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The AIH Transcript for March 26, 2018

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello, I'm Carol.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening, I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight…

CO: Expelling bee. Canada joined 17 other countries in sending their Russian diplomats packing, and Canada's former Foreign Affairs Minister, John Baird, says it may not accomplish much but it was the only option.

JD: Separation trial. For organizing Catalonia's independence referendum Carles Puigdemont is arrested in Germany and may be extradited to Spain where he is wanted on charges of rebellion and sedition.

CO: A tragedy compounded. When a fire rips through a mall in Siberia many of the schoolchildren inside are unable to escape because exit doors were locked and fire alarms didn't go off.

JD: The whole shooting mismatch. When America's oldest gun-maker files for bankruptcy protection some blame a Trump slump — the dip in gun sales after the election of a self-proclaimed true friend of the gun industry.

CO: Sleeping with the fishes. A video suggests the deep sea angler fish probably has a tough time giving its offspring the talk. Well, kids your dad bit into my underbelly and permanently fused onto me absorbing the nutrients until I needed sperm.

JD: And…un-missed connections. Airline passengers rejoice. Instead of arriving in London from Perth Australia exhausted after multiple layovers, you can now take a 17-hour direct flight we're calling “The Whizzer of Oz.” As It Happens: The Monday Edition. Radio that will happily take the Perth of least resistance.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: John Baird on Russian Expulsion, Siberia Mall Fire, Australia 17-hour Flight

John Baird on Russian Expulsion

Guest: John Baird

JD: It hasn't happened on this scale since the Cold War. Today, 18 countries announced that they would be expelling more than 100 Russian intelligence officers — that includes Canada. In a statement Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia Freeland called the nerve agent attack on a former Russian spy in Salisbury U.K. a quote “despicable, heinous and reckless act.” Minister Freeland announced that four Russian diplomats would be expelled and three others with plans to come to Canada would no longer be permitted to do so. We reached out to Minister Freeland for an interview. She declined. But we did reach Canada's former Foreign Affairs Minister, John Baird, who served in Stephen Harper's Conservative government. We reached John Baird in Toronto.

CO: Mr. Baird It wasn't that long ago that you were Canada's Foreign Affairs Minister would you have expelled the Russians as Chrystia Freeland did?

JOHN BAIRD: Absolutely. I think it's the right thing to do. Joining our closest friends and allies to support the United Kingdom was just right thing to do.

CO: What's the effect of doing something like this?

JB: You know, I think it's largely symbolic. I don't think, regrettably, that Putin is going to care much about this at the end of the day. Clearly Putin wanted his fingerprints on what happened in Salisbury. He wants people to know that if you mess with Moscow there's going to be a price to be paid.

CO: When you refer to Salisbury of course, this is where the Russian and his daughter were contacted the nerve agent that they're very sick from. And of course the U.K. blames Russia for that. Just a question about if it is an effective tool, why did you never expel Russians, particularly during the annexing of Crimea?

JB: I mean, I think we brought in very tough and targeted sanctions on the Russian Federation to target the government and their economy so they would pay very heavy tangible price that was, you know, right, fair and appropriate.

CO: But those sanctions didn't help did they? It’s still the status quo.

JB: They had huge consequence on the Russian Federation and its economy and on targeted individuals. But they haven't got Russia to change course, which is regrettable and unfortunate. And I think the Harper government and certainly Chrystia Freeland now, thinks it's completely unacceptable that you use military force to redraw the boundaries of Europe in this century. And it required a very tough and targeted response.

CO: If the sanctions that you applied after Crimea had no effect, and the expulsion of the Russians that you believe will have very little effect because Mr. Putin simply won't care, what can you possibly do to modify the behaviour of the Russian president?

JB: I mean, short of a military response, it's really hard to imagine that that can take place. I mean, the Russian economy is already basically a large gas station and so much of Eastern Europe requires that energy to fuel their lives and their economies. So unless we were to do an oil boycott, which would be a natural gas boycott, which would be, obviously, you know, tantamount to shutting the lights out in big parts of Europe, there's not much else that would have much of a response.

CO: There's something else that Chrystia Freeland said today in her release, we just want to ask you your thoughts on this. The reason for expelling four members of Russia's diplomatic staff and the other three won't be approved. The four have been identified as — this a quote — “intelligence officers or individuals who have used their diplomatic status to undermine Canada's security or to interfere in our democracy.” We've been trying to get an answer to what — some expansion on that in the course of today. What do you think she is referring to?

JB: Well, I think it wouldn't come as a surprise to you or to most Canadians, that the Russian government does exercise in spying. What's the biggest surprise was the interference in our in our democracy. I'd like to learn more about what that entails.

CO: Well, what questions does that statement rise for you?

JB: It just makes you want to know. And obviously we've seen the allegations and the charges by Robert Mueller, the special counsel in the United States, about 14 specific individuals who were interfering in elections. I don't know much about what a Russian Federation has done to Canada's democracy, but I think all of us would like to learn more about that.

CO: Now we're seeing this reaction because of what happened in England, in Salisbury. But why do you think that there has been so little political will in Canada or elsewhere to take on Russia over its role in Syria? We have just seen last week, we saw the envoy for war crimes try to even to present a report on war crimes in Syria to the UN Security Council, Russia successfully blocked that, other members of the UN Security Council voted along with Russia to do that. Where's the political will to take on the Syrian issue?

JB: I don't think there's any lack of political will in Canada to get tough with the Putin government in Moscow. Canada took one of the most robust actions in the world with Stephen Harper as prime minister. And Chrystia Freeland, I don’t think there's anyone accusing her of going soft on Russia. She, obviously as a Canadian of Ukrainian heritage, has been quite passionate in taking actions against the Russian Federation, hence the actions today. I guess the reality is, is that when you've got a nuclear armed power with a veto on the Security Council and a leader who doesn't seem to care about Western public opinion. Short of an oil embargo or a military response there's really not much that I can think out that will change its behaviour in the short term at least.

CO: In this release from Chrystia Freeland she refers to the attack with a nerve agent in Salisbury. She talks about the Assad regime and the complicity there, the annexation of Crimea, the continuing fighting in eastern Ukraine, interference in elections and disinformation campaigns. That's like six things she's pointing to as a reason why to expel these diplomats. If that's the rap sheet at this point, why are we just now getting these people expelled? Do you think that Chrystia Freeland should have acted more robustly and acted sooner?

JB: This is not the first action that has been taken. Going back to the very day the annex of Crimea took place, to their involvement in Syria, to their invasion of eastern Ukraine, to the actions today. I think there's a long series of initiatives which have been taken where we've been able to condemn in strong terms, by both deeds and words, the provocative actions taken by the Kremlin.

