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The AIH Transcript for July 23, 2018

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

Prologue

LAURA LYNCH: Hello, I'm Laura Lynch, sitting in for Carol Off.

MARCIA YONG: Good evening, I'm Marcia Young, sitting in for Jeff Douglass. This is “As It Happens”.

[Music: Theme]

MY: Tonight:

LL: On a hot summer night, the coldest crime. A 10-year-old girl and an 18-year-old woman are dead, and more than a dozen are injured, after a gunman search shooting on a bustling Toronto street.

MY: The comfortable turns chaotic. We'll hear from a witness who was relaxing on a patio when the shots started ringing out, and the Toronto MP who knew one of the victims.

LL: Rescue omission. After Israel helps 400 of Syria's White Helmets volunteers escape the Assad regime's advance, we'll speak to one of the White Helmets still inside about what he's facing.

MY: He preferred yesterday's News. Because today's New York Daily News is a much-diminished newspaper, after half the newsroom staff, including our guest, is cut.

LL: A blow-by-blow account. For the 17th year running, the Swiss mountains echo with haunting moans as dozens of competitors gather to have a series of blasts at the annual Alphorn Festival.

MY: And… he's a “Starman” waiting in a surprising container. The drummer for David Bowie's very first band comes across a 1963 demo tape featuring that legendary artist on vocals… in an old bread basket.

MY: “As It Happens”, the Monday edition. Radio that guesses one way or another, that tape is probably kind of crummy.

[Music: Theme]

Part one: Greektown shooting: witness and official, David Bowie lost recording

Greektown shooting: witness

Guest: Jo-Anne Saunders

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: Gunshots and a witnessed describing seeing bodies go down and people being shot.]

MY: In Toronto's Greektown tonight, there's shock, sorrow and still so much confusion. Last night, a gunman crisscrossed Danforth Avenue in the city's east end, firing into cafes, restaurants, and outdoor patios, and at people on the sidewalk. The shooting left two people dead: an 18-year-old woman and a 10-year-old girl. Thirteen others were injured. The suspect was found dead on Danforth Avenue not far from the scene. He has been identified as 29-year-old Faisal Hussain from Toronto. His family has released a statement saying he had, quote, “Severe mental health challenges, struggling with psychosis and depression his entire life.” They also extended their deepest condolences to the families of the victims. Jo-Anne Saunders witnessed the shooting last night, from a patio in the heart of Greektown. We reached her earlier today in Toronto.

LL: Ms. Saunders, first of all, let's just go back to last night. When did you realize something was happening on The Danforth?

JO-ANNE SAUNDERS: We were sitting on a patio, just enjoying. We had just finished our meal and we're having drinks. And there was about 10 to 20 loud it was almost like a burst. And you couldn't place what it was because we've never heard anything like that before. And people were just kind of unsure. And people were turning and looking because it was a little bit of distance away. And then the noise came closer. You realized that there was a sense of panic and people were running. There wasn't screaming. It was very quiet. So there was a sense of urgency immediately, but it became clearly obvious that something was the matter.

LL: And what did you do at that point?

JS: All of a sudden, I just saw people running that were across the street eating ice cream. And I then saw the gunman. And we just immediately there were still tables behind us in the restaurant because the restaurant is designed lengthwise, so a lot of people had no idea what was going on. So we just yelled at everybody to get down that there was a gun. And there was people just in front of us on the patio with us, and we all just fell down to the ground and made our way to the back when we could.

LL: You say that you saw the gunman?

JS: Yes.

LL: How far away was he from you?

JS: Probably 10 metres or so by the time I turned around and locked on him.

LL: And what was he doing?

JS: He was just standing, just corralling the crowds with a pistol drawn, scanning and just shooting people at random. Looking at people that had gathered and were trying to run away, and going to patios that were full and just picking off people.

LL: So you actually saw him shoot people?

JS: Yeah, I saw three people. At the time, it was hard to know who was actually shot and who was falling down like families with the people or people that were just falling because of panic, and that was happening quite a bit. But the one person I saw was the small girl that was eating ice cream, who I think she's still in critical care.

LL: How old did she appear to be?

JS: Oh, she was young. She was maybe 7, 8, 9 — just little.

LL: That must have been terrible to witness. I'm so sorry.

JS: Oh, it was awful.

LL: Did he appear to be targeting anyone, or was it random?

JS: He just he was holding his gun. And it just appeared like he was waving it over crowds of people and just shooting anyone at random. It wasn't anyone specifically. It was just whoever he got a good aim on it looked like.

