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The AIH Transcript for June 3, 2021

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello, I’m Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is “As It Happens”.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

CO: Call and delayed response. Two years after Canada's Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls inquiry referred to the disappearances as “genocide”. We hear from one of the women behind a long-awaited plan of action.

CH: Church and state. Both played a role in Canada's residential school abuses -- and our guest says it's shocking that some Catholic leaders continue to claim ignorance of the facts.

CO: Tunnel vision. Windsor's mayor is determined to get his city vaccinated -- and that's helped bring one possible solution into focus: using the Windsor-Detroit tunnel to administer the shots.

CH: Change of address. A high school valedictorian in Texas tells us why she decided to ditch her approved speech -- and go with a now viral pro-choice proclamation instead.

CO: Come from away -- again. Newfoundlanders around the country are rejoicing that they'll be able to visit their home province again as soon as July 1st -- and our guest says her flights are already booked.

CH: And... setting the records straight. After taking some time to digest Bob Dylan's bizarre 1970 double album “Self-Portrait”, a San Francisco man returns it to the library -- 48 years after he checked it out.

CH: “As It Happens”, the Thursday edition. Radio that guesses the library will do what Dylan probably should have done and shelve it.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: MMIWG Action Plan, Windsor/ Detroit Vaccines, Texas Abortion Valedictorian

MMIWG Action Plan

Guest: Hilda Anderson-Pyrz

CH: Exactly two years ago today, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau told Canada's Indigenous People, "We have failed you. But we will fail you no longer." The failures he was talking about were laid out in an extraordinary report into missing and murdered Indigenous women and girls. The report called the disappearances and murders a genocide -- a finding the Prime Minister would eventually come to accept. Today, his government released its long-awaited response -- and a call to action. Here's the Prime Minister today.

SOUNDCLIP

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: Today, with the launch of the plan, we're taking a step forward together to make the transformative change necessary to end this national tragedy. To the survivors and families, we are so grateful for your leadership. We will continue to work with you to make sure your voices are heard and to end the violence and the abuse. I still have the sacred bundle that was offered to me two years ago at the inquiry's final report ceremony, and I've been taking good care of it. The inquiry's final report contains truths that Canada is no longer trying to hide. On that day, I made a promise that we would confront those truths and turn the inquiry's calls for justice into real, meaningful, Indigenous-led action. That's what we have done and what we will continue to do.

CH: The government says today's National Action Plan takes a holistic approach. It seeks to root out systemic racism in both policing and healthcare; it promises to invest in transitional and affordable housing; and it hands Indigenous communities more control over social services. Hilda Anderson-Pyrz helped develop the plan. She's the co-chair of the National Family and Survivors Circle. And for her, the national inquiry and action plan are deeply personal: her sister, Dawn Anderson, died in 2011. We reached Hilda Anderson-Pyrz in Winnipeg.

CO: Hilda, we just heard the prime minister saying he wanted to make sure the voices of survivors and families were heard through this action plan. Did you feel that your voice was heard?

HILDA ANDERSON-PYRZ: I believe, like, you know, being a participant through the co-development process of the National Action Plan and the National Family and Survivors Circle, having our own chapter, I believe you know that the work was centred around families and survivors being present and contributing to go forward, solutions related to the National Action Plan and best practices. It wasn't perfect, but it's a start.

CO: So is that a yes that your voice was heard?

HAP: Yes, I feel that the voices of the National Family and Survivors Circle were heard during the process.

CO: And what do you think they heard from you? What do you think the message you got through?

HAP: the message from the Circle was quite clear, that we wanted action. We want accountability mechanisms in place and that any action going forward must be felt on the ground by family members, survivors, Indigenous women and girls and 2SLGBTIQ+ people. And it has to be, like, tangible results, and there has to be an accountability structure in place that measures the outcomes, the success of the outcome.

CO: The numbers are really shocking, aren't they? What was the basis of having to do this... this kind of investigation when we know that Indigenous women and girls are 12 times more likely to be murdered or go missing than any other women in Canada. And that though the population of Indigenous people is four per cent of the Canadian population, 28 per cent of the homicides against women are Indigenous. And so those are the numbers, right?

HAP: Yes.

CO And so, what do you see? Is there anything in this report that will change those shocking statistics?

HAP: Well, I think, you know, within this report, there has to be truth-telling, you know, which the prime minister has acknowledged. You know, there's still a lot of work that has to be done when it comes to the implementation, which is the next phase, the implementation plan, which will identify the how and the what and the when as well. That has to be a whole of government approach. It cannot be done in silos because all governments, whether it's federal, provincial, territorial, municipal, Indigenous governments, they all have a responsibility to act.

CO: I'm just trying to get a concrete sense of what will change? Because the plan promises funding for First Nations-led policing, but also funding to address systemic racism in the ranks of the RCMP. What do you see in there? What... is their money behind that? Is there... is there muscle behind that idea?

HAP: There still needs to be a lot of details attached to the budget as to where the funding will be allocated? There has to be infrastructure resourcing and financial commitments.

CO: This is personal for you, isn't it, because of your sister, Dawn, who died in 2011? Can you tell us about Dawn?

HAP: My sister Dawn was amazing, you know, she was full of life, she was a beautiful sister, a beautiful daughter, and she was a beautiful mother to three children. And, you know, the loss of her has impacted our family greatly and still continues to impact because she's no longer present in our lives. And we deeply miss her. And a lot of, like, the majority of the work that I do is dedicated to her children. I know for my mother, in many ways, like, you know, she still grieves a lot for... for the loss of my sister. And it's difficult to kind of go beyond that grief sometimes when you've lost your youngest child or any child, for that matter.

CO: The official cause of death for Dawn was she died of exposure. But your family has always believed that something else happened or may have happened, that some violence had happened to her, right?

HAP: Yes. Yes. Given all the circumstances surrounding her death and the, you know, lack of proper investigation into her death still haunts my family today because we, you know, we'll never know the truth, you know? But it's been difficult, you know, challenging systems that are supposed to be reactive and responsive and not neglectful.

CO: So you feel you'll never get answers to what happened to Dawn. Do you think there's anything in this... this announcement today, anything that will change that would make that not the case for another family like yours?

HAP: Well, I think, you know, when we look at, you know, accountability mechanisms with policing and justice, I'm hopeful that, you know, no other families will have to have the same lived experience as our... as my family and many other families out... out there in Canada.

CO: Is that possible if what we've seen and what we learned in the course of... of the Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls inquiry, that how much systemic racism, how deeply baked into the policing and the justice system that... that exists. How difficult do you think it is to rout that? And can you just do it with money and with soft policies? What has to change?

HAP: Well, I think, you know, there has to be accountability measures in place to address racism and hold individuals accountable, like within institutions, but also within the justice system and policing institutions as well. I think there's a lot of work to do to undo hundreds of years of racism and colonial impacts to Indigenous women and girls and to other 2SLGBTQI+ people. It's going to take a long time to undo that. But I think there's an immediate need right now because it's really highlighted the... the impacts of racism within institutions.

