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The AIH Transcript for March 19, 2018

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello, I'm Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening. I'm Jeff Douglas. This is “As It Happens”.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight:

CO: Tour de forces. The Conservatives say there is no peace to keep in Mali. But Canada is joining the U.N. mission there anyway. Tonight, I'll ask the Defence Minister to explain why.

JD: State of the detonations. Just hours after the police chief in Austin, Texas, called for open dialogue with a serial bomber, there's another explosion. And the mystery becomes more perplexing, and more urgent.

CO: Serving a hirer purpose. When he was fired hours before he was due to retire, former U.S. deputy FBI director Andrew McCabe faced a pension problem, until Democratic Congressman Mark Pocan stepped in.

JD: Profiling cabinet. Thanks to a whistleblower, we have heard allegations that operatives at a company called Cambridge Analytica harvested tens of millions of Facebook profiles to create propaganda in support of Donald Trump.

CO: Bump and rind. At the World Championship Cheese Contest, France is knocked down a few pegs, when judges show a surprising soft spot for a Camembert from Canada.

JD: mmmmmm. And… back behind bars. After her bike was stolen, a Brooklyn woman made a public plea for its return. And now, she's glad she didn't backpedal, because, thanks to some kind strangers she can front-peddle once again.

JD: As It Happens the Monday edition. Radio that presents her with a master's in cycleology.

[Music: Theme]

Part one: Mali peacekeeping, Cambridge Analytica, Brooklyn bike thief

Mali peacekeeping

Guest: Harjit Saajjan

JD: It's not clear how many will join the United Nations mission, or when they'll arrive. But Canadian peacekeepers are going to Mali. Today, the federal government confirmed it would be deploying six helicopters — for medical evacuations, armed escort, and protection against Islamist militants there. The announcement wasn't welcome news to Canada's opposition parties. Today, the Conservative Party said there is, quote, "no peace to keep" in Mali. Here's what Lisa Raitt, the party's deputy leader, asked Prime Minister Justin Trudeau in Question Period today.

SOUNDCLIP

LISA RAITT: The question I'm asking is this: what is the risk associated with our Canadian soldiers? They deserve to know this. This is the most dangerous mission in the world right now. This is something we're sending Canadian soldiers into without any information at all from this government. It's absolutely deplorable. Canadians deserve to have the answer. How many soldiers are projected to be lost in this mission?

SPEAKER: The honourable prime minister.

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: Mr. Speaker, unlike previous government, we've committed to open information and discussion with the members opposite — with all members of this house — on the nature and the moving forward of missions like this. The previous government chose to wrap itself in the flag and use special forces as photo ops while not informing the House about anything. What we're going to be doing is being open and responsible with all members in this house as we move forward into reengaging in U.N. peacekeeping missions.

JD: Just a bit of a fiery exchange in Question Period today, over Canada's announcement to join the UN Peacekeeping Mission in Mali. Harjit Sajjan is the Minister of National Defence. We reached him in Ottawa.

CO: Minister Sajjan, as you know, this is called “the most dangerous UN mission in the world” in Mali. What are the risks to Canadians going in there?

HARJIT SAJJAN: First of all, I want to say that it is for our government that we're involved with multilateral organizations whether it's the coalition or NATO and the United Nations. But when we look at the contributions that we make what contributions can we make that’s actually going to have an impact. We as a government have decided our peacekeeping contribution — not just in military sense, but a whole of government — and anywhere where we send our troops, we are going to make sure that they're going to have the right impact on the ground. But more importantly, that we're going to look at all the risk and go in to mitigate them as well — making sure that they have the appropriate equipment, the proper training, and right rules of engagement. And the rules of engagement are set out by the Chief of Defence Staff, and our troops will be able to have self-defence regardless of where they go.

CO: This is a Chapter VII mission, is it not?

HS: I know that it has a lot of complexity to it. When I visited Mali, some of the groups had signed on to the agreement and some haven't. It's mostly in the right conditions so that we can actually move the progress forward.

CO: OK, I just mentioned Chapter VII because on a chapter VII mission, which the MINUSMA mission is, those deployed are able to use force in the interest of that mission. So will Canada see itself in combat?

HS: Our contribution is about providing the air task force. It’s going to be two Chinook helicopters, providing logistical and medical support for the mission. There will be four armed Griffon helicopters for self-defence. And as I stated, we'll always make sure that our troops have the right rules of engagement to be able to protect themselves.

CO: We're not going to be on the ground?

HS: This is an air task force that’s providing support for the mission. Our contribution is providing a very important key enabler for the mission.

CO: You know that in Mali right now, we're dealing with a civil war — very protracted with the Tuareg rebels and the Malian army. It’s a very volatile unpredictable Islamic extremist movement there. Four million people apparently facing a possible and imminent famine in the country. So what are we going to do?

HS: It's not just about looking at one nation. It's about looking at the region itself. This is not the peacekeeping of the past. We have to look at all the complexities, especially when it comes to radicalization, the disparity between wealth. And we as a government that's why everything that we announce is about a whole of government approach. Great work is already being done when it comes to development. When I visited our embassy in Mali, we already saw the great work and programs that they were funding. So yes, it is a very complex mission, but we need to be able to provide all the necessary troops. Canada can't do it alone, and the United Nations can't do it alone. And this is why it's important for nations with key enablers to step up and provide the right support and get into what we call smart pledging. And that's what this is about making sure that missions have all the key enablers. And Canada now is stepping up in Mali, providing a one-year rotation of the air task force.

CO: This is a big ask for Canada because this is Canada's first return to African peacekeeping since two very fraught missions: Somalia and Rwanda. And you know very well that those missions deeply affected Canada's confidence as a peacekeeping nation. Why should Canadians feel that this mission in Mali will be any more successful?

HS: When we conducted our defense policy review, one thing that we did hear from Canadians across Canada was that they wanted us to be engaged in peace support operations. They wanted their Canadian armed forces to be able to conduct operations that they can actually provide some stability in the world. However, they also stated that they want to make sure that they're properly equipped, properly trained, and that they have the appropriate mandate to be able to execute that role. If I’ve taken into account Romeo Dallaire’s experience in Rwanda, in fact, I had Romeo Dallaire, and Louise Arbour accompany me on my fact-finding mission last year on five different countries. Where I was able to not only meet with the key leadership but actually have them right there to be able to listen from their experiences what are the things that we need to do. And so the decision that we have made in the government was not done in isolation. We have spoken of experts — we’re speaking with people on the ground — and the decisions that we have made is not just our idea. This is about the collective ideas from the UN, some of the nations that are providing troops on the ground, the African Union as well. So we have taken into account, and we need to do our part because we cannot be secure at home if we're not engaged in the world. And Canada does need to do its part. It used to have much more contributions in the past. We've demonstrated that taking a very thoughtful, methodical approach; we can have an impact. We've done that in Iraq, and we'll do this with the United Nations as well.

