile court. Should we have any sympathy at all for Bruno Day?

BC: You know that's a hard one to answer. I think the short answer is no. I mean he's had the chance to live his entire life free. And so you know should we have sympathy for him having to answer questions in the courtroom now about what he did in the Holocaust? I don't think that that's very big of an ask, to be honest with you. My grandmother has spent her whole life without a mother. So you know my answer to that is no. I think that whatever pain and suffering he has to endure in a courtroom today is just nothing compared to what the survivors and that's not even talking about the victims of the camp who didn't even make it out.

CO: You mentioned the Holocaust denying, which is rearing its ugly head once again, and revisionism. But the people who can actually be put on trial and those who can testify are soon not to be with us. So without the witnesses — without the actual people who went through this — what happens to the story? Do you worry that that we can't — and won't — be telling this story when we don't have the people who can bear witness and tell us what happened?

BC: There's no question that an eyewitness testimony is so much more powerful and useful than anything else in these situations. And so we will face a time soon when there will be no more eyewitnesses. And I feel it's my obligation to make sure that my family's story can be preserved in the best way it possibly can. My grandmother made a promise to her fellow prisoners that if any of them should survive that they would tell the story of what happened there to make sure that no one could forget. And in engaging with these trials, I've realized that her story is actually my story — that I actually have a role to play. And that there is a direct continuation of what she went through and what I've been doing in learning about this and engaging with the process as a way for me to be able to tell her story in an authentic and true way.

CO: Mr. Cohen, thank you for telling us this story.

BC: Thank you for calling.

CO: Bye-bye.

BC: Bye-bye.

JM: Ben Cohen is the grandson of a survivor of the Stutthof concentration camp — which is in an area that's now in Poland. He's attending the trial of a man accused of being an accessory to thousands of murders during his time as a guard there. We reached Ben Cohen in Hamburg, Germany. And we’ve got more on the story on As It Happens website. That’s: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Sombre]

Anti-Thunberg protest

SOUNDCLIP

LEADER: Alberta workers deserve a just transition.

CROWD: Just transition!

LEADER: Let me here you say just transition.

CROWD: Just Transition!

LEADER: What do we want?

CROWD: Just Transition!

LEADER: When do we want it?

CROWD: Now!

JM: That's the sound of climate activists preparing for Greta Thunberg's arrival in Alberta earlier today — by calling for a "just transition." A transition, that is, away from reliance on the oil and gas industry that currently employs tens of thousands of Albertans — a situation that has made Ms. Thunberg's arrival in the province...complicated. Speaking to reporters earlier this week, Alberta's environment minister Jason Nixon said Greta Thunberg "doesn't understand" the province. And some counter-protesters who took to the streets today — many of them as part of a 'United We Roll' truck convoy — seemed to agree.

SOUNDCLIP

GLENN CARRITT: We have the strongest standards in the world in environment in the oil and gas. And we have reforestation. And our carbon footprint is the best in the world. These people need to get to China and India — where the pollution is a real problem. I'm not saying we don't need to watch it and take care of it. I'm absolutely saying that. But we’re the highest standards. What we need to do is Canadians to start educating the rest of the world in what we do. Let us be the leaders in climate change. This this is our way. Yeah, I can understand maybe the controversy. But this is our way to show that we really care about our oil and gas. And the thing that we have to remember is that these trucks should be out working. And typically, four years ago before the Trudeau government, these trucks were out working. So we're trying to show people that that these trucks need to get back out into the oil patch and get back working for Canada and for Alberta.

JOEL MULLAN: I would underline the human element behind this. We have one 150,000 Albertans directly employed in the industry. This industry provides schools and hospitals through provincial revenue. This is not a bad thing. The world needs oil and gas, and it should get it from an ethical producer. We have so many oil and gas industries are in despotic countries — where workers have very few rights, if any. Where environmental standards are non-existent. In some cases, where money is used to fund terrorism such as Iran. Venezuela, you have a country there where the own government runs over its citizens with armored personnel carriers. Alberta is not the problem. Alberta is the solution.

[Sound: Much honking]

JM: Glen Carritt and Joel Mullan are two of the organizers of the "United We Roll" truck convoy. That convoy made its way from Red Deer to Edmonton, Alberta today, in response to Greta Thunberg's visit to the provincial capital. In Edmonton, thousands gathered in support of Ms. Thunberg — and in support OF her calls for a transition away from an oil and gas economy.

[Music: Piano]

Elijah Cummings obit

Guest: Anthony Brown

JM: Dignity, and morality. When tributes began pouring in for U.S. Congressman Elijah Cummings yesterday, those words seem to come up most frequently. Mr. Cummings died at the age of 68, following longstanding health problems. Elijah Cummings was born and raised in Baltimore, Maryland, and he never stopped championing his city. He also never stopped fighting for civil rights, equality, and ethics in government over his 23 years as a Democratic congressman. And as the Chair of the House Oversight Committee, he became a key force in investigating the Trump Administration. Anthony Brown has known Elijah Cummings for the past 20 years. Mr. Brown is a member of the U.S. House of Representatives from Maryland. We reached him in Washington, D.C.

CO: Mr. Brown, first of all, I'm sorry for the loss of your friend.

ANTHONY BROWN: Well, thank you, Carol. I mean Elijah Cummings was a dear friend. He was a mentor to me and so many. Someone who I looked up to not only for how to conduct myself personally, but also professionally — so his passing away yesterday is a sorrowful and sad moment for us.

CO: So many comments, so many commendations of Elijah Cummings, so many people want to talk about them. One in particular, Adam Schiff, your colleague, called Elijah Cummings our moral and ethical North Star. What does he mean by that do you think?

AB: Elijah always asked us to do the right thing, even when it was the most difficult thing to do. To stay focused on the people we serve, whether it's the American people at large, or you know the constituents back home in your district. And fore Elijah, it was his beloved Baltimore City. But to stay focused. He used to always remind us that we're better than this. And so whether you are having your best day or your worst day, Elijah knew that if you focused on what was right, you would be better than you were on any given day.

CO: And that was his mantra, wasn't it? We are better than this. He would say it over and over again, each time something was just appalling that was occurring, he'd say we are better than this. And he means Americans, right?

AB: That's right. And he would also remind us that whatever we were doing was bigger than us. And so essentially saying that it's not our personal interest, you know? And it's a bigger interest. It's humanity. It's the people we serve. It's the ideals of democracy and freedom and accountability and transparency. And he showed that so aptly as the chairman of the government oversight reform committee.

CO: I'm going to get to that moment, but I just want to go back and a bit about his story, where he comes from. His parents were sharecroppers. How important were those roots in terms of shaping his identity and his views as a politician?