CO: This isn't just about Indigenous people, is it? I mean, if the Canadian population doesn't understand what happened, that there was this... this rate of... of abuse and death, that there is what the prime minister has accepted a genocide. Do you think the Canadians are waking up to the reality of what has happened to Indigenous people in this country?

HAP: I think especially, you know, with the recent findings of 215 children in Kamloops, BC, I think that was another wakeup call to Canadians. Canadians have had many wake-up calls when it comes to the genocide of Indigenous people in Canada. And unfortunately, many have turned a blind eye to it. But I think, you know, as more and more comes to light, Canadians are starting to feel, you know, the impacts and their responsibility as well to act and be a part of the solution. Because in order to create transformative change as a country, each and every one of us has to be part of the solution and act.

CO: All right. We will be watching. Hilda, thank you.

HAP: Thank you. Bye-bye.

CH: Hilda Anderson-Pyrz is co-chair of the National Family and Survivors Circle, and helped develop today's National Action Plan following the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls. She was in Winnipeg.

[music: bright piano]

Windsor/ Detroit Vaccines

Guest: Drew Dilkens

CH: The mayor of Windsor, Ontario is one step closer to realizing a vaccination plan that has all the trappings of a Cold War prisoner exchange. Drew Dilkens' idea is to send Windsorites into the tunnel that connects the city with Detroit, Michigan. Waiting for them below, at a line marking the international border, would be Detroiters armed with needles full of COVID-19 vaccines. Those US vaccines would then be injected into Canadian arms -- without anyone having to leave their country. Those may seem like extreme measures but the corporation that runs the tunnel gave the plan the OK last night. We reached Mayor Drew Dilkens in Windsor.

CO: Mayor Dilkens, how is this vaccine plan going to work?

DREW DILKENS: Well, listen, it's not our preferred solution to do vaccinations inside the Windsor-Detroit Tunnel. But if we can't get vaccines a more sensible way, we're prepared to do it. And we're going to do it because we own our half of the tunnel. And so yesterday, the tunnel board met and unanimously said, Mayor, if you have to close the tunnel, you do it. You do it as many times as you need to and as often as you need to in order to facilitate the vaccination of our residents here. And by the way, when you do it, draw a line on the road in the centre that demarks the the boundary line between the United States and Canada so that both CBSA and U.S. Customs and Border Patrol officials have the comfort that they need to know that everyone is staying on the right side of the line.

CO: OK, so describe what will actually happen? If I was to go and get vaccinated there, I'm driving into the tunnel, just just describe what I'd go through?

DD: Yeah, well, we'd have you park off-site. There's lots of parking right around the... the entrance to the tunnel. So we'd have you park, we would take you down in a van of sorts down to the centre of the tunnel line, right to the line. You'd get out of the van. The Michigan vaccinator would be on her side of the line with the vaccines. And, of course, you... they need to know who you are. We identify all, you know, identify everyone appropriately. And your feet would be on either side of the line and, you know, your arm and the syringe would meet somewhere in the middle, and you'd be fully vaccinated, and we'd return you to the top where you can wait your 15 minutes with the nurse and the paramedic. [CO chuckles] And then you'd be free to go, and you'd be a fully-vaccinated Canadian.

CO: OK, so doing this in tunnels, what's the lighting like? What's it like to be in the tunnel?

DD: Oh, oh yeah. No, it's... the lighting is just fine. No problem at all making this happen. It's very bright down in the tunnel. And we have some of the best air exchange of any tunnel in the world. In fact, every 90 seconds, there's full air exchange in the entire tunnel. So it's... it's... you know, we've run marathons down there. It's certainly a place that's normally for vehicles. But in cases like this, I think during COVID, where we've all had to pivot and adapt and do unique things, this is just another unique thing as we get closer to the end of getting everyone fully vaccinated.

CO: Why are the Americans making this available to you?

DD: Well, this is the interesting part of the story. We have about 1,200 people who live in the city of Windsor who cross to work every day in the metro Detroit area. And these are folks who are in health care for the most part. So nurses, physicians and pharmacists. And they're the ones who are calling us saying, listen. We know what the situation is like back at home. We are throwing doses of vaccine in the garbage. We can't give it away. One pharmacist works for a Costco in Michigan, and she says, Drew, I pierce a vial, I draw a dose, and there are five more doses in the vial. We have to go to the front door of the Costco and encourage people to get it, and we're still throwing dozens of vials away. And so they have vaccine that is set to expire. And we have arms that are waiting for vaccine. And the thought of this liquid gold ending up in landfill is just something that I don't think any of us are willing to let happen without a fight. And so this is all about trying to take these doses that are set to expire for Michigan and before they hit landfill, let's make sure they hit the arms of waiting Canadians, so we can get them fully vaccinated. And when the border does open, we can help reunite the families who've been patiently waiting for the better part of 16 months to see their loved ones.

CO: But Canada is catching up, right? In fact, some reports are that we have surpassed others for first doses of the vaccine. Canada is getting shots into our arms. So why is it necessary to go to the United States for this? Not to say that they should be throwing these doses away, but don't we have enough here?

DD: We don't have enough here. And that's the problem. We have enough, and we're doing... we're tracking really well on first doses. But in terms of second doses, I mean, the prime minister himself has said this is going to be a one-dose summer. And I don't think anyone's happy with that thought. I think all of us want to have a fully vaccinated summer. And as we track closer to June 22nd, which would likely be a date that you're going to see some movement in the reopening of the border, it's quite likely you're going to see Canada continue to extend restrictions on re-entry into the country for folks who are partially-vaccinated. In fact, Canada in their... in their document that they released earlier this week, has indicated that even if you're fully vaccinated, your entry will not be easier back to Canada unless that vaccination, that second dose was received at least 14 days prior. And so I know in my community, we have thousands of people who have family members on the other side of the border, and that's just a function of our geography, who want to reunite with these family members, who've been apart for 16 months. And they're going to want to do it. And making these folks and helping these folks get fully vaccinated where there's at least a two-week window between the last dose and the reopening of the border will allow them to reunite with their loved ones very quickly and easily when that border does open and then come home without having the burden of quarantine.

CO: Is this a stunt in order to make a point? Are you trying to... to point out to the Canadian levels of government, federal and provincial, that they have let you down?

DD: I wouldn't call it a stunt. It is a practical way that we can make this happen. What I'm trying to show is that we own infrastructure and that, you know, we can... listen, we all have a shared goal. [chuckle] Let me answer it this way. We have a shared goal. And the shared goal is to get our population vaccinated. And in a border community like mine, it may have... we definitely have more pressure than perhaps in an area like the GTA that's further removed from the border. And because of that geography, it puts more pressure on people wanting to get vaccinated to be able to prepare for the reopening of the border and the benefits that full vaccination will provide. And I don't think anyone here is... is wanting to have a single-dose summer. We've been in this COVID soup for a long time now. Everyone wants to move more quickly. And when we have doses that are available to us that are literally like two kilometres away, people cannot understand why our government can't figure out a functional pathway to get those doses that are otherwise going to be thrown away into the arms of waiting residents. We don't have enough here. And although, you know, we're doing well on first doses, less than six per cent of our population is fully vaccinated. We know we have to do way better than that in order to reach herd immunity. And all I'm trying to do is accomplish our shared goal, and that's help get our residents vaccinated. And I'll tell you this, people have said many, many times that this is a race between the vaccine and the variant. If that's the case, I want my community to win, and they're going to win by getting their vaccine.

