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The AIH Transcript for June 22, 2018

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

Prologue

CO: Hello I'm Carol.

JD: Good evening. I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

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JD: Tonight.

CO: Their age is tender. Their treatment is not. While the Trump administration struggles to clarify its border policy young children are still being held at so-called tender age facilities. I'll speak with a congressman who visited one.

JD: Equal footy. Tara Sepehri Far just watched Iran's national team play for the first time as a fan in a Russian stadium. Now she is hoping she'll be allowed to do the same thing in Iran.

CO: Power lunch this week cabinet minister Karina Gould got a lot of attention for breastfeeding her son in the house but she wants to be a commonplace thing outside the commonplace.

JD: Unpacking what they unpacked. Canada's Inuit organization is grateful that someone chose to return a box of artifacts but deeply disturbed that that box also contained human remains.

CO: Happily ever after Canada's Food Agency is about to expand the ingredients brewers are allowed to use and did it changes official definition of beer from stuff that tastes like beer.

JD: And Herdrian. Hadriaaaan. The Future looks rocky for the Roman emperors legendary wall because treasure hunters with metal detectors really dig it and are really digging up artifacts around it. As It Happens, the Thursday edition radio that leaves all stones unturned.

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Part 1: Migrants: 'tender age' facility, Breastfeeding cabinet minister, Hadrian's Wall

Guests: Ben Ray Lujan, Karin Gould, Mike Collins

Migrants: 'tender age' facility

JD: It has been a hectic day on Capitol Hill. One U.S. House immigration bill has rejected another postponed until tomorrow. U.S. President Donald Trump told his cabinet that he plans to quote keep illegal immigrant families together during the immigration process and to reunite those previously separated groups. But how he intends to do that is far from clear. And as that clarity is sought, small children are still being detained at so-called 'tender age' facilities. Democratic Congressman Ben Ray Lujan visited one of those Texas facilities earlier this week. We reached him in Washington D.C.

CO: Congressman Lujan many people are quite horrified at the idea of these tender age facilities though the administration keeps reassuring us that the kids are well cared for. You've been to one. Are you reassured?

BEN RAY LUJAN: Carol look, getting a chance to visit these kids that have been separated from their parents who were detained. It's haunting, it's emotional, it's an American, it's inhumane. And look at the facility that we visited the staff that we interacted with. They seemed very compassionate. But here's the problem; before we went in to visit with the young boys in the facility of Casa Padre I asked if I would be able to talk to the children, to test the children questions. And the Health and Human Services staff and the Office of Refugee Resettlement they told me no, that we were not allowed to talk to the children. And look if they have nothing to hide then why would we not be able to interact with the children to ask them questions as well.

CO: What access did you get?

BL: Myself and several colleagues were able to visit two different detention facilities in Brownsville Texas. The first which had young boys between the ages of 10 and 17, about over 1400 boys and they walked us in a very controlled group, through the facility, but we were not able to talk to the boys until there was a short period of time where we were introduced to some of the boys in the classroom. So there was our opportunity for a very short interaction with these students and I shared with the boys. Good luck with everything, 'buena suerto con todo' in Spanish and 'entienden tus derechos', understand your rights and that we're fighting for their rights. And that's about the extent of what we could share with them. In the second facility which was smaller in scope, it was an old hospital that was now turned into a detention holding facility all of the children there were under ten years of age. The youngest children under five years of age and then babies, Baby Roger and baby Leah who are separated from their families, one from their mother over thirty days ago. And that was just- you know seeing all the children it was heart wrenching but especially those young babies.

CO: Can you tell about Roger and Leah.

BL: Sheila Jackson Lee and Congresswoman Frederica Wilson they stayed close to those babies and they insisted that we be able to go in to say hello to them. And when we did baby Roger reached out to Sheila Jackson Lee and just embraced her and just we didn't how to let go. And you wonder when are those poor babies and to be able to see their families again.

CO: And what about Leah?

BL: And Baby Leah she was playing on the floor and she was just the most precious little thing. But again those babies torn away from families. And when will they see them again. It's hard to put words to it.

CO: And my first question was whether you were reassured. And the message we're getting is that while these are clean well run facilities. They have the right ratios of staff to children etcetera. Does that cover it? Is that what you wanted to see?

BL: Look what I want to see is these children reunited with their parents. I think that some of the staff facilities are doing the best they can but that's only the facility that we visited down in Brownsville. The scenes that we have been seen and stories from members that have visited the homeland security facilities, where those children are torn and to stay for up to 72 hours for some of the audio has been reported out as well with children screaming and adults mocking the children for crying for their mommy or for their Pappy. There are many facilities where images have shown children in cages with sleeping under coverings that you would see marathon runners try to keep warm with after a race. That's all that they have to sleep on and so I would say that, no, not all of these children are in facilities where they have a bed to sleep on or where they are being taken care of. One of the concerns that I had at the facility is we visited; I asked if the children could take naps and what was made abundantly clear to me is that children are over the age of five are not allowed to take naps and I talk to everyone there and I said how is it that they're not able to take naps? I know you take naps when you're tired. How can you not allow these children even that kind of rest or time alone? How do these children sleep when the lights are kept on and all of these facilities even the ones that we've visited with?

CO: President Trump has signed this order ending the family separation. Does that mean that these kids will be reunited with their families?

BL: I'm fearful that it does not. There is every indication that what the president did, one, will not help any of the children that are already detained and that have been separated from their families and there's still uncertainty to what the health and human services department and the Department of Homeland Security will do going forward.