LL: Did you get a look at the gunman? Did you see anything about what he looked like?

JS: I saw him, and that was when it just kind of set in and it went raw. He just looked like an average person, nothing identifiable. All dressed in black, large bag on him.

LL: Did you see a facial expression on him at all?

JS: I didn't notice it at first because I didn't know that he was the gunman until I saw the gun. I just wondered why this person was standing in the middle of the street. And it was just this blank expression — just nothing.

LL: What was going through your mind as all this was happening in front of you?

JS: Just surreal. Just something that you're just sitting, eating dinner with a friend. And just something that it was like a movie — a terrible movie — that you just don't want to be a part of, and it's just a sense of numbness that you just don't believe that you're seeing what you're seeing because it can't be real.

LL: And what did you do then after all of this happened? You said you got down on the ground, did you try to run away?

JS: At the time, we were kind of out in the open nearby where he was. So the two people that were in front of us immediately took back. People had ran to the back because there was a barricade that sectioned off the kitchen. So they were hiding behind there. And the person that I was with — because we had been signaling everyone to get to the back of the restaurant and get down — we couldn't make it back as easily. So I got down and I turned around to see that he wasn't facing me. And I just shot off to the back as well as quickly as I could, and I stayed down as low as they could.

LL: We know that the gunman is dead, and we’ve now had it just confirmed just in the last a while that both an 18-year-old woman and a 10-year-old girl have died.

JS: Yeah.

LL: What's your reaction to that?

JS: It could have been anyone. It could have been anyone that was there eating and walking. It was a packed street. So everybody was just so lucky to get out that could, and it's just so horrible. You think like that could have been me, it could have been the person I was with. And just to see other people get hurt and know that those are probably the people that may have died is just disgusting.

LL: How often do you go to The Danforth to sit down and have a drink and relax?

JS: Quite often. I used to live in the neighbourhood about ten minutes away, and I'm not far from there now. And it's a beautiful place to go in the summer. I like to go there quite often because the patios meet the sidewalk on the street, and it has a very European, very eclectic feel. And it was a beautiful night. So there's loads of families, and everybody was out to enjoy summer.

LL: I know it's less than 24 hours later, but do you think you'll go back?

JS: Absolutely. It shouldn't stop people from going out and doing things. I think that's somewhat of the intention of things like this. So I think everybody should rally together and support the businesses on The Danforth.

LL: Ms. Saunders, I know last night was difficult, and it was sheer chaos. And I so appreciate you talking to us about it. I'm just wondering if there is an image from last night that's going to stay with you?

JS: I think just the look of shock on people's faces as we realized what was starting to happen to people on the road that couldn't get away as quickly as we did because there was fences around the patio that had to stay out there, so just the shock.

LL: Ms. Saunders, I hope you have people there who are giving you some support right now. Thank you for talking.

JS: Absolutely. I live in Toronto alone, but I'll be going home tomorrow to visit my family. And the police have been really good.

LL: OK. Ms. Saunders, please take good care of yourself.

JS: Thank you.

LL: Bye bye.

JS: Bye.

MY: Jo-Anne Saunders was a witness to last night's shooting on Toronto's Danforth Avenue. We reached her in Toronto.

Greektown shooting: official

Guest: Nathaniel Erskine-Smith

MY: As I mentioned earlier, we know now that two people were killed in last night's shooting on The Danforth: a ten-year-old girl, and eighteen-year-old Reese Fallon. Ms. Fallon was a volunteer with the city's Young Liberals. She was identified by Toronto Beaches-East York MP Nathaniel Erskine-Smith. We reached Mr. Erskine-Smith in Toronto.

LL: Mr. Erskine-Smith, how did you react when you found out that you know one of the people killed in last night's shooting on The Danforth?

NATHANIEL ERSKINE-SMITH: With great sadness, obviously, and immediately wanting to reach out to those even more directly affected — friends and family.

LL: How did you find out about the news?

NES: I obviously, like most people, read the news last night about the attack on Danforth. And this morning learned from other volunteers and friends that this directly impacted our local organization and community and friends.

LL: That's right, because Reese Fallon worked with the Young Liberals, and that's how you knew her. Have you spoken with her family?

NES: I spent some time with the family earlier today, yes.

LL: And how are they coping?

NES: So they have asked me to share a very brief statement, which is just that they're absolutely devastated. And that they otherwise ask for privacy at this time.

LL: I understand that need for privacy. Is there anything though that you could tell us about this young woman and how you came to know her?

