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The AIH Transcript for April 27, 2020

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CH: Cruel and, soon, unusual. Saudi Arabia says it will stop flogging as a form of punishment. But the lawyer representing one imprisoned activist says there's a long way to go before his client sees justice.

CH: Send in the dressing gowns. Meryl Streep, Christine Baranski and Audra McDonald toast Broadway composer Stephen Sondheim for his 90th … as they drink at home in bathrobes.

CH: And...Sundaes, bloody sundaes. In New York City, animosity between ice-cream truck drivers is parfait for the course — and in tonight's interview from the archives, Ricardo Cruz shares the hard truths about soft-serve.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Quebec reopening schools, Pelham COVID outbreak, ice cream wars

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FRANCOIS LEGAULT: We've chosen not to reopen high schools, CJFs and universities. This will limit the traffic in public transports. And we consider that primary school childrens will benefit the most from the remaining school weeks, especially children in difficulties. This reopening will be gradual. It won't be obligatory, so the children won't all come back at the same time. We will analyze the situation every day and adjust if necessary. The watchword here is prudence.

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CH: That's Premier Francois Legault speaking today about plans to begin reopening Quebec schools, starting on May 11th. Not everyone is convinced that that's s a good idea. Heidi Yetman is the President of The Quebec Provincial Association of Teachers. We reached her in Montreal.

CO: Ms. Yetman, you heard Premier Legult say it's time for life to go on, and that he's going to be prudent as he opens the elementary schools. What do you make of that decision?

HEDI YETMAN: Well, when I heard the press conference today, I have to say that I was quite surprised. Not so surprised for the May 11th date for regions, because there are less cases in the regions. But very surprised with the May 19th date for the region of Montreal. And as you know, the region of Montreal has most of the COVID-19 cases in the province of Quebec. The province of Quebec also has 50 per cent of all cases in Canada. So this is really, really concerning. And when you look across Canada, there are no other provinces right now that are even considering reopening the schools.

CO: Okay, so what's your greatest concern if the schools in Montreal open?

HY: My greatest concern is the safety and health of our teachers, of course. I worry a lot about kids getting sick. Now, I understand that they don't show as many symptoms, but then returning that home with them. They have lots of adults that are around them. And so children are going to get sick, and they're going to bring back home. And I'm really worried.

CO: The premier said that the return is voluntary, that parents don't have to send their kids if they are worried or think it's the wrong thing to do. So does that mitigate the situation, in your view?

HY: Well, it will keep the class sizes down a little bit. Today, there was announcement to say that class size would be fifteen, but I'm sure that not all parents are going to send their children to school. So that will bring down the numbers. The concern there is also that, you know, schools then become basically daycares. And I kind of wonder about the pedagogical piece there. Are we really opening schools for pedagogy, or are we opening schools so that parents can go back to work and start the economy?

CO: I guess the underlying thinking of this decision on the part of Quebec is that the premier believes that there can be something called natural immunity or herd immunity and that if more were exposed, if people were who were at less risk of getting really sick, were exposed to it, then they could develop the antibodies and we could move toward a population that could deal with this. What do you think of this idea of herd immunity?

HY: Well, the premier was very clear today. He said that is not the reason that they're reopening schools. He had five other reasons. And that, he said, was not one of the reasons, because there are so many different viewpoints on that. As a matter of fact, one of the reasons that he is going forward is because the situation in hospitals here in Quebec is under control. And that's really concerning. In other words, we have beds available as anybody gets sick. That's what he's basically saying.

CO: But also, it's been the case that children seem to get lighter cases of it, that they don't get sick when they do come in contact or get sick at all. And so it isn't some of the premise that they are perhaps a low-risk group that could benefit from being back in kind of normal life?

HY: Yes. And that was brought up as well today. Absolutely, children are low-risk, but it takes a lot of adults to run a school [slight chuckle]. So even if there is one or two cases in a school. it could be passed on to an adult, where their case might be worse. But there are just so many questions, even is there going to be additional staff to ensure the proper cleaning and disinfection of the buildings, for example, bus drivers, school bus drivers, 40 per cent of them are 60 and over. So there's so many things that we're worried about.

CO: And the education minister is stressed this afternoon that the reopening of the Montreal area schools would only happen, quote, if conditions allow. How likely do you think the city will be ready for this in three weeks’ time?

HY: I don't think it will be ready. I mean, today, they announced over 800 new cases in Quebec. I believe it was like something like 84 deaths in the last 24 hours. [sighing in amazement] That's scary stuff. You know, we're still deep in this. You know, before the pandemic, there were a lot of issues. So we're really worried, obviously.

CO: When you say worried, what are your colleagues, what do the other teachers you're speaking with, What are their thoughts about going back to work?

HY: Well, a lot of them are asking about their medical condition. So teachers that are over 60, or even teachers that are over 50, I've had a few that have said to me, you know what? I still had a few years to go. I think I'm going to retire. I really don't want to put my life at risk. A lot of them have been talking about, well, you know, I live with a child that has asthma, or I live with my husband, who had cancer. What's going to happen to him if I get sick? So it’s a lot of questions about their health and they're very, very concerned about getting sick.

