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The AIH Transcript for March 5, 2018

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello, I'm Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening. I'm Jeff Douglas. This is “As It Happens”.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight:

CO: Worst case scenario. A new report says Thunder Bay police ignored important leads during their investigation into the death of an Indigenous man. And the chief of Rainy River First Nation says that means the police chief should step down.

JD: The exception that approves of the rule. As the head of North America's biggest steel workers union, Leo Gerard is a fan of President Trump's tariffs — as long as they're applied to China and not Canada.

CO: Running for someone else's life. Two years after receiving a transplant, a 55-year-old Ontario man runs his first ever 10K race — as a tribute to the 22-year-old donor who gave him his heart.

JD: Depth perception. After an amateur scuba diver finds a sunken jawbone off the coast of Florida, archaeologists discover a seven thousand year old Indigenous burial ground that is phenomenally well-preserved.

CO: A clear and present danger. We know the glass ceiling is a problem for major companies. But at the new Apple headquarters in California, it's the glass walls and doors that employees keep smashing into.

JD: And Koch and dagger. Our guest offers a pointed reminder about the billionaire whose name graces part of New York's Metropolitan Museum of Art by changing David H. Koch Plaza to Climate Change Denier Plaza.

JD As It Happens, the Monday edition. Radio that offers an embarrassment of richness.

[Music: Theme]

Part one: Thunder Bay report, heart transplant race, Climate Change Denier Plaza

Thunder Bay report

Guest: Robin McGinnis

JD: Within hours of the discovery of Stacy DeBungee's body in Thunder Bay's McIntyre river, police decided the death was not suspicious. Now, a scathing report from the Office of the Independent Police Review Director confirms what Mr. DeBungee's family has said all along: the investigation into his death was badly mishandled. When Mr. Debungee's body was found, an inquest into the deaths of a number of Indigenous youths in the city's waterways had just begun. Robin McGinnis is the chief of Rainy River First Nation, where Mr. DeBungee was from. He wants the Thunder Bay Police Chief, J.P. Levesque, to resign. We reached Chief McGinnis in Kakabeka Falls, Ontario.

CO: Chief McGinnis, what was your reaction to this report when you read it.

ROBIN McGinnis: I was actually surprised at how many deficiencies there were. We had suspicions that there weren't efficiencies, but the lack of investigation at all kind of surprised us.

CO: It's not just lack of investigation, but the conclusion that the police made a decision almost on the spot that there was no foul play, nothing suspicious about the death, even before they knew his identity, even before there had been an autopsy.

RM: Well, that's par for the course, right? That is business as usual. I mean I thought there would been some kind of follow up after, but nothing happened. Nobody was interviewed. They didn't even canvass people in the area or businesses in the area. They just looked for external cameras on buildings that once they didn't find that that was about as much canvassing as they did.

CO: Can you tell us that the leads that the report indicates that were never followed?

RM: They didn't interview any of his family. They didn't interview the people who were there the night of. There was somebody had come in and said that they had gotten a confession, and they didn't follow up on that either. And also like us and the family together we hired a private investigator, and they went in with the brother of Stacy DeBungee, Brad DeBungee, to try to provide some information that they had found. And they were dismissed. They didn't want any help. And actually, they seemed offended that Brad would go in there with an investigator to give them some leads to follow up on.

CO: The leads that regard Stacey Debungee and what happened that night or the hours before his body was found was that there had been an altercation on the river bank that nobody had followed up on…

RM: Yes, somebody had seen that Stacy was having a physical altercation with somebody, but that wasn't followed up on. So that was definitely one of them. But I mean like we kind of had an idea the type of investigations they were doing on Indigenous people in Thunder Bay because there was an inquest there that had started two weeks prior.

CO: What do you make of that? Given that this investigation into Stacy DeBungee’s death was in the middle of an inquest into the deaths of young people — students who had died in the river — and that these investigations had been so inconclusive or not even done at all. Within that context, what do you make of the fact that the police didn't think to follow through on this?

RM: Well in that context, I think it goes to show the culture and the mindset of the Thunder Bay police service. They weren't taking the inquest seriously, and they were going to do things they've always done. It's almost shameless like they realize these things are happening and they don't care.

CO: Just want to point out some of the other evidence that there was someone's identification was found at the scene, that witness was never contacted. There was a deathbed confession by a woman who claimed she actually pushed Stacey DeBungee into the river, that wasn't followed up on. She is no longer with us to give us information. All of these things were in the report that you hired — or the family hired — this Toronto police investigator to do an independent investigation. They found the same thing, is that right?

RM: Yes. During our investigation that we've done I mean we've talked to people who have done cultural sensitivity training with the police service, and they were laughed out of the room. So I mean that's the mindset of the police service, right? And so you're not going to change anything until you change leadership. And I'm not saying that want to change Chief Levesque it's going to get better overnight. But until you change the person in charge, then there is no possibility of change.

CO: This independent report states it can only be reasonably inferred that this premature conclusion that there was no foul play can only be concluded that it was drawn because the deceased was Indigenous. What rule did racism play in this investigation?

RM: Well, Stacey DeBungee is Indigenous, right? And I think that just because there was another dead Indigenous man in the river, it seemed like they were shuffling it off so they could hurry up and make sure they made it home in time for supper. It’s a lack of respect for the person who passed away and a lack of respect for his family. And to do their due diligence and find out what happened. But it has to start from the top down. Like there is an inquest going on, and the chief of police doesn't tell his officers I need you guys to tighten up; I need you guys to do everything by the book. But that obviously didn't happen. So I'm hoping with new leadership that there's going to be a mindset change where the people who do pass away there's going to be a proper investigation to find out what happened.

CO: This independent police review concludes the deficiencies in the investigation were so substantial and deviated so significantly from what was required as to provide reasonable and probable grounds to support an allegation of neglect of duty. Would you like to see more than just the chief resign? What do you think should happen to the investigating officers?

RM: The facts of this report are facts. That's not up for argument. When they do go for their hearing, this report should show they should be guilty of the charges that are brought against them. With this report, I don't think they are fit to be police officers in my opinion. And I’m coming from the mindset of my band member who is the brother who you know had to suffer, and his grief was stunted because there was no sign of closure or the fact that his brother was just treated as just another drunken Indian that fell in the river.

CO: Is this investigation — this report — does it help Brad DeBungee deal a bit better with the death of his brother?

