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The AIH Transcript for October 16, 2020

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

CO: All in the same boats. Days after a violent mob surrounded a Mi'kmaq lobster facility and torched a van, a non-Indigenous lobster fishermen tells us his community is facing disturbing abuse as well.

CH: Vicious cycles. After a spin class causes a major COVID outbreak, the province of Ontario orders more fitness facilities to close. But our guest strenuously objected to such extreme measures.

CO: They were banned together, but they're still banding together. A day after the government of Thailand banned gatherings of more than four people, tens of thousands gather in Bangkok to demand that prime minister resign.

CH: Matchpoint. A DNA sample helped Toronto police identify the man who killed Christine Jessop in 1984, but a key investigator in the case turned out to be an innovative process called genetic genealogy.

CO: No bones about it. The organizers of a virtual paleontology conference have a bone to pick with the bone headed algorithm that wouldn't let the people use the word bone, despite their obvious bona fides.

CH: And ground zeros, also twos. His neighbours may have scary Halloween displays, but a Nashville man has got their number. His display is both eerie and yeary, a cluster of hulking figures that say 2020. As It Happens. The Friday Edition. Radio that wishes it had 20-20 revision.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: N.S. fishermen's union head quits, says lobster dispute is 'too much of a toll' on his family

Nova Scotia fisherman resigns

Guest: Joel & Cindy Comeau

CH: In Nova Scotia today, Indigenous leaders warned Indigenous lobster fishermen to stay off the water. The order came after reports that non-Indigenous commercial fishermen had plans to haul in what they see as illegally set traps. The ongoing fishing conflict boiled over on Tuesday night when mobs of non-Indigenous fishermen raided two facilities were Mi'kmaq fishermen were storing their catches. The mob was also accused of throwing rocks and threatening to set fire to a building. But Joel Comeau says Indigenous fishermen aren't the only ones receiving threats. This morning, Mr. Comeau resigned as the president of Maritime Fishermen's Union Local Nine. We reached him and his wife, Cindy Comeau, in Meteghan, Nova Scotia. And a warning: this interview includes strong language.

CO: Mr. Comeau, why did you decide to resign today?

JOEL COMEAU: Well, after four years of working on this file and fighting for the fishermen and fighting with the DFO, I decided that it was too much of a toll on my family. We've been followed around the community. The community -- there's a lot of unrest and attacks and intimidation. So I think for my family's and my own health, it was best to step back.

CO: When you say intimidation and attacks, are you personally being subjected to that?

JC: Yes, me and my family. So we are going to keep that private between us. We're going to deal with that privately. And we've had outreach from good people in the community that, you know, they will have our back. But for now, for my mental health, and then the health of my relationships and my daughter, it's best to take a break from it and think things over.

CO: I don't want to pry too much into it. You say you want to keep it private. But when you say, people in the community have your backs -- are you talking about that you feel that you and your family, might be physically attacked?

CINDY COMEAU: [In background] We are.

JC: Physically and verbally both. And verbally is almost worse than anything else.

CO: Is that your wife there in the car?

CC: Yes.

CO: Can I ask you, do you want to tell us what it's been like for your family?

CC: It's been a nightmare, honestly. It's been a nightmare. We cry daily. It's an emotional rollercoaster. And to see our kids scared to go home, come home from school, to get off the bus and to be followed and somebody stay in your driveway and stare at you with tinted windows and you not know if they've got a gun. It's horrible, honestly, how the media has portrayed us so that people actually think that we're criminals and we're racist. And, you know, we love our community. And this is really what it's about is saving the community. We live here. And when all of this -- when everybody packs up their shit and moves on, we still have to live here and we are still going to deal with this on a regular basis, honestly. Everybody is to blame for this situation. And the media, that's why we're so reluctant to talk to you guys because the media just brutally criticizes us.

CO: On the other hand, we're hearing from Chief Sack who's saying the same thing. He's saying that they are afraid, that members of their community have been physically assaulted or harassed.

JC: Don't try to pin the commercial fishermen with Indigenous. You guys aren't doing that. No, we're not answering that. It's not about that.

CO: I'm just pointing out that both sides are saying this...

CC: We don't care about the other side, we just want to give our story. That's it.

JC: Yeah. That's their story. And we can't speak for them.

CC: No we can't.

CO: Mr. Comeau, it's very obvious that it's very distressing for you and your family. What can bring down the temperature in your community? What needs to happen at this point?

JC: The media needs to start showing both sides of the coin. You know what? We're not against native fishermen. We're not against them not fishing. We'd like to see their harvesting plans. We've begged Bernadette Jordan for any bits of information, and we've got nothing. We've got nothing.

CC: She said that she's been at the table with us, weekly. She has been at the table with us three times. And every single time she talks to us, she just tells us that we will never be at their table speaking, that she will never invite us to the table. So what does that tell you? That we're hung out to dry.

CO: You're speaking of the federal minister for the department. I know the media, you feel, is not portraying this well, but there's also a lot going on in your community. What do you need to do? Chief Sack was to meet with you today, if you are still head of the union local. What can happen? Who can sit down at the table at this point and start to sort this out so your community can move on?

JC: Well, me and Mike have had a conversation, bright and early this morning at eight o'clock. And I told them my position why I was stepping away. And he fully understood that. And he supported my decision. I don't think he was meeting Joel Comeau the Maritimes Fishermen's Union rep, he was meeting Joel Comeau the local lobster fishermen, and we were going to have a meet and greet and know who each other was like. I think some people are going to try to make it like we're going to save the world, but we weren't. We were going to sit down and have a good discussion and Lord knows what would have come out of it. It could have been good. It could have been bad. We won't know now.

CO: But can I say that it seems that the Maritime Fishermen's Union Local Nine has lost you as the leader, that you were going to do something that could have really helped. And so would you reconsider your resignation in order to see if you could bring this a step forward?

JC: You know what? I would have to sit down with my family. And right now, my family would never allow me, never allow me back in my position. There's no way. My daughter and my wife, you know, my father, my mother, the whole family -- there's no way. As long as Bernadette Jordan stays inactive and doesn't play her part, I mean she does have the right to regulate all fishing, including Indigenous fishing, she does. We have a commercial season coming in six weeks, and there'll be nothing left for us to fish in St. Marys Bay. My heart goes out to the fishermen who have to stay in the bay and fish. It is going to be a hard season and them having a hard season, it is going to be hard on this community. You know, we're just trying to do what's best for everybody.

CO: Can I just ask your wife one last question. What do you want to happen? I mean, could you imagine your husband going back in to this position? What do you want to be resolved here? How can it be resolved?