CO: I just have a few minutes — or moments — with you left and I want to ask just because this is you say that Canadians do support peace support operations. But at the same time, they're wary of this, they’re wary of what we're going into. Just in the moments we have left, give one phrase of reassurance to Canadians that this is the right thing for us to be doing.

HS: When we looked at the conduct analysis of the Mali mission and other places, we had to look at it based on our key that Canada can bring to the table. What impact can we have? This was very important to provide the troops on the ground that are already doing great work to provide a key enabler that will have a significant impact. There's only a few nations in the world that can provide key enablers like we do, whether its helicopters or our tactical airlift fixed-wing aircraft going into Entebbe. That can provide tremendous support to be able to move the progress for the mission on the ground.

CO: We'll leave it there Minister Sajjan, thank you.

HS: Thank you.

JD: Harjit Sajjan is the Minister of National Defence. We reached him in Ottawa.

Cambridge Analytica

Guest: Paul-Olivier Dehaye

JD: Cambride Analytica prefers to remain in the background. But now, it is blinking in the spotlight, because of how it allegedly used data to try to shape the voting habits of millions of people around the world. It's been revealed that the firm was able to harvest personal data from some 50-million U.S. Facebook users while employed by the Donald Trump election campaign. And today, an undercover Channel 4 documentary revealed the UK-based company's CEO, Alexander Nix, talking about using bribes, sex workers, and former spies in a pitch to a prospective client. Paul-Olivier Dehaye is a data protection specialist. He runs a startup that allows individuals to find out how their personal data is being shared online. He's been investigating Cambridge Analytica since 2015. We reached Mr. Dehaye in Geneva.

CO: Mr. Dehaye, what was your reaction when you heard this undercover footage of Cambridge Analytica CEO, Alexander Nix, allegedly describing strategies it could use to discredit political opponents.

PAUL-OLIVIER DEHAYE: Well, I might be one of the few people in the world who wasn't surprised actually. SCL — the parent company of Cambridge Analytica — has a history of influencing elections all around the world, and using really dirty tricks to do so. They also have a history of military contracting and psy-ops, which involves quite a lot of acts that just don't fit ethical frames.

CO: He speaks of in this video offering to send very attractive women to a candidate's house. What would be the purpose of that? What's the game there?

POD: Well, I think he explicitly even refers to Ukrainian prostitutes. I don't know? I guess it would again be a smear tactic trying to film this and then share it around.

CO: Do you know what point Cambridge Analytica became involved with trying to assist the Donald Trump campaign?

POD: So that seems to have happened at the beginning of the summer, 2016.

CO: And then as far as we understand that Stephen Bannon became involved with Cambridge Analytica, and the considerable amount of money from the Mercer family — a very wealthy American family that was contributing funds — and that's when we get into the issue of this data breach with Facebook. Do you know how that happened? How it came to be that the personal data of 50-million Facebook users in the United States got harvested for data?

POD: Well, in January 2014, towards the end of January, Alexander Cogan — a psychologist working at Cambridge University — told Cambridge Analytica of the possibility of using social media profiles to build psychological profiles. So basically told them that there was a possibility to link their old work psy-ops work with the new digital tools, and they started pursuing that opportunity, and eventually, started getting a large amount of data on lots of U.S. users.

CO: Did they gather the data legally?

POD: Most certainly not. So what they did was they exploited Facebook's tools to get access to the profiles of those 50-million people indeed without ever getting consent for this type of data processing. So while it was technically not a hack of security systems, it was definitely a data breach in the sense that this was an illegal transfer of data.

CO: They didn't have permission to do the kind of data processing they were doing. But the person Alexander Cogan — who apparently was the academic that was involved with this — he did have permission from Facebook to be harvesting it for academic purposes. So was this just some sort of gray area, or was it really truly illegal?

POD: Oh, it was truly illegal, yes. It was a gray area in the sense that Facebook is not policing it, but it's not because Facebook is not policing it that there isn't a law forbidding it. But when Cogan started downloading so many profiles so quickly, it triggered Facebook's security systems. But then he talked to an engineer at Facebook and explained he was doing research, and that allowed him to you know reinstate his account and keep on going.

CO: But this is a massive amounts of data that was being downloaded. So Facebook may have been aware, but I mean was this kind of willful ignorance on their part?

POD: Yeah, you say it. I mean it's part of the way they operate that the system is designed so that this is allowed through technical means, and they have little will in policing this indeed. Now, where there is willful negligence is afterwards. When there was a December 2015 article, Facebook's reaction was to send a letter to the different third parties that were involved asking them to delete the data. And they those other parties signed, and Facebook was really happy with this and stopped there. They never, for instance, told the users whose data had been leaked that the data had been leaked that way.

CO: We know that the reason why the Trump campaign was so interested in this because Stephen Bannon believed that you could build a psychological profile and be able to be able to manipulate that profile — those voters — to turn in a certain direction. Is there any evidence that actually works or worked?

POD: The proposal here is not to directly influence the voters. The proposal is to influence the discourse around the whole election. So to try to affect what people tend to share with each other and even what Facebook thinks people want to see. So it's much more subtle.

CO: Cambridge Analytica issued a statement today denying the claims —strongly denying the claims made — by the various news agencies, and saying that they immediately severed their contract with the company, with the academic who was mining the data. It said they had adhered to all data protection regulations and deleted all data that was harvested in ways that were not ethical or legal. Does that reassure anybody?

POD: Well, Cambridge Analytica also claimed through intricacies of European data protection law that there were not really responsible. They were not really the controller, etc. I've seen those contracts. They don't match what Cambridge Analytica has issued. So it's clear that they're still lying on this particular issue.

CO: All right. I appreciate you trying to make sense of this for us, Mr. Dehaye. Thank you very much.

POD: Thank you.

JD: Paul-Olivier Dehaye is a data protection specialist. He runs the startup PersonalData.IO. We reached him in Geneva.