NES: I know her for her efforts volunteering with us. And she is a wonderful young woman. Full of energy, smart, bent on making a difference in the world. And beyond that, I want to respect the family's wishes for privacy.

LL: And so young.

NES: And so young, yeah.

LL: And she lives in the neighbourhood of The Danforth, did she?

NES: She lived in my Beaches-East York riding.

LL: What do you understand happened to her last night?

NES: I've spoken with another young woman who is there, but I don't want to speak on behalf of others and especially with the wishes for privacy of the family.

LL: Understood. She was one of several Young Liberals we were told now who was out celebrating a birthday last night getting ice cream. And we understand that two other Young Liberal colleagues of hers were also shot as well, though they suffered less serious injuries.

NES: I can't say anything other than this has deeply and directly affected our Young Liberals.

LL: Have you been to see the other two who were shot?

NES: Not yet, but I plan to.

LL: How are you coping with all of this?

NES: How does one cope? I mean they're surrounded by loved ones, but a brief period time with parents who have lost their daughter. I mean I don't know how anyone copes with that?

LL: I know you've probably been speaking to other constituents of yours as well. What are people in the neighbourhood saying to you?

NES: I mean people are obviously worried and shocked and horrified that something like this can happen in such a safe part of Toronto. It’s so close to home. Beyond that people are grieving. I mean there's a vigil tonight at 7:00. And I will certainly be there, as will many I think across the community. But right now, there’s grieving, and tomorrow and beyond are conversations about maybe broader solutions.

LL: And what are you saying to them, or are you just listening?

NES: I am offering my support in any way. So I mean I'm speaking to you and speaking to other media outlets because the parents want privacy. And I offered to act as a bit of a go-between and to ensure that their privacy is respected. Basically offering help in any way.

LL: Reading social media today, there are a number of people who want to see guns taken off our streets. What are your thoughts on that issue after what happened last night?

NES: I don't know what the exact right answer is, but we can't have this violence in our city. So if there's more that can be done to prevent this from happening, without question at all that we can do we should do.

LL: You know these people in this constituency. How do you expect the neighbourhood to heal after this, or go back to normal?

NES: I don't know. I don't know what the answer to that is. I mean for those who are more loosely-connected like myself. I mean we rely upon our routines and the support of our families and friends. I think we all have to step up and be there for the families and friends most closely connected to this because otherwise, I don't know how they do deal with it.

LL: What will you be reflecting on tonight as you stand at the vigil?

NES: Just I guess committing myself to be there for the families and committing myself to do everything I can to ensure nothing like this ever happens again. I mean really just being there in solidarity with our community to say this is this is unacceptable, and that we grieve with the families, and we resolve to do everything we can to make sure no families suffer like this.

LL: Is there anything more you can say about how you hope Reese Fallon will be remembered?

NES: I think just as a passionate, energetic and brilliant young woman. Because that's what she was.

LL: All right, Mr. Erskine-Smith, we will leave it there. Thank you.

NES: Thank you.

MY: Nathaniel Erskine-Smith is the Member of Parliament for Beaches-East York in Toronto. That's where we reached him. Earlier today, he met with the family of eighteen-year-old Reese Fallon, who was killed in last night's shooting on The Danforth. For the latest on this story, go to: www.cbc.ca/news.

[Music: Folk]

Ontario fires

MY: Across northern Ontario, hundreds of firefighters are battling forest fires tonight. Over the weekend, a fire about 90 kilometres south of Sudbury burned close to 5 thousand hectares of land, forcing evacuations in nearby areas. One of those areas included residents of Henvey Inlet First Nation. About 175 people from that community were evacuated on Saturday. Most are now staying in hotels in Parry Sound and Sudbury — or with family. Angele Dubois is one of those evacuees. She spoke to Waub Rice, host of CBC Sudbury's "Up North", earlier today.

SOUNDCLIP

ANGELE DUBOIS: When I got home to pack, it was it was definitely smoky — like you could see it coming down the river. I love on the Pickerel River, and you could really see it. And the road was smoky, inside the house smelled really smoky. The windows were open, so I closed all of those. I couldn’t see flames, but you could tell it was close just by the smoke.

WAUB RICE: So when you get the order to leave, what do you take with you? Did you have an inventory — things that you absolutely had to get? What did you bring down to the hotel with you?