CC: I think what most people need to understand is we've been fighting this fight for four years. It's not been a month and a half. So we've been fighting it for four years and we are no further ahead in four years than where we were when we began. The closed seasons, they are for a reason. So nobody wants anybody to lose their moderate livelihood or to not fish or not be self-sufficient and do great in your life. Everybody wants that for one another. But the thing is, if you come to a closed area and you wipe it clean of lobsters, that is ruining the bottom of the ocean. It's a disgrace. So what I would like to see happen is for everybody to just fish a regular season. Everybody get along, like it should be. There's no racists here. There's nobody that hates one another. We try our best to get along with everybody. To hear us being called racist and terrorist in the media, it's so overwhelming to me because they make fun of us on TV for being so polite and using the word sorry so much. So for us to be called anything but polite and nice people, it's mind blowing to me.

CO: Cindy, what would do it? What could bring your community back together? Because as you say, when the cameras and the media go away, you all have to live together again during this long winter ahead of you. Can you see your community being able to come together again?

CC: There's no reason why we cannot fish altogether and live happily amongst one another in peace. That's all anybody wants. The media should be interviewing the local people that live here, that live in this community, not hotheaded fishermen who are so worked up that they can't speak right or they don't know how to use proper terms because they're so worked up. Because it really affects those little old people that are scared to go to the grocery store or those people that live next-door to those fish plants that are being terrorized day and night. And I mean, I'm not talking about one night in [inaudible] I mean, for four years now.

CO: Cindy Comeau and Joel Comeau I appreciate speaking with you. I know you've been sitting in your truck with this conversation. You've got things to do and I'll let you go. Thank you so much.

CC: Thank you.

JC: Thank you.

CH: We reached Joel and Cindy Comeau in Meteghan, Nova Scotia. For more on the story, go to our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Genealogy DNA

Guest: David Mittelman

CH: The announcement that police had identified Christine Jessop's killer was a triumph for David Mittelman. Mr. Mittelman is the CEO of Othram, the lab police turned to for help in cracking the 36 year old cold case. Othram specializes in what's called genetic genealogy, an investigative tool that police say is giving them new hope for investigations that would otherwise be hopeless. We reached David Mittelman in Woodlands, Texas.

CO: David, this unsolved murder case has haunted people in Ontario for decades now. What does it mean to you to have helped close the case?

DAVID MITTELMAN: It means a lot to all of us. We're a pretty large team, everything from lab to researcher, all mixed together, trying to bring as much value as we can to cold cases. And it's scary and it's been kind of anxiety inducing to jump in on a case that is really important to so many people and has been tested before and not successfully solved. And the last thing you want to do is make it worse or consume evidence without providing an answer. So it was exciting. And then it was also just, you know, a relief and gratifying to know that we were able to, in fact, help on something that mattered so much to so many folks.

CO: You know, that, of course, in all these cases a family in torment wanting to know who did it. A little girl sexually assaulted and murdered. An innocent man sent to prison and 10 years of trying to clear his name. All of this was behind this story. How much did Canadian police tell you about this case when they brought it to you?

DM: We knew. I think what the general folks, you know, from public release. They didn't provide us with any additional or special details that weren't available. You know, we try to evaluate the cases on the basis of the evidence and whether our approach can be valuable in helping steer a case that's kind of stuck on lack of leads to a successful outcome.

CO: And biases and tunnel vision, these things that have been identified as the reasons why Guy Paul Morin was wrongfully convicted. He said at one point that he was acquitted in 1995 based on DNA evidence, it wasn't available in the 1980s. The acquittal for his conviction, he said, at that time that one day he'd like to see DNA in some way find the real killer. And that's exactly what's happened, hasn't it?

DM: Yeah. I think, you know, the number one way to exonerate someone, the best way to remove the cloud of suspicion that may set over many people that could be persons of interest is to determine what happened. And so I think people forget about that because sometimes they focus on finding the perpetrator of a crime. But for every identified perpetrator, there are so many other folks that have become peripheral victims that can regain some of their life when the right person is identified.

CO: How did you do it? Because what you had was the DNA, semen, from Christine Jessop's, the little girl's, clothing. And you were able to match it with the man who is now believed to have been the killer. So you didn't have genetic material from him. So how did you make the match?

DM: There are two things that are really innovative in what we do. The first one is we have a sensitive process for it. We're the only lab in the United States that has end to end process fully in-house. And it is a forensic process. We're not using consumer hardware, research lab equipment. It's a forensics only process that allows us to access information from essentially evidence that has failed other methods or other laboratories. So that's the first innovation. So the first time we can unlock information about evidence that otherwise has been not forthcoming.

CO: To do your work, you need genetic and genealogical data on thousands of people to make a match like this. So where did you get...

DM: The first thing you need is the data. And just to give you like a comparison, in a traditional forensic tests, you're looking for a handful of markers, maybe 20 markers. To do the kind of work that you'd want to do to enable genealogy or these kind of advanced investigative techniques, you need to collect tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of markers from evidence that has been largely poorly treated, right, it's old, it's degraded, there's not very much of it left.

CO: But the data you got is from all these people who are now so interested in finding their family trees and they send in their DNA samples to these genealogical investigations to find out who they're related to. So that's the material you're using, right, in order to identify -- to find a match?

DM: Well so what I'm doing is I'm generating data in my lab that comes from the crime scene. What I'm generating is data -- and this is what I was telling you, is like I can unlock information from crime scene evidence that previously was not able to be unlocked. And we get generated data from our laboratory on the crime scene. Then once we had that crime scene data then at that point, then we go to step two, which is what you're describing, which is that we can search genealogical databases for folks that are genetically related, perhaps distantly but genetically related to the DNA that we've unlocked from the crime scene, if that makes sense. There's two different pieces.

CO: Right. And is that in any way an invasion of privacy that you can make these comparisons with that data?

DM: Yeah, it's a good question. So when we do the search, we're searching in a subset of DNA data points or profiles in which people have explicitly consented or opted in to participate in a search. They may be interested in helping identify a victim. There's other cases like this one, where there is a perpetrator that is unknown. So there are people that choose for one reason or the other, just depends what resonates with your personal position to opt in or consent to using your data to help search. So, number one, we're not looking at DNA data, but we're just looking at relationships. So the only information we're really accessing is how someone is related to someone else, which is different than actually looking at their DNA, we are not looking at their DNA. The second thing is they've explicitly consented or opted in to participate. If they do not feel comfortable participating, then they do not opt in and they do not consent. They don't upload their data and it's fine. So I think there might be some confusion because I think people have conflated consumer testing companies which have databases of information and then data that law enforcement search. And those are different things.

