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The AIH Transcript for January 11, 2021

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

CO: In Peachy Keen. We reached one of the Democrats pushing to force Donald Trump out of office before his scheduled departure, who tells us the president must be held accountable for last week's violence.

CH: Pride comes before a fall. Members of the Proud Boys added to their record of violence, racism and misogyny by participating in the storming of the U.S. Capitol. And NDP leader Jagmeet Singh says it's time for Canada to officially deemed them a terror group.

CO: I just called you out to say I love you. An 18 year old tells us about the decision to post a video of her mother identifying her as one of the Trump supporters of the violent protests in Washington.

CH: The unorthodox docs. Remembering filmmaker Michael Apted, who took the long view and revisited the cast of his celebrated up documentaries every seven years for decades.

CO: Same difference. Researchers in Iceland say longstanding assumptions about identical twins are flawed and that small genetic variations between twins could have big implications for research.

CH: And steering committee. The pandemic drives lawmakers in New Hampshire to drive themselves to a university parking lot for a legislative session they spent voting from their cars like a big, unsexy Drive-In. As It Happens. The Monday Edition. Radio that assumes they did their best to keep things neutral.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Why this teenager publicly ID'd her family at D.C's pro-Trump protests

D.C. options lawmaker

Guest: Seth Moulton

CH: It's been less than a year since Donald Trump faced impeachment and was eventually acquitted. And now in his final days in office, the US president is facing the possibility of a historic second impeachment. Today, Democrats in Washington introduced a resolution for impeaching the president, which included the charge of incitement of insurrection. It comes as they're also pushing Vice President Mike Pence to invoke the 25th Amendment to remove Mr. Trump from office. Seth Moulton is a Democratic congressman from Massachusetts who was at the Capitol during Wednesday's attack. We reached him in Salem, Massachusetts.

CO: Congressman Moulton, here you are again, impeaching or discussing how to impeach President Donald Trump. How does that feel?

SETH MOULTON: It doesn't feel good. It's embarrassing for our country. It's embarrassing as an American patriot, someone who has fought for our values not just at home, but overseas as a United States Marine. This is not something that any of us should want to do in the United States Congress. I wish we didn't have to do it.

CO: So why are you doing it?

SM: Because it's necessary. Because it's the right thing to do. And it's a country that we represent, a country of laws and we have to uphold the law, even if it's the president of the United States.

CO: But we're talking about, what, days away before the end of his office. And so what's the point?

SM: It's never too late to uphold the law. If you had an executive, a CEO of a company who ran off with a million dollars on the last day that she was in charge, no one would say, 'oh, it's no big deal. Just let her go. Let her take the money. She's retiring anyway.' No, you hold her accountable.

CO: What would it accomplish then if you were successful?

SM: The most important thing it accomplishes is it says to every American, to everyone watching us across the globe, including future generations will look back on this moment in American history when our democracy was tested and see that we are committed to wholly upholding the law, that we will not let a president get away with this, that we will not let this happen again. That's the most important thing it does. Now, there are other implications as well. Impeaching the president can prevent him from running office again. It can limit the ability that he has post presidency to get involved in public affairs and federal offices and whatnot. This is a president who has made it clear that he's not going to just ride off into the sunset on January 20th and graciously hand over the reins of power to his successor. No, he very much intends to continue being dangerous to our country as an ex-president, just as he has done so in the Oval Office. And that's another reason why this is so important.

CO: But isn't this point, given the late hour and given the imperative of saying that he's not able to repeat what happened on Wednesday -- isn't the easiest thing for a vice president, Mike Pence and the cabinet to invoke the 25th Amendment?

SM: So absolutely, it's easier. It's faster. It's, again, the right thing to do. And you've heard numerous Republicans come out and say that's exactly what the vice president should do. But I mean, this is a vice president who's played Trump's game from the very beginning. And so even though the president is finally showing his true colours and quickly turning against the vice president to see how far loyalty lasts with Donald Trump, I still don't have the confidence that Vice President Pence is going to do the right thing.

CO: We spoke with a constitutional expert, someone who knows very well the 25th Amendment, and he felt, as you did, that it's unlikely that Mr. Pence will do that. But he said he believed that there's a kind of soft 25th, as he called it, that's in place, that various authorities in Washington have been systematically sort of prying the tools of office from Mr. Trump's fingers in order to prevent him from doing something like executing war or having his finger on the button of your nuclear arsenal. So do you think that that at least can limit his abilities?

SM: Yes. And I know that officials in the government, in the administration specifically have been working to do that, not just recently by the way, I was approached by senior members of the administration months ago this past summer about limiting his powers to wage war -- a very senior member of our military, I won't say exactly who sat down and spoke with me one on one hat for a half hour this past summer about limiting these powers. But there's a lot of question as to how successful these efforts will be. He's still the president of the United States, and that's why we have to do everything we can to limit his authority.

CO: Some are suggesting that congressional congressional censure is a better route. This is a new idea to many of us, but that might have a broader, more bipartisan support. Do you think that's a course of action?

SM: Well, understand that it's everybody's second choice, it's just that we feel that it might be more likely to pass. But I think it's important to do the right thing first. These are clearly impeachable offences. I mean, this is a man who has tried to essentially wage war against the United States. He's truly a traitor to our government, our own commander in chief. And so impeaching him is the right thing to do. My view is we try that first. If we can't get the votes, then we look at an alternative like censure as a second choice.

CO: People are dying every minute of COVID-19 and people are out of work, people are losing their homes, people are dying. And so isn't that what you should be focused on? Isn't that what Joe Biden needs to be focused on as he enters his term of office?

SM: In the depths of the civil war, we still did the right thing. In the depths of World War Two or World War One, or during all the turmoil in Vietnam, we still did whatever we could to uphold the law and do the right thing. We're a country of many talents. It's not like we can only do one thing at once. Both of these things are important and we need to do both of them today.

CO: What support do you think you have amongst your Republican colleagues for this?

SM: Well, I know there's a lot of support behind the scenes. When I was in this secure room with hundreds of other members of Congress after we had been evacuated and we were being protected by a concentrated group of police officers and whatnot, one of the first people who came up to me and said, this man, President Trump, needs to be relieved of command, was a Republican. In fact, it was even a Republican I know, who was voting against certification of the Electoral College. I'm embarrassed to admit that about my friend on the other side of the aisle. But he saw how dangerous the president was and is in that moment. And so the bottom line is that a lot of Republicans know what the right thing to do is here. The question is whether they'll have the courage to do it. Will a man like the friend I just described have the courage to say publicly what he said to me privately in that secure room?