CO: The premier is making this clear that he says this is for the kids. He's doing it for children in difficulty, children who need breakfast programs, children who would benefit from having schools open. Do you think that's the reason? What do you think is behind the reason to open the schools?

HY: That's what he's saying. And I agree to a certain point. Of course, as an educator myself, those are the kids that you always think about, you know, when things aren't going well. But there are other ways to do this. We have emergency daycares that are open in Quebec. We could do something on that line if we need kids to get back into a routine. We could also do day camps, things like that. We could have, you know, younger people taking care of them. Since school is not going to be obligatory, I don't think there's going to be a lot of pedagogy going on. So there are some things that we could do to help those kids. It's a very difficult situation. On one side, you think we've got to open eventually. I just feel at this point, we're jumping the gun a bit here in Quebec.

CO: All right. We'll be watching what happens in Quebec, many people in the country will, to see how that works. And I appreciate speaking with you, Ms. Yetman. Thank you.

HY: It's been a pleasure. Thank you for having me.

CH: Heidi Yetman is the President of The Quebec Provincial Association of Teachers.

[Music: Electronica]

Pelham COVID outbreak

Guest: Marvin Junkin

CH: There was a time when many of us would barely notice if a colleague had the sniffles or a cough at work. But right now, an Ontario politician is at the centre of a story that shows just how far gone those times are. Ron Kore is a town councillor in Pelham, Ontario. He also runs a local grocery store. Last month, he's reported to have attended a council meeting in person, showing symptoms of a cold. A few days later, another councillor who was in that meeting, Mike Ciolfi got sick too. Very sick. On April 13th, Mr. Ciolfi died. His offical cause of his death has not been released. In a phone call, Ron Kore said he has "no comment at this time." But in a statement put out later, Mr. Kore said that he followed physical distancing requirements, and monitored himself for symptoms. Marvin Junkin is the mayor of Pelham, Ontario. That's where we reached him.

CO: Mayor Junkin, can you just take us back to that town council meeting you had March 23rd? Ron Kore was there. What did you make of his decision to attend in person?

MARVIN JUNKIN: Well, I never realized at the time, during the whole meeting, that Mr. Kore was exhibiting certain signs, whether it be a runny nose and a cough. It was only after the meeting, the clerk and I were putting away papers that she made the comment that it was that she couldn't believe that Mr. Kore had attended the meeting when he was so obviously the under the weather.

CO: And were there others who had noticed that he was not well and that he was at the meeting?

MJ: Yes. Yes. There was other staff members that that said the same comment. Yes.

CO: At what point did you learn that your colleague, Mike Ciolfi, had become quite ill with, and had tested positive for COVID-19?

MJ: So Mike was at that meeting on the 23rd. I had got word the next Saturday that he was indeed feeling of had a fever, aches and pains. And he was quite sick. Around April, the 11th or 12th, that I heard, second-hand again, that he had tested positive for COVID-19.

CO: And he died?

MJ: Yes, he died the early morning of April the 13th. Yes.

CO: I'm sorry for your loss.

MJ: Oh, he was such a great guy. It was his first year on council. And I didn't know him before he got elected. So I just know for the year-and-a-half. But a great individual, and a great councillor for sure.

CO: What concerns are there that Mr. Ciolfi if he had been at that meeting, and I guess in some proximity to Mr. Kore?

MJ: Well, like I said, it's all on tape. We we at the town of Pelham, we tape all of our meetings. We livestream them. So, yes, they were sitting be it six or eight feet apart, I guess. It must be pointed out that it never was, and of course, it would be impossible to say for sure which way the virus travelled.

CO: And we don't know if Mr. Kore, whether he had COVID-19 at that point. He tested for it much later. Is that right?

MJ: Yes, that's right. And again, Mr. Kore has not contacted myself or the town since the meeting of April the 6th. So anything I hear about Mr. Kore’s health is either through the newspapers or websites or what have you. So I am going by his release yesterday, I believe it was on the 17th that he finally got tested. And on the 20th, he was found to be positive for COVID-19.

CO: In that statement, Mr. Kore said that he had followed all the rules all the way along, that when he had attended that meeting in March, he had obeyed rules of physical distancing, that he had tried to get a test for COVID, but was told that he didn't have the right symptoms. And he said I would never take a risk with my health, the health of my wife, employees or colleagues at town hall. What's your response?

MJ: I believe that after the middle of March, or even cross-subsidy beforehand, that the government was saying that if you have these symptoms, please do not go out in public. And I believe the symptoms were inclusive, whether it be a headache, fever, a runny nose, definitely a cough. So I'm afraid that Mr. Kore should have been a little more careful. I mean, that may have been a cold at that time, a typical cold symptom. But the fact that he did have those symptoms, I was kind of disappointed that he did make the decision to attend March 23rd.