CO: Well, David, I'm glad you were able to solve this one. It has really put a lot of people's minds at rest. And thank you for speaking with us.

DM: Sure. No problem.

CH: David Mittelman is the founder and CEO of Othram, the lab police employed to help them identify Christine Jessop's killer. We reached him in Woodlands, Texas.

[Music]

Halloween 2020 artist

Guest: James Worsham

CH: James Worsham doesn't usually decorate his front yard for Halloween, but for 2020, he decided to take part. And his neighbourhood probably wishes he hadn't because on his lawn right now is a horrifying, gut-wrenching display that he humbly describes as the scariest thing he could think of. We reached James Worsham in Nashville, Tennessee.

CO: James, if someone were to drive past your house in Nashville right now, what would they see on your lawn?

JAMES WORSHAM: There's a large wooden cut-out of the numbers "2020" with a sign next to it that says, "It was the scariest thing I could think of." Because literally it was the scariest thing I could think of. [Laughter]

CO: So no ghosts and goblins, no cobwebs or skeletons?

JW: Oh, there's a pumpkin or two out there. But I figured the letters were enough.

CO: What kind of reaction have you had to your scary display?

JW: It's been interesting to watch people stop in front of my house, but it's overall been pretty fun. I think people are laughing and smiling about it. And I guess it kind of struck a nerve with America and the world because people seem to be loving it so far.

CO: Well, lots of people can identify that 2020 is the scariest thing that they can think of. But for you in particular, it's been a bad year, right?

JW: Yeah, it definitely has not been the best. I try to be an optimist as much as I can, but this year has definitely put some trials into that. So it's been interesting. But here in Nashville in early March, we had a tornado that struck while I was out doing an installation up in Philadelphia. So I came home to basically the place that I worked, that I made all of my artwork, and that was really my sanctuary, my solace was just, you know, pretty much a grotto. It was now full of water. My whole new body of work I had spent at least a thousand hours of work on was now just trash. So that pretty much kicked off a wonderful year. My business was closed down for four months because I didn't have a place to work. And then as soon as I moved into a new location and I was so excited to get back into it, of course, the pandemic killed all of my projects. So all of my work dried up. Insurance kind of pulled a fast one on me. We had some, you know, awful family health scares. And it was just pretty much one of the worst years I can remember.

CO: I'm so sorry.

JW: Hey, it could've been worse, though. I tell myself that every day is that no matter what, I'm still breathing, I can still make a bad dad joke or two. And there's always tomorrow.

CO: You're a bad dad joke person.

JW: Oh, yeah. Puns are my weakness. [Laughs] I can't help myself.

CO: What kind of art work do you do? What was your business that you struggled with this year?

JW: So the core of our work was -- I did a lot of stuff for hotels and restaurants around the country. So I specialize in unexpected materials, you could say. I've made pieces out of bubblegum, 26,000 poker chips, army men, teacups, basically whatever I can get my hands on.

CO: And how many projects that got cancelled after the COVID-19 thing began?

JW: I would say about nine of my major projects all got cancelled. One of them got picked up and hopefully pushed on to 2021. But who knows?

CO: So can you say how much money you're out after the tornado and the pandemic?

JW: I would say I'm probably going to be making about an eighth of what I made last year. And it's kind of hard because, you know, making any art business work, but this was one that I thought I was actually doing pretty well with. So, yeah, taking that hit has been pretty rough.

CO: You mentioned there has been some illness in the family this year. Anybody that got the virus?

JW: No. Luckily, we have all dodged it, even though several of my family members are very very susceptible. But we've all dodged that. It's all just been other wild cards thrown into the mix.

CO: And so your family's all right then?

JW: Yes, we are. We're making it. Yeah, we're making it.

CO: So is it helping you get through this to see all the reaction you're getting to your Halloween decorations?

JW: Well, as I said earlier, I'm very much of an optimist. And if I can help other people get through it, then it kind of you know, it gives me a little bit more impetus to do better and just to keep pushing and keep striving, so yes. I would definitely say that seeing people smile and seeing people laugh and the response, it definitely motivates me and gives me a lot of encouragement.

CO: And people said things? What kind of responses have you had?

JW: My lovely neighbours love to take pictures of the people taking pictures of my house. [Laughs] It's just been funny. But I mean, I see people get back into their cars and they're just laughing words they share to their Instagram stories and they just, you know, have a bunch of smiley emojis because it's just what we're all going through. You know, we're just trying to make the best of a bad year.

CO: It's hard to imagine there could be anything that everybody would get in the way of a joke and putting 2020 on your lawn saying this is the scariest thing I can think of. There's nobody that doesn't get that, right?

JW: Exactly. Which is kind of why I'm so shocked that I'm like the first person that I've seen doing it. I'm honestly floored. Out of the whole world, I can't be the only one.

CO: How will you be celebrating Halloween?

JW: Probably hiding out. I think we're going to prep some goody bags that are grab-and-go so that people can take them. But I'm sure at least one person is going to take all of them. But, hey, 2020 rules apply, so it's fine. We tried. Other than that, we'll probably just be hiding out, watching a scary movie or two.

CO: And hoping that you're not putting a sign out next year of 2021 the scariest thing you could think of.

JW: No, I almost made a joke where I was going to figure out a way to swap to zero at the end for one. And then I was like, no, no, no, it's too soon. It's too soon. [Laughs]

CO: You're the optimist. We can't have you doing that.

JW: No, exactly. Besides, I have to save this one for the bonfire I want to have on New Year's Eve.

CO: Yes. Brilliant. James, I hope you have a Happy Halloween. And thank you.

JW: Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

CH: That was James Worsham in Nashville, Tennessee, talking about the display he has on his lawn right now for Halloween. If you'd like to see a picture of it, we've posted one to our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Bone

CH: And now, quote, unquote. [Music] Every organization that's been forced to go virtual has some kinks to work out. But sometimes those kinks are just things that software thinks are kinks. All this week, the Society of Vertebrate Paleontologists has been holding its annual meeting. Obviously, it was an online event. So if you wanted to submit a question, you had to type it into your computer and send it. And the program the society used to hold its sessions with then check your question for obscenities. But Vice News reports that this particular software was extremely overzealous. It didn't just filter out the usual four letter words, it also filtered out one pretty key one: bone. Given that paleontologists make their bones with bones, this presented a problem. And so did some other words the system automatically filtered, including crack, enlargement, pubic and stream, among others. So getting those banned words unbanned became a time consuming exercise because as Carlton University master's student Brigid Christison told Vice, "Words like bone, pubic and stream are frankly ridiculous to ban in a field where we regularly find pubic bones in streams."

