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The AIH Transcript for April 23, 2021

Hosts: Nil Koksal and Chris Howden

Prologue

NIL KOKSAL: Hello. I'm Nil Koksal, sitting in for Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: A process of un-elimination. The Supreme Court of Canada recognises the Indigenous rights of the Sinixt Nation, even though the Canadian government had declared that nation extinct

CH: With breathtaking speed. In India, where COVID-19 is spreading like wildfire, health care workers are comparing hospitals to war zones and themselves to poorly armed soldiers.

NK: Giving it their best shot yet. The lead investigator behind a breakthrough malaria vaccine tells us he's hopeful it could end up saving the lives of countless children in sub-Saharan Africa.

CH: He calls them as he sees them. And an American baseball announcer is lucky he saw one ball in particular because he didn't just save himself from injury, he made an amazing catch as well.

NK: Get your kicks on Fruit 66, and then move on to the dozens of other astonishing artworks created by a London woman who's thrown us all a series of curves by drawing on bananas.

CH: And without a moment for spares. Over a lifetime of bowling, John Hinkle Sr never hit 300. And now, in a moving tribute, his son has bowled a perfect game using a ball filled with his late father's ashes. As It Happens. The Friday Edition. Radio that suggests the ball and the player inside it had something in common: both were impressively bowled.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: U.K. woman bruises banana peels to make stunning art

Sinixt FN Decision

Guest: Rick Desautel & Rodney Cawston

CH: The Supreme Court of Canada has ruled that the Sinixt Nation exists and that its members have rights on Canadian land. The reason that's remarkable is that the Sinixt reservation is in Washington state, and the Canadian government had declared the nation extinct under Canadian law. But in 2010, the Sinixt leadership sent one of their members to kill an elk in their traditional territory in southeastern British Columbia. The hunter was Rick Desautel. Mr. Desautel was charged for violating Canadian conservation law, which began the case that led to today's precedent setting decision from the top court. We reached Rick Desautel and Rodney Cawston, the chairman of the Confederated Tribes of the Colville Reservation and the Sinixt confederacy on the reservation in Washington State.

NK: Mr. Desautel, I'll start with you, because this started with you in 2010 when you took down an elk here in Canada, then called up conservation authorities to make sure you would be charged. So what is it like today, how are you feeling?

RICK DESAULTEL: I'm feeling great. And there was a number of incidents where I was cited for hunting in Canada as an un-resident and hunting without a licence. It was just the middle one the 2010 that they decided to take me to court on.

NK: So a good feeling for you. Chairman Cawston, what is it like to hear from a court in Ottawa that your nation is not extinct?

RODNEY CAWSTON: You know, it's hard to describe. I think we always knew that we were here, that we were not extinct. It has been a long road. And I also want to recognise that we are not the only Sinixt -- we know that there's about 3000 Sinixt descendants on the Colville reservation today. But because of both legal and political histories, many of the Sinixt people in Canada also exist and are enrolled on other reserves in Canada. But today was totally awesome and indescribable. Sinixt -- our traditional homelands were in Canada as well as in the northern part of Washington State. Sinixt came all the way down to Kettle Falls, which was one of our ancient fishing sites. We gathered there at six o'clock this morning. Many of our members had opened the day with us with prayers and songs. And until we had awaited to hear the decision, when our attorney did call us and gave us that it was a positive decision and it was just a huge elation from everyone there.

NK: Well, what the ruling means is that the Sinixt will be able to exercise once again their rights on traditional lands on the Canadian side of the border. So what specifically will that mean for people in your community? And I can ask this of both of you.

RODNEY CAWSTON: Well, you know, for us, I think that our people can now go back up into our ancestral homeland and have that respect that our people exist and that we have that identity. And like I said, even though we never felt that we were extinct, it's really important to us that the Canadian government at that high level of a court, has recognised now and changed their determination that we are no longer extinct, that we do exist, that we can build that future with our future generations to have that strong identity so they can go back to those places where our people once existed before they were forcibly removed from our traditional homeland.

NK: And, Rick, what is it going to be like for you to go hunting up the Columbia River and into Canada the next time you can go?

RICK DESAULTEL: Hunting in my ancestral territory up there, even on the lower half down here on the Colville reservation, hunting where my father I know hunting up in the Lynx Creek, Hall Creek, and stuff out there. With the passing of his information on to me about different hunting areas and stuff like that there -- for me to come back up into the area that my great, great, great ancestors hunted and fished, to walk in their footsteps, to hunt in their eyes, look through the country through my eyes and see what they saw and the part of that hunting -- I don't know what you'd call it, but that thing that comes along with hunting and I haven't found a word for it yet.

NK: It's so moving how you describe the importance of it. And Chairman, I want to point out a quote for our listeners that you put in the statement you released today because it's quite powerful. You wrote "Dispossession is not over and it is not history." Can you elaborate on that for our listeners?

RODNEY CAWSTON: Yes, you know, there's still a lot of work that needs to be done. Our people were dispossessed and there is still the international border that separates us legally and politically. So there's a lot of work to do going forward. And there's so much unknown to us as a tribe as well. And also working with many of our relatives, like I said, in Canada. And I know we're going to still probably encounter many obstacles, not only from the United States, but maybe even from Canada as well as we do move forward. But this is a huge first step for us to be able to regain our recognition. And I can't tell you how much I appreciate that the legislation of reconciliation in Canada and I think this is very evident, you know, that the Supreme Court to uphold this decision, recognising our people and also it allows us and opens that door for us to work together to build better relations and to really address many of the injustices and historical wrongs, you know, that happened to many of our people.

NK: What would you say to Canadians who maybe are still trying to wrap their minds around the idea that for the first time now, the members of a US based First Nation have rights to use your traditional lands north of the border?

RODNEY CAWSTON: Right. You know for us that border was meaningless to our ancestors. That was not our border. Our people -- the ancestral homelands of the Sinixt extend it down into northern Washington and up into British Columbia. And so these lands historically have always been our traditional homelands. And for us, I really hope to make it -- we want to be a good neighbour. We want to make this as positive as possible for everybody. You know, we have as a tribe a lot of experience with our state and federal relationship. And we also have many of our own scientists and others on board that I think that we can really do a lot of really good work together. But for us, this has always been our homeland. My father, his father was Okanogan, but his mother was Sinixt. And he always used to tell us when we were growing up, we're from Canada, you know, I guess if you want to think of it that way. But we were placed here in the United States. Going back up there myself, I remember my aunts and others telling me that this country is going to know your footsteps through your ancestors. And that's the way I felt going back into those places. I felt like, you know, after you've been on the road and travelling for a long time and you finally get home and how you feel when you get home, that's the way I felt being back up in that country, being home again, being comfortable again and knowing that some of these places my grandmother used to talk about. And so although you may look at us as being United States citizens or Canadian nationals, to us that wasn't our border. It severed our people and it severed our families. And it's excited for us to be reunited again and having that opportunity for us to be able to go back to the lands where are our elders, our ancestors, where they came from.