AB: I think they're very important. Elijah grew up in a home where he experienced you know firsthand limited means, and what it means to value what you have. Not just your sort of physical resources, but your family and the people around you. He grew up in Baltimore City — where he experienced firsthand racial discrimination. And also teachers who told them that he may not necessarily amount to what he wants to be in his life. And he just he set out starting from a place with very little to be somebody. And that was important to him to be somebody not just to serve himself, but to serve others. I mean during Black History Month this year, when I was asked you know who, who are some of your mentors? I said, Elijah Cummings. And he always told me, here says Anthony, you know understanding policy is important, and understanding sort of the protocol and the procedures in the institution are important. But the people are the most important. Understanding who they are, but also sharing with them who you are. And no one shared their story better than Elijah — the story of growing up in a home of sharecroppers, his faith, and his grounding being grounded in the church, overcoming hardship. And that's what enabled Elijah to connect to issues and to people. And why people look at him and said and believe rightfully that he was so sincere in what he pursued.

CO: He was very proud of his hometown of Baltimore. But we saw just not very long ago when Donald Trump called Baltimore a disgusting, rat and rodent infesting mess. How did that affect him? What was his feelings about that attack on Baltimore?

AB: You know that that hurt Elijah because Elijah loves Baltimore City. But the answer is not to insult. The answer is to empower. And to use the resources that are available to deliver to the city. He was hurt by that, but I think his decision not to react was the right one. Elijah didn't want it to be about him.

CO: As you mentioned, he was chair of the House Oversight Committee. And, of course, Congress is in the middle of a lot of oversight involving Mr. Trump and his presidency. Why was his job there so important to Elijah Cummings?

AB: Well, Elijah believed in the important role that government plays. Government isn't the end-all-be-all for us. He understood though the important role that he plays. But in order for America to have confidence in its government, oversight and accountability and where necessary reform is essential. And that's why he recognized the important role serving as chairman of government oversight reform. And even during his last days — as late as this week — I was on a conference call last week with the Democratic caucus that Elijah was participating in actively — if not leading. But even as late as this week showing up on the job. He didn't come to Washington, but he was fully engaged with his staff through his staff because he understood the threat that American democracy is under by this president.

CO: So what have you lost? What has your country lost with his passing? Because you are in the midst of a transition, a great deal of turmoil, a lot of things are going on, a lot of questions being asked. His place and United States’s place in the world, what have you lost. Not having Elijah Cummings right now?

AB: Well, let me first just answer that by saying personally I mean I and so many have just lost a dear friend. I mean someone who when you walk in the room and you see him, you kind of feel a lot more at ease and confident that today is going to be a good day because here's my good friend Elijah. But we have lost a public servant who is just an exemplar for moral righteousness, for a commitment — unwavering commitment — to the ideals that this nation is founded on, which includes equality and opportunity. So that's who we lost. Every Wednesday, I'm a member of the Congressional Black Caucus, and we come together every Wednesday for lunch. For me, as a new member of Congress, it's almost like a weekly history lesson. And we're going to miss him every day. But those Wednesday lunches just won't be the same.

CO: Congressman Brown, I really appreciate you talking to us. Thank you.

AB: Thank you, Carol.

CO: Bye-bye.

JM: Anthony Brown is Congressman for the 4th District of Maryland, and a colleague and friend of the late Representative Elijah Cummings. Mr. Cummings died yesterday, at the age of 68.

[Music: Ambient]

Fastest ant

Guest: Harald Wolf

JM: If I tell you to think of a fast animal — a really fast one — I'm guessing the vast majority of you will think of a cheetah. One person in our office here thought of an ostrich. But no matter how long I give you, I'm pretty sure almost no one would say "ant". Well, introducing the Saharan silver ant — the fastest ants known to science. But science didn't know how, exactly, they achieve their speed. German researchers set out to find out how. The results of their research were published this week in the journal Experimental Biology. Harald Wolf is the senior author. We reached him in Ulm, Germany.

CO: Professor Wolf, just how fast are these little creatures?

HARALD WOLF: Eighty-five centimeters per second.

CO: Okay, can you give us a sense how does that compare to other animals?

HW: That depends on how you measure speed. I mean typically as a human you would okay, metres per second, that's a good speed measure. Yes, all right. But that measure puts small animals at a disadvantage. Until biologists, in particular, if they are working on small animals like ants, they prefer a body length per second. If you take that as a measure, they are pretty fast. I mean, they are in a way faster than humans and even horses. I mean, they achieve something above 100 body lengths per second.

CO: How did you measure their speed?

HW: We have a high-speed video that has a frame rate of 1,000 or even 4,000 frames a second. And then, in the desert, we identify a nest, we establish a feeding site, cookie crumbs let’s say ten metres’ distance from the nest. And then the ants will start shuttling back and forth, and yeah.

CO: Where did you find the ants? Where do they live?

HW: They live in the sand dunes of the Sahara — all over North Africa really.

CO: But you brought some of them back to Germany to watch them, did you?

HW: Oh, yes. True, yeah. I mean you record those high running speeds, of course, in their normal habitat around noon in the summer. So when it's really hot, and these are hydrothermic animals — meaning they are dependent in their body temperature on the surrounding temperature are different from ourselves. So they'll run the faster the warmer it is up to a limit.

CO: Did you bring them home in part because [breaking into laughter] because it was very hot work to be trying to crawl around the desert looking at ants?

HW: Yep, yeah, in a way, if you like. I mean for us as humans, in particular, being Middle Europeans not accustomed to desert heat, yes, of course, that may be a small argument. But mainly it was really to have time to examine the things we wanted to examine in detail, like the morphology and stuff like that.

CO: Do you think the fact that it is so hot, and you were looking at them midday, do you think that the fact that there's little feet… I mean was it an incentive that the sand is so hot that they're moving so quickly?

HW: Yeah, that's, in fact, an aspect that's important. I mean you'd have to know something about the ecology of these animals to understand. First of all, they are called silver ants because different from all the other desert ants in that group, they indeed have a silvery hair coat that reflects the sunlight. And that helps them to keep relatively cool and reflect the sun. And the other thing is well you may wonder why these animals are out in the midday heat anyway? But this is their feeding ecology. So they are scavengers, and they feed on the dead arthropods — dead insects like spiders. And, of course, during the hottest hours of the day, there will be most dead insect.

CO: Okay, because creatures and that we know — especially humans who run quickly — have a great big long legs that can give them huge stride. So do these ants have the same thing?