CO: Your local paper, The Voice of Pelham, reports that they have learned that at least two others who were in the room for that March meeting have subsequently tested positive for COVID-19. Is that the case?

MJ: Yes, that's right. Two of Pelham senior staff that attended that meeting, they did test positive. I am very happy to report that both of them. one of them, is now outside of the curfew time. And both of them, thankfully, so far have had mild, relatively mild symptoms.

CO: That paper, The Voice of Pelham, was also reporting that Mr. Kore showed up for work at the Sobeys grocery store, that he's a franchisee, even as he was showing these symptoms. What did you think when you heard that?

MJ: If those comments made by the employees are true, it is disheartening that a citizen, where especially working in a grocery store, would go out into the public with those kind of symptoms. And it was well-known at that time, that if you didn't feel 100 per cent, that the word was, please stay home.

CO: What would you say to Ron Kore if you could speak with him now?

MJ: Well, I would just express my disappointment in perhaps his decisions. And, yeah, I guess that's all I would say, is that he should have shown a little more wisdom in staying home, perhaps.

CO: And are you healthy?

MJ: Yes. Actually, I also had a test. My wife and I both took the test for COVID-19. We got tested on Thursday. We haven't got the results back yet. But I'm feeling great. My wife is fatigued. But I have been told that if we didn't get a call on Sunday from a registered nurse, then we were probably both test negative.

CO: All right. I'm glad you're healthy. Mayor Junkin, thank you.

MJ: Okay. Thanks for having me. Have a good day.

CH: Marvin Junkin is mayor of Pelham, Ontario. That's where we reached him.

CO: What difference will this decision make for Raif himself?

IC: Well, I don't know if it makes that much of a difference in his condition and situation, although I'm sure he's pleased with the general step forward. He's now in his eighth year of imprisonment. He was first arrested in 2012, and he's convicted in 2014 and sentenced to ten years in prison and a thousand lashes. They administered the first 50 of those lashes, then did not administer the rest because he was in serious condition at that point. So I think that will put an end to his flogging, but it doesn't put an end to his situation. He remains imprisoned, tragically, for saying in 2012 when he was arrested for saying then what the crown prince Mohammed bin Salman has been saying these past two years, namely calling for a more moderate Islam, a more open Saudi Arabia. His lawyer was arrested and sentenced to 15 years in prison. His sister remains in prison for calling for the right to drive, a reform that the crown prince, to his credit, instituted, but then arrested the women who called for the right to drive. So he is deprived of being reunited with his family. As you know, his wife and three children are Canadian citizens. So this constant imprisonment constitutes for himself a form of cruel and inhumane treatment.

CO: As you point out, the inconsistencies are the one giving with one hand, taking with the other. This seems to be what Muhammad bin Salman has been saying, that these are reforms. Why do you think that the crown prince and the Saudi leadership have decided to make these reforms, including withdrawing, flogging as a punishment at this particular point?

IC: Well, I think we shouldn't ignore that other things have been going on. It's the kind of reforms, but repression at the same time. Saudi Arabia executed a record number of people in 2019. On Friday, and this is a tragic thing, Abdullah al-Hamid, who's the most celebrated public intellectual referred to by Jamal Khashoggi as the Mandela of South Africa, died in prison because of a lack of medical treatment. So you have all these negative things, but at the same time, Saudi Arabia wants to refurbish its position internationally. And so it's opened up certain space, entertainment area, civic space and the like. So you have both repression and reform. But the repression has been greater than the reforms. And the reforms very often, while still welcome, are largely cosmetic, whereas the repression is quite serious.

CO: I’m wondering what messages as part of the international community, what Canada should take from this? As you know, and back in 2018, in the summer, Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia Freeland criticized the Saudi kingdom over its human rights violations, including the arrests of Raif Badawi's sister Samar. As you know, that Saudi Arabia kicked out our diplomats and our ambassador. Do you think it's time to now reach out and to repair that?

IC: Well, as you recall, when the Saudi Arabian authorities erupted in fury for Canada doing nothing other than asking for his release, regrettably, none of the international community came to Canada's defence, not one democracy. And this, as I wrote at the time, took us down the road to the brutal murder of the journalist Jamal Khashoggi, because MBS felt emboldened by the silence of the democracies. Khashoggi’s brutal murder served as a wakeup call. And then the democracy started, in fact, to call for the release of Badawi, et cetera. I think at this point, what Canada should do is join the international community that is calling for his release, to join those who have said that his releases even mandated under Saudi Arabian law and Islamic law. And we filed a clemency appeal with the crown prince, who responded to it, but not yet with Badawi's release. We should join with the European Union that have called for his release, or the U.S. Commission on Religious Freedom. In other words, there are international calls. And now that Canada’s renewed arms exports to Saudi Arabia, and he is Raif Badawi, married to a wife and children who are Canadian citizens, we have clear standing here. And as we move towards the G20, which Saudi Arabia is chairing, I would put it to Saudi Arabia that, in fact, It's in its self-interest at this point to release Badawi, because it has been suffering reputational damage with the continuing imprisonment of him, his lawyer and his sister, the brutal murder of Khashoggi, the intervention in Yemen, the death now of Abdullah al-Hamid. I believe that this would be the opportune time. It's Ramadan. Now's the time for the call to go out. And for Saudi Arabia to heed that call, not only as a matter of justice but in its own self-interest.