NK: Chairman Cawston and Mr. Desautel thank you so much for this conversation.

RICK DESAULTEL: You're very welcome.

RODNEY CAWSTON: Yes. Thank you very much for reaching out.

CH: Rick Desautel is a member of the Sinixt Nation, and Rodney Cawston is the chairman of the Sinixt Confederacy. We reached them on the Colville Reservation in Washington State.

[Music: Banjo Music]

Malaria Vaccine

Guest: Halidou Tinto

CH: A new vaccine could be an extremely valuable new weapon in the fight against malaria. Today, researchers from Burkina Faso and the team behind the Oxford AstraZeneca COVID shot announced that a malaria vaccine has 77 percent efficacy in early trials. That is leaps and bounds ahead of previous vaccines for malaria, a disease that mostly kills children. And although it still needs more testing, researchers are optimistic. Halidou Tinto is a professor in parasitology at the Clinical Research Unit of Nanoro and the lead investigator on the vaccine trials. We reached him in Ouagadougou, Burkina Faso.

NK: Professor Tinto, this efficacy rate has been elusive for a malaria vaccine for so long, what was it like for you to see this result?

HALIDOU TINTO: It's really amazing because we have been working in the field of malaria vaccine for many years now. And if you go back five years, we tested another vaccine where we have got 56 percent of efficacy over one year. And for specifically our site in Burkina Faso, we have got 40 percent of efficacy. So this 77 percent of efficacy is incredible -- very very high. If we know that more than 100 vaccines have been tested so far, over the world, and this is the first time we are able to really reach so high level of efficacy

NK: After more than 100 of these kinds of vaccines have been tested we're now at this point. What specifically does 77 percent efficacy mean for those of us who aren't scientists?

HT: It means that if you vaccinate 100 kids, you can avert the malaria in 77 cases -- so to give you a sample figure of what does it mean.

NK: What happened with the children who were in this trial?

HT: The children are fine because the trial is still ongoing. We follow them for one year from which we report the results you will see today. But we are still continuing to follow up with these kids for one additional year. That will end in July 2021.

NK: Understood. How many children were in this initial trial?

HT: We recruited in total 450 children -- so 450. And they were divided into three groups. One group received a higher dose of the vaccine. The second group received a lower dose of the vaccine. And the third group was a control where we didn't give the malaria vaccine. So at the end, when you follow the three groups at the end, you compare the two groups where we administered the vaccine against the group where children did not receive the vaccine. And it's from this comparison that we get at this efficacy level.

NK: Were there any worrisome side effects professor?

HT: Yeah, we saw some side effects, but fortunately, we didn't report any serious adverse events related to the vaccine. Because like other vaccine, with any vaccine, you can get fever, a rash, and some clinical signs or symptoms related to the vaccine. But the most important is we did not report a serious adverse event. And the good news with this vaccine is that we didn't report any serious adverse event that is related to the vaccine.

NK: Certainly not deadly like malaria. Just give people a sense who may not know how severe it is, how deadly is malaria in your country, but also in sub-Saharan Africa as a whole.

HT: Thanks to the investment made by the government and international partners these last years, we clearly see that there is a decrease in terms of malaria mortality. But unfortunately, the clinical cases are still high. For instance, in Burkina Faso, where I'm living, last year we reported over 10 million of malaria cases for a population of 20 million inhabitants. So 10 million out of 20 million inhabitants, which is still very very high. And we hope that this vaccine will work because we are currently working in phase two. And the plan is to move on in phase three from next month. And for this phase three we will go across four countries -- in addition to Burkina, you will have Mali, Kenya, and Tanzania. Why do we have to do that? Simply because, as you may know, the malaria epidemiology is not the same across Africa. In Burkina, the malaria transmission is seasonal, so the malaria occurs mainly during the rainy season. When in some part of Africa you have malaria over all the year, so perineal. So it's important to see how the vaccine will work in these countries where the malaria transmission is different from Burkina. And we hope that in this phase three will confirm the nice result we have got in the phase two. And of course, if we are able to confirm that this will be, this will make a big impact and make a big difference with what we have seen so far

NK: And an impact for thousands of children potentially?

HT: Yeah, yeah, of course. Of course.

NK: You know, the time we're in right now, the pandemic, the emergency approval for COVID-19 vaccines. As you watch that unfold, it was necessary, certainly -- but do you feel that there should be the same level of urgency for this malaria vaccine as well?

HT: I would say no, simply because with COVID we do not have any treatments. And if you get the COVID, if you are not lucky, you will die. For malaria, fortunately, we have a good treatment. But of course we need a vaccine because so far the vaccine is the only tool that we're able to eradicate the endemic in the world. And if you know the impact of malaria in young children, we absolutely need a vaccine, but we cannot rush it. We have to take the time to go through a proper phase three trial because the disease is completely different with COVID-19.

NK: So 400,000 deaths or so a year, correct?

HT: Yeah, this is unfortunate. And we think that malaria deserves all the mobilisation we have seen with COVID-19. And we hope that the international community and funders will put more resources to really move on very fast, to propose to our children a very good malaria vaccine in the coming years.

NK: Professor Tinto thank you so much for your time. We'll certainly be watching to see how phase two continues and as phase three unfolds. Thank you.

HT: Thank you very much.

CH: Halidou Tinto is the lead investigator on the new malaria vaccine. We reached him in Ouagadougou, Burkina Faso.

[Music: Piano Music]

Banana Art Woman

Guest: Anna Chojnicka

CH: When Anna Chojnicka completes another of her breathtaking works of art, she posts it for an appreciative and growing audience on Instagram. Then she reflects on where that particular artwork fits in her oeuvre thematically and aesthetically. Then she probably eats it, I guess, or puts it in a smoothie. During the pandemic Ms. Chojnicka has taken up drawing -- not on paper, though. She creates surprisingly rich, sometimes cartoony, sometimes photo realistic art on bananas. We reached Anna Chojnicka in London.

NK: So, Anna, how did you become a banana artist?

ANNA CHOJNICKA: Well, it's something I definitely didn't plan on becoming. It all started at the beginning of the first phase of the lockdown, so 2020. I was sick actually with suspected coronavirus, so I was trying to be very conscientious about staying in my bedroom, self isolated. And then for week one, I was pretty sick so I was just in bed trying to get better. And then for the second week I was feeling much better, but I had to stay in my bedroom. So I was beginning to go a little bit stir crazy. And the result was banana art. [Chuckles]

NK: So I took a quick search through your grid. And I think the octo banana, pac man, butterfly are just a couple of my favourites. But what other kinds of things have you drawn on these bananas?