CO: All right. We hear you. Mayor Dilkens, thank you.

DD: Thank you very much.

CH: Drew Dilkens is the Mayor of Windsor, Ontario. And we reached him in Windsor.

[music: pop beat]

Texas Abortion Valedictorian

Guest: Paxton Smith

CH: On Sunday, Paxton Smith stepped up to the podium in her red cap and gown. And she explained to her classmates that she was going to use her high school valedictorian speech to talk about TV and the media -- originally. But since her governor had signed one of the country's most restrictive abortion laws into effect last month, she ditched her pre-approved speech, and gave a different one. About that law -- and the effect it would have on women in Texas.

SOUNDCLIP

PAXTON SMITH: Before they have the chance to decide if they can take on the responsibility of bringing another human being into the world, that decision is made for them by a stranger. A decision that will affect the rest of their lives is made by a stranger. I have dreams and hopes, and ambitions. Every girl graduating today does. And we have spent our entire lives working towards our future. And without our input and without our consent, our control over that future has been stripped away from us. I am terrified that if my contraceptives fail, I am terrified that if I am raped, then my hopes and aspirations and dreams and efforts for my future will no longer matter. I hope that you can feel how gut-wrenching that is. I hope you can feel how dehumanizing it is to have the autonomy over your own body taken away from you. And I'm talking about this today, on a day as important as this, on a day honouring 12 years of hard academic work, on a day where we are all gathered together, on a day where you are most inclined to listen to a voice like mine, a woman's voice, to tell you that this is a problem. And it's a problem that cannot wait. And I cannot give up this platform to promote complacency and peace when there is a war on my body and a war on my rights, a war on the rights of your mothers, a war on the rights of your sisters, a war on the rights of your daughters, we cannot stay silent.

CH: That was Lake Highlands High School valedictorian Paxton Smith's now-viral speech about restrictions on abortion in Texas. We reached Ms. Smith in Dallas.

CO: Paxton, what has it been like for you to watch your speech shared around the world?

PS: It feels great. I'm super excited about how much traction the speech has gotten. It's opening up a lot of conversations for so many people.

CO: Did you think that it would be... go beyond your school? Did you think that that was what was going to happen when you gave the speech?

PS: I did not think that it would make it as far as it did. A large part of me thought that the microphone was going to get cut off, and that was going to be the end of the speech forever.

CO: And you had reason to believe the mic might be cut off. That's... that's what they had warned you, right?

PS: They had not told me anything about that. But I had been informed by some of my parents' friends that a couple of years ago, an RASD valedictorian went off script, and they cut their mic.

CO: You had to submit your original speech, which was about TV and the media, to be vetted and approved by the school. What was the point when you decided that you were going to ditch that speech and give the one you gave?

PS: I decided about 10 days before graduation. I was trying to finish a school assignment for a psychology class, and I couldn't bring myself to focus on the assignment because I was so caught up in thinking about the heartbeat bill and how much it upset me. And it hit me in that moment that that's what I should talk about.

CO: And so this is because of the time that the Texas governor, Greg Abbott, was signing this bill, which virtually prohibits abortions under almost any circumstances after six weeks, right?

PS Right.

CO: And so when you sat down to write it, what was... what was in your mind? What were you thinking when you wrote this address down?

PS: That is a good question. I was really just thinking about all the ways that this affects me and how unjustified it is.

CO: but you also said in your address that you were thinking about not just your own rights, but those of the mothers that were there, of your fellow students, sisters, daughters, were you --

PS: Right, exactly. That's why I was making this speech. Because it doesn't just affect me. I think when I was upset because it affected me, that sparked me to think about making the speech. But the ultimate reason why I made it was because it affects everyone.

CO: And have you ever done anything like this before?

PS: I have not. The only similar thing that I can think of that I have done is I went to a rally at Dallas City Hall against the heartbeat bill very recently. But that's the only similar thing that I've done.

CO: So you've never been an activist, you've never spoken out, this was never something you'd ever do before?

PS: Right.

CO: What was it like to step over that line?

PS: It was a little nerve-racking. I didn't know how it was going to be taken. And I fully expected it to not go anything like the way that it did go. I expected people to be very upset with me, but it's gone very well, and the message has spread so far. So I'm very glad that I did it.

CO: And even people like Hillary Clinton tweeting that, just how much courage you have. Did you feel... did you think it was courage that... that was behind this? Is that how you felt, that you were doing something very brave?

PS: I don't think so. It's hard to say because I feel like... I felt like I was just doing the right thing. I mean, that's really it. Like, I had emotions about it, but ultimately I felt like it was wrong to use that platform to address reproductive rights because that's what's going on right now. So people... people call it brave. People call it courageous. Like, I guess that's understandable. But I didn't view it as a brave act.

CO: The man who introduced you, who I think spoke longer than you did, actually. [both chuckle] and he... he said many times he kept on referring to what he remembered of you or knew of you is that you were always asking questions. You ask so many questions. [chuckling]

PS: Yes.

CO: He said that several times. Is that… do you think that's... that's part of where this comes from, that you have this enquiring mind, that you question things?

PS: Absolutely. Absolutely, I think so.

CO: And so where do you think that's going to take you?

PS: That's a good question. I don't know, I guess, you know, it's always… that's just how I've always been. So, it's hard to say.

CO: What has been the reaction from the school since it happened? What have they said to you?

PS: Initially, right after I graduated, they told me that Lake Highlands were considering withholding my diploma, but that ended up not happening. And I haven't heard from the school district since then.

CO: Did they reprimand you at all?

PS: No.

CO: And they've also said that students who are chosen to speak are chosen to speak on neutral criteria and deliver the messages of the student's own choice, but they don't hold any responsibility of what you say. So they seem to... are not taking any responsibility for you either.

PS: That's probably for the best. It is... it is a federal institution. So they are generally supposed to stay neutral so that it's a safe place for everybody who goes there.

CO: Do you think Texas Governor Greg Abbott heard you?

PS: Probably by now.

CO: [chuckling] And how do you think he's reacting to what you had to say?

PS: Oh, goodness, I have no idea.

CO: How would you like him to be reacting?

PS: I hope there's a little bit of a kick in his step now. That he knows we noticed, and we're not OK with it.

CO: What would you like to say to him here?

PS: I think that he should follow his own words when he talked about the situation with masks, that if it's my body, it's my choice, and I shouldn't have to be forced into doing anything I don't want to do.

CO: Well, maybe he's heard that message from you, Paxton. And he sure has heard the speech, as everyone else has. And it's... it's really... it's really good to talk to you. And lots of people do admire you, and so do I.

PS: Thank you so much for meeting with me.

CO: Bye-bye.

PS Bye.