CO: How large an action, how strong an action is it when you — different countries including Canada — all of these countries expelled diplomats?

JB: What is disappointing to me was, the United States took strong action, Canada took strong action, 14 countries in the European Union took strong action. But 14 countries who were part of the European Union didn't take strong action today. You know, we need to use our voice to try to get other countries to join the actions that Canada has taken condemning this type of behaviour.

CO: That's why I'm asking earlier is that do you think that Canada is doing enough as a middle power, as it as a power that could use soft power to influence. Do you think Canada is using it’s position well enough?

JB: I'm not sure what soft action will actually do to respond. If we could have an energy blockade of Russia, that would be demonstrably more effective and hit Putin the pocketbook where it counts. But the fact that we can't export oil and natural gas outside of the United States obviously hurts our capacity to be able to be an alternative service provider to these countries.

CO: And what are the chances that could happen? That would that would be the strongest most definitive action.

JB: Well, it's easy for those of us in Canada, which don't import Russian oil and natural gas to say let's turn off the lights in Latvia. Getting market access for energy is so important so that the liberal democracies aren't reliant on importing oil and natural gas from Russia.

CO: All right we'll leave it there. Mr. Baird, thank you.

JB: Pleasure to be with you.

CO: John Baird is Canada's former foreign affairs minister. He was in Stephen Harper's Conservative government. We reached him in Toronto.

[Music: Oboes]

Siberia Mall Fire

Guest: Anna Nemtsova

JD: Like kids everywhere, dozens of children in eastern Russia were enjoying a break from school at a mall. Then yesterday fire ripped through the shopping centre in Kemerovo, Siberia trapping visitors inside. At least 64 people are now dead — many of them schoolchildren. Some of those who were in the mall said the fire alarms did not go off, and that doors were locked. Anna Nemtsova is the Russian correspondent for Newsweek and The Daily Beast. We reached her in Moscow.

CO: Anna, why did so many people die in this fire?

ANNA NEMTSOVA: Well, you know, Carol it was an awkward, horrible tragedy. I know that any fire is a terrible tragedy, but this particular accident is really hard to comprehend. Children were locked up in a movie theater on the fourth floor of this mall. There were several theaters, a daycare, a skating rink and a playground on the fourth floor. I interviewed people in Kemerovo this morning who told me that there were at least 500-600 people on the top floor when it caught fire. And quickly, within minutes, the entire floor was filled up with black smoke. One of the journalists I spoke with said that even in daylight it's hard to find staircases on that floor. It is like a maze.

CO: Why didn't the fire alarms go off? Where were the fire exits?

AN: We heard different versions, and one was that something was wrong so with electricity, so the alarm system didn't work, the firemen did not come in time. People were trapped on the roof and for 40 minutes they were not evacuated — many of them died. People were jumping out of the windows. There were the people on the staircase who were trapped in the crowd. So lots and lots of people were just choking on the smoke.

CO: And why were the doors locked?

AN: This is probably the key question about the doors to the movie theater where lots of kids where locked movie theater saying that we cannot breathe, we are locked in — one girl said goodbye. This is just a horrible, horrible tragedy. The door was locked, some say, because of that administration didn’t want people without tickets to get in.

CO: There is also a story that apparently the security officer who got a call about the fire turned off the public announcement system.

AN: Well, you know, it is hard to pin down all the details right now, because we know covering tragedies in Russia that people immediately start spreading around rumors. But today in Kemerovo many people are receiving messages about tomorrow's protests in front of the administration. It just listed the number of questions that everybody wanted to hear answers for. And the key questions are: Why the door to that movie theater was locked? Why the alarm didn’t go on? Why nobody vacated people for 40 minutes from the roof?

CO: And it appears that there will be charges, has anyone been arrested so far?

AN: Yes, several people have been questioned, but here in Moscow I interviewed political analysts and several of them say that it is the governor to blame. The governor has been the governor since 1997. So it's always, as a rule, authorities try to blame businessmen, they try to blame people on the local level instead of, you know, actually keeping the top managers responsible. And in this particular case that's the governor of the Kemerovo region. See this is a very typical story when authorities in Russia try to blame businessmen for the tragedy. But in fact, that's mall somehow had received permits from local authorities.

CO: There is one story that says that basically what happens is that people — there's so many rules and regulations that prompt people to pay bribes to get around them because they're excessive. And then the authorities are satisfied and the buildings are unsafe. Is there truth to that?

AN: Well, you know, last time we saw a huge tragedy it was a few years ago in Perm, when more than 100 people were trapped in a nightclub. There was a big reaction to that. And it seems that everybody every region was supposed to learn a lesson from that tragedy. But what happened yesterday and this happening today, we see something really unbelievable because dozens of parents are looking for missing children, there are lists of missing children still.

CO: In past hours you have been sending out tweets and reports of stories you've heard. One of a boy who jumped out of a window but his parents and sister perished.

AN: Yes, there are so many absolutely tragic stories. There was a father who received the call from his daughter — he had three daughters trapped in that movie theater. And he was trying to make his way to his daughters but he collapsed in the smoke on the staircase and then saw the firefighters. He later said that it took firefighters three minutes to put their masks on. He was begging for a mask but they said this is against the rules, we can't give you the mask — so his three daughters died in that movie theater.

CO: And then you mentioned some were sending messages, they were sending out the word to their parents and saying goodbye to them.

AN: Yeah, one girl she managed to send three short text messages within one minute and they were basically I love you, all of you. I guess this is goodbye.

CO: Anna this is so distressing, and I hope people do get some answers though, because there are obviously tremendously important questions here. Thank you so much for telling us what happened.

AN: Thank you.

CO: Anna Nemtsova is the Russian correspondent for Newsweek and The Daily Beast. We reached her in Moscow.

[Music: Heavy Bass]

Australia 17-hour Flight

Guest: Wayne Kwong

JD: Sitting on an airplane for more than a few hours is painful. Knowing you're in for a whole day on and off planes with layovers running from terminal to terminal lost. The ever-present possibility of misplaced luggage. It's kind of an agony isn't it? But that was the dull horror faced by everyone planning a trip from Australia to Europe. But now a breath of fresh air amongst all that stale cabin air. For the first time passengers planning that trip can choose to avoid those pesky connections. Yesterday, the first direct flight from Perth, Australia to London, England landed at Heathrow after just over 17 hours in the air. Wayne Kwong is a self-described aviation geek from Hong Kong. He was on that flight. We reached him in London.

CO: Wayne, how does it feel to have your feet on the ground after 17 hours in the air?

WAYNE KWONG: Well it's a funny feeling, actually. On one hand I prefer to continue the joy of that flight, but on the other hand yes it is nice to be on terra firma after 17 hours.