Brooklyn bicycle thief

Guest: Amanda Needham

JD: Bicycles are awesome, they are a wonderful, reliable form of transportation. There's one minor… well, kind of major problem with them: they disappear. And it is a very horrible feeling to return to the place you know you parked your bicycle, only to find a wheel gone, both wheels gone, the whole thing gone. It is common to weep, to shriek obscenities. It's less common to make a large sign addressed to the thief, and post it in public. But that's what one Brooklyn woman did. And the response to her sign exceeded all her expectations. Amanda Needham is the stolen bike owner. We reached her in Brooklyn,

CO: Amanda, unfortunately, the experience of having your bike stolen is all too familiar. But what provoked you to make up this sign and put it outside the house?

AMANDA NEEDHAM: I mean I use my bicycle every day or at least I used to. And I love being on a bike in New York City. It's a great way to get around and see things. And my day job is working as a substitute in different schools. I have to go to a different place every day, and sometimes it's easiest to do that on a bike. So I was pretty sad, and I honestly hoped that the person who stole it needed it more than I did. And for me, writing the sign was a little way that I could at least acknowledge what had happened and speak a bit of truth and maybe have the person see it because I decided to leave it up for a whole week so that maybe there'd be a little thought next time. Maybe it would come back; I didn't know. I just knew I wanted to at least acknowledge what had happened and be a little creative in the process. And in the back of my mind, I was slightly curious to see what would happen.

CO: And now this wasn't just some little piece of paper you taped up outside. Can you describe this sign?

AN: So I painted about an 8-by-3 foot sign, and I put it up in front of the whole building that I live in, and I painted it in big yellow letters. And it said: “to the person who stole my bike, I hope you need it more than I do.” Next time steal a hipster’s Peugeot, or don't steal at all. And then in small print, I wrote: “It cost two hundred dollars used, and I needed it to get to work.”

CO: And you had a P.S.

AN: The P.S. was: “or bring it back.”

CO: That would be wishful thinking. So they didn't bring it back, but what did happen? You had tremendous amount of community response. What was the first knock at the door that you got?

www.cbc.ca/aih.

Canadian Camembert

JD: What's tough on the outside and soft in the middle? The psyche of a French cheesemaker — also, several French cheeses, including one that originated in Normandy in the late eighteenth century. According to legend, a priest fleeing the Reign of Terror wound up seeking shelter at the farmhouse of one Marie Herel. She made cheese. And after incorporating some of the techniques the priest mansplained to her, the result was a richer, creamier cheese named for the community wherein it had been developed: that being Camembert. Well, belated congratulations, France. But times have changed. Earlier this month, at the World Championship Cheese Contest in Madison, Wisconsin, a Canadian Camembert was named champion: Camembert L'Extra from St-Hubert, Quebec. And down in 12^th — behind three other Camemberts from Canada, six Camemberts from the U.S., and one Camembert from New Zealand — was an actual Camembert from Camembert. So, now, instead of wine, some French aficionados have chosen to pair their cheese with sour grapes. First, there's the complaint that Camembert can't even be Camembert unless it's from Camembert. And then there's the argument that, to get the official AOP, protected-status designation, a true Camembert should only be made with raw milk — not pasteurized, as is used in the winning Quebec Camembert. After the Canadian win, the head of a French group that advocates for a purist approach to cheese-making said, quote, "Nine out of ten AOP camemberts will be pasteurised and industrial-like, vulgar, mass-produced offerings. Camembert will sink inexorably into mediocrity." The Frenchest possible response, which overlooks the obvious: raw or pasteurized, there's no use crying over spilled milk.

Part two: Austin explosions update, McCabe firing

Austin explosions update

Guest: Ellen Troxclair

JD: "We want to understand what brought you to this point, and we want to listen to you." Austin Police Chief Brian Manley made that appeal last night, to whomever planted three deadly bombs in the Texas capital this month. But just a few hours after the chief's call for dialogue, there was another explosion — the fourth in Austin since March 2nd. Police now believe they have a serial bomber on their hands. Ellen Troxclair is a city council member in Austin. Last night's attack was in her district. We reached her in Austin earlier today.

CO: Councilwoman Troxclair, you were on the scene today. What can you tell us about what's going on there?

ELLEN TROXCLAIR: It's just really scary. This is the fourth in recent string of bombings that we've had all over the city now in Austin. The most recent was in my district in a neighborhood called Travis Country, where people are still sheltering in place. We have over 500 federal agents in town on the ground helping our local police department to address this issue and make sure that these bombings stop.

CO: And those 500 officers at this point have had between four and five hundred leads and conducted hundreds of interviews. And so it was interesting the plea that the police were giving: they’re saying to the bomber we hear you with your explosions, but we don't know what you were trying to say? What is it that you want us to understand? What do you make of that?

ET: I mean I'm still confused about it myself. I think that this most recent bombing is certainly a departure from what we've seen in recent weeks. Previously, they were all in the east part of Austin with the packages being left on a doorstep. The one today, of course, was a trip wire, and it was two 20-year-old males who were walking down the street, and the bomb was detonated that way. So this is a higher level of sophistication, which increases the fear and uncertainty in the mind of the local citizens. And that's in a different geographical location in Southwest Austin. So I mean it seems like the message is kind of that no one is really safe right now. And that we need to use extra diligence and just awareness to make sure that anything that we see that is out of place is being reported and then followed up with by our local police department.

CO: What's the mood in your district — in Southwest Austin?

ET: I think people are scared, and rightfully so. This is a normally really safe part of a city, a really quiet neighborhood where this happened. And I think that people had gotten the message that you know they were being diligent about checking packages on their doorstep and making sure that they weren't opening things from people that they didn't know, et cetera. And so to kind of have this shift I think really caught people off guard.

CO: The police are saying the area is in lockdown for most of the day while they do their work, but what about the two men who were injured in this? What can you tell us about how they are?

ET: They are in stable condition. They were seriously injured. Their injuries are not life-threatening, but they were seriously injured. And again they were just walking down the sidewalk. And it sounds like the explosive device was you know anchored kind of between two I think one was a backpack maybe one was some kind of sign with the wire between and it was just detonated when they were walking past.

CO: But how do you as a city councilor, or how do the police, how do you tell people to be vigilant and to take precautions? It’s one thing with packages delivered to your door and checking to see if they are legitimate, where they came from, all that. But just walking down the street that you could set off a trip wire, how do you how do you counsel people for how to protect themselves?