RM: Well, I think it's mixed emotions for him. We knew they didn't do their job, but we didn't know to what extent the disrespect that they showed Stacey when they were investigating his death. So I think this is a vindication — this report that he was right and correct when he came to us and said they're not doing things the right way, can you help me out? He feels vindicated that way. But it's also very painful because he knows how to be treated with death in the first place. So I think it's mixed for him.

CO: Chief McGuinnis, I really appreciate you telling us this today. And we'll be following this story closely. Thank you so much.

RM: Thank you very much.

CO: Bye bye.

RM: Bye bye.

JD: Robin McGinnis is the chief of Rainy River First Nation. We reached him in Kakabeka Falls, Ontario. The CBC did contact the Thunder Bay police about the Office of the Independent Police Review Director's report. The department said it cannot comment at this time.

Heart Transplant Race

Guest: John Dickhout

JD: Adam Prashaw was just twenty-two when he died of a seizure. His heart lives on though, and it's racing. On Saturday, 55-year-old John Dickhout ran his first-ever 10K. And he did it with his new heart. And Adam Prashaw's family was there to cheer him on as he honoured the memory of his donor. We reached John Dickhout today in Toronto.

CO: John, how you feeling after the race?

JOHN DICKHOUT: Much better today than I did moments after.

CO: What was so special about this race for you?

JD: Well, for a lot of reasons. It was actually the last item on the list of post-transplant “to do's” that I had made a week after I was listed for my heart transplant. So checking that off the list was an important thing. But what made it very, very important and special for me was since my transplant, I've connected with my donor's family. And we've become really an extended family and good friends. And they're from the Ottawa area, so both mom and dad were there cheering me on for the race. And ar the finish line, which made it very, very special.

CO: This is Adam Prashaw whose heart you have?

JD: Yes.

CO: How old was he when he died?

JD: Twenty-two.

CO: And when did you connect with the family — the Prashaw family?

JD: My transplant was January 25^th of 2016. A couple of weeks after being released from the hospital, I wrote a letter of thanks. And on April 30^th I believe, I received a return letter also anonymous. But there were a few clues that led me to search engines, and I found an obituary that I was quite sure was that of my donor. And so I reached out to them anonymously, and they agreed that they'd be interested in connecting, and it's been a pretty whirlwind story since.

CO: What have you learned about the man whose heart you have?

JD: Oh man, it's such an incredibly rich story, and he lived quite a life in twenty-two years. It's probably the hardest thing to talk about because of what he and his family and their decision has come to mean to me and mine. But he was just a young, energetic kid who was living life to the fullest. But it was a very difficult life: he suffered with epilepsy and had a couple of brain surgeries that he took on like everything else. He drowned in a hot tub. Friends had left him for ten minutes, and he had had been seizure-free for some time. And they thought perhaps he had kicked it, and unfortunately, a seizure took his life.

CO: I understand he had signed a donor card, and that was important to the family that the honour his desires — his will.

JD: Yeah, I think it was the mum who knew from the beginning. She was there when Adam first received his license in the mail, and there's this box that said something about organ donation, and so he asked her about it. When she explained what it was all about I guess he was without hesitation. He said, of course; I want to help anybody I could if it came to that. So having had that discussion, there was little hesitation on this family's part thankfully when it came time that his organs were needed.

CO: And when did you come to need a new heart?

JD: After three or four years of living with some difficulty, my wife and I were actually living in the Philippines. And out of nowhere frankly I was pretty fit healthy, I looked after myself, they said I've had a massive heart attack. Within a couple of weeks, I had crashed a couple of times. My wife had to give me CPR to get me back. I had a defibrillator implanted further than a pacemaker, we got back to Canada, and things just continued to spiral out of control. So three years later, in October-November I guess of 2015, the decision was made that I need a transplant or you know I won’t last much longer. So I was very fortunate in that I was only actually on the list for two months when a match was found. There are many people that wait much longer.

CO: Is it fair to say that Adams saved your life?

JD: Oh absolutely, it is, and gave me so much of my life and more back. A new lease on life has come and a new, reinvigorated attitude. I've always been a pretty positive guy, and try my best to live life to the fullest, but never more so than now since the transplant. And in part to honour Adam's memory and his family's decision. I’m living for him and his family.

CO: So you decided to do this race. What did you doctors think of that?

JD: Well, I made sure to get approval first. You know they'd been watching my progress, of course. And they know I'm pretty good about training appropriate, eating healthily and doing all the right things. So from a medical standpoint, all was good. The main thing was just to make sure that I warmed up properly and that I didn't push myself too far. That I Listened to my body, which I did. They were they were quite happy that I tested my limits as long as I didn't test them too far.

CO: And how was your heart during that 10K race?

JD: It was honestly fantastic. It was the least sore part of my body. It was my legs and lungs and everything that were feeling it a lot more than the heart. I had kind of a in the back of my mind a bit of a really what I know was a stretch goal: to complete the race and 60 Minutes. I'm realizing now it was a pretty aggressive goal considering I'd never run a 10K race before, but I finished in just under 63 minutes, which was pretty good. And no ill effects at all. I mean I recovered after the race remarkably quickly, again except for the sore legs, but the heart was great.

CO: The rest of you 55-year-old body was feeling it.

JD: That’s right! The 20-something bit was fine.

CO: And Adam’s family was there?

JD: Yes, they were. Yeah, they were waiting at the finish line. There were a lot of hugs and tears I must say.

CO: What was that moment like?

JD: You know it's been so special all along. That was a very, very special moment. I mean I was pretty exhausted, but there's been so many of those moments as we've come to know each other and discover each other's stories. And even the stories of that weekend — convergent and divergent in its emotion and stuff, certainly — you know when I got my life back, and they lost such an important one. But yeah, it was pretty special to have them there. And it's humbling frankly to see their gratitude for what I'm doing to try to honour their son in any way I can. When really all that immense gratitude is from me and my family for what they've given me.

CO: It sounds like you've got a great heart.

JD: I sure do.

CO: John, congratulations on your run.

JD: Thank you so much.

CO: Thank you. Bye bye.

JD: Bye

JEFF DOUGLAS: John Dickhout raced his first 10k this past weekend to honour 22-year-old Adam Prashaw, the donor of his new heart. We reached Mr. Dickhout in Toronto. And we have more on this story, including some photographs from the race, and photographs of Adam on our website: www.cbc.ca.

