September 16, 2020 Episode Transcript

The AIH Transcript for September 16, 2020

[host]Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden[/host]

CAROL OFF: Hello, I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

CH:  Tonight: 

CO: Smoking gun. Former California Governor Jerry Brown tells us the fires in his state are the direct result of inaction on climate change — and that Canada should get ready for a wave of American climate refugees.

CH: Not in vain. Our guest lost his wife, his kids and his mother in law in the crash of a Boeing 737 Max. Now, a new report from the U.S. Congress is giving the Toronto man hope that their deaths could help change the airline industry.

CO: Dinner will be served... chilled. As restaurant owners wonder how to get through the winter, one restaurateur hopes his customers will warm to the idea of all-season patios in Winnipeg.

CH: Surround sound. A sailor whose boat was encircled and then attacked by orcas off the coast of Spain describes their seemingly coordinated assaults — and the eerie noises that came with it.

CO: A B.I.G. moment. Veteran video director Uncle Ralph McDaniels describes last night's auction in New York, where, among other storied items from hip hop history, Biggie's plastic crown was on the block.

CH: And... getting the show on the road by getting over the snow on the road. New York State announces that successful remote learning means no snow days this school year — a development with chilling implications for a cold-weather tradition. 

CH: "As It Happens", the Wednesday edition. Radio that would take any fort in a storm.

Part one: Jerry Brown fires, Winnipeg winter restaurants, orca attacks

Jerry Brown fires

Guest: Jerry Brown

CH: He knew California would face a climate change reckoning. But Jerry Brown didn't think it would come this soon. The former California governor and long-time lawmaker is now the chair of the California-China Climate Institute and living on a ranch north of Sacramento. Seeing his state on fire has led him to speak out about the crisis — and to look back on what could have been done differently to tackle the climate crisis. We reached Jerry Brown in Williams, California.

CO: Mr. Brown, what have you seen — and felt — of the fires where you are north of Sacramento?

JERRY BROWN: Well, what I feel at this very moment is the bad air, the smoke, the material that is blowing all over our sky and the whole atmosphere. And so the fires came within about seven miles of my ranch where I am today out in the country. We're living here off the grid in an old stagecoach stop. It's a little more smoky right now. It's been this way for almost a month. There are fires on all sides. And so there it is. [chuckling] It makes it very difficult to function because to go out and breathe in this air, it has chemicals.

CO: And I can hear it in your voice. I mean, everyone we have interviewed in your state has had that scratchy sound. How is it affecting you physically?

JB: I feel fine. My wife gets a little depressed by it because she's a runner. And you can't really run this kind of weather. So it quite a vivid display of the power of nature and what we can expect in increasing doses over the next few decades. And that's really the big takeaway. It's not just what's happening now, which is horrible enough, but that because of the continuing emission of billions and billions of tonnes throughout the world of CO2 and other greenhouse gases, it's going to get worse. So all around what has been predicted for 20 years is now coming home. The chickens are coming home to roost.

CO: And I want to talk about responsibility for that, because, as you know, well, you presided over the state as governor for two terms. This is a state for those who visited there was will find that in your cities, you have a vast urban sprawl and freeways choked with commuters, big air-conditioned houses. How much responsibility if you're talking about climate change being a major cause of this or fuel for this how much responsibility do people in the state have to accept?

JB: One hundred per cent, not just the state, all over the planet. But were a part of that seven-point-seven billion. The whole industrial process that creates our well-being has the dark side that it is radically altering the climate.

CO: Right.

JB: And that's the way it is. And it's California, yes. And our lifestyle, yes. But it's also the failure of the leaders of the world. And Canada for years was a climate denier of your previous premier there. And America now is going in a horrible direction with Trump. And even in China, where they're trying to meet the Paris Accord, they're building new coal plants all the time.

CO: Right. But, sir, you were one of those leaders. As your tenure as governor and lawmaker, do you feel there was more that you could have done — more that you should have done — to prevent this day from coming?

JB: No. I did everything humanly possible. In fact, most people said I did too much. Now, was it enough? No, it's not enough. But I'm tell you, as a guy who's been around the political world for 50 years, I pushed the politicians to the limit. The fact is, the political class in America — with maybe a 20 per cent exception — does not want to make the hard decisions because they cost money and they require a price on carbon and they require regulations that constrain the way we're functioning today.

CO: You know that President Trump insists these fires are created — are fueled — by bad forest management in your own state, does he have a point?

JB: Yes, he has a very good point. But I will have to say it's his responsibility in the first instance because the federal government owns 60 per cent of the forest in California. But, yes, as governor, that's something we dindn't do enough of. Yeah, there's a lot of culpability to go around.

CO: There is a lot of support also for Donald Trump when he says what he believes is that that climate change is not the cause of this. That he has said in recent days and on the coast that it's going to get cooler. Just watch. He says he doesn't think science knows what's going to happen. A lot of people believe in what he's saying, in California support that. So how do you turn this around if there is that level of climate change skepticism?

JB: Well, that's a good question. We may not turn it around. Hopefully, the first sign of how we're doing is whether or not Trump is defeated. That would be the first step. By the way, if he says things are going to get cooler, he's right because winter's coming. But if he means that we're not going to have these heat cycles driven by climate change, then, of course, he's wrong. And what the tragedy here is that the wealth that we enjoy as human beings has taken on an annual basis, 40 billion tonnes of CO2 and greenhouse gases. And we're increasing, not decreasing. So we need some radical change, and it has to be everywhere. And that's going to take an awakening that hasn't yet occurred. In fact, I would say these fires have done more to alert Americans to the reality and danger of global warming than anything else in my lifetime.

CO: A lot of people in your state are talking about whether they should leave, whether this was the right place for them to live, because they're now understanding this is going to be possibly an annual event. What do you say to those who believe they should leave? Have you considered it?

JB: Well, my wife reminds me that her grandmother was born in Canada, and that we ought to be looking for some property. Because if this smoke doesn't clear, she certainly doesn't think it's livable. So I would say that's a real possibility. Because Canada is not letting Americans in. So we'll have to solve that problem if you want to have a little migration from California [chuckling], which you may not want.

CO: But you understand people might want to leave your state?

JB: Oh yeah, they are leaving.

CO: And when might we see you and your wife immigrate to Canada?

JB: I don't know that. My wife, she's a runner. She does not like this bad air. And by the way, from the climate projections, California and the west in America is going to burn. Canada is going to have a lot of nice spots. It's going to have the water. So you better be on your guard because I think you've got millions of people that may be headed your way.

CO: Well, you might tell them that we have had some devastating fires in recent years and that people in the cities of Canada and the west coast are saying they can't breathe either because of the fires in the U.S. So there's not many places to run at this point. But you think people will still be coming to Canada?