AC: It's been quite a range. So I take inspiration from different things. Sometimes it might be a social cause that's important to me. So, for example, I've done several bananas in celebration or to show support for a dam in Ethiopia. I used to live in Ethiopia, so it's a close knit to my heart, which, well, it's a big infrastructure project that can lift people out of poverty. Or I've done bananas in the past to show support for health workers who are supporting us through the pandemic and for the scientists who discovered the vaccine. I tend to celebrate different cultural festivals happening around the world. It might also just be something that's like happened to me that day that feels like worth capturing or somebody who's inspired me or I'll do like a birthday banana for a family member. So it really varies.

NK: And I said draw. But we have to make sure people know that you say 'The banana is bruised, no ink is used.' So what exactly are you doing to these bananas? How does it work?

AC: Yes, I don't use any ink. I don't use a pen or paint or anything. It's purely by brusing the peel of the banana. So I use a seam ripper. But you can use any blunt point to do this. I just press into the peel of the banana quite lightly and then it gradually gets darker. So like the mark that I make by doing that over time becomes darker and darker until it almost becomes black after a few hours. So by using timing, you can create different gradients of shading. So I don't like press harder to create a darker line or anything. It's all done in timing. So you start with the parts that you want to be the darkest first and then you wait for that to get darker and then you do the slightly lighter parts next and then all the way back to the lightest bits that you want at the end.

NK: And are you sketching them out on paper first or is it just freehand?

AC: You know, I usually just do it straight onto the banana these days. I've been doing one every single day. Yeah, it's now been almost 400 bananas because I've been doing this for over a year. So I feel like at this stage it just has to go straight onto the banana.

NK: Are you sick of eating bananas, though? Because as I understand it, you're eating the bananas that you make your art on?

AC: Yeah, no, actually, I mean, I think people have the idea that I'm chugging bananas by the cyclone [Laughs]. Actually, I either have one a day or even one every two days because sometimes I'll do two images on either side of the banana. So it's pretty manageable or I'll get my housemate to eat one every now and then.

NK: But this has turned into something a lot bigger, not just that you and I are speaking, but it's connecting you to your community in a different way.

AC: Yeah, it's definitely built into something much bigger than I had imagined in a way that's been really beautiful and very positive for me. Quite early on in the process, when it started to gather a bit more attention, I thought maybe there's an opportunity to do some good with this. So I started to raise money for a charity here in the UK called FareShare, which distributes food to people in need, and particularly at the beginning of the pandemic that was something that there was a big need for. And they're also focussing on reduction of food waste. So I raised some money by challenging myself to do a banana every day. Obviously, I didn't realise at that point that I'd be continuing over a year later. But otherwise I've been running workshops for different charities. I did one recent that was about combining or supporting elderly people in east London, in the UK where I'm based, so community members who are isolated and suffering from loneliness and doing some banana brusing workshops with them, and it was really about like socialising and finding a space to chat, but also to build creativity and mindfulness. And it's quite therapeutic and calming as well. So it's connected me to people in different ways. That's been really wonderful.

NK: So you're getting potassium, human connection, and a creative outlet. It sounds like a win win win. Do you think you'll do 400 more? How long do you see this going on for?

AC: Yeah, we'll see. It's hard to say at this stage, but I'm interested in exploring where else it can go. Soon I'll be launching a website and I'm going to be doing a limited edition of posters and that's a new venture for me. And I think the nice thing about this being online is that I can kind of gain a lot of international connection. And it's so exciting for me to be on CBC tonight because I used to live in Ontario and being able to connect with Canadian citizens is a real joy because Canada has a very special place in my heart.

NK: Oh, that's lovely. That's lovely to hear. We're so glad we could chat as well. Any tips for someone who may want to start making their own banana art in terms of, you know, what's the perfect banana to start with when they're shopping?

AC: Oh good question. This is very important. I mean, the first thing is, is try to get a banana with quite a wide face so that you have more surface area to work on. Try and get one that doesn't already have too many bruises because otherwise you've got to try and connect those somehow into your image, which can be tricky. And then the riper banana, the kind of softer and so it goes dark a bit more quickly, which can work really well for some images if you're trying to, like, create almost a blended shade or if you go for a harder banana that can help with more intricate designs where you want like a really fine line to be focussed.

NK: A bunch of bananas in my kitchen is looking a lot more interesting now. Thank you so much Anna. And I'm so glad we could chat.

AC: Me too. Thank you so much for having me.

CH: Anna Chojnicka has been creating bruised banana during the pandemic and posting her creations to social media. We've linked to some of those photos on our website: cbc.ca/aih. And if you decide to attempt your own banana art, you can share images with us on Twitter @CBCAsItHappens.

[Music: Guitar Music]

Sound of the day: Catch

CH: This week, NCAA baseball listed its plays of the week on Twitter. And Geoff Haxton made the cut. Mr. Haxton is not a college baseball player. He's a play by play baseball announcer for Texas Tech, who made a seriously impressive catch. He was calling the Red Raiders game against West Virginia University when suddenly a ball was heading straight at him. Here's what that moment sounded like.

VOICE 1: [SOUNDCLIP: That's coming right back at us! [Crowd cheers]

VOICE 2: Yeah! Hax! With bare hands. Woah. Great play Geoff Haxton.

GEOFF HAXTON: My hand hurts so bad right now.

VOICE 2: Oh, man, you are my hero. What a play Hax. Woah!]

CH: As the saying goes, one lucky fan just caught a souvenir. That was Texas baseball announcer Geoff Haxton catching a foul ball barehanded in the booth. That's our Sound of the Day.

[Music: Hip-hop Music]

Part 2: Doctor explains why the 2nd wave of COVID-19 is devastating India

India Covid Bad

Guest: Srinath Reddy

CH: Hospitals in India are running out of beds and running out of oxygen. A deadly second wave of COVID-19 is aggressively sweeping through India. Yesterday and today, the country recorded the world's highest daily infection count to date, more than 300,000 new cases both days. Meanwhile, hospitals are being flooded with critically ill patients. Health care workers have compared scenes there to a war zone. Dr. Srinath Reddy is the president of the Public Health Foundation of India. We reached him on the outskirts of New Delhi.

NK: Dr. Reddy, paint a picture for us if you can. What is it like for COVID patients in India's hospitals right now?

SRINATH REDDY: It's terrible at the moment. The southern states are doing quite well, they're coping quite well because they've always had stronger health systems. But the states in northern India, particularly Delhi and the surrounding region, for example, they're all having a terrible time. And Maharashtra has been one of the worst hit states -- that and Gujarat are also having a torrid time.

NK: If we were to walk into one, what would we see?