Climate Change Denier Plaza

Guest: Jerry Saltz

JD: Jerry Saltz is a celebrated New York Magazine art critic. He has spent nearly three decades going up and down the steps at New York's Metropolitan Museum of Art. And every time he walked by David H. Koch Plaza to get to the Met, something didn't sit quite right with him. And so last week, Mr. Saltz took matters into his own hands — and performed what's been described as an act of guerrilla resistance: he changed the name of "David H. Koch Plaza" to "Climate Change Denier Plaza". We reached Jerry Saltz in New York.

CO: Jerry, when did the idea for this act of resistance at David H. Koch Plaza first enter your mind?

JERRY SALTZ: I'm not really sure, Carol. I think that every time I go to the Met — my favorite museum in the world — just seeing his name on these fountains annoys me. And somehow I think that I saw a picture of them and really I thought I've got to change this. It's not the David H Koch Plaza. It's the Metropolitan Museum of Art Plaza.

CO: Just tell us exactly what you did? You left the museum, you went into the plaza and tell us just take us blow by blow through your act?

JS: OK, I saw the beautiful new show of Aztec gold for two hours loving it. And then walked out to the plaza away from the fountains, and I unrolled this little cigar-sized thing and pulled off the other side of the double stick tape walked up to the fountain, kneeled down and smoothed over exactly where the David H. Koch sign was. And people started applauding and cheering. And I stood up, took a picture of it and bunches of people started taking pictures of it. And then I was terrified and walked away and got on the subway and went back downtown.

CO: I've seen a picture of it. You took a great deal of effort to make it look like the lettering that would be on this granite, and you matched it. What did the museum think of your act?

JS: Well, I'm not really sure. I know it was there for a couple of hours because pictures kept appearing, and I could see on Twitter. But then a friend of mine went to the same show the next morning, and the sign was gone. I'm an art critic. I'm in love with this museum. I understand it's hard for museums to get by, and they have to have money. But I don't want them to sell their name. That's really my protest. It isn't because I don't think museums should accept money. Art and money have always slept together. But had the Met said you're banned from coming back to this museum, I had already decided I was going to go the next day and lie prostrate on the top step, and beg the Met to take me back. I can't live if living is without the Met.

CO: Has there been any response? Have they complained to you or suggested you might not be allowed back into the Metropolitan Museum?

JS: So far, thank God, no. However, some right-wing publications said I should do, quote, “hard time in jail for littering.” And that's always fun.

CO: I just have to say though I mean you're 67, you don't look like the sort of person who does gorilla style protests on the streets. What was going through your mind while you were doing it? This seems a bit uncharacteristic.

JS: You're telling me. I haven't done this since I left my high school in the middle of high school class and went to the 1968 Chicago Democratic Convention. The feelings I had was a strange mixture of I was terrified, really scared. I wasn't scared until I was smoothing it over and I think I had hysterical blindness. I really did not know what was going on around me. I was just lost. It was only in these few seconds during it that I kind of fell apart.

CO: You mentioned how you understand that money and museums go together. But I mean it wasn't just that David H. Koch didn't just give some money, he gave all of the money for this plaza — 65 million dollars for it. I mean it’s a fair chunk of change. Doesn't he deserve to have his name on the plaza?

JS: Listen, it's Yankee Stadium. Not Steinbrenner stadium. If you want to call it the Chick-fil-A Museum of Modern Art I'm against that. However, David H. Koch, it's fantastic that he gives his money to art. I am glad. But like the generations upon generations of generous, wealthy people who have given money to the Met, let's not sell our name. The Metropolitan Museum of Art plaza just for two fountains, that doesn't play with me.

CO: Have you heard any response from the Koch family — from the Koch Brothers — or denying that they are climate change deniers?

JS: Well, you can't deny that they deny climate change because that's on the record. So no, I haven't heard from them. And I would only say to anyone upset that I have done this silly protest I love and respect the Met enough to take this very seriously. Even though most people would say what do you care? He's a rich man. He gave you two fountains and just shut up and dribble, you know? Well, I don't work that way. I love art, and I'm not going to just shut up and dribble.

CO: Jerry, it's good to talk to you. Thank you.

JS: Keep up the great work.

CO: Thank you. Bye bye.

JS OK.

JD: Jerry Saltz is the Senior Art Critic at the New York Magazine. We reached him in New York City. And we did request a response from the Met. But museum officials declined to comment.

Apple HQ

JD: Dateline: Cupertino, California.

[Music: Dateline theme]

JD: For birds, we put up masking tape or silhouettes of predatory birds. So what will protect the humans who work for Apple from smashing into glass? Have they tried masking tape? Or perhaps a life-size decal of, say, an angry middle manager? Apple Park — Apple's giant, ultramodern new headquarters in Cupertino — is clearly remarkable. It's also remarkably clear, because of the huge sheets of curved glass that serve as walls and doors all over the campus. As Apple's chief design officer, Jonathan Ive, told Stephen Levy of Wired magazine last year, quote, "While it is a technical marvel to make glass at this scale, that's not the achievement. The achievement is to make a building where so many people can connect and collaborate and walk and talk." Unquote. Well, there's no word on how the connection, collaboration and talking are going. The walking part, however, may not have been quite achieved. According to The San Francisco Chronicle, a Cupertino building inspector flagged possible problems with the glass last year, before staff started moving into Apple Park in January. Now, a Chronicle investigation has revealed at least three incidents in which 911 was called about injuries to Apple employees who walked into the giant panes of glass. In each case, the employee suffered a head injury. In one case, the employee was left, quote, "disoriented." I guess even when you don't use Microsoft products, you can still have a problem with windows! But I shouldn't make jokes, even when they're hilarious. Apple employees are getting hurt. And they have aesthetics to blame for their anesthetics.

Part two: Trump tariffs, Florida burial site

Trump tariffs

Guest: Leo Gerard

JD: Anyone who thought Donald Trump might go easy on Canada can think again. Canadian businesses and politicians have been scrambling to lobby the White House for an exemption to the tariffs Mr. Trump announced last week for steel and aluminum imports. This morning, however, President Trump slapped down the suggestion.