CO: We will leave it there. Congressman Moulton, thank you.

SM: Thank you.

CH: That was Democratic Massachusetts Congressman Seth Moulton in Salem.

[Music]

ID'ing rioters

Guest: Helena Duke

CH: The pro Trump riots in Washington are over, but the evidence remains -- not just on Capitol Hill but in thousands of pictures and videos of the violent protests posted online. The FBI and local police have been combing through the footage to identify and arrest those who were seen smashing their way inside the Capitol building, attacking police and security guards, or otherwise breaking the law. Helena Duke posted a video of a violent interaction the night before the Capitol was attacked and called it one of the participants, her own mother. The video was taken last Tuesday night and shows Helena's mom appearing to grab at another woman before being punched in the face. Her mother was fired from her job after the video was released. We reached Helena Duke in Massachusetts.

CO: Helena how did you first find out that your mother had gone to Washington, D.C. last week?

HELENA DUKE: So I found out the day after the storming of the Capitol, my cousin had sent me the video. I had no idea that she was going. She actually told me the week before that she was taking my aunt to get a procedure done. And then I found out that she had been at the Capitol.

CO: And you recognise some other relations of yours in that video, is that right?

HD: Yup. I saw my aunt and my uncle in that video as well.

CO: How did you feel? How did you react when you saw your mom and your and your aunt and uncle in that crowd?

HD: Obviously, it was very unsettling to me. The storming of the Capitol in itself was very unsettling, I think, to the whole nation. Seeing them in the video and seeing what they had done was really disheartening. But I was also just in shock and there was just a really surreal moment for me. I just couldn't understand how someone could do such a horrible thing.

CO: Can you describe what the horrible thing is that you're referring to?

HD: So they did attend. It turned out to be kind of a violent rally the day prior to the storming of the Capitol. And in the video, you can see my mom harassing this woman.

CO: What did you see your mom do?

HD: I saw her attempt to grab this woman's phone. She ended up almost like coming in contact with her. I think the woman thought she was in danger, rightfully so, and reacted accordingly.

CO: We should point out the woman in the middle of that was Black?

HD: Yes, that was her.

CO: She's been charged, in fact, because she hit your mom. Your mom's face is pretty bloody in the course of that video. What did you think of that?

HD: Yes. So obviously, it was very graphic what had happened to her face. And obviously, she is my mother -- I was definitely in shock. But looking at the circumstances and seeing this woman's story of what allegedly happened that day, she had said that they were in a group of individuals that had been following her around and harassing her all day. It was a lot of harassment. And then the final attempt to grab her personal belongings, she definitely felt in danger and reacted accordingly, I feel as in self-defence, for she felt that she was in danger.

CO: She has identified herself online as just by the name Ashanti. She says that she -- this is a quote -- "People shoved me, tried to take my phone and keys. They yelled racial epithets at me and tried to remove my mask. I asked them to distance themselves. They refused. And I was afraid of being hurt and harmed." And so she said, I defended myself.

HD: Yeah.

CO: So you wrote in your tweet, you wrote, 'Hi, Mom. Remember the time you told me I shouldn't go to Black Lives Matter protests because they could get violent?' Is this you?

HD: Yeah.

CO: How did you decide to send that out? She is your mother.

HD: Yeah, definitely. So it was really emotional for me seeing all of this and then thinking back to earlier on this year after the death of George Floyd, when I had told her I would be going to Black Lives Matter protests, and she told me that I wasn't allowed to go because she believed that Black Lives Matter was a violent organisation and they were going to incite violence. I ended up going anyway. When she found out that I did so, she told me that I was unwelcome in the house if I were to do these things. And seeing her at a very not peaceful event, it was just very hypocritical of her to tell me that I wasn't allowed to go to the Black Lives Matter protests.

CO: Just finally, if you can tell us, has your mom always been involved with the right-wing, because we've heard testimony from lots of people who say that they don't know someone in their family anymore, that they have become really deeply involved in conspiracy theories and the claims that Donald Trump was making, that they've changed a lot. Was your mom like that as well?

HD: Yeah, definitely. She actually has been a Democrat her whole life up until the Trump presidency. And it was very unsettling seeing how quickly she had changed to a radically right ideology, especially coming from me as I identify as liberal. Just seeing how quickly she had turned and the things that she was saying really didn't make sense, a lot of them were conspiracy theories. And I think it was just her belief system entirely was focussed around what President Trump was saying.

CO: Have you spoken with your mom since you posted this?

HD: The last time I spoke to her was the night after I posted it around 1:00 a.m. to 2 a.m. She had texted me that I was throwing my life down the drain and that I was ruining my life. And I think it was also just not okay and incredibly inappropriate to put the blame on me when she is the one that decided to do this. And I feel as though she should be held accountable for her actions.

CO: Do you think it's possible to patch this up in any way?

HD: Possibly. I feel as though if she can at least acknowledge that what she did was wrong in this video, instead of trying to put the blame on me and playing the victim in this situation when she -- I just feel as though she should be held accountable for her actions. And I think if those things were to be done, there could be some patching up.

CO: Now, has the rest of your family responded to you?

HD: The majority of them have reacted very well to me, overwhelmingly supportive of me and protective all of my cousins have definitely been supportive and have defended me intensely. All of my dad's side of the family has been very supportive of it all. I think the only people that aren't are my aunts and uncles.

CO: The ones in the video?

HD: Yes, and one of my cousins. But the rest of them are very much on my side in this matter.

CO: Helena it is quite a difficult story, but I appreciate that you would tell it to us. Thank you.

HD: Yeah, definitely. .

CH: Helena Duke posted a video of her mom taking part in the violent pro Trump protests in Washington last week. We reached her in Massachusetts. And for more on this story, go to our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Knight Rider

Guest: Claire Lewis

CH: Michael Apted directed movies of all kinds: James Bond films, a Narnia movie, Oscar contenders like Coal Miner's Daughter and Gorillas in the Mist. Mr. Apted died last week. He was 79. And over his long and varied career, there were certain subjects he returned to over and over -- every seven years, to be exact.