CH: That was Lake Highlands High School valedictorian Paxton Smith in Dallas, Texas. And you can find more on this story -- including her full speech -- on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[music: acoustic guitar]

Part 2: Residential Schools - Catholic Church, NL Tourism Opens

Residential Schools - Catholic Church

Guest: Mary Ellen Turpel-Lafond Aki-Kwe

CH: Some prominent Canadian Catholics are making public apologies. Today, Vancouver Archbishop J. Michael Miller offered a, quote, "deep apology" after the preliminary findings of remains at the former Kamloops residential school. But the apology many survivors have been waiting on for years is from the head of the church. The Pope has yet to apologize for the church's role in the residential school system -- or release documents that could lead to more unmarked graves. The Roman Catholic Archbishop of Ottawa-Cornwall, Marcel Damphousse was on CBC's "Ottawa Morning" today. Here is part of that interview.

SOUNDCLIP

MARCEL DAMPHOUSSE: I'm so sorry this is happening. I don't personally understand that the whole residential school system and what happened there, and why it happened. I did not grow up knowing about it. I found out about it in the news, maybe in the 80s. It's kind of a very... a reality that I'm not familiar with.

ROBYN BRESNAHAN: What have you done, Archbishop, to educate yourself further about the residential school system?

MD: So that's what I'm doing right now. I need to learn a lot more about this to be able to answer better to the whole reality.

RB: You say you found out --

MD: The whole Church... the whole Church is suffering from this.

RB: The Church is suffering?

MD: Absolutely.

RB: How so?

MD: Because it's part of... it's part of who we are. Students in those schools some of them were Catholic. They're part of our family.

RB: You say you are distraught. Are you sorry?

MD: Of course, belonging to the Catholic Church and any part of the Catholic Church played in the residential school program. There is something flawed from the very beginning. I don't all understand. But the little I know, the government is the one that called upon the Catholic Church to help out. And a lot of the residential schools, to my understanding, were run by the religious communities. And so the... the dioceses, so the bishop would have little knowledge of what was going on in the residential schools. And, like, when we speak of records, a lot of those records never made it to the bishop.

RB: You know --

MD: That's my understanding of things, I don't know. I might be mistaken.

RB: Right. I mean, just the language that you used in that sentence, that the government called on the Catholic Church to help out. I mean, I can only imagine that that would feel like a dagger to someone who was like Evelyn Korkmaz, who was 10 years old when she was taken away from her family and her culture. It doesn't exactly seem like helping out. I mean, would you admit that you are... or have been fairly ignorant about the history of residential schools?

MD: Absolutely.

CH: That was Ottawa-Cornwall Archbishop Marcel Damphousse speaking with host Robyn Bresnahan on CBC's "Ottawa Morning" today. Mary Ellen Turpel-Lafond Aki-Kwe is the Director of the Residential School History and Dialogue Centre at the University of British Columbia. We reached her in Victoria.

CO: Mary Ellen, what is it like for you to hear that clip of Ottawa-Cornwall Archbishop Marcel Damphousse?

MARY ELLEN TURPEL-LAFOND AKI-KWE: Well, it's a bit difficult to hear that because the Catholic Church was extensively involved in the residential school project. Seventy per cent of the schools were run under different religious congregations within the Catholic Church, like the Oblates and others. And the fact that they would not have knowledge about schools, and the fact that the survivors have for decades talked about the missing children and their experiences, you know, it just tells me that the religious leaders today have not necessarily received a very thorough understanding of, you know, what has gone on and the truth.

CO: But I mean, it's not just, I guess, a deep knowledge that it's lacking. I mean, it seems to be any knowledge. And you just mentioned, he said, well, if the church played any part in the residential schools, I want to know about it. I want to gather… I'm gathering the facts. I want to sit down, hear stories, and I don't understand how that could have happened, all of these things. How does it strike you that after all these years of the Truth and Reconciliation report, of everything that's been said, that a prominent member of the Catholic Church, that... that played such a major role in these schools would not even have a basic knowledge of these things?

METLAK: Well, it's disturbing, to say the least. And it speaks to a very fundamental thing that the survivors and the TRC have said for some time, which is the pope needs to make, you know, a clear and unequivocal apology. Because even within the Church itself, there's different, you know, confusing statements, and they confuse. So, you know, the archbishop for Vancouver offered a statement of expression of a commitment yesterday about all of the things that they want to do in the district in Vancouver that would include the Kamloops school to make amends. Yet, then there's another archbishop or bishop that says, I really don't know anything about the schools. If there's something to learn, I'd like to learn it. This is why the pope and the Church itself has not adequately addressed the reconciliation requirement that's been on them. They've known about this for years. They've been in courts for years, you know, fighting survivors. And this isn't new. This is a 40-year process. But we... we shouldn't try to suppress or deny the truth of what happened here.

CO: But even the archbishop of Vancouver is saying this about records, and then the archbishop of Ottawa saying, well, we never got the records, never came to our level. So even the commitment from Vancouver, when they say, well, we'd give you our records if we had them. I mean, how frustrating has it been that you have not been able to get the records of the residential schools from the Catholic Church?

METLAK: Yeah, I think that, you know, this whole fight about records is, oh, we have to... you know, we haven't yet seen them. We haven't seen them all. And Canada made agreements with the churches, particularly if you talk about the Kamloops records, they made agreements that they would not make them available until the Church had a chance to quote-unquote, correct inaccuracies, which means they still get to work through the records before we see them. And other records that are really important, like the daily records of the schools, you know, aren't there. And in some instances, you know, the funeral records and other things that it will be important to... as pieces of evidence in the investigation of the unmarked burial site. So the whole issue of access to records, you know, there's no accountability mechanism over the Church about who… you know, how do we make them accountable to disclose records?

CO: You're dealing with a situation where there either are no records, or you can't get access to records because they weren't given to you about who might be in these graves, that you have unmarked burial sites all across the country. At some point, when does this have to be called criminal?

METLAK: Well, it already is a criminal investigation because an unmarked, undocumented burial site suggests that's how it's supposed to be treated as a matter of international law and as a matter of humanitarian law. But more importantly, you know, there's records that may be in the archives, but we do have a record. We have the statements of the survivors, their oral histories. Those are also official records. They're official records of a national commission, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. And, you know, we don't have to look to the Church records as the only source.

CO: So why do you think the Catholic Church in Canada does not want those records released?

METLAK: Well, they... they have never opened them up to Indigenous people fully. They've concealed them, and they've said that they're inaccurate. And so, the only reason why I can say that they haven't made them open is because they haven't felt a commitment and obligation and accountability to do so. And Canada hasn't used its full authority to do that, nor has Canada been held accountable. So the challenge we have is, you know, Canada has some of the records, and they took them under agreements that said we will not release them until you get to do these things. So both of those layers need to be removed. And for the Kamloops school, the Oblate records and particularly what we're dealing with, with the situation that has come to light, with the unmarked burial, that side of records, as one example, is one that needs to be completely opened.

CO: You have all these families who testified and told the stories over the years that their children did not come home by the hundreds, by the thousands. They didn't come home. They died. We have... we know from the documentation that they were malnourished. They were... had had experiments done on them. They had TB. They were tortured. All these things happened. How much... how much accountability has there been at this point? And given all that we've known, all that's been revealed, who has been held accountable for that?

