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The AIH Transcript for February 6, 2020

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight...

CO: Fatal distraction. He warned of the outbreak and was told to stop -- now a Chinese doctor is dead after he himself contracted the virus. But the official story is sowing anger and doubt.

CH: Fanning the flames. Donald Trump wasted no time letting the world know how he feels about his acquittal on impeachment charges -- but a Democratic strategist says the president has only fired up his opponents to win in November.

CO: In northern British Columbia Hereditary Chiefs face arrest in their protest against the coastal gas link pipeline -- our guest, whose job it was to mediate between the sides, says it's a sad day.

CH: Going off the rails. A train carrying crude oil veers off track and bursts into flames in Saskatchewan just months after a similar accident nearby. We'll hear from a truck driver who ran to help.

CO: Ahead of their time. To capture the big stars of "Little Women" their films on set photographer decided that his equipment and his process had to click with the period.

CH: And acting the age. It's been a decade since a meme of a sad Keanu Reeves eating a sandwich exploded online, but it's making history once again in a classic Depression era photo. As It Happens. the Thursday Edition. Radio that makes Keanu observations.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: The story behind these authentic 1800s-style pictures of the Little Women cast

Coronavirus doctor

Guest: Cecilia Wang

CH: He had the courage to speak out about a mysterious new virus he saw emerging in Wuhan, China. Then after facing intimidation from local officials, Dr. Li Wenliang, when the young came down with the coronavirus himself. Earlier today, state news in China reported that Dr. Li had died. Then mysteriously, authorities backtracked, claiming he was still alive. And later, confirmation finally came that the doctor had succumbed to the virus. Cecilia Wang is a researcher at The Economist. She's been following the Chinese social media reaction to Dr. Li's story. We reached her earlier today in Shanghai -- a few minutes before Dr. Li's death was finally confirmed.

CO: Cecilia can you describe the reaction you have seen tonight to the news about Dr. Li?

CECILIA WANG: Since the news broke, I'm seeing a lot of raw emotions on China's social media --like WeChat and the Twitter-like Weibo. I'm seeing an outpouring of grief over the death of Dr. Li Wenliang and tributes to his courage -- and also mixed with a seething anger that could be described as the system. Some people are even describing it as the first national mourning on WeChat.

CO: Can you tell us about the conflicting stories that were coming out about whether Dr. Li had actually died?

CW: This is a very bizarre case. The official mouthpiece, Global Times and People's Daily both reported on it and also not just in Chinese, but also on Twitter. Their Twitter accounts both posted it but later they deleted these reports.

CO: Can you just tell us a bit of the background story of Dr. Li? I mean, he was among the first to raise concerns about the new coronavirus. When was that? And what did he do?

CW: At the end of December last year, he sent out a message in a WeChat group charge alerting his classmates. I think it was a group of his university classmates. He was saying there were seven confirmed SARS cases in a seafood market. At a time he said it was SARS because at the time we didn't know it was this new coronavirus. And a few days later, someone took a screenshot of this interaction and sent this photo to multiple group chats and then it started to circulate on the Chinese social platforms.

CO: What was the reaction on the part of the authorities to that?

CW: A few days later, the local police apprehended him and asked him to sign a document saying he understood his mistake and he would stop doing that.

CO: Stop doing what? Stop telling people that there was a potential danger to their health?

CW: What the police accused him of doing was spreading rumors. And after he was apprehended by local police, even Chinese official media reported on this story saying eight people were spreading rumors about a virus.

CO: The timeline here, we're talking about the early January at this point, right?

CW: Yes.

CO: And still at this point, the Chinese authorities are not letting their own people know or the world know that there is this potential crisis?

CW: Correct. They were even discrediting Dr. Li and the several others.

CO: How did he get sick?

CW: Allegedly he got sick for treating a patient. This is when he knew there was a virus, or at least there was this pneumonia happening at the time. He wasn't sure at the time that it was contagious.

CO: So I understand that by the time he was being diagnosed, China was still insisting there were no new cases. And this is like by January 10th. So at this point, the virus is spreading quite rapidly, isn't it?

CW: Yes. But at the time, the number was going up and more people were getting sick during that time. But the government didn't announce that it was serious -- it actually was until, I think past the 20th of January. And he started to show symptoms around 10th of January.

CO: And I understand that Dr. Lee was continuing to give interviews. He was still speaking out about what he knew, even as he was gravely ill and in the hospital. What was he saying?

CW: In an interview he said that's a healthy society not have just one voice. I think that struck a chord for a lot of people in China. And speaking out for him at first, he got apprehended. And later I think he got to a point where people realized that how serious the situation was. So people were kind of supporting him in a way to make him relatively untouchable I would say.

CO: You mentioned the outpouring of response is grief and that people are angry at the system. What are they saying about the system, the Chinese system?

CW: People right now are saying while he was alive, he didn't have the freedom to speak. Now he has passed, he doesn't have the freedom to die. So people are kind of seeing him as a symbol, as a martyr.

CO: And just to finally I understand his parents are both ill now with the virus. He has a child, a young child, and his wife is pregnant with another child. Do you know how they are? If the child and his wife are okay.

CW: What we know for sure is that Dr. Li in an earlier interview said that his parents both were confirmed of contracting this virus earlier, but we don't know how they are doing. One version is that they have been cured and have left the hospital. And the other version is they are in critical conditions. And as for his child, some are saying the wife is with her family outside of Wuhan and she is okay. And another version is saying that she is also in critical conditions after contracting this virus. So we don't have a confirmed news report on how his family is doing right now.

CO: So difficult to get straight answers. Cecilia, I know it's very late there and I appreciate you'd speak with us. Thank you.

CW: No problem. Thank you.

CH: Cecilia Wang is a researcher with The Economist. We reached her earlier today in Shanghai.

[Music]

Saskatchewan train derailment

Guest: Kyle Brown

CH: If you live in the small village of Guernsey, Saskatchewan, it was a scary sight to wake up to. Just after 6:00 am, 31 train cars derailed, starting a huge fire and sending billows of black smoke into the air. The train was carrying crude oil. And that firemen Guernsey, which is just half a kilometer from the derailment, had to be evacuated. Two months ago, another train also carrying crude oil derailed just 10 kilometers away from today's site. After this morning's accident, the federal government ordered all trains carrying dangerous goods to travel no faster than 40 kilometers an hour. Kyle Brown is a truck driver who raced to the scene. We reached him in Calgary at the airport where he just landed.

CO: Kyle when you were on the road early this morning, what was the first sign of trouble that you saw?

KYLE BROWN: Well, I mean, the first thing I saw was the big mushroom of fire in the sky.

CO: What did you think that was when you saw it?

KB: I mean, originally I thought it was a vehicle behind me. It lite up the truck from behind so much -- I thought it was another vehicle behind me. And I mean, I looked in the mirror and I could see the flames and smoke. And right away, I knew exactly what it was.