SR: In many of these places, there is a great rush for beds which are not available in the hospital, particularly intensive care beds. But even getting a hospital admission is becoming extremely difficult. And unfortunately, this has been compounded by a shortage of oxygen -- particularly in Delhi, and that's created a crisis. And now there are emergency measures being taken to ensure that oxygen from other states reaches Delhi. And the government of India has even ordered 23 oxygen generation plants to be airlifted from Germany for the armed forces hospitals in India and armed forces hospitals now are also opening up for non-military personnel for treatment. And so a lot of efforts are going in to try and correct oxygen supply situation. But at the moment there is quite a challenge there. And many people are suffering the consequences of not getting admitted, not getting the right kind of treatment.

NK: People are sleeping outside the hospitals I've heard.

SR: Yes, people are desperately trying to get admission. Emergency hospital facilities are being opened up, temporary facilities are being opened up in Delhi as well, which were previously organised last year but they were all closed in January under the impression that the pandemic had completely abated.

NK: On the issue of oxygen, one member of parliament tweeted out a plea, "These people will die just like fish die in the absence of water." How is it that hospitals don't have enough oxygen tanks?

SR: The supplies ran short partly because they never expected so many patients to be requiring oxygen. And the supplies from the other states, which would have been generating oxygen, producing it, and then usually would have been transporting to other states, they started retaining and thinking that they are coming under pressure themselves. Delhi, for example, was dependent on oxygen supply from other states. And when they shut off the transport of oxygen through their borders, Delhi started suffering intensely. But now the central government has stepped in, invoking the Disaster Management Act, and they said that all interstate transport will be unhindered and will be protected.

NK: You know, elsewhere the pandemic has been serious and severe for quite some time now. So how did India get to this point?

SR: Unfortunately, in January there was a sense of false comfort because from September end onwards, the cases on a daily basis, the daily deaths, as well as the test positivity rates all started declining. And by January, they had reached a very low point, each one of them. And then the feeling came not only that the first wave had ended, but the pandemic had completely passed India for the second wave. There were all kinds of estimates made that herd immunity had arrived and India would not actually see the pandemic again. That led the public to feel that they could go about the full flow of normal life. So the complete abandonment of caution and allowing super spreader events, large gatherings to take place, whether for political reasons or for religious reasons. And the emergence of three variants in different parts of the country now had a highway for their passage.

NK: What about all the vaccines though India has been producing? Why aren't those helping?

SR: Well, actually, India was producing vaccines and it was thought that the production would be adequate in a relatively graded manner because the second wave was not anticipated. So the essential workers were first vaccinated, starting with the health workers, then going to other essential workers and then people above 60, then people above 45 with health conditions, then all people above 45. So all this was sequenced, thinking that there was no rush in order to protect everybody at once because it was thought that we are not going to have a second wave again. And that's why India started exporting to 80 countries. But then with the surge that has happened, now there is a sense of urgency that we need to vaccinate in a hurry. And therefore, firstly, exports have been stopped. Now we are beginning to import some of the vaccines which have been approved by foreign regulators while stepping up the domestic production of those vaccines which have already been approved in India, plus other ones also being now produced in India under licence. And that is going to actually ramp up

NK: At last count India has close to 16-million confirmed infections. What is the way forward for India here? How does India overcome this?

SR: It is a very grim situation. It's a terrible challenge. But obviously the solutions are very clear. Everybody has to wear a mask when moving out of the house and ensure that they are protected against any potential transmission by not participating in a crowded event, indoor or outdoor. It is also important that the administration everywhere in India ensures that super spreader events with large gatherings do not take place. Third, we must try and provide home care in an efficient manner because 80 percent of the people do not need hospitalisation and now there is a rush to hospitals because nobody is sure what will happen to them if they stay back home. And finally, we need to speed up vaccination efforts. If we do all of these four things properly, then we will be able to tide over -- though we have actually landed ourselves in a crisis through our complacence.

NK: Dr. Reddy, thank you so much for your time.

SR: Thank you.

CH: Dr. Srinath Reddy is the president of the Public Health Foundation of India. We reached him on the outskirts of New Delhi. You can find more on this story on our webpage: cbc.ca/aih. Yesterday, Canada announced that it was banning direct passenger flights from India and Pakistan for 30 days. But Mike Saw's wife is in India right now. She left their home in Edmonton two weeks ago. And in an interview with the CBC this morning, Mr. Saw explained why his wife had to take the trip.

MIKE SAW: [SOUNDCLIP: She lost her father back in February. And then a couple of weeks after her mom was diagnosed with something very terminal, so she had to go to see her ailing mother. She couldn't see her father, but this was a trip she needed to take.

MARK CONNOLLY: What was your reaction when you found out the government's 30 day ban on flights from India and Pakistan?

MIKE SAW: Honestly, Mark, I was shocked. Like, I knew that it's coming. But when you face it right in your face, then it starts to hit you. That means my kids and me will be -- I don't know, as of now with the 30 day ban we'll just be without her for an extended period of time. I have a five year old who hasn't been without his mom for that long. So that can be challenging. And then me on a full time job and juggling the other fronts as well, you know, wearing many hats, it gives me a bit of an anxiety. And, of course, you know, concern about my wife back there, like, how it's going to pan out for her with all that situation? The numbers are just spiralling out of control.

MARK CONNOLLY: And meanwhile, she's dealing with her mom with a terminal illness. There's lots of things going on there for her.

MIKE SAW: Absolutely. And that's kind of hard even with her mom getting the right treatment that she should be getting. But they're trying to do the best with all the resources they have. But right now, all the hospitals and health facilities have been kind of overwhelmed with just COVID overtaking everything else being super stretched.

MARK CONNOLLY: Originally, when was she supposed to come home? And then how are you trying to juggle that?

MIKE SAW: She is supposed to be here like second week of May. Now we're just trying to figure out like we are waiting for the next updates to happen so that we can make sure if we do a rebooking that, you know, we don't have to rebook again. And then at this point, what I'm trying to avoid is her coming through Europe, because that would be an extra layer of exposure and then she would need to take another COVID test. So, yeah, that's a lot of anxiety, and a big question mark out there.]

CH: That was Mike Saw speaking with Mark Connolly, host of Edmonton AM today.

[Music: Synth Music]

Bowling Dad's Ashes

Guest: John Hinkle Jr.

CH: All his life, John Hinkle Sr. tried to bowl a perfect game. But it was only in death that he finally managed to pull it off. John Sr. died in 2016. The Illinois man's son John Jr. recently filled a bowling ball with his beloved father's ashes. And it was with that ball earlier this month, John Jr. landed a perfect 300 game. We reached John Hinkle Jr. in Peoria, Illinois.

NK: John, do you think your dad deserves some of the credit for this perfect bowling game you scored?

JOHN HINKLE JR: I would say so. He's the one that got me and my twin brother into bowling when we were like four years old. So he's the one that, you know, with my mom who would take us bowling every weekend. Growing up, watching them bowl on the beach, just like our parents obviously.