[Music]

Part 2: Hamilton gym outbreak

Hamilton gym outbreak

Guest: Blake MacDonald

CH: Panting, wheezing, gasping, all of it so dangerously moist. A major strike against gyms when it comes to the spread of COVID-19. Gym owners in some regions of Ontario are grappling with shutdowns and outbreaks, including what's being described as a super spreader event at a spin studio in Hamilton that's now been linked to more than 70 infections. Today, dozens more gyms in York region were ordered to close as that area joins other COVID-19 hotspots in Ontario. And health officials are now weighing whether they should add new directives for fitness facilities across the province. Blake MacDonald is the president of Orange Theory Fitness Canada. We reached him in Edmonton.

CO: Blake, I know you've had a few of your studios shut down over the past few weeks, including another one today. How does that sit with you?

BLAKE MACDONALD: Yeah, I mean, obviously, we're disappointed. We would prefer to stay open for sure. We definitely understand that the government of Ontario trying to take some, you know, draconian measures to try and get control of the spread of COVID-19. So, you know, I certainly can relate or understand what they're trying to achieve with it. You know, I think as an industry, we would have liked to have maybe had some conversations about some alternatives to shutting down. You know, we think we have some options that we could have put forth that were alternatives to shutting down. And we're still hopeful that at some point in time we can have those conversations with the government of Ontario.

CO: But I guess when you get to having one spin studio with 72 people infected, most of them having been in the class, that's pretty scary, isn't it?

BM: It is scary. And I think it speaks to what we're seeing with these some of these larger outbreaks within, you know, fitness studios or enclosed fitness spaces is really due to, you know, sort of the aerosolize threat of spread of COVID. And so I think there are alternatives that we could look at for measurers, things like masking, and asking our participants, our members, to wear masks at all times during workouts. At Orange Theory, we've actually been piloting mask-only classes for some time at most of our studios in Canada, and we really believe that's a good alternative to, you know, escalating measures to make sure members are protected.

CO: Well, that's quite a tradeoff, isn't it? Because on the one hand, we know that wearing a mask when you're really exerting yourself, when you're doing the kind of exercise that a spin class does, though I've never taken one I've seen them, and people are...they're really at a sweat, aren't they? Breathing very heavily. It can't be a good thing to be wearing a mask. So how do you balance that out?

BM: Yes, it can be difficult. But, you know, we've gone and we found a supplier that actually is a bathing suit manufacturer -- manufactures a double pleated polyester mask. We use a mask bridge, which is the plastic most piece that goes underneath the mask and keeps the mask away from your mouth. We've tested it with an expert and, you know, we're receiving great reviews from it. So, you know, that's really what we're pushing for, is to have the chance to be able to utilize that type of technology alongside our mask-only classes to keep people safe and stay open.

CO: So have you had the experts in to check that out to see if that kind of technology of that kind of mask could actually reduce the -- well, it has be more than reduce, but that could stop the spread of infection inside your studios?

BM: We have actually. We actually engaged an infectious disease expert to come and take a look at that technology, get his own set of testing on that, and actually concluded that it was not only safe, but did a really good job of both filtration of aerosols and droplets. And it also, you know, was comfortable. That expert actually participated in mask-only classes in our studios and was really able to get comfortable with the fact that that's a great option for us.

CO: Is it easy to do it on your own, to make your own decisions and say, this is how I'm going to make my gym safer without regulations? What happens when the gym down the road doesn't do that? And so you don't have a competitive advantage.

BM: Well, Carol, you make a great point. And that is the problem, right? If government was to come back in and for example, in the markets, in the redzone markets in Ontario, where we are closed say, hey, listen, you know, you can reopen, but you have to have mask-only mandates, that would make it a lot easier as an industry to move that direction. And I think what we would see is some really good results in terms of eliminating any types of super spreader events and ultimately still allowing people the great experience of working out in a studio.

CO: You said you've been trying to have some conversations with government about that. So have you any indication that they might be moving in that direction and they're going to start mandating masks in the gyms?

BM: We're not sure. We have had that discussion with a number of different governments, provincial governments across Canada. You know, governments like Alberta have been extremely progressive in terms of their view of this and are looking very long and hard at that as an alternative, which is really great to hear. And I do think as governments -- and part of it is getting the right information in these people's hands and ensuring that, you know, if there are third-party experts on this, getting their opinions heard and understood by those government officials. So, you know, that's what we're really trying to do as Fitness Industry in Canada’s is our industry association, there are provincial councils across Canada. And those conversations are definitely being had, you know, at all levels.

CO: There is a petition by gym owners circulating in Ontario that has 11,000 signatures. Now they're arguing that gyms should be considered an essential service. Do you agree?

BM: Well, look, I see where they're coming from. Gyms, certainly on a holistic basis really do benefit society from the standpoint that they allow people to be healthy. You know, it's good for people's mental health to have something like that to go do. And, you know, I would agree that that sort of holistic health benefit outweighs some of the risks of exposure, especially if we can put in some measures whereby we can mask people and ultimately reduce or mitigate the aerosolized risk of spread. It's tough to get behind the actual words essential for fitness, but it is definitely a very important part of people's health and well-being. And we need to be aware of that. And certainly it's not good for a long term health and well-being of Canadians if a lot of these different gyms and studios shut down in the long run, I think we have to keep all of these things in mind when we make our decisions about what we do with industries like fitness.

CO: Blake, we'll leave it there. Thank you.

BM: Thank you Carol. I appreciate the opportunity.

CH: Blake MacDonald is the president of Orange Theory Fitness Canada. We reached him in Edmonton.

[Music

Stephen Shainbart

CH: Stephen Shainbart is from New York. But he didn't pay any attention to last night's dueling U.S. presidential town halls. He's had enough of American politics. He's left it all behind, literally. During the last election, Mr. Shainbart vowed to move to Canada if Donald Trump won the presidency. And that's exactly what he did. He spoke with CBC Toronto about why he made that decision for himself and for his son.

STEPHEN SHAINBART: I had been pondering it because I know about Trump my whole life. I'm a native New Yorker. And well before he went into politics or even The Apprentice, he was always in the local newspapers. I have known several people that know him directly and had interactions with him --very negative interactions. So I knew and I said if this guy gets elected, I'm going to consider becoming Canadian, to see even it's possible. And then he was elected and no one in New York City thought he could be elected. He won I think 18 percent of the vote in New York City. But I knew New York City is not the entire United States. And I thought he could win, it's possible. And when he did, I thought, now I'm going to have to consider it. But I have a 15 year old son in New York. And I took it very seriously, it was not a simple decision. And I had a long phone call with my sister, who also doesn't like Trump. And I said, can I do this? Because what about my son? And although I was also thinking about his long term welfare by becoming a dual citizen. And she knows me very well, we're very close, and she said, you know, it sounds to me like you've made up your mind, you just haven't admitted it to yourself yet. And that kind of made it ring true. And I decided right then I was going to do it. And the next day I started looking for Canadian immigration lawyer.