CO: As you can see it behind you. So what did you do when you saw the fire in your rear view mirror?

KB: I turned around as fast as I could. And I mean, obviously, the first concern was, is there any houses close by? I'm not particularly familiar with that area. So my first thing was, you know, was there any houses real close by? And obviously, the conductors and the engineers and all that after -- making sure that none of those guys were hurt or trapped or anything like that. Which I mean, I wouldn't have been able to do much for him anyway other than make the call to the city RCMP, the 911, and get some help for them.

CO: And so when you got there and could you see -- and I know this is early in the morning, it's still dark out -- could you see what had happened?

KB: Yeah. I mean, there was train cars almost on the road.

CO: How many cars did you see had derailed?

KB: It was very hard to tell. There was a big fire, lots of smoke. But I estimated, you know, 25 to 30 for sure.

CO: And did you see anybody who needed help?

KB: I did not. I actually came across one of the train conductors about 10 minutes after -- I was still on the phone with 911. And I could see him walking down the track with flashlights so I went checked on him and I said, you know, is all your crew counted for? You guys are okay? And he was like, yeah. He said we got radio contact with all of our crew on both ends of the train. And I said, okay, well, that's one thing that's taken care of, obviously.

CO: Could you feel the heat from this fire?

KB: I definitely could. Yeah. I passed by it originally right away and I could feel the heat on my legs through the door.

CO: Because we're talking about crude oil on fire here, right?

KB: It is.

CO: And so were you able to talk much with the conductor whom you met?

KB: Yeah, I did. I actually gave him a ride. He was putting up some flairs on the road to warn some motorists because no one would stop -- and everyone was slowing down, you know, taking their pictures and videos. And they were stopping pretty close to the flames. And I mean, I didn't even feel comfortable passing by it at 100 kilometers an hour. I don't see how they could feel comfortable stopping there.

CO: And what did he tell you about what had happened?

KB: He told me that they didn't even realize they had a derailment. They have some emergency systems in their locomotives that monitor air pressure drop and it automatically applies all brakes on the train. So that was their first indication, according to the conductor. And soon as their emergency system kicked in, obviously they looked behind them, they could see the fire and the mess and they unhooked from the cars that were still hooked up to them right away and moved away.

CO: Wow. And so the people on the train would have been with that front section that could move away.

KB: Yes.

CO: And so how quickly after that did you start to see emergency crews arriving?

KB: It was actually quite a while. I want to say probably 25 minutes to a half an hour.

CO: Volunteer firefighters coming.

KB: Yes, it is.

CO: What were they able to do when they got there?

KB: They didn't really do much. I guess they assisted the RCMP's original request, which was closing the road, keeping traffic out of it. I had actually spoken to one of the firefighters. He actually worked at the Lanigan Mine. He told me he was on his way to work. And obviously he came upon the same as I did and turned around and went back to join into the fire departments for their response. And he had actually told me he thought that they were shutting down Lanigan Mine because of the smoke. Obviously, they don't want crude oil smoke getting down into their mineshaft.

CO: Did you stay until it was light out?

KB: Just about. I did have to leave because I had to catch this flight so.

CO: Later you could see the smoke -- how thick black that smoke was once when daylight. But did you know how dense the smoke was that you were standing beside?

KB: Yeah. Yeah. You could definitely see it even in the dark. There was lots of light from the mine. So you could see how thick it was.

CO: Do you know that that's roughly the same place that there was another train derailment just about almost exactly two months ago to the day -- and there was a leak of about one and a half million liters of crude.

KB: Yeah. Yeah. I did know that.

CO: Did you ever think about that particular stretch? Why it's so problematic?

KB: I mean, I have my personal opinion, which is poor track maintenance. I mean, that's just my personal opinion.

CO: You yourself, you're a truck driver for an oil refinery, right?

KB: I am. Yes.

CO: How do you feel about trains being the main transport for carrying crude?

KB: Well, I mean, everybody that keeps on top of any of this stuff, they'll all remember the big accident in Quebec a few years ago and the loss of the town and the loss of life and people. And I mean, every town's got a [inaudible] every town that has got a set of tracks running through it when you see these crude oil trains running through.

CO: And this particular stretch, there were people living close by, but nothing like -- you're talking about Lac-Megantic and that horrible situation in that town.

KB: Yes.

CO: People have said in the past that their argument is that it's safer to go by train than by pipeline. So what do you say to that?

KB: I really don't believe that. I really don't believe that at all. There's so many different factors, so many different moving parts, trains compared to a stationary oil pipe. I just believe that an oil pipe can be serviced and maintained so much better.

CO: Well, you know what? I know you've had a very long day. You've been really helpful for us and I'm sure very helpful for those people at the train. It was great that you were there. And Kyle I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

KB: No problem.

CH: Kyle Brown is a truck driver for an oil refinery who raced to the scene of today's derailment in Saskatchewan. We reached him in Calgary.

[Music]

Little Women photographs

Guest: Wilson Webb

CH: Greta Gerwig may have been shut out of the Best Director category at this weekend's Oscars, but her movie "Little Women" is still being honored as a complex, well-made picture with five other nominations. And speaking of complex, well-made pictures, there are Wilson Webb's photographs of the movie's cast. Mr. Webb has been an on-set photographer for years. He also took behind-the-scenes shots of another major 2020 contender "Marriage Story." But never before has he shot images quite like the ones he took of Meg, Jo, Beth, and Amy March. We reached Wilson Webb in St. Paul, Minnesota.

CO: Wilson, what made you decide you going to approach the on-set photography for Little Women a little bit differently?

WILSON WEBB: As soon as I talked to Greta and she offered me the job, I just knew that this was a perfect way to use photography in the period of the film.

CO: And Greta being Greta Gerwig, who is the director of Little Women. And so how did you work on this? Like there's a process you have to go through. What's it called this photography system that you were using?

WW: Well, there's a few different ways that it's often referred to. Collodion is one term that's used a lot because that's the medium that holds the silver to be exposed by light. Wet plate is another one. Or tin type is a very famous turn back in the 1850s-1860s.

CO: How difficult is it to take photographs with this?

WW: It's quite a process. It involves a lot of steps. There is some dangerous chemicals, although they're not as bad as some other photo processes that are historically very very dangerous. But there are many many steps that if they're not followed can result in getting no image whatsoever. [Chuckles]

CO: Oh dear. Okay. [Laughs] That's no good. We've seen in the movies, the old cameras -- you are underneath the cloth, there is a flash that goes off that is blinding. Is that what we're talking about here?