CO: I think people are puzzling over the joy of that, the pleasure of that 17 hours. Can you tell us what you liked about it?

WK: Well, first of all it is a history making flight. This is the first ever nonstop from Australia to the U.K. And secondly, the atmosphere before departure, during the flight and after landing, it was amazing. Lots of people, excited people, lots of media people there doing interviews. And the top boss of Qantas and Western Australia were there as well. And so the atmosphere, the vibe was amazing and everybody was abuzz.

CO: All right, so what was the worst part of it?

WK: The worst part of it maybe the seat width and with no Wi-Fi. These are the two downsides I find. Being a 787, it's got abreast in economy and the seats are a little bit narrow. And I'm quite broad shouldered so you have to adjust a bit without having to touch your neighbour’s shoulders.

CO: That sounds awful. 17 hours and are shoehorned in in the middle seat?

WK: No, deliberately reserved the aisle seat, because I knew it will be a long flight. I knew I would I need to walk around. I need to exercise, I need to drink lots of water, and I need lots of toilet breaks. So that's why I requested the aisle.

CO: But if you didn't have a an aisle seat there are middle seats I understand.

WK: Yes there are, there are.

CO: Did you talk to people who were in the one of those seats?

WK: Yeah my neighbour. Luckily she's not one of those who would want to get to the toilet all the time and she was okay. And then on landing I mean, the neighbour on her other side, was a rather big gentleman and he kept, you know, during the sleeping, he kept leaning towards her and so she had to adjust herself toward my side and I had to adjust myself to aisle side. Having said that, the cushioning of the seats are quite good. It's really quite comfortable from that point of view. And when you recline the seat it's like cradling effect and it gets that little angle, tilted angle of the seat and it gives you a better feeling.

CO: I understand that for some reason the windows are larger on this craft.

WK: It is true, it is true. I think I can't remember the exact figure but the 20-30 per cent larger than the usual aircraft and they have this dimming function. But anyway our flight was that night flight anyhow so I don't know whether they dim the windows at all. But anyway the mood lighting on the flight helped your body clock as it were. The lighting of the ceiling changes according to the time of the day after etc. and it does help.

CO: How many movies did you watch?

WK: Not many actually. I watched a few TV episodes. I watched one actually, Murder on the Orient Express — that was what I watched.

CO: You’re obviously very good at entertaining yourself.

WK: Oh yeah, because we have lots of aviation enthusiasts on board, and we talked a lot and then a lot of media people of course. And then I got a little interview from Channel 10 Australia and an awesome feature was that they have this self-serve pantry at the back of the plane. All the passengers tend to gather there. So that was nice point.

CO: Did you get a chance to check out business class?

WK: I just walked through it on boarding and deplaning. No I didn't try.

CO: Well, it's usually an improvement, so would that have would that have been a much larger improvement on the 17-hour flight?

WK: Yeah sure. I mean, you've got much more space and you can stretch out and can lay flat to sleep. But then you don't get the social interaction as much as it in economy class. I mean, if you're a person who doesn't like to socialize at all then business class would be perfect.

[LAUGHTER}

WK: I mean, I travel a lot so I know when to shut my mouth when to talk and when not to talk.

CO: Oh that's good. You could sit beside me then.

[LAUGHTER]

CO: Now you mentioned that because this was trip to show it off, show this new service and so everyone was there was people in aviation and journalism, they're all there because they're taking part in this historic flight. But after the buzz is gone, after the celebration is gone, do you think this will still be, could still be as enjoyable as you seem to have found it?

WK: For us, I mean, we always love flying anyhow. So yes, I think from our point of view, yes. I think I would continue to enjoy that flight. Also I mean, I’ve spoken to some other couples who had immigrated to Perth from the U.K. and they loved the flight. They say “Yes, every year we'll be doing this flight to come back to the U.K. to visit relatives.

CO: All right Wayne, well happy flying. Good to talk to you.

WK: Thank you Carol.

CO: Thanks. Bye.

WK: Bye.

JD: Wayne Kwong was on yesterday's first ever 17-hour direct flight from Perth to London. We reached him in London. And to see — well to learn more about Mr. Kwong's journey and see some photos head to our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Jazz Band]

Australian Cricket Scandal

SOUNDCLIP

PRIME MINISTER MALCOLM TURNBULL: How can our team be engaged in training like this. But I have to say that to the whole nation who holds those who wear the baggy green are on a pedestal about as high as you can get in Australia — certainly higher than any politician that's for sure — this is a shocking disappointment and it's wrong. And I look forward to Cricket Australia taking decisive action soon.

JD: Malcolm Turnbull, the Prime Minister of Australia, speaking to reporters yesterday. And if you scan international sports headlines today you will see the PM's horrified response is the norm. The headlines read: Shame; Sack Them All; Clown Under; and Caught With Their Pants Down. Obviously this is big, but the physical act that prompted all this outrage was actually very small and kind of gross. And it's the only major sporting scandal that can be summed up by this remark from someone at the broadcaster that videotaped the offence. Quote “The moment he tried to dispose of it in his pants we knew that this was a major incident.” On Friday during day three of the third Test match against South Africa, Australian cricketer Cameron Bancroft took a small piece of yellow sticky tape out of his pocket, rubbed it on the ball and then put the tape back in his pocket. He didn't know that he had been caught on camera — and then he did. Mr. Bancroft said quote “once being cited on the screen I panicked quite a lot and that resulted in me shoving it down my trousers,” — as in bright into his underwear. And when umpires went over to confront him he played innocent and the game continued. Afterwards however, Australian team captain Steve Smith admitted the sticky tape incident was planned. He'll likely be stripped of his position. Team sponsors are reassessing their sponsorship. An investigation has been launched. All because of some sticky tape rubbed on the ball — a trick to make one side of the ball rougher which changes its trajectory when thrown, it makes it much harder to hit. Now it is an international scandal and a disaster for Cricket Australia, all because of a little tape and a tape recorder.

Part 2: Catalan Arrest, Remington Arrest

Catalan Arrest

Guest: Josep Costa

JD: Catalonia's former leader is no longer a free man. Carles Puigdemont was arrested yesterday in Germany. He now faces possible extradition to Spain on charges of rebellion, sedition and misuse of public funds. Mr. Puigdemont fled Spain after organizing an independence vote for Catalonia and declaring the region’s independence. In Barcelona, the reaction to his arrest was swift. Protesters took to the streets and clashed with police. Josep Costa is the pro-independence vice president of the Catalan parliament. We reached him in Barcelona.

CO: Mr. Costa, how are people in Barcelona reacting to the news of the arrest of Mr. Puigdemont?