JB: Oh yeah, well, look, life is migration. The people who came to North America 14, 15-thousand years ago across that ice bridge, they're on the move. And human beings never stop.

CO: We will leave it there. Mr. Brown, thank you.

JB: Thank you very much. I enjoyed this.

CH: Jerry Brown is the former governor of California. We reached him in Williams, California. You can find more on this story on our web page at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Ambient]

Winnipeg winter resturants

Guest: Mark Turner

CH: If you live somewhere where it snows for months on end, you might already be dreading how isolating it could be living through the winter during a pandemic. And for restaurant owners across Canada, cold weather blows in a whole host of other concerns as well. Patio service has been essential as diners have returned to restaurants. So some in the industry are wondering how they're going to cope as the weather gets nasty. Mark Turner is the owner of the Amsterdam Tea Room & Bar in Winnipeg. He must close his patio after next month. But he's hoping to convince people in his city that they should eat on patios year-round. We reached Mr. Turner in Winnipeg. 

CO: Mark, can you just explain how you envision a patio in a restaurant in Winnipeg in the winter?

MARK TURNER: Yes, like a winter patio in Winnipeg, it's very much kind of like I've been thinking about this for the last year or so, is to have like a covered patio so people can sit out if it rains or if it snows. But also with heat lamps as well.

CO: [chuckling] So do you see them huddled together under blankets?

MT: Yeah, actually, funnily enough, when we first opened the patio, we did have customer blankets that people would like wrap up in. And we do like obviously like tea, coffee, but we do like hot boozy teas and hot cocktails as well. So then people would just kind of wrap up and then haven like nice stews and have that kind of cozy atmosphere, [CO chuckles] which obviously it can be tough when it's like minus-30, Minus-40. 

CO: Oh yeah!

MT: But when we drop to like minus-10, minus-15 and there's no wind, it's beautiful outside.

CO: Okay. But I know that Winnipeggers have to forget how brutally cold it is in the winter [laughing]; otherwise, they couldn't continue. So are you just having a lapse of memory as to what it's really like when you're faced with a Winnipeg winter?

CO: Oh yeah!

MT: [chuckling] not at all, actually. And I remember my first year here because I moved here six years ago. I was chatting my cousin. And I remember the first time it went down to minus-10, minus-12, and everyone was like, this is freezing, this is really cold. But then it goes down to minus-30, minus-40, [CO cuckles] and when the weather goes back to minus-10, everyone was like, this is beautiful. It's so warm outside. Everyone's got T-shirts on. It's not quite T-shirts, but you know what I mean?

CO: Oh yeah!

MT: And I think now, especially with the pandemic, and a lot of people still reluctant to come and dine inside. So people are looking for more reasons to still have that restaurant experience but be outside. So if we can provide them with an environment where they're comfortable, then I think it's definitely a good time that people are starting to come around and a great idea to push the outdoor winter patio.

CO: But officials have raised the potential safety issues with the idea, haven't they? That includes concerns that the heat lamps could be a fire hazard on semi-enclosed patios. Are you concerned about that?

MT: Not for the route I want to go down. I don't want to use propane, like, kind of flame tanks. I mean, I've seen I'm from Glasgow in Scotland originally, and I've done a lot of travel and living in other places in Europe. And what you see a lot of is tented or like umbrellaed areas. And they use these electric heat lamps that are on timers switches as well. So the customer would press the switch to give them, like, 30 minutes of heat so there's like no power wasted. And then these ones are, like, a lot more secure and safe. And obviously, we would work to, like, city code, employ qualified electricians to set everything up. I don't think I've got time to set this up this year, but this is my long-term goals.

CO: Now, you know that this is, at this point, not going to happen according to the city — that the permanent patios like yours have to close by the end of next month. And the city has provided restaurants with more flexibility during the pandemic. But how hopeful are you that you would actually be allowed to have a winter patio in Winnipeg?

MT: I'm always positive. Like, I mean, change is good as long as it's done, like, in the right way. And like you said, with the safety measures in place, I don't think this is going to happen overnight. It's something that actually, before it came to light on the news, it's something I've been thinking about. And I was going to start approaching the city this year as well. Like I said, I really don't think this is going to happen this year. But it's something that I'm definitely gonna keep campaigning towards and keep pushing over the years.

CO: But, I mean, there's so many questions that you're going to have to try and solve, not least among them, that even if you had enough of an enclosed space with this heat and everyone huddled together under blankets, I mean, there's still the issue of how do you make sure that this is COVID-free? Or how do you prevent people from from getting too close to each other?

MT: With our patios, we actually built dividers. And then we've got enough distance in the middle that they're more than two metres apart. We've been actually very busy since we reopened in at the end of July because people feel safe in our patio because they are divided. And then we still have all of our cleaning measures in place as well. So like sanitizing each booth between customers, adhering strictly to the Manitoba Health guidelines as well. So I'm not worried about my customers being protected once we have the heat lamps in and everything else.

CO: Without having the patio, without being able to do this, how bad do you think the winter is going to be for your business?

MT: It's seriously going to impact the business. The patio, right now with our reduced capacity inside, the patio, makes up 70 per cent of our revenue. So it's something that obviously we're concerned about, and we're worried about. And we're, like, trying to think of, just like every other small business like myself, is trying to think of other ways and other revenue streams to bring people in or bring our food and our drinks to the public.

CO: Well, I'm sure you have good food and good drinks, but I guess what you have to rely on is the place, knowing that Winnipeggers are a spirited bunch who laugh in the face of minus-50 with windchill. [chuckling] So maybe you'll be able to lure them into the patio and with this idea of a patio in the winter in Winnipeg.

MT: Yep, lovely. And I have all the confidence of faith in Winnipeg. I love the people, and that's why I moved here.

CO: All right. Good to hear. Mark, thanks. 

MT: Lovely. Thank you very much. 

CO: Bye.

CH: Mark Turner is the owner of the Amsterdam Tea Room & Bar in Winnipeg. A spokesperson for the city told CBC it is exploring the option of all-weather patios, and considering what the requirements would be. 

[Music: Spanish guitar]

Orca attacks

Guest: Victoria Morris

CH: If you're sailing the ocean, there are obvious things to worry about — the height of the waves, or abrupt weather changes. But you tend not to worry about orcas. Because orcas are social, curious and gentle. Except when they're not. Some sailors along the Spanish and Portuguese coasts report that their boats have been attacked by orcas. And scientists don't know why. Victoria Morris is an avid sailor who's eager to understand what's going on. Because she was crewing a 14-metre sailboat weeks ago when it was set upon by nine orcas. They rammed it, damaged it and left it adrift in the Strait of Gibraltar. We reached Victoria Morris, back on the water.

