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The AIH Transcript for April 23, 2020

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CO: We speak to a retired Mountie who responded to 2014's deadly attack in Moncton, New Brunswick.

He says the mass shooting in Nova Scotia is bringing back difficult memories … and even tougher questions.

CO: Not yet. When hundreds of protesters gathered in Pennsylvania to agitate for that state to re-open, our guest took part in a small counter-protest. The nursing assistant says it made her brake down in tears.

CO: Flipping his lids. From our archives, an interview with 96-year-old Barney Smith, who was selling off his collection of hand-decorated toilet seats. Hundreds of them. And he says it was about more than his bottom line.

CH: As It Happens, the Thursday edition. Radio that cautions any novice lunch-maker against sand-splaining.

[Music: Theme]

Part one: NS RCMP folo, U.S. distancing counter protest, FOA: toilet seat collection

NS RCMP folo

Guest: Louis-Philippe Theriault

CH: RCMP investigators in Nova Scotia say they still don't understand the exact path a killer took this weekend. The attacks left 22 people dead. And they took place over 12 hours, at several locations that spanned nearly 100 kilometres. The RCMP have now acknowledged that it wasn't until Sunday morning — many hours after several victims had already been killed — that investigators came to understand their suspect was dressed as an RCMP officer, driving a replica cruiser. It's one revelation among many that’s raising serious questions about how the RCMP handled the attack. Louis-Philippe Theriault has questions, too. He's a retired RCMP officer, who responded to the Moncton shooting in 2014. We reached him in Moncton.

CO: Mr. Theriault, did this weekend's attack in Nova Scotia, did it bring back memories of Moncton in 2014 for you?

LOUIS-PHILIPPE THEIAULT: It definitely did. Definitely did. Every time there's a police officer getting killed, especially an RCMP officer, it does bring some painful memory.

CO: We remember that in Moncton, three Mounties were killed, two were injured. There were a number of reviews, some very serious lessons learned about how things should be done differently, better communication, better training and protection for the officers. Do you think that the RCMP, Nova Scotia, applied those lessons this weekend?

LPT: Well, it's still early to tell. But from what I see, there was some breakdown in communication. And you know what? The first responders, the members working on patrol, they always do their best. They always do the best with the tools they're being given. And sometimes you’re in a chaotic situation. You've got some training years ago. You're trying to remember that training the best you can. And you're trying to do the best you can to make sense out of a chaotic situation, where the tough questions will need to be asked. And I don't think right now is the time to ask those questions. But comes a time we'll need to ask, has the lesson that the Monkton 2014 shooting taught us, have we retained those lessons and applied those principles that the RCMP, through the independent report, came out with several recommendations that we applied all those recommendations.

CO: Okay. Let's just look at some of that. Because one thing we think we know about Monkton that there was a great deal of confusion in that incident. There was poor central communication. The leadership, the officers didn't know what they're going into. They're outgunned. They didn't wear their armour. They didn't have it in many cases. So what was the command structure? This this man in Nova Scotia was on the loose for 12 hours. Do you have a sense of what the command structure was?

LPT: Well, it's it's still hard to say. And I think the command structure wasn't much different than just a regular detachment manning, up until they realized that we're facing something greater than just a regular homicide. The question that's going to have to be asked is, when did they switch from just a regular manning from calling “help” all over the province? So, yes, that location is quite isolated, but within two hours you're reaching pretty much anyone in that part of Nova Scotia. So you could potentially get multiple officers as backup and services up.But when was the time that they called for help?

CO: And in Moncton, that was the case, wasn't it? There were just dozens, if not a few hundred officers and police that arrived at that scene? Did you see that in Nova Scotia on the weekend?

LPT: Well, I wasn't in Nova Scotia, so I don't know. But from the media footage, they did get some help. But the first time I realized there was a lot of officers on the scene is when you saw the emergency response team at the gas station, probably looking like they surrounded the suspect. So that's when I realized that, yes, there's more officer deploy. But when I first woke up in the morning, from what I see on the news, they were still looking for the shooter. They didn't know what was going on. Did they deploy the resources they had access to? Was there a lack of leadership? I don't know. What I can tell you is that from reports, from what I heard, people on the frontline did an outstanding job. They did the best they can. But did the leadership? Did the management? Were they able to use their good judgement and say, oh, maybe this situation is out of our hands, is out of control? We need to escalate that to the next level and pull all the resources we can onto that situation.

CO: Of course, what we know is that there was a constable killed, Constable Heidi Stephenson, another one officer was wounded. Do you know anything about, do understand how that might have happened? And if she had the equipment she needed? You say they did do the best with the tools they are given. Did she have what she needed?

LPT: I have no information whatsoever on the equipment that she had at that time. However, I know the RCMP has gone a long way since 2014. As far as equipping their officers with body armour, with hard plates, that should have been available to every officer equipping their officer with a carbine as well. I think there is a very high percentage of officers trained on it. I think every officers that go through training now in depot has that training. So those tools that were missing in Moncton should have been available to her. The other tool is training as well. The RCMP officers since 2014 have got a different kind of training to respond to active shooting situation. I'm talking about the frontline officers. Of course, that training doesn't always apply depending on the situation. But there's also training for the supervisors how to handle that situation. And the RCMP was found guilty in a labour code trial here in Moncton. They were found guilty of not providing adequate training to their employees and supervisors.

CO:

Right These are some discussion about that perhaps there had been that the constable had, her car, her vehicle, had struck or had been struck by the shooter. Do you know anything about that?