HW: Yes, all the desert ants do have long legs — including of the silver ant. Although, and that was our initial surprise, and made us wonder how it works, they have relatively short legs than their cousins living in salt pans. And the salt pan ants, they have longer legs, but they live on dirty surfaces. So they walk on the clay — on the dry, hard clay ground — of the salt pan. And so they need not care about the load they put on the ground with their feet. And that is probably the reason for the silver ant to have such high stride frequencies that help them to achieve the high speed. Because that involves very brief contact times with a sand substrate. And that we assume — hypothesizing not sure right now — that keeps them from sinking into the sand with their feet.

CO: Uh-huh, and so and so that they're working with obviously six legs, and so they're just sort of cantering? How would you describe the way they run?

HW: Yeah, they're galloping you would say. I mean galloping as well a cantering, that's a term that that was defined for quadrupeds like horses, so it's difficult to apply really to six-legged animal. Still, I think galloping is the best term because what they do is they jump from one tripod — so they use three of their six lengths at one point in time, and then they change to the other set of three. And those three are front and hind leg on one side of the body and the middle of leg on the other. So they have a very sturdy stance, and then they take off the ground, and then they land on the other three. And that is what I would like to call it galloping. They are extending their stride length by jumping — by going through the air without any light on the ground.

CO: Wow!

HW: And that combination is what makes them so fast because they have an extremely extraordinarily high stride frequency — more than 40 miles per second. Forty-seven I think was the highest number we observed. Plus, they extend their stride length although they have relatively short leg by galloping, by jumping from one stride to the next.

CO: All right. Professor Wolf, It’s really interesting. I appreciate you talking to us. Thank you.

HW: Oh, so welcome.

CO: Yes. Goodnight.

HW: Goodnight.

JM: Harald Wolf is the director of the Institute of Neurobiology at Ulm University in Ulm, Germany. To see pictures of the ants he studied, visit our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Ambient]

Part two: NDP: Tracey Ramsey, Nobel controversy

NDP: Tracey Ramsey

Guest: Tracy Ramsey

JM: Jagmeet Singh could soon find himself responsible for some very big decisions. The NDP leader is riding a last-minute surge — which the pollsters say is going to make it hard for the Liberals or the Conservatives to govern on their own. That could mean Mr. Singh will wake up on Tuesday morning holding the balance of power. We've tried to arrange a sit-down interview with Jagmeet Singh, as we have with all the major party leaders. Mr. Singh wasn't available. But the Ontario candidate Tracey Ramsey has agreed to take our call. We reached Ms. Ramsey in Essex, Ontario near Windsor.

CO: Ms. Ramsey, as we look at a possible minority situation after the election on Monday, the question becomes why should Canadians trust the NDP with possibly the balance of power?

TRACEY RAMSEY: Well, I think we've shown Canadians over this election what we represent. And they've responded so positively both to our leader, Jagmeet Singh and to our local campaigns. They see in our party are things that they need in their everyday life. You know Canadians are really struggling from coast to coast to coast. And what they see in us is a party that represents you know a way to make their lives better — whether that's affordable housing or pharmacare or acting urgently on the climate crisis. People are really relating to our platform that we've put forward this year, as well as our local candidates. And it's been quite exciting.

CO: What you've described are the broad strokes, and we've been hearing that. But I guess now as it gets possible that you could have influence — some power — in the next government. More specific questions come about, don't they? And we were just hearing Andrew Scheer say that the first thing he would do if he were prime minister would be to scrap the carbon tax. If that's a minority government and the NDP could influence a vote in that, how would you vote? How would the NDP vote if Mr. Scheer were to say he would try to pass some legislation of that nature?

TR: Well, I think, first of all, we don't know what we're going to end up with on October 21st. I think there are a lot of folks across the country that are trying to interpret the polls to see where we will head. We've laid out our priorities regardless of the outcome on October 21st. We've laid out our kind of top six priorities for Canadians. And those are exactly the things we will fight for. You know it's unknown whether or not we'll end up with a party even with the most seats in the house at this point because the race appears so close. So you know we're excited about what we offer to Canadians, and we'll certainly be prepared to vote when new legislation starts to move through the new House.

CO: Okay, so this is what exactly I'm saying is that now we're getting into some specifics because of them. Canadians need to have these answers before Monday, before they vote.

TR: Absolutely.

CO: And we heard Jagmeet Singh, he wouldn't say whether the NDP would defeat the Conservatives if it came to that. Because if you did vote against it, you could trigger the end of that Conservative government if it was there a minority if you were to vote against the carbon tax. And so we need to know if that's a possibility?

TR: Well, to be honest, I think there would be votes before that. There would have to be the formation of parliament. There would have to be budget bills that are passed. There would have to be a speaker that goes through the House. There are a lot of steps before we get to the introduction of legislation in the next parliament. So you know I think it's legitimate to say that you know until we see the outcome of October 21^st, which we're feeling very hopeful about in the NDP, you know it's really premature to talk about pieces of legislation that would be put through by any party at this point.

CO: Okay, I am going to move on in a moment. But just on this because Jagmeet Singh, he has refused to say. And so we wonder why is that the case? And because Canadians one thing that's on their minds is whether or not whether they vote for is going to lead to them having to go back to the polls in six months from now. And so I would imagine a lot they want to avoid that. So they want to know what you might trigger as a non-confidence vote?

TR: Well, again, you know we've been very clear — and Jagmeet Singh has been clear — that we wouldn't prop up a Conservative government. So if we are looking at the 21st — whatever the outcome — we said that our priorities are pharmacare, climate change, affordable housing, taxing the most wealthy and corporations in our in our country in a way that would garner a lot of revenue, eliminating student debt. These are our priorities. So you know we've laid these out. We've been clear about them throughout the election. And that doesn't change regardless of the outcome on the 21st. I know there are a lot of people trying to speculate and trying to interpret what might happen. But until we actually get those results back, we won't know what we're facing. And so it's premature, I think, to try to determine what that outcome will be. We're hopeful that Canadians will choose the NDP from coast to coast to coast. And we'll return a strong group of MPs to parliament.

CO: Well, you can't blame them for wanting to figure this out because a lot is at stake. And so it would seem that you're willing to leave the carbon tax on the table. That's not a priority.

TR: Well, we've been clear that we don't identify with the priorities of the Conservatives. You've heard our leader Jagmeet Singh saying that we wouldn't prop up a Conservative government.

CO: Okay, that's not the same answer. The question is that you would leave the carbon tax on the table.

TR: It's presumptive of Andrew Scheer to say that you know he's going to form government and he's going to put this forward.

CO: I'm not talking about him. I’m talking about you. So you would leave the carbon tax on the table. That's not a priority.