CO: Victoria, I understand that you are just heading into the Strait of Gibraltar, in a gale. But you are heading to the very place where you encountered these orcas. Are you seeing any orcas today?

VICTORIA MORRIS: I'm going to hope not. But we possibly could. We're actually right now, probably exactly where we were getting attacked, actually. And it was about exactly the same time as well. [chuckling]

CO: So you say you hope not, but when you encountered them before, initially, you were quite intrigued. It was lovely to see the orcas, I understand?

VM: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've encountered them quite a lot in New Zealand. And they've always been really friendly. But they spent about five, ten minutes being lovely and playing around, and that quickly changed.

CO: Changed to what? Can you describe what the orcas did?

VM: They just started almost surrounding us in a circle, and coming to the rudder and the keel, and they started ramming the keel. And you could hear them scratching it, which we now know they were biting it with their teeth. And you could hear them on the rudder, and obviously, they were spinning the boat around. We had our autopilot, which disengaged as well. So they really just were going for us.

CO: And at one point, you had to contemplate abandoning ship?

VM: Yes, yes, so there's a possibility that the boat would have capsized. So we had to go down, get our grab bag ready and get the raft ready if we were to have to use that.

CO: When you went down below, you got a sense of the sound. Describe what that was like?

VM: It was like a whistle, like a very, very loud whistle. And there was lots of them, maybe about four or five of them doing that at the same time. And it was just so loud. There were suffers down there trying to get everything ready. And we couldn't even hear each other talk.

CO: Did you feel that it was coordinated?

VM: Yeah, yeah, definitely. [chuckling] I actually I said it was orca-strated. I said it a bit of a pun at the time, and it's been used everywhere, actually. [chuckling]

CO: You sent a mayday. How did they respond when you said that you were being attacked by orcas?

VM: It was almost like they didn't believe us at first. They asked us to repeat it quite a few times. We're like, yeah, currently still under attack.

CO: When you were able to get the boat out of the water to take a look at the damage, what did you see?

VM: There was about two-thirds of the rudder missing, and about one-half of the sandwich. And the keel was full of scratches and bite marks all over it.

CO: So nobody had any doubt as to what had happened after they could see the keel and the rudder?

VM: Yeah, it was completely obvious. But, I mean, even when we took it out, all the people around us were just so gobsmacked. We couldn't believe what had happened, really.

CO: You now know that you were not the only one in that area that had an orca attack, that there are several boats that had the same experience. What are you learning as to why the orcas were doing this?

VM: It's hard to say because, I mean, even the scientists who study the orcas in Gibraltar, and have for years, are still completely baffled and still have no idea. I think since all of this global pandemic has gone on, there's just not been that much traffic, and they've almost maybe gotten used to that. And with recently things opening up and there being a lot more traffic and noise, maybe they were just used to having it almost to themselves and there being not so many fishing boats, because the fishermen have been known to attack the orcas 'cause the orca is trying to get the tuna from their boats.

CO: These are endangered species. This pod of orcas in the Gibraltar Strait, there's only about 50 of them left. And so they have been struggling to survive. Is there any theories among the whale experts that the orcas are are angry? I mean, I don't want to anthropomorphize this, but are they attacking because they're furious for the sound and the competition for food?

VM: I mean, it's very possible. I mean, they do have the capacity to be angry. And they're very intelligent creatures. But if that is true, then, you know, something needs to be done. I think it's as bad as it is all these attacks have been happening. In a way, it's also a good thing because it's turned the spotlight on the fact that there is a problem, you know? Something has changed that's causing them to do it.

CO: They're sending a message.

VM: Yeah. Yeah.

CO: The reports of what's happened to that pod that so many of the mothers have lost their calves, their babies, they have sustained tremendous injuries because, as you mentioned, the fishermen don't want them there. And, I guess, one of the biggest problems is sports fishing that will actually do damage to them quite, quite severely when they come through. So they're fighting in so many fronts, aren't they?

VM: Yeah, definitely. There was two babies in the group that attacked us. And I think, especially when they got young ones with them, they will definitely be way more protective and way more aggressive. So anything that could be a threat to them.

CO: Are you hearing anything about what you're saying, that there needs to be more done to protect these whales, that if they are sending a message, that that one should heed that message?

VM: I just think there's one conservation group that I think are trying to put forward something to try and limit the amount of noise and traffic in the straits. But, I mean, it's such a major shipping lane. It's the main way to get into the Mediterranean, you know? So to limit how much traffic is going on there, it's going to be almost impossible.

CO: Well, I'll let you go. I know you're in a gale, and you probably need to focus on that, Victoria. But I appreciate that you'd find time for us. Thanks.

VM: No problem. Thank you.

CH: We reached sailor Victoria Morris as she was passing the same spot in the Strait of Gibraltar where her boat was attacked by orcas this summer. For more on this story — and some pretty striking photos — set your sails for our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Indie rock]

COVID no more snow days 

REPORTER: Now, New York City school students, they are getting a break today, school is closed for the day, but for those -- 

REPORTER TWO: Those windchills into the double digits below zero. There is the possibility that some schools could be closed tomorrow. The only problem --

REPORTER THREE: And as the wild weather approaches, many are asking, will there be a snow day?

REPORTER FOUR: Today marked the first snow day of the season for most schools in the area.

REPORTER FIVE: At the very worse, many school districts across western New York are preparing as well. And they made that call to close early in anticipation of the big storm.

CH: As an adult, you might feel a mild wash of relief when a meeting is postponed. Or if they call off your partner's uncle's birthday party. But these grown-up feelings of reprieve are nothing compared to the heart-swelling, eye-watering ecstasy kids feel when school is cancelled for a snow day. Snowball fights, snow forts, sledding — what are you going to do? I  mean, what aren't you going to do?! Well, if you're a student in New York State, I'll tell you what you aren't going to do this winter. You aren't going to have snow days. 

OFFICIAL: February 27th, 2020 could go down as a day in Niagara Falls infamy as the last called snow day.

CH: That's a school official, in a report on Western New York's WGRZ-TV. Addressing yet another of the garbage life changes visited upon us by COVID-19: because all students there can apparently learn remotely, there will be no snow days in the whole state of New York this school year. Or, as New York Education Department spokesperson Nathaniel Styer soullessly intoned, "We are utilizing all of the lessons learned from remote schooling this spring to maximize our students' instructional time." And this may have ramifications far beyond New York State. During the pandemic, school boards all over the U.S. and Canada have relied on remote learning. Which could mean the end of a centuries-old tradition — snowily but surely. 