AD: That was kind of the hardest part was deciding what was important and what wasn't important. And kind of like not being ready like you know Sunday is kind of laundry day, so I didn’t have like a whole bunch of clean clothes. And then you know pictures and mementos. And yeah, I found it really hard and so I kind of like was thinking I’m one person, right? So the parents who had to pack up whole families and deciding what to take and what are the necessities and what memories you leave behind. And yeah, it was hard. It was kind of surreal to be in that position to have to choose, and not really knowing what's going to happen.

MY: That was Angele Dubois, from Hevey Inlet First Nation. She spoke to CBC Sudbury's Waub Rice earlier today.

[Music: Sombre]

David Bowie lost recording

Guest: David Hadfield

MY: Here's a 55-year-old song, featuring a teenage vocalist who would go on to be one of the most important artists of all time. And if you detect a legend-in-the-making when you hear it, well, you're very generous.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: A clip of a song by the Konrads]

MY: A brief snippet of a 1963 demo tape showcasing the vocals of a sixteen-year-old kid named David Jones. Who would adopt a new stage name four years later: David Bowie. At the time of that recording, Bowie was the saxophonist in a band called The Konrads. And recently, that long-lost demo tape was unearthed in the unlikeliest of places by Konrads' drummer David Hadfield. We reached him in Pattaya, Thailand.

LL: Mr. Hadfield, how and where did you stumble upon this long lost demo tape?

DAVID HADFIELD: When you sell your home you know when you've been there 22 years, you accumulate a lot of boxes of things and bits and pieces. I was a little bit of a spoilt thank goodness, and came across it in the roof of my garage, in my granddad’s old basket with a lot of other tapes.

LL: In your granddad's old what basket?

DH: It's a bread basket we used to use when he used to go around the village and deliver breads. He had this large basket on his arm, you know?

LL: How did it end up in the bread basket of all places?

DH: The bread basket was empty. So it got seconded into becoming a tape store.

LL: We just heard that clip. Is that all there is, or is there more on the tape?

DH: Oh no, the tape is 18 minutes long.

LL: And how would you describe the music?

DH: Oh, very for the time, 1963, extremely poppy. You know what I mean? It was that sort of era were boy meets girl, girl goes away, boy is unhappy. You know those sort of songs.

LL: And you were the drummer at the time in the band, is that correct?

DH: Yes, I was indeed.

LL: David Bowie was just 16 years old, and you knew him as David Jones then.

DH: That’s right, and he was a saxophone player, not the vocalist. At the time, he never had any aspirations to be the vocalist. It was the fact that we played locally like lots of amateur bands did, you know? And then somebody from London spotted us and said well, we'd like to give you an audition, but we need a demo of some songs if you've written anything that we can present before they take you in the studio and have a listen. And that's how it came about.

LL: Why did you guys decide that David Jones was going to be the vocalist?

DH: Well, that that was a bit of an accident. He wrote the song with the guitarist, and when we did the demo, he said well, I might as well sing it because then the singer will know how to to learn it, if you know what I mean? Before we go and do the finished product.

LL: What do you remember about the David Jones of 16 years of age?

DH: Oh, pretty much his personality was quite individual. He was extremely careful of how he looked and what he wanted to dress. In fact, he was a bit of a nuisance sometimes because, in those days, we all wore the same thing like the Beatles did, if you know what I mean? And we all had these little suits, but he didn't like that. And he kept trying to get us to wear other such clothes. But, of course, he you know when you got a small wage or whatever, you can't keep changing uniforms in the band every week. But he was a very fastidious about the way he looked. He had a lot to do with his hair in those days I always remember. It was combed in a very special way. And it had to be absolutely immaculately in place.

LL: Seems like that attention to detail worked out for him though.

DH: Oh yes, mind you he did take his time. I mean I give him an enormous amount of credit because he left us in the end of ‘63. And it took him another six years before he actually made any impression on the English charts with “Space Odyssey”. And that takes some you know real tenacity to keep going all that time. And he went through an enormous amount of revamping himself during that period, you know?

LL: How did all of you meet each other in the first place?

DH: I went to school with a certain gentleman called Harry Webb, who you probably know better as Cliff Richard.

LL: Ah, yes.

DH: And we were in the fifth form of the last year of our school life together. And that's where I started playing when I was playing with him at school in a small group.

LL: And how did you end up meeting David Jones then?

DH: Right. Well, I went to live with my stepfather's mother in Bromley in Kent. I went into the local music shop near Bromley South Station and put an advert in there, a bit cheeky actually, “ Ex-Cliff Richard drummer looking for a band to join.” And it did the trick.

LL: And that's how you connected?

DH: Yeah, we met in the bar across the road.