TR: So that is not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying to you is that until we see the outcome of October 21^st, until we find out who will be governing our country, we are still in this race for Jagmeet Singh to be the prime minister of Canada, and for us to send as many MPs as we can back to Ottawa.

CO: Is the Trans Mountain pipeline negotiable as well?

TR: I think again, like Jagmeet Singh has been very clear about that, our party position has been clear, and we stand by that.

CO: And the clarity would be what? What was the position of the Trans Mountain pipeline that Canada owns — Canadians bought through the Liberal government — what would Jagmeet Singh do with that?

TR: Well, certainly we have to look at what is involved in potentially selling this. What are the commitments that they made to this? The Liberals have been very unclear. They went out and bought this pipeline, and put all Canadian taxpayer money into purchasing the 65-year-old leaky pipeline without providing us any of those details. So you know we really don't know what exactly the Liberals have agreed to here. What we've been clear of is our opposition of the pipeline.

CO: Okay. So would the NDP bring down a Liberal minority in order to block the Trans Mountain Pipeline?

TR: Again, we need to see the outcome on October 21st. And we are not going to predict that. We have hope that Canadians will be electing very strong New Democrats across the country. And when we get to that position on the end of the Election Day on October 21st, then we will look at what we're facing in Canada. And certainly, NDP priorities and our election commitments have been very clear. We've been very transparent with Canadians. And those are the things that we're going to push for in Canada.

CO: Okay. So you may or may not scrap the carbon tax. You may or may not support the pipeline given were you waiting to see what is presented and how they proceed, is that right?

TR: Well, so again, you know it this is a presumption that those parties are going to be in a position to put that legislation forward. And quite honestly that's not what we're facing here. We are looking at an election where the NDP has been rising. We've had a surge. We're doing incredibly well. And Canadians are identifying with the policies that we're putting forward because they will make a positive impact in their life. So my question to the other parties is will they support pharmacare if the NDP brings it forward? Will they support affordable housing? Will they support action on climate change that's meaningful to Canadians?

CO: You, of course, you're in Windsor — very strong labour area. There's been a lot of support for the NDP over the years, traditionally coming from labour. Can you appreciate that Alberta workers are looking at some of the things that you represent would be job killers for them? Pipelines, they produce jobs, construction jobs. The oil sands, they produce jobs. What do you say to those people who regard the policies the NDP are putting forward are job killers for people, particularly in Western Canada?

TR: What I say to them is the instability that they've been facing, and the cycle that they've been facing is not unlike autoworkers in southwestern Ontario. There's incredible instability in terms of working people having good stable jobs. I know that the climate plan that we're looking at is very bold, but it does not lead working people behind. It is a plan for working people for the future for the green economy that will actually create the jobs of the future and reduce that instability that they've been experiencing.

CO: Okay. But they don't have jobs now, and they don't have jobs now because they cannot get their product to tidewater because there's no pipeline. And that is what the Liberals that was the bargain they made — Faustian as it might have been — that's the bargain they made. Would you support that pipeline that would, for the time being, while you're making this transition, allow for people in Alberta to have those jobs?

TR: So I would say that the decision of the Liberals has not provided them any security either. There is no security in what the Liberals are offering because as you said, they're suffering today.

CO: Because they need a pipeline in order to get their product to market. Let’s leave the Liberals aside here for a moment. Would you support that pipeline in order to have — while you're making this transition to a green economy — have an opportunity for workers in Alberta to be employed in the oil sands and in the construction of pipelines?

TR: So what we've been clear on in our climate a vision for Canada is that we do need to transition away. And that means a just transition for working people. So what they need now are opportunities to retrain so they can get themselves back to work in a job that will be a job that will not be stuck in this cycle of boom and bust in the experience out there ongoing…

[crosstalk]

CO: Woah, woah, what if they can't pay their mortgage now? What do they do? They haven't got a job now. What do you say to them? You're the party that represents labour, you represent unions. Answer these people?

TR: So I've been laid off. I'm an auto worker. And I lost my job for three years after having worked there for 12 years. I know exactly how they feel I know what that feels like in a time when it doesn't look like your sector is going to have any opportunity in the future. I was fortunate to be able to go and retrain. I'm saying that in retraining, being able to go back to school, to go into a different sector where there's stability is a lifeline for people right now who are struggling. And as a working person who knows exactly how that feels, I know that people in Alberta are looking for a stable future. And we know that this economy and what they've been in this boom and bust has not been providing them with stability. We want them to have a job in perhaps a trade. You know, maybe going back into the health care field. Maybe transitioning into something that they've wanted to do previously, but they need that opportunity to be able to access that type of education so they can provide themselves and their family with a job that won't be in this boom and bust cycle, and that they won't feel that deep insecurity and instability about.

CO: All right. Miss Ramsey I know these are the final days of a very close, very interesting campaign. So I thank you for making the time for us.

TR: Thank you so much.

JM: Tracey Ramsey is an NDP candidate. We reached her in Essex, Ontario. And you can find more on that story by going to: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Ambient]

LR: TPL speaker dispute

JM: Vickery Bowles made her message clear on last night's program. Quote, "We have an obligation to protect free speech." Unquote. Ms. Bowles is Toronto's City Librarian. This week, the Toronto Public Library is defending its decision to rent out space for an event featuring Meghan Murphy — a Vancouver-based writer known for her opposition to legislation protecting transgender rights. Despite pushback from critics, Vickery Bowles is standing firm. And after our interview, many of you wrote to say you stand with her. Joanna Miazga wrote: "I applaud the Toronto Public library for standing up for the principle behind the practice of free speech. It is difficult to honour this principle when the message does not align with our convictions. Increasingly, public libraries are becoming the institution who help to protect freedoms of speech and what we can read." Anne Magusin wrote: "The fact people have horrible ideas does not justify denying them the right to speak ... That sort of an approach is dangerous for society. If we let people with horrible ideas speak, we can, at best, help them change their minds — and, at worst, figure out how to protect ourselves against them." Others disagreed. On Facebook, Jason Ramsay wrote: "This is not about protecting free speech. It's about protecting people. The free speech argument is a red herring. [The librarian] fails to see the bigger picture." And finally, Monica Finn asked: "I wonder how many of the people defending 'free speech' have been called a slur from a passing car. Or had to vote on whether they should be allowed to have rights others have. 'Debates' on the existence of other people are dehumanizing and help normalize the violence against people who are already vulnerable." Thank you to everyone who wrote. You can find us on Twitter and Facebook, both: @cbcasithappens. Our email is: aih@cbc.ca. And you can always call Talkback at 416-205-5687.