CO: The children are being separated because of the law in United States it doesn't allow children to be indefinitely incarcerated or detained. So do you think that the kids, going forward, will not be separated. Do you have any idea what kinds of conditions will be for the kids even if they stay with their parents.

BL: I'm not certain going forward what certainty we have of the facilities that the president will hold with these children in. If the facilities that they're building are any indication, like tent cities in the desert or retrofitted facilities that there are fencing and cages that have been built inside of them, are any indication of what facilities will be going forward, I think that that is a nonstarter and it's ugly. There's no reason for it.

CO: Just finally you said that you were frustrated that you weren't given better access you wanted to talk to the kids you wanted to see more. Your feeling was 'Well why can't I? What are they hiding?' So you came away with what burning question? What is the biggest question you away from there?

BL: Well one that there needs to be more transparency and access. And the other question is why are we not able to interact and visit with the children that are being held and detained, so that we can ask them questions if they're being mistreated? Are they being punished? What's happening there? Are they able to connect with their families as we're being told that they are able to do? So that we can make sure that we're holding everyone accountable again but putting the dignity and the humane treatment of these children first and not separating and tearing them apart from their moms. I'm terrified right now of all of the uncertainties surrounding the president's policy.

CO: Congressman Lujan I appreciate speaking with you .thank you.

BL: Thank you for your time today.

JD: Ben Ray Lujan is a Democratic congressman for New Mexico. We reached him in Washington D.C.

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Breastfeeding cabinet minister

JD: Earlier this week in Question Period there was some passionate debate around marijuana legalization but baby Oliver didn't seem to mind much. Oliver is the 16 week old son of Minister for Democratic Institutions Karina Gould. And on Tuesday, during that particular question period session, Minister Gould was breastfeeding her baby inside the House of Commons. The first Canadian cabinet minister to ever do so we reached Minister Gould in Ottawa.

CO: Minister Gould why did you breastfeed in Parliament this week?

MINISTER KARINA GOULD: Because my son was hungry and as a member of parliament when you have votes and the voting starts you can't leave the chamber. And so knowing that question period was ending and I got a message from my husband saying that the baby's hungry. So I ran out to get him before the vote started so that he wouldn't have to wait until after voting so that he could eat.

CO: Because your baby's been with you, right, coming and going since you came back to work.

KG: Yes yes. He's been with me the whole time. He's only 16 weeks old so he's with me all the time.

CO: And you first Canadian minister to breastfeed in the house and that's the word that went around the world, people were responding to that. What do you think of that?

KG: Well I mean I think it's something that we need to normalise. You know it shouldn't be that big of a deal, you know a mum feeding her baby in whatever capacity that is. I'm glad that there's been so much support I have to say it's been really lovely to receive that but I hope that we get to a point where you know we're not necessarily applauding it because it's just [unintelligible]. You know a mum feeds her baby anywhere and it's not looked down upon or frowned upon. It just is what it is.

CO: But you know it is down upon and frowned upon. There are still routinely we have stories, even though it's the law that women should be able to breastfeed in public and should not be told to hide or to cover up, and yet we hear that the one woman in Toronto or a golf course just last year got complaints for breastfeeding. Another woman [unintelligible] asked to leave a restaurant while breastfeeding or someone else asked to go to the basement to breastfeed or cover up. So why do you think that people are still so uncomfortable with this?

KG: You know honestly I don't know why people are still uncomfortable with women breastfeeding. As a mom my top priority is to make sure that my babies okay and the best way I can make sure my baby is okay is that he's getting the food that he need, and I'm his food source and if someone is offended by it, well that's their problem.

CO: You're not offended by this. You don't care. But I'm going to read some of the responses that you're referring to. These are, first of all from some women, that this 'is an intimate act. It does not belong in Parliament'. Another one 'you are in a place of work. Not what I want from my member of parliament'. Another woman says 'you're taking women backwards'. And then some men David lento 'Why not other bodily functions in public? This makes people uncomfortable and that's not where you should be doing it. Unsuitable to have small children in a workplace. Parliament for sober and serious debate. You make a mockery when you turn into a daycare'. And Jim Bailey asks 'have you people lost your minds?'.

KG: Well so I would invite the individual who said you know that I'm not taking my work seriously to review question period when I'm there with my baby or when he's in the lobby you know waiting for me because I feel perfectly confident that I'm able to perform my functions well and also be you know a good mom. It's a tough job. We all have tough jobs but you know we also need to work towards ensuring that we can accommodate people of young children as members of parliament. It's important to be able to have all voices represented in our house of commons representing Canadians, because Canadians go through different stages of life and we want to make sure that those voices are heard. But we also want to do what we can to support people to ensure that they have the resources and the support that they need, not have to choose between having a career and having a family. Couple of my colleagues commented that Oliver, my son, was actually one of the best behaved in the house that day.

CO: Yes I believe that now in some respects though you don't have a choice because cabinet ministers don't pay into employment insurance. You don't qualify for maternity leave unless you work something out with party leadership and you took 10 weeks. So do you think that needs to change?

KG: I think it does. I think we do need to have a policy in place. You know it's something that parliament is looking at. In fact the procedure and House affairs committee put out a report a couple of months ago on moving towards a family friendly parliament. Because if we are going to be intentional about encouraging young women and young men to run for office that we need to ensure that we are doing that. And quite frankly I think that the Canadian public is there. I mean my constituents have been overwhelmingly supportive. Of course I get the odd comment here and there but the vast majority have been really excited for me, really happy and are quite surprised that I don't get a maternity leave. So I think this is definitely something that we should move towards in the future.