SOUNDCLIP

DONALD TRUMP: No, we're not backing down. Mexico, we've had a very bad deal with Mexico; a very bad deal with Canada. It’s called NAFTA. Our factories have left our country; our jobs have left our country. For many years, NAFTA's been a disaster. We are renegotiating NAFTA, as I said I would. And if we don't make a deal, I'll terminate NAFTA. But if I do make a deal, which is fair to the workers and to the American people that would be I would imagine one of the points it will negotiate. It will be tariffs on steel from Canada and from Mexico. So we'll see what happens. But right now 100 per cent but it could be a part of NAFTA. And I understand I just got a call from the people who are right now in Mexico City negotiating NAFAT. Mexico and really Canada want to talk about it. But if they aren't going to make a fair NAFTA deal, we're just going to leave it this way. People have to understand our country on trade has been ripped off by virtually every country in the world whether it's friend or enemy — everybody.

JD: That was US President Donald Trump in Washington this morning. As Mr. Trump mentioned, his NAFTA representative was meeting with Canada's Foreign Affairs Chrystia Freeland and their Mexican colleagues today. At the Press conference afterwards, Minister Freeland was asked how she was responding to President Trump's tariff threats.

SOUNDCLIP

CHRYSTIA FREELAND: I made a very strong case for a Canadian exclusion, including the fact, which is a significant one that we have Leo Gerard of the Steelworkers coming out recently in favour of Canada being excluded.

REPORTER: You guys are just going to sort of ignore this link that Trump is making. This ultimatum he’s giving you?

CF: I think we have been very clear that we take very seriously the potential action by the US. And I do want to take this opportunity say to Canadians, Canadian workers, to Canadian industry that our government stands with you. And in the event that action is actually taken, the government of Canada will take responsive measures.

JD: That was Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia Freeland in Mexico City this afternoon. This all puts the man Minister Freeland mentioned in there in an awkward situation. Leo Gerard is a native of Sudbury, and the President of the United Steelworkers Union. We reached him in Pittsburgh.

CO: Mr. Gerard, you just heard from US president and Canada's Foreign Affairs Minister what they had to say. What chances do we have at this point of avoiding a trade war?

LEO GERARD: Well look, I'm not prepared to use that term trade war. Let me pick up on a couple of things that Trump said, and then some facts. America has had a really, really difficult time with huge trade deficits, particularly with China — almost four hundred billion dollars a year in durable goods. So if you do that over 20 years, those have been consistent or slightly higher on an annual basis. America has had a huge trade deficit with Mexico. America has had a huge trade deficit with South Korea. America has a trade surplus with Canada. Somebody ought to tell the president that.

CO: But Donald Trump is now trying to tie these tariffs NAFTA. And he is determined to apply these tariffs to Canada. I know you're speaking with people in the administration. Are you getting any indication that he might change his mind about that?

LG: Look, reality has to set in. NAFTA or No NAFTA, Canada is not the enemy. Canada has a trade surplus with the United States. Mexico has a huge trade deficit. South Korea has a huge trade deficit. China has an unbelievably huge deficit. So when they start to have discussions you've got to put in place that over the last four years, America shipped more steel to Canada than Canada did to the US. So talking about tariffs on that doesn't make sense. And we continue to make our case to the administration to the allies that we have and we have many allies in the US Congress who understand that Canada is not a cheater, not an unfair trader. But they don't quite realize that the United States has a trade surplus with Canada. So it's pretty hard for Trump to say that Canada hasn't been treating them fairly when they have a trade surplus. He's concerned about softwood lumber, and he doesn't know anything about it. The softwood lumber industry in Canada has made sacrifices to the American industry. Right now the American industry is booming because of the floods and fires and whatnot.

CO: You may be trying to get your message to the right people, including Wilbur Ross. But here's what Wilbur Ross — the US Commerce Secretary — had to say to NBC's “Meet the Press” yesterday.

SOUNDCLIP

WILBUR ROSS: Whatever his final decision is is what will happen.

HOST: Meaning this isn't a done deal?

WR: I didn't say that. I just said what he has said he has said. If he says something different it’ll be something different. I have no reason to think it's going to change.

HOST: What does this mean? You just said well, he may say this and he may say that.

WR: No, I didn't say that. I said he is the one who makes the decision. He has made a decision at this point twenty-five and ten. If he for some reason should change his mind then it will change.

CO: There he is. The Commerce Secretary, Wibur Ross, saying it's all up to Donald Trump.

LG: Look at it, it could be all up to Donald Trump, but the facts have to set in. When they make blanket statements, and you've got to go back and review the facts, how do you put a 25 per cent tariff when you've got a surplus? You can't do it. And then by the way on another point, Canada and Australia and Great Britain Canada and the U.S. for the longest period have a strategic alliance on NATO where Canada's domestic production of aluminum and steel is considered an integral part of the American defense industry, as now as Australia and Great Britain. So the president made those comments, and he made them I think in a way that knows that the American steel and aluminium industry have been under attack. But it has not been under attack by Canada. It's been under attack by China, South Korea, Vietnam, Japan, India, Brazil Russia. And our view is that he should go after the evildoers — the countries that don't play by the rules. And those countries that play by the rules should be left to do the trade the way they've been doing it. And they've been doing it in between Canada, United States and basically a balanced agenda.

CO: How popular are these tariffs with your members in America — in the United States?

LG: Well look, the fact that someone is standing up and trying to take the aluminum industry. China went from two aluminium smelters to 30, and America went from 15 to four. Canada is not the enemy Canada. Canada's trade in aluminium has been a necessary part of the American defense industry. China is the enemy. Because of China and Russia I should say because of their behaviour. Close to 11 smelters in the last ten years has closed well China has built 32 new smelters.

CO: How do you juggle the fact that your American members are quite happy about these tariffs, and you have 200,000 Canadian members who are probably not happy?

LG: Let me be real straight with you. Our American members know they belong to an international union. And our American members know that Canada is not the enemy. Our American members want the United States to go after China, to go after South Korea, to go after Vietnam, go after Russia, go after the countries that cheat. Our members know that. We just had an event last weekend, and I made the case, and there was a standing ovation. So don't put words in my mouth, and don't let the know-nothings about it influence the direction of discussion. Our members are happy that something is going to be done, but they know that Canada is not the enemy because lots of their steel goes to Canada.

CO: You think that that's the message that Donald Trump has to get. How do you get that across to him?

LG: Do you think I'm a magician? You know I can't speak for the president. What I can do though is make sure that the people who are going to sit down and discuss this at some point, rational minds are going to set in because Canada is not the enemy on this stuff.