[Music: World music]

Nobel controversy

Guest: Aleksandar Hemon

JM: Earlier this month, the Swedish Academy awarded this year's Nobel Prize for Literature to the Austrian novelist and playwright, Peter Handke. And now, the academy is being forced to defend that decision. Mr. Handke is an accomplished writer. But he's also a controversial figure who spoke at the funeral of Slobodan Milosevic in 2006 — after the Serb leader died at The Hague while awaiting trial for war crimes. Aleksandar Hemon is a Bosnian-American novelist who teaches at Princeton University. He wrote about the decision to award Mr. Handke the Nobel Prize in the New York Times. We reached Mr. Hemon in Princeton, New Jersey.

CO: Mr. Hemon, what message do you think the Swedish Academy has sent by giving the Nobel Prize in Literature to Peter Handke?

ALEKSANDAR HEMON: Peter Handke has denied what happened in Bosnia, and what was done by Slobodan Milosevic and his troops. And he has done it in such a way that often it was not an outright denial, but it was the preferred method as it were was to fudge the issue and to claim that it was everyone's fault. nd that the Serbs and Milosevic were maligned. And that somehow they needed his help in getting the truth across. By giving him the Nobel Prize, they disrespected the victims of genocide that was orchestrated by Milosevic. And also showed that they don't really care, that it's all just a matter of words for them.

CO: The BBC has reported that Mr. Handke has in the past he has accused Bosnian Muslims of staging attacks against themselves, of killing their own people to make it look as though the Serbs were doing, and he has at one point — though he says it was a slip of the tongue — he said that the Serbs had faced the same fate as the Jews during the Holocaust. What problems do you have with someone who makes these remarks winning the Nobel Prize for Literature?

AH: Giving him the Nobel Prize for Literature implies a concept of literature where the writers activities in the real world are not really of relevance. And the politics is not politics unless I guess. It’s outright politics you know party affiliations or direct action and actual political events. I really don't know. But to claim that his politics makes no difference or in fact they didn't really have particular politics that they need to address it is just misrepresenting not only what he has said, but also the way that literature operates in the world, the way it means to the people, and what it what it means. I read news from the lands of former Yugoslavia. I mean, various Serbian fascists and nationalists they're ecstatic because it's a validation of their project because if Handke was their you know poster boy, they probably didn't read his book because they’re too difficult. But he was one of the few major cultural figures who supported and treated them as they wanted to be treated and talked about. And now they're totally ecstatic. It's a validation.

CO: He gave a eulogy for Slobodan Milosevic at his funeral. And Milosevic was declared within the war crimes trials to have been the — or a principal — architect in the genocide in Srebrenica and in Bosnia. He also was ousted by his own people in the year 2000. What did Mr. Handke say? Why was he supportive of Mr. Milosevic?

AH: Well, he did not say at any point that he was supporting his political project. But that’s again fudging that. So to go to a funeral of Slobodan Milosevic, there are 20,000 people who are evidently supportive of Mr. Milosevic's project. It’s just either extremely, extremely stupid — which does not really match the intellectual profile of Mr. Handke — or just cynical. To pretend that giving the eulogy at Milosevic's funeral is not an endorsement of Milosevic's project is just cynical. It's just dishonest to the maximum.

CO: The Swedish Academy stands by its decision, and a Swedish newspaper wrote that Peter Handke has made provocative statements in the past. But they said they found, quote, nothing in what he has written that involves attacks on civil society or respect for the equal values of all people.

AH: Well, you know I suspect that he wrote that speech that he gave at Milosevic's funeral. That in my book — and everyone's book — it’s divisive. Because he did not go to the funerals of Bosnian leaders or Bosnian people or the mass-defectors of the victims of the massacre in Srebrenica.

CO: We heard in Austria, the president celebrated the win. We said that Mr. Handke, his quiet and captivating voice, has been drawing for decades world's, places, and characters that could not be more fascinating. We owe him a great debt of thanks. Do you think that there are a lot of people who actually support what Mr. Handke has said about the nature of the war in Bosnia?

AH: I think that you know the people have made up their mind about what happened in Bosnia well before Handke. And so he was never an authority about what happened. And so had he not received the Nobel Prize, he’d be just one of the obscure voices because the Internet in the world is full of deniers, and they connect across countries. I guess Mr. Handke’s statements would come under the freedom of speech. So I would not have done anything to his books other than not read them. But to give him a Nobel Prize, it just rewards in some ways that kind of engagement, the kind of immorality and public fear that comes from the writer. And therefore, it undermines the concept of literature that at least seemingly the Nobel Prize Committee or the Swedish Academy has supported before. To me, that is just unconscionable. The notion that literature is always making people better is common around the world. I have not thought about that since the war in Bosnia. And so it evidently does not make writers any better.

CO: But does it validate the viewpoint that the war in Bosnia was not as it was reported?

AH: Well, not everywhere, it does, certainly among the nationalists and fascists in Serbia and their supporters across the board. Milosevic's a hero among white supremacists in the world because he showed a way to them how to treat and deal with the Muslims and people like that. And Norway made a specific reference to the war in Bosnia and the Christchurch shooter too. And so to endorse handke — and by proxy to endorse Milosevic's project — at this particular political moment it's just about pretending that none of that really matters is just sickening.

CO: Mr. Hemon, we will leave it there. I appreciate you speaking with us. Thank you.

AH: Thank you, Carol.

CO: Bye-bye.

AH: Bye.

JM: That was Bosnian-American novelist Aleksandar Hemon in Princeton, New Jersey.

[Music: Ambient]

Part three: Kandahar doc, Cree hospital funding

Kandahar doc

Guests: Aisha Jamal, Abdul Jamal

JM: Abdul Jamal has spent three decades in Canada. But Afghanistan will always be a major part of his life. That sense of connection that led Abdul to take his wife and kids on a family trip — the central journey in a new film by his daughter Aisha, which airs this Sunday on CBC's Documentary Channel.

SOUNDCLIP

AISHA JAMAL: My father's taking the family to Kandahar. I may not look like it here, but I'm a little worried about how everyone's going to react.

SPEAKER: There's more stuff here than I thought there’d be.

AJ: Really?

SPEAKER: Yeah.

AJ: What did you think was going to be here?

SPEAKER: I though it would just be flat and everything.

AJ: After two hours in the car, we're excited to get there. But wait, we are still in Canada.

[Sound: Crickets]

AJ: This is Kandahar, Saskatchewan. Population 15. That's 15.