ET: Yeah, you know all I can do is really kind of get the information out to my constituents. I think the flipside of that is not only to be cautious, but also to be proactive about trying to solve the crime and trying to find out who's responsible and prevent it from happening again, which we have done with significantly increasing the reward for information that leads to a capture to one-hundred-and-fifteen-thousand dollars. I hope that that's a pretty big incentive for anybody who knows anything to come forward. It is interesting to me that we have large events in town right now. You know South By Southwest, we have a golf tournament coming up, and yet this seems to be really focused on targeting Austinites — targeting people who are living here. So while it's good that tourists don't appear to be the target, it's scary for people who call Austin their home because we don't know what neighborhood this might travel to next. We don't know what message this person is trying to send. But, of course, they're clearly not scared of injuring or killing children.

CO: We know the first two victims of these bombings were African-American men. They have both died. There was a third victim: a Hispanic woman. She was severely injured. Now, these two latest victims are white. Police were considering at some point that this was a hate crime, is that still the case?

ET: You know I've heard them say that they're not ruling anything out, but I think certainly with the direction that it's taken last night that scenario is not quite as likely. This is a predominantly white neighborhood, so I would be surprised if this was racially-charged to do something in this neighborhood.

CO: What do you tell your own family? How do you instruct them?

ET: Yeah, I mean we’re not going to be taking our daughter on walks around the neighbourhood this evening or this week or probably until we can get the situation solved. Although you want people to be able to go about their daily lives and not be kind of ruled by fear, you do want to be careful, and you do want to take precautions. And I guess I share the same fear that my constituents do. You know you don't know where or when something might happen next. And I was really hopeful that going through the weekend you know with really no incidents that hopefully they were getting closer still finding who is responsible or the person responsible had decided after he killed a 17-year-old that maybe enough was enough. And, unfortunately, that's not the case. I’m just hoping that it doesn't escalate. You know the one thing that gives us hope is this neighborhood is probably more likely to have some kind of home surveillance equipment than maybe other parts of town. And so I'm hoping that people are turning in that kind of evidence to the police, even if it wasn’t directly on their doorstep, maybe their camera caught a car or caught something else driving by the house that could be helpful in finding whoever did this.

CO: All right, we'll leave it there. But we'll be following this story. Councilman Troxclair, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

ET: Thank you so much.

JD: Ellen Troxclair is a member of Austin City Council. We reached her earlier today in Austin. For more on this story, go to our website.

Canada Reads: Cherie Dimaline

JD: Reading a book is often a peaceful, solitary activity — unless you're on Canada Reads. Then it's a group activity. And it can get loud. This year's battle of the books kicks off in just a few days, with five prominent Canadians arguing that they've found the "one book to open your eyes." Each panelist has chosen a Canadian book to defend over four days of heated debate. And each one expects to come out on top. This year, we'll be airing readings by the authors of those five books. Tonight's excerpt comes from a novel that speaks to an audience well beyond its target demographic. In 2017, The Marrow Thieves won a Governor General's Literary Award and the 50,000-dollar U.S. Kirkus Prize — both in the category of young people's literature, and both in the same week. Author Cherie Dimaline set her book in a future where everyone in North America has lost the ability to dream. Everyone except Indigenous people, who are on the run from those who believe their bone marrow holds the key to dreaming. In this passage, the book's fleeing protagonists stop for the night and gather around their leader, Miig.

SOUNDCLIP

CHERIE DIMALINE: Miig explained it one night at the fire. Dreams get caught in the webs woven in your bones. That's where they live in that marrow there. He poked at the crackling wood with the pointy stick till the shadows were frenetic against his tanned face. Till they slid into the longer shoots of hair into the front of his mohawk. The tendrils he swept up and padded into place atop the shorter brush with the care of a pageant queen. He didn't make eye contact with us. The motley group seated in a loose semicircle around the fire, beneath the trees where he commanded place. I imagine spider webs in my bones, and turned my palm towards the moon, watching the ballet of bones between my elbow and wrist twist to make it so. I saw webs clotted with dreams like fat flies. I wondered if the horses I'd ridden into this dawn were still caught in there like bugs, whinnying at the shift.

CD: Miig nudged the rounded stones placed around the perimeter of the fire with his boot. You could see where the holes in his sole had been patched up with sap and scavenged leather. How did they get in there? RiRi — now seven — was always curious and not shy with her questions. You are born with them, your DNA weaves them into the marrow like spinners. Miig answered. The flames tried to settle and he prodded them to dance again. He added that's where they pluck them from.

JD: That's Cherie Dimaline reading from her book, The Marrow Thieves. Jully Black will champion Ms. Dimaline's young adult novel next week during Canada Reads 2018. The debates get underway on Monday, March 26^th — on CBC Radio, TV and online. If you’d like some more information, go to: www.cbcbooks.ca.

McCabe firing

Guest: Mark Pocan

JD: When former deputy FBI director Andrew McCabe was fired late on Friday night, he was just hours away from retirement. U.S. Attorney General Jeff Sessions said he gave Mr. McCabe the axe for leaking information to the media — and, quote, "lacking candour" about it under oath. President Donald Trump spent much of the weekend celebrating the decision on Twitter. And a White House spokesperson suggested that the timing was no accident — that Mr. McCabe should lose his retirement benefits. Well, now, a Democratic Congressman is trying to stop that from happening. We reached Representative Mark Pocan earlier today in Madison, Wisconsin.

CO: Representative Pocan, what offer have you made to former deputy FBI director Andrew McCabe?

MARK POCAN: Well, given what happened — the firing of Andrew McCabe not even days before his retirement — was really something that was done intentionally and cruelly by the White House and by the Attorney General. It was to send a message that anyone who decides that they're going to talk to Mueller during the investigation or anyone who is going to present information there's a price to be paid. And in this case, the price to be paid was the pension. And I think you know most people all we expect is human decency, and this certainly didn't qualify for that. So we reached out and said you know Andrew McCabe, we have a position for you. If you need a couple of days or for that matter a couple of weeks to get to your pension, we're going to help assist that. We can't let someone like the president just get away with thug-like behaviour. And I think what we saw was exactly that.

CO: And so what job would he actually have with you?