WW: That is what we're talking about. We're talking about a large format camera. So it's an 8 by 10 big view camera with a big piece of glass on the back. And the lens that I'm using is a 139 year old Dallmeyer lens made in London. And there is a ton of light. There's 25,000 watt seconds of flash. When that goes off, the person sitting in front of the camera can feel a wave of heat and they can also smell the ozone that's created when the picture is taken. [Laughter]

CO: And so the camera itself, the collodion camera, is it of the era as well?

WW: Actually, no. The camera, oddly enough, is fairly new from a company called Intrepid. It's sort of wasn't the best choice, but it's what I had at the time.

CO: But the lens is circa Little Women, is it?

WW: That's correct. And it's a very large brass lens. It weighs four times as much as the camera body itself so I had to make supports and I had to kind of make sure I was going to stay steady.

CO: Wow. Okay so now you got them in for the portraits. I've seen them. They're just beautiful. What did you have to do in order to have you subjects sit for this? Each of these actors who played one of the Little Women.

WW: Well, what I did was I would have them come over to my set up, my lighting set up, and I had a darkroom, small darkroom setup also because I need to do things as we're moving along. And then we would pose -- figure out a pose -- I would focus through the camera and say, okay, now you need to sit like that until I come back. I'm going to put collodion on this piece of aluminum plate, dip it in the silver oxide, bring it back, take the picture and then go back into my darkroom, do a few other little chemical processes, and then we would dip it into the fixer. And together we would look at the image come up much like an old polaroid photo would come up.

CO: Now, is it as they would have done in the 1860s, which is the era of the story, that they have to stay very very still throughout without moving an eyelash?

WW: They only had to sit for maybe about 30 seconds.

CO: Okay. Now, the other thing that makes them very authentic is that nobody is smiling. And as we know from photos of that era, from the 19th century, that everyone looks grim. I mean, is there a reason why nobody smiles in these pictures?

WW: Yes, there's a couple reasons. Most important, the biggest reason was at the time, photography was fairly new and it was very serious. And to have a photo taken of yourself would cost a considerable amount of money. And what photography did at the very beginning was they were emulating portraits that were painted. So you also didn't see a lot of classic portraits where people were smiling. So this is mostly a stylistic reason, but it's also because it's hard to hold an expression for 20-30 seconds.

CO: Now, everyone is very happy with these photos. How do you feel about -- do you think you got what you wanted from this process?

WW: I think yes, I'm very happy with how they came out. Although if I was trying to pass as a photographer in 1860s I would probably be laughed out of the studio. And the reason being is all the things that make them interact now, the textures and weird shading and bending that you can kind of see in the portraits are interesting to us now because they're so desensitised because of digital crisp-sharp photos. But back in the day, those are attributes that would have been seen as a mistake and would not have been presentable whatsoever. But I'm happy.

CO: And do you think that the March sisters and Marmee March -- do you think you've captured probably if they really were people, what they would have looked like?

WW: I think I got as close as I could with the tools and the time provided, yeah. [Laughs] If I could go and do it again, I might change a few things. But that's always going to be the case. They're much closer to how they would have been than I was afraid they would not be. [Laughter]

CO: Okay. You know what we're going to let the listeners be the judge and we're going to give them the links they need to go and see these really beautiful photographs. And we'll let them decide because clearly you're not going to judge your own work [laughs] as generously as they are. Wilson it's great to talk to you. Thank you.

WW: Thank you Carol. Take care.

CH: Wilson Webb is the on-set photographer for 2020 Oscar contenders "Little Women" and "Marriage Story." We reached him in St. Paul, Minnesota. You can see Mr. Webb's photos of the "March Women" on our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Jim Diodati

CH: He's more accustomed to looking for votes than for love. But an ad on an online dating site makes it look like the Mayor of Niagara Falls, Ontario, was all about kissing mature singles instead of kissing babies. The trouble is, he never signed up for that site. His photos were used without his permission and are likely associated with a fraudulent account. Mayor Jim Diodati says people have posed as him on dating sites for years and he's tried to shrug it off. But now they've crossed a line after bringing his kids into the picture. The CBC's Daniel Taekema spoke with Mayor Diodati about the situation.

SOUNDCLIP

JIM DIODATI: On one hand, you feel invaded and then another and you're flattered. So, you know, I'm not really sure how to take it. But I had quite a number of friends screen-shotting this and sending it to me and asking me "What's up?" And I sent back question marks. And finally, I am like it's probably better I get ahead of this and deal with it and we'll see where it goes. I didn't expect it to pick up steam. I thought it faded away. It's been happening over the years. So I'm in my tenth year as mayor and it started happening within the first couple of years. You know, I would have strangers from the United States email me and say you should be aware that someone's using your identity. So the whole thing seemed odd. I didn't know how to take it. I felt kind of weird about it. But what really rubbed me the wrong way was when they used my kids. So I got three kids: 13, 16 and 18. And someone on plenty of fish is using pictures of my kids to market their own dating potential. And that just was creepy.

DANIEL TAEKEMA: Yeah, I gotcha. So this is a bit of a personal question, but are you looking for love? Is there any potential kind of crossover confusion there?

JIM DIODATI: [Laughs] Well, who's not looking for love? But I'm not. I've never been on a dating website and I have nothing against them. You know, I'm a single dad. You know, three kids. You know, I got a busy busy job. A busy life.

DANIEL TAEKEMA: Is there a bit of a silver lining in this in that maybe, you know, even though you're not on these dating sites, these ads can work out for you maybe.

JIM DIODATI: [Laughs] Well, you know what? What do they say in politics? You know, any news is good news just spell my name right.

CH: That's Niagara Falls, Ontario Mayor Jim Diodati speaking with the CBC's Daniel Taekema.

[Music]

Part 2: Impeachment latest

Impeachment latest

Guest: Kelly Dietrich

CH: Donald Trump is celebrating today. In fact, you could go as far as "gloating." Yesterday, of course, the Senate acquitted the US President on two impeachment charges. And this afternoon, Mr. Trump gave an hour-long victory speech that has been described by news outlets as "freewheeling" and "vindictive." He made fun of his rivals, apologize to his family for what they'd been put through, and thanked his colleagues who defended him throughout the process. Here's a clip.

SOUNDCLIP

DONALD TRUMP: This is really not a news conference. It's not a speech. It's not anything. It's just we're sort of...it's a celebration because we have something that just worked out. I mean, it worked out. We went through hell unfairly, did nothing wrong. Did nothing wrong. I've done things wrong in my life, I will admit, not purposely. But I've done things wrong. But this is what the end result is.

[People cheer]

CH: That was Donald Trump speaking earlier today. Kelly Dietrich is a strategist and the founder and CEO of the National Democratic Training Committee, which offers training to Democrats who want to run for office or work on campaigns. He's in Chicago.

CO: Mr. Dietrich we just heard Donald Trump doing his victory lap. So what's the mood among Democrats today?