LPT: Well, that's only rumours. I heard that either she rammed the vehicle or she was rammed. But no, I don't have any more detail than that. But if you know, if you know that there is an active shooter and that he's in a car, you want to take down that vehicle to limit his ability to move. So maybe that's what she did. But once again, I don't have any solid evidence that this is what happened. All we know is that there's two cars that got burned to the ground. And from what we gather, one is her car and the other car was the car that the shooter was driving.

CO: So many questions, and we'll have to leave it there for now, Mr. Theriault, but we will be trying to find out what we can as well. Thank you so much.

LPT: Thank you. Have a good evening.

CH: Louis-Philippe Theriault is a retired RCMP officer. We reached him in Moncton, New Brunswick.

[Music: Ambient]

U.S. distancing counter protest

Guest: Yetta Timothy

[Sound: Lot’s of cheering and honking and clapping]

[/sc]

CO: What did they say? How did they respond to you?

YT: Some that we're keeping quiet to themselves, that we're walking past were literally whispering in our ears, you know, thank you. Thank you for what you're doing. But it was kind of like they were afraid to say it out loud, or like to be there with us, and for us. So they would just literally walk past and whisper. Others, they were just yelling, yelling obscenities. You know, it's it's our lives, our bodies. You know, you got a job. You go to work every day. Why can't we? Things of that nature.

CO: They clearly don't believe, or they say they don't believe, that there's any need for the stay at home orders. What's the situation right now in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania? What could you tell them about, if they would listen to, what you're dealing with inside the hospital?

YT: Well, there's absolutely a need for this stay at home order. And it does need to be extended. We cannot open right now at this point. Well, I've been out of work since the 26th of February, because I had surgery. I literally went back the day that we had the protests. I picked up a double shift to the agency. But the facility that I have been working with for 21 years was just on the news, 18 people so far tested positive for the COVID-19. And that's residents. We have four staff members who had tested Just yesterday, my daughter, and this is what is really upsetting to me, my daughter also works at the place that, you know, that I've been at for 21 years. And then all of this ruckus happened. She's there; she's eleven weeks pregnant.I'm losing my mind. I'm going crazy because I'm so worried about her. And she called me yesterday and said someone on the floor that she's working on now has just been tested for COVID-19. I didn't know what to do. Like, I’m shaking and worried and crying. And they just recently gave them some PPE. And, of course, they have to reuse them — the little, you know, body outfits that they have on. Hers has a rip in it. And they refuse to give any other one. It literally has to be soiled for them to give you another one. You get one face mask. You have to reuse that. I can't even explain the emotions that I'm going through right now.

CO: At the same time, we heard the president of your country, Donald Trump, say on the weekend he described those protesters that you were you were confronting. He described them as, quote, great people. He said, these people love our country, and they want to get back to work.

What would you say to the president if you could speak to him?

YT: I mean, how are they loving the country? If they're loving the country, they'll doing what we're trying to tell them to do. You know, stay home. It is not forever. It's not like we're asking for forever. And yes, it's it's it's hurtful to some people, you know, money-wise and livelihood-wise. But having your life is more important. Having the people around you live is much more important. I would think so. What is the rush to have a surge more of these COVID-19 cases become positive. Like why? Why would we want to do that? I just don't understand it. Why?

CO: It seems, though, that the polling that they're doing in the United States, most people agree with you. They want these measures to stay in place. They don't agree with the president. Does that give you any comfort?

YT: It does. It gives me a lot of comfort. And I'm I'm glad to see that a lot of people are, you know, standing with me and and with others. And they're they're smart. I mean, I don't want to say that the other people who are against it are not smart. I understand where they're coming from. But right now, at this point in time, it's not safe. It is not safe to re open P.A. wholeheartedly at this time. If they want to open up little, you know, small business, I can understand that part. Slowly open the economy back up, but do not open up the entire state of P.A. That is a disaster.

CO: Yetta, I really appreciate speaking with you. And I appreciate the work that you're doing as well. Thank you.

YT: Thank you.

CO: Bye.

YT: Bye-bye.

CH: That was Yetta Timothy in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. To see a picture of Ms. Timothy at the protest, visit our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Ambient synth]

Toilet seat collection

CH: The art of Barney Smith resonates especially powerfully right now. Because every piece in his enormous body of work contained a hole in its centre. That negative space was a leitmotif throughout his oeuvre, suggesting a void at the core of human understanding. Or, in 2020, a different kind of lacuna — the human interaction missing from our daily experience. Clearly, Mr. Smith's work was subject to interpretation. But I think all critics would agree: he decorated toilet seats. In 2017, Mr. Smith — who was 96 years old at the time — decided to sell the contents of his Toilet Seat Art Museum. All 1300-plus toilet seats he'd painstakingly decorated for more than 50 years. From our archives, here's Barney Smith, telling Carol about the decision — and about what drew him to the unusual medium in the first place.

CO: Hello, Barney?

BARNEY SMITH: Hello there.

CO: How are you?

BS: So you’re the host of the show?

CO: I'm the host of the show.

BS: Oh good! I’m glad to talk to you about my toilet seat collection.

CO: But now Barney, why are you selling your collection?

BS: Because I'm 96-years-old, and I’m getting ready to leave this whole world.

CO: No!

BS: I've seen a lot of changes in my 96 years.

CO: You know and some of those changes are actually on toilet seat covers aren't they? That you painted.

BS: Oh yes, in fact, my wife and I’s — I've got a last anniversary that we celebrated on our 74th wedding anniversary — I’ve got that on a toilet seat. That’s the last one that I put.