LL: So you made the demo recording, and what came of it when you sent it in?

DH: We gave it to this agent, and he got us an audition. And we then repeated it with our lead singer. But they weren't impressed at all. And so they said bye bye, thank you, but no thank you. And that prompted David in to thinking about going solo in trying to develop his career. But he held out a lot of hope for that audition, but he didn't come off.

LL: How long did the Konrads stay together after that point then?

DH: Oh, quite a long time. I left in ’68, and they were still going a couple years later, because I left to open my own recording studio. He was a bit jealous at some point apparently because we were doing quite well, particularly when we became the opening band on the Rolling Stones tour in 1965.

LL: Oh yes, that other little known band.

DH: Yes, that’s right.

LL: Well, I'm sure he didn't stay jealous for too long. The tape is now up for auction. Where would you like to see it end up?

DH: I'd like to see it appear on an anthology. You know if you’re going to do something to do with the history of all his work, you really need to have this track on there. It’s the first one basically.

LL: Well, we'll see what happens with it. Mr. Hadfield, thank you.

DH: It’s a pleasure.

LL: Take care.

MY: That was David Hadfield, former bandmate of a very young David Bowie. He's in Pattaya, Thailand.

[Music: Guitar]

Part two: White Helmets, Daily News cuts, ghost town buyer

White Helmets

Guest: Ammar al Salmo

MY: Roughly 100 of Syria's White Helmet volunteers are safe inside Jordan tonight — along with hundreds of their family members. Throughout Syria's civil war, the organization has saved thousands of lives in rebel-held zones. But the rescuers themselves needed rescuing — after Russian-backed government forces encircled a hold-out area near the south. The mission was conducted by Israeli Defence Forces, with Canada reportedly offering asylum to most of the escapees. But for White Helmet volunteers still inside Syria, the future is less certain. Ammar al Salmo is one of those volunteers. We reached him in Idlib.

LL: Mr. al Salmo, you are in Idlib right now, you're in northern Syria. How are you and how are things around you where you are?

AMMAR AL SALMO: Actually, right now, Idlib or the north of Syria overpopulated with many evacuated with many displaced people from all around Syria. The situation right now is calm, no air strikes. But people here is worried about the future because the future is unknown for them. And all the rebel say that Idlib next.

LL: So yes, the focus right now for the Syrian regime seems to be on Daraa in the southern part of the country. And that is why there was this evacuation of White Helmets. How are your volunteers who got to Jordan how are they doing?

AAS they’re right now very well. They were in such a dangerous condition. And there was one just about two kilometres from them. Their life was in danger, and they sent us messages to do something to make something. And we asked our friend to help is this, especially Canada and Europe, who support the White Helmets to do something. And we asked the U.N. Refugee Committee to help in this. And everything was good for the guys right now are safe in Jordan.

LL: So you say you asked for help from Canada, from the United Nations, from the EU. How did you get that message out, and how did the evacuation come together?

AAS: We asked them to help our rescuers in Daraa that we have 200 volunteers there. And their life was in danger because we are threatened by Russia and by the regime. And this reconciliation that happened in Daraa between the regime and the rebels doesn't include a safe passage for those who want to leave Daraa. So our guys was so afraid of the region control to be detained and tortured.

LL: Do you know the details of how the evacuation came together, and why it was Israeli Defence Forces who got involved?

AAS: Actually, we asked, for example, Jordan to help, but Jordan refused. First of all, because Jordon didn’t want any civilian to stay for a long time, so the Syrian regime took the border with Jordan. So there was no border just with Israel, and this evacuation process happened. The guys bussed through the Golan Heights in Israel and then to Jordan.

LL: What was Canada's role in all of this?

AAS: To take those people to resettle them in Canada. I think more than 100 families will be resettled in Canada.

LL: Did Canada also take part in organizing the evacuation?

AAS: Yes, of course, because they told the Jordanian government they will not stay for a long time.

LL: So you say 100 White Helmets and their families are going to be coming to Canada, correct?

AAS: Yes, more than 100.

LL: More than 100. Now your organization has been subject to attacks from the Russian and Syrian governments for years. And that has people suggesting that Canada might be actually welcoming people with ties to terrorism into this country. What would you say to those people?

AAS: Actually, the regime accused us of being terrorists, of being a branch of ISIS. And right now, he accuses us of being an agent to Israel, or to the western country. This propaganda just to criminalize the White Helmets. We witnessed all the crimes of the regime. We witnessed the regime’s use of chemical weapons. Our reports display the regime’s crimes against humanity.

