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The AIH Transcript for January 7, 2019

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

CAROL OFF: Hello, I’m Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening, I'm Jeff Douglas. This is “As It Happens”.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

JD: Tonight:

CO: Bolting, then deadbolting. The Story of an 18-year-old woman from Saudi Arabia goes global, after she flees her family, and barricades herself in a Bangkok hotel room so she won't be deported home.

JD: Up against the wall. The government shutdown passes the two-week mark — and the Democrats and the President are no closer to a compromise on the border wall.

CO: The final analysis. A feature interview with Jon Ronson — whose investigation into the suicide of porn star August Ames got more complicated the deeper he dug.

JD: Throwing away throwing away the key. As a teenage sex worker in Tennessee, Cyntoia Brown killed a man — but after 15 years of a life sentence, the state governor has granted Ms. Brown clemency.

CO: The finishing touchscreen. Employees at the Chinese smartphone company Huawei are reprimanded for making a hash of their New Year's hashtag — because they used an iPhone to tweet it out.

JD: Oh boy! And...it's the end of the world tour as she knows it. After a year travelling to 52 places in 52 weeks for the New York Times, journalist Jada Yuan provides some exposition on her expedition.

JD: "As It Happens", the Monday edition. Radio whose guests have a tendency to ramble.

[Music: Theme]

Part one: Saudi woman seeks asylum in Bangkok, shutdown: Democrat, dream job follow-up

Saudi woman seeks asylum in Bangkok

Guest: Joe De Luca

SOUNDCLIP

RAHAF MOHAMMAD AL-QUNUN: I'm not leaving my room until I see UNHCR. I want asylum.

JD: That is Rahaf Mohammed al-Qunun, pleading for help from a Bangkok hotel room this morning. The story of the 18-year-old Saudi woman blew up on social media this weekend. On Saturday, she flew to Bangkok, fleeing her family out of fear for her life. But she was stopped by Thai authorities — who confiscated her passport and threatened her with deportation, which is why Ms. al-Qunun barricaded herself inside a hotel room. Thai authorities now say she will be allowed to stay in the country, for now. That's a relief to Phil Robertson. He's the deputy Asia director for Human Rights Watch, in Bangkok. That's where we reached him.

CO: Mr. Robertson, what was your last contact with this Saudi woman in Thailand?

PHIL ROBERTSON: It was probably mid-morning. We were actually advising her to barricade herself in her room to prevent her from being sent back to Kuwait. Fortunately, she had someone who was with her in the room — a volunteer who did a tremendous job and was able to keep us in close touch. And so we were you know dealing with the situation in real-time. We knew what was happening. We knew it who was coming to the door and banging on the door. At one point they were even trying to say that you know hey, come on out it's human rights watch. And it has like no, we don't have anybody at the airport right now. So…

CO: the first many of us knew is that there was a message she put out that was on Twitter: “I am Rahaf. I am in the hotel. I need a country to protect me as soon as possible. I am seeking asylum. I cut my hair and my family would kill me if I'm sent back.” Now that wasn't your first contact with her was it? Because you said you advised her to get into a hotel room.

PR: We advised her to barricade herself once she was in the hotel. I mean she was taken to the hotel by Kuwait Air you know because they were waiting to send her back. My first involvement with her was activists flagging for me that she had put out a number of tweets. And I was trying to understand who she was and try to figure out you know is this a case for going to be involved in. And it very quickly became quite clear that it was, and we jumped in with both feet. Once the word started getting out, the huge response of social media to her tweets and to her plight really helped turn the day. When finally the immigration director came out and said we're not going to send her back. You know she's been given over to UNHCR for protection. You know there was well over 60 or 70 journalists assembled at the airport that really took this story forward, and I think gave it life.

CO: What brought her to Bangkok? Why was she in Thailand?

PR: She was actually transiting Thailand to go to Australia. She had an Australian visa and was heading to Australia. She flew from Kuwait to Bangkok, and she was then going to fly from Bangkok to somewhere in Australia.

CO: And she was travelling by herself. She's 18 years old. What was she fleeing? What do you understand about what was going on with her in Saudi Arabia?

PR: Well, she was fleeing psychological and physical abuse by her male relatives, particularly her father and her brother. You know as you mentioned, she had cut her hair and then been confined to her room for almost six months. She very clearly stated that she was unhappy with Islam. She was unhappy having to wear the hijab and being forced to pray. She was very unhappy being told that she couldn't study the things she wanted to study or she wouldn't be able to work in the way she went to work. She was having her life interfered in every possible way by conservative men who were telling her that she could do this and couldn't do that. And when she tried to defy them and showed any independence she suffered abuse.

CO: She's obviously a very strong young woman because what she is doing is very, very difficult. But possibly — and probably — because she fears something what will happen to her if she goes home. What has she said about what she believes will happen if she was returned to Saudi Arabia?

PR: She was remarkably consistent in talking to us and talking to others in saying that she thought she would be killed if she was sent back to Saudi Arabia. Her father is a senior government official in a provincial administration. This is someone I think who would be able to treat his family any way he wants and would basically benefit from impunity because of his position, his stature, his influence.

CO: Her father has apparently traveled to Bangkok to try and retrieve her. What do you know about that?

PR: We are very concerned about that. You know she is 18 years old. She is considered an adult by international law. You know she should not be forced to see him if she doesn't want to.

Sixties Scoop apology

JD: Saskatchewan Premier Scott Moe has formally apologized to the survivors of the Sixties Scoop. During the 1950s and '60s, tens of thousands of Indigenous children were taken from their families and adopted into mostly-white families. In sharing circles across the province last fall, over 200 survivors shared their stories of loss, abuse, neglect and isolation. Today, the Premier told those survivors their government had failed them.

SOUNDCLIP

SCOTT MOE: We've failed the survivors we heard from in the shearing circles, and so many others. We’ve failed their families. And we’ve failed their communities. We’ve failed. On behalf of the government of Saskatchewan, and on behalf of the people of Saskatchewan, I stand before you today to apologize. I stand before you today to say sorry. We are sorry for the pain and the sadness that you have experienced. We are sorry for your loss of culture and language. And to all of those who lost contact with their family, we are so sorry. There is nothing that we can offer that will fully restore what you have lost.

JD: Saskatchewan Premier Scott Moe, apologizing for the Sixties Scoop in the provincial legislature today. Rod Belanger is a survivor, and a member of the Sixties Scoop Indigenous Society of Saskatchewan. He told the CBC Saskatchewan's Bonnie Allen that, while many survivors will accept today apology, he cannot.