CO: Some of the criticisms of you were that this is theatrical; you're doing this for a show. And I just wondered to some extent are you doing this in some to some extent for show, in that you want people to discuss this? I mean because you put out a video that is saying 'hey look you're I'm in the office with my baby. Let's talk about this'.

KG: Well I'd say that breastfeeding my baby in the House is not for show. That's actually just a human need. But I do think that it's important for us to have this conversation. I didn't have a baby so that we would have this conversation that just happened to be. But I think that we do need to have a more intentional conversation about women in politics. You know for me there weren't many other examples of women in government having babies. You know Pauline Marois, Laurel Broten, Christy Clark, Sheila Copps were the examples that I had. But that's not that many when we think of, the number of people who have entered into politics.

CO: And I do remember 1980s when Sheila Copps she simply brought her baby daughter into the members lobby and it was national news. Finally what point will you show Oliver this photo? What would you tell him, years from now? Do you think that at some point when you show this to Oliver this will be so commonplace that you get it, or do you think he'll still say 'Oh yeah right. That debate still going on'.

KG: It's not something that will be strange or people will- I mean there's always going to be criticism but hopefully won't be as local as some of the criticism that I've received. But I think on his way to understanding he was born on March 8th. So he's already kind of a natural born feminist, I guess.

CO: Well one day hopefully he does laugh about this. Minister Gould, good to talk to you. Thank you.

KG: Thanks so much for having me, Carol.

JD: Karina Gould is the minister of democratic institutions. She is the first Canadian cabinet minister to breast feed her baby in the House of Commons. We reached the minister in Ottawa.

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Hadrian's Wall

JD: It was built for the Roman Emperor Hadrian's visit to England in A.D. 122 and for nearly 300 years Hadrian's Wall was the northwest frontier of the Roman Empire. Now the year 122 was a while ago. So as you may imagine the wall is not necessarily in peak shape any longer but that is not just down to age. Experts say treasure hunters visiting the World Heritage site have damaged parts of it. Historic England who helps oversee Hadrian's Wall says it has seen an increase of Nighthawk visitors illegally using metal detectors to search for ancient artifacts and leaving holes around the area. Mike Collins is historic England's inspector of ancient monuments at Hadrian's Wall. We reached him in Newcastle upon Tyne England.

CO: Mr. Collins what kind of damage are these night visitors to Hadrian's wall doing?

MIKE COLLINS: They are causing real damage to the archeological deposits that are either side of Hadrian's Wall. So the recent incident, result of a tip off by a member of the public, and I went to visit the site and it was over 50 holes the [unintelligible]of that particular section of Hadrian's Wall. This comes after a couple of years where we have had other little outbreaks of little illegal metal detecting on the Roman sites at Corbridge and nearby at Housesteads. So we're just a bit concerned that there seems to be a bit of a trend of illegal metal detecting starting upon the wall.

CO: And what are they looking for?

MC: They're looking for metallic objects really that they can sell. This is not hobby metal detectorists. This is a very small criminal element. We're looking for metal objects that they think they can sell for their own financial gain. So it's robbing the landowner of their property but it's also robbing the local community. And you know the wider world of the understanding that those objects could have given us if they'd been properly excavated recorded.

CO: And what kind of things could they find around Hadrian's Wall?

MC: So that there's always a chance of Roman coinage but also military equipment and all of the throw away everyday objects that an army garrison here for more than 300 years, the discard on a daily basis and it's that sort of glamorous material on the associations between them. So you know the coins that date the structures and things like that, that kind of unglamorous stuff that allows us to piece together the story of Hadrian's Wall and just increase our understanding.

CO: And they're actually digging into it. They are destroying the wall in the course of looking for these things.

MC: Yes it's not the fabric of the war itself it's the archeological deposits either side of that. So Hadrian's Walls are a complex frontier in sort of depth defence. So it's all of the archaeology, all of the bits and pieces that people are thrown away to 300 years of military occupation in the north east and west of England.

CO: Can you, for those who haven't visited, describe the site? This is a world heritage site. Describe it and its significance.

MC: It's a Roman frontier that the Emperor Hadrian decreed should be built sometime around A.D. one to two. We know he visited this frontier after what looks like a border war some time in the AD 119 or 120. And one of his later biographers actually sums it up really well. They said that he was the first to build a wall to separate the Romans from the barbarians. So a it's a frontier wall with a whole series of ditches and banks and earthworks and forts and mile castles and signal towers. It's a really fascinating Roman landscape from a frontier defense point of view. It's not like any of the other frontiers of the Roman Empire. It's making a real powerful architectural statement as well. If your listeners haven't seen it, I really would urge them to have a look online, and even better, come and visit us in the northeast and northwest of England. We preserve the site. We work on it really hard. Precisely because people can come and appreciate it and understand that asset of common human past.

CO: And you get around 150,000 visitors a year, right?

MC: Yes something like that 150 to 200 thousand visitors which this site can cope with without losing its sort of wild upland character. And I think we could cope with some more people. You know we don't want to pull people off coming to visit. It's an amazing landscape. And you know we safeguard it precisely because people come and visit and value it, alongside the local people that live here they.

CO: Can you cope with these people these nighthawks coming in digging around it and doing the damage they're doing and actually taking stuff?

MC: We really want to put a stop to that. As I said before I think it's a very tiny minority of the people who take up metal detecting who do this kind of illegal activity. The responsible ones, which are the vast majority, they know that protected sites longer will have to be avoided by the hobby. So we need to put a stop to it and stop this.