CO: We’ll leave it there. Mr. Gerard, thank you.

LG: You are more than welcome.

JD: Leo Gerard is the President of the United Steelworkers. We reached him in Pittsburgh.

Russian spy

JD: The city of Salisbury, England, is known for its history. It's has a 13th-century cathedral, and it's just a few miles down the road from Stonehenge. But the latest historical event to take place there may be more worthy of a spy novel than a history book. For the past seven years, Salisbury has been the home of Sergei Skripal, a former Russian spy. In 2006, Mr. Skripal was convicted of selling state secrets to British intelligence. He was sentenced to 13 years in prison. In 2010, however, he was released as part of a prisoner swap. And he's been living a quiet life in the UK ever since. Until Sunday that is — when Mr. Skirpal and a woman were found unconscious. Authorities say they were exposed to an unknown substance. They are both now in hospital, in critical condition. Wiltshire Police spoke to the media earlier today.

SOUNDCLIP

POLICE SPOKEPERSON: Because we are still at the very early stages of the investigation, we are unable to ascertain whether or not a crime has taken place. A major incident, however, has been declared today, and a multiagency response has been coordinated. Alongside our partner agencies, we are conducting some extensive inquiries to determine exactly what led to these two people falling unconscious and to clarify whether or not any criminal activity has taken place.

JD: Mr. Skirpal, who is in his 60s, and the woman, in her 30s, were found on a bench at a Salisbury shopping mall. Eyewitness Freya Church spoke to the BBC.

SOUNDCLIP

FREYA CHURCH: I’d just finished training at my job. I walked up this Path here. And on the right-hand side on the bench, there was a couple, an older guy and a younger girl. She was sort of lent in on him; it looked like she passed out maybe. He was doing some strange hand movements looking up to the sky. I felt anxious. I felt like I should step in. But, to be honest, they looked so out of it that I thought even if I did step in, I wasn't sure how I could help. So yeah, I just left them. But it looked like they'd been taking something quite strong.

JD: It isn’t yet known whether foul play was involved. But after the news came out, observers quickly drew parallels to the story of Alexander Litvinenko, another former Russian spy who received asylum in England, after fleeing prosecution in Russia. He was hospitalized in 2006 after being poisoned. A public inquiry later concluded that his murder was likely ordered by Russian President Vladimir Putin.

Florida burial site

Guest: Ryan Duggins

JD: It’s pretty rare for amateur scuba divers to encounter sunken treasure, especially if they're not wreck-diving. But what one diver found in the Gulf of Mexico is definitely a treasure, certainly in the archaeological sense. What the diver found was human remains. And those remains were part of a previously unknown Native American burial site, believed to be more than 7,000 years old. Ryan Duggins is an underwater archaeologist with the state of Florida. We reached Mr. Duggins in Tallahassee.

CO: Mr. Duggins, what did you think when you first heard this diver had found human remains in the Gulf of Mexico?

RYAN DUGGINS: The thought that I had was that it must have eroded out from a nearby site; that it couldn't have come from the sea floor.

CO: And when did you realize what you had discovered or what they had discovered?

RD: It was the first the first day on site. We went out with the informant, Joshua Frank, and he took us to the location. And we hit the bottom, and I looked over to my left, and there was human bone right there on the sea floor. We swam a little bit further and found an exposed peat bed on the sea floor that had a large number of wooden stakes actually protruding from the sea floor, and among them quite a lot of clearly human skeletal material.

CO: This was a burial site. So there's indication this isn't just where bodies were dumped or ended up. This is where it looks like as though this was created.

RD: Exactly, exactly. We have archaeological evidence here in Florida of middle archaic populations. So people who were living here seven to seven-and-a-half thousand years ago, who would actually inter the dead on the bottom of a freshwater pond. And then put a series of sharpened wooden stakes or branches around the body to help kind of keep it firmly in place.

CO: if this was a freshwater pond that was the burial site, how did it end up off the coast in the in the Gulf of Mexico?

RD: Well, that's a really good question. We know that the Gulf sea levels have changed dramatically. In fact, Florida used to be about twice as wide as it is today. And then over the past twenty-one thousand years, sea levels have been slowly, slowly creeping up as the polar ice caps melted. And when the site was being used by Florida's Indigenous people some 7,200 years ago, sea levels were about four to five miles further out than they are today.

CO: And the reason why it was discovered this is this is a diver who was looking for sharks teeth just not far off the coast — about 300 meters or 275 meters. And this is where it was discovered. So how chancy is that? How sort of serendipitous is that?

RD: It is. It really is. This is off the coast of Venice, Florida, and in the Gulf of Mexico. And Venice is known throughout the state and throughout the Southeast as really the hot spot to go and to look for fossilized shark teeth — Megalodon teeth. And there's many, many beds of sharks teeth, and other fossilized material off the coast. And it just so happened that one of those divers — while looking for sharks’ teeth — ended up finding this instead. And luckily, they came forward to my office and said hey, I think I found something. Why don't you take a look?

CO: And what do you know about that society — the tribe from which these people came? What do you know about how they lived or who they are?

RD: Well, that's again, one of one of the big questions. We know that we have a similar burial practice at roughly the same time at another site on the east coast of Florida called Windover. And that site was investigated in the ‘80s. Again, a very similar burial practice: freshwater pond with burials held in place with stakes. But that site was in and upland setting, and it still is today. So it was not covered by sea levels. And so you know having another similar site on the opposite coast of Florida certainly does pose interesting questions. Was this one population? Are they different populations? It's certainly very similar cultural practice. And it I think it certainly can tell us or help illustrate a lot about life ways in Florida over 7000 years ago.

CO: How are you going to satisfy I'm sure a great curiosity about this site, who's there and what else might be there? How will you do that and be respectful of those remains?

RD: Well, quite honestly, our primary concern right now and the focus of the work for the past year on the site has really been to get our heads around you know how big is it? What is the spatial extent? And how deep is the site? That's the challenge we're up against because it is a site that is at threat from any number of different sources.

CO: Are there are those who are saying you should just leave it alone?

RD: Well, it's a it's a difficult situation. If this site was in a state park in the middle of the state, we could build a fence around it. But with this being in the Gulf of Mexico, it's a lot harder for us to do that. There's not really a mechanism for let's just put a put a fence around the site. And so what we've tried to do — and what we're in the process of actually doing now — is engaging with the broader community and trying to educate those that live along the beach as well as divers in the area really let them know about the site, convey the significance of the site and also how sensitive it is. To let people know that that this is something that needs to be respected. And something that needs to be left alone.