MP: So we have proposed, and we've reached out to his folks, and we're hoping to connect in between flights and things today is you know election integrity. I have a number of bills to try to make sure that we have elections that work. You know with his background at the FBI, I think you know he can really provide us with some great assistance to make sure that we could have some of the best ideas in place to protect our elections and make sure that everyone is guaranteed that right to vote.

CO: And are you confident that what you're offering, what you're going to be able to create: the conditions in which he will be able to fill out the time he needs to achieve his pension?

MP: Well, from what we understand, it will. I mean I think once you're under federal employment as you continue under federal employment that should be enough. And I think again the president tried to essentially destroy him by doing this. You know when you go after someone's pension if you are of a modest income — I grew up in a lower-middle-class family — that's trying to destroy that person, their family, their future. We need to be a check and balance in the system. And I think you know the check that I can provide is that if a few additional days or weeks of federal employment allows Mr. McCabe — after 21 years of dedicated service — to get his retirement pension, then we're going to do that. And we’re also going to let people know that you know you don't have to be intimidated by the president when it comes to speaking your mind and telling the truth.

CO: At the same time, it was the Attorney General who did this. He says that Mr. McCabe was fired because he was leaking to the press. And then he lied about it before a hearing. So aren’t those pretty serious charges?

MP: No one believes that here in the Heartland. In the real world outside the Beltway, you know what we all think is we've seen previous reports, whether it be Devin Nunes delivering one to the White House last year or even the House Intelligence Committee Republicans putting out when this year, all of these reports are proven to be either false or are faulty in their logic because there is a serious effort to make sure that this investigation doesn't continue. So I'm going to take it at 21 years of great service, and we're going to make sure that this person is protected, and anyone else in that same position has should be protected as well.

CO: But at the same time, I hear what you're saying, but it is not just Mr. Jeff Sessions, it seems to be the Justice Department has a report.

MP: Sure, and some days, the president saying he's going to fire the Attorney General. Some days, he’s going to fire somebody else. You know we range from petulant manchild behaviour from the president sometimes to actually outright maliciousness like he did firing someone a couple days before their retirement. So the real smell test is not that this was not done by the president. This was clearly done by the president, even in December; he raised the issue in one of his infamous tweets about his pension. You know it's pretty clear you don't have to connect a lot of dots and you know directly where this idea came from.

CO: You’re referring to the tweet in December. Mr Trump said, “FBI deputy director Andrew McCabe is racing the clock to retire with full benefits — 90 days to go?!”

MP: Precisely, and other comments and tweets over the last year we've seen. I mean that's the issue with this president: not only does he not have human decency gene that most people have, but also he can't help himself but to continue to say too much and talk too much. And in this case, tweet too much. And because of that again I feel pretty confident this is a move to try to derail the investigation and to send a message that anyone who decides to question him or put information out to that investigation will be punished.

CO: How significant or important is Mr. McCabe to the Muller investigation?

MP: Well, I mean he's someone who is as high up as you can get in FBI intelligence, who's been around for a lot of the conversations, and allegedly kept notes from these conversations. And that seems to be what troubles the president so much. So you know I think it's very crucial. And the fact that he's still tweeting about him even after the fact — gleefully tweeting about firing him — tells me there's a whole lot more there. And I just keep seeing that circle of this investigation tighten closer and closer to the president, his family, his associates, and I think that's why the president's lashing out so extremely.

CO: But doesn't it also show that President Trump is following some kind of a strategy to shut down the Mueller investigation altogether?

MP: And that's the fear. You know again this weekend having his lawyer suggest that it should be ended. Clearly, that's I think the endgame they're trying to get to, and stop anyone from even talking during the investigation. I think Congress isn't going to allow that. I've been disappointed that Speaker Paul Ryan and Senate leader Mitch McConnell haven't stood up more; we are a coequal branch of government. We have to be that check and balance. Luckily, people like Lindsey Graham and some others on the Republican side have said something. They think he did fire Miller in some way that would lead to that constitutional crisis that Lindsey Graham brought up.

CO: Just finally, the Washington Post is reporting that Mr. McCabe went to the FBI before he was fired. He was pleading to keep his job until he could get his full retirement benefits. What has Mr. McCabe actually said about your job offer?

MP: So we have not personally connected, we've connected to his people, he knows there is an offer — as well as other offers, by the way. I mean other members have since then made offers, and I don't really care that he has to come work for me. What I want to make sure is the man gets his pension. So you know wherever he can land a job in federal employment I think is a good thing.

CO: All right, we will be watching. Representative Pocan, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

MP: Of course. Thank you.

CO: Bye bye.

JD: Mark Pocan is a Democratic Congressman from Wisconsin. We reached him earlier today in Madison.

Ketchup slices

JD: Ketchup is what's known as a "thixotropic" liquid. In scientific terms, that means it's a non-Newtonian fluid that's thick and viscous when static, but becomes thinner and less viscous when agitated. In layperson's terms, that means it's an uncooperative idiot that's all the more frustrating because it's so delicious. It's like an ex you remember fondly, until you actually need it to show up on time for something. And they refuse to change. Now, if you've ever wondered whether part of you is actually attracted to that messiness and unpredictability, you're about to find out, because you'll have the option to do without both — at least, if the Kickstarter for "Slice of Sauce" reaches its goal of just under 20,000 bucks Canadian. The words on the site tell us that "Slice of Sauce" is, in fact, an individual slice of sauce that you, quote, "layer on your burgers, sandwiches, wraps, and more, for a delicious burst of flavour, and a perfect no-mess bite every time." The photos on the site tell us that "Slice of Sauce" is, in fact, a square, solid, portion of ketchup leather, the approximate colour of a beet, or a scab. The people behind the product didn't invent it. A few years ago, an LA chef who was apparently infuriated by burger sogginess came up with his own recipe. But the "Slice of Sauce" folks have their own recipe, which has a shelf-life of a full year, and they're out to mass-produce it. If the crowd-funding campaign works, we'll finally have a choice: bottle of obstinate non-Newtonian fluid, or square portion of well-behaved, slightly gross-looking, non-soggifying condiment. And we'll find out whether we still gush over the stuff that so often doesn't, or enjoy a well-deserved thixotropical vacation.