737 Max report

Guest: Paul Njoroge

CH: Three-hundred and forty-six people died because of a flaw in the Boeing 737 Max. Three-hundred and forty-six people whose families are still mourning for them. Now, a report out of Washington is condemning both Boeing and U.S. regulators for the two crashes that took their lives. The report by Democrats on the Congressional Transportation Committee says the fatal crashes were the result of design flaws by the company, a failure to fix those flaws, and a severe lack of government oversight. Paul Njoroge lost his family in the Ethiopian Airlines 737 Max crash — his wife Caroline, his children, Rubi, Kelli and Ryan, and his mother-in-law, Ann. He is one of several family members suing Boeing. We reached him in Toronto.

CO: Paul, the head of the committee that wrote this scathing report, Peter DeFazio. He said that, quote, This is a tragedy that never should have happened. It could have been prevented. What did you think when you heard that?

PAUL NJOROGE: Well, it's not something new to me. It shouldn't be new to the public as well. We know that the crashes were preventable. Obviously, the report from the House committee confirms that even the crash of Lion Air Flight 610 was preventable. And that is appalling. It is appalling to know that my family died because of the gross negligence by Boeing — as well the lack of oversight by the FAA.

CO: I want to ask you about that, because the first crash, it was in 2018. That was out of Jakarta. That was the Lion Air flight. If there had been a review, if they had recognized what was wrong, the flaws in that craft, in that airplane, how would things have been different for you? What what do you think would have happened to change things that have occurred in your own life?

PN: The sad thing is that we know that principals within Boeing, they knew that their plane had flaws in the design. And they couldn't bring themselves to a point where they could ground the plane. You know, at the end of the day, what they wanted to do was to maximize on profits. So they knew that. And as the public, we were not informed at that time. If I was an informed person, I could not have put my family — or my entire family — in a plane that I knew, or maybe not a Boeing plane. That's not something that I would have done. If they were keen or not on these, then they would have grounded the plane before this happened.

CO: And if they had done that, if they had done what they should have done, your family would still be alive?

PN: Yes. Two summers, two summers I have been alone. And I tell you that my mind is always in Ethiopia. The day never leaves my mind. And, you know, the thought of what my wife and my children went through, that is something that keeps recurring in my sleep. And that, you know, brings this suffocation, you know, the suffocation, the pounding of the heart. It's not something that goes away. You know, it's something that I have to carry with me as I move forward in life.

CO: You lost your wife, Caroline. Your kids, baby Rubi; Kelli, who was four; Ryan, who was six.

PN: And my mom-in-law.

CO: And your mother-in-law, your wife's mother. You told this committee that's reported, they were deeply moved by your testimony. You told them what you imagine was happening in those final minutes of their lives. Can you tell us what you told the committee that moved them so much?

PN: You know, I keep thinking about the realization in my wife's mind that, you know, this plane is going to crash. And, you know, she's going to lose a life — along with our three children, her mom. You know, the terror that she must have experienced. You know, my son, Ryan, He was very he was very curious. And, you know, seen all that happening, he must have asked his mom so many questions. He would ask me those questions if I was there, you know? A day never passes without me thinking that I should have been with them, you know, to answer those questions, to hold them as we go down. We should have gone down together.

CO: Your story that you told the committee is the beginning of this report. And the testimony in front of these members of Congress, they were weeping, as you told them, what had happened and what your life is like in the absence of your family. What effect do you think you had on this final document?

PN: I know I mentioned, you know, my thoughts about Boeing. And, you know, just being concerned about making money at the expense of safety. I talked about the regulatory capture of the FAA by Boeing. And, you know, I do believe that the committee has done an intensive investigation uncovering all these issues. This report that was done by the committee is for the people. It's for them to see that a Boeing plane will kill again.

CO: We know that in this report — and it's important to note that it's not just Boeing that has to wear the responsibility — the Federal Aviation Authority, which was supposed to be regulating this, also takes a lot of criticism in this report. At the same time, the FAA is saying that these this plane — the 737 Max — is about to be cleared to fly again as soon as this winter, perhaps. How does that sit with you that the 737 Max would take flight again?

PN: In light of this report, what should be happening at this moment is the production, the recertification process and the ungrounding process of the 737 Max should stop, up until Boeing is able to revamp its corporate governance. And up until the FAA recaptures its authority. As long as there is these gaps in internal validation processes, and as long as we have employees within Boeing, senior engineers, as long as we have the FAA administrator defending their actions and defending their internal procedures, I do believe that we are going to have another garbage-in, garbage-out case.

CO: Your testimony, your story, your willingness to speak about this, as painful as it is, has obviously had a large effect on what happened in this hearing and also people's understanding of what this plane did and what this story did to so many lives. Does that help you cope at all that you know that you have been able to have such an effect?

PN: My family — my wife and my children — their lives were just lost, you know, instantly. You know, their death should not be in vain. You know, I hope that my testimony — and I hope that myself and other families of the other victims coming out — I hope that it's going to improve aviation safety. You know, at the end of the day, I still live in desolation and pain. But if us being strong and if myself being strong, if it changes anything, I'm just happy for the people of the world.

CO: And you're doing that for your wife and kids?

PN: I'm doing this for my wife and my kids, yes.

CO: And your mother-in-law.

PN: Yes.

CO: Paul, I really appreciate that you would share this with us. I'm so sorry for what you're going through and how painful it must be. But I appreciate your strength. Thank you.

PN: Thank you very much, Carol. 

CO: Bye.

PN: All right, bye.

CH: Paul Njoroge's family died in the Ethiopian Airlines crash in March 2019. He was in Toronto. In a statement, Boeing said it had learned lessons from that crash ,and the Lion Air crash of 2018, and it is working hard to strengthen safety.

[Music: Lullaby]

European State of the Union

CH: A deal's a deal. That was Ursula Von der Leyen's forceful message today — directed, it would seem, at the U.K.'s Prime Minister, Boris Johnson. The President of the European Commission delivered her first State of the Union address, outlining her vision for the future of the European Union. A future that will obviously not include the United Kingdom. This week, Prime Minister Boris Johnson and his government passed a so-called "safety net" bill that would override parts of the already-agreed-upon, legally binding Brexit deal, signed back in January with the EU. And even members of Mr. Johnson's own government have acknowledged the bill violates international law. Which doesn't sit right with President Von der Leyen. Here's part of her speech today.