METLAK: Well, the accountability has been limited. We did... you know, there have been people prosecuted for sexually abusing children in the schools. There's been... there's been, you know, probably about 30 major prosecutions. There have been civil lawsuits that resulted in settlements, often because the government decided to take responsibility and pay some sort of settlement out. But in terms of accountability for what actually occurred, you know, which First Nations, in particular, have alleged very strongly, it looks like an international crime against humanity, that that has never occurred, has never been taken in that light from a human rights lens. And I think that the full truth hasn't come out on that. We've... we've seen, continued to see efforts to suppress the truth and not to know the truth. And it does concern me if those who are in religious leadership within the Catholic Church or any church if they don't know the story of residential school and they can hold those offices, you know, that's a significant effort to suppress the truth. And that has to be reversed.

CO: Mary Ellen, as always, it's good to talk to you. Thank you.

METLAK: It's great to talk to you. Thank you.

CH: Mary Ellen Turpel-Lafond Aki-Kwe is Director of the Residential School History and Dialogue Centre at UBC. We reached her in Victoria. We requested an interview with the Vancouver Archbishop, J. Michael Miller, but we were told he was not available to speak to us.

[music: pulsing synth beat]

NL Tourism Opens

Guest: Jill Dempsey-Kenny

CH: No matter how long they've lived away, most people from Newfoundland and Labrador still consider the province to be home. And with provincial borders closed to most visitors for the last year-and-a-half, a lot of expats are feeling pretty homesick. Yesterday, though, the province announced plans to open up for tourists and other non-essential visitors as soon as July 1st. Which is music to the ears of Jill Dempsey-Kenny. We reached her in Toronto.

CO: Jill, what was your first reaction when you heard that Newfoundland was going to open to the outside world again?

JILL DEMPSEY-KENNY: I actually cried. It broke my heart. [warm chuckle] Many, many emotions.

CO: What were those emotions about?

JDK: It's been too long coming. Two years has been a long time to be away from my family. I've missed so much in those two years. Many milestones. My parents are elderly. My dad turned 90 in January. I missed that. My mom's been sick the last little while, can't get to see her. So it's been all over the place with babies being born, missed funerals.

CO: So it's not just the funerals and the births you missed there. They've missed seeing people coming with new babies as well, I would imagine?

JDK: Exactly. Yes, exactly. And for them to see... they haven't seen their grandchildren out west. And two have been born that they haven't seen.

CO: What are you hearing from other folks, other folks who want to get home for the summer after having missed the past year and a half?

JDK: Everybody is excited, and everybody is emotional. Everybody just wants to go home. [hearty laugh] And they are in the same boat, too. Flights are expensive, but you have to pay if you want to go, right?

CO: So just tell people in case they haven't followed the news, what exactly are the restrictions in Newfoundland as far as being able to go and... and see people?

JDK: If you're fully vaccinated, no restrictions, no isolation, no COVID test. If you have one dose, you have to provide a negative test three days before arrival or isolate until you can get a negative test. And if no vaccination, you have to isolate for 14 days.

CO: That's a big change, isn't it?

JDK: It is.

CO: I mean, it's been so difficult to go there up to now.

JDK: Mmm-hmm. And last year, I applied because you had to apply. And we get denied four times. We couldn't... we couldn't go at all, no matter what. My parents being elderly and not well, we still got denied.

CO: Just remind us of that. Because last year, you actually had to make the case as to why you should be able to get in, right?

JDK: Yes, that's correct. Very stressful. Very upsetting to get denied to go to your own province to see your elderly parents. It was... it was a very stressful time. Now I'm emotional. [laughing] Oh, it's been tough. It's been a tough year.

CO: And when you say, as you just did, people wanting to go home, this is something that maybe other parts of the country don't understand as much as you would a Newfoundland or places like Cape Breton. People go home. No matter where you live, how long you've lived outside of Newfoundland, it's home to you, is it?

JDK: It's home. It's home. It's no place like it. You miss the people. And here, I have absolutely no immediate family here, just my husband and kids. But I have nobody else. And it's really tough, especially when we're isolated here and we can't do anything, can't see our family here. My husband can't even see his siblings that live down the street. It's been a hard go. And like I said, he's been frontline the whole time with no... no break. So it's been tough.

CO: That pull is so strong, isn't it?

JDK: It is. The salt air, I can't wait. [both laughing] And Mom's homemade bread. [laughing brightly] That's the things that we long for. We miss the freedom, the quietness, no hustle-bustle. No one's in a rush to do anything. Go at your own pace. And here, life is just hectic. Eat, work, sleep.

CO: When we spoke with people in Newfoundland over this period, though, they... they had mixed feelings, but they... they were OK. They were happy, in fact, with being protected, that they had low infection rates, that people did OK there compared to how things were in Ontario or other places. And so what are you hearing from family there? Of course, they want to see you, but are... how are they feeling about the outside world showing up?

JDK: I think there's mixed emotions there, too. And I get that. People are scared. They know they've been lucky. Unlike us here in Ontario, they've been lucky that it's been limited cases. And I get that they're nervous about people coming in and maybe cases rising. But I think if everybody can be fully vaccinated that that may ease their stress levels. And they need it. The tourism needs the people to come back to bring them back to life.

CO: I would suspect your parents need it from you.

JDK: Definitely. Definitely. My mom was so excited yesterday when she called. Oh, but scared at the same time. And I get that.

CO: So lots of tears?

JDK: Yes, lots and lots of tears. [laughing] And still tears today. Like, it's crazy. But I think it's been a... like the build-up of everything over the last year and a half, thinking that you are not going to get to go again this year. So when they said yes, I think the floodgates just opened, everything came out.

CO: What part of Newfoundland are you headed to?

JDK: Fleur de Lys.

CO: Fleur de Lys. And so what's the first thing you're going to do when you get there?

JDK: Hug my parents. [both laughing] And have a drink to celebrate. [laughing]

CO: Well, Jill, I hope it's everything that you're... that you're planning. And that it's a great celebration, a great coming home. So thanks for telling us about it.

JDK: Yes, we have lots to celebrate. My dad turned 90. I'm having my 50th birthday this year. My husband is having a 60th. So we're going to celebrate all of it when we get there.

CO: Oh, I think lots of drinks will be had!

JDK: Lots! [both laughing] And food. [both laughing some more] Definitely.

CO: Bon voyage.

JDK: Thank you. Have a nice day.

CO: Bye.

JDK: Bye-bye.

CH: We reached Jill Dempsey-Kenny in Toronto.

[music: ambient]

Overdue Dylan Record

CH: Off the top of my head, I can only think of one famous record review: Greil Marcus's review of the 1970 Bob Dylan double-album "Self-Portrait". Which begins by summing up the sprawling, off-putting, occasionally ridiculous work in four words: "What is this sh...tuff?" He didn't say "stuff". Dylanologists, of course, claim that "Self-Portrait" is a work of multilayered genius that requires months or years to truly excavate. Mind you, they probably say the same thing about this.

