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The AIH Transcript for September 5, 2019

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight...

CO: Torn apart. As Hurricane Dorian hits the Atlantic coast the scale of destruction in the Bahamas is starting to emerge -- our guest lost her aunt and the family home to the storm.

CH: Swift justice. While babysitting an Edmonton woman named Justice Taylor discovered two girls confined to the basement -- and thanks to her, two women have pleaded guilty in the shocking case.

CO: The long road ahead. A young Toronto man and his family are keeping a vigil by a stretch of street where his sister was killed in a hit-and-run trying to reach a bus stop between two crosswalks nearly a full kilometre apart.

CH: Truth to power. Former NDP leader Ed Broadbent remembers the fearless honesty of his friend and fellow progressive -- the prolific Canadian historian Desmond Morton.

CO: If you're out there, give us a sign. The giant "Toronto" sign in the city's downtown is going to be replaced -- and the town of Orono, Ontario -- spelt like "Toronto" without the Ts -- would like five-sevenths of it.

CH: And Achilles eel. After exhaustive DNA testing of the waters of Loch Ness, our guest found no evidence of a dinosaur or a multi-headed zombie dragon -- but plenty of evidence of eels. As It Happens. The Thursday Edition. Radio that figures there could be eels and a monster you know like a combination Loch.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Dorian victim

Dorian victim

Guest: Racquel Cartwright

CH: Today, Hurricane Dorian continued its rampage -- making its way up the eastern coast of the United States. It's been downgraded to a Category 2 hurricane. But Dorian is still expected to do serious damage in North and South Carolina where storm surge waters could reach up to two and a half meters -- or eight feet. Atlantic Canada is also bracing for the storm which is anticipated to hit there over the weekend. In the Bahamas, the extent of Dorian's destruction is beginning to emerge. At least 20 people have been killed. Among the victims is Irene Saunders, who was with her family in Freeport when the storm hit. Racquel Cartwright is her niece. We reached Ms. Cartwright in London, Ontario.

CO: Racquel I'm very sorry for your loss.

RACQUEL CARTWRIGHT: Thank you.

CO: What is your understanding of what happened? When did they first realize they were really in trouble in that house?

RC: I cannot be certain when they figured out they were in trouble. This is the story that I was told by my family -- that once the water started rising they started going on top of like the tables, the countertops, things like that. And then when the water started getting too high that they couldn't stand on the tabletops, they moved up to the ceiling area of their house -- because they don't have a two story house, it's only a one story house. And they went up into the crawl space of the ceiling and from there they just dug a hole in the roof so they can go on top of the house. But the water was surging so much. That's all they had time to do.

CO: And so once they got out of the house they were in the middle of a hurricane outside.

RC: That's right.

CO: How many people were with them?

RC: It was my aunt who passed away, my uncle -- her husband -- her daughter -- Roslyn -- and her two children.

CO: And so they're all on the roof at this point in this blowing hurricane. What did they do from there as far as what you've learned?

RC: Well from the understanding that I have first they were putting up the children on the roof and even the water is kind of you know coming to the roof level so Roslyn put her mother and her father up and then they helped her up. And the wind was just blowing and then just blew them all off of the roof of the house. So there was a tree -- I don't think it was close by but close enough for all of them to swim to and tie themselves to the tree.

CO: How old are the children?

RC: The little girl is 12 and the little boy is I believe he's 14 -- he'll be 15 soon.

CO: In this blowing hurricane they were able to lash themselves to a tree at least. What happened after that?

RC: Well after that they had been in the water for almost two days screaming for help. And from what I understood there was people trying to come into the area to see if they could find anybody but they had to turn back. So they were in the water and my aunt she just couldn't hold on anymore.

CO: What happened?

RC: She ended up drowning.

CO: So sorry.

RC: Drowning in front of her family. I'm just thinking like what if it was all of them [crying] you know that the hardest part but she was like the cornerstone of her family, for all of us, you know like she would never say that I'm her niece, she would say that's my daughter. She always had an open house, always had food cooking on the stove you know for whoever needed it. She was always helpful and a bright person in our lives. You know so it's really devastating for our family to lose her and lose her the way we did.

CO: Racquel I'm so sorry. How old was she?

RC: She was 77.

CO: And she was with her husband he was there -- your uncle. So everyone else survived?

RC: Everyone else survived. Thank God everyone is alive.

CO: But they were there day and night -- it was during the night as well I guess.

RC: That's right.

CO: What a nightmare. And so how were they finally rescued -- the rest of them?

RC: One of their children Zario Saunders -- he was able to borrow a boat and went out looking for them because the waters were so high that you need somebody that knows the area and that can navigate through the debris and everything like that. So by the time he reached them, they were exhausted. You know literally exhausted.

CO: And so they were able to get everybody into the boat -- and also your aunt Irene.

RC: Yes. There was nowhere to put her at first because the hospital was underwater also. They had a lot of flooding. And the funeral parlor -- they didn't have their generators going or anything because everything is under water so they had to stay with her body for at least a day.

CO: And how was everybody else at this point?

RC: They're hanging in there. I just spoke to my other cousin that's in Freeport and she was telling me that they're running out of supplies, there's no electricity, there's no clean water. My aunt's family has lost everything. So you know I've just been trying to gather supplies and whatever they need because there's nothing coming in right now. There's nothing.

CO: They have nothing to go back to after having survived all of that and having seen your aunt Irene pass away like that now this situation is that once the water has gone down they have no home to return to.

RC: Nothing -- right. There's nothing to go back to.

CO: How difficult is it for you to be in Canada -- to be in London, Ontario -- and not able to be with them and help them?

RC: Oh I feel so guilty. I know there's nothing that I could have done even if I was there but I should be there helping them.

CO: What can you do to help them now?

RC: Well right now I'm just gathering information and supplies. People have reached out to me, they have sent their condolences, and asking how they can assist. So I really appreciate that. Of course a lot of people just want to send my family personal things like clothes and shoes and you know medical supplies and things like that. So you know that's greatly appreciated.

CO: Racquel please pass on to your family our condolences and I appreciate you telling us the story and getting the word out there that these people need help.

RC: Thank you so much.

CH: Racquel Cartwright is the niece of Irene Saunders, who died in Freeport when Hurricane Dorian hit the Bahamas. We reached Ms. Cartwright in London, Ontario. At least 20 people in the Bahamas died during Dorian including Canadian Alishia Liolli from LaSalle, Ontario.