URSULA VON DER LEYEN: This withdrawal agreement took three years to negotiate. And we worked relentlessly on it, line by line, word by word. And together, we succeeded. And the result guarantees our citizens' rights, financial interests, the integrity of the single market, and crucially, the Good Friday Agreement and the European Union and the U.K. jointly agreed it was the best and only way for ensuring peace on the island of Ireland. And we will never backtrack on that. And this agreement has been ratified by this House and by the House of Commons. It cannot be unilaterally changed, disregarded or disapplied. [clapping in the background] This is a matter of law and trust and good faith. I remind you of the words of Margaret Thatcher, I quote, Britain does not break treaties. It would be bad for Britain, bad for relations with the rest of the world and bad for any future treaty on trade, end of quote. This was true then, and this is true today.

CH: That was European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen delivering her first State of the Union speech today. 

[Music: Orchestral]

Hip-hop auction

Guest: Ralph McDaniels 

CH: When photographer Barron Claiborne was hired to shoot The Notorious B.I.G. for the cover of "Rap Pages" magazine in 199, he had a clear vision: Biggie was the king of New York, and the king of rap — so Biggie should wear a crown. Now, that plastic crown — originally purchased for a reported six dollars — has sold for 594-thousand dollars U.S. It's one of an astonishing number of items from throughout hip-hop history that were up for auction last night at Sotheby's. All told, the first-of-its-kind bidding brought in a cool two million dollars. And it was a pretty cool moment for Ralph McDaniels. Mr. McDaniels — better known as Uncle Ralph McDaniels — is a veteran music video director who has worked with the likes of Nas and the Wu-Tang Clan. He also runs the Queens Public Library Foundation's hip-hop programming — which will benefit from proceeds of last night's auction. We reached Mr. McDaniels in New York City. 

CO: Uncle Ralph McDaniels, which item were you most excited to see on the auction block last night?

RALPH MCDANIELS: Well, of course, I had my original Wu Tang Clan jacket, and my Nike 25th anniversary. So between my wife and my daughter, they were all cheering as people bid for it. [laughing] But I was excited to see the crown — Biggie's crown.

CO: And so what did your jacket sell for?

RM: My jacket sold for ten-thousand, [CO chuckles] and my 25th anniversary sneaker sold for Five-thousand.

CO: And and tell us about the background of the jacket. what's its meaning to you?

RM: So I started this program in New York City in the early '80s called Video Music Box. And I started working with the Wu Tang Clan, actually before they were Wu Tang Clan. And so I was like a videographer for them. I directed a bunch of their early videos. I directed a song called "Cream" for them. And so I was part of the family. So when they started, you know, like, hey, how can we take care of the people that are part of the crew? They made these jackets. And they were limited to the members of the group and a couple of people from the record company. And those is one of the jackets, yeah.

CO: Wow! And so just maybe give us a sense of what the collection was like? I mean, all this stuff from hip-hop that just decades of it, right? So what does it tell you about that era? What does it say about the music?

RM: Well, it gives hip-hop, it gives it a benchmark on the value of some of these things. Like, this is the first time something like this has happened. So, you know, you've had rock n roll auctions and you might have had other, you know, fine art and things like that. But from a musical genre, it was the first time for hip hop. And that's awesome, because we knew it had value. We just didn't know what the value was.

CO: It just seems like such an irony when you think of the Sotheby's, which is a bit, I don't know, maybe a bit snooty. [warm chuckle]

RM: Exactly.

CO: A bit high-art and high-brow. And to see that that history, not just music, it's a culture, it's a way of thinking and living. To see it all together like that in bits and pieces must have been quite extraordinary?

RM: Yes, very extraordinary. You know, hip-hop has become something that started in the inner cities and now has grown, you know, everywhere in the world. I mean, Canada, for example, you have you guys have the number one rapper, Drake, you know, in the world. And, you know, so this music has gone so far and evolved from how it was in the late-70s, you know, in the South Bronx, where there were, you know, burnt down buildings and it just was a lost cause. And out of that rumble and fire and dust came this art form called hip-hop. And now here it is 47 years later, and it's pretty awesome.

CO: What else was there? What else did you recognize of the material that was in the room?

RM: We had the Fab Five Freddy — who was the host of a show on MTV — his ring, a diamond ring that he used to wear on the show, a Jean Michel Basquiat vinyl record that he did the album cover for, which was very rare. And there was a wall of what they call the "Wall of Boom", which were all of the boomboxes from the '80s. And this guy named Ross One collected all of these boomboxes and made it into one wall, which is, you know, he must have had a pretty big house to put this in. [both chuckle] And then artwork and photos from Rakim and Tupac and Biggie and other hip-hop pioneers.

CO: The Tupac contribution is really touching, isn't it? Because these are love letters written by him when he was in high school.

RM: Yes. Yes. And, you know, and to hear some of his songs and the words and, you know, the emotions that he put into it, and those same emotions in those letters that he wrote to his, you know, 16-year-0old girlfriend at the time, you know, it was pretty awesome.

CO: Somebody else wrote about it that it seems at this time when, with Black Lives Matter, just this awareness of the sort of the lives of Black men in your country, the vulnerability of those men, and that people reflecting on that Tupac and Biggie were both shot dead within months of each other in the '90s. And that hip-hop does speak to that vulnerability. And perhaps that's part of the reason why this was of such interest to people. Do you think that's possible?

RM: Absolutely. I think that in the late '80s, there was a group called NWA, ad Ice Cube and Dr. Dre were part of that group. And they talked about, you know, straight, Straight Outta Compton, Compton is a city and in California where they came from. And they talked about police brutality, and the things that were going on in their community. And we couldn't picture this. I'm from the East Coast. I always thought that California was just palm trees and, you know, and oceans and, you know, the Beach Boys, you know? [CO chuckles] But there was there was a underlining thing that was happening in California. And we saw it with Rodney King. And NWA talked about it in the record. So hip hop has always been kind of the CNN or to the street, you know, like it's always been this kind of voice of the street. And it comes out of the hip-hop music first, and we hear about it. And then, all of a sudden, it hits the mainstream and folks say, hey, I heard, you know, my favourite rapper talking about that ten years ago. And just the fact of, you know, that hip hop is, you know, it's for everyone. But it started off in Black communities and Latino communities. And now, it is serving the world with the art and what it was made for, to be loved. And, you know, and that's part of what Black Lives Matter is all about as well.

CO: And you know what? The money from this action. And I think part of it is going to charity. Do you know anything about that?

RM: Yes. So I work with, there's a number of charities. I can tell you about the one that I work with, the Queens Public Library. So about five years ago, I started doing hip hop programs for young people, first of all, to get them off the street and to get them involved and to bring them to the library, which, you know, they might have to come there every once in a while to do some homework. But I wanted to do other things so we can engage them and just keep them out of trouble. And so we started getting folks coming. You know, 50 kids show up to do a deejay 101 with, you know, one of their favourite deejays. And they wanted to learn how to deejay, or we did a book talk with L.L. Cool J. Or, you know, people came in and they never got the chance to meet some of these artists. Now they got the chance to meet 'em, take a picture with 'em, hear 'em talk about them themselves growing up and see the parallels. So a part of the money from the Sotheby's auction is going to go to those programs, so that we can continue those programs. And, you know, pay the, you know, the deejay's and get equipment and have a safe space for young people to come in and be part of what we do at Queens Public Library.