JOSEP COSTA: Well, people are angry, not just because of the president, but also because the Spanish judiciary basically sent five more people into jail in Madrid, including the candidate for president and five members of parliament. So the whole thing combined is truly shocking to anyone, and it's just a complete disruption of the democratic system.

CO: They're saying that the disruption of the democratic system began with your movement and what this vote, the pro-independence movement represents. So how do you think Germany is going to respond? Can they possibly avoid extradition of Mr. Puigdemont?

JC: No we don't think it will succeed, this extradition, because it's all forged. The crimes that are being applied to these facts are just nonsense. It just it doesn't hold anywhere beyond the Spanish borders. And it doesn't convince any scholars or legal experts in Spain. I mean, most people think this is a political case, this is a political prosecution. I mean, they're being accused of rebellion, right. Rebellion is a coup d’etat, it’s having the military take arms against the government, this is the crime of rebellion. And we are being accused of rebellion for a vote in the Parliament. I repeat for a vote in the parliament.

CO: But it was a new illegal vote, was it not?

JC: I mean, we can discuss that. Even if we concede that the vote was not in accordance with the Constitution, where on earth did the judge come to say that being illegal is the same as being a crime? That's not what I learned as a lawyer. I think it's something very different. And not just any crime, the worst crime — I mean, rebellion has a worse punishment than terrorism.

CO: What would be the punishment if Mr. Puigdemont was convicted of treason in Spain?

JC: It could be more than 30 years of imprisonment. That's for a political vote, that's for a political platform, that's for a government that was democratically elected. So it really makes no sense. I mean, nobody is going to buy this beyond the Spanish borders — we are sure of that.

CO: The biggest charge that he is facing, as you point out, is for the crime of rebellion, which doesn't exist in Germany. But the crime of treason does and some are arguing that the Germans could see this as being treasonous and therefore would fall into the law for extradition back to Spain.

JC: Well, the fact is high treason in Germany may be something similar to a rebellion in Spain. I concede that. But a German judge will immediately see that there is nothing near to rebellion here. Rebellion is a crime that's defined for a coup d'etat for a military overthrowing of the government, it’s the police seizing the control — but there was absolutely no armed violence here. So in the sense when the Germans look at the facts they will see that the facts don't conform to their crime of treason. That's what I'm trying to say. The facts do not relate to the crimes that are being put forward.

CO: Right but there lesser charges and I'm wondering I mean, whatever judgment you want to give on it, from the Spanish point of view this was an illegal vote, it was violation of constitutional law in Spain. And that has to be proven in court, that would have to be tested. But under Spanish law these were…

JC: Think about this. I mean, I think in Canada you have the notwithstanding clause, right? When when there's a vote in the parliament the constitutional court can say it's unconstitutional and then the Parliament can say we use the notwithstanding clause, right? So being unconstitutional is not a crime.

CO: Could they extradite him for the crime of misuse of public funds? This is the other charge.

JC: Well, in this case just the facts just don't prove that at all. They tried this in Belgium a couple of months ago in the November and December, and the Belgian court said there was no proof of that kind of charge. And in fact there is a report, there's a certificate and there's many statements by the Spanish government, basically saying that there was no use of public funds for the referendum. So that's a fact, that's established fact there's no use of public funds for the referendum. So again, there's a charge but the facts just don't conform to the requirements of a prosecution.

CO: We were watching the protesters on the streets today and they are nowhere near the numbers of last year. I’m wondering did Mr. Puigdemont maybe jump the gun by declaring independence? Is the support really there for what he did?

JC: Well, more people voted in December election for independence than ever before. So there's no indication that people are less in favour of independence than in October or in September 2015. The people that voted for pro-independence parties in the December election is the highest number ever.

CO: We will be watching very closely Mr. Costa, and I appreciate speaking with you tonight. Thank you.

JC: Thank you.

JD: Josep Costa is the vice president of the Catalan parliament. We reached him in Barcelona

Tsilhqot’in First Nations Apology

SOUNDCLIP

TSILHQOT’IN MEN PLAYING DRUMS AND CHANTING

JD: You're listening to a ceremony performed by Tsilhqot’in drummers on the floor of the House of Commons today. They were there to hear Prime Minister Justin Trudeau apologize to the B.C. First Nation for the hanging of six Tsilhqot’in chiefs more than 150 years ago. In 1864 the chiefs were accused of murdering 14 members of a work crew that was building roads to access gold deposits on traditional lands. Mr. Trudeau said quote “No agreement was made to access their land, no consent was sought,” unquote. He added that the Tsilhqot’in people took action to defend their territory. This is a drum ceremony being performed on the floor of the House of Commons today by Tsilhqot’in chiefs after an official apology from the prime minister.

Remington Arrest

Guest: Adam Winkler

JD: Remington has been making guns in the United States for more than 200 years. But now, even though that country is absolutely bristling with weapons, Remington has filed for bankruptcy protection. The company that owns Remington has been trying to sell the business since a gunman used its Bushmaster rifle in the deadly school shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary in 2012. It has not been able to find a buyer. To help explain why we reached Adam Winkler. Mr. Winkler is the author of Gunfight: The Battle Over the Right to Bear Arms in America. He's also a law professor at UCLA. We connected with him by Skype in Los Cabos, Mexico.

CO: Professor Winkler, we just saw hundreds-of-thousands of young people this weekend in the United States out protesting the proliferation of guns. Why is a gun-maker like Remington in trouble?

ADAM WINKLER: Well, Remington is in trouble because gun makers are suffering through what's known as the “Trump slump.” Gun sales are down more than 10 per cent since the election of Donald Trump as fears of new gun control laws have receded. One question is whether this new push for gun control will lead to more gun makers to turn a profit.

CO: OK, just to explain more about what the “Trump slump” is?

AW: Sure. After the election of Donald Trump concerns about new gun control laws waned. And as a result the desire for many people to rush out and buy guns that they thought were going to be banned has waned too. And along with it come gun sales. Gun sales have been down year to date about 10 per cent.

CO: So the problems that Remington is having isn't because of people turning their backs on guns or thinking that guns are a bad idea, is it they just don't feel as compelled to buy them right now?

AW: Well, Remington faces two problems one, the demand for gun sales is down and two, Remington itself was a poorly managed company. Remington was not producing good products that gun buyers wanted to purchase. They had suffered some embarrassing losses with product recalls and had run out some new product lines that just never caught on.

CO: It was also a Remington gun that was used in the killing of kids and their teachers in Sandy Hook, was it not?

AW: It was and they’re facing some lawsuits as a result of that. But that is not why Remington has gone out of business. The law provides very vibrant protections for gun makers. So even though they've faced a big lawsuit they're not likely to lose that lawsuit in the end.

CO: And what about the young people out protesting this weekend? Is that having any effect on gun manufacturers like Remington? Is that contributing to a decline at all?