[Music]

Pedestrian vigil

Guest: Clay Jones

CH: Her family says Celeste Jones loved books, movies, and TV -- and that she was a nervous driver who often took public transit rather than get behind the wheel. On Friday Celeste Jones was killed crossing a busy stretch of road to reach a bus stop near her Toronto home. The driver did not stop and has not been identified. In the days since Celeste's family has been keeping a vigil near that same stretch of road. Last night they were joined by Toronto Mayor John Tory and other members of the community. And tonight they're headed back to the scene where they say they'll continue to wait for answers and for solutions to the problem of pedestrian deaths. Clay Jones is Celeste's brother. We reached him in Toronto.

CO: Clay does your family have any idea of what happened to your sister that night?

CLAY JONES: At this current moment we have no idea. We are still trying to put the picture together. We don't have much information. The Toronto Police Services is working around the clock to investigate and get more information for us. But as of the current moment, no -- we have minimal details.

CO: Why was she crossing that road?

CJ: She was crossing as her routine would be to go to work. She works about 20 minutes away using the Toronto Transit. And that was just her normal route -- one bus across to work.

CO: For people who don't know that stretch of Sheppard Ave, could you just described where this happened.

CJ: So where the incident took place was between Warden and Pharmacy on Sheppard Avenue East -- exactly in the middle I would say, in between that stretch. And that stretch is about a kilometre long without anywhere to cross the street. But Sheppard is yeah --there's a lot of traffic on Sheppard Ave.

CO: It's really busy, isn't it? And cars are just bulleting down that stretch, aren't they?

CJ: That's the thing like we don't really realize these things until you take the time to really slow down and just look. And the last -- over the week you know when we've just been there every day and just so you know paying respect to Celeste every day just waiting by the tree hoping you know we can get more information and people to come out and maybe they seen something. But we're seeing and witnessing how fast cars move. It's crazy to see. This wasn't planned for modern day. This was planned many many years ago. I can tell that this roadway was planned when possibly cars were going 0 to 100 kilometres when it usually took 10 seconds. And cars these days are going 0 to 100 in three to four seconds so this roadway was built a long time ago.

CO: You mentioned how you and your father have been keeping a vigil at the site where Celeste was hit by the car. You've been there in the evenings. What are you hoping to achieve?

CJ: What we hope to achieve is not just awareness of a loss of Celeste -- it's the awareness that lives matter, people matter. If we can change one soul out there to do the right thing you know that is something that for us -- not even for us but for Celeste...is justice. It's justice -- just to save another life is justice. This is more than Celeste now. This is what Celeste would want. So we are actively out there just trying to pursue justice and also pursue change. We're looking for an answer that will also shed light on how to make these road conditions better -- that's the justice. It is the justice for Celeste. It is the justice for the City of Toronto. It's a justice for everyone at this point.

CO: But we know that so many pedestrians are killed in Toronto. I mean 40 pedestrians killed just last year in this city. Are you making any progress? Do you think that there is an awareness of how dangerous it is for pedestrians in city streets -- not just in Toronto but other big cities?

CJ: I feel that we are making strides. I feel that people are listening. And with that knowledge it can change people. It's something that as our family -- I would say our family -- really truly believes that everyone is good. Everyone has that good in them. And we all do make mistakes. But with that knowledge that we're trying to share that you know maybe for a second think about there's lives out there when you're trying to race down the street and not taking consideration why there's a 60 kilometres speed limit. Take into consideration that lives are out there. Be conscious. Be aware. I think people are hearing that message very deeply and seeing that maybe we can do something different.

CO: Meanwhile there's somebody out there who killed your sister.

CJ: Yeah.

CO: How difficult is that for you and your family to realize that that driver who did that is unidentified?

CJ: Well that's something that leaves my family not only speechless -- it leaves my family with with loss thoughts. We're like lost souls right now. And the magnitude that I describe my sister's death -- I describe that it's murder. She was killed. And it doesn't sit right with us. It's something where every life is precious out here and I'll take it back to where I said we all make mistakes. I've made mistakes in my life. But accountability helps to take away the malice in those mistakes. Being able to apologize. Being able to be aware so we don't make those same mistakes. That's our first step to healing. So I can only hope that the driver's out there he's probably really afraid he's probably hurting too in his way. And I hope that they can see that there is no shame in coming forward. There is no shame in being accountable. So I just feel that he'll see what's going on. He'll be aware of what's going on -- he or she. And know that there will be light at the end of the tunnel when they are able to see that coming forward will heal the situation.

CO: Well I hope that message goes out. Clay I'm so sorry for your loss. Please pass on our condolences to your family.

CJ: Thank you so much.

CH: We reached Clay Jones in Toronto. His sister Celeste was killed by a driver on Friday evening.

[Music]

Not Loch Ness

Guest: Neil Gemmell

CH: Week-long stake-outs. Sonar readings. Satellite tracking. Despite these and other efforts by some scientists and many more people who are definitely not scientists, there's still no proof of the existence of the Loch Ness monster. But one scientists saw that we hadn't exhausted all avenues -- for example the most exhaustive one. Professor Neil Gemmell from New Zealand and a global team of researchers did DNA testing on hundreds of water samples from Loch Ness, cataloguing the creatures that live in its murky waters. And today he revealed a new theory that puts a very different face on the elusive Nessie. We reached Professor Gemmell in Drumnadrochit, Scotland.

CO: Professor Gemmell have you come any closer to solving the mystery of the Loch Ness monster?

NEIL GEMMELL: So we've certainly gotten new evidence that tells us that some of the theories that have been put forward to explain the monster and the monster-ness seems less likely than others. So we've done a very comprehensive survey of Loch Ness using environmental DNA. So we don't need to capture sea creatures, we just need to be able to get water samples that have been in close proximity to those organisms to collect small particles that they've shed that we can then collect, concentrate, and sequence, and compare to international databases to figure out what species are present.

CO: Okay so you've been trying to find out all the different species and animals that have had some contact with Loch Ness. What is the one that you think is most likely to perhaps explain the sightings people have had over the years?

NG: The prevailing wisdom was that there may be four key hypotheses and we tested each one of those. So there is this idea that it is an extinct giant creature here, may be a giant marine reptile. We find absolutely no sequences that match with that sort of organism. In fact we don't even find any reptilian DNA in our samples. So that's not something we have any strong evidence for. And we tested a number of large fish -- catfish. We didn't find the evidence of that, but we did find an awful lot of DNA from eels. Now one of the ideas that had been put forward right from the 1930s onwards was that the Loch Ness monster might be some form of giant eel or at least some of the sightings were certainly explain that why. It's still a long stretch to say from eel DNA that we've got a giant eel but it's a lot more compelling than some of the other evidence that's been put forward.

CO: Do you have any idea how big eels can actually get? I mean if there is a giant eel, how big might it be?