KELLY DIETRICH: I would say the mood is a mix of the continued frustration, anger, hope, and a determination to make a change in November.

CO: And what could you possibly do to make a change in November at this point? Because, I mean, a guest we had on last night, a Republican, said that this is Mr. Trump's best week ever. That he is high in the polls. He is lauding the economy --he's taking credit for, not all of it is his. But the economy is going booming in your country. What could you possibly point to as something that you can look to as optimism?

KD: Well, as we learned in 2016, elections have consequences. And 2020 is not 2016. The then candidate Trump, came through that election proclaiming himself as the most successful businessman ever. People were able to project onto him what they wanted. Now, the president has a record. That record is filled with lies, mistruths, inviting foreign powers to interfere in our election. And while the president may be taking a, quote unquote, "victory lap" today, a vast majority of this country knows and understands, even if the Senate did not vote to acquit, that he used his presidency for personal gain and corruption.

CO: All right. But it seems that. Well, first of all, he has the highest support in the Gallup poll ever since his beginning of his presidency. He's now close to half. And that a large number of Americans say, well, whatever, presidents do that -- politicians do whatever they have to do. They don't seem to have a problem with what he was impeached for. So you're up against a lot of people who don't seem to think this is a big deal.

KD: Welcome to American politics. Half the country is going to disagree with the other half. And this election in November which is a political eternity from now. And while he may be, quote unquote, "riding high" at 49 percent, which is the highest he has been -- there is a long way to go. And this election is never going to have 51 or even 52 percent of the people agree upon a candidate. This election will be won in a few key battleground states that matter most. We believe that a message, a continued message, from the Democrats of health care access for everyone, that climate change is not a myth, that issues that affect the real voter are what matter. And while Republicans like to point out 2016, I'd like to point out 2018, when the Democratic wave swept over the country at every level. At the National Democratic Training Committee, we've been on the ground in all 50 states. And in every state we have seen a continued amount of enthusiasm, of overwhelming engagement, of purpose that Democrats are eager to get out and work and correct what they think was a horrible mistake the country made in 2016.

CO: Do you think that there has been a reliance on the part of Democrats on the idea that that Donald Trump will expose himself, that he is his own worst enemy, that he will self-destruct, and that's what's going to happen and to the advantage of Democrats? Do you think there's to some degree, if not largely, a reliance on the idea that Mr. Trump is his own worst enemy?

KD: I would agree. I think that many in the Democratic Party would believe that the self-destructing [chuckles] the self-destructing efforts and actions he's already taken would have been enough to remove any other president from office. But the president has shown that the normal rules and traditions don't apply to him.

CO: So, in fact, not only will he not self-destruct. He appears to be indestructible.

KD: Well, I wouldn't go so far as indestructible. I think that in the current system, it is set up where his party continues to put their own political power ahead of what's best for the country. So at this point, the true referendum on Donald Trump will be the elections in November 2020. And I am optimistic and feel good about the Democratic chances.

CO: But what do the Democrats have to offer in November 2020? Where's the leadership? I know you're in the process of looking for that. But where is someone who's going to pull your party together? It seems even among the candidates who are put forward, divisions and dysfunctional events like Iowa.

KD: Well, I would challenge the assumption, the question that the party is divided. It is not. It is having a primary process. And again, after working in all 50 states, we see this continually that Democrats like a lot of these candidates, they may be voting for Warren or Biden or Bernie, but they are willing to work for whoever gets the nomination. The problems in Iowa have to do with the Iowa Democratic Party and not the party overall. The party overall is united behind a mission of winning in November 2020.

CO: All right. If you have Joe Biden as your leader, he is going to be attacked by Donald Trump as being corrupt along with his son. If you have Bernie Sanders as your leader or some others who are on that same left side of Bernie Sanders, he is going to be attacked by Donald Trump as being socialists. How do you defend that?

KD: Well, no matter who comes through the nomination, the Republican Party and Donald Trump are going to label them a socialist. They're going to say things like they want to take your health care away and give it to people that don't look like you. Unfortunately, those kinds of attacks are effective in certain parts of the country with certain voters. Unfortunately, they use emotion to create divisiveness, fear as a motivation for people to go out and vote. Democrats need to learn and understand that we can't use facts, figures and logic to motivate people. We need to use emotion as well. Not the same emotions the Republican Party uses. But emotions -- when we talk about issues like health care, when we talk about issues like climate change. When my daughter goes outside to play, I have a six year old daughter, when she goes outside to play I shouldn't be worried that she's going to get asthma because the coal plant they opened up down the street has been polluting the air. And then I can't get her covered because she has a pre-existing condition on health care that is too expensive for it. We need to personalize these stories and make it compelling to the voter.

CO: We will be watching, Mr. Dietrich. Thank you.

KD: Hey, thank you very much.

CH: That was Democratic strategist Kelly Dietrich in Chicago.

[Music]

Lie Zhang

CH: It came down to the wire -- but Megan Millward and Lie Zhang are finally heading home. Today, the Montreal couple and their two young kids were among 176 people who boarded a chartered plane out of Wuhan, China. They're expected to arrive at an army base in Trenton, Ontario, early tomorrow morning, where they'll be put under quarantine for 14 days. Mr. Zhang was not the only permanent resident given a ride back to Canada. There were 13 in all, but his spot wasn't confirmed until Thursday night local time. CBC News Net host Suhana Meharchand spoke to the couple afterward as they waited by the gate.

SOUNDCLIP

MEGAN MILLWARD: Everybody seems pretty relaxed. Relieved probably. They're already lining up to head to the gate. We're thrilled that we're both here together and the kids are really excited because they're moving walkways and vending machines and things to keep them busy. So everybody is in a pretty good mood.

LIE ZHANG: We're grateful for coming back to the Canadian soil.

SUHANA MEHARCHAND: Lie, I understand there was a question mark about your return to Canada. You are a permanent resident. There was a lot of talk about whether permanent residents will be allowed to board. How did that come about for you that you were at the airport and ready to get on that plane?

LIE ZHANG: You know, I decided that I have to drive my wife and two kids to the airport. Why don't I just wait here? Maybe there is a chance. So then I waited and waited. We were the last four to register on the plane. And we told them our situation, you know, the kids are still too young. And then they called...

MEGAN MILLWARD: The global affairs.

LIE ZHANG: Global affairs. And also they talked to the Beijing embassy as well. And they finally confirmed that, yes, you are ready to go. So that was great great news yeah.

MEGAN MILLWARD: We didn't really think anything was going to happen because it was -- I don't know -- it was maybe 5 or 6 pm. So apparently because we came in the wrong door at the airport, if we had come in the proper departure level door, they would have barred him entry because his name was not on the list at that point. But we parked the car in another parking lot and came in on the wrong floor. And so it was just like completely...they said, oh, you're in the wrong place, but we'll get you to the right place. So he probably wouldn't have been able to board the flight even if they had called me to say, okay, he can go because he would not been in the airport. It was just pure luck that we got in by the wrong door.