[music: “Must Be Santa” by Bob Dylan/ folk-polka?]

CH: It is great! Anyway: Howard Simon of San Francisco has spent a lot of time with "Self-Portrait". He first checked the album out in 1973, when he was in Grade 8. And ever since, he's been living with its oddball brilliance, or its deliberate stupidity. He's also been living with guilt. Which is why he finally returned it to the library he originally checked it out of. 48 years overdue. In a letter to the Ohio library, Mr. Simon wrote, "As a recent retiree, I am taking the opportunity to turn my attention to some of the many vignettes of life that, by dint of career and family, have been neglected these many years." He returned the album, in good condition, and enclosed a cheque for 175 dollars, by way of overdue fees. And the library is fine with that. That's all very nice. But we don't know whether all that time with "Self-Portrait" helped Howard Simon explain it at all. And some kind of explanation is what's really long overdue.

[music: banjo!]

Part 3: Sri Lanka Ship Burning, Chinese Furniture Tariff

BC Drug Poisonings

CH: In April, 176 British Columbians lost their lives to illicit drug poisonings. And the situation is not getting any better. Paramedics are now responding to an average of 96 overdose patients every day. In May, they received their highest call volume ever. Troy Clifford is the Provincial President of the Ambulance, Paramedics, and Dispatchers of BC union. He told CBC Vancouver what these numbers mean for the people on the front lines.

SOUNDCLIP

TROY CLIFFORD: You know, it is impacting them. This... this and the other pressures that we're under. You know, you know, we talk about the Lower Mainland because that's where we hear the most sirens. But this is not just a big city problem. You know, in fact, we're seeing it in every corner of this province. And... and that's what's worrisome. I think that safe supplies and overdose prevention... prevention and safe consumption sites are all tools that work as part of a harm reduction strategy. But paramedics... to really talk about the impact that paramedics and dispatchers are seeing as they're responding to the calls and resuscitating people and in some cases not resuscitating. And that has a long-lasting effect on... on mental health and wellness. You know, the operational stressors and the pressures we've seen like everybody else over the last year and a half with COVID. But, you know, the shortages of staff. So, you know, when you have increased calls in areas like this, 3,000 calls in a month to overdoses, that's more than just regular work. That is... that is a... has been described as a crisis. And I think we all have a duty to do part. But, you know, paramedics are tired. They're seeing this on a regular basis with no hope in sight, it seems.

GLORIA MACARENKO Well, what is your staffing situation like right now?

TC: I would say it's critical right now. We're having significant out of services with no staff to work. In the Lower Mainland, we're seeing up to 20 to 30 ambulances every shift not staffed because of, you know, failing to put paramedics in…. in the... in the seats of the ambulances that we do have. And we're short on dispatchers. We've seen delays to emergency medical dispatchers on the weekend, delayed treatment and transport situations. We're in dire straits right now, and we need the leadership of BCHS to step up and be accountable and help us fix this problem.

GM: That's startling! That's startling to think that 20 to 30 ambulances are sitting idle that could be responding to calls.

TC: Absolutely. So somebody has to pick up those calls. And when you see months like last month, when we see increased overdoses, those paramedics are going from call to call. And it's... it's... it's tough on them.

GM: Troy, you've been at this for three decades, as you point out. Have you ever seen anything so dire?

TC: I would say no, I have not. I’ve been through a lot, as you mentioned, three decades of change. I mean, I went through the early heroin overdose cycles in the 90s. And... but I've never seen all the things you describe as bad as they are right now.

CH: That was Troy Clifford, the Provincial President of the Ambulance, Paramedics, and Dispatchers of BC union, speaking with Gloria Macarenko, host of CBC Vancouver's "On The Coast".

[music: sad piano]

Sri Lanka Ship Burning

Guest: Asha de Vos

CH: The inviting golden beaches of Sri Lanka are now a dispiriting grey. On May 20th, a cargo ship erupted in flames, not far from the port of Colombo. Now, part of the country's coastline is blanketed with huge drifts of dull-coloured, possibly toxic plastic pellets. And local authorities are struggling to clean up what they're calling their worst environmental disaster. Asha de Vos is a marine biologist and the executive director of the marine biology group, Oceanswell. We reached her in Colombo, Sri Lanka.

CO: Asha, I know you have had a chance to survey these affected beaches. What do they look like?

ASHA DE VOS: Yeah, so I was out on the beaches yesterday, the worst affected one, which is directly opposite where the ship caught fire. And, you know, these are beaches that I've gone to before in the past. You know, if you were to imagine a beautiful tropical beach, that's exactly what they look like. But yesterday, when I went there, it was basically a beach littered with these little plastic pellets, some burnt, some unburnt, covering the beach. And to me, the most heartbreaking part was this was after the Navy personnel who had been cleaning those beaches for days. And, you know, it's sort of relentless. Every time they cleaned up, another wave comes in with more plastic. And so it's this never-ending job right now that they're facing.

CO: Wow! And these things are called nurdles. These are these little plastic pellets. How much of this has... is... was on that ship. It's now heading to your beaches. And what are they for?

ADV: From the reports that I've seen, there's supposed to be about 78 metric tons of these nurdles on board. Of course, we don't know what percentage of that was burnt in the fire and what percentage will head towards land. But we do know that there's quite a lot, a high concentration in a relatively small stretch of beach, but also extending as they start travelling around the coastline. So they are small, buoyant pieces of plastic. And basically, they're the foundation of all other plastics. That's what is used to make other plastics, everything from single-use plastics to the more durable stuff that we use.

CO: Good heavens! And now, the... the... you mentioned the Navy personnel who are trying to clean this up. I've seen bulldozers trying to push this around. But those… those personnel are wearing protective gear. So what's mixed in with this? What makes it toxic?

ADV: The thing is, there were chemicals onboard the ship. But the impacts of the chemicals. I spoke to a chemical oceanographer at Scripps in the U.S. and... because obviously, that's not my expertise. And like what she explained is that quite a lot of that chemical will be burnt, and some of it would have gone to the water. But that will dissolve and have more localized impacts. The Navy personnel are wearing protective gear because we are in the middle of a pandemic and currently are... we are in lockdown actually in Sri Lanka. We aren't allowed to leave our houses. So that's why it's just the Navy personnel out there in protective gear trying to take on a mammoth task. And they are working tirelessly.

CO: But local people have been told not to pick up stuff on the beach, not to handle it, not to be there because there is... there was also 25 tons of nitric acid and sodium hydroxide on board as well. Is that hitting your beaches, or do you know where that went?

ADV: From what I can understand, that's probably more localized around the ship's area. As it gets into the water, it can dissolve in the water column, these acids. But it's always better to be safe than sorry. So that's partly why the warnings have been sent out.

CO: What are the expectations? What... what... how much damage will this be doing to marine life off the coast of Sri Lanka?