VOICE: This is no ordinary outing to the London Zoo. It's a very special occasion. We brought these 20 children together for the first time. They're like any others, except that they are children from startlingly different backgrounds. Why do we bring these children together? Because we want to catch a glimpse of England in the year 2000. The union leader and the business executive of the year 2000 are now seven years old. Give me a child until he is seven and I will give you the man.

CH: That clip is taken from Seven Up! the first instalment of the groundbreaking Up series. It began in 1964 and it was a sensation. It became one of the most astonishing achievements in cinematic history as he checked in with the same group of British people every seven years of their varied lives. Michael Apted was a researcher on that very first program, and from seven plus seven onwards, he was at the helm right up until the most recent instalment, 63 Up, which premiered in 2019. Ever since 28 Up in 1984, Claire Lewis was by his side as the series producer. We reached Ms. Lewis just outside Winchester, England.

CO: Claire, first of all, I'm sorry for the loss of your friend.

CLAIRE LEWIS: Yes. Yes. We worked together for 38 years, so it's a massive chunk of my working life. I worked out that I probably spent 10 years of my life working alongside him, doing six films. So it is quite ridiculous.

CO: And you go back to 1984 when you began later in the series that Michael Apted was making on Seven Up, you are up at 28 Up when you joined him. What do you remember best about working with him on those documentaries?

CL: I remember I met him the first time I was a bit scared about meeting a big shot Hollywood director, as you can imagine. Although I was quite experienced as a reporter and a news editor and I had done a lot of stuff, but I was expecting somebody very grand. And in fact, he wasn't grand at all. He was delightful. And one of the amazing things about him is that he treated everybody exactly the same. And I also realised very quickly how much he trusted me, and let me get on with doing the work.

CO: You mentioned just now that he wasn't grand, but he did spend a lot of time in Hollywood. Just and in the year 2000, my predecessor, Mary Lou Finlay, asked him about that in an interview that we had on As It Happens. And I'd like to just play a short clip for you.

MARY LOU FINLAY: Your instincts have led you to produce some really uniquely interesting documentaries like the Seven Up series, 28 Up as probably my favourite documentary of all time.

MICHAEL APTED: Oh, thank you.

MARY LOU FINLAY: But you also make James Bond movies, and Coal Miner's Daughter, and big expensive Hollywood style films. Do you prefer one or the other or do you like the change?

MICHAEL APTED: I love the change. I mean, I wouldn't want to have to choose between one or the other. If I did, I suppose I won't keep making the movies. But I feel that in my heart that I'm, you know, a documentarian and that's my true calling, in a way. And when I do movies, I make them, you know, with a documentary spirit. But I like the challenge of both. I like the fact that, you know, I did say 42 Up or Me and Isaac Newton back to back with Bond -- I did with a crew of seven or eight and Bond with a crew of over a thousand. That's a completely different work process, a completely different challenge. And I find that stimulating and I find that one helps the other. The documentaries keep me honest, keep me with a view of the world. And, you know, the movies are very challenging. And I think also they help me put together the documentaries. The notion of a kind of narrative structure I think can be very helpful in making a documentary. So it's not that one is some great spiritual calling and one is just the kind of, you know, something to pay the rent, something to earn money or whatever. I find I get something out of both of them. So for me, there's a challenge in everything you do.

CO: That was Michael Apted. What goes through your mind when you hear your friend's voice?

CL: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Honest to God, that's exactly what I would have said about him. He was through and through a documentarian. He approached the narrative with truth and he liked authentic stories. He liked stories with meaning. He liked stories with purpose. And in a way, even in his big Hollywood films, he always tried to make them serious and get at the truth. And there was nothing trivial about Michael at all in any shape or form. And that's a perfect interview. It's a beautiful clip. It's absolutely wonderful. Just reminds me of the old Michael, actually.

CO: But it does speak to his extraordinary range because, of course, many people know him best about Up series. But he did a comedy, John Belushi comedy, with Continental Divide. He did Gorky Park. Gorillas in the Mist. The Dian Fossey film. And James Bond, The World Is Not Enough. I mean, the man's range was extraordinary, wasn't it?

CL: Yeah, it was. But also, I think his finest feature film was his first. I think Coal Miner's Daughter was absolutely outstanding.

CO: About Loretta Lynch.

CL: Yes. He discovered Sissy Spacek in that film. But also it had a truth and authenticity. It was very much like a documentary and it was very honest. But his Bond was superb as well. He could deliver either.

CO: Is there any particular memory of Michael that's top of your mind today?

CL: Yes, I think probably -- I knew about Seven Up because I trained as a primary school teacher when I was in my early 20s and I worked in schools with children. I did a psychology degree. And I've always been interested in children's development and psychology and parenting. I've got my own children and so did Michael. So I loved Seven Up. And when I discovered that Granada Television made it, I asked if I could work on it if it came up and thank goodness it did. And this wonderful project landed in my lap for 28 Up. So off I went. I did all the research, found everybody, talked to everybody. And finally Neil, the lovely Neil was missing, took me four months to find him.

CO: This is Neil Hughes.

CL: Yes. And I found him in a caravan in the middle of Wales homeless and then he disappeared again. And then I found him again. And finally, we did this phenomenal interview with Neil in Scotland on the side of the lot -- on a beautiful, beautiful sunny day, blue sky in Scotland. And it was probably the most moving interview of my television career. He was so honest and so candid. And he was the little boy who started off as the most magical, imaginative, beautiful seven year old, absolutely broken. And Michael and I did this interview together. At the end, we both had tears in our eyes and we turned to each other and he said, it's every parent's nightmare, isn't it? And I said, yes, absolutely is. I mean, how do people go from being a beautiful child to a broken person? And it wasn't about television. It was about what happens in real life.

CO: Everyone who's seen that this whole series will agree with you that that scene with that man in the caravan park was the most powerful, and I'm glad you raised it. Will there be a 70 Up?

CL: Well, everybody's asking me. I mean, Michael and I always -- we had a definite policy when people asked us. We always say, well, look, the rule is if enough of our people want to make one, then we'll go on making them. But it is really down to how they feel, whether enough of them want to do it. I mean, we're all pushing on now, honestly, we're the oldest geriatric film crew in the planet. [Laughter] I mean, quite frankly, you know, we're only pushing around in wheelchairs in six years time. So who knows is the answer to that? I mean, anything could happen to any of us. But if we are around and if enough of them want to do it and want to do 70 Up, then let's see. It would be lovely. But let's see.