NK: When you realised you actually scored 300 points with that bowling ball filled with your late father's ashes, what was that moment like?

JOHN HINKLE JR: So I've had, you know, quite a few 300s. So once you shoot your first one, your nerves kind of calm down. But this one was a little harder. About the seventh, eighth frame, I was getting really emotional. My brother was talking to me, trying to keep my mind off stuff, off of the bowling. And about the 11th frame, because it's 12 strikes, you know, it's a perfect game. The 11th frame, I mean, it was hard to even focus on throwing because I had tears in my eyes already. And that last ball, I threw the 12th ball, I could not tell you where it went. I just threw it because, I mean it was just so much emotion going on. But once I saw it hit, I kind of went down to the ground and it was definitely an emotional night. And if you watch the video, the person that hugs me is my twin brother. So it was amazing that he was there and we shared it together.

NK: You felt your dad with you?

JOHN HINKLE JR: Oh my dad was definitely there because, like I said, there were probably one or two strikes that I was like "Uh oh that's not going to strike," -- and somehow, it did.

NK: You felt like he was guiding it all, maybe.

JOHN HINKLE JR: Oh he was present. He was definitely there with me and my brother.

NK: Where did the idea come from to put your dad's ashes in a bowling ball?

JOHN HINKLE JR: So, you know, my dad passed away in 2016. And I was in charge of a lot of my dad's stuff. So I wanted to give my brother some ashes. And I was talking with my brother one day and I said, dude I'm going to get a bowling ball and just try to get dad's ashes in it, and dad will always be there with us because dad grew up watching this. And it was hard to keep bowling without our parents there. Because my mom passed away in 2014. I was like Joe, like, I'm doing it, I've got to find someone to do it for me. And I talked to a couple people and they were like they didn't know if they could do it and they didn't want to ruin anything so they wouldn't do it. And then one of my childhood friends opened up a pro shop in Washington, Illinois, and she said, let's try. And I said, I don't care what happens to the bowling ball, like, I have to try it. It's like, let's try to make this work. So we got a small capsule and we filled it with my dad's ashes and we dropped it in and kind of sealed it. So as a two handed bowler, the new rule as of last year you cannot have a thumbhole. So I had a ball that had a thumbhole, so I had to get it filled anyway. So that's how we came across using that ball.

NK: So there's no holes in this ball?

JOHN HINKLE JR: So in bowling you use two fingers and a thumb. Well, I only use two fingers because I throw two handed. So it's illegal to have a thumb hole in your ball anymore if you throw with just two fingers. So I had to get the thumb hole filled in.

NK: And so you put the ashes inside a capsule and then you put that inside the hole where your thumb would normally go. Right?

JOHN HINKLE JR: Right, correct.

NK: How close did your dad get to the perfect score? Was it something that nagged at him all the time?

JOHN HINKLE JR: You know, I think my dad was humble with everything. I mean, he bowled 35-40 years. And we talked about it a few times, his high game. And I watched a couple of his high games -- 298-299. And he never could get over that hump. And as a bowler, I've bowled my whole life too, and most of your first games that you shoot high scores it will be 298-299 because there's so much nerves and excitement going on, like you might not get that last strike. So, you know, he always had 299-298 and he just never to get the perfect game. And I wanted to do that for him. And it happened.

NK: You did it, you did it for both of you. We should tell people you went on to become a pro. You're not an amateur, you're a two time NCAA champion. How did your dad feel about your success?

JOHN HINKLE JR: He's been proud of me since day one. And he was never afraid to tell people about me. He was always the dad, the non-stop talked about his children, and he loved us very much.

NK: What do you remember about those days that you mentioned that he would go all the time -- the whole family crew bowling?

JOHN HINKLE JR: I remember getting in trouble at the bowling alleys. Me and my brother, you know, I don't want to say we were the annoying kids, but, you know, when you live in a bowling alley and you know you're always there, we've got to find something to have fun. So we might have gotten in trouble a few times. But no, just running around.

NK: Lots of places to be mischievous in a bowling alley when you're little, right, lots of places to hide and get up to no good. [Laughs]

JOHN HINKLE JR: We found some crazy places to hide. Yes, definitely. [Laughs]

NK: What do you think your dad would have said about this idea of yours to take him with you?

JOHN HINKLE JR: He would have been the first one down there. He would have definitely been the first one. And he would just said, "That's my boy." I mean, that's something he always said to me. And he would always hug me, and "That's my boy." And yeah.

NK: Do you think you're going to keep bowling with this ball?

JOHN HINKLE JR: So there's a big tournament that's after the bowling season and it's called the Tournament of Champions. And it's all the first place teams throughout the surrounding area of Peoria, Illinois. So it's an 84 team tournament kind of like March Madness and it's a month long tournament. Well, that's actually the last tournament I bowled with my dad. So I think I'm going to use it for the Tournament of Champions. And then, yes, at the end of May, I will retire the ball.

NK: Well, John, thank you so much for sharing your dad's story with us and congratulations.

JOHN HINKLE JR: I appreciate it. Thank you.

CH: John Hinkle is a two time NCAA bowling champion. He recently used a bowling ball containing his dad's ashes to bowl a perfect game. We reached him in Peoria, Illinois.

[Music: Slide Guitar Music]

Shock G

CH: There's a long history in hip-hop of artists adopting aliases and akas to showcase their range. But when it came to creating and maintaining persona, Shock G was in a league of his own. The West Coast rapper and frontman for Digital Underground has died. He was 57. In the early 90s, Digital Underground records were a must have for any deejay looking to rock a party. Fans loved Shock G's smooth delivery, but they also loved Humpty Hump whose nasal voice and goofy lyrics complemented Shock G perfectly. And when the group's music videos dropped, rumours started going around that the two rappers might be the same person. It wasn't much of a disguise. Humpty Hump looked a lot like Shock G wearing a fake nose and glasses. And Humpty's backstory was pretty fishy. It claimed Edward Ellington Humphrey III, former lead singer of Smooth Eddie and the Humpers, became a rapper after burning his nose in a deep fryer. But Shock G's contributions to hip-hop were very real. His group helped introduce the world to a little known artist named Tupac Shakur. And when songs like The Humpty Dance and Do What You Like came on, no one cared which persona was on the mic.

[Music: Happy Music]

Part 3: Old Seed Experiment

Old Seed Experiment

Guest: Marjorie Weber

CH: Scientists at the University of Michigan have uncovered a treasure that was buried well over a century ago -- well, at least what biologists consider buried treasure. Every few years since 1879, plant biologists have been digging up old bottles filled with dirt and seeds. It's called the Beal Seed Viability Experiment because it was started by Professor William James Beal, who buried all the bottles in the first place. It's the longest running plant biology experiment in the world. And earlier this month, armed with shovels and an old map, a group of biologists met in the middle of the night at a secret location on campus to unearth the latest bottle. Marjorie Weber is an assistant professor at the University of Michigan. She was part of the latest dig and we reached her in East Lansing, Michigan.