CO: What’s on that toilet seat?

BS: It's just me kissing her goodbye.

CO: On the toilet seat?

BS: On the toilet seat.

CO: Well, how many toilet seats do you have in your museum?

BS: 1,322.

CO: You've got on some of these… I've got pictures. You got license plate….

BS: I need a bottle of water to drink.

CO: All right… good idea.

WOMAN IN BACKGROUND: Did you hang up on her?

CO: [Sound: Laughter] No, no, I'm still here now.

BS: Now I’ve got it on the speaker.

CO: OK Barney, I'm still here. Now you’ve got license plates, you got tributes to all the states and to Canadian provinces too.

BS: I’ve got five of the ones out of Canada the ones — the ones that I could get my hands on the license plates. I put them all with Alberta, Saskatchewan, British Columbia and I’ve got about a half-dozen of them.

CO: I think you got Manitoba too.

BS: I’ve got the Yukon.

CO: Yukon, right. And so you've got those on your toilet seats. But there's a really weird one you got. It looks like a swarm of hornets and a hornets’ nest.

BS: Hornets’ Nest is the one that the yellow jacket did to little brown hornet and it stung me on top of her head. I said I’m going to put you on my toilet seat. So I put a wasps’ nest on the toilet seat.

CO: Now can anyone… I mean can anyone actually sit on these toilet seats and do their business?

BS: Can they do what?

CO: Can you sit on the toilet seat? Can you actually use one of these toilet seats?

BS: The hinges are taken off. You may fall through the toilet if you sit on a plaque. I call them plaques.

CO: Right.

BS: They’re made out of toilet seats, but they’ve got the hinges off.

CO: Barney, why toilet seats? I mean why not dinner plates or doors or something? Why are you painting on toilet seats?

BS: Because I’m a master plumber, retired.

CO: You were a plumber?

BS: I’m a genuine electrician, retired. I’m a minister, retired. And I'm so tired because I'm almost gone. I tell you, it won’t be long until I’m gone. I got to get rid of my toilet seat collection. I've got 1,322 toilet seats, and they're all catalogued. In fact, I've got the book right here in my hand now. Number one is my dog tags. Number 500 is “Dogs” that's the one that I was supposed to quit, but I didn’t. I’ve been in the doghouse ever since.

CO: You told your wife you're going to quit at 500?

BS: Yes. That's my “Dogs.”

BS: I’m hitting the button again! I am back on the speakerphone.

CO: OK.

BS: I’m going to lose you there. I can’t hold the telephone up to my ear without hitting a button or two. It’s a little, portable phone.

CO: Barney, I’m going to let you go. But just tell me what does it cost? What does someone have to come up with in order to buy your collection?

BS: I'm going to let that be whoever is interested in purchasing it.

CO: OK. Well, we'll see if anybody in Canada or one of our listeners wants 1000 toilet seats with your art on it.

BS: 1,322 toilet seats hanging in my museum.

CO: Exactly. All right, we'll tell everybody how they can see your toilet seats, Barney. And I hope you have many more years ahead of you, in spite of what you're saying. And it’s good to talk to you. Thanks.

BS: Well, I'm so glad to get to talk with you. I want you to come and see me. What part of Canada are you from?

CO: I'm in Toronto. I'm in Toronto

BS: Toronto.

CO: Yeah.

BS: We went to Toronto and went on the train. And we went right underneath the hotel, and got on the escalator, and right up in the lobby of Toronto that is the Queen Elizabeth is it?

CO: That's in Montreal. Anyway Barney, it's great to talk to you. And good luck with your museum.

BS: Alrighty. Thank you so much. Give me a call some time and see as things going.

CO: All right, we'll do that.

BS: Alrighty. Have a good time now.

CO: You too. Bye bye.

BS: Bye bye.

[/sc]

CH: From our archives, that was Carol speaking with Barney Smith, artist and owner of the Toilet Seat Art Museum in San Antonio, Texas. Mr. Smith died in July of 2019. He was 98. But his collection is still thriving: the owner of a Texas restaurant called the Truck Yard bought the whole thing. In non-pandemic times, the Toilet Seat Museum at the Truck Yard is open daily from 11 a.m. to 2 p.m., and available for parties and corporate events.

[Music: Violin]

Part two: Sask restrictions lifted, senator tuna melt

Sask restrictions lifted

Guest: Anne Huang

CH: Scott Moe is giving the full quarantine measures another week and a half. Then the Saskatchewan Premier says he's going to begin a five-phase plan to return the province to normalcy. The premier outlined his plan this morning. But the announcement comes as the northwestern community of La Loche grapples with a rapidly moving outbreak that's now spread to a nearby First Nation. Dr. Anne Huang is a former deputy medical health officer in Saskatchewan. We reached her in Saskatoon.

CO: Dr. Huang, if everything goes as planned, what kind of things are gonna start happening in Saskatchewan on the 4th of May?

ANNE HUANG: The initial phase, announced by Premier Mo this morning, will involve opening of fishing, angling access, camps and parks. And so that is pretty soon.

CO: And what about there's also a medical services that will be allowed, like dentistry and optometry and whatnot?

AH: Correct. And so these will be things like more of the allied health care that we think of rather than the acute care services, which has been opened as of now. Now, golf course, for example, won't be open until the 15th — and then additional retail services won't be open until May 19th. And after that, they will reassess.

CO: But given what we've just learned about what happened in La Loche — the northern northern community in Saskatchewan — and the doubling of cases in that community. What can you tell us about that?