CO: Do you think there's a chance that family, those three children, the wife here in Canada, that they will see Raif Badawi leave prison?

IC: I believe they will see Raif leave prison. I hope it is not after the further ten-year sentence after he is released, where the conviction said he would not be allowed to leave Saudi Arabia. As I say, it is now both a matter of justice and a matter of self-interest. And I would hope that Saudi Arabia understands it's now the time for them to release Badawi, allow him to be reunited with his family and thereby be able to chair the G20 without having to be standing in the docket of the accused, as they will be if they don't release him.

CO: Mr. Cotler, we will leave it there. And we will continue to follow this story. Thank you so much.

IC: Not at all. Good speaking with you.

CH: Irwin Cotler is the founder of the Raoul Wallenberg Centre for Human Rights. He is one of Raif Badawi's lawyers. And he was in Montreal.

[Music: Ambient]

FOA: Ultra-marathoner

CH: In a tweet this weekend, Gary Robbins wrote that his body was "completely wrecked." And fair enough. The B.C. man had just finished running 160 kilometres, with more than 5,000 metres of climbing. Physically challenging. And mentally, too. Because it was tedious: he did it all on a special treadmill in his garage, to raise money for the B.C. Search and Rescue Association. Mr. Robbins is an ultra-marathoner who you may know for his attempts at the Barkley Marathons. It's among the most extreme, extreme events. No Canadian has ever finished it. Mr. Robbins had been training for a fourth try this year. But the Tennessee event was cancelled because of the coronavirus. Back in 2017, we spoke with Gary Robbins, a week after his second attempt at the Barkley Marathons, which he came heartbreakingly close to finishing. He spoke with Carol about how the race works.

GR: This course is known to be longer than a marathon per lap. It's five laps, so the distance is anywhere from, it's believed to be anywhere from 120 plus miles, so well over 200 kilometers long. You have 60 hours to get to the finish line. There are 67 thousand feet of climbing and descent, which is base sea level to the top of Everest and back twice and there's no flagging and the majority of it is off trail bushwhacking.

They hide books in the forest and you pull a page out of the book that correlates with your bib number to prove that you've gone the right direction on the course.

CO: And you're doing this without sleep, we should point out. Like 60 hours, last year when we spoke with you, when you when you attempted this race, you said you were hallucinating at some point. Did the same thing happen again?

GR: So yeah, as you mentioned, you know there's no time for sleeping. It's a 60 hour cut off and if you have any chance of finishing, you're going to be moving for all but a few minutes of those 60 hours. This year I managed to get about 25 minutes of sleep. And then on the fifth lap, last year we talked about hallucinations. This year, I used music, which helps to focus my mind a little bit more. But I did still manage a couple of them on that last lap halfway through I went through the night into the sunrise although it was a dreary day, so there wasn’t much of a sunrise and about an hour into the day, I started seeing bright flashes of light in my peripheral. The first one I thought was a car, the second one I thought was a headlamp, and then I realized that this was going to be my blessing of a hallucination this year, was blinking and seeing bright lights around me.

CO: It was clearly angels who were watching over you.

GR: That's right exactly. And the second hallucination that occurred was, while I was listening to my music, I was listening to more beat based music rather than lyrical, and the operator voice that you get when you call in to get your phone messages, she decided to make an appearance and was actually talking over the beat based music that I was listening to.

CO: For real or did you just imagine that?

GR: Well of course it is all in my head and ears and imagination and a hallucination. But I started hearing a voice in the music and it sounded all too familiar. And about a minute later I thought, this is the voice that I hear when I call in to get my phone messages.

CO: Why does this race matter so much to you? Why do you… I mean people say how do you do it. Why do you do it?

GR: When I got into the sport I was 27 years old. I got into expedition adventure racing. My goal was truly to find what my outer markers were and my outer limit. I actually said at the time that I wanted to be confronted with being on my knees and questioning how I could possibly go a step further. Through the years of doing the expedition racing it evolved into the ultra-running. I learned about the Barkley many years ago. It sounded like the ultimate human test.

How do you possibly solve this Rubic's cube of the physical, mental and navigation and up against a clock that doesn't stop ticking? From the first day I heard of it, I knew I always wanted to do it. Now that I've come so close twice it's just so bittersweet to be having this conversation about having a second time not finished and know that at some point I will need to return a third time.

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CH: From our archives, that was Canadian ultra-marathoner Gary Robbins speaking with Carol back in April of 2017.