CO: Cliare thank you so much for speaking with us.

CL: That's all right, thank you very much indeed.

CH: Claire Lewis is the producer of the six most recent instalments of Michael Apted's celebrated Up film series. We reached Ms. Lewis outside Winchester, England. Michael Apted died last week. He was 79 years old.

[Music]

Part 2: Proud Boys: Jagmeet Singh

Proud Boys: Jagmeet Singh

Guest: Jagmeet Singh

CH: The leader of the NDP says it's time for the Proud Boys to take a place in one of Canada's most despicable clubs. Last week, members of the right-wing group broadcast themselves planning and participating in the assault on the U.S. Capitol in Washington. The Proud Boys originated in the United States, but the group's founder is Canadian, and Canada's military police included them in a report entitled White Supremacy: Hate Groups and Racism in the Canadian Armed Forces. Jagmeet Singh is the leader of the New Democratic Party of Canada. We reached him in Brampton, Ontario.

CO: Mr. Singh what are you hoping to accomplish by adding the Proud Boys to Canada's terror list?

JAGMEET SINGH: I think this would in a significant way ban this organisation from operating in Canada, given their involvement in the violence, in the undermining of democracy and the incitement of those horrible images that we saw out of Washington, D.C., I think it is very clear this is a group that should not be able to operate in Canada.

CO: Do you have any evidence that Canadians or Canadian parts of Proud Boys took part in the events of Wednesday?

JS: Not specifically, there is some indication of Canadian flags present at the site of the violence and the undermining of democracy. But it's not clear if they were actually Canadians present or not. But it does give us clear evidence of the intentions of this type of organisation. It's clear that their rhetoric is hateful and divisive, and they have been participating in acts of violence, purposely disrupting democracy. And we know that they're not alone. There's over 300 extreme right-wing groups operating in Canada, and we don't think that banning Proud Boys is enough on its own. It's one clear step given the recent events, but we need to go beyond that as well.

CO: But I mean, the rhetoric: they are Islamophobic, they are misogynist, they are anti-immigration, against anyone else but White Europeans, they feel they're under siege. All of it is odious, the things that they represent, things they've said. But what is the threshold to actually be designated as a terrorist organisation?

JS: Well, based on the security report that we received recently, the real threats the Canadian security are coming from extreme right-wing groups, and groups that are going beyond just talking about divisive politics, but then promoting hate and violence. And with the events of Washington, D.C., it's clear that Proud Boys played an active role and something that I don't think is getting enough coverage what they tried to do was really fundamentally undermine a democratic election with no evidence. And to engage in hateful rhetoric and then back it up with the type of violence we saw comes to the point where it is pretty clear this is a group that clearly poses a security threat.

CO: The co-founder of Proud Boys was Gavin McInnes, a Canadian. But is there evidence that they have actually committed crimes of violence in Canada?

JS: There is not clear evidence to the extent that we've seen in the States. But similar to how designations have applied to organisations that have committed violence around the world, and then they're deemed to be a threat or a concern in Canada. Given the proximity, we have neighbours to the south, clear evidence of not just divisive rhetoric, but violence and violent acts being perpetrated. It comes to the point where it is very clear that this group, as you mentioned, founded one of the co-founders in Canada, exists and operates in Canada, poses a real risk to Canadians. And given what we've seen, given the fact that there's not been a clear denunciation of those activities by any private organisation, they proudly honour the fact that they were involved in this. And that's just more testimony to how important it is for this group to be banned and that they pose a real risk here in Canada. We know that there's been similar rhetoric around people that are expressing their disagreement with a politician and moving to violence. The recent attack at parliament where we saw gunmen with multiple guns rammed through the gates of Rideau Hall and pose a threat to not only the prime minister but also the governor general. We know that there are these types of extreme right-wing ideas that are inflaming tensions and putting real risks in place for Canadians.

CO: But by outlawing them, banning them, declaring them a terrorist organisation, does that not just push them underground? Is it really the best route to actually declare Proud Boys as this problem and not to try and ferret out the actual elements of it?

JS: What we saw with the election of Donald Trump and I think with his presidency is that he emboldened a lot of hate and then in doing so, put more people at risk. What the Proud Boys' continued existence and operation does, it emboldens hate and emboldens violence. And so by banning this group, it really would have a chilling effect on this group. And we hope to expand that to other groups that are posing this threat. But by banning them, it also means that there's more resources that are focused on actually preventing their expansion -- if they do continue to operate underground. So we've got to take that approach. And there's also real legitimate concerns around people that are faced with economic injustice, can't find a good job or can't find a home to live in, and how they become vulnerable to being manipulated by people that tell them it's the fault of a new Canadian or someone from this religious background. And we also have to acknowledge that economic inequality or something. So we have to address not just because it's the right thing to do, but it also keeps us all safer.

CO: Given that this is a White nationalist organisation, that they are against immigration, they would like to see Canada restored as a White European nation. Is this personal for you at some level?

JS: I think about the nature of hatred, and hatred in my experience is not something that can be neatly contained in a boundary -- it's more like a flame, a fire, and it's very easy to spread. The Proud Boys aren't just limited to anti-immigration or anti-Muslim, they're also anti-women -- they are misogynistic. And we've seen the impact of misogyny in Canada. We continue to reel at the loss of the incredible bright young women at Ecole Polytechnique, and in the killing that happened in Toronto with a van by someone, again, fuelled by misogynistic beliefs, attacked and killed people. So hate is one of those things that does not have any boundaries, it spreads. Once it's okay to hate someone based on the colour of their skin or their ethnic origin or their language, it can spread to gender and sexuality and it makes everyone more at risk. So I really see this common link that if we see any form of hate, there is a personal risk at stake. We all have to use our position to tackle it so that we can protect all of us.

CO: We'll leave it there. Mr. Singh, thank you.

JS: Thank you.

CH: Jagmeet Singh is the leader of the federal NDP. He spoke to us from Brampton, Ontario.

[Music]

Iris Gorfinkel

CH: Sore arm, maybe a fever, possibly a headache -- some of the minor side effects that people may experience after getting the Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna COVID-19 vaccines. The largest vaccination program in Canada is happening right now and millions are still waiting to get their shots, which means there are still a lot of people wondering how worried they should be about possible side effects. Dr. Iris Gorfinkel wants you to look at the facts. She's a family doctor in Toronto and a CBC Radio health columnist. She told CBC Sudbury her advice for those who are concerned.