NG: So European eel is normally maybe four -- possibly even up to six feet in length. Some of the eyewitness reports here are of creatures that are 12, 14, maybe even 25 feet. Now I don't think there's an eel that's ever been caught that's that long. So I guess there isn't a heck of a lot of direct evidence to support this notion but it's something we can't rule out completely.

CO: Are there any eels anywhere in the world that may have migrated and found themselves just by happenstance get into the stream and end up in Loch Ness?

NG: I don't think we've got any evidence. There have been eels from other places where species turn up in all sorts of different parts of the world. For example Canadian pink salmon are currently invading Loch Ness. So species can move around. The biggest freshwater eels that I am aware of actually come from my homeland of New Zealand. So we have a species called the longfin eel. And they can grow to six or eight feet in length and they can be thicker than a man's leg. So they are quite large animals and they can live 50 to 100 years.

CO: Of course well this goes back many years, doesn't it? Maybe even 1500 years when people thought there was a beast in the river ness. But this idea since the 1930s has had got currency because people claim to have photos that proved to be not real. There were hoaxes. All kinds of things. How big is the idea that there is a monster in Loch Ness? Because you're over there, what do people say about this?

NG: Yeah. So there are people who are definite believers. You know they have very strong views on the presence of a monster. There are some who are adamant that there is some form of large mysterious reptilian type creature. And there's more than a thousand people who have documented seeing the monster. In fact in the last year alone it's been about 14. So there is a very strong group of believers. There's also a relatively strong group of skeptics. My personal view is that I don't think there is a monster. I think most of this is explained by natural phenomena. But I'm open to the idea that there might be things out there that we don't yet understand. And so that's why we do this. But you know we're also documenting the biodiversity of Loch Ness and in a new way providing a lot of data on what fish species are here or what other things are here. Fundamentally it's a science project that just happens to have a very attractive piece of bait which is the monster that has garnered an enormous attention.

CO: Among the many explanations people have offered over the years is that -- there is one theory that it might be swimming circus elephants that have escaped from the circus Inverness and may have found their way in there...

NG: It wasn't for a long time. [Laughter]

CO: So you found no elephant DNA...

NG: No -- there's no elephant DNA. I mean if it is an escaped circus elephant, they have been doing a lot of good hiding [laughter] for a long time. I mean another one of my favorite explanations -- I got this letter in the mail from a guy who told me that it was mountain commandos that were on camels and wetsuits which and it was a special crate force designed to deal with problems in the Middle East. So I mean I've got to say that one's well outside the realms of what I've ever heard.

CO: What other theories have you heard?

NG: There's lots of people who will say that we've missed Nessie because Nessie was on holiday. Nessie is an extraterrestrial so it doesn't have DNA. Nessie of course is some sort of fantastical creature, some sort of magical creature, and so it doesn't have DNA. Or -- and this is getting into the realms of sort of Stargate -- there is some sort of a wormhole space time and that effectively Nessie is some sort of Jurassic or cretaceous age creature that just pops in and out of existence here every now and then.

CO: Now given that how much imagination and invention has gone into this mythology around Nessie, do you think at some point that your science doesn't matter -- no matter what science you come up with that this matters too much to ever have -- it's true even if it's not true.

NG: It's too big now for it to go away. There will always be people who will believe in the Loch Ness monster because they want to. Every single study that's come looking for the Loch Ness monster has found no definitive evidence of such creature. So at some point you have to say okay maybe there isn't one or the alternative is that it is very good at playing hide and seek. [Laughter] But yeah people who want to believe in monsters will. And I think there's something in our DNA that makes us want to question our environment and also just interpret it in slightly unusual ways. I kind of like that. I'm also open to the idea that it might be things out here that we don't yet understand.

CO: Professor Gemmell it is great to talk to you. Thank you.

NG: No -- thank you.

CH: Neil Gemmell is a geneticist from the University of Otago in New Zealand. We reached him in Drumnadrochit, Scotland.

[Music]

Boris Johnson

CH: Boris Johnson has had a dreadful week. And at a speech in northern England today it showed. The UK's Prime Minister was rambling incoherent, unprepared, and wildly-off topic. Flanked by a group of police recruits he tried to crack jokes but they fell flat. He bounced from topic to topic whether it was Brexit, Brussels, or Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn. And he was clearly rattled. He has good reason to be concerned. Yesterday his call for an early election was defeated in the House of Commons. He also punted out 21 of his Tory colleagues for breaking ranks with the party on a key Brexit vote. And today Jo Johnson -- his own brother -- resigned as an MP and minister. Here was the first question the Prime Minister faced from a reporter today.

SOUNDCLIP

REPORTER: Aren't people entitled to ask if your own brother can't back you, why should anyone else?

BORIS JOHNSON: And he's asking about my brother Jo. Jo doesn't agree with me about the European Union because it's an issue that obviously divides families and divides everybody. But I think what Jo would agree is that we need to get on and sort this thing out. And I think what Jo certainly would agree -- and I think he said as much this afternoon is that this government has exactly the right priorities when it comes to dealing with the issues that really matter to the British people. And I'm talking about making our streets safer, I'm talking about improving our hospitals, and improving our education service. So I thank Jo for all the work that he's done and for the support that he's given for our domestic agenda.

REPORTER: Can you make a promise today to the British public that you will not go back to Brussels and ask for another delay to Brexit?

BORIS JOHNSON: Yes -- I can. I'd rather be dead in a ditch.

REPORTER: So you would resign first, prime minister, rather than going after that delay?

BORIS JOHNSON: Look it costs a billion pounds a month. It achieves absolutely nothing. What on earth is the point of a further delay? I think it's totally pointless.

CH: UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson speaking to reporters today after a speech in northern England.

[Music]

Part 2: Edmonton child abuse

Edmonton child abuse

Guest: Justice Taylor

CH: In an Edmonton courtroom this week, two women pleaded guilty to a disturbing case of child abuse. And they were only in court at all thanks to a 21-year-old babysitter. Two years ago, Justice Taylor was at a home babysitting when she discovered two young girls -- ages 3 and 6 -- confined to a basement, showing signs of abuse. Now the mother of the two young girls and the mother's roommate have pleaded guilty to aggravated assault and unlawful confinement. We reached Justice Taylor in Edmonton. And a warning: the content of this interview is disturbing.

CO: Justice what does it mean for you that the two women have now pleaded guilty for their crimes against these little girls?

JUSTICE TAYLOR: It's a relief that they have admitted to what they've done because I have seen it firsthand and I'm just happy to know that they're in jail, they're going to be in jail hopefully for a while, because I don't want the girls to feel unsafe if their parents get out.