Part three: Stephen Hawking theory, New Zeeland post office, Uncensored Playlist

David Whiddom obit

JD: New Brunswick boxer David Whittom wanted to be the Canadian cruiserweight champ. And he made it ten rounds in the title fight before being knocked out. But he didn't wake up again: after ten months in a coma, David Whittom died last week. He was 39-years-old. Mr. Whittom suffered a brain hemorrhage in that May 2017 championship fight against Saskatoon's Gary Kopas. At the time, Mr. Kopas told As It Happens that he felt the referee allowed the fight to go on longer than necessary. But in October, the New Brunswick Combat Sports commission investigation concluded there was no wrongdoing. Jelana Zerdoner was David Whittom's girlfriend. Earlier today, she talked about the loss on CBC's "Information Morning".

SOUNDCLIP

JELANA ZERDONER: What was the hardest thing? It’s to accept that it's really finished right now. Because all ten months that he was in coma, and unconscious, it was like OK, I understand the situation, I accept it, but I knew that he’s still here — he's still alive. But when I heard the news — when they called me to tell me that that he’s dead — I was like oh my God, now it’s really true. It's real. He left, and can't see him anymore. It's the feeling that actually I don't have a word to explain what we feel inside. Oh my God, he was a handsome man. He was like big heart. He was like everything to me. He was always the person who was so strong.

JD: That was Jelana Zerdoner on CBC Radio's "Information Morning" earlier today. Her boyfriend, New Brunswick boxer David Whittom, died on Friday. He was 39-years-old. Mr. Whittom had been in a medically-induced coma since May of 2017, when he suffered a brain hemorrhage in a championship fight.

Stephen Hawking theory

Guest: Thomas Hertog

JD: We may yet have more to learn from Stephen Hawking. Last week, of course, the renowned theoretical physicist died at the age of 76. Over his career, Mr. Hawking made enormously important contributions to science. And even in his last days, just weeks before he died, Mr. Hawking and his colleague — Thomas Hertog — submitted a version of a final research paper. It's called "A Smooth Exit from Eternal Inflation?" To tell us about the theory they were working on, we reached Thomas Hertog. He's from the university K.U. Leuven. We reached him near Leuven, Belgium.

CO: Professor Hertog, I'm sorry for the loss of your colleague and your friend.

THOMAS HERTOG: Good evening. Thank you.

CO: How important was it to Stephen Hawking that he should put out this last paper?

TH: In fact, he was very fond of this last one. It's about a problem we were struggling with for quite a few years, which is the multiverse. This paper really is about an attempt a new way to try to get control over the multiverse, and turn it into a testable scientific framework. That had been Stephen's goal for quite a few years.

CO: We know what the universe is because we live in it. But what is what does he mean — what do you both mean — by multiverse?

TH: Well, you should think of it as many universes in a way. So not just many solar systems, but really an ensemble of separate worlds, and so of these universes are completely empty. And others are full of black holes. And yet, others have stars and galaxies and life.

CO: And how do you how do you and Stephen Hawking know that?

TH: That's because we have a model of the big bang. And out of this model comes not a single universe but many of those universes. But we want our model of the big bang to say something about our universe — the one which we live in. So you can already begin to see that this multiverse is basically a nightmare for cosmologists. Somehow, if anything is possible, if a multiverse is too gigantic, too wild, then our theory won't say anything about our own universe. And so it's useless as a scientific theory. That was the paradox or the crisis facing cosmology for quite a few years.

CO: How did Stephen Hawking feel about that? Was that something that was quite a great concern to him too?

TH: Exactly. This was very much on the top of his mind. Hawking did not like the multiverse. But on the other hand, he realized it's very hard to avoid — pretty much any reasonable model of the big bang which could come up with lead us to a multiverse. And so at some point, a year or two ago, he told me all right, let's try to control the multiverse. And so we set out, we went back to the foundations of our theory of the big bang, and we tried to improve those, to strengthen those mathematically. And we were led to a significant constraint. We were led to tame the multiverse, so to speak. And reduce it, so we could turn it into a manageable theory of the universe. That’s what this paper is about.

CO: I’m just picturing this extraordinary conversation you and Professor Hawking must have had about the big bang, and also all right, let's tame this multiverse, let’s get some control over this thing as though you're talking about household chores or something. What were these conversations like?

TH: Right, basically that's what it is. I mean we kept struggling with it, and talking about it. And I would go to Cambridge, or he would come to Belgium, and we would sit next to each other shoulder by shoulder and talk about that for hours and hours. Of course, behind my stories, there's a technical side to it, but that's a lot of direct interest.

CO: It must have been quite extraordinary to have these conversations?

TH: Oh, it was wonderful. Of course, Stephen always had interesting new ideas. Science was an adventure for him. And you were never sure where it would take him. Yeah, it was lovely.

CO: What stage is your paper now? Will be published? Will it be peer-reviewed?

TH: Well, as far as we are concerned, it's done, of course. We sent it off to a journal, where I suppose it's being, as you say, peer-reviewed.

CO: And when will people be able to see it?

TH: That you should not you should not ask me. I don't intend to interfere with the refereeing process. We'll see.

CO: Just finally, since you said that that the Professor Hawking he didn't like the multiverse, what do you think his last work to be issue — to be published — what would he say about that? This is something he didn't like was the thing he'd actually end that writing about finally?

TH: yes, but you're right, it's a kind of paradox. Let me be more precise. Hawking didn't like the kind of uncontrolled multiverse where everything is possible. But I think he did fancy the idea of a sort of reduced version of the multiverse, on which he could get a handle, because a truly unique universe seemed a kind of impossible impossibility to him. So, in a sense, he was looking I think for a kind of refined or intermediate position on this issue.

CO: Professor Hertog, it's lovely to talk with you about the universe and the multiverse and big bangs and your friend Stephen Hawking. Thank you so much.

TH: You're welcome.

CO: Bye bye.

JD: That was Thomas Hertog, a colleague, collaborator, and friend of Stephen Hawking. For a link to their paper, got to our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

New Zeeland post office

Guest: Tammie McGrath

JD: Rain, sleet, snow, heat, gloom of night, et cetera: we know that, ideally, postal workers will deliver regardless of weather or darkness. But you'll notice there's nothing in the old U.S. Postal Service creed about "vagueness of address". Even the toughest umbrella and the strongest flashlight can't help you there. But in the small New Zealand village of Cust, the local post office insisted on precision, in the face of extreme imprecision. The package it received had the following address on it, quote, "on a farm, situated up a long drive with cows, opposite Cust pub or thereabouts". Unquote. Tammie McGrath is the manager of the Cust service centre. And that is where we reached her.