IRIS GORFINKEL: Many of the vaccine hesitant or concerned about how the risks of being vaccinated compared to their personal risk of COVID-19. So let's look to Health Canada on this. So four percent of Canadians so far have now tested positive to COVID-19. Once a person has been diagnosed, they stand one in 13 chance on average of being hospitalised and one in 40 die of the disease. An estimated one in 10 go on to develop long haul symptoms such as incapacitating fatigue and insomnia. Now compare those to the risk of the vaccines. There have been no serious adverse events identified in the clinical trial data that was approved by Health Canada for either Pfizer or Moderna's vaccine. And the side effects which have been identified, were mild and disappeared within days.

JONATHAN PINTO: Despite this data, you know, there are still people, especially people with allergies who may have concerns about getting this vaccine. What would you say to them?

IRIS GORFINKEL: Keep your ear to the ground, because Pfizer and MOderna are, of course, continuing to monitor the safety of the vaccines for another couple of years. But I think when it comes to allergies, we have to look at very very large data sets because it is unusual to have an allergy to these. You know, so Health Canada is continuing to do its reviews, but the World Health Organisation is overseeing the safety data on the vaccines from nearly 30 countries and what will become probably the world's best resource on vaccine safety. The largest dataset we have so far comes out of overall, they've now given close to two million doses and their advanced digitised health records have yet to identify new serious side effects from the vaccines. In fact, they're showing much lower rates with side effects. At this point, the COVID-19 immunisation programs are going to become the world's largest ever and most carefully monitored mass inoculation programs of all time.

CH: That was Dr. Iris Gorfinkle speaking with Jonathan Pinto, host of CBC Radio's Up North.

[Music]

Twins not identical

Guest: Kari Stefansson

CH: For decades, researchers have relied on identical twins to tease out the impact of nature versus nurture on everything from health outcomes to personality and intelligence. If two identical twins turn out dramatically different in some way, it must have to do with environment, parenting, circumstance. But a new study out of Iceland suggests identical twins may not be as alike as that tradition implies. And it points to some key genetic differences between them. Dr. Kari Stefansson is a geneticist at the University of Iceland and the study's co-author. We reached him in Reykjavik.

CO: Dr. Stefansson, just how different are identical twins?

KARI STEFANSSON: They are very similar to each other, but they are not identical. They are separated by, on average, five mutation, early developmental mutations, mutations that happened when they were very very early foetuses.

CO: Okay, just so we understand, when you say mutations -- that's a frightening word -- so what kind of mutations are we talking about here?

KS: Each one of us is on average born with 70 new mutations, mutations that are not found in our parents, but are found in us. And these mutations, most of them are not harmful, but some of them are. Me and others have been sequencing the whole genomes of people for diagnostic purposes, and it does become clear over the past few years, that a very large percentage of devastating diseases of early childhood are caused by these mutations. But there's another side to it. That evolution happens to random change and then selection. And these mutations, these new mutations, are the reason that we as a species can continue to evolve. We can continue to adjust to a changing environment. So these new mutations have still another example of something that can be very damaging to the individual but is necessary for the survival of the species.

CO: One really interesting part of your revelations is that there are a number of assumptions many studies over the years of identical twins who were separated at birth went to different environments, and so the studies have shown or people believed it showed that the nurture versus nature, that some things are genetically determined, but large numbers of things like diseases or conditions are because of different living conditions. But what you're saying is that quite possibly those differences could have been baked in before they were born.

KS: Yes. You see, identical twins have been used as instruments to help us to separate genetic influences from environmental influences. So if you take identical twins apart and one of them develops autism for example -- our assumption has been that autism in that case is caused by environmental influences. But indeed, our results show that before you draw that conclusion, you have to sequence that genome of the twins and look and see whether there is a mutation in one of them that is not in the other that may explain the autism. So, yes, indeed, identical twins will continue to be useful in the attempt to separate nature versus nurture. But you have to interpret the results much more carefully than people who have done so far.

CO: So these studies, many of them are not that old. So why are we just now learning this important information about the genetic differences between identical twins?

KS: Most of these studies were done before it was feasible to sequence the whole genomes of sufficiently large number of individuals to be able to do that as a control -- a study like that. So we scientists have really not been in a position to do a study like this until just about within 10 years.

CO: So some of that work, some of that research with identical twins is now no longer valid or important. But you're saying that making those comparisons of twins separated at birth, is that still useful science?

KS: Oh, yes, it is still useful science. But it's not the only thing you can use. We are much better today than we had 15-20 years ago to interpret the data that comes after comparing twins separated at birth. When you sit down with identical twins, and I had the opportunity to do so, it is amazing the kind of connection that is between them. And it is very interesting to talk to them and listen to them describe the kind of relationship they have. So even though they are not identical, they are extremely similar.

CO: It's not just because they were in the womb together, because non-identical twins will say that they have that special connection. Is it further? Is there more connection because they come from the same embryo?

KS: It is because they share most of the genomes. Non-identical twins -- they are no more genetically related to each other than just usual siblings. So this is much much closer. And it shows in the brain in which they relate to each other, because you have to remember that the brain is simply an organ like the heart and the kidneys -- it is made from information in the genome and the function of the brain, which is to generate thoughts and emotions, is in many ways innate to us because of the way in which our brains are hardwired.

CO: It must be fascinating to study them.

KS: It is fascinating to serve the human diversity in general. You see, when you take identical twins, you are at a very extreme, one extreme, or human diversity to your end where there is very little diversity. In the same way, I said, it's very interesting to compare the genome to Icelanders and Africans because there you are at the other extreme. So it is a privilege to have it as a day job to study human diversity and try to explain that. I'm the luckiest man on earth. [Chuckles]

CO: And it's a privilege to speak to you again Dr. Stefansson. Thank you.

KS: Thank you.

CH: Dr. Kari Stefansson is a neurologist and geneticist at the University of Iceland and at Decode Genetics. We reached him in Reykjavik.