ADV: We're still trying to figure that out, right? Like, I mean, the incident is still ongoing, so to speak. But it's a case of these nurdles that concentrate chemicals. They adsorb toxic chemicals from the environment. They concentrate them. They start moving along the coast. And we're seeing them dispersed all along our west coast, around the south coast and potentially further afield. So that's something to think about. We'll be finding them in nooks and crannies everywhere. They can be ingested by a lot of species. Most at risk would be small fish that can ingest it, and they can get stuck, obviously, but... in their systems. But others might... are thought to be able to eject from their bodies. But, you know, if they're loaded with toxins, the impact of that, we still don't understand that. That's not just us. I mean, researchers who work on these questions don't really know the answers to things like that. We also, you know, the beaches are covered in plastic right now, particularly the one I've been speaking about, that can cause an increase in the temperature of the beach, which can impact turtle nesting sites. That's... you know, turtle hatchlings, their agenda is based on the temperature at which the eggs are buried. And so, if the temperature of the beach increase too much, we can skew agendas, which is obviously a problem for our species that are, in many cases, endangered. But also, you know, we have to think about the impacts on the fishing communities, it's a livelihood that's stalled right now because we have to assess the situation before they can go out and continue their fishing activities. That impacts them. And in the longer term, of course, the tourism that would be impacted by this. By, you know, these beautiful beaches now covered in pellets. So a massive cleanup operation is necessary. The Navy is really working very hard on that. But these impacts aren't going to go away immediately. We have to think short term, medium and long term.

CO: This... this ship, the MV X-Press Pearl, it was... caught fire on May 20th and was a hell of a job just to put that fire out. But at the same time, apparently, according to interviews, they had known that they had a... a acid leak from one of the containers on board. They had tried to dock in two different places in India and Qatar and were turned away because of what they were carrying and because of this leak. How did this ship, as far as you know, how did this ship end up in your waters?

ADV: To be fair, I can't comment on that because I don't really understand the ins and outs of what happened. I know only as much as you do as well.

CO: And what... how are people in Sri Lanka feeling about that?

ADV: I mean, I suppose in any situation, you know, everyone wants to have answers. So I think that's what's on the ground. People are asking questions, and hopefully, we'll get some answers to figure out exactly what happened.

CO: But there must be a fair bit of outrage among Sri Lankans about, first of all, that this ship, this happened and then the consequences?

ADV: I mean, I can only focus really on the consequences because that's sort of the area that I work in, and that's what people are communicating. So for us, we obviously we're all concerned about the marine environment and what it could mean to our oceans and the species that live in it. I can talk very personally. It's something I've dedicated my life to. And so it is a difficult situation. It's difficult to watch this unfold, but also know that, you know, there's a lot of work to be done. And so that's what we have to prepare ourselves for.

CO: And how is your government responding to this disaster?

ADV: The government authorities have brought together a lot of individuals from universities. They have asked for advice from people like myself who run our own organizations. So they are trying to get the best possible information together to try to strategize and deal with the situation better.

CO: Asha, we'll leave it there. I know you're doing a lot of work and a lot of research, and I appreciate that you'd find time for us. Thank you.

ADV: No problem. Thank you very much.

CH Asha de Vos is a marine biologist and the executive director of the marine biology group, Oceanswell. We reached her in Colombo, Sri Lanka.

[music: tense news-like music]

Woodcarving Wizard's Land Revival

CH: Rolf Heer's home was a significant site for anyone living in, or visiting, the village of Radium, B.C. His "Home of a Thousand Faces" was a towering wooden structure, covered with faces that he hand-carved over the course of more than 40 years. Last summer, Mr. Heer died at the age of 66. And just before his death, his house caught fire -- and destroyed most of his artwork. The community wanted to memorialize the man they remember as their "woodcarving wizard." So the village council came up with a plan to bring life back to his land. Valerie Bracken is the president of the Radium Village Arts and Culture Society -- and she's spearheading that plan.

SOUNDCLIP

VALERIE BRACKEN: He was our famous Radium woodcarver. And he built a home with a lot of his artwork. It was just a fun place for people to visit. And stopping in Radium meant stopping at Rolf's. So he was very iconic in the village of Radium.

CHRIS WALKER: And his home burned down, mostly, in 2018. And I understand some things, some of his art was salvaged. But you met with Rolf before he died to talk about what the future plans were for the property. Can you tell us about that meeting?

VB: Yeah, he posted on social media that he was wanting to sell his home. And he... he passed away of cancer. So his cancer was starting to really take over. And he wanted to sell his home to somebody who would carry on his legacy. I volunteered to go talk to Rolf and see, you know, what he was selling his home for. And as we were talking, he said, well, the chamber wants it? Why don't I just give it to you? And it just goes to show what a generous soul he really was. And then, when it burned down, it was very devastating for Rolf. And then we started talking about plans for, well, why don't we rebuild a park? So those were his wishes. He wanted a park in his memory.

CW: And so you've worked for a couple of architects in Calgary to design this park. Give us a sense of what it will look like?

VB: Val and Rich Bassett volunteered their professional services -- they're landscape architects. And they designed a focal point, which we refer to as the tree house. It has two levels. The upper level, you could have art shows, concerts, you know, music in the park. And on the lower level will be a memory wall of... of Rolf. And it's a covered picnic area as well. It's really cool because what they did was they designed it to have kind of what looks like a wizard hat on top. So, Rolf, if anybody has seen Rolf's, he was, you know, well known for his famous red wizard hat. And then there will be a washroom, there'll be green space and also a little natural play area for kids because Rolf loved children and he loved making children laugh. So there will be a natural play area with an embankment slide coming down the side and going down to the... the tree house.

CW: What do you imagine Rolf would think of this?

VB: He would love it. [chuckle] It is totally Rolf. It's fun, it's, you know, playful, it's whimsical, just like him.

CH: Valerie Bracken is the president of the Radium Village Arts and Culture Society. She was speaking to CBC host Chris Walker today on "Daybreak Kelowna."

[music: jazz]

“Ideas” Promo: Michelangelo's Angst

CH: Tonight on “Ideas”, Michelangelo, the poet. Every year, at least in non-pandemic times, millions of people flock to Florence to admire Michelangelo's sculpture of David. Millions more flock to Rome to admire the frescoes of the Sistine Chapel. Even when he was alive 500 years ago, his work was so celebrated that he became known as "The Divine Michelangelo". But he never felt divine. And he never felt his work was good enough. And over the course of his 88 years, he was tormented by guilt for his desire for, and love of, men -- a torment that he expressed in the more than 300 poems he wrote.

SOUNDCLIP

MAN: [reading a poem in an alternative language]

TRANSLATION: I wish I wanted, Lord, what I don't want. Between my heart and the fire hides a veil of ice, which moderates the fire so that my deeds don't match my pain and makes my page a liar.

JAMES SASLOW: It's a poem about yearning, this endless, intense, never quite satisfied, always delayed gratification. So in the whole poem, Michelangelo is completely melding those two kinds of language, the earthly and the spiritual love. And you move upward from earthly passion and love to divine passion and love. One inspires the other. But he's really saying, I am so afraid of desire because I've been taught that it's sinful, and I have a psychic need to distance myself from the possible overwhelming temptations of desire because the consequences of sin are so dire. One could be damned for these guilty desires.