CO: Tammy, what did you think when you received this package and you saw the address?

TAMMIE McGrath: I looked at it, and thought this has to belong to someone fairly close. The usual protocol would be to return it, and I just thought I’ll just hang on to it for a couple of days, and see if I can track down the owner. I'll just put it to the side for a minute while I continue with the rest of the post and we'll have a look at it.

CO: And how did you even get to you given that the address was “On a farm, situated up a long drive with cows, opposite Cust pub or thereabouts”?

TM: There's only a few businesses within Cust. Cust is only about 450 people, so we have, obviously, our business and the pub and there's another business between us. But we actually do the local post, so that would be the first port of call for post to come to us, and we have postboxes that we put it into. But that wasn’t giving me an hints when I read that address.

CO: Describe the package, if you would?

TM: The package just came in one of our prepaid bags that they have within New Zealand. You can pay a certain amount. And it just literally had that address that you've said with no surnames, no anything. It did have a return address on the back, but it had no phone numbers or anything like that. I thought well, before I go and send it back, I’ll investigate it a bit more. Because, obviously, an elderly person had written it, and I didn’t feel that I just wanted to send it back without a bit of an effort. I thought the community needed to, you know, get involved and help us find them.

CO: Any other names? Any other references on the package?

TM: No. It had no surnames. And you know when I actually thought about what was situated across the road from the pub, there wasn’t any long driveways. So I thought that's not even possible. I just thought about Ok, is there ones further down the road? Is there a street with the actual cows? You know, I just put more thought into how I was going to find that out, you know. And then I just started asking a few locals before we actually decided to put it on Facebook.

CO: What happened after you put it on Facebook?

TM: Well, then we started getting people tagging it — we, obviously, got Cust community page tagged in it, so that they could send us a little bit further. A couple of people that worked for the council had seen it so they said, oh, we'll see if we can find anything out. And it just sort of gained traction the more and more people saw it. And as a few locals came in in the morning, getting their newspaper and stuff, I asked them You know, do you know Phil and Kay? Because I know a lot of Phils and I know a lot of Kays, but I didn’t know phil and Kay, you know? So it was how are we going to marry this together? So, we just put a few more feelers out, and then we started getting some calls back.

CO: And did you find Phil and Kay?

TM: We did! Within about two hours, we actually had them. A man called up and said I think this could be for us. And my staff member said, well, come on in and talk to Tammie and we'll see how we go.' And he came down and he said, 'Oh my name's Phillip,' and I said, Oh, is it? And he says yeah. And I said, Well what makes you think this parcel's for you?' And he said here’s my card, and he showed me a card, and on it is a picture of a green pasture with lots of cows and Phil and Kay and their last name on it. And he said, I actually am aware of the person, and I said well, what's their name? Because I had the sender's address on the back, and I said what's their name? And he told me their name, and I said, well, this parcel's for you!

CO: Do you have any idea what the package was? What he was getting?

TM: Yeah. At the time I didn't, obviously, it was just sort of a parcel. You don't have any idea of what's in there. It's not like international post where you have to declare it or anything. So, once he got home and they opened it had been some hand-sewn things from a lovely lady that had visited their property. And it was just a hand-sewn clothes peg apron and a table cloth inside. So, she'd obviously been to see them and appreciated, you know, their New Zealand-ship so to speak. They shared a lunch and what not, and wanted to thank them, and that's what she sent them in return.

CO: She made something, or she got something made for them and sent it off.

TM: She made it herself. She's an elderly lady. She's About 70, and she doesn't see very well. She had an idea of where she’d gone, but she didn’t know where she’d gone, which is why such an unusual description. And the address of where these people live is actually about ten minutes out of Cust — it’s not even in Cust itself.

CO: And have you ever had a package like this before?

TM: We do get the odd letter or small parcel. Usually, things addressed like Main Road, Cust or something like that. You know, a little bit unusual where you have to think a bit more. But, generally, on the return address when it’s something like that, it’ll be like a grandchild sending it to their grandparents, and it’s have a surname that you can sort of match up with the post, and that sort of thing. It doesn’t take too much, but this one was very unusual. So it really did take, you know, a little bit of extra help from the community. And we do try and go that little bit further because it is a small town, you know. We do like to do what we can to assist the locals in any way we can, you know. So that was certainly something that we needed a little bit of help with, putting it on Facebook, you know?

CO: And we noticed on your Facebook post that somebody tells another story about getting a letter — this is another rural New Zealand story. That it was addressed to, “The old house with a pretty garden across the road from the big white goat with one horn.”

TM: Yeah, yeah. There's been multiple stories on our page of people saying very similar things like that one, which I thought was quite funny. And then they also had one that was addressed to a person that lived in some unusual place, that lived there five years previous, and it got to their new address. So it's not like they even lived close by. They'd lived like 400 kilometres away from where their old address had been and they still got it! So that was really good. It just shows that a little bit of help and a little bit of community and customer service and it just goes a long way you know.

CO: Well Tammie, it just goes to show that it mattered a lot to her to get that package to somebody, and you took the time to do it. So thank you.

TM: Thanks Carol.

CO: Bye bye.

TM: Bye.

JD: Tammie McGrath is the manager of the Cust service centre. We reached her in Cust, New Zealand.

Melnyk out

JD: The Ottawa Sens aren't having the best year. They're nearing the end of a losing season. And they're on their third CEO in 14 months — who also happens to be the team owner, Eugene Melnyk. Well, Sens fans have a message for Mr. Melnyk. And just to make themselves perfectly clear, they've put that message on four billboards around the city, with a fifth to follow next month. The billboards say: "Melnyk Out." Spencer Callaghan raised money from disgruntled fans to pay for the billboards. He spoke to "Ottawa Morning”'s Hallie Cotnam this morning — in front of one of the billboards, as traffic rushed by.

SOUNDCLIP

SPENCER CALLAGHAN: Well, the traffic is intentional. We picked this spot because, like the other spots, it has a lot of traffic. So it was kind of our goal. And later today, they'll see the billboards that the fans paid for that say “Melnyk Out” and that express the views of the fans that are looking to basically save this team.

HALLIE COTNAM: We spoke a few weeks ago about this, Spencer, on “Ottawa Morning”, and a lot of water under the bridge since then. How does it feel to have this happening today?