CO: Wow! We'll leave it there. Mr. Duggins I appreciate you telling us this story. Thank you.

RD: Thank you.

JD: Ryan Duggins is an Underwater Archaeology Supervisor with the Florida Bureau of Archaeological Research. We reached him in Tallahassee. If you would like to see a video that the divers shot while underwater, go to our website.

Listener Response: Bridget’s beard

JD: It was perhaps a one-sided take on a two-sideburned story. Last week, a human being from the zoo in Oklahoma City gave us her take on the unusual case of Bridget. Bridget is an 18-year-old lioness. She is the matriarch of that zoo's pride of lions. And last year, for reasons that elude us, Bridget started sprouting a lush, sort of muttonchopy-beardy type thing. Well, listeners may not know why Bridget has sprouted a beard. But they did reveal a certain familiarity with the idea of older women and facial hair. Ted Judd of Walla Walla, Washington wrote, quote, "I have attended many reunions during my tenure and have silently observed that occasionally one of the grandmothers or great-aunts will begin to show a hint of chin and neck hair which had not been present when younger." Unquote. And D.J. Leaman of Fernie, British Columbia wrote,"I may be joined by other aging hominid females in my envy, plus joyful celebration, of the apparent OK-ness of Bridget producing abundant facial hair. Here we are, our sorry species, plucking and lasering, waxing, and in other ways epilating our potentially magnificent old-lady manes, beards, moustaches. Because why?" Unquote. Thank you to everyone who shared their observations. You can contact us whenever you want on Twitter and Facebook; both those accounts: cbcasithappens. You can email us: aih@cbc.ca. Or call us — that is our favourite: 416-205-5687.

Part three: Gupta plane, Hamilton vandalism

JD: Today, a disturbing update on the Toronto police investigation into alleged serial killer Bruce McArthur. At a press conference this morning, homicide detective Hank Idsinga released a photograph of a man believed to be a seventh victim of Mr. McArthur. Mr. McArthur has already been charged with six counts of first-degree murder. Police would not say how they obtained the photograph of the deceased man. Here's part of what Detective Idsinga had to say earlier today.

SOUNDCLIP

HANK IDSINGA: The release of evidence by the Toronto Police Service has to strike a balance between the public interest and the fair court process due to Mr. McArthur. We solve many crimes through the release of evidence to the media. Today, we're going to be releasing a photograph of an individual who we believe is an unidentified victim of Mr. McArthur. We have utilized numerous investigative techniques to identify this individual, and so far have been unsuccessful. We have also shown the picture to numerous contacts within the community, and have been unsuccessful. I do not want to release this picture, and am doing so as a last resort. For those who are watching on our livestream, I would suggest this photo may be disturbing to some viewers. I would also ask the media to be mindful. That by broadcasting this picture, a family member or friend not realizing that their loved one is deceased, may come to that realization from the moment they view the picture. I would ask anyone who recognizes the individual in this picture to contact us as soon as possible. We need to we need to put a name to this face. And bring closure to this man's loved ones.

REPORTER: How unordinary is it for you to put a photo like this up at a news conference?

HI: I've never done this. And I do it with great hesitation. It's obviously a key piece of evidence that we have that we're releasing. But we do feel that by releasing it, hopefully, we can identify him and close off that area of investigation.

JD: That’s Toronto Police Services homicide detective Hank Idsinga, providing an update on the police investigation into alleged serial killer Bruce McArthur earlier today. For more on this story, go to: www.cbc.ca/news.

Gupta plane

Guest: Karyn Keenan

JD: Have you seen my plane? I mean, it's not really my plane, not exactly. The 50-million-dollar Bombardier jet was bought with money that mostly came from a Canadian government-owned bank. Export Development Canada lent the money to South Africa's Gupta family. The problem is that after its leading members were charged with corruption in the scandal that drove Jacob Zuma from power, the family took off with the plane. Export Development Canada has sent out repo men, but the Guptas have turned off the plane's locator devices. And so, so far, the repo men aren't having any luck. Karyn Keenan is the director of Above Ground, that is a development non-profit with a keen interest in both Bombardier and the bank. We reached Ms. Keenan in Ottawa.

CO: And they have argued that it may be used to escape justice or for some unlawful means. And that is the application to the South African court seeking permission to ground the jet.

KK: Exactly. And what my organization and others are asking is why didn't they think of that before they granted the loan? It seems that there was sufficient information in the public domain to come to the reasonable conclusion that the Guptas might use this jet for those purposes back then. So it seems ironic that this is a concern only now that the Guptas have flown the coop in the jet.

CO: And does it seem that the jet is like their getaway car?

KK: Exactly, they're fugitives from the law, and this appears to be how they're escaping the law. I don't know that anyone can say definitively that they're on the jet, but they went missing, and the jet went missing. So I think it's a reasonable conclusion.

CO: And they've turned off the locator, so they don't want anybody to know where it is.

KK: Exactly, exactly.

CO: How did we end up financing this jet to the tune of 41 million dollars?

KK: So Export Development Canada its purpose is to promote Canadian exports and Canadian investments. And one of the ways it does that is by providing financing to third parties — non-Canadians — so that they will procure Canadian goods and services. And that's what happened in this case. The Guptas wanted to buy a jet from Canadian company Bombardier. They sought out financing for it from Export Development Canada. Export Development Canada checked them out. Apparently, cleared them, gave them the loan and then they used the loan to buy the Bombardier jet. So that's the role of the Canadian Crown Corporation. And now that the group has had defaulted on their loan, and have flown the coop as we said. EDC wants to recoup that asset, which basically it owns.

CO: Do we understand that the Guptas assets have been frozen because they are fugitives from justice. And the sum of their wealth may have come from the reasons why they're being charged.

KK: That's right. So their assets have been frozen. Also going back to around the time interestingly that EDC approved this loan for the Guptas, major international commercial banks were already closing down their bank accounts and turning them away as potential clients. So as early as 2014, that was already happening. Of course, it’s now happening in earnest now that the Zuma government has fallen, and the new government is taking on the systemic corruption, and going after the Guptas. But even several years ago, there were major commercial enterprises that were sufficiently worried about them, and their involvement in corrupt practices and the possibility of them not being around to make good on their obligations to deny them those services.