SOUNDCLIP

ROD BELANGER: If Premier Moe came and apologized to me today that still wouldn't correct everything bad that happened in my in my world. The board almost split up because of this. We had a vote, and we almost parted ways. We were not going to carry on with this. A lot of us — half of us — felt that they were gonna get something out of the apology. And half of us felt that this is a bunch of [censored]. Sorry the language, and we had we had we had that right to feel like that. And, in in my sense, I saw that there's people that are questioning what we are doing. But then there's a lot of people that are lost out there. There are a lot of people that that that need to find their voice. And a lot of them have. And that's only really a reason why I stayed on board was I loved working with this group and my sense of having to get this this opportunity to give to our people in these talking circles, and in a sense that you're not alone. You're not the only one that's experienced this apprehension era. And there's lots of us. Give them that opportunity to get their voice back.

JD: Rod Belanger is a survivor, and a member of the Sixties Scoop Indigenous Society of Saskatchewan. He spoke with the CBC's Bonnie Allen. Saskatchewan is now the third province in the country to offer an apology for the Sixties Scoop — after Manitoba and Alberta.

[Music: Acoustic guitar]

Shutdown: Democrat

Guest: Tina Smith

JD: There's no wall in sight. And thus, there's no end in sight. By most accounts, there was little progress in talks over the weekend to end the partial U.S. government shutdown, now in its third week. And U.S. President Trump signalled again today that he's not backing down until he gets billions of dollars for a wall on the Mexican border. The White House announced that President Trump will visit the border on Thursday. And he plans to speak about immigration in a televised address tomorrow. Tina Smith is a Democratic Senator from Minnesota. We reached her today in New York.

CO: Senator Smith, as you know, President Trump is still insisting on funding for the border wall. He's headed to the border himself, where he says there is a crisis. He doesn't seem like he's planning to end this government shutdown. How long do you think it's going to last?

TINA SMITH: Well, it's already lasted too long. It started on the 22nd of December. And I just wish the president would consider the impact that this is having on people. This is such a waste of time and money. Taxpayers money and the time of these great public employees who aren't working. And I've been thinking a lot about the federal contractors — the low-wage people who clean offices and work in the cafeterias. And those folks are not getting paid, and they don't even have a hope of getting paid once the shutdown gets wrapped up. I'm working on that.

CO: I know that you have some legislation you're proposing in that direction. But there are a few things it seems like there are slight offers or small offers the White House is making. They say the border wall could be a steel barrier instead of a wall like I guess. And also pledging 800 million dollars to address urgent humanitarian needs at the border, where you know it's dangerously overcrowded. There's two children from Guatemala have already died in custody. Are these not things that would change the thinking at all among the Democrats?

TS: Well, I think that we ought to take a close look at what all the ideas that are on the table. You know the Democrats have all of us have said that we believe strongly we need to improve border security and we need a comprehensive approach to immigration policy in this country, which has been lacking for a long time. But I think sometimes the president spends more time watching cable news when he should be reading the Constitution. He needs to lay out a specific plan — eight hundred million dollars for what exactly? In the meantime, what we ought to be doing is passing these laws that have already passed the Senate with almost unanimous support so we can get people back to work.

CO: But again, the idea of saying the border wall could be a steel barrier. We heard from Nancy Pelosi through the weekend. And on Friday, she was very explicit the Democrats are not going to accept any wall. But do you think a steel barrier is any different?

TS: Well, I think if you call it a barrier, call it a wall, anything that you call it, it is still the political symbol that the president keeps on talking about. And we need solutions not symbols. We need to figure out how to make sure that we have the kind of technical backup at the border so that we can identify people who are bringing in contraband. And we need certainly in places we do need barriers — we have barriers in some places. But this sort of discussion of symbols is I think not getting us anywhere.

CO: And you know that, of course, in the few days hundreds of thousands of federal workers will miss their first paycheck. The president said yesterday that he said he can relate to what they're going through, but he believes that they will make adjustments. That's what he said. And that he believes that many of them agree with what he is doing. Is that possibly true? Do you think that they actually do support what President Trump is doing on the issue of the wall?

TS: Well, I honestly think the president is pretty clueless when it comes to that issue. He doesn't understand I don't think that a lot of these people are like a lot of Americans. They don't get paid, they can't pay their bills. And it's not like they're going to go call some big banker friends of theirs and ask for a little leeway. That's just not the way most people's lives work. I think the fact that he's pretty out of touch with that is pretty clear right now.

CO: A lot of people depend on federal assistance for all kinds of things, even for the most basic things: housing and food support programs. And when those impacts hit as they will in the coming days and already have hit for many, who are going to blame? I mean is there not a strong possibility that they will hold the Democrats responsible because they failed to find a way out of this?

TS: Well, I think that it is clear that the president is the one who is holding this up. I mean the reason that's so clear is because both Democrats and Republicans passed these funding bills. And it was the president's threatening to veto them that is holding this whole thing up. You know the first paycheck — the first missed paycheck — for federal employees is going to be on the 11th of January, and that's when it really starts to hit home. And I know I'm ready and willing to do whatever I can to get this going and to bring this to closure. But it's pretty difficult. It's what we struggle with sometimes is trying to figure out how to negotiate with somebody who is just frankly all over the map on issues.

CO: Well, we also heard Vice President Mike Pence say that they're looking into the legality of declaring a national emergency to circumvent Congress and begin construction of the wall. President Trump wants to be on your national television tomorrow night. That's still being debated with the TV networks is as we speak. He wants to do a live address to Americans about this emergency that he regards is going on at the border. How do you respond to that? What affect you think that's going to have?

TS: Well, I think I, along with Americans all over the country, will be looking to hear what he has to say about where his leadership is, what he's going to do to bring this to a closure tomorrow night. I think it's a good thing that he's going to go down to the border, and I hope that he looks and understands better what's going on. You know I went down to the border right before Christmas and had a chance to look at some of these detention facilities where parents and their kids are being held — some for weeks and weeks at a time. And I came away from that experience even more sure that we need to reform the way we're doing our immigration, and that this policy that the administration is putting forward is doing real harm to kids. I wish he would go to those facilities and take a look. And also understand that people that are coming to our border are coming to present themselves and ask for asylum, and they're trying to do it at the legal ports of entry because they're escaping violence and criminal gangs. And they're here trying to follow our immigration rules as best they can.