JM: That's from a new documentary called "A Kandahar Away". And, as you heard, the Kandahar in question is not the one in Afghanistan. It's a small hamlet, near Wynyard, Saskatchewan, two hours' drive north of Regina. It's not the first time Abdul has visited the community. And it's not the only surprise in store. As we, and his family, come to learn, their past and future are intertwined in Kandahar — where Abdul has invested their inheritance in eight plots of land. Aisha Jamal is the director of "A Kandahar Away." She and her father Abdul joined Carol in the As It Happens studio.

CO: Aisha and Abdul, welcome to the As It Happens studio.

ABDUL: Thank you.

AISHA: Thank you.

CO: And congratulations on this film.

AISHA: Thank you so much.

CO: I just I’ll start with you, Aisha. Because I don't know how difficult it must be to actually decide you're going to document some aspect of your family in a very, very probing way. How much trepidation did you approach this with?

AISHA: You know a lot but I think I didn't think through all the elements before I started. So throughout the filming there were moments where I was like Oh my God is my family going to implode? Are we all going to need therapy? How is it all going to go? So I think that I didn't know what I was getting into fully — which I think is a blessing. We did make it through. And I'm glad that we all still talk to each other. But yes, it was tough at times.

CO: Of course, the clip we played is in Kandahar, Saskatchewan, and it bears the same name as, Abdul, your home city — Kandahar, Afghanistan.

ABDUL: That’s right.

CO: And so why don’t we start there? I would like to know what your memories are of that Kandahar?

ABDUL: Well, that Kandahar, the memory is beautiful. And it just stay and resonate with me for the end of my life. And it is just a city which was born there, educated there, and altogether, the city has a very rich culture. And I just see my city like a production of that culture. So why not? It is a rich historical country. And that was a crossroad for all the big power in history from Alexander to the present days.

CO: And yet, we know so many people like yourself had to leave because of war. What and when did you depart Afghanistan?

ABDUL: Almost 30 years ago. The situation was unbearable, and the things was just collapsing.

CO: Can you describe it was the Soviet wars?

ABDUL: That was the Soviet invasion in Afghanistan, exactly. And after that — especially when the regime changed from the first president of Afghanistan Daoud, an the next US socialist or communist when you took over — and that was the very unfortunate. And then started from that day until nowadays. We never haded a good day.

CO: One war after another, one cause of the people fighting proxy wars, people fighting civil wars, people destroying that country. So where did your family go in they had to leave Kandahar?

ABDUL: Well, living in Kandahar was also tough for everybody. But again, the conditions were so bad and so rough that they want just to save their lives. And then we started to move, and we went into Pakistan. And we started to be there and stationed there for a while. Part of the family is still there in Pakistan. And then I finded out my way up to here — to this country. Now, for the last 30 years, we've been here.

CO: And, Aisha, you were actually born in Kandahar, right?

AISHA: Yes, I was.

CO: Any memories of that one?

AISHA: I do, but I mean I was young when I came here. So I feel like the majority of me is shaped my Canadian memories. But I do have memories of family, of course. And like we went back in 2006, and that really triggered a lot of memories as well.

CO: Wow! 2006 , A very, very different Kandahar you must have seen then. That's when I was there. When did you first learn about the other Kandahar in Saskatchewan?

AISHA: You know what? Funny enough, not through my dad, but through my brother. My brother mentioned in passing, he's like well, you know Dad's leaving us this land in Kandahar, Saskatchewan. I was like whoa, rewind, what did you just say? So I found out through my brother not my dad, and that was maybe about seven years ago.

CO: Okay, this is the crux of the story here. Abdul, how did you come to own land in Kandahar, Saskatchewan? Give us the whole story here?

ABDUL: Well, the whole story is this. I love the city, and I love the name. I was working in Vancouver in a hotel. And then this was one morning, a gentleman was sitting across from me in the lobby, and he was telling me where you come from? And I said from Afghanistan. And he's where about in Afghanistan? From Kandahar. And he said you know what? I've been to Kandahar. But you're the first Afghan to meet you. And now was surprised. And I said that man, that Kandahar is all Afghans. How do you say that I'm the first to meet him? And he said no, no, no, there is another Kandahar in Canada. It's right in the middle of the country in Saskatchewan, on Highway 16. And I was surprised. And I thank him for the information. I went to the library. I opened the atlas. So I'll find out Kandahar the name. And that was the beginning.

CO: All right. But then you actually went to Kandahar, Saskatchewan.

ABDUL: Absolutely. How can I say that, Carol? I'm a person there once I want to do something I just make a way to do it. So I wanted to go in to see this place. I made a plan, took the flight to Saskatoon, rented a car, and I had a map, and I drove all the way there. And it was beautiful. Every time when I go to Kandahar, Saskatchewan, I love it more than ever.

CO: Okay. So you loved it, you saw it, then you bought it. Okay, so tell us how did you come to buy these plots of land in Kandahar?

ABDUL: Really, I want to have a piece of this Kandahar. And I was dreaming up I can do something about this place too to make it bigger, and make it world-renowned. And that is a big project. And when I went there, it was impossible to do that thing. So I said the best thing for me is to have a piece of land and make myself a real, real with two feet in Canada in real Canadian. So I just bought the land, and I just distribute it to my kids. Did they know you had bought land for them in Kandahar, Saskatchewan?

ABDUL: Probably not. In the first few years, yes, that's right. But after that, yes, they know I talked to them.

CO: Okay. So, Aisha, you learned this that your dad bought land in Kandahar Saskatchewan. What did you and your siblings say about that?

AISHA: I think that the conversation always started with isn't it absurd [laughing] that there is a Kandahar, and that we own land there. And I think for a long time, they weren't that interested in visiting or finding more out about it. And I think when I started sort of digging and started suggesting that we get together and we all go, and that I'm thinking of making a film, that's really when everybody started to come on board and was okay, you know what? I actually we'd like to know what this Kandahar looks like.

CO: So you arrive in this place that you discovered, Abdul, and declared it beautiful when you had gone there for the first time. And people actually have to watch this film. You're getting a lot of the story here, but it's just priceless all of these moments to see the faces of your siblings when they arrive at their plot of land in the middle of well kind of nowhere from their point of view. Describe some of the reactions?

AISHA: [laughing] I think that some of them were underwhelmed, and kept saying this is it? I think my brother Nasser tried to make the best of it, and started to you know throw around ideas of what we could possibly do. But I think overall, most of my siblings were kind of amazed that my father would invest in a place that is so far from where we live in a tiny hamlet that's on its way to being a ghost town.