CO: So Export Development Canada should have known that this was a possibility or that this was not a sound investment partner at that time?

KK: Well, that's what I think. And I think that’s what it looked like those other financial institutions that were turning the Guptas down also think. There was, as I said earlier, a lot of information about the Guptas in the public domain far before EDC started to consider this loan. I mean just to give you a sense their relationship to the Zuma government was so close that they were collectively referred to as the “Zuptas” in South Africa. So that relationship was well-known, it was well documented by the press. There had been an inquiry — a government inquiry — into them prior to EDC approving the loan where they were found to have used that close relationship with government agencies, and particularly Zuma, they had used it inappropriately for their personal benefit. So again, there was a great deal of information that should have been ringing warning bells for EDC.

CO: But this loan wasn't to help the Guptas, was it? It was to help Bombardier. How much business has EDC done with Bombarider in the past?

KK: Well, as a matter of fact, Bombardier is one of EDC’s most important clients. So just to give you a sense, in 2015, EDC provided as much as five billion dollars in financing to that company, which is extraordinary. I mean my organisation monitors the EDC's portfolio, we always keep an eye on who they're financing; we're interested in that. And so I've been watching their transaction reports for a long time. And I can tell you that it's quite extraordinary for a single company to receive that level of financing.

CO: So to provide 41 million dollars to the South African Guptas to buy a plane from Bombardier, that's kind of chump change for the EDC, isn't it?

KK: Exactly. Relatively speaking, yes.

CO: But we're on the hook. Canadian tax payers are going to have to pay for it.

KK: Well, we're on the hook because EDC’s operations are ultimately backed by the government of Canada, which is us. But EDC, as a matter of fact, is a lucrative operation. And so yes they're going to lose on this particular transaction, but in the end, they won't be coming to Treasury or to the Canadian people to ask us to make good on that loan because they have the resources internally to compensate for that.

CO: But they have to eat it, which is in affect us eating it, right?

KK: Absolutely. It's a public corporation wholly owned by you and me — by the people of Canada — and we back it. If it got into trouble, if it was unable to recoup lost assets like this, or if it made a series of bad deals that went south. Yes, we ultimately are on the hook.

CO: Now, this aircraft they know what it looks like they know its license plate is ZSOAK; there's all kinds of ways to identify this. How difficult or how easy is it to hide an airplane?

KK: Well, Carol, I don't know. I don't move in those circles of people who ride around in luxury jets. I mean they were moving around quite a bit before they destroyed the locator, so people were watching, and they were hopping around from Dubai to India to other locations. They seem to know that people are looking for them.

CO: And the police in South Africa are offering a fairly substantial reward for any information that leads to the arrest of the Guptas. Is it possible we'll see our plane again?

KK: Maybe we'll find the plane. Maybe we’ll bring the plane home.

CO: Karyn, thank you. It’s good to talk to you. Thanks.

KK: Thank you very much.

CO: Bye bye.

KK: Bye bye.

JD: Karyn Keenan is the director of the NGO Above Ground. We reached her in Ottawa.

From our Archives: Roger Bannister obit

JD: It took Sir Roger Bannister three minutes and fifty-nine-point-four seconds to achieve "one of man's hitherto unattainable goals." That's what the New York Times called it in 1954, when Sir Bannister ran a mile in under four minutes. He was the first athlete ever to do so. Sir Roger Bannister died on Saturday. He was 88-years-old. The same year he broke the record, Sir Roger retired from competitive running to focus on medicine. He went on to have a long career as a neurologist. He spoke to As It Happens in 1979. Here's part of what he had to say about the lead-up to his fateful run, this is from from our archives.

SOUNDCLIP

ROGER BANNISTER: It was a psychological barrier more than a physical barrier. Four even laps in one minute each, giving a four-minute mile head seemingly been impossible. I would train six days a week, and would usually take time off from lectures at lunchtime. I was a medical student at Saint Mary's Hospital Medical School in London at the time. And I practiced my skill and speed and gained stamina by running intervals of a fast quarter mile and a slow quarter mile, and went on doing this until I'd completed about five miles. And that was what I regard as a good training session. And it would take about 35-40 minutes. The day was windy and rainy, as the weather often is in Britain in May. I rather doubted whether I could run a mile in 3:55 or 3:56, which is what it would have meant if the wind had been at its height. Up till about half-an-hour before I was uncertain.

JD: That was Sir Roger Bannister, on As It Happens in 1979. He was speaking about the race that made him the first athlete to ever break a four-minute mile. Sir Bannister died Saturday. He was 88-years-old. And CBC Radio's "Ideas" is going to have more about Sir. Roger on their website or they do have more on their website, including a 2004 interview that they did. You can find their website: www.cbc.ca/ideas.

Hamilton vandalism

Guest: Rebecca Tomasic

JD: Locke Street In Hamilton, Ontario is considered a gem by some people. It's bustling; it has some cool coffee shops on it, some clothing stores, and a popular artisanal donut spot. But on Saturday night, Locke Street saw some alarming vandalism, seemingly out of nowhere. A mob of people wearing balaclavas marched through the street smashing windows and lighting firecrackers. Police say damage to shops, cars, and homes totalled about 100-thousand dollars. Rebecca Tomasic saw it all happen. She's the co-owner of Bitten on Locke, that is a cupcake shop. We reached her in Hamilton.

CO: Rebecca, at what point did you realize on Saturday night that something was happening outside your cupcake shop?

REBECCA TOMASIC: Well, I had unusually stopped by the store. Usually, I would not be there at ten o'clock at night. And I was dropping some things off. I parked across the street from our store on Locke Street, was going into the store and I saw some fireworks up the street. And, of course, initially, I thought it was some sort of a celebration. I wouldn't expect you know anything negative out of that. Went into the store for a couple of minutes, came out, locked the door and proceeded to take a few steps, and that's when I realized what was happening. That's when I witnessed about 30 men all in black marching down, very menacing and vandalizing everything.

CO: Wow! Just describe what you saw?

RT: Everybody in black. They had a large banner that two of them were holding ends up that said: “we are the ungovernable”. They were throwing flares and fireworks. They had a group in the middle and several of them kind of running to each side of the road, vandalizing all the businesses along the street. I personally ran to my car, which was across the street and got in my car. And they passed right by me. They looked at me in a menacing way. I was worried they might do something to me and my car, but luckily there was not any physical violence, just a lot of vandalism to all the businesses.