CO: That's just great. Uncle Ralph McDaniels, it's good to talk to you. Thank you.

RM Awesome. Thank you, Carol. 

CO: Bye. 

RM: Bye-bye.

CH: Ralph McDaniels is a music video director who also runs the Queens Public Library Foundation's Hip Hop programming. We reached him in New York City.

[Music: Ambient]

Part three: Caribou extinct, UN Venezuela report, cormorant cull

Caribou extinct

Guest: Carolyn Campbell

CH: Earlier this month, Parks Canada quietly issued an online statement — that the Maligne caribou herd in Jasper National Park is believed to be locally extinct. The herd hadn't been seen since 2018, and even back then, there were just a few members left.  Now there are concerns for the survival of two other caribou herds in the park, whose numbers are so small, their populations can no longer grow. Carolyn Campbell is a conservation specialist focused on caribou with the Alberta Wilderness Association. We reached Ms. Campbell in Calgary. 

CO: Ms. Campbell, just how many caribou are left in these herds in Jasper National Park?

CAROLYN CAMPBELL: Unfortunately, we learned officially that in one of the populations, the Maligne, there are no caribou left. They've officially been declared extirpated. You know, they've died off. And there are only very small populations left in the other two. There's less than 45 in the Tonquin Valley herd and less than 15 in the Brazeau. But the real kicker is the breeding females. These two remaining groups have ten or fewer in each herds. And that means they can't grow. And they're very likely to dwindle down to nothing because of, you know, random setbacks.

CO: What happened to the Maligne Cariboo herd?

You know, as recently as the late '90s, there were over about 70 animals. But the problem with the Maligne was that they were in a popular area for tourists. And in 2002, the superintendent in Jasper reviewed all the evidence and made the call that we needed to close the winter road. And that's because plowed roads and cross-country ski trails serve as a path for wolves to get up and into caribou country. In about 2016, Parks Canada finally rolled back some cross-country ski access, by which time the Maligne herd was only a few animals. They could not recover from that. It was too little, too late.

CO: You've said elsewhere that the reason why the herd — the Maligne — have disappeared is because Parks Canada catering to the recreation desires of a few above the habitat needs of endangered wildlife. Do you want to expand on that?

CC: We've known that these caribou are in trouble, and that access trails from skiing, from ski hills, from plowed roads really allow wolves to get up into caribou country. They can't tolerate predation pressures from wolves. Their strategy is to avoid overlap. And we human beings are the resilient species. We need to be managing parks for the ecological needs of species to carry on, especially sensitive species. And so we were very appreciative when Parks finally rolled back some access into these areas. But it was too little, too late.

CO: Are there advantages, though, for animals like the caribou that the parks exist? I mean, does the management of that of those areas actually help the animals?

CC: Well, absolutely, yes. The thing about these Caribou in Jasper Park is they're called Mountain Caribou, but they need to migrate in the winter to secure foothills areas. And unfortunately, in the early 20th century, we destroyed a lot of those and kept on going as far as their suitability for caribou. So caribou were once distributed throughout southern Canadian mountains, B.C., Alberta and in foothills right down to Idaho. But by the mid-to-late 20th century, we had dams, mines, roads, so many caribou there died off or stopped migrating. And even though the winter conditions in the parks were poorer than what they were adapted to, those caribou probably survived far longer than they would have without the parks. So, yes, protected areas have a really vital role to play.

CO: And what's the importance, I mean, the caribou for themselves, you are talking about protecting them, but what role do they play in the ecosystem of a place like Jasper?

CC: Yeah, caribou has evolved to reproduce slowly. And they need to avoid overlap with their predators. And they do that by choosing areas that other animals find it difficult to navigate over. So if caribou numbers are spiralling down, it tells us that we're fragmenting our older growth forests and our alpine areas. These are indicator species or umbrella species if you will. Is caribou have a future because of secure habitat that benefits species like threatened native fish or birds that need older forests or species that rely on wetlands or alpine areas being intact.

CO: Now, you have said that population is dwindling. A large part of the problem is that there are so few females left in these herds. So is it possible to bring in caribou from someplace else? Is it possible to augment their numbers with with importing Caribou?

CC: Parks Canada appears to have been studying this since about 2014. It appears from the hints that we've got, what they're looking at is something called conservation breeding, which means they would take some of those jaspar populations and for a relatively short time, you know, maybe ten, maybe 20 years, they would grow that population in a sense. So it wouldn't be wild for that generation, but it would just be that boost to the populations. And then they could dismantle that infrastructure. Those caribou numbers would would be back in their natural ranges. They would be able to survive and recover. You know, the problem is when you get these low numbers of breeding females now, they just can't recover from things like poor weather or, you know, setbacks with too many males being born one year and not enough females. What they need now is that boost.

CC: You have been talking about and campaigning on behalf of the caribou for a long time. It matters a lot to you. What is it about these animals that mean so much to you personally?

CC: Caribou are superbly adapted for our northern forests and alpine areas. They have wide hooves and they can navigate through wetlands or across snowfields that other animals can't. They're beautiful. They're gentle. I was privileged to see caribou from the Tonquin herd in Jasper a couple of times when I was in hiking with friends in the summer months. And, you know, you see a a bull caribou with the big antlers that they grow and then shed every year walking silently near you. And that's a real privilege. They leave such an impact on you. 

CO: Wonderful creatures. Ms. Campbell, thank you.

CC: Thank you so much, Carol.

CH: Carolyn Campbell is a caribou conservation specialist with the Alberta Wilderness Association. She spoke to us from Calgary.

[Music: Folksy guitar]

UN Venezuela report

Guest: Paul Seils 

CH: They're serious charges against the government of Venezuela. And a UN-backed mission says it has the proof. In a report issued today, the government of Nicolas Maduro is accused of committing crimes against humanity. The mission investigated over 200 cases of executions, disappearances and torture. And the authors say the orders to commit these crimes came from high levels of the Venezuelan government. Paul Seils is a British lawyer who worked on the report. We reached him in Edinburgh, Scotland. And a warning: this inteview contains disturbing discriptions of torture.

CO: Mr. Seild, first of all, how confident are you in this accusation that Maduro's government itself knew or even ordered these crimes against its people?