CO: Because this isn't just nuisance activity, this is criminal activity right?

MC: It is yes. These sites are protected by UK law. It's a criminal offence to use a metal detector or to dig on them without very specific permissions and these people clearly don't have those, and are either very cavalier about not having permission, or you know deliberately seeking to find things that they could sell regardless of what the law says so. So yes the police take it very seriously and if we find information and we can get the individuals who are responsible for this, then yes, they will be subject to potential criminal sanction.

CO: All right, Mr. Collins. I hope you find them and thank you for the invitation. I'm sure a lot of people have already been there. It sounds like a great place. Thank you so much.

MC: Thanks a lot.

CO: Bye.

JD: Mike Collins is historic England's inspector of ancient monuments at Hadrian's Wall. We reached him in Newcastle upon Tyne in England. And should you want to read more about this story. You can find it on our website cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Part 2: World Cup: Iran, Human remains in artifacts box

Guests: Tara Sepehri Far , Natan Obed,

World Cup: Iran

JD: At the end of a long day there is nothing like a cold beer. But what is a cold beer like. That's a dumb question isn't it? It's like beer that comes in a bottle with beer on the label somewhere, tastes like beer. It's beer. So it's beer. It's like beer. Until recently, the Canadian Food Inspection Agency or CFIA would have agreed with you, did agree with you. Beer is that which closely or exactly resembles beer. But now it's opening up those standards a little to make them more inclusive and perhaps less redundant. On June 16th the CFIA opened a 90 day public consultation on the "compositional standards of beer". Those standards have not been changed in more than 30 years. While Canadian beer itself has changed significantly. So the CFA says it wants among other things to "allow industry to be more innovative in product development while maintaining the integrity of beer". Now there are plans to allow brewers to use more ingredients and to list those ingredients on the label. Plus, a long overdue change to the government's definition of beer which requires products sold as beer to "possess the aroma taste and character commonly attributed to beer". So just to reiterate the existing legal definition of beer in Canada is something that smells, tastes or really just seems like something that you recognize as beer. So yes, yes, perhaps beer is beer is probably a description we should clarify a little. I mean it's not wrong necessarily. It's just that you can get all kinds of stuff on tap nowadays. And that old definition feels a little bit like an early draft.

[Music]

SOUNDCLIP

[Sounds: Cheering]

JD: Those are sounds from a stadium in Tehran yesterday. And what you cannot make out in that wash of sound is that women were in the stands. And that is a big deal because, for decades, women have been barred from attending soccer matches at stadiums in Iran. Yesterday those rules were relaxed for a screening of the country's match against Spain. As the World Cup has gone on in Russia there have been protests against that rule with women holding up banners at Iran's game on Friday in St. Petersburg. Tara Sepehri Far was at the stadium in St. Petersburg. She is an Iranian soccer fan. It was her first time watching her country's national team in person. She's also a researcher with Human Rights Watch. We reached her in Washington D.C.

CO: Tara what was the experience like for you in Russia to finally see your team play?

TARA SEPEHRI FAR: It was an amazing feeling to be among thousands of Iranians from very diverse backgrounds, both who had come from Iran and people who were living abroad. I saw many different people, people who seemed more religious, people who come with family and friends, women were wearing a headscarf. Women who were not wearing a headscarf and there were all united in their support for the national team. It was an amazing feeling and it went by so fast and so quickly. At the end and it ended with a win for Iran. So it was almost overwhelming.

CO: How long has this been a dream for you? Does this go back to childhood that you want to see your national team play, to see it in the public not just watching it on TV?

TS: I think the first World Cup experience I remember is 1994 but I was too little. In 1998 that Iran actually played in the World Cup was the first time I started following Iran games closely and I always wanted to be part of that experience. And I even tried one time during one of Iran's qualifying games to go with my father. The game was being played in Tehran at the stadium. But my dad refused to let me dress as a boy, because I was like about 12-13 years old so it was difficult to disguise as a boy, to let me go. But gradually I started following Iran's game only on TV and kind of gave up on the idea of going to the stadium.

CO: Did your dad disapprove of the idea of you, or is it another reason why he didn't want to take you?

TS: Oh it was just his fear for my security and basically security me being arrested there. Otherwise he has always been supportive of almost everything I do. And actually when I was at the game and he was texting me for photos and pictures and he was very happy that I was there. So it was just his concern for my security.

CO: Is your dad still in Tehran?

TS: Yes he lives in Tehran.

CO: Now as you know in Tehran it was quite a moment for Iranian women who were allowed to go to the stadium to watch the game on a screen, to share that sort of experience with others in a big auditorium. What do you make of that? What were your thoughts when you saw that happening?

TS: I mean I was happy for few hours before the game. It was suddenly announced that the screening was canceled. And authorities have done this so many times that I wasn't surprised but I was actually very mad because when I posted a photo of myself on social media, with my fan ID saying that I'm here and I'm going to go to that game, many of my female friends who were actually even more of a sports fan that I am commented and that any messages that they wish there were there. And almost all of them are planning to attend that screening yesterday at the stadium. I was furious that they are cancelled. They intended to cancel that last minute and I was very happy that they ultimately got to experience something that was close to being in a stadium, not quite yet, but this is definitely a positive step. And I think just the fact that the screening went very well. There was no problem. And you could see people from all sorts of classes and demographics there, should speak for itself. Why this ban is not justified and authorities should move towards lifting it for all sports event.

CO: There were protests that went on during the game. Can you tell us about that?