AH: I'm actually quite concerned about it. Premier Mo, this morning, mentioned that this plan had been shared with other provincial premiers. So I suspect this has been planned for a while. When the numbers has remained low in Saskatchewan, the numbers in far north Saskatchewan, in La Loche, as well as adjacent town, has increased rapidly only in the past few days, since last Friday. And that if we consider the population density up north actually is quite a significant rise. As of yesterday, they have the second highest number of active cases after Saskatoon, and that has direct impact on any tourism or fishing or camping activity in northern Saskatchewan, because that's the lakes in the boreal forest in Saskatchewan is what draw the tourist, even American tourists, to come into summer.

CO: It must also be of great concern to Indigenous communities in Saskatchewan, Since it spread to the Clearwater River Dene Nation, right?

AH: Correct. And yesterday, there was also a report that I believe another First Nation of 100 km north has had four new cases reported. And so that represent the pathways from North Battleford going north, until La Loche, which in the winter has ice road connecting to northern Alberta. And a lot of these services hire local staff, which is great. But that does create a bit of a challenge. If the local Indigenous communities are declaring state of emergency, curfew and trying to contain the virus while the tourism industry is trying to open up and hire worker, that is potentially quite risky in terms of being able to contain COVID-19 in northern Saskatchewan.

CO: If, as you say that it's premised on the efforts or the assumption that they can trace whatever cases do increase or whatever does happen, that they're all traceable. What does it tell you that there has been this outbreak? Is that a traceable outbreak?

AH: The province has not really sufficiently much details. And so at this time, we only know of the total number of cases that's been reported. About 10 per cent of those cases in the entire province are not traceable. But a huge number of them right now, around 20, are under active investigation. So I'm assuming quite a large number of that active investigations are will be further to the new cases just being reported in the far north. So what that tells us is that we're only one outbreak away, really, as what we've observed in Alberta and in B.C.

CO: What we understand is that the La Loche outbreak could have been tied workers who are returning from the oil sands sites across the border in Alberta. Since the work has dried up for those people, they are going home, crossing borders. And so Saskatchewan doesn't have much control over its borders, does it?

AH: Correct. And it's not clear some the plan that's release so far, whether there will be any measures for interprovincial borders. And even if so, because of the close linkage, both personal and professional travel back and forth between northern Alberta and La Loche or the rest of the northern Saskatchewan towns, as long as we are seeing an elevated risk next to the border, the same risk will apply to northern Saskatchewan communities.

CO: What worries you the most about Saskatchewan beginning to open up?

AH: I think we have been fortunate because of the lower population density, and because the government did take decisive actions earlier on in the epidemic curve compared to other jurisdictions. However, we do not have the benefit of 21st century technology like South Korea or Taiwan do, whereby, you know, if someone is found to have been to quite a number of places. Those Asian nations have been able to send out a letter to people to say, you know what? You might have been exposed. We don't know. But please keep an eye on it, and please go for testing. And so my worry is that if we rely on our current passive testing system, we may not pick up on the start of a new outbreak soon enough to contain it.

CO: Dr. Huang, we will be watching, Canada will be watching, to see what happens in Saskatchewan. And I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

AH: You're welcome. Thanks, Carol.

CO: Take care.

AH: Take care.

CH: Anne Huang is a former deputy medical health officer in Saskatchewan.

[Music: Whatever this untuned guitar is, it’s not enjoyable]

“Kim’s Convenience” Zoom calls

CH: You miss the little things: The ease with which you could get-together with friends. The casual chit-chat as you went about daily life. Into that vacuum have rushed what you may now, rightly, regard as your "real" friends — the ones you could count on to entertain you at the end of a hard day. The ones you never had to perform for. But who always perform for you. I mean your TV friends. Sure, some may denigrate those friendships as "not actually real" or, stingingly, "totally one-sided" but at least two of those friends are proving otherwise. Paul Sun-Hyung Lee and Andrew Phung both star in the CBC sitcom "Kim's Convenience." And together they've opened their hearts, and Zoom accounts, to their truest fan friends, breaking the fourth wall to cement a beautiful kind of friendship. This morning they told the CBC's David Common why, staring with Andrew Phung.

[sc]

ANDREW PHUNG: I think it's a combination of things. But I think, you know, we were all in this for a while together. And I just felt like we didn't need another celebrity telling you it's gonna be all right or someone to ask you to donate money you didn't have. And what I love about our fans, they love talking to us. And we love, you know, comic book conventions and stuff like that. We love talking to fans. Like, let's do a cool thing where, you know, we've come out to their living room with our show. Let’s invite them to our virtual living room to chat with you every week.

DAVID COMMON: Paul, you're super active on on social media. But the opportunity for people interact with you kind of verbally and see you must be a blast for people. What was the most recent one like?

PAUL SUN-HYUNG LEE: Well, we just had one on Tuesday. And the response to the Google sign up for it has been tremendous. I think I don't know what the numbers are, Andrew, but I mean, a day into it, we had over 250 signups for it.

AP: We hit 500 today. [all chuckling] So that's been the response. And it's lovely to see people from all over the world really, really relate to the show. And they want to chat with us, which is mind-blowing. But it's very it's humbling. We're very grateful for the support that we get from our fans. And it went over very, very well, because it really is, even though there's 25-plus people in the Zoom chat, they get a chance to answer questions. And it's a really intimate sort of virtual get together, so that it's not open to the public, per say. It is a slight group every week, and it's something a little bit special that we try to give to them.