ISMAILA ALFA: You had your son's long term well-being in mind. Do you believe that it is better for him to be here in Canada as well?

STEPHEN SHAINBART: I think it's better for him to have the option of it. My plan is to sponsor him as a citizen and he will probably go to university here. And I do think about his long term welfare. Part of the reason is my father was in the Holocaust, he is a Holocaust survivor. His father -- my grandfather -- was killed in Auschwitz. And I don't think the same thing is going to happen in the United States, but what it did do is it taught me that democracies can die. Hitler was democratically elected. They can die. They can fall apart. There's no reason to think just because they exist that they're going to last forever and that terrible things can happen. And again, it's not gonig to turn into Nazi Germany, but even if the United States gets 10 percent as bad, that's more than bad enough.

CH: That was Stephen Shainbart speaking with Metro Morning host is Ismaila Alfa about why he moved to Canada after the last U.S. election.

[Music]

Thai protests

Guest: Aung Aung

CH: Protests are banned. Police are arresting activists and hauling them away. And yet young people in Thailand continue to demonstrate. Today, thousands of people gathered in Bangkok for the latest in a week of intense protests. They're calling for the resignation of the prime minister and for the country's powerful monarchy to be reformed. The pro-democracy protests are in defiance of an emergency decree by the government, which banned gatherings of more than four people. Police have detained at least 40 activists in this week's crackdown. Aung Aung is a 16 year old activist who has been out at the protests this week. We're using a nickname to protect her identity. She was on her way to tonight's protest when her friends urged her to go home. We reached her in Bangkok, Thailand.

CO: Aung Aung why did your friends tell you to turn around tonight or not go to the protest?

AUNG AUNG: So for today, when I was heading towards the protest, my mother and I received some news that it was getting very violent in the protest and more over the police were actually blocking the roads already. So none of the protesters can actually get in or get out.

CO: And your friends gone or what are you hearing from them, those who did go?

AUNG AUNG: Yes, I have several friends that went to the protest and about two or three of them got tear gassed. And right now, I have been looking through Twitter for some very recent news and talking to some of my friends who went to the protest and most of them had went into one of our university buildings, Chulalongkorn, and they were safe in there right now. However, there are several police outside. And during the protests, before the protesters were able to go into Chulalongkorn, they were actually arresting several protesters. And it was broadcasted live. And we could actually see -- I was able to see two protesters who were abducted by the police. And then I heard military officers speaking through the megaphone saying that the reporters, you know, have to leave -- how do you say -- the bridge?

CO: They don't want reporters there to document what's happening.

AUNG AUNG: Yes. They didn't want any reporters there. And then it was heard on the live that, you know, if reporters were seen, it was a green light to just arrest all of them.

CO: And so do you know if any of your friends have been detained or arrested tonight?

AUNG AUNG: None of my friends have been detained or arrested tonight, but recently one of our news platform has just announced that for today, 12 more protest leaders were announced that they are going to be arrested.

CO: You are 16 years old. You're a high school student. Many of the people out on the street are really quite young. Why is it important for you to be out there?

AUNG AUNG: It's important for us young generations to be out there because we will be the next generation of this country. And right now, with all the unjust laws, with all the unjust constitution that has been imposed and militarism culture here in Thailand, we now soon realize that if we do not come up to fight, if we do not come up to seek and ask for it and fight for our democracy, then when it's our time to rule for our country, there would be no order. There will be no justice or democracy or freedom left for us.

CO: What does your mother think of you taking part in this?

AUNG AUNG: My mother is very supportive. My family is very supportive of me coming out to speak and fighting for democracy. So it's quite nice to have a supportive family.

CO: But she's worried about you?

AUNG AUNG: Definitely like any parent would.

CO: We're seeing young people like yourself everywhere, from Hong Kong to the United States out in the streets. Are you motivated by the other movements that you see?

AUNG AUNG: Yes, definitely. One of my Hong Kong friends from Hong Kong recently contacted me and said that, you know, the situation that has happened here in Thailand, what she saw was very similar from what she has seen when she was protesting in Hong Kong. And this friend of mine in Hong Kong was a first aid front liner and she has shared her experience. And we have talked many times about democracy, our dreams for our future, and how we, the young generations are out here fighting. I think it's very nice and very comforting to hear that, you know, Thailand, it's not only us that we're fighting. There's many other countries, too, that are also fighting for democracy, that also share the same dream of equality and liberty.

CO: You wrote a letter to the prime minister in the summertime. What did you want him to do? Why did you want to directly speak to the prime minister and tell him something?

AUNG AUNG: I wanted him to hear from a civilian, just a normal teenage Thai student here that, you know, I am only a student that also cares much about my country. I am a student that cares a lot about the future of my country. And I want him to know that, you know, things are changing and he must be able to accept that as prime minister. I hope that, you know, once he listens, he will understand that, you know, none of the students here that are coming up to speak were not forced by any other adults were out here speaking on our own will because we are worried about our future. And he as a prime minister, with the amount of power he has, with power comes responsibility. And we want him to be responsible for the power he has.

CO: One of your protest leaders said that others will fight until their death. This is a quote, "We won't fall back. We won't run away. We won't go anywhere." Yet the authorities aren't backing down either. What would you consider to be victory? What would make you feel that you had accomplished what you're trying to do in the street?

AUNG AUNG: Victory would mean that all three demands are met. For example, we want a new prime minister. We don't want our current prime minister who was not elected. And secondly, we want the constituition to be written by the people. We want the police or the military to stop harassing the people like they are doing today. In the end, ultimately, the police and the military are supposed to be protecting the people. But today they have turned their guns against us and that would be considered victory. But personally, even as an activist, there is a very bleak hope that all this would happened due to the current circumstance that they are trying to silence us, trying to silence all the reporters, silencing every single protesters. Even today we see that, you know, all the protesters are students. Most of them are high school students. And they're out here using tear gas. You know, what could we expect in our next protest? Bullets? And it's unacceptable. It's the fear that they're trying to use to silence us.

CO: Will you go back out tomorrow?

AUNG AUNG: Yes, I think I will. And not just only tomorrow, for every protest in the future too.

CO: Aung Aung be safe out there. Thank you for speaking with us.

AUNG AUNG: Have a nice day.