TS: According to videos and Twitter things I've seen people very frustrated and insulted because they had bought tickets and they were standing in line to enter this idiom in authorities all of a sudden said that the screening was no longer happening. So people refused to leave the location and men and women sat on the ground protesting and demanding to be allowed in. And I think it was at that point that probably authorities intervened behind the scene and made it happen.

CO: Do you think that this is precedent setting and now this is going to happen that Iranian women will be able to go to the games in public?

TS: I very much hope that this will be the beginning of lifting the ban. Iranian women's I have worked on this for so long, several decades and several administrations including previous President Ahmadinejad was in favor of lifting this ban. But over the past two three years alone, I think the attitude of the society has shifted a lot in favor of lifting this ban. There are several members of parliament, people within the administration, several athletes, including the national team captain, have spoken about the need to lift the ban. So the demand has been elevated and many people want to see it lifted for good. So I very much hope that this is just the beginning. And I think that international federations and Iranian authorities were favor of this being listed should continue their push to see the real result which is having women back in the stadium.

CO: You know that it's a very conservative society and the conservatives have the ear of the authorities and that other women are included in those who disagree. What do you say to conservatives in your zone including the women?

TS: I think they should just look at the people who went to the stadium yesterday. Just look at the way they are dressed. Look at their faces and look at how happy they were and the fact that nothing went wrong and reconsider that this would be a threat to morale in the society or security of women. If you look at the photos that are published from the stadium you see many women in full wail that went with their young children. And I think it's a choice if someone doesn't want to attend a sports game, no one should should be forced to do that. But taking that right away from the rest of the population is just not fair.

CO: All right. Tara, thank you.

TS: Thank you.

JD: Tara Sepehri Far is Human Rights Watch's Iran researcher. We reached her in Washington D.C. And there is more on this story on the As It Happens Web site cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Honoring Darcy Hogan

JD: It had been a while since they'd seen each other but last night surviving members of the Humboldt Broncos reunited to honor their late head coach Darcy Hogan. Mr. Hogan was one of 16 people killed when the hockey teams bus collided with a truck back in April. And yesterday he was posthumously given the inaugural Willie O’Ree Community Hero Award at the NHL Awards in Las Vegas. On stage members of the team were accompanied by Mr. Hogan's widow, Christina, who accepted the award on her husband's behalf. And in her speech she said his legacy would remain in the players he coached.

SOUNDCLIP

Thank you to everyone who has supported the Humboldt Broncos players and families over the past two and a half months. I'm honored to accept this award on behalf of Darcy but not because of what happened to him on April 6 2018 but because of what he did every day before April 6. Darcy is the game of hockey that he was so passionate about as a tool to help shape young lives. He developed a core covenant which was painted on the wall outside the Broncos dressing room. It reads as follows: "Family first. Treat my teammates and co-workers with respect. Be thankful for the opportunity to wear the Broncos jersey. Play each game and practice with passion and determination. Conduct ourselves with honesty and integrity. Treat all volunteers, billet, sponsors and fans with respect and gratitude. Understand that we are building foundations for future generations with our words and actions. Always have hope and believe that everything is possible. Always give more than you take. Strive for greatness in all areas of life." It does not mention wins or championships because Darcy's purpose as a coach was to impact lives and develop strong character. His legacy is far more than what is recorded on the set sheets. It is measured by the lives and communities that are better off for having Darcy in them. It is now up to those individuals to pay forward his legacy onto others. For that reason what's happening here tonight in Vegas must not stay in Vegas the torch has been passed. Thank you.

[Cheers and applause]

JD: Christina. Hogan is the widow of Humboldt Broncos coach, head coach, Darcy Hogan. She was accepting the inaugural Willie O'Ree Community award on behalf of his behalf at the NHL Awards in Las Vegas last night. Darcy Hogan was one of 16 people killed when the Broncos bus collided with the truck in April.

[Music]

JD: Coming up on the program tomorrow we will have the story of Julie Eldred whose case is currently being decided by the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court. Ms. Eldred was out on probation for stealing jewelry when she relapsed after just 11 days. And even though she was still going through addiction treatment, Ms. Eldred was sent back to prison. And that is something that her lawyer Lisa Newman-Polk argues is unconstitutional, in this landmark case. And here's part of her conversation with Carol.

SOUNDCLIP

The specific order to be drug free and to impose a punitive criminal sanction on somebody who is addicted to substances and then relapses, that I argue is unconstitutional because my basic claim is substance use disorder is a medical diagnosis and relapse is a symptom of this disorder.

JD: You can hear that interview with Lawyer Lisa Newman-Polk tomorrow on As It Happens.

[Music]

Human remains in artifacts box

JD: On Tuesday a mysterious box arrived at the offices of the Inuit Tapiriit Kanatami. That's the national Inuit organization. And inside the box were some artifacts and a note of apology. But as staff looked through the box they also discovered what appeared to be human remains. Natan Obed is the president of ITK. We reached him in Ottawa.

CO: Mr. Obed what were your first thoughts when you heard that a mysterious box had arrived at your offices?

NATAN OBED: Well I was actually in Yellowknife in the Northwest Territories attending heritage ministers meeting with provincial territorial and federal ministers, and we were discussing repatriation of sacred objects. And so it was apropos but also very disturbing at the same time to know that human remains had been dropped off at our office with an anonymous note but with very little ceremony.

CO: Extraordinary. I want to ask you about the human remains in a moment but can you describe what else was in that box?

NO: There were a few carvings, a wall hanging, a note and then a human jawbone.