CH: That's Montreal couple Megan Millward and Lie Zhang speaking to CBC News Net before boarding a government chartered plane out of Wuhan, China. A second chartered flight carrying the remaining Canadians is expected to leave Wuhan on Sunday.

[Music]

Coastal GasLink protests

Guest: Nathan Cullen

CH: It's been a day of upheaval at the site of a proposed pipeline project through northern BC. For weeks Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs and their supporters have been demonstrating against the Coastal GasLink project. And now RCMP officers have started making arrests. This morning's raid comes after talks broke down between the chiefs, the government, and the companies behind the proposed pipeline. Former NDP MP Nathan Cullen is the government-appointed liaison between the parties involved in those talks. We reached him in Smithers, BC.

CO: Mr. Cullen as far as you know what happened this morning at Gidimt'en check point?

NATHAN CULLEN: What we understand is that there's various kilometers, you know, as you're referred to, that are along this forest service road. The police moved in at one of those kilometers to remove people. I don't believe Wet'suwet'en but some supporters of Unist'ot'en and the Wet'suwet'en. And then beyond that kilometer point, there's a number of trees and such that are lying on the roads that have been put there some weeks ago that I believe the police are then seeking to remove as well. And then there's a camp further on. And then much further on 66 kilometers down the road there is a healing center as well, which is near a bridge that has been a lot of contention throughout this whole conflict.

CO: And so all the people who are in those places, those facilities, have they all been arrested?

NC: I don't believe all of them. However, I believe the number I'm working with is six or seven. Some people chose not to be arrested. I believe one person was a member of the media and they were returned back to an earlier point in the road. Essentially, the exclusion zone, I believe the RCMP refer to it as. And in that exclusion zone, they removed people who are not there. I think there's working on an access protocol for the chiefs to be able to enter -- the hereditary chiefs of the Wet'suewet'en.

CO: And what do you know about the timing of this? Why now? Why have the RCMP moved on those facilities and arrested people now?

NC: So this was all stemming from an injunction, as you know, from December 31st -- a court order to clear this pathway for this company CGL to go in and build this pipeline. And so this past week, the Wet'suwet'en were in a conversation with the Province of British Columbia to see if there was some way to avoid today, which is a very bad day. You know, being in this territory, settling in this territory with my family, this is not a good day. And this day was...everyone thought to avoid it. I don't think anyone wanted it. So why today? Well, those talks were unsuccessful. Wet'suwet'en chiefs continue to talk to the province about other things and opening up what's called a Wiggus process. And that is something small but hopeful in the future. Because there's going to be another day. And I sincerely hope and I think that's everyone's intention, that the conversation between BC and the Wet'suwet'en in particular will continue and we don't end up in this position again.

CO: But you've been appointed as the liaison between the province, the Wet'suwet'en, hereditary chiefs, the company. You have the trust of all those different parties. Do they share with you? I'm sure that the chiefs certainly share it. But do you think the government, the company, would they agree with your assessment that it has been a very bad day?

NC: I think that this day is happening at all, is not what anybody wanted. And I, again, won't speak for any of the parties, but the efforts that were put in to try to avoid this day. I think good faith efforts. I think they were sincere. I wouldn't have done the small part that I was doing if I thought there was insincerity and that people were trying to end up with this enforcement and this day where people are being arrested. This can be quite traumatising for people that interactions with the police over many years and generations have left a real mark. This is not the way we want to be together. I can say that from this other point of view. What happens next is also of importance because of the Wet'suewet'en aren't going anywhere. And the issues that underpin what's happening today will not be resolved by what's happening today. They'll be resolved by talk at a table that we can come to some point of reconciliation between the parties. And so there's tons of work to be done. It might sound strange today, I feel incredibly shaken by this and sad. But I can feel hopeful too because knowing these chiefs and the dignity and the authority they have and wanting to believe that the government in Victoria wants to reconcile, we also, I would humbly suggest, need Ottawa to step up who have been to this point completely to the side and that's unfortunate because I know Mr. Trudeau has made significant promises to Indigenous peoples to be there and do the hard work. Well, this hard work is needed here as much as it's needed anywhere in the country.

CO: Why do you feel shaken and sad today?

NC: Because of the uncertainty when emotions are running so high. When people feel so passionately about this and rightfully so. And then when you bring in significant police into an area, it all becomes uncertain. You can write down all the protocols and agree to all the steps that hopefully are taken to maintain safety for people. And yet it is uncertain still. And I have been personally too well aware of Canada's history when things go wrong. And I know a significant number of people out on that territory. And yet my discomfort or sadness is absolutely nothing compared to what's going on for my Wet'suwet'en friends who again, as I talked about, had a history with government and with police that is so different than yours and mine. And those are the folks that I'm most feeling for today, because we wish for something better. We work for something better. And I still that hope that that better is really possible despite what's happening right now.

CO: Mr. Cullen, thank you.

NC: Thank you Carol.

CH: Nathan Cullen is the government-appointed liaison between the website and hereditary chiefs, the government and the Coastal GasLink pipeline. He was in Smithers, BC. Earlier today CBC spoke with Wet'suwet'en hereditary chief Na'Moks about this morning's arrests.

SOUNDCLIP

NA'MOKS: We have not done anything illegal. The illegal actions are being taken on by the RCMP, the elected governments -- provincial and federal. And they're being steered by industry. We are doing nothing illegal. We are following our law: protecting clean water, our food sources, our sacred sites, our village sight. And yet this is how they treat us in a supposedly free and democratic country. This is not an example of democracy. And it sure is not an example of reconciliation. They don't realize the world is watching what they are doing -- the second time now, to our nation, to our people, to our lands. How could that be?

CH: That's Wet'suwet'en hereditary chief Na'Moks speaking with CBC earlier today. Chief Na'Moks mentioned today's arrests happened just over a year after RCMP officers arrested 14 people protesting the very same pipeline on Wet'suwet'en territory.

[Music]

Lunch Atop A Skyscraper with Keanu Reeves

CH: In September of 1932, someone took a photo far above the streets of New York City. It's famously known as "Lunch Atop a Skyscraper" and it depicts 11 iron workers on a girder, one of whom is enjoying a sandwich. In May of 2010, someone took a photo on the streets of New York City. It's famously known as "Sad Keanu" and it depicts one actor, Keanu Reeves, on a park bench enjoying a sandwich. Or judging by his expression, enduring a sandwich. The first picture symbolizes hope for a world recovering from the Great Depression. The second picture symbolizes despair for a handsome man recovering from his own lunch. The only thing they have in common is they both feature one half eaten sandwich. So three things really stick out when you see Lunch Atop a Skyscraper as it appeared in a Grade 10 history textbook in Ukraine. First, there are two half eaten sandwiches. Second, there are 12 men on the girder. And third, the 12th man is Keanu Reeves. You see? Well, okay. So in 2010, Sad Keanu became a meme. People photoshopped, the sad looking Mr. Reeves into all kinds of situations. Including into that famous photo: Lunch Atop a Skyscraper. And that is the picture that ended up in the Ukrainian high school text book illustrating a chapter about the United States between the wars. The publisher now says that it was a design error. The professor who wrote the textbook, however, says he put it in on purpose to appeal to today's youth. If that's true, he sounds like a fun, generous guy with a bit of a meme streak.