LL: So Canadians need not worry?

AAS: Of course not, because those rescuers who were doing humanitarian work in Syria helping civilians. And they risked their lives to save lives.

LL: Now if you fear the regime and its allies are going to send their forces north, are you worried that the White hamlets might need rescuing in Idlib in the coming weeks?

AAS: Yes, we expect so because the war hit the people of Damascus countryside, down to the people of Aleppo, down to Daraa. So the world will let Idlib civilians down because Russian aircrafts have everything and control the Situation in Syria.

LL: How long will the White Helmets keep doing their rescue efforts?

AAS: Actually, until the end of the war. We wish the end of the war tomorrow.

LL: Can I ask you then after you've worked so hard to save the lives of people inside Syria, how does it feel to you to see your own members having to get out of the country to find safety?

AAS: Actually, we wish to find safety in Syria. We love our country, we love our homes. We have here everything. We have here memories. We don't want to go to a new country. This is for me and for the guys here face danger every day. And they don't want to leave Syria, but you know the situation in Daraa was so difficult. And they were to sieged, and there is no way for them.

LL: Sir, I thank you for your time. Take care.

AAS: Thank you.

LL: Bye bye.

MY: Ammar al Salmo is a volunteer with the Syrian White Helmets. We reached him in Idlib, Syria.

[Music: World music]

Daily News cuts

Guest: Zach Haberman

MY: It's a storied New York City tabloid; a multi-Pulitzer Prize-winning newspaper known for its direct, attention-grabbing headlines. But today, the New York Daily News is in the headlines itself — because half of the paper's newsroom staff has just been laid off. Tronc, the company that owns the Daily News, said "significant financial challenges" are the reason for the cuts. Gone are the editor-in-chief, the managing editor, and breaking-news editor Zach Haberman, who'd been with the paper for six years. We reached Zach Haberman in New York City, where he and his colleagues were processing the news in a local beer house.

LL: Zach, we caught you at the bar there at the beer house. How many pints are you and your colleagues into it right now?

ZACH HABERMAN: Oh, I can't speak for myself, but the rest of them are doing just fine. And actually it's very sweet. We've had people from news organizations around the country actually reaching out to the bar to buy everybody rounds. And at least one news organization that came down and put their credit card down for a while for everybody. So that speaks to a larger sentiment of what's happening here. And while this is a jarring and difficult time for the people who were let go today, everybody recognizes that this is speaking to a larger issue, which is the devaluing of news. And that is why everybody is reaching into their pocket if nothing else just to get everyone a round for a hot second. And it's extremely nice of everybody to do.

LL: How did you find out you were out of a job?

ZH: I was pulled into an office with an HR representative and the publisher of the paper. This had been long rumoured for a few weeks, and really started to hit home. Actually, a few articles were published last week that dropped in the newsroom like an anvil. So it was all pretty much known that this was going to be happening today. We got an email last night asking people to be in the newsroom at 9:00 a.m. and everyone came in at 9:00 a.m., and we were then told our collective fate.

LL: Half of the staff though. Did you expect it to be so big — the cut?

ZH: I didn't know what to expect. I was one of the first one gone this morning, so a lot of the names and the full scope of the list didn't make its way to me for another hour or so. And some of the names on that list are jarring the significance of the loss that they would be for the Daily News and for New York City journalism.

LL: If you were still on the job in writing tomorrow's headline on these layoffs, what would it be?

ZH: “We got Tronced”

LL: Very good. The media company that owns the Daily News, Tronc, as you say, said in a staff email that the cuts, and this is a quote, “Reflect the realities of our business and the need to adapt to an ever-changing media environment.” Is that good enough?

ZH: It's not unfair. It's slightly banal. But it is a tough business right now. It's always been a tough business, but it's an extremely tough business from a financial standpoint right now. I don't think that's lost on anybody who is sitting downstairs right now really enjoying themselves.

LL: Now, Jim Rich, who’s your former editor-in-chief, tweeted this morning, “If you hate democracy and think local governments should operate unchecked in the dark, then today is a good day for you.” I wonder if you share his sentiment?

ZH: I don't know if I would say I share that sentiment. I think it's a dark day for New York City. I think it's a day for the people of New York as far as the coverage that they are going to be getting, and holding their elected officials and the institutions that are there to protect them and accountable. But I don't know if I would go that far.

LL: Can you describe for me the kinds of New Yorkers who read the Daily News who you were writing for?