Coronavirus “Gruffalo”

Guest: Axel Scheffler

CH: We're all a bit more bored, frustrated, impatient and emotional than we were six weeks ago. So imagine how kids feel. If you have young kids at home, you don't have to imagine. But Axel Scheffler started thinking deeply about that question. He's the children's book illustrator behind books like "The Gruffalo." And he's just illustrated a new book called "Coronavirus: A Book for Children." Since it was released two weeks ago, it's been downloaded more than a million times — and published in 45 languages. We reached Axel Scheffler in London, UK.

CO: Axel, why do you think so many people and children are reading this book online?

AXEL SCHEFFLER: Well, I think there's a great hunger for information, and that was one of the ideas where the publisher wanted to do the book because families and children are worried, they're scared and they want some some good facts about the virus. And I think, yeah, I noticed many institutions tweeting at schools to commend it’s recommended to read for children.

CO: Did you think that you would have within a few weeks a million downloads and 45 languages?

AS: I did not expect that. That's really mind-boggling the number of readers this book has found. And, I mean, it's obviously it's free, and it's digital. And so it could be done very fast. And it spreads on social media like a normal book; it could never happen like that. But for me, it's overwhelming really .

CO: Where did the inspiration for the book come from?

AS: Well, it was the publisher, Kate Wilson. I’ve been working with her for a long, long time. And she talked to a friend of hers, who is the head teacher in a school in east London. And she was telling her about the worry of many, many children, and the questions that children ask. And then Kate had the idea to do this book and do it quickly. It's a relatively small publishing house, so they can really act very, very fast. And that's what they did.

CO: And you do set it up as a series of questions that kids probably have about what's going on and why is this happening? And then you answer them, a couple of them that I think that are really striking. Kids seem to want to know how they can help. What do you tell the kids? What’s the message for kids about that?

AS: It's meant to be able to help them in everyday life. And what they can do and what they can't do. Things like don't go and visit your grandparents, because they are in a high-risk group. And so it has it has those kind of practical advice, to wash their hands and keep the distance and all that that will help to try and stop the spread of the virus. So that's the practical advice in the book.

CO: What do you hope that kids take away from it?

AS: Well, I think information is a good thing because it makes you less worried. And I don't know what kids here, but there's so many wrong informations and rumours and fake news about the virus. I think it's very important to give them something they can rely on and, yeah, factual information they should get and some sense of positive outlook. I hope we're not completely wrong with that, but hopefully, when one day soon this will be over or eased, the pressure on children because it can't go on like this. The pressure on families is too big, I think. So we hope, yeah, we hope to give them a little bit of a positive feeling.

CO: How difficult was it just as the Illustrator to try and to show kids what viruses do, what the coronavirus does? Well, how it makes people sick, and why it's so much worse than anything else? There's quite a lot of science you have to illustrate there.

AS: Yeah, but you can't really, I mean, you can't make a book like that too medical because it's like for an age group from five to nine. So we can't go too much into details. And it's obviously very hard to understand, even for grown-ups just to see what this invisible virus does to people. So it's to say how dangerous it is and how easily it is transmitted. I think that's something that should come across.

CO: You're perhaps best known as an illustrator for “The Gruffalo”.

AS: Yes.

CO: Which so many children around the world have read that book. And last month, you redrew the illustrations from “The Gruffalo” to deal with social distancing. Can you tell us a bit about that?

AS: That was much more light-hearted? It wasn't really meant to be like factual information. But I thought if the children see the characters that they know from our books, the books I've done with Julia Donaldson, which are very popular in the UK, and all over the world, really, I thought it would help them if they see those characters outside their stories and relating to the corona crisis. And yeah, like doing social distancing. And again, the response was really good by people. It made them smile, and it was really a light-hearted thing to do to entertain people. The coronavirus because obviously much more serious.

CO: But also it's showing how much kids seem to need something that they can relate to to explain all this to them, I guess?

AS: I think so. And they are familiar with my drawings, and yeah, I hope it helps children to cope with a situation which is completely new and unique for all of us.

CO: Can you just describe, give a spoiler alert here, Just a final a couple of images and what they actually say?

AS: Well, there were lots of different situations like showing somebody being taken away by an ambulance, or the boredom scenes, or talking to grandparents on a computer screen. And at the end, like many picture books, there has to be like kind of a happy end. And we all hope that this will over be over one day. And at the end of the book, then everybody is united in saying, shouting, that we've done it, we got through this, to end with a positive note, so.

CO: And also to tell them that one day, this is a quote, one day, this strange time will be over.

AS: Yes, hopefully. We’re going to win, but hopefully soon.

CO: I think adults need that message as much as the kids.

AS: Yeah, we have to hope that it will be over because the damages is too big, otherwise. It’s very worrying. But we have to hope.

CO: Are there any hidden, Gruffalos in the coronavirus book?

AS: [chuckling] There is actually a little…. You're the first. It's a question, but you have spotted it, is there are two children with like a toy Gruffalo on the floor. So I did hide one.