CO: We will leave it there. Senator Smith, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

TS: Thank you so much.

CO: Bye.

JD: Tina Smith is a Democratic senator from Minnesota. We reached her today in New York.

[Music: Indie rock]

Dream job follow-up

Guest: Jada Yuan

JD: For the vast, vast majority of us who fill jars with change for months and months just to take a single trip overseas, it was the most coveted job of all time. Over the course of a year, the New York Times would pay you to visit 52 of the most inviting destinations, and publish your thoughts and observations as you went. Thirteen thousand people applied to be the inaugural 2018 Traveler. But Jada Yuan came out victorious. This programme spoke with Ms. Yuan last year, before she set off on her breakneck trek around the globe. Now that her journey's reached its conclusion, we caught up her again, to hear what she's learned — and how she's changed. We reached Jada Yuan in Bangkok.

CO: Hi Jada, how are you?

JADA YUAN: I'm good. How are you?

CO: Good to speak with you. You sound older.

JY: One year. So do you.

CO: I feel older in 2019. Well, you know when we spoke with you Jada, you called it your dream job. Was it your dream job? How dreamy was this past year?

JY: You know it was a very hard year — mixed with amazing amounts of wonder. I can't believe how many places I've seen this year and the kinds of places that I never would have visited on my own. I didn't even know that São Tomé and Príncipe was a country before I went there, and I would say it's probably one of my top spots that I've ever been. It's a little dual-island nation off the coast of Africa — the west side. Yeah, and I dream about that place.

CO: Wow! What is it that you dream about? You've been to so many places in this past year. Why do you dream of that place?

JY: Because it was like going to a dot on a map, and Príncipe, especially is the smaller of the two islands. It's got a population of about eight thousand people. And I went there on the recommendation of some U.N. Habitat workers I met in the airport line. That whole experience there for me was not only about being in this really beautiful place but also about learning about this work that that the UN Habitat is doing to help a community that had been living in former slave quarters on a cocoa plantation, which I know you've written about before. It just sort of opened up my eyes to what I could maybe do afterwards — the things I could be reporting once this project is over.

CO: One of the jobs I thought you could probably get when you finished this is as a logistics expert because the numbers of flights and connections you had to make, leave your luggage here, pick it up there, and find the right shoes, the right clothes for every kind of climate. The biggest job would seem to me is just all the logistics you had to go through.

JY: Yeah, and in my wrap-up article, I said it was 60 per cent, but I think it might have been more. And my friends who were foreign correspondents all say that the job is about 80 per cent logistics.

CO: One of things we talked about, and you write about in your wrap-up article, is the whole experience of being a woman traveler — a young woman traveler — a woman alone travelling. What did you learn about that?

JY: Well, I learned that I don't have to be as fearful as I think I am even walking around New York City. I think that it is possible to go about it not being paranoid, but just watchful, and still allow yourself to have a real experience.

CO: Did you have scary moments?

JY: In Glasgow, going through an Air bnb, I had to pick up my key at midnight on a sort of dark alley while a guy who was on some kind of substance was sort of swaying next to me. And then I went into the building and it was not a nice building. And I think that that is really scary, and it was really brought home by the murder of the woman who was killed in Costa Rica at an Air bnb. And I and I know that the company can't be indicted or anything. But for a woman travelling alone, I think rental apartments are not the greatest if you're in a city where you don't feel totally at ease.

CO: And you have advice for women traveling — for solo women travelling — and I’ll refer people to your article, but I gave you some advice. You asked me for advice before you left. I said good shoes and don't check any bags. Did you listen to any of my advice?

JY: I had good shoes. And I definitely checked bags. But I had to do work, and so I had equipment with me. And at some point, budget airlines were not going to let me just carry that on. So I had to check the bags. But I really only had two baggage mishaps.

CO: What! That’s crazy! You know you must have some sort of traveller’s horseshoe stuck someplace in you because that sounds pretty unique. You did in your last days because you had a lot of a lot of menu options didn't you over his past year — a lot of interesting ones. You tried a lot of strange things. What was the strangest thing? You mentioned something you had in Cambodia that was odd.

JY: Well, the menu said it was fried spicy cow penis. And someone recently corrected me on Twitter to say well you know cows don't have penises. You must have had fried spicy bull penis. And it made sense to us when we read the menu.

CO: Well, it's a delicacy.

JY: I mean it was tender. It wasn’t horrible. It was just the thought was horrible.

CO: You only made one Canadian stop: Saskatoon. Why Saskatoon? I mean it's lovely. Ok, first of all, what time of the year were you there?

JY: Not the warmest time of year — certainly the middle late April because it was right after my birthday. Why did we pick Saskatoon? We picked Saskatoon because of the Remai — the art museum. Also, just because the First Nations culture there is so strong.

CO: Lovely!

JY: I had a great experience doing an overnight teepee sleepover in Wanuskewin Heritage Park. And we had First Nations guides who told us all about their culture. But being on that land, which is just sort of honey-coloured and I don't know it's really full of spirits. There's something about it where you just feel something very profound. Or at least I did.

CO: Well, I hope and wish for good things for you, Jada. And this career of yours wherever it takes you now.

JY: Thank you so much.

CO: And congratulations on your completion. Thank you.

JY: Thank you.

JD: Last year, Jada Yuan beat out thousands of other applicants to become the New York Times 52 Places Traveler. We reached Ms. Yuan in Bangkok, Thailand. And if you'd like to find out more about Jada’s travels, or see some of her awesome photographs from the road, visit our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Ambient]

Part two: Jon Ronson ‘Last Days of August’ audible series

Jon Ronson ‘Last Days of August’ audible series

Guest: Jon Ronson

JD: This is a story about a dead woman. Her named was Mercedes Grabowski. A little more than a year ago, she killed herself. And since then, the writer and broadcaster Jon Ronson has been trying to find out why. You may have heard about Ms. Grabowski's death. She was a Canadian porn star who performed under the name August Ames. Here she is talking about herself in an interview:

SOUNDCLIP

AUGUST AMES: I work a lot, so in my free time I really just I chill out. I had my two cats, Cush and Ninja, I shop at Target, you know?

HOST: Who doesn't shop at Target? Target is the best!

AA: Tarjayyy. Like, I’m normal you know with just like a little crazy job.

HOST I love your snort by the way. So speaking of your dorky, silly personality, we see that a lot of that on your Twitter profile, which by the way for those listening, where can we find you on Twitter?