CO: You were 19-years-old when you went to baby sit at this home. What did you understand about where the children were? What instructions did their mothers give you?

JT: They had told me that two of the children were downstairs in the basement, that they were in trouble, not to let them up and that they should be sleeping. And then before they had left they moved a dresser in front of the door to the basement so they would not be able to get out.

CO: The other three children were where?

JT: They were upstairs in their rooms. I had checked on them. They seemed very well taken care of. They looked like they had bathed before bed. They were in clean pajamas. Everything was good with them. But the two girls downstairs was a completely different story.

CO: They told you that they were being punished. They put the dresser there. How did you respond to that once the mothers had left?

JT: As soon as they left. The oldest daughter had knocked on the door to the basement. And my first thought wasn't that it was the kids, I thought it was the mom's coming back -- that they had forgotten something. So I opened the front door thinking that the moms had come back but they weren't there. And then I heard the older daughter say Justice is that you? And I was like yes -- you're awake? And she's like yeah -- can we please come up we're hungry? And I was like yeah for sure. So I moved the dresser and I let them up and they sounded a little rattled because I had babysat them maybe three months prior to this. And they were such good girls, they were so fun, and full of light -- and they sounded like scared kind of. So I was pretty quick to move the dresser and see what was going on with them.

CO: And what condition were they in when you open that door?

JT: The older girl had a big bruise on her neck. But I later saw that her whole back and part of her butt was bruised.

CO: We should warn our listeners again -- we've already done it but we will do it again: that all the details in this story are so disturbing. And could you see what the conditions were in the basement? Where were the girls being confined?

JT: When I had opened the door the first thing was a very strong smell of urine. And I noticed that their pajamas were soiled as well. So I had changed them into clean pajamas. But the older girl's injuries were very severe and I was scared to touch her.

CO: So there was the 6-year-old and the 3-year-old both had these bruises and the damage...had been hurt in this way you're describing.

JT: The younger girl had looked like slash marks on the back of her legs and her teeth were rotted and like broken.

CO: What were you able to do for the girls at that point?

JT: I had fed them a lot because they had told me that they weren't fed all that day and I was there at 11:00 p.m. So that's just outrageous that they wouldn't have ate the entire day. The older girl -- she and I had a very good connection and she was telling me that she wanted me to take her with me when I left. She's like, can I live with you? Like I don't want to be here -- like I just want to stay with you. And I just held her in my arms and I like stroked her hair ever so lightly and I just was crying and we were just crying together because I just felt so bad.

CO: You also took some pictures, didn't you?

JT: Yes I had taken a video because I didn't know if the parents would try to tend to the injuries when they got home before the police had arrived.

CO: You wanted the evidence and you wanted to make sure that the women were confronted with his evidence.

JT: Yes.

CO: At what point did you call the police?

JT: I called the police as soon as I had left their house because if I called the police prior to them coming home they can pull into the driveway and see police cars and then leave. I didn't want them to have a chance to be on the run. I wanted to make sure that they were in the house and that the police went to them and they would be arrested.

CO: So when the mothers came home, you did not tell them that you had rescued the girls from the basement?

JT: Oh I texted them when I first seen the child -- I told them I've seen the kids, they are in horrible condition -- what happened? And the older girl had told me she fell through a sliding door at a birthday party. But when I asked the mom she saw that she fell down the stairs. So I knew for sure something was afoot because they had completely different stories.

CO: The police immediately went to the house and what happened as far as you know?

JT: I was told that the little girl was in a box, taped up with a carpet over top. That really makes me upset because I told the girls like you're going to be okay, nothing bad is going to happen to you -- and they did that to them so I felt guilty for even leaving them for that six minutes until the police got there.

CO: What would you want to say to those girls if you could see them again?

JT: I want them to know I love them. I am so proud of them for being so strong. I wish them nothing but success and happiness in life. And for them to know that this trauma is only going to help you be a stronger person. A lot of people have gone through bad things in their life but you will overcome this. And I just want them to know that they're going to be safe and they don't have to deal with this hurt any longer.

CO: I think you are an extraordinary young woman and I think what you have done is remarkable and what you've done for these girls is lifesaving. But I wonder what effect it's had on you?

JT: It's helped me trust my intuition more. Everyone's situation is different and you need to consider that people are going through pain that you don't know about. It also has made me a better babysitter I believe because now I ask the kids if there's anything wrong -- I make sure I make a strong connection with all the kids I babysit so that they can trust me and tell me if anything like this is happening to them. And it's also helped me choose my career path because I aspire to be a math teacher and in the future if I become a math teacher I will know if I see a bruise on a child that comes to school or anything to get on top of it right away.

CO: You as a young woman hearing all the details, everything you've learned about what these girls went through -- it must live with you. It must be something a trauma you share.

JT: Yes. I even have dreams about it sometimes. And it's...it puts a strain on me but at the same time I am grateful that I was able to get them out of that situation. I feel like I was put there for a reason and that although it might have been traumatic for me and I'm going to have to live with that trauma for the rest of my life, I was able to stop their trauma.

CO: Justice you truly live up to your name.

JT: Thank you so much.

CO: And people are calling you a hero, I will join them with that. Thank you so much for what you did for those girls. Bye bye.

JT: Bye bye.

CH: Justice Taylor's phone call to Edmonton Police in 2017 led to charges in a case of child abuse. The two accused women who cannot be identified in order to protect the identities of their children pleaded guilty this week to aggravated assault and unlawful confinement.

[Music]

Jagmeet Singh

CH: You may have heard the news on our show yesterday, 14 former provincial NDP candidates in New Brunswick were ditching the party for the Greens. But earlier today federal NDP leader Jagmeet Singh said that that number is inaccurate, and he called on Green Party Leader Elizabeth May to give some answers. Here's what Mr. Singh said to reporters in Montreal.

SOUNDCLIP

JAGMEET SINGH: There is this information that's being proposed, being put forward, by Madame May that is false effectively. It's turned out that they've presented information to the public that does not actually accord with the reality -- with the truth. And it's really up to Madame May -- Ms. May -- to respond and the Green Party to respond to that. It turns out there's not 14 people and they were candidates provincially and they weren't actually all included in the letter. And there's lots of things that need to be cleared up. And I ask you to make the questions to Madame May to respond to what actually happened and why they're putting out this false information.

CH: That's NDP leader Jagmeet Singh speaking to reporters earlier today. Well the Green Party has confirmed that at least five people who were on that list shouldn't have been there. Some of those candidates said in a joint press release today that their names were added without their consent and they were shocked by the news reports earlier this week.