[Music]

Huseyin Celil

CH: Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor have been detained in China for 14 months. Huseyin Celil has been detained there for 14 years. Like the Michaels, Huseyin Celil a Canadian citizen. But he hasn't received anywhere near the same kind of media attention lately. Although the Uyghur man's name did spark an interesting exchange at a special committee hearing yesterday. Here's Conservative MP Garnett Genius questioning Canada's Ambassador to China, Dominic Barton, yesterday.

SOUNDCLIP

GARNETT GENIUS: Could you share a little bit about your engagement on the Celil case?

DOMINIC BARTON: On the what?

GARNETT GENIUS: The Celil case?

DOMINIC BARTON: Celil?

GARNETT GENIUS: That's the name of a person -- of a Canadian detained...

DOMINIC BARTON: Oh sorry. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Who's been in detention for about 15 years.

GARNETT GENIUS: Yes. Yes.

DOMINIC BARTON: I've looked into that case. And Huseyin -- I call him Huseyin -- has basically, because he's not a Canadian citizenship -- we are not allowed to provide...we aren't able to get access to him on a consular services site. We've tried. Because he's someone I would like to see. I know it's been a long standing file. But...

GARNETT GENIUS: Mr. Celil actually is a Canadian citizen.

CH: Conservative MP Garnett Genius speaking to Canada's Envoy to China, Dominic Barton, yesterday at a special committee on Canada-China relations. Mr. Genius had some follow ups for the government today in Question Period. Here he is lobbing questions at the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Francois-Philippe Champagne.

SOUNDCLIP

GARNETT GENIUS: Mr. Speaker, yesterday during Question Period, the prime minister called Ambassador Dominic Barton, a deep expert in how we're going to move forward on improving the situation of Canadians in China. But when asked about the detention of Huseyin Celil, Barton claimed that Celil was not a Canadian citizen. Celil's citizenship is not acknowledged by China because he happens to be a dual national, but a Canadian is a Canadian. Does the prime minister still have confidence in his ambassador? And will he set the ambassador straight about Mr. Celil's citizenship?

FRANCOIS-PHILIPPE CHAMPAGNE: Mr. Speaker, Canadians would agree that a Canadian is a Canadian. I am happy that on this side of the House we understand that. We are deeply concerned. We are deeply concerned about Mr. Celil, Mr. Speaker. And we will continue to raise his case at every opportunity at senior levels Mr. Speaker. We will continue to call upon the Chinese government to give Canadian official consular access in order to undermine his well-being and offer him assistance like we will do for every Canadian Mr. Speaker.

SPEAKER: The Member for Sherwood Park-Fort Saskatchewan.

GARNETT GENIUS: The question was not about buzzwords. It was about citizenship. The ambassador told the committee yesterday that this Canadian citizen who has been in prison for 15 years and has never met his youngest son, was not a Canadian citizen. So could the minister stand at his place at the very least, and set the ambassador straight. Tell us that he believes Mr. Celil to be a citizen and tell him that he will call the ambassador and tell him to recognize publicly that Canadian citizenship of this long-detained Canadian?

FRANCOIS-PHILIPPE CHAMPAGNE: Mr. Speaker, I think everyone in this House recognizes that Mr. Celil is a Canadian. We will always stand up for Canadians. We recognize he is a Canadian. We will provide consular assistance. We will continue to assist him, like we would do for every Canadian around the world Mr. Speaker.

CH: That was Foreign Affairs Minister Francois-Philippe Champagne responding to questions from Conservative MP Garnett Genius about Huseyin Celil, a Uyghur Canadian man who's been detained for 14 years in China.

[Music]

Part 3: The 1st LGBTQ pair to dance at Vienna Opera Ball are challenging a 200-year tradition

McMaster researcher allegations

Guest: Kate Laskowski

CH: He's a rock star in the world of research who's received millions of dollars in public funding. But now there's a much harsher spotlight on Jonathan Pruitt and his work. Mr. Pruitt is a Canada 150 research chair who was recruited from the US. He's now an associate professor at McMaster University in Hamilton, Ontario. He's a behavioral ecologist who specializes in studying interactions between invertebrates, especially social spiders. But in recent weeks, some of his former collaborators have questioned his methods. They say data he provided contains duplications and other irregularities. Among them is Kate Laskowski. She's an assistant professor at the University of California Davis. And she's retracted two studies she completed with Mr. Pruitt. We reached her in Davis, California.

CO: Professor Laskowski how difficult a decision was it for you to retract two of your studies with another one in the works?

KATE LASKOWSKI: Once I realized that I couldn't trust the results of the paper based on the fact that there is so many irregularities in the data -- honestly, the decision to retract was fairly easy at that point.

CO: And how did you come to not trust the results? What was it that tipped you off?

KL: Well, this whole thing started, when I received a email from a colleague asking about the data that was publicly available with the paper that was published in the American Naturalist, and he said that they had noticed that there was more duplicate values in the data than you would expect. And at that point, I asked my coauthor Jonathan about it. And his explanation was that the spiders were actually measured in blocks of multiple spiders being observed at one time. And so if two spiders said the behavior at the same time, they got the same score, the same value. And that's what these duplicate values were.

CO: When you say Jonathan, you mean Jonathan Pruitt -- the academic in the middle of this controversy. He is a behavioral ecologist. He uses spiders to test ideas about the behavior of these animals in response to environmental and social pressures. So what were the numbers that you were looking at?

KL: The values that we were looking at, it was latency for the spiders to recover after a simulated predator attack. So they would put a spider in a little arena and then they'd puff it with some air. And the spider uniformly huddles -- they will pull their legs and they'll go really still. And then the behavior he measured was how long does it take for them to recover and start moving again.

CO: And what was strange about these values, these numbers?

KL: So these latencies -- Jonathan recorded them to two decimal places. So to the hundredth of a second. And there was multiple values that were exactly the same down to one hundredth of a second. And so the initial question was, how is it possible that multiple spiders could do this behavior at the exact same time?

CO: And you asked Professor Pruitt about that. What did he say to you?