NK: Professor Weber, you were the lucky one, you found this old bottle of seeds, at least this time around. So what was that moment like?

MARJORIE WEBER: [Laughs] Yes, I was the lucky one. It was a really exciting moment. I was on my belly with my head in this hole covered in dirt. It was the dark of night. It was snowing and sleeting. And we were all kind of cold. And we'd been out there for a long time trying to find these, you know, old historic bottles in the soil. And we were starting to get kind of nervous that we weren't going to find them that night, and that we would have to go the next night. And the birds were starting to sing so we were getting kind of really nervous. And my head was down there and I was feeling with my hands through the sandy soil because I didn't want to use a shovel, because I didn't want to break the bottles accidentally and, like, ruined the experiment. You don't want to be the person who ruined the experiment after all this time. And I found the bottles and it was really exciting. Everyone was cheering

NK: For someone, you know, who's just listening and learning about this experiment as you and I speak: Why is it happening at night? What compels you to want to do this in the dead of night with snow and rain and all the other elemental issues around you?

MW: Yeah, well, it does have a sense of sort of mystery and mystique, and that's really fun. But the main reason why we go out at night is just to protect the seeds that we're not going to dig up. We're trying to protect them from being exposed to sunlight because we don't want those to start germinating, and then that would ruin the experiment. So we want them to remain under the cloak of darkness so that they can be there for future experiments.

NK: A treasure hunt, to be sure. It's just so fascinating. Let's go way back, though, to Professor Beal. Why did Professor Beal bury these 20 bottles back in 1879?

MW: Yeah, so in the 20 bottles, he has seeds from 23 species of plants. And those 23 species of plants are species of agricultural weeds that he was interested in the time because they kept popping up in farmers' fields -- no matter, you know, how many times they would weed their fields, the seeds just kind of kept popping up and growing. And so Beal was really interested in how long weeds can hang out in the soil of agricultural fields.

NK: How has the location remained secret all of these years?

MW: [Chuckles] Yeah, the location has remained secret through this chain of scientists passing on the map and the information one after another through generations of people. And it will continue to be passed on after I'm dead. I was just sort of thinking like, oh, the next people we choose to take this over, they probably haven't even been born yet.

NK: Wow. Well, there's that code then -- that professional code between you all.

MW: That's right. Yeah, we know where it is, but we keep it secret. You know, we don't want it to be something that people are going to go out and do a treasure hunt for. The bottles aren't worth anything. You know, it's just the experiment and the seeds inside the bottles and the knowledge they can bring us by keeping the experiment alive. That's what's really worth something.

NK: And this is the first time a woman has been part of this centuries old experiment.

MW: That's right. I'm the first woman to be one of the professors in charge of the experiment. And I'm finding that to be a very moving experience. You know, so much has changed in the world since these bottles were placed into the ground 140 years ago. These plants are waking up into a world with a changed climate, and that's true both environmentally but also societally. And I doubt that the scientists who put the seeds in the ground 140 years ago would have imagined somebody like me being part of the team, you know, to be in charge of them today.

NK: Well they certainly have a great ambassador in you. You're painting a vivid and really beautiful and moving picture. What have you learnt from the experiment?

MW: So over the course of the tenure of the experiment, we've learnt that seeds can survive in the soil for an incredibly long amount of time. I mean, we knew that seeds could survive in very, you know, perfect conditions, like if we keep them cold or dry. But we don't know as much about how seeds can survive just in the soil outside, which is where most seeds are. And we're really interested in that science. And we don't have other long term experiments like this trying to understand, you know, how long can they really survive in these conditions where they're wet and they're getting cold and they're getting warm and there's, you know, microbes? And so we've learnt that species can last a really long time in the soil, but not all of them can. You know, only some species last this long.

NK: And how soon will you know if the seeds you found in that bottle are actually viable?

MW: So we're going in every day and like, you know, going down to these big -- they're called growth chambers in the bottom of the biology building where these seeds are, you know, in dirt and they're under these controlled conditions. We should know in about a week or two whether or not we're going to get germination. It's going to be so exciting if we do. But it'll also be really exciting if we don't. I mean, we've reached sort of the edge of how long these seeds can survive in the soil. That'll be also really interesting to know.

NK: I mean, this would be exciting for you anyway, I'm sure. But given the time we're in now, how does that impact the experiment and the point you're at?

MW: Yeah, I mean, you know, originally this experiment was designed to try and understand about agricultural weeds. However, you know, now we have this whole other set of things that we're really interested in and concerned about that have to do with seed longevity. We're interested in how long seeds can survive so that we can conserve different species, so that we can restore different habitats after natural disasters or after different types of disturbances. We're eventually probably going to be interested in taking seeds to Mars. I mean, we're kind of living in a world where understanding seed longevity has a whole different meaning to it than when this experiment was first started.

NK: And how does it get passed on? How do you choose who the next group is going to be?

MW: That's a good question. You know, there's no rule for choosing exactly who gets to take over the experiment. It'll be professors at Michigan State University, the university where the experiment is housed. And the main thing will be it'll be young people who are excited about plants and plant biology.

NK: And how many bottles are left to find?

MW: There are four bottles left. I'm 36 right now, the next one will be dug up when I'm 55, then when I'm 75. And then I hope they kind of, you know, wheel me out there when I am 95. [Laughter]

NK: Time capsules of a very different kind. So so fascinating. Well, I'm excited to see what happens in a week as you are -- maybe not as excited as you. But very glad we could get Professor Weber.

MW: Yes. Thank you so much for your interest in the experiment.

NK: Take care.

MW: All right. Bye bye.

CH: Marjorie Weber is an assistant professor of plant biology at the University of Michigan. We reached her in East Lansing, Michigan.

[Music: Guitar Music]

MI5 Instagram

Guest: Louise Pears

CH: Yesterday, the British spy agency MI5 made a big announcement: it's now on Instagram. So if you want a little bit of intelligence gathering mixed in with your friends selfies and French toast pics, you are in luck. Louise Pears is a security specialist at the University of Leeds who has studied how intelligence organisations use their social media platforms. We reached her in Leeds, England.

NK: Louise, why is MI5 on Instagram now in 2021?

LOUISE PEARS: Yeah, so in many ways they are kind of late to the party. And the CIA actually joined Twitter in 2014. They've kind of spoken about how it's part of a bid for transparency. It's also to do with recruitment for them. And this kind of move that we're seeing from a lot of intelligence agencies to sort of open up in some sense and engage with social media users.