[Music]

Desmond Morton

Guest: Ed Broadbent

CH: Desmond Morton once provided a suggestion for his own epitaph: "history is another word for experience." The University of Toronto and McGill historian explained, quote, "My versions of history have been powerfully influenced by my own experiences as a student, a soldier, a writer, and especially as an unashamed political activist and an academic administrator." Professor Morton died on Tuesday at the age of 81. He was the author of more than 40 books including a popular short history of Canada that continues to be taught in classrooms today. Former NDP leader Ed Broadbent was one of Desmond Morton's closest friends. We reached Mr. Broadbent in Ottawa.

CO: Mr. Broadbent first of all I'm sorry for the loss of your friend.

ED BROADBENT: Well thank you. He was indeed a good friend.

CO: He wore a lot of hats throughout his life, didn't he? I mean he was a historian, he was a teacher, he was an activist, he was in politics. But what was he like as a person? What was he like as your friend?

EB: He was -- to select a phrase from my youth -- he was "The real McCoy." He was a totally genuine human being. And he had many many interests and he was a deeply intelligent guy. But he kept separate his own values for example as I've already indicated a committed social democrat but when he was writing history he took off that social democratic hat so to speak and did not let it shape his own interpretation of facts. It wasn't that he separated values out from his life but he did make sure it didn't shape his reading of history. And so he was a great historian. And great many Canadians I believe in my generation got their picture of the history of Canada through the works of Des Morton.

CO: I mean all these hats that he wore and when he took them all off and he kicked back and you were just talking to him as a friend -- tell us a bit about him as a person.

EB: You know how can I express that? He was a guy that was simultaneously you felt very close to -- as I say -- he was ‘The real McCoy.’ But he was hard to get to express -- how would I put it? The emotions of friendship. There was not a barrier but there was a kind of I'm inclined to say almost generic with white Anglo-Saxon males a sense of privacy or borders even between friends that you didn't cross. So it was sometimes hard to get to him in terms of what the deeper emotions in conversation. But the way he expressed them was in his writing. In the last few years of his life he had a regular correspondence with friends. He would send out for a while on a weekly basis extraordinary one-page observations on the state of the universe or something much more mundane that were put in personal language in terms. And these were sent to his friends. And I have a hunch that he felt much more at home in writing even to close friends to say what he had in his mind than he did in terms of speaking directly.

CO: I want to ask you about the Waffle movement then. That era of politics -- the waffle being a radical movement within the NDP in the late 60s and the 70s. You were initially I think part of it but you saw a different course of the NDP to take. But Des Morton was very much involved with that. How did you reconcile it? Did that affect your friendship at all?

EB: Oh no. Not at all. He was always able to bridge such a gap. He recognized that there were different political perspectives even within the NDP family if I can put it that way. But that didn't affect his personal relationships. And that wasn't always characteristic of people within the waffle if I may say as opposed to people who weren't in the waffle. One of the unfortunate aspects about that part of the history of the NDP is that they created very often on both sides of the debate whether you were pro or anti-waffle that kind of animosity frequently that did seriously jeopardize some friendships. But this was not the case with Des -- certainly not with me. He respected fully the differences of opinion within the family if I can put it that way.

CO: And how did he deal with you once you became the leader of the party -- once you had that power?

EB: Well frankly he was terrific. He was one of the few people if I can put it that way in a leader's busy agenda -- if there's a series of calls that you had to make in a day and the name Des Morton was there I would be certain to put him right up at the top of the list when I even had you know quite a busy schedule as leader because he was -- to use a hackneyed phrase -- a man who always spoke truth to power. So he would in addressing any issue of the day, I could be sure when I was talking to Des I would get truthfully what was on his opinion. He was never interested in flattery or making one feel totally comfortable with the state of the universe. Quite often, quite the opposite -- to make you feel uncomfortable if there was an important truth that he wanted to get out. And this is a remarkably important quality he had.

CO: I suspect you'll be getting a lot of calls like this one and people wanting you to pay tribute to Desmond Martin or help us do that. But I wonder -- when you have a private moment, when you are able to just reflect -- how will you remember your friend?

EB: Oh I remember him as an immensely intelligent man who cared passionately about his country and was a wonderful friend. That's it.

CO: Mr. Broadbent thank you.

EB: Thank you.

CH: Ed Broadbent is the former leader of the NDP. We reached him in Ottawa. In February 1993 Desmond Morton took a call from As It Happens. Brian Mulroney had stepped down as prime minister. The former host Michael Enright questioned Professor Morton's thesis that Canada had become a harder place under Mr. Mulroney.

SOUNDCLIP

DESMOND MORTON: I don't want to demonise Brian Mulroney individual. But you and I are talking about an era -- and an era is symbolized by the person who happens to be in charge. I mean the Mackenzie King era -- the Diefenbaker and so on. Well this is the Mulroney era. It has now come to an end. Who knows what name will go on the next period of years or even months? But this is the Mulroney period and this is what this particular historian of present day Canada sees as different.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: Let me ask you then as a historian that is you being the historian and me asking the question. After the FLQ crisis in October in 1978 it said that Canada lost its innocence. Now we tend to go through these periods where something happens politically or socially and we're not what we were before it happened. Now we're allegedly meaner and greedier and I mean I just...

DESMOND MORTON: Well I think that incidentally I don't happen to believe the age of innocence argument with the FLQ crisis. But I do think that something happened to Canada when our affluence came to an end. In affluent times when most people are getting better, it's easy to be generous because next year you'll have more for yourself -- you can share more. Right now what's happened is the conservative dream. I mean a conservative is definably as somebody who believes the past is better than the future. And after 8 years of Brian Mulroney, isn't that what's happened. Most Canadians think the future is going to be more difficult for them, for their children, for the country than the past.

CH: From our archives that was Desmond Morton on As It Happens in 1993. The University of Toronto and McGill historian died on Tuesday. He was 81.

[Music]

Tasha McCrae

CH: Tasha McCrae moved into her new home in Leduc, Alberta at the start of September. Two days later she opened her front door to a group of unexpected guests. Ms. McCrae was the victim of what's called swatting. Someone had made a false call to 911 reporting a shooter in her home. She told her story to Adrienne Pan -- host of CBC Edmonton's Radio Active.