AA: Oh well, you can find me on Twitter: @AugustAmesxxx.

JD: And there was a lot of activity on August Ames's Twitter the day she died. After making a remark deemed by many to be homophobic, there was a pile-on. The next morning, August Ames was found dead in a park near her home in California. Jon Ronson's investigation into her death in a new audio series called, "The Last Days of August Ames." We reached Jon Ronson in New York. And a warning: this conversation does include talk of suicide and pornography.

CO: Jon, why did you decide you wanted to look into the death of August Ames?

JON RONSON: You know the answer to that changed as the year went on. Initially, the story of August's death was a story about Twitter bullying. August’s husband Kevin had put out a statement saying that he blamed Twitter bullying for her death. And because I'd written a book about online shaming, and because I'd spent a year in the porn world for this show I'd made — “The Butterfly Effect”, it seemed like I was kind of uniquely qualified to tell this story. And I had an idea for the story which completely changed almost immediately because so many unexpected twists and turns occurred.

CO: Let's stay with the first reason what you did it. And what came from the headlines on the day that August Ames died. And just tell us what was going on? What was Twitter all about on that day concerning August Ames?

JR: Ok, so August had tweeted something that certainly came over badly. And what she had tweeted was that she'd been booked to shoot a sex scene with a company called Erotica Acts. And she didn't recognize the name of her scene partner. And so she looked him up, and saw that he had done gay work. And said she didn't want to work with him you know because there's the possibility that he may have HIV. So she tweeted that, and a lot of gay performers were upset. And they told her so you know in very reasonable terms. But then Twitter being Twitter, it quickly became very unreasonable. And people started tweeting you know extremely unpleasant things to her. Probably the most famous of those tweet from a performer said: “You owe the world an apology. Either that or take a cyanide pill.”

CO: Wow! There are just so many twists and turns in this story. But I just want to stay with that first assumption just for a minute. Because August Ames her husband, Kevin Moore, when you spoke with him, he made it very clear to you why his wife had taken her own life in his view. And I just want to play a clip of you speaking with Kevin about his wife, and about what he understood were her motivations.

SOUNDCLIP

JR: Kevin says he has no doubts as to the reason why she killed herself.

KEVIN MOORE: If she hadn't been bullied, she'd be alive right now. It was 24 hours after it started. How can you not see a relationship there? She was bullied by social justice warriors.

CO: So that was what you started with. That was the way your story was going to go when you started out.

JR: Yes, and he laid particular blame on a famous porn star Jessica Drake, who had tweeted things about August that day. And he said that one of the last things August said as she left the house to kill herself was Jessica Drake hates me. So that was the story that we heard right at the beginning. So the very first time Kevin ever talked about it was in that interview to me. But he had also written a statement which he was going to release straight after I interviewed him. And in the statement, he was going to name names. You know it was going to be like throwing a hand grenade in the porn industry. He was going to say these are the names of the people who contributed to my wife's death. And it was the people who had piled it on August on Twitter.

CO: One of those people was Jaxston Wheeler, a porn actor. And he wrote what's considered most horrible of the tweets to say you either apologize or you take a cyanide pill. And this was considered to be just before she had killed herself. And I just want to play that clip of Jaxston Wheeler when you asked him about that because you went after each of these people that were considered responsible according to the husband. This is what Jaxton Wheeler said to you.

SOUNDCLIP

JAXTON WHEELER: When I heard she had died the next morning, my thought process was why? Like who kills himself over being told that they made a wrong statement? It didn't make sense to me. But the whole thing was like wow, there has to be a lot more to this than her just being shamed for making a homophobic comment that she refused to take down, even after the community said that that's what we fight. What she said — the way she said it — was [censored]. So I would approach this whole thing the same exact [censored] way.

CO: So, besides being unrepentant, he tells you something else. What's that?

JR: Well, yeah. You know obviously when he was saying this to me, I was thinking he doesn't sound very repentant. That’s surprising. But then he said something to me that explained it, which was that his cyanide tweet, he said nobody wants to say this because everybody wants to blame me. But my cyanide tweet was written after she had already died. She died at around 3:00 a.m., L.A. time. And his tweet was written about 3 hours later.

CO: And that's the case. You figure out that if the tweet was written after she died, the tweet could not have influenced her decision.

JR: Yes, but then there were the other people who piled in on her. So we didn't know. We didn't know. There was still Jessica Drake, who Kevin on a number of occasions said she was you know at least to a great extent responsible.

CO: And Jessica Drake being one of the just premiere porn stars. August Ames apparently looked up to her where everyone did. She was really at the top of her game. And Jessica Drake, you find her. She agrees to talk to you. And she tells you something that makes you ask more questions. And I want to just play this encounter you had with Jessica Drake.

SOUNDCLIP

JR: It’s at this point in the interview, something happens: Jessica starts to say some mysterious coded things to me.

JESSICA DRAKE: I‘ve become this really weird container of knowledge. People are coming to me telling me, and they’re telling me things about him and her, and their relationship. And so much stuff. And I'm like oh, I can’t listen. I feel in a way like they're trying to tell it to me to make me feel better, and it's just complicating things. And sometimes it just it gets to be too much.

JR: That thing you said about you being a repository of all this information about you know people telling you things about their relationship. Is there anything you can say about that do you feel comfortable with?

JD: It’s so bad. And I feel like somebody needs to say it. But I can’t say it.

CO: Wow! So at this point, Jessica Drake, quite repentant herself, is devastated by the thought that she may have influenced August Ames. But she tells you some interesting things, right? Were you starting to wonder what else is going on here?

JR: Yeah, I mean code to thinks. She didn't want to say it outright because people would have felt, with justification, that she was trying to take the blame away from herself. But, at the same time, she wants me to know that people have been saying things about their relationship. She didn't want to say what people had been saying. But she wanted me to know that people have been saying things, and that was enough. Of course, we had to carry on.

CO: And did you start to suspect August's husband Kevin for having a different or a larger responsibility for her death?