AF: It's a really exciting... It's a good way also for us, just for me to see Paul's face. I love the guy. He’s literally one of my best friends. And so just to hang out with your friends and really open it up to others is great.

DC: What's it like for you, Andrew, at home? I mean, I see you on social media trying to keep up with teaching your kids and trying to keep everybody engaged. How are you faring?

AF: You know what? It's been up and down. You know, everyone's got up days and down days. But what I love is it's actually been a really cool opportunity to press pause on life and just be a dad, and discover a lot of things play with my boys. And so that's what I take away from it. It's got to be one of those times we commemorate, you know, a photo album years from now as a family, of just this is a thing that happened. This was a blackout for two months. It's got a lot of cartoons, a lot of snacks, a lot of playing in the yard and I honestly kind of love it.

DC: What about you, Paul? Do you weep softly because you don't get to see Andrew all the time?

PSHL: [laughing] Absolutely. You know, thank heavens for modern technology being able to virtually meet large groups of people at the same time. So I do get a chance to see Andrew, even though he lives only five minutes away. I do miss him very, very much.

[/sc]

CH: "Kim's Convenience" actors (and real-life friends) Paul Sun-Hyung Lee and Andrew Phung talking to the CBC's David Common this morning. And you too can talk to them via Zoom — if you're willing to get in line behind roughly 500 other friends.

[Music: Funky folk]

Senator tuna melt

Guest: Mark Warner

[sc]

[/sc]

CO: You're getting getting scolded in all directions, aren't you?

MW: Yeah, I think there were some folks that might not have seen the humour in that, but maybe that's just because they've been inside too long.

CO: Okay. You mentioned a number of the details in the video that made people suspicious that you had no idea what you were doing.

MW: Well, I did warn people that unless you are a professional chef, you might need to pause occasionally [CO chuckles], because I was moving fairly quickly. I think the genius of the tuna melt that I prepared was it was less than two and a half minutes, and that even included the twenty-second handwash I performed while the sandwich was in the microwave.

CO: But it probably took me another 20 seconds to actually empty most of a bottle of mayonnaise onto the bread?

MW: Well, Carol, I do have to acknowledge, as I've told you in the past, my mother's family's is all from Ontario. And I may have gotten my mayonnaise-eating habits from that side of the family.

CO: [chuckling] Oh, no, no, no. You're not going to blame us for that. My gosh, that was excessive. Maybe that's a Warner family recipe? Has it it been passed on to the generations, you're saying?

MW: Well, it was actually, I was going to use what I grew up with was Miracle Whip. But even my daughter thought that was a little too gross. But I can assure you that whatever Warner mayonnaise affliction has not been passed onto my three kids. They are completely aghast whenever I put mayonnaise on. I do use it as well on baloney and cheese and other things as well.

CO: Well, Miracle Whip would have been the Canadian choice. [ MWchuckling] Now, you didn't get a real dressing down from Senator Kamala Harris, who really showed you how it's done. What did you make of how she shows you how to do a tuna melt?

MW: Well, I mean, what do you expect? She lives in San Francisco and, you know, kind of a hearty community. And having that deluxe kitchen with all of the vegetables she put in. But Kamala is a good friend. And there was, you know, it is one approach. I still think mine's a little heartier and I'm a little more authentic.

CO: But you looked a bit alarmed when she added lemon and chopped vegetables.

MW: Right, well parsley and lemon.

CO: Celery.

MW: On a tuna melt? Well, there was celery, but there was also parsley at the end. I just think that may show her a little too much tendency towards vegetarianism.

CO: [laughing] But she showed you, but this is a skillet, she says at some point. You knew that, right?

MW: Yes, I had seen that. As a matter fact, there had been times when I've used toaster ovens. But, you know, it doesn't happen nearly as quickly or as magically with 30 seconds in the microwave. And you get that white bread, extra moist feeling when it comes out of the microwave.

CO: You didn't drain the tuna. You put half a bottle of mayonnaise on it and you put in the microwave. It must've been fairly soggy?

MW: Well, that's where the processed cheese — and I'm a two slice man — you know, helped absorb some of that extra excess liquid.

CO: Now, do you have any other recipes since you plan to share with people during the pandemic?

MW: Well, I told Kamala that, you know, my next performance might be with bologna and Velveeta, along with potato bread that's slightly yellow as opposed to white.

CO: Right. That sounds that something out of the Kraft Family kitchen recipes from probably the Canadian cookbook.

MW: Right. I am showing a little bit of my ethnic heritage here.

CO: [chuckling] Now, people have also suggested that you might have been trying to do this as a fundraising thing, but I would imagine that had failed if that was really the case?

MW: Yeah, unless I was forcing people to eat these sandwiches, if they didn't give. I'm not sure I thought that far ahead.

CO: What did your kids think of your your efforts?

MW: They were aghast. Luckily, I've got two of them here with me, and one down at my farm. And they said they've heard from friends — they're all in their mid-20s to 30 — that they had heard from friends that they hadn't heard from since grammar school. So, you know, if a tuna melt can bring friends and family together, you know, one small step forward.

CO: I hope if you’re bringing friends and family together, they're cooking for you.

MW: Well, yes. So, you know, some good may come from this.

CO: All right. So you have something to fall back on if this politics stuff doesn't work out for you.

MW: Absolutely.

CO: Senator Warner, thank you.

MW: Carol. Thank you. Stay safe and eat hearty.

CO: [laughing] I’m not not not having your tuna melt I can tell you that much.

MW: All right. Be well.

CO: Bye.

MW: Bye.