SOUNDCLIP

TASHA MCCRAE: I had gone into the shower. My toddler was sleeping. My two girls each had a friend over. And when I got out of the shower I could hear someone talking over what I thought was a megaphone like maybe an ice cream truck. I looked out my window and I saw police cars. So I went downstairs, I wrapped myself in a towel to look closer out of my living room window and I saw that my entire street was closed off and there was a bunch of police officers hiding behind cars with their guns pointed at my door. And then I could hear them through the megaphone calling for the resident of my address to come outside. I ended up slowly opening the door and coming outside. And being yelled at to raise my hands where they could see them and I started crying that I had a towel on and I didn't know what was going on and that I have five kids in the house. It started to calm down a bit. They asked my name, how old my kids were. And they told me to round them up into a room which I did and then I went and got dressed. Four members ended up searching my house with guns and then left.

ADRIENNE PAN: What were they looking for? What did they tell you they were looking for?

TASHA MCCRAE: Apparently there was a shooter in my house and we had shot somebody. I don't know what to say. I was like I swear there's nobody in my home with a gun I don't know who you're talking about. There's no guns in my house.

ADRIENNE PAN: What did they say when they realized that this was just swatting incident -- a prank?

TASHA MCCRAE: Sometimes teenagers for kicks will do that so all I know it could have been anybody. I can't think of a single person in my entire life that would do that to me. I'm not even going to put blame on the previous tenants but I am two days new there. A really sweet neighbour had brought me cinnamon buns when she heard what happened as a formal welcome to the neighbourhood. Everyone else has seen me in my towel surrounded by SWAT members so I guess I'll be pretty popular.

CH: That was Tasha McCrae speaking with Adrienne Pan, the host of Radio Active in Edmonton.

[Music]

Part 3: Scottish county wants proper burial for 18th-century woman accused of witchcraft

Heart attack study

Guest: Shamir Mehta

CH: A heart attack is terrifying. It can leave you dizzy, weak, out of breath and in the worst case scenario of course it can kill you. What's also scary is that for decades cardiologists have been given conflicting advice about the proper follow up care for some heart attack survivors -- specifically whether to send them home with a prescription or to book them for a further procedure to clear out other partially blocked arteries. Dr. Shamir Mehta wants to clear up that confusion. He is the director of interventional cardiology at Hamilton Health Sciences and the principal investigator behind a study published this week in The New England Journal of Medicine. We reached him in Toronto.

CO: Dr. Mehta what have you determined is the best way to treat someone who has just survived a heart attack?

SHAMIR MEHTA: So in Canada now you will be transported immediately to a cardiac centre of excellence where we will mechanically open up the blockage and place a stent and that's a lifesaving procedure. But often when we do that we find additional blockages in the other arteries of the heart that did not cause the heart attack. And doctors have not known what to do about those additional blockages. Half of the doctors believe that you should treat those additional blockages with medication. And the other half of physicians believe that we should be routinely opening them with stents.

CO: Well doesn't it logically seem that the thing to do is to clear the blockages.

SM: Not necessarily because we have had data in patients who have not had a heart attack that has shown that clearing the blockages does not reduce the risk of a subsequent heart attack or a death. And remember that every time we do a procedure there is a risk particularly after a patient has just sustained a major heart attack.

CO: Okay. So you have done the clinical study of this and what did you find seems to have the best results between those who are sent home with medication and those who have those arteries open with the stents?

SM: So we were really interested in knowing whether these additional procedures prevent what we call hard clinical outcomes. These are major events. They're life changing events. So obviously death is one of them. And having a recurrent heart attack is another. And so we did a multinational trial. It involved many Canadian centres but also international centers in Europe and the US. And it was a randomized comparison where half of the patients received routine opening of the additional blockages. And the other half of patients were treated with medications alone. And we followed patients for three years.

CO: And what did you find with what happened to those patients?

SM: There was a major benefit of opening the additional blockages.

CO: How much more benefit was there?

SM: Well it was a 26 percent relative risk reduction which means that there's a 26 percent less risk of having a heart attack or death from cardiovascular causes.

CO: That's quite a big difference, isn't it?

SM: And this is on top of all of the other therapies that have evolved over the last two or three decades. So it's on top of the initial angioplasty procedure and then we have a number of medications that are very effective in preventing further cardiovascular events. And now this procedure further reduces the risk on top of all of those effective treatments that we already have.

CO: Having these results and being able to show this study and the data, what difference would that make for cardiologists? How would you think that should change or will change how they make decisions?

SM: So because the results are so clear -- this was just published simultaneously in the New England Journal of Medicine and it was presented at the largest cardiology meeting in the world in Paris, France just days ago -- because the results are so clear and the guidelines recommending what doctors should do will change recommending that this be done uniformly. So those debates that we used to have about whether we should open them or leave them alone, that will go away and practice will now become uniform amongst physicians, amongst hospitals, and even internationally -- it doesn't matter which hospital you go to internationally, you'll likely be treated in the same way.

CO: And so this universal change is going to happen. Congratulations on that. But also from the point of view of a cardiologist yourself, what has it been like up to now making these sort of life and death decisions for your patients and not having this kind of empirical evidence?

SM: Well it's always uncomfortable when we don't have the evidence. And there are many areas in medicine where we don't have good evidence for what we should be doing. Cardiology is one of the more advanced areas where we have large trials but this is one area where there was a gap, where we really didn't know what to do, and we would leave it just to the discretion or the intuition of the treating doctor. But we finally now have some evidence.

CO: Does doing the procedure in clearing out the arteries of the blockages -- the other arteries -- is that an expensive operation?

SM: It's not overly expensive because it's not an operation, it's a procedure. It doesn't take very long to do. Having said that there is a cost. But by doing the procedure you're preventing recurrent heart attacks, you're preventing emergency room visits, and all of the downstream costs have to be balanced with the upfront cost of the procedure. And I think physicians will embrace these results because not many treatments that we evaluate have such an impact on patients with heart disease.

CO: I know that you're in a car heading home from the airport coming from this very successful trip to Paris and so we'll let you go. Dr. Mehta thank you.

SM: My pleasure. Thank you.

CH: Dr. Shamir Mehta is a professor of medicine at McMaster University and the director of interventional cardiology at Hamilton Health Services. We reached him in Toronto.

[Music]

Scottish "witch" bones

Guest: Douglas Speirs

CH: Before Lilias Adie died, she was accused of being a witch. That was more than 300 years ago. And this past weekend in Scotland's County Fife, locals gathered at a beach to remember her. It's believed Ms. Adie was buried there -- under a large stone slab so that she couldn't rise from the grave. That slab notwithstanding, Ms. Adie's remains did go missing. And now officials have launched a campaign to find them. Douglas Speirs is the county's archaeologist. He was at this weekend's memorial event. We reached him in Glenrothes, Scotland.

CO: Douglas how hopeful are you that the remains of this woman -- Lilias Adie -- can actually be found?