CO: I am going to read. This is very short and that cryptic and it just just says so much that I want to ask you about. This brief letter: "Dear Inuit people, in the 1950s, my father visited what was then Frobisher Bay. He found or perhaps was given these artifacts but they are yours. Please accept them with my apologies for keeping them so long." And it's unsigned. What does all that say to you?

NO: Well first there's a moral consideration within that paragraph. The person who wrote it was obviously conflicted about the items that were in her father's or his father's collection. It speaks to me of a person recognizing that the way in which people considered indigenous peoples and collected are human remains and other artifacts was wrong and that it needs to be rectified. We as Inuit have very clear customs around how we treat those places and those grave sites. But in that time and in the colonial period, non-indigenous people who were in the Arctic often did not respect those graves and took bones and took other items within those graves for curiosities or to be put in museums or private collections. So I'm just imagining back about what might have happened. And that's the scenario that I imagine.

CO: There's no way that people would have given this man human remains of their ancestors.

NO: No. That would categorically never happen. We, just like any society on this planet, have very clear rules about the sanctity of our deceased.

CO: And yet in this letter the person says that their father found or perhaps was given these artifacts. So that reflects that the person who wrote the letter who's giving them back and apologizing doesn't quite understand how they came into the possession of their father.

NO: Yes to be sympathetic to the person who wrote the letter. Nobody wants to think of their parents or their grandparents or the people that they love participating in awful things, and things that are counter to accepted norms of our society today. And a lot of Canada's history is tied up with human rights abuses towards indigenous peoples and terrible things that happened that people were responsible for. So I understand why the wording is structured in such a way as to not assign blame or fault. And it isn't my job to shame the descendants of people who did things that were disrespectful as part of the legacy of their forefathers. I think it is imperative that we do things to correct the wrongs of the past. I'm more than happy to have those dialogues and conversations. But we can at least acknowledge that what happened was wrong.

CO: What is it that is wrong with the way this happened? What is it you want? Why are you trying to find the person who would turn this in and talk to them?

NO: I'll put this into a universal perspective. If any one individual came into possession of human remains, they would want to be able to help identify where those human remains came from and put that individual back to their proper resting place. That is just a universal thing. So the fact that Indigenous people and Indigenous peoples human remains were treated as artifacts and objects to be collected by museums or private collections in another time does not mean that in 2018 that those who hold those items still have to think the same way. So boxing up a couple of pieces of art and a wall hanging and a jawbone. That may have been in the same realm of a collection in the 1800s and 1900s in this country. But today we hope that those who are in possession of these items would think of it as a human being and take all the necessary steps that they would take if it was their loved one, if it was somebody that they cared about.

CO: Mr. Obed I Really appreciate speaking with you. This is really important information for people and thank you.

NO: Thanks for having me.

JD: Natan Obed is president of Inuit Tapiriit Kanatami we reached him in Ottawa.

[Music]

Part 3: Health minister resignation, Twelve-year-old basketball player

Guests: Tunu Napartuk, John-Francois Rioux

Death of Koko the gorilla

JD: Koko was famous for learning sign language and that was impressive but it was also scientifically significant because Koko was a gorilla. Koko died in her sleep on Tuesday. She was 46 years old. She's graced the cover of National Geographic. She is chummed around with the likes of Mister Rogers, Betty White and Robin Williams. But Koko's life among humans was not without controversy. Her lifelong caretaker, Penny Patterson, who taught her how to sign has been criticized for her unorthodox techniques and there were concerns about the welfare of animals in Ms. Patterson's care at the Gorilla Foundation in California. From our archives, here is former As It Happens host Michael Enright, speaking with Penny Patterson about Koko's love life back in 1991.

SOUNDCLIP

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: Ms. Patterson before we talk about Koko and her mate, let me understand, you used videotaping to find her a companion.

PENNY PATTERSON: Well yes. It wasn't exactly as though she got to pick the candidate that she liked but it turned out that way.

ME: Video dating, I take it, it's called.

PP: Yes.

ME: How did you work that? What did you do?

PP: Well what we did is we showed her videotapes and also photographs of other male gorillas. And she viewed the tapes, watched most of them, turn her back on some of them and even kissed the screen on one or two.

ME: Tell me about Koko. Where was she born?

PP: She was born at the San Francisco Zoo, on July 4th 1971.

ME: You've taught her a language. You've told her American Sign Language.

PP: Right. That was the purpose of the project was to see if a gorilla could learn gestural language and she has proven that to be true.

ME: Tell me about her vocabulary.

PP: Her vocabulary is probably over a thousand different signs. We have still yet to chart the second ten years of the project on the computer. So I can't give you an exact figure. But after the first ten years she had used almost 900 different turns.

ME: Now has her newfound friend that she got off the video dating service has he arrived?

PP: He has arrived, a week ago. A.

ME: And how are they getting along?

PP: Well he is in quarantine right now. She can see him through a window. Today was the first day that he really came up to the window so that she could get a good look at his face. And she didn't want me to have anything to do with him after that and told me that I blew it, when I went up to the window.

ME: How did she tell you that?

PP: She just signed it.

ME: What did she sign?

PP: For 'you blew it'.

ME: 'You dummy. et out-' What did she say?

PP: She just didn't want me to be near there. Now whether this is jealousy or whether maybe she thinks it's unsafe, I don't know.

ME: And she's signed this, did she? She, in sense, gave you the finger, I guess.

PP: [Laughs].

JD: From the archives. That was Michael Enright conversation with Koko's caretaker Penny Patterson. Koko the gorilla who could sign died this week in her sleep. She was 46 years old. We've posted more about Koko on our Web site.