ZH: It wasn't just New Yorkers. The Daily News is a national paper. While we are local, we are printed in various cities around the country. Our website’s reach is quite extensive. If you're looking for journalism about New York City, and the people who are running it, there is something for everybody. And they are the champion of the working-class that wasn't the only reader.

LL: Can you tell me about some of the stories that you are most proud of that you worked on there?

ZH: To be perfectly honest, it's not individual stories. What I'm most proud of is the people I got to work with. Some were former colleagues that met again at this paper. Some were stories that I didn’t personally work on, but I was thrilled to watch and be a part of. One of them is Greg Smith’s six-year investigation into the New York City Housing Authority, and decrepit, dilapidated conditions that the 400,000 residents have been dealing with. Without the Daily News, without Greg Smith, these stories don't happen. And the mayor is not accountable for them. He is still there, thankfully. But my concern is not so much the story that I was proud of working on. My concern is the story that we're not going to get the chance to work on. That quite frankly I don't know if we'll have the time to do with the staff that is still available to the Daily News.

LL: Now are you and your colleagues talking at all today about future plans, or are you just sort of drowning your sorrows?

ZH: Everybody is talking about future plans. Everybody's got an idea. Right now, to be perfectly honest, everybody is just happy to be around each other, and share this dreadful moment with one another.

LL: Well, if I was there, I'd certainly raise a glass to you. Take care.

ZH: Thank you very much.

LL: Bye bye.

MY: That was Zach Haberman, who until today was the breaking news editor of the New York Daily News. He was in New York City.

[Music: Indie rock]

Ghost town buyer

Guest: Brent Underwood

MY: Just a few hours from Los Angeles lies the sleepy town of Cerro Gordo. And our guest is hoping it can be awakened. More than a century ago, the 300-acre community was a bustling mining centre. But when local industry dried up, everyone moved out — and Cerro Gordo has been virtually deserted. And it has been ever since. A group of friends bought that Wild West ghost town — and they have big plans. One of the new buyers is Brent Underwood. We reached him in Austin, Texas.

LL: Mr. Underwood, you've got a new place to hang your hat. How much did you pay for the ghost town?

Brent Underwood: One-point-four million dollars for the town. But considering we have 22 different buildings with, I see it as a deal.

LL: You think it's a bargain?

BU: In a way, yeah. I mean how often is it that you're able to purchase the whole town with some of your best friends? It just seemed like a thing to do.

LL: Okay, so describe this for me as if you're walking through the town. Tell me what you'd see?

BU: Sure. I mean so the town is in between Sequoia National Park and Death Valley National Park. And so if you're turning off the main road, you turn onto a road, at which point it's six miles up to the actual town. And during that six miles, you're going a mile an elevation, so you're going up pretty high. It's deep in places. And you know kind of when you turn into the town, the first thing you see is the American Hotel — a hotel I believe that was built in 1905. It's still standing today. So you'll see the hotel with the wraparound porches. To your left, you'll see a church that's been also converted into a movie theatre. It's kind of fun. If you enter the saloon, you kind of walk through the double swinging doors. Much like everybody would hope would be on a western saloon. And as you go in, there’s two out of tune pianos, which I think is appropriate for just setting. And in the bar itself, there's like beautiful stained glass behind the bar. They put a lot of like antique bottles there. There's a large oil painting of one of the former owners of it, Jody Patterson, who owned it for a very long time. And yeah, it's a pretty special place.

LL: Any bullet holes in the walls or the floors?

BU: There is! Interestingly enough, if you’re in the saloon and you take a left, there's a little card room. And in the card room, there is three very suspicious bullet holes in one of the walls. And underneath there is a bloodstain, which I haven't got to the bottom of that story yet. I'm not sure if I want to, but it exists, and we're going to keep it as is for now at least.

LL: Yeah, I was going to ask you. So you bought this town to develop it. What's the plan?

BU: We want to be able to maintain the historic nature of the property. Kind of keep the fabric of the town intact. I think that's what's been so special about it. There's been a caretaker there for the last 21 years named Robert. And Robert’s kind of dedicated his life to upkeeping these buildings, and make sure that the kind of historic nature of the property is maintained. So for us, we don't really want to change a lot of that. We want to keep the structures that are in place there. We don't have any plans to knock down any structures, nor building new structures at first. It's more just providing amenities in existing structures that will allow more people to stay there for longer periods of time to enjoy the space. Right now, it's a bit like camping even though you're indoors. And we want to make it a little less camping and a little bit more comfortable.

LL: Who are your clients going to be who want to go there, and what can they expect from their experience?