AW: Well, if anything it's likely to help some gun makers because if the fears of gun control rise and people think there's really a chance for instance of banning AR-15s — theaw military style assault rifles — we're likely to see many people rush out and buy those very guns. It's one of the ironies of gun control, when new gun control laws are proposed, potential gun buyers go out and buy those guns in large numbers.

CO: And what about the retailers who are saying they're not going to sell guns anymore, or are not going to sell certain kinds of guns, that they're under pressure, business and investor pressure we we've done a number of stories about that. That's not behind it?

AW: Well, that could obviously play a role. But I think with regards to Remington in particular, Remington is really a problem of a particular company being mismanaged and as a result going under. The truth is, is over the last 10 years we've seen huge spikes in the demand for guns. And while that's definitely softened since Donald Trump's election, gun making is a very, very profitable business if you're a well-managed company.

CO: But there's still an estimated 25 million guns bought by Americans last year. So who's buying all those guns?

AW: Well, the guns are increasingly being purchased by a small number of people. We're finding that the percentage of homes with guns in them is steadily decreasing, but yet gun sales are skyrocketing — suggesting that fewer and fewer people are buying more and more guns and creating what we call mega-owners or super-gun-owners that have 10, 12, 20 guns.

CO: Well, who are those people and what war are they preparing for?

AW: Well, they're not preparing for war and that's one of the big misunderstandings about American gun owners. The truth is, in America where guns are legal, there's just a lot of people who love to go out and shoot recreationally. They go to the gun range on Saturday the way, I don't know my grandfather went to the golf course every Saturday, and they love to shoot. And the reason why they buy 20 guns is not because they're preparing an arsenal for war, it's because they like to have a lot of different firearms when they go to the gun range and engage in their favourite hobby.

CO: Are even those meg- owners though, are they purchasing fewer weapons since Donald Trump was elected?

AW: Well, we've seen percentage of gun sales go down by 10 per cent. How much that's affecting the super-owners or other kinds of potential gun owners is really unclear. We just don't have any data on that to provide an answer.

CO: All right. So the owner — you're mentioning how it's badly run — the owner of Remington is Steven Feinberg, a major Donald Trump supporter and donor, a multimillionaire. He briefly even was looking to have a national security role in the Trump administration. Do you think he calculated that there would be a Trump slump, it would be bad for his business?

AW: I don't think he did, although it shouldn't have been such a big surprise. The truth is we saw over the course of the Obama administration, as the threat for gun control became more pronounced that gun sales really skyrocketed in response. It's not really a surprise that gun sales have declined when the threat of gun control has declined.

CO: All right so there's a shift in Congress and possibly in the future in the White House toward Democrats then gun sales go back to where they were?

AW: It's very possible, we'll have to wait and see what happens — and it may even happen under the Trump administration. If Donald Trump does, as he was talking about during a few weeks ago, and supports some very significant gun control laws then maybe you'll see that Trump slump alleviated during the Trump administration.

CO: Now there is speculation in the business press that Remington will end up in the hands of another gun-maker, so it could be business as usual if they can get their act together?

AW: Well, that's right. I think that Remington is not going out of business it's declaring bankruptcy and will go through a re-organization. It's not that the prospects of the company are so dim that it doesn't have any prospects, but it's rather that the company has been mismanaged. It still has important assets and is still a very treasured name in the gun community as a brand.

CO: All right, we'll leave it there. Professor Winkler, thank you.

AW: Thank you.

CO: Adam Winkler teaches law at UCLA. He is the author of Gunfight: The Battle Over the Right to Bear Arms in America we reached him in Los Cabos, Mexico.

[Music: Trance Bass]

Volcanic Thunder

JD: If you've hit a snag in the search for a name for your metal band I have a suggestion — Volcanic Thunder — you're welcome. Now I can sort of guess what your band sounds like. But the actual phenomenon known as volcanic thunder was a little harder to determine because it happens during a volcanic eruption, during which the volcano itself is being pretty loud so you can't really hear the thunder separately. Well now, researchers in Alaska have managed to record volcanic thunder. They set up microphones on an island about 60 kilometres away from the erupting Bogoslof volcano in March of last year. And unlike your band hopefully, it’s not quite as thunderous as we expected. Here's one of those recordings sped up 60 times so it is audible. The lower pitched sound you're going to hear off the top is the actual volcano erupting and the clicking that sounds kind of like the wind — that is the volcanic thunder.

SOUNDCLIP

RUMBLING AND CLICKING OF VOLCANIC THUNDER

JD: There you go, our sound of the day. Volcanic thunder that was recorded during the eruption of Alaska's Bogoslof volcano one year ago.

[Music: Lo-Fi]

Woman Marries Tree

JD: Dateline Fort Myers, Florida.

[Music: Dateline Theme]

JD: On Saturday, a wedding party gathered around a giant ficus tree in Snell Family Park. It was a familiar scene. Like so many brides before her Karen Cooper recited her vows under the canopy of that magnificent tree. However, unlike so many brides before her, Ms. Cooper tied the knot with the tree. For more than a century of the ficus tree has been the main attraction in the riverfront Park. But its ancient branches and roots do more than provide a shady space to read or a picturesque backdrop for a wedding, they encroach on a neighboring million-dollar lot. And now the city is considering cutting the tree down. Now the idea to marry the tree came to Ms. Cooper after she heard about a group of women in Mexico that were protesting deforestation by marrying trees. As she told The Associated Press quote “I saw that and I thought oh we should marry the ficus tree, kind of giggle, giggle. But everyone said it's a good idea. So I said OK let's do it,” unquote. The honeymoon however may be brief. The fate of the tree is still unclear ahead of an advisory board meeting on Tuesday. At the very least Ms. Cooper's newly minted marriage shows that when it comes to their beloved ficus tree the community is willing to go out on a limb.

[Music: Uptempo Banjo]

Part 3: Russian Opposition, Anglerfish video, Rebel Bank

Russian Opposition

Guest: Dmitry Gudkov

JD: As we heard earlier on in the program, Western countries are trying to punish Russia and President Vladimir Putin by expelling diplomats. Inside Russia however, opposition politicians are still trying to figure out a strategy for opposing the recently re-elected president. Everyone knew that Mr. Putin would win the election. During the campaign dissent was crushed, opposition leaders were jailed and banned from running. State media heavily favoured Mr. Putin. And during the vote observers reported ballot stuffing. So the question is, is there any possibility of political change in Russia? Well Ksenia Sobchak and Dmitry Gudkov believe there is. They are both part of the Russian opposition. Ms. Sobchak is a TV host turned politician who ran in the election. Mr Gudkov is a former Duma deputy. They have teamed up to create ‘The Party of Change,’ which they hope will resurrect liberal politics in Russia. We reached Dmitry Gudkov in Moscow.