DOUGLAS SPEIRS: I'm actually quite confident Carol that they will be found. Certainly I think the skull is probably in a museum collection but it has just been misplaced or mislabelled. And I think it's very likely that her other bones -- her ribs and femur and so on and leg bones -- are probably hidden away in lofts and so on and houses in Fife. And the owners just don't appreciate their significance or history.

CO: But why were the bones taken in the first place? What was the motivation for people raiding that grave?

DS: The grave was opened in 1852 at the request of a local antiquarian. And this chap, Joseph Neil Paton, was a great collector of antiquarian items and Scottish curios and features and facets of Scottish history. But he was a also very keen phrenologist. He believed strongly in the emerging science as it was considered then that you can infer much about an individual's character and their traits from the study of their skull. So he was very keen to obtain the skull of a known witch so that's why it was opened.

CO: What do we actually know about Lilias Adie and how she came to be accused of being a witch?

DS: Well we know a reasonable amount about Lilias. She is otherwise unrecorded in the pages of history apart from the tragic circumstances by which she comes to our attention. So essentially all we knew of her is contained in the court session minutes for the period July 1704 to September 1704. In these minutes it's recorded that a couple of local village women fell ill with some kind of summer illness. They accused Lilias of causing that malady through witchcraft. She was taken into custody. She was maltreated. She confessed quite worldly to a whole range of things. As part of these confessions we can infer a number of things about her. She was probably in her late 50s, 60s, or possibly even her 70s. She does not appear to have been married or if she was married she was a widow by this time. She appears to have been a vulnerable individual, very lowly status of the labouring landed class at this time so she was a very minor player, a small time individual in a little an otherwise unknown hamlet.

CO: She confessed to being a witch presumably after being tortured to do so. What did she actually say? What does the record say that she actually confessed to?

DS: The records are quite lengthy because over the period of about a month -- 29 days -- which she was actually incarcerated, she was interrogated seven times and paraded in church to confess twice. And minutes were made of these confessions. And so we build up a picture of supposedly what she had done. Essentially the main accusations against her were that she had caused the illness of two individuals. But the confessions which were extracted from her principally through sleep deprivation so she confessed a wide range of things. She was in cahoots with the devil or she confessed to having renounced her Christian baptism, having gone through a satanic ritual of baptism, having had sex and carnal relations with the devil on many occasions. She describes his black swarthy skin, his cloven feet, and his hat and so on. But there's no real substance to her -- in terms of the accusations of her doing anything bad or anything other than her cohorts essentially with the devil.

CO: The tradition was to burn witches -- so-called witches at the stake. How did Lilias Adie die?

DS: We're not exactly sure how she died. The last entry of the court session minutes talks about a few hours before her death. She was weak and her eyes were fading and so on. So we believe she simply passed away after that. She was relatively quickly within few days, she was buried in the intertidal zone on the foreshore nearby in a most elaborate revenant burial ceremony she was taken out at low tide. Her body was locked in a makeshift wooden chair. It was buried and on top of this was placed a large heavy sandstone slab and these were all attempts to stop her rising from the grave. So her grave was covered for much of the day by the tide. And for good measure they put a very large slab on top of her because they were genuinely worried about the real prospect of her physically pushing her way out of the box, pushing up through the mud, pushing the stone off and actually rising from the grave in a very real and physical sense.

CO: Good heavens. She of course was not the only witch who -- a woman who was accused of being witch -- which mostly women, there are thousands of them in Scotland, right?

DS: The records are fragmentary because the preservation of written records in Scotland isn't terribly good. We have big gaps in all of our records. But if we collate the known records we have actual real written evidence for about 3600 accusations of cases of witchcraft. We can definitely see of those 3600 cases about 1400 hundred led to executions. But what we can't see is how many are not represented in the missing records or how many led to executions where we know that there was an accusation but we don't have the records telling us what the outcome of the case was.

CO: But in this case having a grave makes Lilias Adie somewhat unique. So what are the plans if you're able to recover her remains -- what will the county do with them?

DS: Well it is very unique as you see because the vast majority of witches were strangled, garroted, and then burned and then they were unceremoniously buried next to the fire pit. So we know roughly an occasion where they weren't. And sometimes you come across the stray bones doing archaeological work in advance of development. But we knew of very few real authenticated graves of witch so that really does make Lilias' grave stand out. The plans for the return of her bones are under consideration. If they are secured then it's likely or the hope is from the local community that there will be reburied in the local parish cemetery and give them the dignity that she never received in life.

CO: Just an extraordinary story Douglas. And thank you for telling it to us.

DS: It's a pleasure Carol.

CH: That was Fife county archaeologist Douglas Speirs in Glenrothes, Scotland. If you want to see some pictures of that spot Mr. Speirs described where Lilias Adie was buried visit our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Glen Best

CH: As experiences go, it was like heavy. Bend-your-rod-nearly-to-breaking-heavy. Newfoundland's Glen Best has spent his life fishing but never tried to bag a tuna. This weekend the Fogo Island fisherman ventured to the Bonavista Peninsula to give it a shot. Little did he know -- and really he didn't know -- that when he returned to the wharf he'd be a local legend. Glen Best told his story to CBC Newfoundland Morning.

SOUNDCLIP

GLEN BEST: Now I had some friends up that way that see a lot of tuna out of their last past few years. So they had been telling me Glen there's lots of tuna up here so why don't you come up here and give it a try. And I really discounted for the first couple times they mentioned to me and then finally I said you know it sounds -- and they sent me some great video of just tuna jumping underwater and feeding frenzy so because of their urging I decided that I'd like to try and go up there. So we left from Princeton and just went down to the bay -- probably a couple miles up from a place called Plate Cove. Then we got some cod stomachs and stuff and chum underwater water. And you get the fish coming around and get them in a little bit of feeding frenzy and you hope that he takes it and you can imagine the excitement when the fish took the hook. I mean we saw the fish come along and actually take the hook. So it flew by so fast and so strong -- and it flew by and grabbed the hook and then off we were. The line was flying off to reel and you know everybody was excited and we had to try to catch up with the fish and play him out and try to do the best we could so we wouldn't lose him. It was a really thrilling thing to do. We were in a 23 foot open speedboat. So this fish was towing the boat backwards probably at least two knots. He told us by a mile and a half. So I mean they're strong fish. And when they fly out you got to play them and move with them and keep attention to the line. And we hooked that one at 9:40 and I think around 10:50 we had it alongside the boat. I was thinking it was a 500 pound fish and I said well it looks like a 500 pound fish. When we got it up to the side and looked at it again "oh gosh might be bigger than..." We will go 500 pound. And when we weighed it, it was 922 pounds.