CH: Aung Aung is a 16 year old activist in Bangkok. We're protecting her identity. And we'd like to thank Darika Bamrungchok, a journalist in Bangkok, for helping us connect with Aung Aung.

[Music]

BTS

CH: Seven young men, their fortunes bound together, forced to split every good thing that comes along seven ways. You picture those tiny slices of the pie and you can't help but feel for them. Unless the pie turns out to be really big, like unimaginably huge. Turns out you don't need to feel too bad for the seven member K-pop BTS, who hit new heights in their unstoppable meteoric rise this week. If you haven't been following along first, BTS brought in a couple hundred million on the road in 2019, trouncing all bands that were not Metallica. Then in August, they became the first all Korean band to top Billboard's Hot 100 chart. And now, even though the live performance side of the music industry is facing a major existential crisis, investors are showing some real confidence in these guys. This week's news would put a little extra spring in anyone's step, no matter how tightly choreographed, because now BTS has also had a smashing IPO. Shares in their record label, Big Hit Entertainment, jumped 91 percent from the initial public offering price on the first day of trading. Even after a major drop in share prices yesterday, the company is still worth billions, which means V, J-Hope, RM, Jin, Jimin, Jungkook, and Suga are splitting one pretty sweet pie.

[Music]

The Million Man March

CH: This summer, millions of Americans took to the streets to demand justice for George Floyd, Breonna Taylor and countless other Black Americans killed by police. And 25 years ago today, a similar march drew Black men of all ages, backgrounds and religions from across North America and around the world to Washington, D.C.: The Million Man March. It was organized by controversial Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan, who's been accused of misogyny and anti-Semitism. Which is why Clarence Page was wary when he showed up that day. Mr. Page is a national columnist for the Chicago Tribune and a Black American. But as he told, As It Happens host Michael Enright back in 1995, he was moved by the spirit of the event. Here's their conversation from our archives.

CLARENCE PAGE: Well, I must confess, I come there with my usual journalist's jaundiced eye. But I was impressed. I thought that Farrakhan would be able to get maybe half a million, which would be impressive enough because that would be more than the 1963 march that Dr. King made. But I think he got more than that, it looks like a million to me. I don't know what the official count is. But even more than that, more than the numbers, it was the spirit of it all, you know. People in many places were packed quite closely together and you couldn't get through without bumping into people. Everybody was very courteous and very nice and very friendly. There was a real warmth that sort of reminded me of a Black version of a very large Robert Bly Iron John fashion or something.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: And for what I could see on television, people weren't coming to the crowd and then going away. They were coming and staying.

CLARENCE PAGE: Yeah, I was kind of like Woodstock. They kept on coming. It was just enormous. And people were not coming because of Farrakhan. Almost everybody I talked to made a point of saying this, whether they like Farrakhan or didn't, they were coming to be with other Black men and to present a positive image to the world as a counterpoint to the negative images of Black American men that you see on TV so often. And I think they did that.

CH: That was Chicago Tribune columnist Clarence Page speaking with As It Happens about the Million Man March, which happened 25 years ago today in Washington, D.C..

[Music]

Part 3: Quebec Indigenous women report

Quebec Indigenous women report

Guest: Fannie Lafontaine

CH: A civilian observer has found that the agency responsible for investigating Quebec's police has made progress in addressing Indigenous complainants. But Fannie Lafontaine says the Bureau des enquetes independantes remains "unacceptably opaque." Professor Lafontaine teaches human rights law at Laval University. Her report comes five years after Indigenous women in Val-d'Or, Quebec began telling reporters their stories of being abused by police officers in the region. We reached Fannie Lafontaine in Quebec City.

CO: Professor Lafontaine, when you say that the Office of Independent Investigations in Quebec is, quote, unacceptably opaque, what does that mean?

FANNIE LAFONTAINE: Well, the BEI, which is the acronym in French for the independent investigations bureau, has been given the exceptional mandate to investigate since 2018 all criminal allegations made by Indigenous persons in Quebec against police officers. It's an exceptional mandate that follows the Montreal police mandate, which I've been observing since 2015. So one of the indicators that provides credibility and legitimacy to investigative bodies that are looking to police conduct is transparency. And this is what I'm saying in my report is that the SPVM, with my role as observer, has provided some kind of information to the public, to the communities, to the victims. But the bureau right now, the BEI, is lacking. It doesn't publish detailed reports on its investigation is very difficult ways to find anything, basically about its criminal investigations into criminal allegations made by Indigenous peoples. And I think that really badly affects its legitimacy.

CO: What kind of a range of complaints has there been? What kinds of behaviour did those things report?

FL: Well, my role as independent observer was to look at the Montreal police investigations into a wide range of allegations. But it all started with women, Indigenous women, in Val-d'Or in northern Quebec that made very damaging reports of sexual abuse, for instance. So in the 98 cases investigated by the Montreal police, there's quite a number of sexual misconduct complaints, assaults, and also what they call, you know, Starlight Tours -- so basically, the police bringing in an Indigenous person far away from the city. So basically, there's a very wide range of abuse, but quite a number of a sexual nature.

CO: As you say this really came to the public's attention when Radio-Canada's program Enquete, in 2015 they did an investigation of what Quebec provincial police had done -- they were accused of kidnaping, sexual assault, among other crimes of those women. What became of that?

FL: Well, actually, in the first phase of the investigations, which the investigation is done by the Montreal police between 2015 and April 2016, there were two criminal investigations launched. One of the men committed suicide. So it didn't reach very far. In this phase, it was 61 investigation files opened by the Montreal police between 2016 and September 2018. And there were six police officers who either faced criminal prosecutions or they were asked to respect the peace bond. So all in all, in 98 cases, there were in total eight files that led to some kind of a criminal prosecution.

CO: What does that do for the victims, for the women who took those complaints in? What effect has it have on them?

FL: The women in Val-d'Or were devastated. And this is what was very clear when the prosecutor's office here in Quebec announced that it will launch current investigations. What my role was as the civilian observer of the police investigation that led to the decision was to make sure that the police investigation was done properly, to sort of reassure the victim and the public that the fact that there is no criminal prosecution doesn't stem from a bust, so to speak, or not well done criminal investigation. But obviously it leads to a lot of disappointment. This, of course, is not unique to Indigenous victims. It's true of sexual assault cases in general, it is difficult to prove, and in some cases, they challenge facts that had happened a number of years ago. So it's obviously a disappointment.

CO: You say in the report that there is a well-documented distrust on the part of the public in general and Indigenous people in particular when it comes to police. What could possibly restore the trust of Indigenous people? These women that we're speaking from Val-d'Or, what could possibly at this point restore trust in the police in Quebec?