[Music]

Father of Quebec mosque attacker speaks publicly

JD: Today Raymond Bissonnette expressed his sympathy to his son's victims but he also expressed sympathy for his son. Today Ms. Bissonette spoke publicly for the first time. Earlier this year, his son Alexandra pleaded guilty to murdering six people and critically injuring five others in his attack on a Quebec City mosque. Today was the final day of sentencing arguments for him in Quebec Superior Court. In his statements Raymond Bissonette expressed his sorrow to the Muslim community but he also said that the Crown has "demonized" his son. The Crown is requesting that Alexande Bissonnette serve six back to back life sentences which would mean he would not be eligible for parole for 150 years. His dad says that is essentially a death sentence. Here's part of what he said today.

SOUNDCLIP

Alexander took responsibility for his terrible crime. And he pleaded guilty as soon as he could. He sincerely regrets what he did. He will be condemned to a life in prison. Without any possibility of parole for at least 25 years or possibly much more or never. Alexandre is not a monster. The psychiatrist who testified explained the possible causes that brought him to commit this terrible crime. Namely intensive bullying indured during his years in school. During these years all our efforts to end the bullying failed; numerous meetings with school directors, school board and teachers did not help end the bullying. In the closing arguments the Crown said that all young people are bullied and sometime in their lives and don't commit serious crimes. I think that this opinion does not do justice to the serious damage and suffering caused by bullying and intimidation. I have trouble understanding the Crown's attitude in ignoring Alexander's mental health problems. No psychiatric examination was ordered by the crown after Alexander's arrest despite the fact that his words pronounced to the police suggested that he wasn't thinking normally. I fear that in my son's case. The Crown is actually seeking a political not a judicial sentence. Nobody is immune to mental health problems. This terrible disease has no color, religion or gender. It's also impossible to predict when the sickness will strike. And I surely do not wish any money you ever know anybody or have anyone in your family who will have it.

JD: That was Raymond Bissonette the father of Alexandra Bissonette giving a statement to the media earlier today. Alexandre Bissonette is expected to be sentenced in October.

[Music]

Minister Gaetan Barrette’s comments regarding medevac

JD: Tonight the calls are continuing for Quebec’s health minister to resign. The Assembly of First Nations says that a recording of gay buffets comments at an event a couple of weeks ago reveals discrimination at the highest level of the provincial government. The minister was at an event in [unintelligible] when he was asked why it was taking so long to allow parents from remote Northern communities to join their sick or injured kids on medevac flights to the south. The problematic part of his response was this.

SOUNDCLIP

Follow that in the news. I guarantee you that there will be at least one instance in the next six months, where someone will not be made allowed to get on the plane. Why? Because no one, agitated, drugged or under whatever influence would get on the plane. that will never happen.

JD: Quebec Health Minister Gaetan Barrette speaking earlier this month. And the audio was kind of muddy there. So if you couldn't make it out what the minister was saying was essentially, 'I guarantee you there will be at least one instance in the next six months where someone will not be allowed to get on the plane. Why? Because no one agitated, drugged, under whatever influence will get on the plane'. Well those comments have Tunu Napartuk calling for the minister to resign. Mr. Napartuk is the mayor of Kuujjuaq a small community in northern Quebec and that is where we reached him.

CO: Mayor Napartuk, why do those comments make it necessary for the minister to resign?

TUNU NAPARTUK: Because his comments are directed their very direct towards the Inuit community. And I have to say those comments have two subjects in them. First he begins about the medical evacuations that we have to deal with on a very regular basis. But also the general aviation industry. Of course no one agitated or drunk will be allowed but the fact of the matter is he's talking about medevacs that he is held responsible as a health minister. And what he says about agitated and drunk persons not being allowed is directed at my people.

CO: Do you regard it as racist?

TN: The more I listen to his comments the more I read his transcript confirms those are very racist comments. To listen to those comments is very hurtful, very painful, very inappropriate. It's stereotyping, generalizing my Inuit population and I find that it's unacceptable.

CO: Now when you learn that Quebec government had changed its policy. It was going to allow your parents to accompany their children in these medevacs, that was just a while ago. Did that feel like a victory at that point?

TN: I don't know if victory is the right word. It was a relief. It was a huge relief. The scenario is you have a sick child. You don't know how the child is going to react medically, if they're going to survive and you're not able to be with your child as a mother. And for the policy to be changed it's not in effect yet. There's some things that they still need to work on. The policy to be changed, it was such a huge relief. Now a mother will be able to be side by side with their child in a medical emergency.

CO: That's pretty standard practice in Canada, that parents go with their kids when they're being evacuated, especially long distances.

TN: That's what we found out, just about a year ago when regional doctors in two of our health centers made a public outcry of this practice for us Inuits to receive the services. We thought it was a regular practice all across the country. But it turns out Quebec is basically the only one to have such policy would even allow a mother to board on medical evacuation with their child. And that's when things are attitude and request for change of policy became stronger and that's what we've been working on for the past year.

CO: That was the day the association of pediatricians brought that out, this is not the practice anywhere else in Canada. And it came at the same time as the story of this of this woman, this mom, who had to see her child take on a medevac flight without her. She had to try and get a regular scheduled flight in very difficult blizzard conditions finally arrived after it was too late and that she wasn't with him to say goodbye when he was dying. That was the story that finally pushed it over isn't it?

TN: It's very unfair. It's very unfair and it's very painful to hear such incident. And it was a moment where we had to decide OK enough is enough. We're being treated unfairly. We're being treated different. If it's a question of cost, it should be a question of cost. But it's a question of a basic human right where a mother needs to be by a child who is sick.