CH: That was Virginia Senator and home cook Mark Warner in Alexandria, Virginia. And you can find more on that story on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Ambient instrumental]

Part three: End of life visits, Syria human rights, no homeschool mom

End of life visits

Guest: Avi Shushan

CO: Right.

AS: So I ask the question in our board, and I tell them this is our obligation. This is the moral thing to do. Then the CEO of the hospital, Professor Ronni Gamzu, stood up and say, Avi’s right. What is the problem? The the clothes, give them the clothes. This is not a problem. This is the moral thing to do. So do it.

CO: We've spoken with people in other jurisdictions, other countries, where they have described what you're saying, which is that people, just horrible and sad situation of people dying alone, or with health care workers trying to to do the job of what a family would do. Did you see situations like that in your own hospital where people died of COVID-19 and were not able to have their families with them?

AS: When we decide to allow family to enter inside, it was after we had four or five people that died from coronavirus by themselves. It was in the beginning of the corona where there was a lot of panic in the world. A little bit of the time, as time goes by, and we start to look at the event that we are living in, and not just run into. We stop and think. And then I spoke with the family that did enter inside and came to say their goodbye. And all the family that enter inside and be near their beloved one knew their father or knew their mother. And they say their goodbye. They tell me, Avi, thank you. Thank you to you, and thank you for the hospital for allowing us this grace for our family. They say that this has given them opportunity to say their beloved one, that they love them, that they say their goodbye. They pray. Like yesterday, in the last night, a father of 14 children, 48-years-old, Hasidic, died from Ccarona. And in the middle of the night, the the social worker calls his family and told them if they want to say goodbye, and two of his oldest son, that are 16 and 17, come in the middle of the night. And the staff waiting for them. The social worker, the nurse. They get inside the department, fully equipment. And stood near their father bed. They pray for his soul, so a Jewish pray. And while they were there, he closed his eyes and passed away. And the children are so glad that they had the opportunity to pray for him and to be with him while he die.

CO: This is something we're wrestling with in Canada, as to the policies that in some hospitals, only one person can go in, or one at a time. And you're allowing for families to gather so they can be together, as many of them as you can allow.

AS: We allow them in a group of two now about.

CO: But you do have... It seems what you're saying is you do have the personal protection equipment that can allow for that.

AS: We supply them.

CO: Yeah, but see, but there are other places that have shortages of that. Do you think that if you don't have enough equipment, that this is something you really can't facilitate for others?

AS: Well, let me tell you something. When we decide the policy, it was one month to go almost already. And over then, we don't have a lot of equipment. Put we still don't have a lot of patients. So I believe that if we have enough equipment for the next month, you know, you get more equipment. In the meanwhile, if you have the ability to enter the family, do it. Because it's so important to the family. It's so important to the people themselves. And this is the moral thing to do. And we always as a system, as a health system, need to remember that we are, first of all, for the for the patient.

CO: Mr. Shushan, I appreciate speaking with you. I think people will take this under advisement, and see how we can look at our own policies. And thank you for speaking with us.

AS: Thank you very much.

CO: Bye.

CH: Avi Shushan is a spokesperson for Israel's Sourasky Medical Center — which is allowing family members to visit dying loved ones, two at a time. We reached him in Tel Aviv.

[Music: Instrumental that is slow]

UN food shortage

CH: In the middle of the COVID-19 pandemic, the world is also on the brink of a hunger pandemic. That's according to a new report from the World Food Programme, which estimates that the number of people suffering from hunger could rise from 135 million to more than 250 million. The most at-risk countries are already facing conflicts, severe drought, and the worst locust infestations in years. And the report suggests the economic fallout from COVID-19 — and the collapse of global supply chains -- could result in widespread famine. On Tuesday, David Beasley, the head of the World Food Programme, addressed the UN Security Council on a video conference.

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DAVID BEASLEY: We're already facing a perfect storm. So today, with COVID-19, I want to stress that we're not only facing a global health pandemic, but also a global humanitarian catastrophe. Millions of civilians living in conflict-scarred nations, including many women and children, face being pushed to the brink of starvation with the spectre of famine, a very real and dangerous possibility. On any given day now, WFP, we offer a lifeline to about 100 million people, up from about 80 million just two years ago. This includes about 30 million people, who literally depend on us to stay alive. If we can't reach these people with the lifesaving assistance they need, our analysis shows that 300 thousand people could starve to death every single day over a three-month period. This does not even include the increase of starvation due to COVID. In a worst case scenario, we could be looking at famine in about three-dozen countries, and in fact, ten of these countries, we already have more than one million people per country who are on the verge of starvation. Two years ago, the Security Council took a landmark step, when it recognized and condemned the devastating human toll that conflict played in poverty and hunger. Resolution 2417. It also highlighted the need for early warning systems. And today, I'm here to raise that alarm. There are no famines yet, but I must warn you that if we don't prepare and act now to secure access, avoid funding shortfalls and disruptions to trade, we could be facing multiple famines of biblical proportions within a short few months. The truth is, we do not have time on our side, so let's act wisely and let’s act fast.

[/sc]

CH: That was David Beasley, head of the World Food Programme, addressing the UN Security Council on Tuesday.

[Music: Sombre instrumental]

Syria human rights

Guest: Sara Kayyali

CO: Ms. Kayyali, I know that you would like to have been in the courtroom today, if not for all these travel restrictions. What did you hear from people who were there?

SARA KAYYALI: Yes, I spoke to several Syrian lawyers who were involved in the cases, and who were fortunately able to attend. They described a courtroom atmosphere that was very tense, but indeed very hopeful. Some of them described how one of the perpetrators who's being charged really seemed quite dismissive and even bored at certain points. But that's certainly not what the atmosphere was for many of those who were in attendance.