FL: Well, obviously, one has to be realistic -- it's going to take time. The police has a well-documented role in the colonial violence. But in the particular case of investigations into police misconduct, I think this is where transparency and another thing I think is representatively so that the investigative bodies hire Indigenous investigators, hired Indigenous staff. That gives a lot of legitimacy. And it's not only true to Quebec, it's true to cross the country. Indigenous peoples want to be back in to places of power, places of decisions. And I think that's something that can be done. That's one of my recommendations, well, a few recommendations around that issue of making sure that the BEI or other investigative bodies recruit in sufficient numbers Indigenous representatives within the ranks.

CO: At the same time as you're publishing this report, the premier of Quebec and his government continue to deny the existence of systemic racism. So what signal do you think that sends to Indigenous people?

FL: Well, it is a bad signal. I think you can't solve something you're not willing to name. So I think it is a step that should be taken by the government of Quebec, like police organizations, like other governments, the federal government have recognized. I think that's a very important first step. You know, when I issued my first report as a civilian observer following the Val-d'Or complaints, I mentioned systemic racism within police forces. There is a provincial commission of inquiry that also named it. All experts name it. I think it's sort of the basic observation stemming, you know, that my report starts from. But I think it also has to take immediate action. The new minister of Indigenous affairs here in Quebec is a former police officer, so I think perhaps all recommendations concerning measures to restore the trust between Indigenous peoples here and the police should be a first step as a sign of good faith in this new role.

CO: Okay, we'll leave it there. Professor Lafontaine thank you.

FL: Thank you very much.

CH: Fannie Lafontaine teaches human rights law at Laval University. We reached her in Quebec City.

[Music]

Princess Theatre

CH: For years, it's been a haunt for cinephiles and university students in Edmonton. But now the Princess Theatre has shut its doors. For now at least. TJ Brar says his family is putting the century old space up for lease. He's hoping someone will take over and keep the theater running. It's the second tough decision his family's made in 2020. Earlier this year, they also put the Plaza Theatre in Calgary up for lease. In an interview with the CBC, Mr. Brar spoke about what the pandemic has done to business at the Princess Theatre.

TJ BRAR: Pre-pandemic I mean it wasn't booming, but we for sure had quite a few customers prior to the pandemic. And then, unfortunately, things started to slow down. We had to come to a close. We reopened once things became safer. I feel like the theatre industry it isn't coming back to, you know, the way it is, unfortunately.

ADRIENNE PAN: How are you feeling about this TJ? Because it's the end of an era for your family. And you closed the Plaza Theatre in Calgary back in August.

TJ BRAR: It is quite heartbreaking, I am going to be quite honest. The theatre business, you know, just has such a major effect on our family. My dad's been doing this for many many years now. And I mean, it's just been a part of my childhood. So to see such an iconic building, such an iconic theatre close down, it truly is quite heartbreaking. I grew up in Calgary, so I grew up around the Plaza Theatre so even when it came time to shut that down, I was actually nearly on the verge of tears, to be quite honest, because I have such fond memories just growing up there and just seeing my dad load the film projectors. And my father is definitely quite upset about this. But unfortunately with COVID it leaves no choice.

ADRIENNE PAN: Yeah. How did you manage to make such good popcorn over all the years?

TJ BRAR: [Laughs] I'd say that's actually a secret recipe. I don't think I'm at discretion to share that. That's something you're going to have to ask my dad. And I don't even think he'll give you the recipe for that. I mean, I couldn't even tell you what it is, because he hasn't even told me that either.

ADRIENNE PAN: We're all hoping the princess is resurrected. But it feels like a part of Edmonton and what makes it unique has died.

TJ BRAR: I wouldn't say necessarily died. I'd just say, put to rest for now. That's for sure. Hopefully when the pandemic ends then maybe we'll see the doors open again. And maybe once the movie industry kind of gets back up on its feet then we'll see a couple more movie start to roll in. So I wouldn't say it's bad. I just say it's getting its beauty sleep for now unfortunately.

CH: That was TJ Brar speaking with CBC Edmonton's Adrienne Pan on Radioactive yesterday. His family has put the city's Princess Theatre up for lease.

Hermey The Elf

[Christmas Music]

CH: I know, I know, I'm sorry. Halloween is still weeks away. We're barely into pumpkin spice season. You haven't even asked us when The Shepherd will air this year: Christmas Eve, by the way. But I've got to talk about Rudolph and the guy in the red suit for a second. Yesterday, an auction house in California announced that the Rudolph and Santa figurines used in the 1964 stop motion animation classic Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer will be sold next month. They're expected to fetch 250,000 dollars. Now, you might wonder whether the auction house had one too many special eggnogs before coming up with that estimate. But do you recall the most famous Rudolph adaptation of all? Here's a clip to jog your memory.

VOICE 1: Hey, what do you say we both be independent together, huh?

VOICE 2: You wouldn't mind my red nose.

VOICE 1: Not if you don't mind me being a dentist.

VOICE 2: It's a deal.

CH: That's the famous scene where Rudolph meets his new friend and fellow misfit, Hermey the elf who wants to be a dentist. And after hearing Hermey's voice you're probably now remembering Rudolph in the elf going to find the island of misfit toys. Then again, Hermey's voice may have triggered another memory. Hermey isn't on the auction block, but he was on As It Happens.

VOICE: From coast to coast on the CBC Radio Network and around the world on shortwave, this is As It Happens. [As It Happens Theme]

ELIZABETH GRAY: Hello. I'm Elizabeth Gray.

PAUL SOLES: Good evening, I'm Paul Soles, sitting in for Alan Maitland.

CH: That theme! Former as it happens, guest host Paul Soles, who hosted a handful of times in the 80s long after he'd voiced Hermey the Elf. In 2014 to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the Christmas special, Paul Soles spoke to CBC Calgary and started by explaining how he came up with that voice.

PAUL SOLES: It suggested itself -- can I call you David?

DAVID GRAY: You can.

PAUL SOLES: By the way, I like your [inaudible]. They're very good. Anyway, the voice suggested itself, David. They showed us a still picture of the puppets they were going to be animating in Japan and a little bit of the script and the story as they had outlined it was one of, you know, people having trouble and then being redeemed. And that was really kind of positive and terrific. No dirty words. Nice music. The voice just came out of this little picture of an elf who's got to be short and small and childlike. Even though Hermey was and still is very serious. So you had the best of both worlds.

DAVID GRAY: Why do you think it's endured as a Christmas classic? Did you know at the time we'd be talking about this 50 years later?