[Music]

Drive-In Government Session

CH: And now: quote, unquote. There's still nothing quite like the drive-in: your park, get a snack and tune into the radio station that's broadcasting the dialogue on the screen, then you settle in for the coming attractions, always remembering the words of Paul Smith, "If you're having trouble voting, please turn on your hazard lights." Mr. Smith is the clerk of the New Hampshire House of Representatives. And the reason he said those words at the drive-in last week in Durham, New Hampshire, was that the drive-in was the New Hampshire House of Representatives. Last Wednesday, members of the state house gathered in their vehicles in a parking lot at the University of New Hampshire for a COVID session. Like the drive-in, there was a big screen at the front and you could listen to the audio by tuning in on your car radio. Unlike the drive-in, they had to vote on things using wireless devices that were prone to malfunctioning. Another key difference was that at a normal drive-in, people make out. But at this one, they didn't make out so great. As Democratic Minority Leader Renny Cushing told the Associated Press, "It's about what one would expect if you decided to hold a legislative session in a parking lot in January adjacent to a railroad track with 400 reps driving around in their cars, figuring out how to listen remotely, find the right radio station and push buttons so their vote is counted."

[Music]

Arnold Schwarzenegger

CH: Hasta la vista, baby. Former California governor and intermittent terminator Arnold Schwarzenegger had a few choice words for U.S. President Donald Trump after last week's riots on Capitol Hill. He uploaded them onto YouTube this weekend in full Governator style. With the stars and Stripes behind him and suspenseful music to set the mood, Mr. Schwarzenegger condemned the insurrection. As a member of the Republican Party, he called the president a failure and he compared the violence he saw last week at the Capitol to growing up in Austria and the familiar sense of denial he witnessed about its role in the Second World War.

ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER: As an immigrant to this country, I would like to say a few words to my fellow Americans, to our friends around the world about the events of recent days. I grew up in Austria and very aware of Kristallnacht or the Night of Broken Glass. It was a night of rampage against the Jews carried out in 1938 -- the Nazi equivalent of the Proud Boys. Wednesday was the day of broken glass right here in the United States. The broken glass was in the windows of the United States Capitol. But the mob did not just shatter the windows of the capital that shattered the ideals we took for granted. They did not just break down the doors of the building that housed American democracy. They trampled the very principles on which our country was founded. President Trump sought to overturn the results of an election, and a failed election, he sought the coup by misleading people with lies. President Trump is a failed leader, he will go down in history as the worst president ever. The good thing is that he soon will be as irrelevant as an old tweet. As heartbreaking as all of this is, America will come back from this dark days and shine our lights once again. Now you see this sword, this is the Conan sort. Here's the thing about swords, the more you temper a sword, the stronger it becomes -- the more you pound it with a hammer and then heat it in the fire and then thrust it into the cold water and then pound it again and plunge it into the fire and into the water -- the more often you do that, the stronger it becomes. I'm not telling you all this because I want you to become an expert sword maker. But our democracy, it's like this steel of this sword. The more it is tempered, the stronger it becomes. Our democracy has been tempered at wars, injustices and insurrections. I believe, as shaken as we are by the events of recent days, we will come out stronger because we now understand what can be lost. We need reforms, of course, so that this never ever happens again. We need to hold accountable the people that brought us to this unforgivable point. And we need to look past ourselves, our partisan disagreements, and put our democracy first.

CH: That was the former governor of California, Arnold Schwarzenegger, ending a critique of President Donald Trump with a Hollywood flourish of Conan the Barbarian sword.

[Music]

Part 3: How TikTok users designed a better pill bottle for people with Parkinson's

LA District Attorney reforms

Guest: George Gascon

CH: This past spring and summer, the momentum for radical justice reform, especially in the United States, seemed unstoppable. And since then, it seemed by and large to have stalled except in California. Just over a month ago, Los Angeles County swore in a new district attorney. In his speech that day, he announced sweeping changes that include eliminating cash bail, leniency for low level offenders and much much more. Changes that were swiftly hailed by supporters and decried by critics. We reached District Attorney George Gascon in Los Angeles.

CO: District Attorney, you made several immediate changes right out of the gate -- we mentioned just a few in our introduction. What did you feel you most had to get done right away?

GEORGE GASCON: Well, look, I mean, so much of the work that we do impacts people's lives, right? Not only obviously victim, but it impacts community, it impacts accused, and also our entire criminal justice system, given that especially under COVID we are in such a crisis. So there was really a lot of things that I felt that were very important to the right of the gate. For instance, we know now that sending low level offenders into custody at the moment is often led to people dying or people contracting COVID and then coming back out and then passing that on to other members of the community.

CO: I want to ask you on some other areas where you plan to move on very quickly, you want to stop the trials of juveniles as adults. What has been created by prosecuting juveniles as adults?

GG: There is proven science policies that our brains are not fully developed until we're 25 -- or someone in their mid 20s. And as we all know, younger people have a tendency to be risk takers. And, of course, the level of risk and contextually the kind of risk you're going to take is always driven, obviously, by your environment. So if you're a surfer, you're going to take risk perhaps in the way you surf. If you are in the inner city where you have a lot of crime, the risk taking may reflect itself in engaging in criminal activity. But what we know is that when we over criminalise this population, especially if we mix juveniles with adults, not only do we impact the capacity to be rehabilitated, but we generally what we do is we create a lifetime of criminality for the person that then impacts our entire community, obviously the individual, but their family. We create a great deal with victimisation to others. And we also impact, you know, there's a huge fiscal impact to the work. So it's beginning to use science in the way that we intervene as prosecutors so that we're doing something, so we're not creating more harm.

CO: And in other areas, I know it's been very controversial, not just in your county, but in California, in the United States in general -- your prosecutors have been instructed not to seek the death penalty in any cases. What do you think that will accomplish at this point?

GG: Well, it will accomplish many things. Number one, I think that if you look at my own office, just in the last seven years, we sent 23 people to death row, 22 of those were people of colour, mostly African-Americans. So in the application of the law, we know that there are constitutional infirmities because this will disproportionately impact on one group. Then when you get into the fact that we increasingly know that we have cases where people are wrongfully convicted, and if you execute someone, there is no way to correct that mistake, right. We have not figured out how to bring people back to life after extended period of being dead. And then you look at the costs of the death penalty in our legal system, the cost of prosecuting the death penalty case sometimes is tenfold than what it costs to prosecute a case perhaps with a sentence that will be life in prison.