CO: Mr. Gudkov, as a member of Russia’s very small political opposition, what possibly gives you any encouragement or hope at this point?

DMITRY GUDKOV: I don’t think that we should be disappointed about the presidential elections because I think that people didn’t vote for the program, people voted for the person who made the world respect Russia. But looking back to the 2017 September, the opposition won the municipal election in Moscow. It was just six months ago and I think that we will be able to repeat this success. I'm in the middle of creating the Party of Change with Ksenia Sobchak. We’re going to participate in the Moscow mayoral elections every September. We’re going participate in the Moscow council elections 2019 and our main goal is to pass the threshold on the parliamentary elections in 2021.

CO: So you've joined forces with television host who actually ran against Mr. Putin, got almost two per cent of the vote, this is Ksenia Sobchak. What do you think you can accomplish with that given how difficult it is to be an opposition party in Russia — Mr. Putin's Russia?

DG: You know, it's very complicated to achieve anything in the country because we live in an authoritarian country, but we creating the Party of Change, the party of a new generation. We want to unite a lot of people, young people, in order to change the agenda of the whole country. And if you ask anybody in Russia to name any young politician you will hear Sobchak, Gudkov and there will be nobody from United Russia or from parliamentary parties. They have only old leaders from the 90s. And I think we will have a chance to unite people and to propose a new agenda for the generation who want changes, want democracy, who independence and who want freedom.

CO: Just you mentioned some of the opposition figures that are still standing, like yourself and the Sobchak, but some like Boris Nemtsov are dead, some have fled the country. Ms. Sobchak, she was actually able to get a question to Mr. Putin at a press conference and this is what she said to Mr. Putin. “People understand that to be in the opposition in Russia means that you will either be killed or imprisoned or something else of that sort will happen to you. My question is this she says why does this happen. Are the authorities afraid of honest competition.” To which he gave not much of an answer, but that's the thinking of people in opposition that you may be killed or driven out of the country or something horrible will happen to you. Do you have that fear too?

DG: I try not to think about fear. When I worked in the Parliament — I was a member of the parliament for five years — and I know the mood in the Parliament and the government they are disappointed in both foreign politics, they are disappointed about the situation in the economy because all of them are losing money because of the sanctions.

CO: I just want to ask about the results of the election. Mr. Putin won 77 per cent of the vote. 56 million people apparently voted for him. You said this was to send a message that Russia will not be humiliated. That it’s a matter about respect and rejection of Western and European values. What is the message that Europe and the West should take from this election? What are what are Russians saying with their votes?

DG: You know, Russian propaganda has been explaining to people that Putin is stability. All opposition figures were discredited by media and Putis’s opponents didn't come to the polling stations and didn't vote because the main opposition figure, Alexei Navalny, was not on the ballot. The opponents didn't come to the polling stations. The Russian elites didn't support anybody else but Putin. That’s why he got those results.

CO: But even though they didn't have any choices, a lot of people like the message that Mr. Putin is putting out. This one of nationalism, of Russia standing up to the west, defying Europe, they like that message don't they?

DG: There was a message to leaders who according to propaganda tries to destroy our country. And unfortunately a lot of people believe in this because there is no alternative position on the state media. I want to explain to you, according to polls Putin has 86 per cent, according to state polls. But one third of people never tell the truth to pollsters, because you can imagine if somebody comes to your door or calls on your home phone and ask you if you support Putin, it’s better to say yes just to avoid any problems in the future. So I think that the real support is around 55 or 56 per cent.

CO: Can I just ask — that you know that the American president Mr. Trump he has contacted Mr. Putin congratulated him. What do you think that message sends to Russians and to others about Mr. Putin?

DG: I think that there is some connection between the Trump administration and Putin’s ministration. I remember when Trump won the election it was like it was a holiday. Many members of the parliament and the government tweeted that Russia won in the United States, that Russian influence on the presidential elections. So I think that it's very important for Putin to show that there is a connection, that there is communication between Moscow and Washington.

CO: Mr. Gudkov, I appreciate speaking with you. I admire your optimism in the face of what you're up against. And thank you for speaking with us.

DG: Thank you.

JD: Dmitri Gudkov is a Russian opposition leader. We reached him in Moscow.

[Music: Ambient Guitar Plucks]

Prince Rupert B.C. Cherry Trees

JD: It stumped just about everyone in Prince Rupert, British Columbia. Last Friday residents noticed that a row of beloved cherry blossom trees had been cut down. The trees were on federal government property and they were removed as part of a quote “landscaping improvement project.” The news came as a shock to Gregory Shimizu. His grandfather showed Shotaru Shimizu was a Japanese immigrant who was interned in 1942. But in 1959, he gifted hundreds of cherry blossom trees to the city of Prince Rupert as a thank you for helping him get his start in Canada. The trees cut down on Friday were part of Mr. Shimizu’s donation. Gregory Shimizu spoke with host Carolina de Ryk this morning on CBC's Daybreak North.

SOUNDCLIP

GREGORY SHIMIZU: It's certainly a shock that they contacted me in a sense because nobody seemed to know the story. I think the story is also what could probably have saved the trees.

CAROLINA DE RYK: What's the story?

GS: My grandfather had a hotel he co-owned in Prince Rupert. The war came long, of course, everybody knows and they were interned and New Denver in the centre B.C. and had to leave to leave town. Upon upon his release we ended up moving to Edmonton. While in Edmonton he decided that he wanted to give back to the community he felt was home and donated 500 cherry trees in 1959 and then in 1960 another 1,000. Fortunately my grandfather had all these letters from the Office of the mayor and a lot of thank you letters, all kinds of documentation that without it there would be absolutely no story. I knew about these trees growing up as a young child. It was talked about in the family, but not very much it was just that my grandfather had done this. A couple of years ago in 2016 I'd actually finally decided I should find out what's going on with this and I sent e-mail to archives and they didn't seem to have any information for me. They didn't know anything about it.

CDR: That’s here in Prince Rupert.

GS: Yes, in Prince Rupert. And I sent a few e-mails around to the tourist bureau in places and I missed a phone call on Friday from archives saying, you know, soom people are trying to get hold of me, you know, the cherry tree the sakura in Japan is a very important thing. It speaks to the impermanence of life even — it can come and go so quickly — just as the trees now had a long life in some sense, but could go so quickly. It's sort of like interment itself. All of a sudden one day you wake up and the war comes and everything's taken from you. So it's poetic in that way and it's sad. We're talking 60 years of a tree and in Japan it's a communal thing having the sakura and being around them especially in time of bloom.

JD: Gregory Shimizu speaking to host Carolina de Ryk on CBC's Daybreak North.