PAUL SEILS: Well, the way that these reports operate is on the basis that we call a reasonable grounds to believe. So obviously, it's not the same as a criminal conviction. We're not saying it's beyond a reasonable doubt the way you would in a criminal trial. But we have reasonable grounds to believe. That means that we've got more than suspicions. We have good information coming to us that we think is credible. So we are confident. We have been cautious, actually, I would say. And I would say that the findings in relation to the knowledge and the participation and the ways in which various government ministers and military and including the president participated will stand up. It will stand up under scrutiny.

CO: This report is more than 400 pages. It includes 48 in-depth case studies. So we can't do justice to it in this interview. But if you could give us some specific cases, some of those examples that you can pull out and illustrate what you believe is going on.

PS: Well, there's a variety. If I can put it this way, we looked at three broad categories, if I can put it in that sense of the kind of context in which we saw violations and crimes being committed. One related to the kind of targeted suppression of political opposition. Another related to the ways in which effectively the efforts to combat rampant crime and enveloped in a policy of basically executing people suspected of or associated with criminal gangs or groups. And thirdly, some things we would call a kind of formal social cleansing that we've seen in Latin America before. And in the third catagory, the third context, we're looking at the violations that took place in relation to the protests that have been going on. There's been between 60,000 and 70000 protests in the last several years since 2014. And in that context, there's been arbitrary detentions and killings and torture. After people were detained in the protests, various people were then subjected to what we have described as clearly amounting to torture. So a range of things. And then we've seen these operations, so-called operations, to liberate people that were basically kind of almost in several cases staged operations. The relevant forces went in and closed off the entries and exits to the communities that we were going into. And basically split up groups and then detained the people that they wanted. And in many cases, they staged the execution of those people pretending that they were seeking to flee the house that they were in or putting up a fight when it was clear that that wasn't possible from the analysis that we've been able to do.

CO: And there is something that you referred to as seeding or planting seeds. And this is some people were taken in because the weapons were planted on them in order to justify these detentions. Is that right?

PS: That happened in a number of cases. We have evidence both in relation to the protests that I mentioned, but also in relation to these operations that were closer to what you might call the cleansing, the social cleansing, or the elimination of alleged criminals. And both of those contexts, we have evidence and information where guns were planted in the scene or different kinds of attempts. You know, the officials in question seem to have failed guns into the wall to make it look as if there was a gunfight there to justify the killings of a person in question. So this happened on enough occasions to indicate that this was part of a kind of pattern, yes.

CO: You're saying that this is not just hearsay information that you received. You interviewed, you actually met some of the people who told you that these things happened to them?

PS: No, it's not hearsay. This has been conducted I would say along the following ways, interviews with witnesses, we have I don't know how many hours of footage, but thousands of hours of footage, I would guess, in terms of videos and other recordings. We have conducted a series of detailed interviews with a number of people who are either active or have been very active and very senior in the relevant authorities, including the intelligence services and the police. So this isn't hearsay. This is substantiated. And in, many, many ways corroborated.

CO: It's no secret that Western countries would like to see Mr. Maduro step down. And Canada is one of the leaders of those who would like to see him go, and regard his government as being illegitimate. What do you say to claims that the U.N. and your report is another example of what Mr. Maduro says just biased attempts to discredit his government?

PS: First of all, it's very clear that the context in which the mandate was cleared, that the Human Rights Council was a politically-charged atmosphere. And that the situation in Venezuela itself is enormously politically-charged. No one denies the context. The difference, I suppose, is that this is an independent fact finding mission. The three of us who were appointed to that, myself and my two colleagues, have no axe whatsoever to grind in that. And I have no hesitation in saying that we are absolutely independent. So, yes, I fully expect the Venezuelan government to… And I, naturally, have seen the response already, which indicates that that's what they are taking. It's deeply regrettable, but it's not entirely surprising. But I don't think it's accurate to say that this is simply another attempt. This is not an attempt to politicize a situation.

CO: Mr. Seils, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you. 

PS: Thank you very much indeed.

CH: We reached lawyer Paul Seils in Edinburgh, Scotland. 

[Music: Ambient]

Sentance commuted 

CH: Maya Moore and Jonathan Irons know how to be patient. They first met in 2007. At the time, Mr. Irons was nine years into a 50-year prison sentence for burglary and assault. But his conviction was a wrongful one. And Maya Moore would devote the next 13 years of her life to proving it — even taking a hiatus from basketball at the peak of her WNBA career. Finally, earlier this year, Jonathan Irons had his setence commuted. But it turns out his freedom wasn't the only thing the pair were waiting for. This morning on "Good Morning America", they revealed they'd also been waiting for each other. And that this summer, not long after Mr. Irons was released, they tied the knot. 

MAYA MOORE: I met Jonathan when I was 18. I was about to be a freshman at UConn. And my godparents and my great uncle introduced me to him and his story and his case. Being wrongfully convicted, he had been in prison over a decade at that point. And so I was just interested in learning, got to know him. And over the last 13 years, we have just developed a friendship and just entered into this huge battle to get him home. And just over time, it was pretty clear what the Lord was doing in our hearts. And now we're sitting here today, starting a whole new chapter together. 

ROBIN ROBERTS: Yes, you are. And, Jonathan, so how'd you pop the question?

JONATHAN IRONS: A few years ago, while we were on a visit in prison, and at that point, you know, we acknowledged, both awknowildged, that we have really strong feelings for each other, so much so that, you know, I wanted to marry her. But at the same time, protect her. Because being in a relationship with a man in prison is extremely difficult and painful. And I didn't want her to feel trapped. I wanted her to feel open and have the ability to any time, if this is too much for you, go and find someone, live your life. Because this is hard. But, at the same time, she was like, well, I'm here now. I said, well, I want to ask you something. She says, What? I said, Will you marry me? I said, But don't answer that question yet.  [everyone laughs] I said, I just want you to wait until I'm home. Because in my mind, I didn't know if I'd be home. And she's such an amazing, beautiful person. I can never trap her and, you know, not let her fulfill her dreams of, you know, being a wife and being a mother one day. But then when I got out, we were in the hotel room. We had some friends in another room. It was winding down. And we were extremely tired, but we were still gassed up on excitement. And it was just me and her in the room. And I got down on my knees and I looked up at her. She kind of knew what was going on. I said, Will you marry me? She said, Yes. [everyone laughs] Here we are today.

CH: WNBA star Maya Moore and her husband Jonathan Irons — speaking with Robin Roberts on "Good Morning America" earlier today. 