CH: That last voice you heard was James Saslow, translator of Michelangelo's poetry and art history professor at the City University of New York. You can hear more about Michelangelo's angst tonight on "Ideas", after "As It Happens".

[music: sad guitar]

Chinese Furniture Tariff

Guest: Peter Tielmann

CH: It really puts the "ouch" in "couch". The Canada Border Services Agency has slapped import tariffs on a list of furniture from China and Vietnam. Some of those tariffs run close to 300 percent. And now, retailers are scrambling to redirect orders, before they have to pass the cost on to their customers. But Peter Tielmann says the tariffs are just a way of levelling the playing field for Canadian furniture producers. Mr. Thielmann is the President and CEO of Winnipeg's Palliser Furniture Ltd. That company led the group that filed the original complaint to the Canada Border Services Agency. We reached Peter Tielmann in High Point, North Carolina.

CO: Mr. Tielmann, what is so unfair about these Chinese imports?

PETER TIELMANN: Well, we’re all for fair competition. I want to say that first and foremost. We're not looking for an advantage over... over anybody else. But the unfair part is there's evidence that there is both dumping going on from products made in Vietnam and China, and there’s subsidies by the governments of core materials that go into these products.

CO: And so how long has this been an issue for a company like yours, Winnipeg-based Palliser Furniture?

PT: You know, it's been going on for a long time. I mean, the WTO was signed…. what, in 2003? And that's probably when it started. Around that time, you know, we had..., and I'm talking on the behalf of Palliser right now, not the consortium of companies that submitted the complaint. But we had, you know, six factories, thousands of employees, more than we have now in Canada. And then, now, due to these subsidies and due to this dumping, the Canadian manufacturers have been... have been hurt.

CO: How hurt? I mean, just give us a sense of how much business you lost because of it.

PT: All right. Well, this only a few categories within the... within the furniture segment. Within these categories back then, in 2003, 50 per cent of everything was made in Canada. Today, we're looking at about 18 per cent that's made here.

CO: Wow!

PT: Yeah, so it's a big difference.

CO: OK, so China and Vietnam, they maintain that is not their fault if Canadians can't compete with their lower labour and materials costs. So how do you respond to that?

PT: This is not about labour. We never complained about labour at all. This is about materials that are rooted in commodities that are being subsidized. And there's inherent structure of subsidies there. Take foam, for example. Foam is a large part of what goes into... into seating in upholstered furniture. And foam everywhere around the world has one price. It's a commodity. It's a petroleum-based product. In China, it's half price compared to anywhere else. And then you look at steel. Again, a heavily subsidised segment. Again, steel has one price in most places around the world and China. Again, there, the cost is… we’re looking at significantly lower costs than they are elsewhere. And that's been passed on into the supply chain system. And manufacturers are working with much-reduced cost of materials, and that's where it starts and then it continues on from there. So that's impossible to compete with. I mean, like I said, we’re all for fair... fair... fair trade. But if we... you know, these are clear... clearly, unfair trade practises, which the CBSA agrees with us. We just all we did is as a group, we said we submitted a complaint that we see these subsidies going on there. And then the CBSA that their own research and their own work. And they found that, yes, there are significant subsidies and dumping going on from those countries. And that's why they... they put this preliminary duty of... of that magnitude. And now, the 295 sounds very high. Remember... remember... that's the highest number. There were companies to whom the CBSA reached out --- some collaborated, and others didn't. And the ones who collaborated, they received much lower numbers.

CO: So the CBC, the Canada Border Services Agency, it's imposed these tariffs -- almost 300 per cent. What will change if those tariffs are kept in place?

PT: Well, first of all, like... like I said, that tariff, that... that quantum only applies to a few and likely will not survive. The likely tariff will be somewhere in the 60-70 range. But whatever the number will be, we're looking for an even playing field. So if we have an even playing field, then we... then we can compete. We like being in Canada. We would like to be growing our capacity, not just us, Palliser, but us as an industry, our capacities in Canada to serve Canadians with the quality products we make there. So we would like to bring manufacturing back to Canada and start growing it again. If an even playing field is not made, then the industry may be doomed. It may be... it may go away completely like some other industries have in the past.

CO: But Canadian consumers have got accustomed to having cheap furniture, right? I mean, this stuff they've been able to buy now is going to cost them many times more. So what effect is that going to have, do you think, on Canadian consumers?

PT: Well, in the end, subsidies don't last long-term. I mean, they have a purpose. The purpose is to hurt the local industry so someone else can’t take it once. Once they do what they... what they do, it's going to go back again. So, meanwhile, we have lost an industry and many, many jobs. So from that perspective, I think we need to look at it from a more holistic perspective.

CO: China has a history of hitting back hard. So you think we should brace ourselves for some kind of retaliation?

PT: [chuckling] Well, you know. China joined the WTO, and we're being tough on China for human rights violations. Why can't we be tough on China for trade violations as well? I think it's just fair game. Do we want to just give in and be bullied? And meanwhile, lose industries here? What do you think?

CO: [laughing] All right. Well, we'll see what happens. How many jobs do you think that this might make for furniture making in Canada?

PT: Well, I can... I can tell you we lost thousands of jobs within these years. Palliser alone lost, you know, we reduced thousands of jobs in Canada within this period of time. And then if you add the other factories who are… and manufacturers or part of this, how many it will make? You know, we have to see. But the potential is there, the potential is there to... to build thousands of jobs. I mean, we are... with this with this announcement in place now, we're getting ready to... to reinvest in Canada, and we're getting ready to start... we would like to... to open up new... new plants as early... as early next year already if this takes.

CO: Canadian-made furniture, OK, what a concept. [both laughing]

PT: You know, we've been here for 75 years. We are very committed to Canada. We would love to continue making quality furniture for Canadians in Canada.

CO: All right. We'll be watching, Mr. Tielmann, thank you.

PT: Thank you very much.

CH: Peter Tielmann is the President and CEO of EQ3, and Palliser Furniture Ltd. We reached him in High Point, North Carolina.

[music: orchestral]

BBC Sensors

CH: The system is supposed to work like this: trustworthy sources tell the media things, and the media tell us those things. And, ideally, we trust the media, and we behave accordingly. Take social-distancing guidelines. We know we're supposed to stay two metres apart. We know that because health authorities told news organizations that, and the news organizations told us, and told us again, and have continued to tell us every day for 15 months. Well, I guess not everyone in the UK got the message. For example, one British company apparently didn't trust its employees to understand the two-metre thing. So it issued them "proximity sensors". You put them on, and they sound an alarm if you violate the two-metre rule. Like, "Hey, Emma, about your report" -- beep beep beep -- "oh, blimey. Sorry." But there were problems. One was that one of these sensors overheated to the point where smoke started coming out of it. Another problem was that the sensors were interfering with TV broadcasts. So now, the BBC is reconsidering their use. Oh yeah: the company that's having these problems? Is the BBC. A news organization, which has been sharing social-distancing guidelines for 15 months. But evidently doesn't think its own staff has heard them -- or doesn't trust its own staff to follow them. Well, this technological solution didn't work. So maybe now the BBC will come to its senses -- and take leave of its sensors.

June 3, 2021 Episode Transcript

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