CO: I knew you did. [both chuckling]

AS: Yeah.

CO: Axel, thank you.

AS: Okay, thank you very much.

CH: Axel Scheffler is an illustrator, most well known for "The Gruffalo." We reached him in London. And you can find more on this story — and lots of Mr. Scheffler’s illustrations — on our webpage at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Piano]

Part three: Victoria homeless, Antarctica frog

FOA: Belgium potatoes

CH: Belgium's biggest potato growers union says it's double or nothing. The industry has been hit hard by the pandemic. Restaurant closures have cut into Belgium's consumption of frites — the national staple that foreigners foolishly mistake for the lowly french fry. Fewer frites means more unsold potatoes. So the farmers' rep has challenged his countrymen to, quote, "eat frites twice a week, instead of just once." Unquote. Twice shouldn't be a challenge for Ben Weyts. When we reached him in 2017, Mr. Weyt was the Flemish tourism minister and he was defending the frite from an EU regulation that would have changed the way it could be fried. Carol began by asking why frites are so important.

BEN WEYTS: It's very nice to eat and we eat a lot of them. I eat them I think twice a week. And we have a special way of preparing them. What we do is we take them raw, and that means that we bake them twice. We fry them, first of all, at a lower temperature — about 150 degrees Celsius — when they are raw. Then, they are dunked twice in fat of increasing heat. For example, 160 or 170 degree Celsius.

CO: Right, the first time is to cook them and the second round in the hot fat is to make what if anyone has ever had frites in Belgium know are the crispest fries with the most creamy insides, right?

BW: Yeah. They should be soft on the inside, and crispy and golden on the outside with enough fat to make you sea salt stick.

CO: So what is the European Union proposing to do? Why do they want to change?

BW: Well, the European Union is talking about the fight against acrylamide. Acrylamide is a cancer causing elements that can exist whenever you fry potatoes at a large temperature.

CO: Is that not a concern to you?

BW: That is certainly a concern. But then, the European Commission suggested that we should just blanch the fries before frying them, but that takes away a lot of the taste. And the risk is only very, very small. And you can avoid Acrylamide by using a lower temperature to fry your fries the first time and the second time.

CO: Now, what have you done to raise your concerns with the European Union?

BW: So every European citizen can express their concerns about the about the proposal. And that's just what I did. I said really guys; watch it because this is a culinary tradition. We very much stick to that to that tradition. We adore our fries the way we make them. But just let us do so for the next 100 years because the last 100 years, there wasn't a problem. Why should there be a problem now?

CO: How passionate are people in your country about their frites and how they’re prepared?

BW: Well, the reactions because I sent a letter to the European Commission as well and the reactions of the Flemish people. I think they'll support me.

CO: So Belgium is 100 per cent behind you and your frite fight?

BW: It might not be 100 per cent, but I should think 90 per cent, yeah. And an opposition of about 10 per cent that says what it this all about? Well, this is about our culture and tradition and we want to keep it. And a spokesman of the European Commission, he expressed today that he understood the concerns. So I think they'll be very cautious.

CO: And you're making everybody hungry with your descriptions, Minister Weyts. And so everyone has to go and get some frites now.

BW: Yeah, OK. Enjoy them.

CO: Thank you very much. Bye bye.

BW: Goodbye. Thank you.

[/sc]

CH: From our archives, that was the Flemish minister Ben Weyts in 2017, working to protect Belgian frites from EU regulation.

[Music: Ambient]

Victoria homeless

Guest: Lisa Helps

CH: During this pandemic, hundreds of people have been living in homeless encampments in Victoria. B.C.'s Topaz Park, and along Pandora Avenue. But now, those encampments, as well as another one at Vancouver's Oppenheimer Park, are being dismantled. The British Columbia government announced this weekend that it had secured hotel and community centre accommodations for everyone living in the camps. The province says that will allow people to safely distance themselves from one another. Lisa Helps is the mayor of Victoria. That's where we reached her.

CO: Mayor Helps, just how large are these homeless encampments in Topaz Park and along Pandora Avenue?

LISA HELPS: Between the two sites, there are 360 people living outside.

CO: And is that an ongoing encampment, or is this something that has arrived since the crisis with COVID-19?

LH: Both of the sites have arrived as of COVID-19. When the shelters had to reduce their numbers because of social distancing concerns, people were put out onto the street. Pandora Ave was a logical place for them to go at first because that's the site where there’s a meal served, basically a community centre for people who are homeless. The chief medical health officer at Island Health very quickly said this is becoming far too crowded. And so then the city, working with BC Housing and the Coalition to End Homelessness, opened Topaz Park as a temporary and intentional tending option.

CO: But now the province plans on moving these people, hundreds of people, both in Victoria and in Vancouver to move them into hotel spaces. How are you going to do that?