SC: I mean it feels good. I mean I'm doing this for the fans. I mean more than 420 fans donated to this campaign. We raised over 10,000 dollars. I mean a billboard is literally a symbol, and this billboard is meant as a symbol of the fans discontent with the direction of the franchise.

HC: So more than 10,000 dollars raised. Also, people put comments on the page — the fundraising page. What kind of feedback were you getting?

SC: The feedback has been overwhelmingly positive. People are sad. I mean quite honestly, people are sad that this team is going through such a tough time, and that doesn't just mean on the ice. Quite frankly, this has nothing to do with the product on the ice. This has to do with the organization as a whole. And they're happy that there is a way now for them to have a voice and be heard. Because, unfortunately, if you simply don't buy tickets, your empty seat doesn't speak, and so you need a way to have the fans voice out there. And really that's what this is all about.

HC: The week after you started this campaign, Eugene Melnyk sent out this appeal — this letter — to season ticket holders praising the team's passion, and emphasizing his commitment to the team, et cetra, et cetra. Did that defuse some of the tension?

SC: No. In fact, if anything, I would suggest it made it worse because the letter really came off as kind of tone-deaf. One, the letter was only sent to season ticket holders, which kind of says something in itself right there. But second, it was just a very vague letter without a lot of concrete actions involved. And really what Sens fans are looking for is we're looking for a team that looks like it has its act together both on and off the ice. I mean the Ottawa Senators have the smallest front office in the NHL. It has one of the smallest hockey operations and scouting departments in the NHL. I think most Sens fans are perfectly okay with the fact that the senators are not going to spend at the cap. We understand that it's not a rich market team. But if you're not going to spend at the cap then you have to do the little things around the edges that you can do to be successful. You can't do that with the smallest front office in the league. And quite frankly, you know now we have our third CEO in the past 14 months — who's Eugene Melnyk himself — and I just I question the level of chaos and uncertainty.

HC: There’s some more traffic.

SC: And the level of chaos and uncertainty in the front office just does not give fans a lot of confidence.

JD: Spencer Callahan is a very invested Ottawa Senators fan. He spoke with “Ottawa Morning”’s Hallie Cotnam this morning, in front of one of his “Melnyk Out” billboards.

Uncensored Playlist

Guest: Iris Fuzaro

JD: Oppressive regimes have a habit of controlling the flow of information. So the truth is sometimes, well, it can be little bit awkward for those in power. So how do you thread the news through the firewalls? You sing it. That's the idea behind the Uncensored Playlist put together by the group Reporters Without Borders. Iris Fuzaro is one half of the songwriting duo behind the project. We reached her in Sao Paulo.

CO: Ms. Fuzaro, first of all, what exactly is the uncensored playlist?

IRIS FUZARO: Uncensored Playlist is about articles that were censored in some countries. And we discovered that the only way that we can talk about these articles in these countries is about turning it into music. So we chose some articles, and we turned it to music, so people in those countries could talk about it, could listen about it, could even read about it, could know what really is happening there.

CO: OK, so why is it through music is the only way to release this information — these stories about what's going on?

IF: We discovered that the government of these countries can't censor the music that are on the streaming service.

CO: And they can block they can block other sources — other ways of getting news out or disseminating information — but they can't block the songs?

IF: Yeah, they can’t block the song in music service.

CO: And just how do the songs get written? How do you collaborate with the journalists?

IF: They send us their articles we. Lucas a I — who’s working with me, the music director — we talk with these journalists, we read their articles, and we try to understand the main idea, and transform it into a poem.

CO: Right, and then you put that to music.

IF: Yeah, exactly.

CO: The articles you are able to get them — they can actually get these articles out of the country — but they want to disseminate the articles within their own countries?

IF: Yeah, exactly. That's why we make two versions of each song: one in English and another in the local language.

CO: You're working with Reporters Without Borders, and that's an organization that endeavors to protect journalists, and help them with free speech, and also to help them if they get into trouble. What are you doing in order to protect these journalists? They continue to live in the country, and they find this this way to get around the censors. How do you protect them?

IF: Most of them are not like even living in the country anymore. So they live in exile. The thing is it's not about protecting them. It's about like telling this story is protecting these country people, and the things they have the rights to know.

CO: Are they in any danger of doing these songs? Is there any threat to them that you perceive?

IF: We talk a lot with journalists, and if they feel safe about doing that. And they were totally okay with that. Most of them don't even live in their countries anymore. And they told us it's not about themselves. It's not about they are security if they are safe or not. It’s about their people. People have the right to know what is really happening with their country, with their media, and with their government.

CO: Let's hear some of these songs. Let’s hear this one called “Introducing Chaos”. Can you tell us what this is?

IF: “Introducing Chaos” I will try to summarize as best I can — it's a long article. They tell us about a trial that seems to be more a political trail than a judicial one. They had no proof against a man. But there was some massive media pressure on it. And media and government works together. So this man had to leave the country dealing with serious corruption accusations in Vietnam.

CO: OK, let's hear that song.

SOUNDCLIP

[Music: A song called Introducing Chaos]

CO: All right, and that's the English version, and you say there will be one in Vietnamese as well. And there's another one, we’ll play another one right away. “Hunger Games”, what country is that from?

IF: It's about Egypt.

CO: About Egypt, let’s hear that.

SOUNDCLIP

[Music: A song called Hunger Games]

CO: Okay, you’re saying that's a song out of Egypt. What's that song about?

IF: It's about Basmah — who is the journalist who wrote it — she compares the Egypt the government with that famous movie “Hunger Games”, and when people are starving in dealing with a lot of problems, and they are like a rich part of society. If these are stories in these songs that the regimes do not want released, when they start trying to block music streaming services in order to prevent this dissemination?

IF: Well, I think we will try to find another way.

CO: All right, well thank you very much, Ms. Fuzaro.

IF: Thank you

JD: Iris Fuzaro, is one of the writers behind the Uncensored Playlist. The other is Lucas Mayer. We reached Ms. Fuzaro in Sao Paulo. For more of their music, look up "Uncensored Playlist" on Spotify. After that conversation with Ms. Fuzaro, we called Reporters Without Borders to ask more about the safety of the journalists involved in the project. They told us that all but one of the journalists have left their home country for security reasons, and that they all understand the risks of doing any kind of journalism in oppressive countries. They added that the organization has experience in getting journalists out of countries on short notice, if the need arises.

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March 19, 2018 episode transcript

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