JR: Only because I mean at that stage, only because that's what people kept coming back to. We started asking you know friends and colleagues of Kevin, and we would hear the same thing over and over that you know some people had obviously heard too many true crime podcasts. You know people were saying you know I think murdered her. But what we also heard was more plausible things like he's got a reputation for being very controlling. He may have you know have portrayed that relationship as devoted. But, in fact, she wanted to divorce him. You know the main thing that came up was that he was controlling. And that he was very emotionally distant. So we kept kind of hearing this stuff over and over again. And you know, as I said, we would hear darker things without any evidence. But we would hear you know it's usually the husband. And the other thing we would hear was there were 50 mile an hour winds that night. August weighed 114 pounds, and she took her life by hanging herself from a tree in 50 mile an hour winds. So people were speculating about that. You know is that possible? And then the other thing we started hearing was that the version of events that Kevin told us about the night that August went missing after the Twitter bullying left out some stuff. And one of the things it left out was that Kevin hadn't driven around all night looking for her — but had, in fact, checked into a Sheraton hotel. We didn't know what any of this meant. But what we did know was that we had to distance ourselves from Kevin for a couple of months while we tried to figure all of this out.

CO: You're listening “As It Happens”, and I'm speaking with Jon Ronson about his new podcast documentary — extraordinary seven half-hours that slowly reveal asking more questions as they answer the last batch. And so Jon, you begin that your second episode in a very interesting way. You say this is not a murder mystery. You want to make that clear early on. Why was it so important to make sure people didn't think they were listening to a murder mystery?

JR: It would prey on media ethics if it was. When were making the show, we didn't know. I mean it could have been a murder mystery. You know we just didn't know. But by the end of it, we really do solve the mystery. And it's extraordinary, and devastating, and heartbreaking, and mysterious. But it's not murder. And I just couldn't do it, you know? I just couldn't do that thing that a lot of narrative nonfiction crime people do, which is use suspicion that somebody might be a murderer have a narrative device to keep people listening. I love those shows, but I wouldn’t use their ethical violations. And I just didn't want to do the thing that I do I don't like when other people do it. And it preyed on me and it prayed on me. And it just felt wrong and unfair, and then I just had a kind of epiphany where I say you know what? At the beginning of episode two, I'm going to say that. I'm going to say that there are many reasons why you should keep listening to this. But don't listen to this show thinking it’s going to be a murder mystery. Think of the ethical reasons, you know? I'm sure you feel the same way. The older we get, the more ethics matter, I think.

CO: What you do do is to explore personalities and relationships, and especially this woman August Ames, who also her name was Mercedes Grabowski. Her stage name was August Ames. She was from Canada. And you dig into who she is and her relationships. What did you learn about her?

JR: Well, she was a lovely person — bubbly, upbeat, happy — everybody loved her. I mean that tweet that started the whole thing felt out of character. She came from an Army family in Petawawa, and her brother lived in Alberta. But one thing we learned very early on, and we knew this because August had said so in a podcast interview which got taken down shortly after she died, that she'd been horribly abused growing up by a family member. And it evidently never left her. Whether or not her reasons for getting into porn was because of this — that she was trying to reclaim her sexuality — I don't know. It might have been an element of that. But, at the same time, as her brother James says, you know she liked being the centre of attention. You know she knew she was beautiful. She was a cheerleader. But you know like many porn people I know, she seemed smart, and funny, and delightful. And I don't know whether this would come as a surprise or not to your listeners, but I would say that's something that I see over and over again with porn people. They’re smart, edgy, funny, you know outsiders. They’re likeable people, and that's true of August too.

CO: But you also show that there are very fragile people within that industry. And that, in the course of it, one porn producer gets quite angry with you. She says you're making emotionally fragile people feel guilty. And you're going to cause more deaths — more suicides. How did you respond to that?

JR: Well, I mean I don’t love it. This is a very, very famous porn star. Maybe one of the world's most famous porn stars. I’ve known her on and off for a couple of years. I've always liked her. But she decided that because this story, unlike other stories I've done about the industry, this story could be seen as potentially an extremely negative light because we're looking at the death of a porn performer. She decided that she knew what my agenda was you know without actually being able to see inside my head. I have very warm feelings towards the porn community, and I do not — and did not — see the August story as a way of stigmatizing the industry. What I see it as is a true story about a terrible thing that happened to a lovely person. Great things happen to porn people as well. Some porn people enter the industry, nothing bad happens to them, they make lots of money, and they leave happy, and with no shame. And you know August’s story was different.

This is a quote from you, “It's telling stories about tragedies that create moralities. It's telling these stories that make people realize they have to behave differently to the people who are still alive.” Why do you believe that?

JR: It’s just came out of my mouth after Lisa was saying those you know negative things to me. And I just I think it's true, right? I mean isn’t this what the #MeToo story is ultimately about? It’s teaching people to behave better.

CO: What do you hope that listeners take away from ‘The Last Days of August’>

JR: You know one thing I'm especially proud of is there's a couple of occasions where we really dig into the psychology. You know bad things happen to August, and I think one thing we do really well in this show is look at the psychology of why bad things happen. Like why people behave in bad ways towards other people? And I kind of think that's missing a little bit from the wider #MeToo journalism, which is rightly very much concerned with what happened. You know what did this person do to that person? I think we do that in this show, but we go a little bit further and look into the why of it — looking for psychological inner-cognitive biases, various disorders and the way that they propel us off course. So, personally, I'm especially proud of that aspect of the show.

CO: You start off with a pretty good relationship with August’s husband, Kevin Moore. How was your relationship at the end?

JR: Well, after we distanced ourselves a couple of months, which we really felt we had to because we were hearing you know all of this stuff, and we needed to kind of sift through it and figure it out. So after we'd gone through that process and we reconnected with Kevin, it was kind of surprisingly good, you know? Because we were very open with him — a grieving husband whose behavior has triggered rumors is still a grieving husband. So we were very open with Kevin about you know things that people had said about him and our research and where it was taking us. And you know he was ok with it. You know not always. Sometimes, he got upset and annoyed with us. But a lot of times, he didn't.

CO: But he had ultimately stopped talking with you, didn't he?

JR: Yes, in the middle of August. The reason why, and I think Kevin would probably admit this himself, I think the reason why he withdrew access was because he was going to go to Canada to get August's ashes back to the family. And I think he was just so sad and worried, and I kind of think the reason why he withdrew access at that moment was to kind of deflect his worries and anxious feelings.

CO: Do you think your listeners will be satisfied with how this story concludes?

JR: Yes, the story that we stumbled into was a story about why August died — the many reasons. If it wasn't social media bullying or if it wasn't just social media bullying, then what were the reasons? I think we accomplished what we set out to do. I think we’ve solved the mystery.

CO: Well, John, it has so many twists, so many turns. And I think you did a magnificent job at setting up more answers and questions as you went along, and very gripping. And I really appreciate speaking with you about it. Thank you.