LH: Well, it's going to have to be done very, very carefully and very thoughtfully and with the needs and interests of the people who are living in the encampments. BC Housing is leading the process, so the city is not leading that. We've been working with BC Housing and Island Health for the past many weeks pressing for this. Now, the challenge is exactly that, identifying people's needs, identifying what kinds of supports they need, and then getting them into appropriate indoor spaces.

CO: Is this something that they have no choice but to leave these encampments? I mean, are you shutting these down and offering these hotel rooms, or is the province offering these rooms, or are they told that they have no choices?

LH: Well, I think, as much as possible, we want to take a housing-first approach, which is that, you know, there is some choice in terms of the kind of site you go to and the kind of support that you need. But the province has issued an order under the Emergency Program Act so that the provincial government here is still in a state of emergency. And they've used their powers under the Emergency Program Act to basically order that these encampments be evacuated by May the 9th due to the unsafe, particularly unsafe health conditions in those spaces.

CO: But you know that some people will not want to go. They will feel that they don't want to be in a hotel complex. They don't feel safe, they don’t feel secure, there's mental health issues here. Are they going to be able to exercise a choice, or will they be able to stay in the camp, or not go to the hotels? Will they be able to go someplace else?

LH: Since the COVID pandemic hit in Victoria, we haven't been enforcing bylaws that require people to take down their tents at 7 a.m. So those two sites will no longer be available. But there are other places in the city where people are still tenting. The indications that we have so far. There was a census done last Friday. We had to get the numbers into the provincial government by 2:00 p.m. So each of those 360 people has been identified, has been asked what kinds of supports they need. And there will be, of course, a few people who don't want to go inside. But for the most part, people are saying, when can I get my motel room?

CO: What are the other supports you're offering? Because there are things beyond just having a having a roof over one's head, very important. But obviously, there's issues with food, you have an opioid crisis going at the same time, you have people who have multiple issues. How will they be supported?

LH: Many of the people who are moving indoors do indeed have multiple issues, are very high-needs, either with mental health and substance use issues or both. That's why Island Health, which is the health authority on the island, is working very hard with the provincial government to make sure that people have those supports that they need for successful housing. It's very traumatizing for people who are living on the streets to be moved inside and then evicted because they don't have the support they need. So I've spoken with Minister Simpson this morning. He's the provincial minister that's leading this. And he has assured me that there will be the supports provided, there is financial resources for those supports to be provided. So we can hope and I guess take the minister at his word that people will be supported as they move indoors, because for some people, it's a big transition.

CO: And it's not just these encampments where there are people who are homeless, who've lost those shelters that closed. There are people in other parts of Victoria, are they going to have access to these hotel rooms?

LH: Following the direction of the provincial health officer, as well as the Island Health chief medical health officer, the province has started with these two encampments because they're the places where people are camped really close together, where there aren't those physical distancing measures able to be put in place. So that's why the province is starting with those two sites. And we've been working with pressuring the province for the past five weeks to take this action. So once those immediate concerns are taken care of and people have the support they need to follow the health orders in terms of wash your hands, physical distancing and all those kinds of things, you can be sure, and I think the province is already turning their minds to, oaky, who's left outside still and how do we support them?

CO: And what about testing them for COVID-19?

LH: Absolutely. Again, we'll leave those things, the health protocols, to Island Health. But that's certainly a consideration. Obviously, anyone who's moving inside who symptomatic will be tested. Island health has identified separate beds not in motels for people who do test positive. Thankfully, we have not had a positive test in the unsheltered population, but I think we are running against the clock on this one. And that's why the welcome announcement from the province on Saturday, I think is hopefully keeping us ahead of that curve.

CO: As you as a province proceeds in this direction and also deals with this pandemic, does this strike you as a time when it's perhaps the moment to really think about your homeless people in Victoria and the crises that exist for them? Is it time to start thinking about a situation like this being more permanent?

LH: Absolutely. You know, what COVID has laid bare across the country is who are the most vulnerable people in this country, whether it's people who are homeless or people in long-term care homes that don't have the right kinds of supports. My hope, and the commitment from the province on Saturday, wasn't just that these folks will be moved inside, but that they will not be put back out onto the street. So I think this does present a tremendous opportunity, not only for homelessness but for some of those other folks who have been identified as vulnerable, that we build more resilient communities and more resilient to society.

CO: Mayor Helps, we'll leave it there. Thank you.

LH: Thank you very much. Take care. And we'll talk soon.

CO: You bet. Thanks.

CH: That was Lisa Helps, the mayor of Victoria, British Columbia.

[Music: Electronica]

New Zealand opens up

CH: New Zealand's Prime Minister says she is ready to start reopening the economy — but not people's social lives. Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern told reporters yesterday that the country had effectively eliminated COVID-19. For several days now, newly-confirmed cases of the virus have been in the single digits. Starting tomorrow, her government will start to reopen some non-essential businesses, schools and health care services. But she says New Zealanders will have to stay vigilant, in order to keep things this way. Here's part of what she said at a news conference.

[/sc]

CH: That was New Zealand's Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern, telling reporters today that the country has effectively eliminated the spread of COVID-19.