[Music: Rhythmic Guitar Strumming]

Anglerfish video

Guest: Ted Pietsch

JD: OK, when a male and female anglerfish love each other very much they — well this is awkward isn't it. It's just a natural expression of affection. So what they do is, OK I'm just going to say it — the male bites into the female, permanently fuses with her tissue and lives off the nutrients in her blood for the rest of his life. If you know what anglerfish look like, that terrifying a mating ritual probably sounds just about right to you. Anglerfish are those creepy looking jagged-tooth things with that little bioluminescent lure that floats in front of their face. It is very rare for researchers to see them in the wild because they live way, way, way down below the surface of the ocean. But for the first time researchers have captured footage of a sexually bonded pair of anglerfish. And in a sense it's kind of a beautiful shared experience. In another sense it is so awful. Ted Pietsch was one of the first people to see that footage. He is a professor emeritus in the School of Aquatic and Fishery Sciences at the University of Washington. We reached him in Seattle.

CO: Professor Pietsch, first of all can you describe what you can see in this video?

TED PIETSCH: Well, we can see for the first time Deep-Sea anglerfish in its natural habitat. And the most spectacular part of it is the attached male. This is a parasitic male, which is the first time we've ever seen a female with her male attached at depth, that is in her natural environment.

CO: And what are they doing attach to each other?

TP: Well this is the way they reproduce. It's so difficult to get together in the deep sea individuals of a species are so few and far between for a male to find a female nearly impossible — so a really nice solution is for the male to attach to the female if he's going to find a female at all — the best thing to do is latch on and stay on there for life.

CO: For life?

TP: A male cannot release himself because the tissues of the of the male and female fuse and also the circulatory systems fuse so that her blood then flows through him and he's nourished by the nutrients in her blood.

CO: Now what does she get out of it?

TP: Well, she probably doesn't even know the male is there. She is then able to pass on her genes through this relationship between the male and the female. When the eggs are ripe and her body swells her ovaries get very large, she releases this mass of eggs and at the same time the male releases his sperm. And this can happen over and over again throughout the life of the couple. So they might live maybe 20-25 years and they're always together so they can always reproduce.

CO: OK. So it is in their mutual self-interest to hang out like this in this parasitic relationship?

TP: Yeah, yeah it's true to play the evolutionary game and avoid extinction, this is a good way to do it in the deep sea.

CO: People, I mean, because the video is so extraordinary of this fish — well the female is, she's beautiful but terrifying. Do you want to just describe what these two look like?

TP: Well, you're really right. I mean, I've been studying these things for 50 years, since I was about 20 as a graduate student, and I've always dealt with preserved specimens in jars and collections. And when they come up in nets and they're trawled up they get beat up and torn up and so to see this female in perfect condition, freely moving around in space, watery space — it was quite a fantastic thing for me.

CO: And she's quite large and her partner is a little tiny thing.

TP: Yeah, that's the way it is. There are 160 species of these animals and unlike any other group of fishes the males are tiny little dwarfed things that can be like half-a-millionth the weight of the female. And their sole purpose in life is to find a female. And we think — a lot of it's guesswork — but we believe that by far the vast majority of males that are down there never find a female and they die. They can't feed on their own because they're not equipped to eat. They don't have the right jaw mechanism. They're equipped to bite onto the female. That's about all. So if they don't find a female they die.

[LAUGHTER]

CO: So it has to be some kind of a parasitic relationship or they're doomed?

TP: That's true. And I think also that very few of the females actually acquire a male. We think that it might be as much as only 10 per cent of females ever acquire a male, which means it's a crazy thing to think that 80 or 90 per cent of the females are vegetative and never give rise to offspring.

CP Wow. So it's even more extraordinary that they were able to capture these two?

TP: It really is. Yes.

CO: Now the thing is, is that since she's eating for two — she has this halo of these glowing tendrils. Can you describe what the function of those are?

TP: Well, you know again, it's guesswork where my major professor and I have called it throughout my career, armchair biology. You know, we sit back and we look at these things and we sort of imagine what could be going on. But since down there in the deep the senses of vision are fairly poor, animals are mostly using olfaction — that is smell. They have nice well-developed nostrils but also the sense of touch and vibration is important. So having this sort of a halo around the body of the fish these filaments act like a kind of a sphere of tactility. Anything that might touch the tip of one of those fin rays will cause the female to react probably to a whip around and grab whatever might be there as a piece of something to eat.

CO: But they seem to be luminescent. Are they actually glowing?

TP: Well, that's the thing. We just don't know. Lots of deep sea animals have reflective, silvery reflective tissue in their skin, and it reflects light. So we don't really know whether all of those little spots of light are bioluminescence or are they reflecting light from the submersible, light bouncing off this reflective tissue and back into the camera.

CO: Well, you got to see the happy couple in action?

TP: Oh yeah, it was a thrill.

[LAUGHTER]

CO: We're going to pose that video because everyone should see it and it's great to talk to you Professor Pietsch. Thank you.

TP: Thank you very much, I appreciate it.

CO: Bye.

TP: Bye-bye. Ted Pietsch is a professor emeritus in the school of Aquatic and Fishery Sciences at the University of Washington. We reached him in Seattle. And to see the video of the mating anglerfish head on over to our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: 90s Hip-Hop]

Barkley Marathons

JD: To finish the Barkley Marathons you have to win a brutal race against the clock. Every year runners try to cover the distance of more than four marathons in under three days. The Tennessee race began more than 30 years ago. And in those 30 years only 15 people have ever finished within the time limit. This year no one did. But the long odds in that long race have not stopped Canadian Gary Robins from trying. He has attempted to complete the Barkley Marathons every year for the past three years and every year he's come up short. But even though he hasn't succeeded yet, Mr. Robbins is very far from a failure. Last year Carrol caught up with Gary Robbins in Vancouver a week after he had missed completing the race for the second time. Here's part of their conversation from our archives.

SOUNDCLIP

CO: It was just heartbreaking to see the finish line and see you there. When did you learn about what had happened in the race?

GARY ROBBINS: In the end I collapsed at the gate and 60 hours and six seconds and I knew immediately that I would not be a finisher of the race. And not only was I over time but I came to the finish from the wrong direction.

CO: For those who don't know, how do you actually run this marathon?

GB: This course is known to be longer than a marathon per lap — it's five laps. You have 60 hours to get to the finish line. There are 67,000 feet of climbing and descents, which is base sea level to the top of Everest and back twice. They hide books in the forest and you pull a page out of the book that correlates with your bib number to prove that you've gone the right direction on the course.

CO: And you're doing this without sleep. Last year when we spoke with you, when you attempted this race, you said you were hallucinating at some point. Did the same thing happen again?