JR: Thank you so much. Talking to you has been great. Thank you.

CO: Thank you. Bye-bye.

JR: Bye-bye.

JD: Jon Ronson's new documentary, "The Last Days of August," about the suicide of Canadian adult entertainer August Ames, is now available for download on Audible. We reached Mr. Ronson in New York. You can find more on August Ames's story on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih. And the number for the Canada Suicide Prevention Service is 1-833-456-4566. The website is: www.suicideprevention.ca.

[Music: Sombre]

Dateline: Huawei tweet

JD: Dateline: China.

[Music: Dateline theme]

JD: In the real world, This story takes place in China. In the virtual world, you might say it unfolded on enemy territory. On New Year's Day, employees at the Chinese technology company Huawei tweeted out a holiday greeting. It read, quote: "Happy 2019 for all of us at Huawei. Our resolution this new year is to give you more reasons to connect to those you care about." Unquote. Then below that cheerful message, the time, date, and this disastrous three-word addendum: "Twitter for iPhone" Yes, Huawei's PR reps sent that message from a device made by their American competitor, Apple. Like the bosses at Huawei, you might be wondering how this happened. There's a fairly simple explanation. Twitter is blocked in China, and so, to use the social media platform, even big players like Huawei have to use a VPN and route through other countries. When the workers had trouble connecting with their desktops, they used a cell phone. That still doesn't explain why the PR people working for Huawei owned a iPhone, rather than a device from their own employer. And it doesn't look like they'll have a lot of spare cash to buy a new one soon: Gizmodo reports that the employees have been demoted, and had their pay docked, because they, quote, "caused damage to the Huawei brand." Unquote. So you know what? I guess in a way it's true. Things were spoiled for a whole batch of people by one bad Apple.

[Music: British pop rock]

Part three: Cyntoia Brown clemency, Cuban crickets

Quebec jaywalking

JD: Quebec's Human Rights Commission is recommending that Longueuil police pay Dominique Jacobs and her family 86,000 dollars in damages. The damages relate to the arrest of the Quebec woman's son and stepson five years ago, for what's been described as "jaywalking while black." This morning, Ms. Jacobs told CBC Montreal that the two young men were cutting across the street form a bus station on Montreal's south shore. Then they were spotted by police.

SOUNDCLIP

DOMINIQUE JACOBS: Their tires screeched, lights went off, both Nathan and Terrelle were grabbed, thrown up against the car. Nathan was asking continuously what did I do? What did we do? Nathan was punched in the back of his head. He was thrown to the ground. Pockets everything they were searched. When my son asked the police officer why are you hitting my brother? He was threatened with pepper spray. They were handcuffed, put in the back of the car, brought back to our house, and this entire time they had no idea what was going on.

MIKE FINNERTY: And it was never anything more than jaywalking?

DJ: No.

MF: Your actual involvement was when the police were already in your house?

DJ: Yes, he was walking around my home with a flashlight, looking around.

MF: What did you think when you came down and saw that?

DJ: I mean there was like about three or four police cars outside. There was two police officers at the front door. There was one walking around my house looking around my house. I thought they robbed a bank. I didn't know what happened.

MF: You thought the kids robbed a bank?

DJ: Yeah. I mean it's a little dramatic. But it was like a crime scene. So I was very shaken obviously, and wondering what was going on.

MF: And what was going on?

DJ: The officer wanted my sons’ I.D., which I got for him. And only maybe five minutes after that did I find out that they were under arrest for jaywalking.

MF: And what sort of interaction where you having with them?

DJ: I asked them to leave. I asked him to go back to the front door. I said could you please stop looking around my home and go back to the front door? There's nothing here. I don't know why you're doing this. You don't have a warrant. I was sworn at. He used the F-word, told me to shut the f up. When I gave him the I.D.. He told me to calm the f down. It was a very you know difficult situation to be in. And he was very aggressive. They were laughing at us.

MF: How did it change the way — the boys were young men now — how they see the police?

DJ: I mean they obviously see them in a negative light, but they're not all bad, right? So I try to teach that to them too as well. But the minute you see a police officer, I have the same reaction, you get defensive and nervous. And even though you didn't do anything wrong it’s like what's going to happen now? What's he going to do? What's she going to do? Your reaction is very different.

JD: Dominique Jacobs was sin conversation with CBC Montreal's Mike Finnerty. None of Ms. Jacobs' allegations have been proven in court. But Quebec's Human Rights Commission has recommended that the Longueuil police pay the Quebec woman, her son, her stepson, and her former partner 86 thousand dollars in damages. That recommendation will now be considered by a provincial tribunal. A spokesperson for the City of Longueuil has said, quote, "The city and police department take racial profiling very seriously. We have taken initiatives in the past to train all police officers on racial profiling." Unquote.

[Music: Hip-hop]

Cyntoia Brown clemency

Guest: Brenda Gilmore

JD: After almost 15 years in prison, Cyntoia Brown is getting her life back. As a teenager, the Tennessee woman was convicted of killing a man who had bought her for sex. She was tried as an adult. And, despite arguing that she was a victim of sex trafficking, she was sentenced to life. Lawyers, celebrities, and politicians have argued for her release. And today, Tennessee governor Bill Haslam granted that request. Brenda Gilmore is a Tennessee State Senator. We reached her in Nashville.

CO: Senator Gilmore, what was it like for you to hear the news that Cyntoia Brown had been granted clemency?

BRENDA GILMORE: I was so happy. I was elated. I just started screaming. I've never met this young lady, but my heart just went out to her when I heard how young she was when this horrible crime was committed. And to know the background that she's come from, and that she had rehabilitated herself. She's done what we want our prisoners to do, which is to make themself better, so when they come out, they won't fall back into that same life of criminal activity.

CO: She went in as a teenager. And she's now in her 30s, isn't she?

BG: Yes, yes, she's been in for almost 15 years. In August, it would be exactly 15 years, as I understand it.

CO: Have you heard anything about how she reacted to the news?

BG: I saw a press release that she presented just saying that she would not let Governor Haslam and people down when she was released. And that she was committing her life to help other young people so that they would not fall into the same position that she found herself. So I know that she's excited, and I'm just thanking God. I was just screaming when I received the phone call this morning.

CO: Why did Governor Haslam granted clemency? What did he say are the reasons?