CO: But you met the people there, you met the mayor — who is the every guy. And at one point, you have a meeting, and you say well can you take this discussion to the town of Kandahar. [breaking into laughter] And they said well, this is the town of Kandahar. This is everybody. And that was a meeting when you were discussing your idea, Abdul, to actually use this land to create a war memorial. Can you describe where does that idea come from?

ABDUL: Well, the idea come from, for me personally, life is very precious. And every life lost is, for me, important — especially when Canada is my country now for me and for my kids. And all those lives were lost, it is important for me. Doesn't matter what in which way because they were Canadian, and I’m Canadian too.

CO: What do you want to commemorate with that war memorial?

ABDUL: The connection between the two countries. Also, to be forever, and also from this one if you can have a cultural understanding, a cultural relationship that would be great.

CO: And you know that we lost many lives, Canadian soldiers died in Kandahar, they died in other parts of Afghanistan. So there are a number of memorials in Canada that commemorate those losses. And also not just people who died, people who came back wounded and have PTSD.

ABDUL: That's right. Well, look at it this way, before Aisha think of making this movie, I went to Kingston with my wife, and just to that memorial. And I was very, very upset. It affect me quite a bit the last of those people. And I remembered them as my family members.

CO: Aisha, as your sister in particular, but all of you and your discussions point out, yes, there were many Canadians who died in Kandahar and during that war. There have been hundreds and hundreds of thousands of Afghans who have died or been exiled because all those wars. Many of them were foreign adventures. Your sister calls it an invasion. How did they react when they learned about this idea of a war memorial?

AISHA: To be honest, overall, they were not interested in it. And they weren't very supportive of it. I think this debate in my family is between do we call it an invasion or do we call it an intervention? And for my father, you know he makes the case that he sees it as an intervention, and he's thinking about the lives that have been lost. And I think for us, we cannot see it as apolitical. And when I say us, I mean us siblings. So there is this discussion that we can't really take that away from it. And also, think about our family that's still in Afghanistan, and has to live under a sort of very unsafe conditions — including the idea of American bombings, and Canadian bombings, and everything they've been through — which they didn't ask for. So I think that's utterly frustrating to think about this invasion, and think about the fact that Afghanistan is still a very unsafe place.

CO: And, Abdul, your kids made that really clear to you. Not that they didn't like the idea, they actually rejected the idea that you should commemorate the deaths of those soldiers, those Canadians. How did you feel about that?

ABDUL: Well, I respect their ideas. It's belongs to them. But my thinking we are a Canadian family, and their people were part of the Canadian family. And we have to respect them.

CO: When you say family, and Canadian family, and Afghan family, what this documentary is really about is family, isn't it? It's about family and roots and where you come from. And so much about your family and who you are and who they are comes out. How emotional was it for you this journey that your daughter took you on in this film?

ABDUL: Very much. And I was very happy when it happened. I thank Aisha for this encourage she took it.

CO: But your kids are trying to figure you out [breaking into laughter]. They're trying to understand you. At one point, it's Nasser who says it's sad that he you it's sad he — you — needs to own this land to feel like he is back home. He must never feel like he's at home here. Is that true?

ABDUL: Probably not in my feeling, no. I feel it very much at home here. But that was a part of my body, and that was a part of my soul. I just grew up there, but still it's okay. It's dear to me that Kandahar. But Canada is my home. I love it hear too.

CO: Aisha, you must have been aware how many layers you were peeling away. And this is what must play out with so many families who not just the immigrants, but people who actually are forced to leave their country, who don't want to, and have to flee because of violence. And so what do you think you learned about your family and your dad?

AISHA: Aisha, I think that I learned to sort of have more empathy from my father. I think initially I saw this act really as misguided or really thinking you know how can my father even suggest something like a monument? But I think I've really started to understand that this land is important to my dad based on a name. And based on the fact that it really reminds him a lot of his memories and his life in Afghanistan. And in a way, he is eternally in exile. So I think I started to see it in a lot more of you know with a lot more sympathy and a lot more kindness. But I mean I think it's been nice to show the film and also hear how people relate. I've been collecting dad's stories, so I'm sure everyone's going to think about their own father and how they relate to him.

CO: Well, I think it's a lovely film. And it does really connect a lot of people with such a larger canvas — including both Kandahar's. Abdul and Aisha, thank you both.

ABDU: You’re welcome.

AISHA: Thank you for having us.

JM: Aisha Jamal is the director of "A Kandahar Away," which features her father, Abdul Jamal. They were in the As It Happens studio. And the film airs this Sunday at 9 PM on CBC's Documentary Channel, 9:30 PM in Newfoundland.

[Music: Sombre]

Meghan Markle

JM: Meghan Markle says she is not okay. The Duchess of Sussex has had to deal with intense — often racist — scrutiny by the UK press. She and her husband, Prince Harry, have even taken legal action against the Daily Mail, saying the tabloid has "vilified" the first black woman in the royal family. And considering what happened to Prince Harry's mother, Diana, it's understandable that the couple would be especially concerned. In a newly released clip from the forthcoming ITV documentary, "Harry and Meghan: An African Journey", the Duchess opens up about just how draining the attention is. Here she is speaking with reporter and friend Tom Bradby.

SOUNDCLIP

TOM BRADBY: He's obviously very concerned about protecting you, and protecting you from what he felt his mother went through. It’s obviously an area one has to tiptoe into very gently. But I don't know what the impact on your physical and mental health of all the pressure that you clearly feel under.

MEGHAN MARKLE: I would say, look, any woman — especially when they're pregnant — you're really vulnerable. And so that was made fairly challenging. And then when you have a newborn, you know?

TB: Mmm-hmm. It's a long time ago, but I remember.

MM: Yeah, you know. And especially as a woman, it's really it's a lot. So you add this on top of just trying to be a new mom, or trying to be a newlywed, yeah, well I guess, and also thank you for asking. Because not many people have asked if I’m okay. But it's a very real thing to me going through behind the scenes.

TB And the answer is would it be fair to say not really okay? Has it really been a struggle?

MM: Yes.

JM: That was the Duchess of Sussex, Meghan Markle, speaking with ITV reporter Tom Bradby, in the forthcoming documentary "Harry and Meghan: An African Journey."

[Music: Sombre]

Cree hospital funding

Guest: Bella Petawabano

JM: Until now, residents of Chisasibi had a choice: their homes, or their health. Far too often, they've had to travel south from the James Bay community to get the health care they need. But that's about to change — with the announcement of a new, 52-bed regional health centre that will serve 20,000 Cree in the area. Bella Petawabano is the chair of the Cree Board of Health and Social Services of James Bay. We reached her in Montreal.

CO: Ms. Petawabano, how are you feeling about this announcement that you're going to get a hospital?