[Music: Cafe-like acordian]

Cormorant cull

Guest: Buzz Boles

CH: Buzz Boles spent most of yesterday in a bright orange jacket, half-way up a tree. The Eastern Ontario man was there because it was the first day of the province's new cormorant hunt. Mr. Boles wasn't there to kill his quota of the little-loved birds. He's a retired wildlife biologist — and he was there to protect a group of the birds from a cull that he thinks could wipe them out. We reached Buzz Boles in the village of Portland, Ontario on Big Rideau Lake.

CO: Mr. Boles, what is it about cormorants that inspired you to take a day out of your retirement and climb up into a tree and stand there?

BUZZ BOLES: Well, a couple of things. One, I've been studying that cormorant colony here in Big Rideau Lake for five years. And I care a great deal about it. And I understand how it fits into the ecology of our lake. And there's a need to protect the ecosystem that we have here.

CO: And do you think you are able to do that — to prevent any of the shooting of the birds?

BB: Well, only two hunters boats showed up. One turned around after seeing our sign that said don't shoot. Protect the Big Rideau Lake cormorant colony. The other boat proceeded to shoot two cormorants. And no other hunters showed up. And I think that's to the credit of the local hunters who've heard a lot of arguments, pro and con, around here and have recognized the need not to shoot these cormorants.

CO: I saw pictures of you up in the tree. You're wearing a very bright red vest. Good idea. Were you at all concerned about being out there on the island, especially in the early hours before it was really light out?

BB: Well, my wife was very concerned. [both chuckling] I wasn't particularly. I don't think anybody's going to shoot at me or that. I was concerned that I'd be very visible so that if somebody was shooting, they wouldn't accidentally shoot in my direction.

CO: The Ford government says that they are opening up this hunt because the birds have, well, there's an esthetic concern. They do drop a lot of guano around, don't they? They're considered to be killing trees. I noticed the island that you're in, the trees look like they have taken a hit there. I don't know why that's the case. But there's also the issue with the the fishing the cormorants do because they they they eat a diet exclusively of fish. So those are the reasons they give. Do you think that there is any legitimacy in that?

BB: There is some, but we have to take it in context. For our colony, there was an ancient, ancient colony in the lake. We can track it back to the early 1800s. When they built a Rideau canal, they raised the water level and drowned out the Rocky Island where that colony was. Cormorants then in general everywhere went way down in numbers for 167 years due to hunting, market hunting and agricultural pesticides. And now their populations are springing back. And interestingly enough, the cormorants that came back to Big Rideau here in numbers picked a little government-owned island — and I mean little — just 100 metres from where their ancient colony used to be. And if they were there a couple of hundred years ago, they'd been there for a couple of thousand years, probably. So they've been part of the ecology here for a very long time.

CO: You mentioned that not many countries showed up for this first day of this hunting of cormorants. We've seen in the past other culls that get announced. A lot of hunters are not interested, especially these birds in particular, not good eating. Even people don't usually take full quotas, do they? Even if you're an angler, often you don't take the full quota. So really, do you think it's going to actually result in a whole bunch of people going out and shooting 15 birds each?

BB: Well, they have 122 days to do that, every day. But what I see in the local conversations around here, like on Facebook, etc., is many hunters who are disgusted by this hunt being set up. We see some who are very, very gung ho to go out and shoot cormorants. But I give credit to hunters that the bird is inedible. A cardinal principle of hunting just about anywhere is that if you kill it, you eat it. And cormorants are inedible, that's been proven by a few people who have tried it. [chuckling]

CO: So it may not amount to anything — this cull?

BB: Well, yesterday, somebody to make a point came out and right in front of me shot a couple of cormorants. I got to tell you, it's a very sad and disgusting thing to see. And I think we have to wait and see how many people go to hunt cormorants. But what I hear is there's a very small group of passionate kill the cormorant types who are going out to shoot all they can. And I don't know if we'll have a colony here next year. I lay awake nights thinking about that.

CO: Mr. Boles, I appreciate speaking with you, thank you.

BB: Thank you for asking me to come chat with you. 

CO: All right. Bye-bye. 

BB: Bye-bye.

CH: Buzz Boles is a retired wildlife biologist. We reached him in Portland, Ontario which is located on Big Rideau Lake. 

[Music: Horns!]

Thunder Bay dinos

CH: If you're passing by a park in Thunder Bay, Ontario, you might see a dinosaur enjoying the playground. Or while you're there on a day trip, you might come across two dinosaurs jamming on their guitars. Or they might come across you — and wave, as they go by on their Segways. It's a strange sight, since they're long-dead relics. The Segways, I mean. But the dinosaurs are a surprise too. Which is exactly what Shawna Batson and Jacie Rutledge had in mind. They're the two women going around the city in dinosaur costumes — and sharing the photos on social media. Here's Shawna Batson talking to CBC in Thunder Bay. 

SHAWNA BATSON: It actually all started with a friend inviting us to a talent show. And she saw one of my videos on Instagram. And I had this dinosaur outfit and I was jogging with it. And she's like, oh my gosh, that's hilarious. Can we use this in our talent show? And I'm like, how about we do, like, way better than this video? And we ended up making, like, this music video. And everybody loved it. There was like over 500 people at the talent show over zoom and everybody just loved it. We ended up going out one day on the fake waves wearing the dinosaur. We went all the way around Boulevard. And as we were going around Boulevard, we had so many people stop us and ask us what we were doing, why we were doing it? And we just said, oh, we want to make people smile, especially with the COVID, like, I find that mental health is just on the rise. And we both, like, live and know the challenges of mental health. And if we can make one person day, just going out there being goofy dinosaurs, it's just it's so worth it.

HEATHER KITCHING: [laughing] So how do you guys plan what you're going to do with the dinos next?

SB: It really just depends. Something we plan. Some things, it's just very spontaneous and it's like, hey, let's go do this with the dinosaurs. And we tend to bring the dinosaurs with us if we know that we're going to go on a hike somewhere. We'll just bring them with us. And if an opportunity comes up like, hey, this would make a great picture, a great video, then we throw on the dinosaur and act silly and film it. And then we have something to post on Instagram.

HK: So what kind of feedback have you had from this so far?

SB: Such great feedback. Like, everybody is just can't get enough, I find. And it just makes our day. So it's been just wonderful. We find that a lot of the kids, too, if we're at the marina or around Boulevard or somewhere, kids just love it. They come running up to us and want high fives. And, of course, we're wearing dinosaur costumes. We have gloves on. So we're not spreading any germs. We carry hand sanitizer with us. And we've actually sanitized the dinosaur hands so many times that the pattern is starting to wear off of them. [HK laughs] And the kids love to take pictures with us. Even adults come and take pictures with us. It's great.

CH: Shauna Batson, speaking with CBC reporter Heather Kitching in Thunder Bay, Ontario. Recently.