PAUL SOLES: No, I don't think we thought maybe a year or two was a charming story. It's turned out, as you're probably aware, this is not bragging, but it apparently is the most popular Christmas special of all time. And I think the reason is every one of us has sort of felt to be a bit of an outsider or not belonging some time or another in our lives. Either you don't make the team or you're chosen last to be on the school team or your teacher doesn't much find your work worthy or your parents scold you or something makes you feel "I just don't fit in" -- until you get older and mature and wise. But everybody, particularly when you're young, it's very crushing for a youngster to be rejected. So everybody feels that and remembers that. And here are these two who pair up and decide to make a business out of being misfits and they are redeemed and they redeem the holiday.

DAVID GRAY: Mr. Soles, an absolute joy speaking with you. Merry Christmas.

PAUL SOLES: My great pleasure. Have a good and healthy holiday. And David.

DAVID GRAY: Yes.

PAUL SOLES: Floss. Don't forget to floss. You and the kids. Twice a day. [Laughter]

CH: 2014 voice actor and former As It Happens guest host Paul Soles speaking with David Gray about voicing Hermey the elf in Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer.

[Music]

Music of the mind

Guest: Angie Coombes

CH: Angie Coombes is making musical history today in Calgary. She's the first person to use her brainwaves and the TONTO analog synthesizer to make music. Here she is describing how her colleague, Mitchell Claxton, is using his mind to control the volume of the sound coming from the synthesizer.

ANGIE COOMBES: So Mitchell is controlling the volume of the sound coming from TONTO. Right now, he's in a little bit of a high stress state and then in a second, he's going to calm down here and turn the sound on TONTO down. Well, now he's going to turn it back up by getting a little more stressed out. Perfect.

CH: Angie Coombes describing how her colleague controls the volume with his mind. Ms. Coombes is using her mind to make music this weekend at the National Music Centre in Calgary. That's where we reached her.

CO: Angie it just sounds so charming. I've seen the video, so I know what's going on, but maybe you can describe what's happening.

ANGIE COOMBES: So what we're doing is we are controlling the world's largest analog synthesizer. It's called TONTO. We're controlling it with our brainwaves. So basically in the video, we have our engineer, Mitchell. He's wearing a brainwave headset made by a company called Emotiv. And that brainwave headset is taking the electrical activity from his brain, it's being processed through some software on a computer. And what we're doing is pulling more, I guess, what you would call the more emotional type states from the brainwave data.

CO: What I can see in the visual is that the engineer is quite agitated. His foot is flying, the tapping of the foot is quick. And then he goes into a complete Zen like state and that's where we heard that sound go down. And then he's hyper again. So was it just visual or was he mentally instructed to do something with his mind in order to make that happen?

AC: So for that, it was more based on his stress response. What we discovered, it's a little bit of an experiment because each brain is different. So when he does something, what he might do is different than what I might do and get a different response. But he found that as he was sitting there when he started shaking his legs, that it actually almost like elicited more of a stress response for his brain. So he's kind of using that shaking of the legs to create a stress response. And then when he kind of goes into more of a meditative state, he'll take a few deep breaths, which will actually calm the brain, decrease the stress response. And that is what turns the volume down on TONTO.

CO: When you do this, what do you think about this?

AC: For my brain what we've found is we actually looked at the excitement parameter and I always knew I was a pretty curious person just by nature. But it turns out when I think a question in my head, specifically, if I am asking a question about why something is happening, it will actually make my brain really excited. So we've actually been finding for my brain, just asking questions in my head will turn the sound up. And then if I go into more of a calm state or think about something like an apple, it will actually decrease the sound on TONTO, the volume of the sound.

CO: Is it just the volume that you can control with your brainwaves or is it the actual little tune that you're playing?

AC: So we haven't played with pitch yet. But we will be experimenting with that later today and tomorrow. So far this morning, we've worked on the volume parameter and then we'll also be doing more percussive things like arpeggiation, things like reverb, delay. So we're really just going to be trying a whole bunch of different things over the next couple of days with TONTO.

CO: What do you think you can ultimately do then with your brainwaves?

AC: I think we'll be able to change a lot of the qualities of the sound on TONTO. In terms of controlling specific melody, I feel that the technology isn't quite there yet, but we will be able to modulate things I think in a pretty accurate way as soon as we know what our brain functions are actually doing and being able to pinpoint that and then use that to control the sound.

CO: Why did you choose this particular synthesizer, the TONTO analog?

AC: I think was really the thing that attracted me to that is that it's an old instruments. It was built in the late 1960s and it's electronic based. But really, when you look at the instrument for its time, it was really extremely advanced. Now, when we look at these new brainwave technologies, I just felt it was really a neat, unique artistic opportunity to merge something really modern with something really old but still kind of modern in its day and age. So I think that's sort of the artistic concept that we're going for.

CO: It's got quite a backstory, doesn't this synthesizer with Stevie Wonder? What's the story there?

AC: Yes. So the synthesizer, TONTO, was invented by a gentleman named Malcolm Cecil. The TONTO was used in some of Stevie Wonder's music, and Malcolm was part of that production too. So it's really exciting that such an iconic musician like Stevie Wonder even used TONTO.

CO: So you're actually going to recorded album this way? Is that right?

AC: Yes. So what we've done, it'll be a six song EP album. We're going to release it next spring, in spring 2021. What we've done is we've come into the studio with some basic chord progressions, some demo vocals already recorded. So we have the structure for the song which will help sort of lead the direction for the types of brainwave controlled sounds that we'll make with TONTO. And then we'll take those brainwave controlled sounds and put them in the songs on the album.

CO: And what do you think that will say to musicians? I mean, this is, I guess, the ultimate goal, isn't it, to actually be in the place where your mind is able to actually express your thoughts and emotions through your instrument? Do you think that is that part of the appeal?

AC: Yeah, I think just the applications. I think the feature of the whole application of the technology is really exciting. Right now in terms of music production, it takes quite a bit of time to, even with the existing digital audio workstations that we have now and virtual instruments, it still takes quite a bit of time to make a song from beginning to end. So just thinking out into the future, wouldn't it be so exciting if you could just think the melody that's in your head and have it actually come out into the software and remove all the middle stuff in between.

CO: When that's actually possible, people will look back at this musical history moment that you having in Calgary.

AC: Yeah, yeah. That's the hope.

CO: Well, best of luck to you Angie. Thank you.

AC: Thank you so much.

CH: Angie Coombes is an artist and musician. She's using her brainwaves along with the TONTO analog synthesizer to make music. We reached her in Calgary. And you can learn more about this story on the National tonight on CBC TV.

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October 16, 2020 Episode Transcript

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