CH: That was Glen Best speaking with CBC Newfoundland Morning. This weekend the Fogo Island fisherman reeled in a 418 kilogram tuna -- that is 922 pounds -- near Bonavista Newfoundland. He sold the bluefin to a local restaurant but not before slicing off a slab for himself.

[Music]

Orono sign

Guest: Mark Rutherford

CH: It's big with tourists and big with Instagrammers. It's also just big. And now Toronto is getting rid of its giant sign outside City Hall -- made up of seven enormous letters. It wasn't meant to be there forever and it's not in the best shape so the city plans on replacing it with a shiny new sign which leaves the question of what will happen to the old one. Well one small Ontario town says it would be happy to lug the giant sign about 90 kilometres east of Toronto although it really only has a use for five of the seven letters. Mark Rutherford is leading the charge. We reached him in Orono -- spelled O-R-O-N-O -- Ontario.

CO: Mark what exactly does Orono want to do with the old Toronto sign?

MARK RUTHERFORD: Well we want to take what is such an iconic figure and install it in our town somewhere that could be seen from the passers-by on the highway and attract them into our beautiful little town so that they can see what we have to offer and hopefully it can be a social media icon for us as well.

CO: I think you're at a fair or something, aren't you?

MR: Right now I'm at the 167th Orono Fair. It's actually where we're -- I'm hoping I can convince them if we get the sign to put it up out here.

CO: Okay so there's one issue though is that the sign says Toronto and you live in Orono -- which is spelled quite similarly. You got Orono. And Toronto of course has a few extra letters there. So what do you propose to do?

MR: So you know what -- you know I'm a fifth generation in this town and we've always quipped that Orono is Toronto without the Ts. So we would tip the Ts over, slide an O together and we'd have ourselves an Orono sign that pays homage to our community and outskirts of the Toronto City Centre.

CO: Okay. The sign itself if people haven't seen it, it's out in front of City Hall in Toronto right now. And those are the big huge letters there that I think they're freestanding so how do you manage to eliminate the Ts?

MR: Well you know we're quite industrious and ingenious little community out here that I'm sure that we could have a look at the construction of it. And we've got lots of resources and talented people that could remove the Ts and shuffle the letters around and fabricate what we need to fabricate to make it to suit and fit our location out here in Orono.

CO: You would still have it -- it would still stay the same way...just like leave gaps where the Ts are or try to smooch them together and have Orono?

MR: I think we could slide the last Orono in closer and make it say you know as one simple straight word Orono.

CO: You've contacted Toronto's mayor -- John Tory -- what did he say about this?

MR: Well he didn't say no. So that was the first positive. And he thought that it was an iconic sign and I think he recognized that it was going to be taken to recycling. And you know he suggested that you know he'd like to see the sign you know all stayed together so that Toronto would get more love. But he certainly recognized I think that it might be a suitable location to move it out here for us and let us get some media attention and some attraction into our small town with it as well.

CO: So he wants you to take the whole sign but he wants to keep the Ts?

MR: Yeah. Well no -- he'd like us to leave the Ts in place I think. But you know we can set it up and turn those off later.

CO: [Laughter] Okay. But you know there is a reason that Toronto wants to get rid of this sign that it's not waterproof, it costs about a 100,000 dollars a year to maintain it. So are you ready for those kinds of expenses?

MR: You know what, we're a small town and we're pretty ingenious. We make do with not a lot of funding as it is to make great and wonderful things out here. I have got a lot of friends that are fabricators and builders and construction people that have all thought this is a great idea and have already offered to provide us with free labor and small community spirit to make the sign as best as it can be and last in our community. And I'd rather see that iconic sign in our town than land in a recycle yard somewhere.

CO: And what are you going to do with the leftover Ts?

MR: Well you know I could probably sell them to the Tom Thompson Museum [Laughter] or something like that to put some money back into the projects of getting them here moved or you know we've even had suggestions of putting the Ts in close location to the sign with a thank you to the City of Toronto for donating the letters to us.

CO: Well we'll put out the request to our listeners if anyone has an idea what they can do with a couple of giant Ts.

MR: Excellent excellent.

CO: But you do sound like it's a bustling place there in Orono. We're hearing it. So do you think this is going to bring more life into Orono because I know you lost a lot of -- you have lost a lot of businesses and whatnot since the highway got moved.

MR: Yeah I mean you know the highway was divided you know about 30 years ago but it really did cut off sort of the little exits into town that used to draw people here and we used to be a really solid self-sustaining town and we used to have you know work and live in this town and it's become a bedroom community. And over the last four years, the economy is changing and we've lost our CIBC bank. We've lost our Food Land. We've lost our LCBO and some other stores that have struggled. But right now we've got four great businesses that are deciding that you know they want to commit to our economy and they're going to try and get opened here in town and we're pretty excited with that and it's a small town we're vibrant and energetic and you know any bit that we can have to help us drop people in our community is fantastic. And I think that the giant Toronto or Orono sign with Toronto's Ts would be a great attraction for us.

CO: Okay. Well Mark I hope you get your sign and I will put out the call to our listeners if anyone's got an idea on what to do with some Ts.

MR: Excellent. I certainly appreciate your time today and the town of Orono thanks you as well.

CO: All right take care Mark.

MR: Take care.

CH: Mark Rutherford is from Orono, Ontario. He's trying to get Toronto to give the town its sign. We have more on this story on our website: cbc.ca/aih. And if you have any ideas for what could be done with those leftover Ts, let us know. Our talkback is: 416-205-5687. Or you can send us a tweet @CBCAsItHappens.

[Music]

Unforgiving Crows

CH: Three years ago in the city of Shivpuri, India, Shiva Kewat tried to save the life of a baby crow. He was too late. It died. And making matters worse some onlookers misunderstood his actions and thought he had deliberately killed the crow chick. They have never forgiven him and ever since they've made his life a living hell. An article on the website India Today lays out his despair, quote, "It died in my hands. If only I could explain it to them. I was only trying to help -- a hapless Kewat said while looking up at the skies and bracing for the fleet of swooping crows." Yes, every day for three years vengeful crows have attacked Shiva Kewat. To quote from India Today again "The daily ordeal has become a source of entertainment for his neighbours. And there is not much that can be done." Well no there isn't. Studies have shown crows can recognize human faces. Also that they remember the faces of people who were mean to them. And those same studies showed they hold grudges against the people with those faces. So poor innocent Mr. Kewat is routinely gouged and packed by unforgiving crows all because of a terrible misunderstanding. He'll be punished indefinitely by angry birds who cannot be reasoned with because they're so crows-minded.

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