CO: Can you tell us, first of all, just a bit about the two men, Anwar and Eyad? German authorities don't give out their last names in these cases. But can you tell us, two completely different ranks of activity of these two men. Tell us a bit about what they're accused of doing.

SK: Yeah, So both Anwar and Eyad are charged under universal jurisdiction laws in Germany relating to major atrocities. So war crimes and crimes against humanity. Eyad is charged with aiding and abetting crimes against humanity. He was subordinate actually of Anwar R’s, but operating in the same branch. Anwar R is one of the highest level of Syrian officials that's being charged. And he's being charged with acts of torture. Prosecutors estimate that he was responsible for the torture of over 4,000 people while he was the head of investigations in one of the Syrian government's notorious intelligence branches.

CO: This is Al Khatib? Branch 251, near Damascus, we're talking about?

SK: Yeah. So Branch 251, Al Khatib Branch, where Human Rights Watch and others have actually documented systemic and widespread torture in that intelligence branch. And Anwar R was the head of interrogations there between 2011 and 2012.

CO: How did they come to be arrested in Germany?

SK: So both Anwar R and Eyad were in Germany as asylum seekers. And they were seen by another another Syrian basically in the street and then in shops as part of the same centre. And those Syrians recognised them as having been involved in their torture when they had been detained back in Syria. And then they worked together with the European Center for Constitutional and Human Rights, as well as war crimes prosecutors in Germany, to bring these charges against them.

CO: You mentioned that Germany is conducting this trial under its universal jurisdiction laws that allows for crimes that took place in other countries with victims who are not Germans to be prosecuted. Canada has tried this. Other jurisdictions have. They find it difficult and costly because you have to do investigations in another country. Evidence is not with you. And it's very difficult to get that. So what is the evidence. How can you get evidence to actually prosecute this case?

SK: So the evidence here really is based on witness testimony. And this is where the advantage of organizations that have worked to document human rights abuses as they're happening really comes in. Because you do have victims who are present in Germany who are willing to testify against Anwar and Eyad in these cases. They're people who have experienced torture at their hands in those intelligence branches. So they do have that evidence actually readily available. Countries with larger numbers of refugees will find easier access for these kinds of crimes to be documented. It's a bit more difficult for countries who don't have victims readily there, or where the crime that's being investigated requires forensic expertise from Syria.

CO: Human Rights Watch and others gathered a tremendous amount of material from someone who's never been identified, who was able to smuggle out 28,000 photos of those who had been abused and killed in government custody in those prisons. Is that part of the documentation that will be brought into this trial?

SK: I believe so The Caesar photos, which are the photos that you've spoken about, where a military forensic photographer actually smuggled these out back in 2014. They provide very clear visual evidence of the crimes committed by the Syrian government and the intelligence branches. They show clear signs of torture. Death from significantly bad humanitarian conditions in prisons, as well as torture and mistreatment. And this visual evidence has helped not just war crimes prosecutors in European countries, but has also helped UN investigative teams make these cases.

CO: What message do you think this sends back to Syria, and to those who are still not just in Syria, but may have gone to other parts of the world, who know themselves to have been responsible for these kinds of crimes?

SK: I think it sends a very strong message that justice will eventually get to them. And that they shouldn't feel at ease for having gotten away with the crimes that they've committed thus far. I think this case really is a watershed moment that there is an opportunity to hold perpetrators of those abuses accountable. And this should send a signal not just to other Syrian perpetrators who found themselves as asylum seekers in European countries, but even to higher level perpetrators who are still in Syria. That one day, when they least expect it, it will be their turn to be in a court of law and be held accountable.

CO: Ms. Kayyali, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

SK: Thank you very much.

CH: Sara Kayyali is a Syria Researcher with Human Rights Watch. We reached her in Amman, Jordan.

[Music: Ambient]

Sir John Houghton obit

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CO: Why do we need the IPCC?

JOHN HOUGHTON: Because the climate change is a very complex issue. And it involves a lot of data, it involves many, many different disciplines. It means that it involves different countries, of course, because climate is a very global thing. All countries are involved. So you need a body that represents countries and represents disciplines and represents people who have really shifted the science in the most careful way they possibly could. So the IPCC has done this, I think, in a very unique way. No other scientific body on any of any other subject has work so fervently and so carefully. And that's often been said.

So it's been a very necessary body. If we didn't have that, our understanding of climate change would be very much poorer.

[/sc]

CH: Climate change scientist Sir John Houghton speaking with Carol in 2010. He died last week in Wales at the age of 88.

CH: As a 'space archaeologist', Sarah Parcak is used to taking the long view. She says the best way to describe her day job is to imagine Indiana Jones and Google Earth had a love child. In other words, she's a very modern kind of archaeologist who uses satellite imagery to pinpoint previously undiscovered ancient sites. But, not long ago, like so many other parents right now, she landed another full-time job: schoolteacher to her young son. A job she has now very publicly quit. In a series of tweets, Sarah Parcak announced that Grade One was over for her son — telling other parents: quote, "I give you permission to Let It All Go. School doesn't [bleeping] matter right now." We reached her in Birmingham, Alabama.

CO: Sarah, I know you're at home, like a lot of other parents are right now, taking it day-by-day. So what is today like for you and your son?