BG: I have no idea of what was in his mind, but I think I've kept my ears to the ground just to see how the community was feeling about it. Because we have to admit that this was a horrible crime that she committed and we're not condoning violence or killing anyone. But I think the fact that she was just a child, all of us put ourselves in her place to think that this could be our children, our grandchildren, and nieces that could have happened to them. And the fact that we just did not save her at so many different junctures in her life, we as a community, should have been there to help her and to give her some support. Just being homeless enough is enough of a burden. But for a young child or a teenager to have that burden and the other burdens emotionally, it was just a lot to expect from a young girl.

CO: I want to ask you a bit more about that, but just the thing with Governor Haslam for a moment, he said one of the reasons I understand was that she was facing 51 years before she would get any parole. That was the sentence had recently been concluded the courts had said yeah, they're going to uphold that.

BG: Right, right, right, right, she was originally given a life sentence. And then the court said she had to serve at least 51 years. She never would have survived. She probably would have died before she would have been eligible for parole.

CO: What do you know about her early life before she committed this crime at the age of 16?

BG: Everything that I read sounds like it was just such a horrible childhood. That her mom had her when she was 16, that her mother also was on drugs and used alcohol extensively, and she was raped as a child. She had a pimp who forced into prostitution just to put food on the table and to make sure that they had a roof over their head. And I guess the worst situation was this child sex trafficking that a young girl is I think it's difficult enough — challenging enough — an adult woman or adult man to be in that position. But for a young girl, it's even more. It’s just unfathomable.

CO: And her boyfriend and pimp had his nickname was “Cut Throat”. How did she come to be in the home of the man she killed — fatally shot — Johnny Allen, this 43 year old realtor?

BG: She ended up in Nashville out in the Murfreesboro Road area, and then her pimp had put her on the streets to try to raise money. The person that she picked up picked her up for sex and took her to his home.

CO: And she shot him dead there and robbed him.

BG: I'm not certain about the robbing. I can't answer to that. But from the accounts that I've read that may be true. I just have not read that. The accounts that I read is that she feared for her life. That he had shown her all the guns that he had. And that she feared for her life, and thought that she was going to be killed.

CO: I guess the court was convinced that she had shot the man while he slept and then stole his car, his cash, and his guns before fleeing. And that's what the lead detective in the case wrote as an argument against clemency. He said, Charles Robinson, said that Cyntoia Brown did not commit this murder because she was a child sex slave. Her motive was she murdered him for robbery. How do you respond to his statements?

BG: All I can believe is what she has said is that she feared for her life and that's why it occurred. I don't know what happened in that room. I don't think any of us could do that. But we do know that she was a young girl and that he was an adult man. And an adult man should not be in the bed with a young girl. And the fact that she spent almost 15 years in prison I'm not saying anything was right about her killing that individual, but she has spent 15 years in prison, and she has rehabilitated herself.

CO: Senator Gilmore, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

BG: All right. Thanks for calling.

JD: Brenda Gilmore is a Tennessee State Senator. We reached her in Nashville.

[Music: Ambient]

St. John’s ski map

JD: Should you be fortunate enough to find yourself strolling down a steep sidewalk in St. John's, Newfoundland, on a summer's evening, you might describe the experience as exhilarating. Should you be fortunate enough to find yourself strolling down a steep sidewalk in St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador in winter, it's a little more...excruciating. Add a little snow and ice to those hills, and you better strap on some crampons. Recently, local graphic designer Sophie Harrington had enough of the conditions of her city's snow-piled sidewalks. So she decided to do something about the situation. She created a map on which the sidewalk of each street is graded for difficulty — like a ski slope. Here is Sophie Harrington, speaking with the CBC's Andrew Sampson.

SOUNDCLIP

SOPHIE HARRINGTON: I walk to work most days, and you know I live in the downtown St. John's area. And kind of coincidently, my friends and me were talked to last night when I got home from work. And they were talking about our yearly trip to Marble Mountain, and kind of just put two and two together about kind of my experiences walking on the streets, and you know being a bit of an avid skier. And I kind of kind of had this creative idea to you know take a little satirical approach to you know a problem that does face downtown St. John's and other areas.

ANDREW SAMPSON: I do not ski or snowboard. So I may ask for a little bit of a reading of this. You have some streets are in green, some are blue, a lot of them are in black with diamonds on them. Could you maybe sort of explain it for me?

SH: Yeah, for sure. So on a ski hill, if you are a skier or snowboarder, green are kind of they’re the easier runs. So you know if you're just starting off, you'll start with the green ones. So have a lot of kind of the horizontal streets to be kind of looking up the hills are those ones. Blue you know if you're going a little bit better blue is an intermediate run. Black would be considered you know an expert, and a double black diamond would be the hardest of the hard, you know? Don’t go down that unless you’ve skied lots of times before. So you'll see on the map you know as Prescott Street I put a double black diamond. That’s my walking route to work most days. And you know last week, end of the week, it's a pretty busy street. None of the sidewalks were really clear. I was walking in the road, standing in the middle of kind of rolling cross. And just trying to find you know kind of safe way to get to work. I know this go traction and mad a lot of people smile. But you know if this results in a meaningful discussion about solutions and what we as a city believe is good snow clearing, what are our turnaround times for good snow clearing, I think hopefully you know this incites a discussion about how we can learn to be better, and also accept that we should be better, I think.

JD: Sophie Harrington is a graphic designer in St. John's, Newfoundland. Her new map rates the condition of her city's steep and slippery sidewalks as if they were ski hills. She was speaking with CBC St. John's journalist Andrew Sampson.

[Music: Hip-hop]

Cuban crickets

Guest: Alexander Stubbs

JD: The events are so riddled with mystery and conjecture that it's far too pat to just file them under the catch-all term "Cuba Attacks". Beginning in 2016, American and Canadian diplomats posted in Cuba complained of hearing consistent, high-pitched sounds, and this was followed by health symptoms ranging from headaches to memory loss to cognitive impairment. As the number of stricken officials grew, the United States pulled the majority of its diplomatic staff out of the country. The Associated Press obtained a recording of the sounds, which could shed light on what — or who — the culprit may be. Here's what it sounds like:

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: A high-pitched squeal]

JD: Now, no one has definitively figured out what is causing the weird symptoms yet. But researchers believe they've found the culprit behind those sounds. Alexander Stubbs suggests that that recording is not proof of sonic weapons, nor targeted microwave surveillance — but of something far more natural. Mr. Stubbs is a graduate student at the University of California, Berkeley. We reached him in Tampa, Florida.