KL: Yeah. So I asked him about this and he said that the duplicate values are a result of the spiders being measured in blocks. And so what this means is -- I had initially thought that the spiders were measured one at a time and every spider had its own stopwatch. But Jonathan said that the spiders were measured, you know, 10 to 30, I believe he said spiders were put out at once. They were all scared at the same time and then using a single stopwatch he measured how quickly the spiders recovered. So if two spiders recovered at basically the same time, he wrote down the same value for both of them.

CO: So why didn't that satisfy you?

KL: Well, yes, that's the thing. So I started to dig back into the data. But what I actually found that these duplicate values were all over the data set. They weren't in the same observation. Sometimes they're observation one, sometimes they're observation five. And the other thing that was really worrying is that the design of the experiment, we measured the animals five times before we applied this treatment and then five times after. And the treatment lasted for five weeks. So these pre and post values are supposed to be five weeks apart. And I actually found duplicate values that spanned these pre and post values, meaning that a block design absolutely cannot account for these duplicate values that we're seeing

CO: At what point did you realize that you were not the only academic who was questioning the results from Professor Pruitt's work?

KL: Not really until the first retraction became public. So then I had several of Jonathan's current and former students or post-docs reach out to me and ask me, you know, what's going on? And I told them, look at your data. Here are the things that I found in my data. And pretty quickly, several of them got back to me and told me that they had found similar patterns.

CO: A reporter reached Professor Pruitt, who was doing field work right now and difficult to get in touch with. But this one reporter from Science, the journal, contacted him and he said that errors can happen in data management. So is that a fair explanation?

KL: I mean, he is not wrong. Errors do happen in data management all the time and we try to catch them, obviously, before publication. The problem, though, is the irregularities or the anomalies or whatever you want to call it in the data sets that at least that I've seen. They're big. They're quite dramatic. And so to me, they could be caused by errors. But that means that the best case scenario is that Jonathan has been very careless with how he collects and manages his data in a very systematic way considering how many papers are affected.

CO: This one academic who suggested that this could be the result of colossal oversight on the one hand. But then it also strays into the question of intent, of the intention of Professor Pruitt, as to why this. Was it just because he was sloppy or because this got in the way of where he was taking his research? Where are you leaning in that debate?

KL: I'd really rather not say my opinion at this point.

CO: But do you understand that that is the discussion that's probably being had at this point?

KL: I mean, so like I said, the best case scenario at this point is that Jonathan has been incredibly careless in how he collects and manages data, which still means that these papers are not trustworthy. On the worst case scenarios, obviously, that there is some intent to fabricate data to get particular results, which is far more upsetting, I think.

CO: It matters a great deal here in Canada because he is in a research chair, a very important one, where there are millions of dollars in public funds that have been entrusted to him. What do you think should happen at this point?

KL: I think the things that should happen are happening in that the scientific community as a whole is -- I mean, the response from them has been, I think, incredible in how hard everyone is working and kind of banding together to really investigate all of his data and figure out what data sets can be trusted and which ones seem to be showing problems. So from a scientific perspective, that's a good thing and the right move. And then I also know that all of his universities that he's worked out have been contacted. And it's my understanding that they are moving forward with investigations. And so that's the right move. They now have to decide what happened and what should happen next.

CO: We will leave it there. I appreciate speaking with you, Professor Laskowski.

KL: Great. Thanks Carol.

CH: Kate Laskowski is an assistant professor at the University of California Davis. She recently retracted two studies that involved data provided by Jonathan Pruitt. We requested a response from Mr. Pruitt, but we haven't heard back by airtime. In interviews with other media, he has denied fabricating the data. We also contacted McMaster University, which says its research integrity policy is activated when any research integrity allegation is made. But the confidentiality rules prohibit anyone there from discussing specific cases.

[Music]

Kirk Douglas

CH: Kirk Douglas had a lot of imitators. That is a lot of people who imitated his distinct, intense style speaking. Including my father. But the imitations were the sincerest form of flattery, of a ruggedly handsome actor who played strong willed individualists and tough guys. He only won one Oscar -- an honorary award in 1995. But he was a Hollywood legend regardless. Kirk Douglas died yesterday at home in Beverly Hills, California. He was 103 years old. His career lasted over 70 years, making Mr. Douglas one of the last movie stars from Hollywood's Golden Age. He brought his trademark intensity to classics like "Lust for Life" and "Paths of Glory.' But he's best known for his starring role in the 1960 film "Spartacus." And beyond his indelible onscreen performance in that movie, he played an important role off screen by hiring writer Dalton Trumbo, who'd been blacklisted during the McCarthy era. In 1983, while Kirk Douglas was in Alberta shooting the film "Draw," he spoke with CBC host Vicki Gabereau on the show "Variety Tonight" about the significance of the Western movie genre.

SOUNDCLIP

KIRK DOUGLAS: That's part of the business to be doing things that get press -- hopefully things that become exciting, things that people want to see. And to be here in Alberta shooting a Western that I've wanted to shoot for 10 years and finally seeing it being made is quite exciting to me.

VICKI GABEREAU: Did you own this picture? Did you own the...

KIRK DOUGLAS: Yes. This was a script written by Stanley Mann. And about 10 years ago, I took an option on it. I was going to do it with Burt Lancaster and we talked about it. And at that time, everybody kept saying, no, no. Anything to do with the West is out. But I always loved it. Over the years, I've tried doing it, but I've had those experiences before. It took me 12 years before my son finally helped me get the production of One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest made. So the fact that people reject things in our profession don't always mean they're right, because very often the heads of studios in Hollywood have never made a movie. They say yes or no and they've never made a movie. So I think sometimes you have to be patient. So it's gratifying that something that you've been excited about, as I have been about Draw is now being shot.

VICKI GABEREAU: But what about the Western? What was the last Western made of any consequence -- was it Butch Cassidy?

KIRK DOUGLAS: I would think so, yes. And there are some similarities with that to Draw in that it has a lot of humor. It's real bullets, but real laughs. It's with a lot of interesting characters. The last movie I made I think was with -- Western -- was with John Wayne, The War Wagon. Which was a very successful picture. A Western is something classical. It's really a short period in American and Canadian history. So only about 25-30 years. But it's something that captures the imagination of people all over the world, wherever I've traveled.

CH: That was actor Kirk Douglas speaking with Vicki Gabereau on the programme Variety Tonight in 1983. Mr. Douglas died on Wednesday. He was a 103 years old.

[Music]

Vienna Opera Ball

Guest: Sophie Grau & Iris Klopfer

CH: Sophie Grau and Iris Klopfer are not a couple in real life. They just wanted to dance together and now everyone else wants them to dance together too. In two weeks, they'll be performing at the prestigious Vienna Opera Ball. They'll be the first queer dance pair to waltz at the event in its history, which has a long history. The Vienna Opera Ball dates back to the early 1800s. All the city's fanciest people get dressed to the nines to attend it. It's just tradition. And tradition is one explanation for why some people aren't welcoming the duo's dance. We reached Sophie Grau in Stuttgart, Germany. And Iris Klopfer in Moglingen, Germany.