CO: You're reflecting the discussion we've been hearing in the United States for some time, even amongst conservative lawmakers, that the tough-on-crime approach has failed and that it hasn't succeeded in reducing crime. But on the other hand, you have a number of people who feel that what you're doing is too fast, it is too radical, you're not considering the victims of crime, essentially. And so do you think it's possible that you need to bring those people, your critics along who see you as maybe you're a bit ahead of your troops at this point?

GG: Not only am I the person that has been put in there by the voters to deal with victims of today and make sure that we treat their trauma and we provide the right level of intervention. But we also have to consider the victims of tomorrow. And every time that somebody's real friend that is an additional victim, so sometimes there is exponential growth of victimisation by sometimes providing the wrong level of intervention. The other thing that we know, the majority of the victims that have been, you know, have been surveyed over and over again, they indicate that their concerns, retribution really falls in the fourth or fifth level. You know, it is usually the first thing is they want the pain to stop. Number two, they want to make sure that other people are not subjected to what happened to them. Three, they want to see rehabilitation. And retribution really comes five or six more in most of the studies that have been done.

CO: But I just wonder, I mean, because what's your aim toward and you're not alone in this number of reformers in the U.S. are doing the same things to try to lower the extraordinary incarceration rate that you have in the United States. But at the same time, there is a surge of violent crime in Los Angeles, is there not? The city has more than 300 homicides for the first time in over a decade. This year, shootings are up by more than 30 percent over 2019. What are you doing to reassure people that your reforms are not going to increase the crime around them?

GG: One of the things that we're focussed on very aggressively is in dealing with violent crime, because the tough-on-crime that we have used up until November certainly hasn't worked. You know, those increases occurred during the tough-on-crime. As a matter of fact, even if you take 2020 out of the picture and again, I like to take 2020 out just simply because it's such an unusual year because of COVID. But you go through the last seven years prior to that, violent crime in L.A. County went up by 30 percent. And we were locking people up at, you know, four times the level of San Francisco where San Francisco had a reduction in crime. So the point is precisely, would you want to do the same thing over and over again that hasn't resulted in good things and expect that somehow is going to result in a different outcome, right? It's like the definition of insanity, right. It's the same thing over and over again and somehow expect a different outcome.

CO: But we will be watching how things develop as you make your changes. District Attorney Gascon, thank you for speaking with us.

GG: My pleasure, Carol. You take care of yourself.

CH: George Gascon is the new district attorney for Los Angeles County. We reached him in L.A..

[Music]

Nadia Alam

CH: The pressure that COVID cases is putting on some large hospitals in the Greater Toronto Area is forcing overcrowding. And soon that could spill over into smaller hospitals in places outside Toronto, hospitals in Brampton and Georgetown, for instance, maybe caring for some of those patients. Dr. Nadia Alam is a family physician and anaesthesiologist at Halton Health Care Services in Georgetown, about an hour northwest of Toronto. She told CBC News the idea that her hospital may be receiving an overflow of patients is almost unbearable.

NADIA ALAM: I'm tired of hearing it because I know how intense the workload is going to be on our hospital system and our hospitals who take care of and our internal medicine physicians who take care of our most complex patients. And just for your listeners, Georgetown is next door to Brampton is kitty corner from Mississauga. So we're surrounded by some beautiful, well resourced, very multicultural, very vibrant cities. But at the end of the day, Georgetown Hospital is a small hospital. It is part of helping health care services, which has bigger hospitals in Milton and Oakville. But in and of itself, we're a small community hospital. We don't have access to the subspecialists like an ICU specialist or cardiology specialist within our hospital. We can access them outside of our hospital, but we won't have them in.

ISMAILA ALFA: How full is your hospital right now?

NADIA ALAM: We're beyond full. We started off the 32 bed hospital for acutely ill medical patients and we are now up to 70. So we've had to find room in various places to safely deliver care to our larger cohort of patients. Now, we've had to have more nurses coming in. People are working double shifts. We've had more physicians coming in. And it's exhausting -- you look at your shift, you work on your shift, you finish your shift and I can't even think beyond that.

ISMAILA ALFA: Something I find interesting here is this is smaller hospitals -- sorry, smaller hospitals are used to sending patients to Toronto, but in this case, it's the other way around. What does that tell you about how dire the situation could get?

NADIA ALAM: I have never seen this before and I've been working in Ontario's health care system for about 13-14 years. I have never seen it go this way, where our hospitals, our neighbouring hospitals, which are larger or well resourced, usually they are so full to the rafters that they have to lean on us to help take overflow patients.

CH: That was Dr. Nadia Alam speaking with Ismaila Alfa, host of CBC's Metro Morning.

Isobel Mackenzie

CH: COVID-19 continues to be a problem in long term care homes across the country, putting seniors and their care providers at risk. But officials are also worried that lockdown restrictions are depriving residents of contact with loved ones, affecting their quality of life and mental health. British Columbia's seniors advocate Isobel Mackenzie says it's time to step up testing in long term care homes.

ISOBEL MACKENZIE: For the most part, our testing strategy has been based on monitoring people for symptoms, and when they show symptoms, then they are tested. And I think what we're seeing in our long term care setting particularly, is we maybe have reached the point where we really have to look at regular testing, whether it's the rapid test or the PCR test -- so, you know, the PCR test, which is, for example, what they've been using in the film industry and the hockey teams, testing every care worker twice a week could possibly be picking up some of these asymptomatic carriers and isolating them before they have an opportunity to unwittingly further spread the virus within a care home. And then there is, of course, this role that rapid testing could play. It is not as precise as the PCR test, it compensates for that by frequency. And there's been a reluctance to really embrace that.

CH: That was B.C. seniors advocate Isobel Mackenzie speaking with Stephen Quinn, host of CBC Vancouver's Early Edition.

[Music]

TikTok 3D pill bottle

Guest: Jimmy Choi

CH: Jimmy Choi is an elite athlete who's run marathons and competed on American Ninja Warrior. These days, he posts a lot of his work on Tiktok -- typical video might show him doing a staggering number of one-armed push ups. Jimmy Choi also has Parkinson's disease. And last month he posted a seven second Tiktok video with Taylor Swift's song Shake It Off. Playing in the background. The video showed Mr. Choi's shaky hand struggling to get a tiny pill out of a small medication bottle. That post received hundreds of thousands of views, and one of those viewers came up with a solution. We reached Jimmy Choi in Bolingbrook, Illinois.