CO: Mr. Stubbs, we just heard a bit of this sound that you believe is the source of the mysterious sound heard by diplomats in Cuba. What do you believe is the source?

ALEX STUBBS: So, first of all, we can only really speak to the sound that was in the recording released by the Associated Press. And I believe that the source for that sound is actually a calling cricket — so in this case the Indies short-tailed cricket. And then, interestingly, we can look at the pulse structure of individual sound pulses and show that it's a cricket that's been echoed, or where the calls reflected off of some sort of surface.

CO: So you're saying that this sound that has made so many people say they're ill, that this is so disturbing, known as “Havana Syndrome”. You say the sound they're hearing is that of a cricket?

AS: Well, I want to be really careful here. We only analyzed one recording that was released by the AP. And according to their reporting, there were multiple recordings that were made by U.S. personnel stationed in Cuba. And those were given to the AP and the Cuban government for analysis. Most of them had a similar acoustic signature, but we only were able to look at one, which was in the public domain.

CO: And you specifically think it might be something called the Indies short-tailed cricket? Why do you think that is the one that is making the sound?

AS: First, it matches the acoustic power spectrum. Secondly, it matches the pulse structure of an echoing cricket. And third, and most interestingly, it has a characteristic frequency drop through each sound pulse. That's a direct result of the biomechanics of cricket sound production. As to why we think it's this particular species of cricket, interestingly, the Indies short-tailed cricket has the fastest wing stroke rate or pulse rate of any continuously calling cricket, which actually makes it pretty indicative.

CO: Have you heard of anybody having these kinds of reactions to hearing the sound of the Indies short-tailed cricket?

AS: Well, I myself have heard the sound of the Indies short-tailed cricket conducting fieldwork in Grand Cayman, and I suffered no ill effects. I think the important thing here is that what we'd really like to clarify is that this recording has been in the public domain for so long. And it would be terrible if U.S. or Canadian personnel stationed overseas were to hear this recording released by the AP and then go out and hear something that we're now certain is an insect, and think that potentially they were at risk health impacts — because crickets are not known to cause any health impacts in humans.

CO: But is it there's something specific about the sound that this kind of cricket makes that is different than other crickets is it louder than others. Is it more annoying than others? Is it more annoying than others?

AS: It is extremely loud. I find it extremely annoying, and I can easily see that people in stressful posts overseas might find it extremely annoying, especially since this particular type of cricket doesn't live in large amounts of the U.S.

CO: The Globe and Mail newspaper in Canada interviewed the Canadians who are suffering from the symptoms of what's called Havana Syndrome. The Canadians have been a bit more circumspect about what their reaction to this, but this is from the interview with one of the men that he woke to a grating, screeching noise feeling his head, deafening him. And this goes on for 20 to 30 minutes before it eventually fades and grows slower. Does that sound like it possibly could be crickets?

AS: Yeah, I’d say that that is fairly consistent with it being crickets. In a lot of the reporting the index case here on the U.S. side, went to open a door and when he or opened the door the sound stopped. I think that was attributed to it potentially being a malicious attack, but it also could just be a cricket that was startled and decided to stop calling.

CO: I mean these are seasoned diplomats, right? These are people who have traveled the world. They've lived many places. They know what kinds of things might be going on. They've had experiences with unusual phenomenon perhaps like insects. Do you think they wouldn't have figured that out?

AS: As a field biologist that spends upwards of four months a year looking for animals by their call, it's often hard for me to determine what certain sounds are of tropical animals. So I'd say it's well within the realm of possibility that somebody might think that this is something nefarious when in fact it's really not. All we can say is that the recording released by the AP is consistent with a cricket and a particular species of cricket. It's entirely possible that U.S. and Canadian diplomats were attacked by some completely other means. I think that we really need to look carefully at what the evidence is for the sound. Is this just a common cricket that also happened to coincidentally be calling while something else was happening? Or is it possible that the recording is of a cricket, but it just so happens to be similar to some kind of attack phenomenon?

CO: But are you confident that the sound that they have heard — that you heard on the AP recording — is that of a cricket?

AS: I am extremely confident that the sound and the AP recordings are cricket. And I think we know what species it is.

CO: And what have you heard back from anyone in the United States in the government who believes that this is something much larger than just a sound?

AS: I think it will take the U.S. government a little while to look at this evidence and look at a lot of other evidence that I'm sure they have that they don't want to share publicly. And I just hope that this can be one piece towards a more productive discussion, and looking at what the actual sources for all of these signs and symptoms that U.S. and Canadian diplomats have reported.

CO: All right. We'll leave it there. Mr. Stubbs, thank you.

AS: Thank you so much.

JD: Alexander Stubbs is a graduate student at the Department of Integrative Biology at the University of California, Berkeley. We reached him in Tampa Florida.

[Music: World music]

NFLD beard

JD: On Saturday night, Newfoundland musician Chris Andrews reinvented himself.

SOUNDCLIP

ANNOUNCER: The new Chris Andrews

JD: The frontman for the band Shanneyganock took to the stage, donned a cape, and submitted his epic shaggy beard to the razor for the first time in years and years, and years. Mr. Andrews had agreed to shave his trademark whiskers as a fund-raiser, to help the family of a little girl named Jess buy a wheelchair-accessible van. With the last-minute help of a local business owner, the campaign hit $25-thousand dollars in donations. After his close shave, Mr. Andrews spoke to "St. John's Morning Show" hosts Fred Hutton and Krissy Holmes.

SOUNDCLIP

CHRIS ANDREWS: Just happy we could do it. And it was very nice to see a bunch of people come together to do something really cool.

KRISSY HOLMES: So Chris, how his Jess and her family reacted?

CA: Well, I haven't had a chance to see Jess yet since the concert and the shave. But I got a picture of her with a big smile on watching me get my beard shaved off, so she obviously liked it.

KH: So I mean what's the plan? Is this your new look, or are you planning on growing that thing back again?

CA: Oh, I've already started, Krissy. No, I don't think maybe I'll have a big beard like that anymore. And I think my mom's really happy about that.

FRED HUTTON: You got second day growth on the go? Can you scratch the phone across your cheek?

CA: Here you go.

[Sound: Scratching the phone on a cheek]

FH: This is Radio after all.

JD: That was Chris Andrews, of the band Shanneyganock, talking about shaving his trademark beard, on the St. John's Newfoundland morning show.

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January 7, 2019 episode transcript

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