BELLA PETAWABANO: Well, I still can't believe it that it's finally happening. We have been waiting for years. So I'm just so happy.

CO: But what is it you finally did? What argument did you finally give that persuaded them to give you the service?

BP: They had approved a new hospital some time ago, but the size was not appropriate we thought. So we decided to ask for a bigger hospital. Because the hospital that's in Chisasibi right now — which is a regional hospital — it's not very big. And this one that we're going to get — the new regional health centre — it's going to be seven times the size of that little hospital that's been there for 40 years.

CO: Wow! And so what will this health centre be able to offer people in the community, not just Chisasibi, but the area around it?

BP: Well, we will have two operating rooms — something that we don't have right now. We don't even do minor surgery in that little hospital that we have presently. So the two operating rooms will mean that we'll be able to offer acute care services. And it's also going to have our laboratory facilities and a new imaging technologies. Of course, that's going to expand and enhance our diagnosis capacity. And for Chisasibi, as well it's for people that are along the coast. Because we have nine communities overall in the Cree territory. So it's going to mean, of course, expanded hemodialysis. And we're going to also be able to bring cancer care services — including chemotherapy — to the region. So that's gonna be good for everyone. Of course, it's going to incorporate the facilities to support traditional care. So you know so these services will mean that we'll be able to keep our people at home, and reduce the need for medical travel for our patients.

CO: When you say be able to keep people at home, what have they been doing? What have people in those nine communities what have they been doing up to now when they needed this kind of health care?

BP: Well, what happens is that they have to travel either to Montreal or to Val-d’Or to receive the treatment that they need. So sometimes it means many weeks and many months staying in hotels. And it's quite a distance to cover — especially when you are not well. So the service will be more accessible.

CO: And others have said that it's not just that it will be closer to home, but the expectation that this health centre — this medical centre — will be culturally-sensitive. What's the importance of that?

BP: Well, that is very important because now it's going to be in an environment that's familiar to the people. The services will be provided in their own language. And we're looking at integrating some traditional healing practices. Nutrition is important because when you'll have to leave home, and you end up for months in the south, and you have no access to traditional food, that's something that doesn't help one to get well. So we'll be able to serve traditional food.

CO: And also, I understand that when you're dealing with addiction and addiction treatment that you'll be able to use culturally-appropriate methods when you're trying to help people with those issues?

BP: Yes, that's the idea. And then we are looking towards finding some healing from the land. Because you know it was not long ago — less than 50 years ago — we were on the land. And often, that was the only thing that we had to depend on in order to be well. And our elders say that there's a lot of healing that comes from the land, you know? So this is what we want to integrate into the mental health programs that we have, and also addiction.

CO: Just another area that’s been cited as being why this is so important. And that is reflected in recent reports that have shown the degree of racism that Indigenous people face in institutions like the health care system. What does it mean to be able to have your own hospital in avoiding that?

BP: Yes, of course, I mean, by keeping them in their own environment, we'll be able to ensure these culturally-safe environments where we can provide a service that they need. And that we are working on that. We have a department and it's about you know looking at ways of how to integrate healing practices into the programs and services that we do. And we also have with our non-Cree professionals who come to work in our region, we try to give them training on cultural safety as much as possible.

CO: Well, it sounds like this is going to be a big breakthrough for your community.

BP: Yes, it definitely will be. I mean we're really looking forward to it. It's gonna be a beautiful challenge. And it's Cree taking charge, you know? And, of course, that means decolonisation. So how else better can do it?

CO: Ms. Petawabano, thank you.

BP: All right. Thank you. Have a good day.

CO: Bye-bye.

BP: Bye.

TA: Bella Petawabano is the chair of the Cree Board of Health and Social Services of James Bay. She was in Montreal.

[Music: Ambient]

Trump G-7

JM: Since the mid-'70s, G-7 leaders — and G-8 leaders, when Russia was still included — have had dozens of summits. Choosing the venue for these summits is up to the host nation. There are a lot of factors in that decision: they need to be held in picturesque spots with adequate accommodations, and decent breakfast buffets. Next June, the U.S. will play host to a G-7 summit. And in his White House briefing yesterday, acting chief of staff Mick Mulvaney announced the 2020 venue, chosen after an exhaustive search. A search Mr. Mulvaney said involved all the criteria previous administrations had applied. A list was winnowed to ten possible sites, then four, and finally, one: a venue Mr. Mulvaney exulted was, quote, "far and away the best physical facility for this meeting."

SOUNDCLIP

MICK MULVANEY: We're gonna announce today that we're going to do the 46th G-7 summit on June 10th through June 12th at the Trump National Doral facility in Miami, Florida.

JM: Well, hey, after such a thorough selection process, who could have known they'd wind up choosing a Florida resort with the president's name on it? No one, that's who, or almost no one, anyway. Still, cynical reporters, as usual, ignored that rigorous process, and the almost eerie perfection of Doral as a G-7 venue. And instead, they asked Mick Mulvaney about the possibility of a, you know, glaring conflict of interest.

SOUNDCLIP

MM: Okay, couple different things. First off, you're not making a profit. I think we've already established that.

REPORTER: There’s marketing and branding opportunities.

MM: I've heard that before. You know, I guess I've been that the chief now for about nine or ten months. And I always hear it whenever we go to Mar-a-Lago. We play golf at Trump Bedminister. He goes play golf at Trump up in Sterling. And everybody asks the question is it not a huge marketing opportunity. I would simply ask you all to consider the possibility that Donald Trump's brand is probably strong enough as it is, and he doesn't need any more help on that. This is not like it's the most recognizable name in the English language, and probably around the world right now. So no, that has nothing to do with it. That's why, listen, I was skeptical. I was. I was aware of the political sort of a criticism that we’d come under for doing it at Doral — which is why I was so surprised when the advanced team called back and said that this is the perfect physical location to do this. So I get the criticisms. So does he. Face it, he’d be criticized regardless of what he chose to do. But no, there's no issue here on him profiting from this in any way shape or form.

JM: Mick Mulvaney, acting White House chief of staff, speaking to the press yesterday. So he made it clear that Mr. Trump won't profit from holding an international summit at his own property in any way. Except, presumably, the money way. And it's hard not share his genuine surprise that the legitimate selection process ended with the totally unbiased decision to hold that G-7 meeting at the president's golf resort. Some might say it's a new pinnacle of shady behaviour. But really, it's just another summit.

Provide Transcript Feedback

CBC would like to acknowledge the support of the Broadcasting Accessibility Fund.

October 18, 2019 episode transcript

Social Sharing

More from this episode