CO: Jimmy, people who follow you online have seen you perform some pretty astounding physical feats. What made you decide to post a video of you with the pill bottle?

JIMMY CHOI: Well, I think it's very important that, you know, like you just mentioned people who follow me and they watch my videos of doing all these crazy things that many, "healthy and normal people" can't do. But these are things that everybody can do if they just train and really commit to learning and getting through the physical side of that. But on the other side, I wanted to show people that living with Parkinson's isn't all about breaking world records and doing push ups and things like that. But there is an everyday struggle that is real things like getting a pill out of a pill bottle or tying my shoes or buttoning my shirt. These are things that anybody can do without training or having a workout regimen. But yet these are things that people like myself and other people living with Parkinson's have problems with every day.

CO: So you put up this post showing yourself -- your hand shaking as you attempted to get these little tiny pills out of the bottle. And by putting that up, you had hundreds of thousands of responses. What did you make of that?

JC: Oh, it was just really all inspiring to me because it showed me that there's a lot of good in this world. And it really is truly amazing to see how the community then jumped in. Folks that have no connection to Parkinson's decided, hey, you know what, I have an idea and here's the idea. And then other folks jumped in and say, hey, I love your idea, I can help you with that. And next thing you know, we've got a prototype within days.

CO: And this is the extraordinary part of the story -- 800,000 people respond to you and among those people who say, well, let's figure this out, I mean, let's have a solution to this pill bottle problem. And so what did you make of the first Tiktok presentation that said here's a way of maybe making a pill bottle that will work?

JC: Oh, I mean, I looked at the design and this is a design by Brian Alldridge and I looked at the design, I'm like, this is so simple and yet so groundbreaking, right. It was like a mind blowing moment for me because the design that he proposed and shown was so simple. And I'm like, that will work. That exactly solves the problem, right. I don't have to fight my finger dexterity or -the lack thereof to try to reach for a single pill. And all I have to do is turn this very user-friendly knob at the bottom of the pill bottle and it will isolate one pill. And then I can use the entire pill bottle as a vessel to deliver the pill to my mouth that also eliminates another step of taking a pill and putting it in my hands and then have my hands shake possibility of dropping the pill. You know, it just eliminated a lot of that. It was incredible.

CO: And then, of course, other people had other ideas because Brian Alldridge had the idea, the design, but not the manufacturing technique. And so what happened then? Who came forward with an idea as to how you could actually manufacture these things quickly?

JC: So Brian came up with the idea -- and first of all, I want to mention that Brian isn't even an engineer, he's in the entertainment business. He produces I believe it's country music videos here in the United States. So he just has an idea. And he taught himself how to design in 3D and CAD, but he didn't have access to a way of producing a prototype. And this is where the 3D printing community jumped in. And it wasn't just one person, but it was multiple people. But the person that really took it to the next level and really engaged, he goes by the name of The Hungry Engineer and his name is David. And he took the designs, printed it out, and then he provided feedback to Brian. And then together they did a version two and version three. And then when I got my hands on the prototypes, I provided my feedback. And now we're all the way up to version five. And really the most incredible part is that David opened himself up to the rest of the world, says, you know what, this product, this pill bottle really needs to get into the hands of people. So he selflessly offered up sending up to 50 free bottles to anybody that needs it for free as long as they pledge to donate, you know, x-number of dollars or whatever it is to the Michael J. Fox Foundation for Parkinson's research, which I'm a member of the patient board on the Michael J. Fox Foundation, and to me that just hit home. I didn't even ask him to do that. He didn't know that I was a patient board member. He just put the two together and said, you know what, I'm willing to send 50 of these out at my cost, materials and shipping, as long as you donate to the Fox Foundation.

CO: You talk about Brian Allridge and The Hungry Engineer (David) as though they're old friends. But you didn't know them before all this began, did you?

JC: No, not at all. They saw my video. Brian saw my video. And, you know, he said I have an idea and it can help. And he just wanted to help. So he put his idea out there and then his video went viral, you know, even more than my original video, which was great. And then David came in and showed how the bottle was produced in different pieces, slapped it together and show people how it works. Incredible. And his video went viral as well -- the reach has been nothing short of outstanding.

CO: And what have you heard from other people who have now had a chance to use these new bottles?

JC: So, you know, I do know that David has sent several of these bottles out to other people. I haven't had directly contact with them, obviously, for privacy reasons. But I've given my bottle to other people to use. And the feedback has been pretty much the same type of feedback that I have is: this is so simple and yet so surprised that no one has ever thought of this. But, you know, there's other issues with the pill that we have now addressed going forward in version five. And I'm supposed to get my hands on one of those in the next couple of days, I can't wait to see it.

CO: And, you know, there's a lot of criticism of social media and what it does -- the negative stuff it does. But this is what happens, I guess, when complete strangers, a very large community gets together and says, let's solve this guy's problem.

JC: You know, this is really the good side of social media that we really need people to see. You know, like you said, there's a lot of negativity out there, especially in the last several months, right. But people need to see the positive side of that, that social media can be used for good things and for things that are helping and making an impact not just on one person, two people, but we're talking thousands of people that this will have an impact on.

CO: Jimmy it's a great story. And thank you for telling it to us.

JC: Oh, thank you for having me.

CH: There was elite athlete Jimmy Choi. We reached him in Bolingbrook, Illinois. And you can find more on that story on our webpage: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Michael Fonfara

CH: When Michael Fonfara played the Hammond B3 organ, it was like a full body workout. His hands were in constant motion. The left locked in a steady walking baseline. The right ran up and down the upper keys, occasionally grabbing a draw bars to shift the sound. Meanwhile, his knees were bouncing as his feet worked the pedals, and all the while his head swung back and forth like a giant metronome, overseeing it all and somehow keeping everything together. Mr. Fonfara, a prolific Canadian keyboardist, died on Friday. He was 74. It wasn't just a Hammond organ, though. Mr. Fonfara never limited himself to one keyboard, which meant his career was as eclectic as his sound. He started performing in the 1960s with rock bands like The Electric Flag, and Rhinoceros. But later on he found mainstream success recording with the Everly Brothers, and Foreigner. And in 1974, he landed a gig playing keys for Lou Reed. They went on to record nine albums together. Despite his international success, Mr. Fonfara remained a fixture on the Canadian blues scene.

January 11, 2021 Episode Transcript

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