CO: Sophie I want to start with you. Why did the two of you decide that you're going to apply to dance at the Vienna Opera Ball as a couple?

SOPHIE GRAU: We saw videos of the past years and looked at the ensemble dancing and looked at the opera. And it all looks so nice and it looks so beautiful. And we've both fallen out of touch with ballroom dancing and really wanted to get back into it. And we just got inspired by looking at just the pictures and the videos and decided, "why not apply?" "Why not try?"

CO: Just maybe describe what it looks like. People have seen, I guess, versions of this, but there are a lot of couples dancing at the same time in this event. Just describe what it looks like Sophie.

SOPHIE GRAU: There's about 150 couples. And one of them is wearing a traditional black suit with a white shirt underneath and the other's wearing a white ball gown. So it's very symmetrical and they're all doing the same routine in different formations that get changed every year. So it's not the same dance. And with the combination of the Opera House, which has great lighting and a really historic building, it's just the perfect ball to go to.

CO: How did you decide what roles the two of you would play at the dance?

SOPHIE GRAU: Well, I'm more comfortable in that situation. I'm non-binary.

CO: And this is Sophie speaking.

SOPHIE GRAU: Yes. And in that situation, I just felt more comfortable in imagining myself in a suit. And so we went for that. Yeah. Also I have short hair so I don't even think I could wear the crown.

CO: [Laughs]

IRIS KLOPFER: Yeah. To be honest. Now, it is Iris speaking. I'm very comfortable in being a cis woman and like wearing a ball gown. Like I've been to many many balls before. And I just very much like wearing a ball gown and I have the longer hair. And actually today we received a tutorial for our hairstyle because everybody needs to have the same hairstyle. And like, I think my hair length right now is like the bare minimum on which you could do this hairstyle.

CO: It's very structured, isn't it? I mean, this is the white ball gown that you have to wear Iris. And there's the black tuxedo. Absolutely the same as every other male dancer there you have to wear for this Sophie. So there's some lifting you've got to do. Are you strong enough to lift Iris?

SOPHIE GRAU: That's kind of been a thing. I mean, I'm ready to try and lift her, but I don't know what the pose would be. But the funny thing is, last year was the first time that they introduced the lift and it was a very conservative basic lift and only a third of the dancers did it. So people have been talking to us about there being another lift and I haven't heard anything. Iris have you?

IRIS KLOPFER: I don't. Also, I have like some background of doing acrobatics. And so he said the lift they did last year was not that hard. And I mean, we've been dancing around together for a while and I think we would manage to do the one they did last year. So I think it's fine.

CO: Now, the politics of this. Because the Vienna Opera Ball has been around since 1935, this specific one. But this Austrian ballroom dancing has been around -- this has been a 19th century event. So a lot of pushback, right? People are not happy to see a queer couple do this dance. How do you respond to the criticism you've had?

SOPHIE GRAU: I have to say, I haven't seen an organized large push back. There's been some people speaking out about, you know, tradition and their opinions on this. We've said that really ball used to be about introducing your children who were now eligible to be married, to then marry them off, which isn't the purpose of the Viennese Opera Ball anymore. So tradition has already changed several times in the past. So why not change it again?

CO: There is one particular fellow who is really incensed that you're going to be together. And this is a guy named Richard Lugner, a property magnate, I understand very very wealthy man who told Der Spiegel that the two of you have no business at the opening of the opera ball. You are destroying the ball's reputation and should be avoided. Well, who is Richard Lugner and does he have any influence, any sway at the opera? And I understand he actually does pay the women to be his mates at this dance. Have you heard that?

BOTH: Yeah. Yeah.

IRIS KLOPFER: And of course, like he have offered that I think Lindsey Vonn should have been his date this year, but she canceled. And now he's going with, I believe, an American actress. So, I mean, he has had more trouble with his date than we had with our date. [Laughter]

CO: So you're not daunted by being out there on the floor with Richard Lugner?

IRIS KLOPFER: I mean, he's not going to be on the dance floor when we're opening the opera ball. And like Sophie said in the beginning, the opera house is really, really big. There's, I believe, 11 dance floors. I mean, he's not the youngest anymore. And I don't think he will be dancing as much as we are going to do it. [Laughs]

CO: There is competition, right, in this. So how do you think you're going to perform with the others? Because it seems to be some of them have been doing this for a long time.

SOPHIE GRAU: I mean, we've been dancing for a long time as well. And even though we've never been sort of an official dancing pair at an actual school, we've still on our own we have a lot of dancing experience and we've danced together on and off for the last five years whenever we could. Yeah. So we're not newbies at this.

CO: Iris -- you're undaunted by -- I would be terrified. I would definitely get the steps wrong. Are you confident you can perform this dance?

IRIS KLOPFER: So I've been dancing -- like I've been into gymnastics and rhythmic gymnastics and doing competitions there since I was like eight years old, I think. And of course, I'm nervous. Who wouldn't be? Like this event is going to be on TV in I don't know how many countries. But alone in Germany, it's I think three TV programs. So, yeah.

CO: Well, it sounds very exciting. And I wish you both great great success in this. And a lot of fun.

IRIS KLOPFER: Thank you very much.

CO: Good to talk to both of you. Bye bye Sophie. Bye Iris.

BOTH: Bye.

CH: We reached Sophie Grau in Stuttgart. And Iris Klopfer in Molingen, Germany. And you can read more about their story on our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Ideas Promo: George Steiner

CH: Coming up on "Ideas" tonight -- after As It Happens -- a special episode dedicated to George Steiner. The celebrated cultural and literary critic, died on Tuesday at the age of 90. In 1974, Mr. Steiner delivered the CBC Massey Lectures, which were called "Nostalgia for the Absolute" -- a phrase with special resonance in today's political climate. And the title wasn't the only prescient thing about the lectures. Here's George Steiner on how big political movements can look a lot like religions.

SOUNDCLIP

GEORGE STEINER: There will have been a moment of crucial revelation or diagnostic insight from which the entire system springs. This moment in the history of the founding prophetic vision will be preserved in a series of canonical text. There will be an original group of disciples who are in immediate contact with the master, with the founder's genius. Soon, some of these disciples will break away into heresy. They will produce rival mythologies or sub mythologies. And now watch something very important. The Orthodox in the great movement will hate such heretics. Will pursue them with an enmity far more violent than that which they bend on the unbeliever. It's not the unbeliever they're afraid of. It's a heretic from within their movement.

CH: And there's much more from the late literary critic George Steiner on "Ideas" with Nahlah Ayed coming up after "As It Happens."

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