NK: It's interesting. MI5 director Ken McCallum actually wrote an op ed in the Telegraph writing, "We must get past whatever martini drinking stereotypes are lingering." But why is it a priority for MI5 to get away from those James Bond stereotypes associations? Is it just about recruitment rather or is there more there?

LP: I think it's about more than that, I think it's about that kind of identity and the way that they seek legitimation in this new age and the need to kind of engage with the public in the most direct way. So whilst recruitment is definitely part of it, I think there's more going on there than recruitment alone.

NK: Let's talk about the tone they're taking, because that's an interesting facet to all of this. And the CIA's first tweet was "We can neither confirm nor deny that this is our first tweet." So tongue in cheek, certainly. The Instagram post from MI5 have also been light-hearted. There's just a couple there. What's behind that tone?

LP: Yeah, so they're in a really similar tone. And that's been true of all intelligence agencies. And in the research that I've done, it's very much kind of light hearted, kind of humorous tone. I think there's a lot to kind of humanise these agencies. And it's a move that kind of really changes the identity that they put out there -- to this kind of funny, self-aware and cool open kind of sort of millennial identity that uses kind of Twitter speak and memes and jokes. And I think it's really interesting that that's the identity that these agencies more traditionally associated with kind of national secrets and kind of serious branch of government are now using

NK: What was the messaging from MI5 like in the past?

LP: Previously, because they're a government agency, it's been much more official. So this is kind of very different from an official kind of government position that you would previously encounter. And that said, it's difficult to say that these moves that we're seeing from intelligence agencies are that big of a break in tradition because it's part of a much longer trend to intervene in popular culture and they have long been interested in their image and their kind of cultural resonance.

NK: It's getting an interesting reaction as well. You mentioned your research into the CIA's Twitter account. So let's talk about that a bit. What kind of reaction are they getting to their posts? Because it's not all just smiley faces.

LP: No. So you kind of get a full reach. You get a lot of people that are kind of saying it's great. And you see this a little bit from the MI5 account. And the press that's been kind of lauded as this kind of fun and interesting move. But from users there's a bit more scepticism. So there are those users here that are kind of criticising them for wasting their time on social media with the kind of "Why aren't you out there fighting terrorists or catching ISIS?" But then you get people who are kind of more critical of these agencies more fundamentally, and they use these -- this is an opportunity to say kind of, I disagree with what you're doing, I'm not falling for this or we know that really you are out there doing kind of nefarious violent activities. And so you do see more kind of scepticism from users in social media as well as, of course, quite a lot of people saying, you know, this is great, you're really funny LOL -- all of that -- and join in with the jokes.

NK: They're certainly dark chapters in the CIA's history, ongoing questions about how these agencies operate. When you think of what more might be at play, what kind of agenda do you think MI5 has?

LP: Yeah, so I think it's really interesting that they engage in this kind of light-hearted way and identity that they put out there and a lot of engagement. And we've seen this already in that Instagram account with kind of diversity and diversity within their staff. But I think it does more than just kind of widen their potential recruits. And it's doing something to kind of legitimise the actions that they go in for. You know, it's easy to make light of something or make self-referential joke without necessarily having to change or go through a greater interrogation or introspection on the kind of activities of violences they are being criticised for. And I think we see this in reaction to a lot of the kind of controversies that have come in the light of the kind of Snowden revelations, the CIA and the kind of suspicion about their activities. And then you see this kind of friendly, funny, human Twitter account. And I think it's actually doing quite a lot for their public image.

NK: It's PR.

LP: Yeah, in a lot of ways it's PR. But it's kind of more than that as well, I think. How much of it's the kind of actively and knowingly in order to change that message. But what I'm really interested in kind of academically and the research I do is what the outcome of that is and what kind of security activities it enables or the kind of the conditions of possibility that result in this kind of change of identity.

NK: We all have to be cautious and careful when we post on social media, regardless of platform. But, you know, for these agencies, they have to be particularly careful about what they can and can't reveal. And obviously, that's their speciality. They know what to hold back and what to post. But it's dicey, no?

LP: Yeah, I think that's what's really interesting about catching in transparency, because obviously it's a very controlled version of transparency. And you see with the CIA tweets a huge theme of is historical. They talk about things that have happened in the past rather than it being kind of any contemporary revelations about their practises. It tends to be kind of celebrations of past activity or accounts of past events. And you've seen that a little bit because the Instagram -- MI5 have this kind of account of pigeons. And actually CIA have also tweeted about the use of pigeons. Pigeons seems to be quite a popular thing. But I think it's obviously careful not to reveal too much, but also careful to maintain a particular image and brand image that they're trying to cultivate.

NK: Yeah, it's a curated picture for sure. Are you following MI5?

LP: Yeah I follow them.

NK: Do you think they'll follow you back?

LP: I can't see it happening.

NK: Thanks for this Louise.

LP: Yeah, it's been good to talk.

CH: Louise Pears is a security specialist at the University of Leeds in England.

[Music: Piano Music]

Bee Sting

CH: Thanks to their Herculean efforts to develop COVID vaccines and therapies over the past year, the world's scientists have been the subject of some overdue buzz. But as this show has certainly sought to acknowledge, researchers of all stripes have a long and proud tradition of commitment to their craft. In a select few cases, commitment that flies in the face of reason. Take, for instance, Michael Smith, a Cornell University graduate student who was stung in the testicles by a bee and decided to go back for more in the name of knowledge. In 2014, he told Carol about his ensuing effort to find out which parts of the human body, specifically his human body, were most painful when stung. Here is part of that conversation in celebration of scientists everywhere.

MICHAEL SMITH: [SOUNDCLIP: Let's see, there are 25 total locations and that ranges everything from the skull to the upper arm, the lower back, the wrist, the back of the knee, the abdomen, the nipple, the armpit, cheek, upper lip, nostril, I mean, amongst many others.

CAROL OFF: And what about your genitals?

MICHAEL SMITH: So the ones that made the cut were the scrotum and the penis shaft.

CAROL OFF: How did you get the bee to sting? What did you actually do?

MICHAEL SMITH: So to get a bee to sting you, first what I do is I select bees and then with a pair of forceps, I would actually apply the bee to whatever I wanted stung. Once I could feel the sting, I'd wait for five seconds for the stinger to actually insert into this thing. And then I would pull the bee away, leaving the stinger in your skin and I would let that sit for about a minute.

CAROL OFF: Let me get this straight. You took a bee with little tweezers and you put it on your penis, allowed it to sting you, and then you let that sit there for a minute.

MICHAEL SMITH: You know, when you say it like that, it does make me seem like a crazy person.

CAROL OFF: [Chuckles] All right. The question is, which of the bee stings actually was the most painful?