SARAH PARCAK: Well, you know, we try to have some normalcy in our routine. You know, we get our son up in the morning. I read to him. We have breakfast, then he plays with my husband so I can get a little bit of work done. And then I'll play with him so my husband can get a little bit of work done. And then we'll sort of back and forth for the day and do things together. But obviously, very, very, very changed circumstances given everything that's going on.

CO: But unlike other parents, you and your husband have decided do you’re not going to go with this homeschooling thing. And you've said that, well, but as far as you are concerned, your son was done with Grade One. What led you to that choice?

SP: Well, you know, initially, you know, five, six weeks ago, we really had no idea as to the extent or scale of the coronavirus outbreak, or how it would affect the United States. And so, you know, about two weeks later, we received a note from our son's teacher, who, by the way, is wonderful. We adore her. We love the school where he goes. And kind of saying, hey, this has happened. You know, we're gonna be transitioning to online schooling. And we just saw kind of how the pace of our life had changed. The enormous grief that we were dealing with, obviously, for the changed world that we were going into. And we're both full-time professors at the University of Alabama at Birmingham. And we realized we just couldn't do it. You know, but between our classes, our meetings, I run a not-for-profit outside my university. You know, how could we possibly manage the education of our son when we're not even early childhood-trained educators? And so we decided, you know, we're in a very privileged position that we could decide to just not continue with the first grade, and just educate him ourselves through reading and enrichment outside the classroom.

CO: So what do you feel that he might be losing by not finishing Grade One?

SP: Nothing. Absolutely nothing. You know, I mean, obviously, in a normal world, you know, he would be still going to school and going to soccer practise and, you know, getting getting what he would have gotten under the last couple of months of school. But now, you know, we we don't quite comprehend the amount of trauma our children are experiencing. And, you know, for them to contend with all that's going on, even the little ones, seven, eight, nine, they kind of get that this is not normal. How can they possibly be absorbing anything? What kind of learning is going on? You know, I teach online at my university. And online pedagogy at the best of times is really, really hard to get right. So asking all of these brilliant educators to change their teaching format overnight and move to online when, frankly, parents may not even have reliable Internet, you know, this is unreasonable. I think we all need to pull back and reassess what we're asking families to do.

CO: You didn't just make this as a personal decision. You went public with it. What was the message? What is it you wanted people to understand and to take away from your decision?

SP: So, first of all, I had no idea that, you know, I write threads on Twitter all the time. I’m very active on Twitter as a public scientist. And I wrote this pre-coffee a couple weeks ago, thinking that a handful of people would like it. I did not write that thread to go viral around the world. I probably would have used slightly better language [chuckling] had I known that was going to happen. But, you know, I've been reflecting on it. I certainly got gotten a lot of emails and reactions from parents. And I'm in a very privileged position to be able to speak what I hope is some truth. And what I hope parents realize is ultimately their mental health, and the mental health and well-being of their of their families and children, come first.

CO: I mean, from what I've read of what you posted, your son is obviously very fortunate to have parents like you. And that he’s getting a good education through you. He travels, I understand quite extensively with you, and he will recover from this, won't he? I mean, he has so many advantages. What do you say to those who don't have those advantages, who don't have your resources to fill in the gaps of an education?

SP: Oh, of course. I mean, I've been very intentional to share, you know, we are coming from a place of enormous privilege. You know, we both have jobs. We we have a house. We have a yard. We have books. You know, we've been so blessed to be able to take him with us on our travels. And the reality is, you know, this whole situation has exposed. And I have to say, I’m speaking as an American here, you know, the enormous structural racism that has existed, and continues to exist, for kids and families across our country. Education is not an equal playing field. You know, there are articles now coming out, and so many hundreds and hundreds of teachers are sharing their students have simply disappeared. They're parents aren't saying we're choosing not to school, their kids have just disappeared. Kids are not able to access a hot breakfast and lunch — the two meals that a lot of those are the only needs a lot of kids would get a day. There are spikes in domestic violence and abuse. And kids don't even have a safe place to go during the day. So it's a horrific situation. And I wish schools across the country, like I said, you know, we should be having a dialogue. Who's safe? Who has enough food to eat? That is so much more important than worrying that your kids are doing their worksheets or keeping up with grammar and reading. And that's really, I think, where we should be focussed as a country. You know, but because there's so much inequity in our educational systems.

CO: All right. Sarah, we’re going to leave it there. I'm sure our listeners will have much to say, with you and without you about this. So appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

SP: Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

CO: Take care. Bye.

CH: Sarah Parcak is a space archaeologist who has decided to opt out of homeschooling her son during the COVID-19 crisis. We reached her at home in Birmingham, Alabama.

[Music: Folk]

SOD Original YouTube video

CH: Jawed Karim only has one video on his YouTube channel. It's called "Me at the Zoo" — and by social-media influencer standards it's all wrong. The image is blurry. The sound is awful. And Mr. Karim seems extremely awkward on camera standing in front of a cage mumbling about some elephants. But Mr. Karim's video currently has over 90 million views. That's because he is the co-founder of YouTube. And "Me at the Zoo" was the first video ever uploaded onto the platform — 15 years ago today, on April 23rd, 2005. Here's all 18 seconds of that video now. It's our Sound of the Day.

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JAWED KARIM: All right, so here we are on one of the elephants. And a cool thing about these guys is that they have really, really, really long trunks. And that's cool. And that’s pretty much it.

[/sc]

CH: From April 23rd, 2005, that was Jawed Karim's video "Me at The Zoo". It was the first video ever uploaded to YouTube, 15 years ago today. It was our Sound of the Day.

April 23, 2020 Episode Transcript

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