GB: So yeah, as you mentioned you know, there's no time for sleep it's a 60 hour cut off and if you have any chance of finishing you're going to be moving for all but a few minutes of those 60 hours. This year I managed to get about 25 minutes sleep. On that last lap halfway through I went through the night into the sunrise and about an hour into the day I started seeing bright flashes of light in my peripheral. The first one I thought was a car the second one I thought was a headlamp and then I realised that this was going to be my blessing of a hallucination this year was blinking and seeing bright lights around me.

CO: Why does this race matter so much to you?

GB: When I got into the sport I was 27 years old and I got into expedition adventure racing and my goal when I got into things was truly to find what my outer markers were and my outer limit. And I actually said at the time you know I wanted to be confronted with being on my knees and questioning how it could possibly go a step further. And through the years of doing the expedition racing it evolved into the ultra-running and I learned of the Barkley many years ago and it sounded like the ultimate human test. The ‘how do you possibly solve this Rubik's Cube of physical mental and navigation and up against a clock doesn't stop ticking?’ Now that I've come so close twice it's just, it's so bittersweet to be having this conversation about having a second time not finished and knowing that at some point I will need to return a third time.

CO: Gary, I look forward to our conversation about your victory.

GB: I appreciate that so much Carol. Thank you.

JD: From our archives. That was three time Barkley Marathons runner Gary Robbins. Carol spoke with Mr. Robbins last year after his second attempt. Unfortunately he did not complete it this year either. The 2018 Barkley Marathons concluded today.

[Music: Arpeggiated Tones]

Rebel Bank

Guest: Dan Edelstyn

JD: The United Kingdom is one of the wealthiest countries in the world, but the average U.K. citizen owes the equivalent of nearly 15,000 Canadian dollars in personal debt — that is excluding their mortgage. Poorer people are more at risk of spiraling debt because of cuts to social welfare spending and the reluctance of banks to lend to them. That often forces vulnerable people to borrow from loan sharks at even higher interest rates. Now two artists in the London neighbourhood of Walthamstow decided to do something to address this problem — by setting up their own bank. Dan Edelstyn and his wife Hilary Powell set up The Hoe Street Central Bank. We reached Mr. Edelstyn in London.

CO: Dan, what inspired you to do this in your neighbourhood? Was there any particular story?

DAN EDELSTYN: It took a long time to gestate really. But it was born from a desire to truly understand what the forces are that are driving us through our lives. And then also the feeling of, you know, I live in this place but I don't feel like I am a big part of the community, because you're working so hard just to make a living and the stuff that you don't have the time to kind of look around and see the people who are around you, and you know to truly connect to your neighbors. Everyone was feeling the pinch in one way or another I think. Debt seems to be something that affects everyone.

CO: Describe these bank notes that you come up with? Who's on them?

DE: So rather than having Adam Smith or the Queen on our banknote we were quite keen to say that just normal local people in our community had value themselves. They were worth more to us than some abstract characters from the pages of history or from the royal family. And we were interested particularly in depicting people who we felt were fighting against the consequences of an unjust economic system. And when I started to read and learn much more about economics than I had known at the beginning of this, I began to see that the way money is created actually generates inequality and poverty because most money is generated by private banks as interest bearing debts. And therefore one of the by-products of this system is that a few people end up with all of the actual money and most of the other people end up with all of the debt. And so what we wanted to do was to try and locate characters who were fighting against the fallout of the system, you know. So Gary, who started at the food bank was a great contender. He was the first person we found, Saira, who set up a homeless kitchen. She's another brilliant character. Steve who sets up this project, he takes care of these estates and gives some positive mentoring and role models. And then we've got Tracey who's the headmistress of our children's school and she is suffering from the effects of austerity because the school has lost so much of its budget.

CO: Then you were selling these bank notes, right? That’s to raise the money to pay off the debt?

DE: That's right. So yeah the notes, the bank notes are for sale. We made them as accessible as we possibly could to everyone in the community. But I mean, it's not just the community. I mean, we're selling them to people all around Britain and we've had some sales in Canada and America as well. But yeah the purpose of the money is that we're trying to raise 50,000 pounds and of that, 25,000 pounds will go into the local community projects that we're championing, and the other 25,000 will buy up a million pounds worth of local predatory payday debt.

CO: How much money have you made so far?

DE: Well, so far we've raised 15,000 pounds and we still have to raise 35,000 and we're giving ourselves until the 1st of May to raise this money.

CO: How much debt could you actually erase with the amount you've raised so far, do you think?

DE: I guess if we were to use the entire 15000 now, we'd probably get close to writing off a million pounds already to be totally honest.

CO: And so just so that people don't think that you're dreaming in technicolour, that is actually the way that this kind of debt works, right? That's actually been bad debt that's been sold off and that's actually the cost of it to the bank. That's all the bank’s going to get. But for people who have debt it's crushing.

DE: Secondary debt market works in the way that you know if you have a debt to the bank of 1,000 pounds and you don't pay it for two or three months, the bank has to sell it on. The bank will initially sell it for 50 per cent of its face value, but as the debt gets increasingly distressed various different debt buyers will pass it from one to the other and the debt becomes cheaper and cheaper until you can pick it up for like two or five pounds.

CO: We covered the story of others doing this some years ago. Strike Debt to as a group that they but student’s loans that were almost $4 million in the United States. John Oliver, the TV host, bought a whole bunch of medical debt of people, about $15 million the same kind of system that you're describing.

DE: You know, I met Strike Debt in New York about three years ago when I started researching this project and they introduced me to their debt buyers as well. And you know, initially I wanted to buy up debt when I was a New York three years ago. But it was a bit too early, you know, that was just the beginning of this project but I know that John Oliver also bought the debt up through the same debt buyers in New York and that's great, you know. All of it is good because they all sheds light on how the secondary market works. Professor Andrew Ross from New York University wrote his book Creditocracy and ask fundamental questions about what's going on under the surface of our democracy and why is it that debt is being wrapped around access to, you know, all of the social good.

CO: How are we to responding? What kind of reaction have you had from playing Walthamstow.

DE: Amazing. It's been non-stop. People have just been coming to the bank supporting it, buying up the notes, you know, helping to support the initiative and generate awareness online. We were getting a sale every minute of the day when that Guardian article came out, it was just amazing. So yeah the uptake has been phenomenal and I think it's because everyone realizes that things need to change in our economy and our society.

CO: All right, we'll leave it there. Best of luck to you Dan, thank you.

DE: Thank you very much. Nice chat.

CO: Nice to talk to you too. Bye-bye.

CO: Dan Edelstyn and his wife Hilary Powell set up an art and charity project called Hoe Street Central Bank. We reached Mr. Edelstyn in London.

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March 26, 2018 episode transcript

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