BU: Yeah, I think it's going to be a mix. I think because of the location, I think the hottest term in travel over the past decade has been experiential travel. You know people want and experience that is only available there and available nowhere else. Something that, for better or worse, they can share on Instagram with their friends that looks kind of unique. And so I think we're going to create a destination that is impossible to replicate. You know this is very much a piece of American history that's been established since 1865. So I think we're going to get a lot of weekend people that want to come up. I imagine that’s going to be a large clientele because we're about three hours from L.A., four hours from Las Vegas. And then in between that, we've got a lot of interesting inquires for kind of group bookings, whether that's a corporate retreat. They want to get away and spend some time team building. Or we've got a number of musicians who write to us that they want to go up there and finish their album. Or writers who want to finish a book, weddings, or a different event like that I imagine will be fairly popular up there as well.

LL: What do you know about the town's history, and what life was like there in its heyday?

BU: Yeah, it was very much a Wild West town. You know after we went on a contract, I just read everything I could find on it. And you know it was established in 1865. by 1900, forty-five hundred people lived in the town. So it was pretty big. It was the number one producer of silver and lead for the state of California. It was very much responsible for helping build Los Angeles. There's a quote back from 1890 that said something to the effect you know what Los Angeles is is because the Cerro Gordo. If the vein was ever severed, it would be our peril — or something to that effect. But at the same time, it was certainly a Wild West. There was reports that there was a murder a week up there. So I imagine it was not the easiest life in a mining town. But, at the same time, the town impacted a lot of people. And that’s what gets us so excited about it.

LL: So what led to the decline then?

BU: At one point in time, the silver vein fell out. I’m not a mining expert, but I believe that means that they weren't able to find any more silver in the mine. And afterwards they found zinc, and that kind of revived it for a number of years. But, at some point, the cost of removing the minerals was more than they could sell them for. And so everybody kind of packed up and moved out. At which point the town passed through kind of the eccentric and interesting families, until one family — the one that owned it before us — took care of it for I believe 30 years or so. And you know to their credit, they actually accepted our offer even though it wasn't the highest and best offer in terms of monetary amount. So we can kind of see this vision through.

LL: And when you talk about the experience then, can we expect the employees to be dressed in costume like cowboy boots, bustle skirts?

BU: No, we're not going to get real gimmicky like that. You know I've been to places like that in my childhood that I still cringe looking back on going to. And well I understand there's a market for that we really want to create a place that we would want to spend time in. And for better or worse, I wouldn’t really want to spend a ton of time where there was fake duels at noon in town hall or anything like that. And so well we’ll give a nod to history — there will be plenty of cowboy photos up — nobody will be required to wear cowboy garb while in the town.

LL: But wait a second here, you said you bought this a bunch of friends, correct?

BU: That's true.

LL: So who gets to be mayor?

BU: That's up for debate. We drew straws. Everybody is claiming different titles. The title of mayor has not been claimed because it is such a prestigious one. I'll throw my hat into the ring. I'm open to it. But my partner John might have a different story. SO I don't know. It might come to some type of a duel after all.

LL: Yeah, I was just going to say. Are you going to have a duel on the main street at noon? Well, we'll be watching. Thanks very much for talking to us.

BU: Of course. Thank you so much.

LL: Bye bye.

MY: That was entrepreneur Brent Underwood. We reached him in Austin, Texas.

Alpine horns

[Music: Old-timey]

MY: There was a time, in the Swiss Alps, when this sound was the radio. That's the sound of alphorns, recorded this past weekend at the Alphorn International Festival in Valais, Switzerland. You may recognize it from a commercial in which one guy plays one of the 3-metre-plus instruments, while another guy sings "Riiiicola!" But long before the existence of cough drops, alphorns were simple news-delivery devices. They can be heard up to 10 kilometres away, so people used them to alert each other to the arrival of strangers, or disasters — and to call their cattle home, of course. Nowadays I assume you can use an alphorn app for that. But thanks in part to the Alphorn International Festival, a lot of people still play the things. About 180 of them were expected to compete in the 2018 event this weekend. There they are! According to the Swiss website The Local, quote, "participants are judged according to several criteria. These include sound quality, precision breathing technique, mobility, intonation, as well as rhythm and articulation." Unquote. I assume the criteria also include whether the participant's horn sound transports the listener to a misty mountain in the Alps at dusk, where you're surrounded by edelweiss flowers, and weeping quietly into a cheese fondue. In which case, all these players are champions in my book.

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July 23, 2018 episode transcript

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