MICHAEL SMITH: So the very most painful location was the nostril, and that received the scoring of a nine. And a sting to the nostril is a full body experience. You know, just immediately your nose just starts just flowing mucus. Your eyes are tearing and watering, your sneezing. I was sneezing a lot. It was a very violent reaction. You put the stinger there and the stinger is in there for a minute. And pretty much your whole body just wants that stinger out as quickly as possible.

CAROL OFF: All right. What was next?

MICHAEL SMITH: The next one is the upper lip that got an 8.7. Where as the nostril got a 9. So the penis shaft and scrotum are the next two. Although the scrotum ties with the palm and the cheek and the armpit.

CAROL OFF: And nipple comes after that I think.

MICHAEL SMITH: The nipple is a 6.7]

CH: Cornell University graduate student Michael Smith speaking with Carol in 2014 about his study of the most painful locations to be stung by a bee.

[Music: Guitar Music]

Indie Bookstore Day

Guest: Jason Purcell

CH: Jason Purcell and Matthew Stepanic had big plans for the past year. In 2019, after many months of fundraising and many more months of dreaming, the pair opened Edmonton's Glass Bookshop. And then the pandemic completely rewrote their planned narrative, closing them down along with everyone else last March. But the story that followed turned out to be a page turner in its own right. And today, just over a year later, the co-owners are celebrating independent bookstore day with the launch of a new magazine and what they say is a more robust community of readers than ever. We reached Jason Purcell in Edmonton.

NK: So, Jason, how does it feel to be marking your second independent bookstore day now in a pandemic?

JASON PURCELL: It feels like an achievement, that's for sure. Because we didn't know what was going to happen when the pandemic hit. We were only six months old. Glass Bookshop was in its infancy trying to get some footing in the community. We didn't have a long established customer base or identity that we could lean on. And then we were faced with a situation that no one could have prepared for. So it was scary enough being a brand new business before the pandemic out of the equation. But I mean, it feels like such a triumph and it feels like we've been so supported by our community to have made it to our second independent bookstore day.

NK: Yeah, I can hear the smile and the appreciation in your voice at this point, but it must have been terrifying a few months in all the excitement of opening your doors, only to have to close them. So what was that like?

JP: It was. I mean, it was terrifying. It was myself and my business partner in Matthew Stepanic. It's just the two of us. And we really didn't know what to do. We got into this business because we love books. We're both writers, Matthew is a publisher. But neither of us really have any business experience to speak of. So we were really leaning on our community to help us out. And then when the pandemic hit, nobody in our community knew how to respond to a pandemic. So we were all winging it. But thankfully, we managed to move very quickly to delivery. We closed our doors even before any shutdown notices came our way. And we just started bringing books to people. And at first it was just Matthew and his corgi, Bob, driving around Edmonton, bringing books to people. But it became very evident very quickly that we were receiving way more orders than we could manage with just our small team. So now we have a fleet of delivery drivers, many of whom are local writers and artists themselves, who go out three times a week to get books to people. And I should say that while Bob the corgi doesn't make as many personal deliveries anymore, he's still our delivery mascot and people know and love him.

NK: [Chuckles] That's fantastic. So a quick pivot, it sounds like. And that probably helped you right out of the gate. But, you know, a lot of the boxes on people's doorsteps are from big box retailers, Amazon. So were you worried that that was going to hurt you even further during the pandemic?

JP: That is something that we've come up against even before the pandemic hit, because, of course, big box retailers and Amazon have a history of crowding out independent businesses and bookstores especially. But what I've seen is a renewed commitment to community and what it means to invest in independently owned neighbourhood businesses. I mean, we have seen such tremendous support, even without opening our doors to the public. Our community has expanded tenfold easily. And it's allowed us also to get creative about how it is we show up in the community. So it's not just delivering bookstore door to door, but we're doing things like we just partnered with a local ice cream shop called Kind Ice Cream, where we curated six poems by local poets and they're now stickered on the side of containers for people to enjoy while they eat their ice cream. So we're finding ways to bring literature to the community, aside from just placing an order online and having it delivered. And these are things that I think that big booksellers like the big chains or Amazon can't really offer.

NK: Why do you think there is that devotion and that renewed sense of commitment to independent shops?

JP: I think that the risk has really shown itself that we could really lose a lot of these places that actually do make neighbourhoods vibrant and make neighbourhoods places where you know your neighbours, make them walkable places. These things that have come to mean so much during the pandemic are also things that we were at risk of losing, that maybe we didn't see before. Maybe we were in our everyday lives, which were so defined by convenience and so defined by ease. And when we had convenience and ease taken from us, we saw other options and other ways of organising our lives and our communities. And I think independent businesses, restaurants, even independent art galleries, all these places where people would convene, came to matter because we saw that without that actual material support, they could vanish.

NK: You talked about getting creative, what kinds of things have you come up with to stay connected with readers in general, but also for Independent Bookstore Day?

JP: Well, in general, I mean, we launched a podcast, which I think a lot of really great bookstores have had done already as well. And it's an interview podcast and it features conversations with some of our favourite writers. So we've had people like Vivek Shraya on and Jael Richardson, Dallas Hunt. And it's a wonderful way of replicating some of the magic that happens at in-person in-store events, and it also makes them permanent and shareable across distance and time. So in that way, it's opened up accessibility, which has been so important. And we're putting the finishing touches on a new literary magazine called Glass Paper, and it's going to feature new fiction and non-fiction and poetry and book reviews. And it's another way of building connection and perhaps introducing writers to new readers under the constraints of the pandemic. So our first issue features the likes of Larissa Lai, Christina Battle, and Emily Riddle, and Caitlin Purcell and reviews by people like Jessica Johns, who won the Journey Prize, or Griffin Poetry Prize winner Jordan Abel. So we've got this amazing kind of collection of really brilliant writers and thinkers in a new medium for people. So these are some of the things that we try to do to replicate some of those feelings that you get in a bookstore without actually being in a bookstore.

NK: Any recommendations that you want to leave our listeners with -- titles for the third wave, perhaps?

JP: Oh gosh, yes. So a book that I think was published at just the right time and that I've been getting a lot out of is a book by Beth Pickens called Make Your Art No Matter What. We're all up against a lot these days. And I think this past year has just depleted a lot of our internal resources. And so Beth Pickens is a consultant for artists and art organisers and she also has a master's degree in counselling psychology. So she really gets it. And so in this book, she's drawing from some of her most common, like frequently occurring conversations that she has with her clients. And she offers strategies for us to maintain our creative lives in the face of the realities, to help us do the things that really matter to us on a soul level, which I think is what sees a lot of us through the pandemic.

NK: Jason, I'm thrilled for your success. And here's to an even better post pandemic era for you.

JP: Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

CH: Jason Purcell is the co-owner of Glass Bookshop in Edmonton, that's where we reached them. And tomorrow marks Independent Bookstore Day in Canada.

April 23, 2021 Episode Transcript

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