[Music: Industrial]

Antarctica frog

Guest: Thomas Mörs

CH: Over the years, Thomas Mörs has taken multiple trips to Antarctica to do research. Back in 2015, the Swedish paleontologist was looking through sediment he had collected there, on Seymour Island. That's when he found something he wasn't expecting. It was part of a small hip bone. In a paper published in the journal Scientific Reports last week, Mr. Mörs and his colleagues write that the approximately 40-million-year-old frog fossil is "the first modern amphibian found in Antarctica." We reached Thomas Mörs in Stockholm, Sweden.

CO: Thomas, can you take us to that moment when you were going through this sediment and you see a little hip bone. What did you think?

THOMAS MORS: [laughing] I said, wow, that's a frog! [laughing]

CO: Right away?

TM: Right away, yeah. These bones, these frog bones, are so unique. I work a lot with different kinds of smaller vertebrates. And so I'm quite familiar with different shapes, so I can see whether I have bones of a fish, or amphibian, frog, salamander, snake, mammal, whatever. So I saw directly that’s a frog. And I thought, knowing that there is no frog known from Antarctica, that was really, really exciting.

CO: And a 40-million-year-old frog.

TM: Yes. Well, being a palaeontologist, the age of 40 million years is not so stunning, I would say. I mean, there are frogs known which are double as old. But, well, that it comes from an Antarctica, that’s the important thing.

CO: Did you find any other parts of this little frog other than his hip bone?

TM: Yeah. Then a few days later, came then the skull roof bone. And yeah, I knew that should belong also to a frog, and probably to the same frog. There would be other options also for that bone. So I was not sure. But having already a hip bone of a frog, it was quite, quite probable that this bone would belong to the same. But unfortunately, those bones are rather fragmentary, and I hoped that I would get more complete material, nicer preserved. So yeah, we were waiting for more samples, looking through the samples. But in the next two years, we didn't find any new material. And then we decided, okay, we have to describe these fragmentary pieces then. [hearty laughs]

CO: Now, can you just tell us what 40 million years ago Antarctica, what we now call Antarctica, what was the world, what was the place like where this little fire would have been living?

TM: So talking about the world, the world was a warm world at that time. There were giant snakes in the tropics. They were actually in the Canadian Arctic, at small islands, there were crocs and primates roaming around during that time. So it was, in generally speaking, it was a greenhouse climate at that time 40 million years ago. But on an Antartica, glaciaciones had already started. We know that from records around the Antarctic continent, the first glaciers and highlands started to develop. And on the peninsula in West Antarctica, that there were alpine glaciers developing in the mountains, so high up in the mountains. So from a palaeontology view, being looking, for example, as the fauna that we know from that island, we know that it is a very diverse island. Now, we have from that island ten species of marsupial, small marsupials. From mouse size, to rat size, or possum size. And then only two or three large mammals.

CO: But just to go back to your little frog, do you know if this frog, is this an ancient relative of frogs on continents where frogs are thriving? Can you connect it to South America, or Australia, or any other continent that is not part of Antarctica anymore?

TM: Yeah, I mean, that was the surprising thing that our frog actually represents a genus that nowadays lives in Chile, in southern beech forest, rainforest, which is a temperate, rather cool, temperate rainforest in the Andes. And then there is a relict area where these frog still roam around. And they are called helmeted frogs, and there are not many species there nowadays, only five species. And on the other hand, these species are related to, or have their next relative not in South America with other frogs, but in frogs that live in Australia and New Guinea, which represent also part of an old supercontinent, Gondwana, to which both South America and Antarctica belonged.

CO: Mr. Mörs, it's a very interesting discovery, and it's great to hear stories [laughing] of another time as we go through what we’re going through. So thank you for telling it to us.

CH: It's still up for debate which drummer was the first to use the four-on-the-floor beat. But some facts everyone agrees on. The beat first became popular in the early '70s. It remains the foundation for dance music today. And Hamilton Bohannon is one of the originators who made the beat his own. The disco drummer and bandleader died on Friday. He was 78. Before he filled dancefloors with what he called the four-on-the-floor "Bohannon Sound", Mr. Bohannon was known for another sound: Motown. He got his big break playing drums for a kid by the name of Little Stevie Wonder. From there, he went on to form the group "The Motown Sound", which became the label's touring band for stars like Marvin Gaye, The Temptations, and Diana Ross and The Supremes. After a decade backing the biggest names in soul music, Hamilton Bohannon started releasing his own music in the '70s and '80s. Those polished Motown arrangements were replaced by rhythm-heavy guitar, catchy vocal hooks, and that signature beat. His solo work was never as his Motown hits. But his records still move a dance floor to this day — as the countless house and hip-hop producers who sampled Mr. Bohannon will tell you. As he put it, quote: "When the music changed like that, I didn't have to try and record something to keep up with it. Because … my music was already doing it." Unquote.

April 27, 2020 Episode Transcript

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