CO: What did they do to your shop?

RT: From my car, I watched them throw a large rock through one of the front windows, and a couple of them take hammers to the other front window and hammer it until it shattered.

CO: How long did you stay where you are in your car?

RT: I stayed in my car for maybe three to four minutes, until they had continued to march down the street and shortly after that appeared to disperse. We were in such a daze, and people started to come out of some of the restaurants. And I came out when I saw other people coming out of the restaurant because you know it's almost like you have to go be with other people and say you know what happened, and just talk about it and get everyone’s opinion.

CO: Because I understand some people in the restaurants were hiding under the tables when the windows started to crash.

RT: Well, the scary thing is you just don't expect anything like that. Anything so organized and angry to be coming down your street in any place in Canada, and when it's happening, you don't know where they're drawing the line. You don't know if they're going to be violent if somebody has a gun. It was very scary in the moment.

CO: What are the theories that police are working with as to who the group was — what do they represent?

RT: Well, initially, there was talk there was an anarchist book sale on in the city, and people wondered if it was related to that. There's also been a little bit of talk that there are some pockets a little bit in Hamilton of people who are angry about some of the gentrification going on. And the latest that I heard is that it might be a group out of Quebec that moves around and goes to various places causing issues and damage.

CO: Or all of the above?

RT: Or all of the above and everything is hearsay.

CO: It does seem these anarchists rather well-organized?

RT: Very well-organized. I mean there's even been some people have said that at that at the end of the street that they had cars waiting for them so they could quickly be whisked off before the police could do anything. It was very organized. You could tell that immediately with their sign, and you know they had like some kind of container filled with fireworks and flares and things like that. So it was highly-organized, and that's what made it even more frightening I think.

CO: And what do you make of this sign “we are the ungovernable”?

RT: When I read that sign, it became more terrifying to me because it was kind of to me I thought Wow! So in other words, you're not afraid of the law. So where are you going to draw that line? And obviously, that's what would lead people to believe that it's part of an anarchist group.

CO: And I understand Locke Street it the street we're talking about and that is Doughnut Monster, which is a popular place where its windows were broken and people were sort of out in the street showing solidarity for the shopkeepers. Did you see that?

RT: Absolutely. Yesterday, we decided not to open. We just fulfilled some orders for customers and left our door open you know to be part of the community. But Locke Street was just amazing yesterday. It was as busy as I've ever seen it. And yes, Doughnut Monster did open his doors, and he had a lot of damage, so for him to get his doors open hats off to him. And there was a lineup of people around the corner there to support him and purchase his donuts. And a lot of people have gone to the businesses with the boarded up windows and written notes. I mean I went out to my car at the end of the day, and somebody had twist-tied a little heart they had cut out and put it on my doorknob. Just incredible support, and today that we are open we just can't believe just person after person coming in saying we wanted to come to support you today.

CO: Did you hear from anybody who felt — as you’re mentioning that people didn't like the gentrification and the change — is anyone saying well, this is what comes of all the developments in Hamilton?

RT: I have not heard anybody say that and I've not even heard that before Saturday night. I mean I have heard some concern. Certainly, it has to be done at a reasonable pace, and maybe there is a discussion there. But if that is at the heart of it I mean I don't know what their endgame is in all of this. I mean if that's your issue, going in and destroying local small businesses. And I think every business that that was destroyed or harmed along the street is owned by somebody who is from Hamilton, lived in Hamilton for years, paying young people to work there. It just it makes no sense. I'm not sure what their endgame was.

CO: Well, I hope your business recovers. You get your windows fixed. Rebecca, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

RT: Thank you so much.

CO: Take care. Bye bye.

RT: Bye bye.

JD: Rebecca Tomasic is the co-owner of Bitten on Locke. And we reached her in Hamilton.

Energy drink death

JD: On the outside, the cans look like pop or fruit juice. On the inside, they're very potent. The Quebec alcohol energy drink known as "Effed Up" is said to be equal to drinking four glasses of wine. Now, after the death of a teenaged girl in Laval, the chain of Quebec convenience stores Couche-Tard has pulled the product. Now, the company behind the drink itself says it will halt production. Police are still awaiting a toxicology report on Athena Gervais's death. But before she disappeared, witnesses said she was seen drinking a can of the "Effed Up". Hubert Sacy says he warned authorities about these drinks six months ago. Mr. Sacy is the director of a Quebec group called Educ'Alcool — or Alcohol Education. This morning, he spoke with "Daybreak Montreal" host Mike Finnerty.

SOUNDCLIP

HUBERT SACY: It's a good decision because four months ago, Metro grocery stores decided to stop selling this one. And Couche-Tard decided to stop the sales also during this weekend. And I have called for at least a suspension of the sales of this product until we see how dangerous they are and if they should be allowed or not, because the signs were coming six months ago. I don't want to look like Nostradamus — you know the one who said oh, I told you, I told you. But it is true that I have said let's not wait until somebody dies, you know? The data was extremely clear. Doctors in emergency rooms were raising the flag; they were saying hey guys, there's something not normal that's happening here every single weekend and sometimes during the week. They receive between 10 and 15 young people in coma state, which means that they have had a lot of these drinks, which because of their composition, strong alcohol together with sugar and stimulants. The sugar and the stimulants hide the effect and the taste of alcohol. So you get one, two cans, three cans; when you have three cans, you already have 12 standard drinks. That means two bottles of wine. And when you drink these so quickly, and you are so young, this is the result.

MIKE FINNERTY: What should Quebec do within its powers? Because it's Quebec that can decide what's sold?

HS: When it comes to the product itself, or the labeling, that's federal. But then when it comes to its promotion, it sales, it's accessibility, then it's the government of Quebec. When there is something that is dangerous, you don't do business as usual while you're investigating. You should put it on hold, study and then if need be, come back. Here we've done exactly the opposite. I'm not here to blame people or to say who did well and who did wrong or whatever. But I mean it was obvious that it would come one day, and I said I hope we're not going to lose a young person before we start acting. Unfortunately, I was right. And I'm so sorry to be right.

JD: Hubert Sacy is director of Educ'Alcool, an alcohol education group in Quebec. He was speaking to "Daybreak Montreal" host Mike Finnerty.

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March 5, 2018 episode transcript

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