CO: The same minister resisted that time didn't he? He said that the planes couldn't take passengers because they weren't equipped to do so.

TN: When I had asked for his resignation publicly earlier today, the minister called me directly and we spoke and I had to remind him it was him who resisted this change.

CO: And what did he say when you had that conversation?

TN: Interesting conversation. He attempted to explain his comments that there were misconstrued and misunderstood that he was talking about the aviation industry in general. We just listened to the recording and it was really directed that his guarantee that it will happen in the next six months. And because I could not accept his explanation, he did not apologize on the fact that he, of my understanding, that his comments were directed at my people, the Inuits of Nunavut, I just could not accept his explanation or his attempt to apologize.

CO: I was listening to an Inuit woman on Anna Maria's program this morning, on The Current, who said that this is not just something that you should be upset about. This should be something that Canadians are upset about. What response do you want from people outside of your community in Quebec?

TN: How would they feel if I made such comments as a knave thoughts and a group of people and if I said that publicly and my comments were aired like this. Everyone would feel and understand that an Inuit I would have such feelings towards certain group of people but, in the first place, I need to hear the Ministry of Health Gaetan Barrette publicly apologize for making such racist comments. And second, I would ask for his resignation if we don't accept his comments. If we go against it then the world will become a better place. We're going in the right direction, bit by bit but you have to start from him.

CO: What did you say to the minister as you ended that conversation today?

TN: That I did not accept his explanation of why he made those comments. I told him I did not accept his attempt at apologizing for those types of comments. And that given the opportunity I will publicly ask for his resignation.

CO: Well I think you have done that Mayor Napartuk.

TN: It's very unfortunate. It's a waste of energy and time we have so many other issues that we need to deal with and it's unfortunate that we're talking about such a subject that no one should accept anymore from anywhere from any group or nation or country.

CO: Mayor Napartuk I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

TN: Thank you for the opportunity.

JD: Tunu Napartuk is the mayor of could you walk in northern Quebec and that is where we reached him earlier today. Afterwards Minister Barrette was asked by reporters about that conversation with MAyor Napartuk.

SOUNDCLIP

GAETAN BARRETTE: When he told me and that conversation, he very specific he said that he was waiting for me to meet to do to present that publicly, that apology which I'm doing today, and I deeply regret that this has happened. And I did offer my most sincere apologies to the mayor and as such to all the community first nations across this province. Look if there is something that I am not is a racist, number one. And number two, I'm quite aware of the sensitivity of that issue and all the problems that the First Nations do live with and the challenges that are facing in this province and across this country. And steps were to be made and signals were to be sent by our governments so that we could move forward. So this is a community that I know. I visited many times. I can understand their challenges and we've taken action. And I have taken action that were demanded for transportation. So to conclude that I'm not feeling those issue myself, well I kind of descend the sensitivity of that and the reaction and apologize for that I'm quite sorry about that. But at the end of the day, can we move on?

JOURNALIST: When you were referring, when you were making these remarks you were not talking specifically about indigenous people.

GAETAN BARRETTE: Absolutely.

JOURNALIST: This is severely a problem of context to the bias largely [unintelligible] to indigenous people.

GAETAN BARRETTE: No no no no absolutely not. You know there are no instances where something like that did happen that is related to First Nations, but we have instances where planes have to land because of that. It's you and me not you and me personally but it happen only in that part of society. Clearly I was referring not to First Nations because this is exactly what we see in the news. When was the first time you heard about something like that related to First Nations. Never. It never happened. There is no statistics, there's no instances that I know of. But on a regular basis you have instances about us doing that. And I took that example, us being the non-indigenous people community.

JD: That was Quebec Health Minister Gaetan Barrette this afternoon in Quebec City.

[Music]

Montreal’s Metro cars

JD: Since the Metro opened in Montreal in the mid-1960s that was blue and white cars, known as the MR63s, have been there. Here's how they were described back then.

SOUNDCLIP

Montreal's first metro is also, so far as I can discover, the only underground railway which doesn't use rails. The rolling truck runs along a reinforced concrete track on [unintelligible] wheels. It is more like riding on a bus but much quieter and more comfortable. Obviously London can learn a lot from Montreal trains on tyre.

JD: Well it is the end of the line for those MR63. Today was their last day in service. Philippe Schnobb is the chairman of the board of directors at the STM and Benoit Clairoux is an historian and public affairs adviser with the Transport Agency. The two of them spoke with CBC Montreal earlier this week. Here's part of that interview beginning with the question to Monsieur Schnobb.

SOUNDCLIP

STEVE RUKAVINA: There's an internal STM newsletter where one employee said he thought the MR63s could keep going for another 20 years so...

PS: The fact that they had been running for 52 years is a great thing. You don't see that kind of longevity in a lot of Metro Networks and I think that they have to say that our maintenance employees were very important for that because they rebuild the train over the years a few times. Because you don't go to a store to buy parts for those trains so you haven [cross talking] and so I think that our maintenance employees of a great importance for photos for the fact that the trains have been running for 52 years.

STEVE RUKAVINA: But why retire them now?

PS: Well it's because it's time, at one point that you have to you have to conclude that it's not a comically valuable to continue to do the maintenance.

BENOIT CLAIROUX: It's tough to find some parts but also the MR63 I love that you know but it doesn't give the same comfort as the new trains, Azure. There's even some people on the orange line, there are still a few MR73s. So when people see the MR73 they just send it away. They wait for the next train. So we have to unfortunately you know let the MR63s go away.

STEVE RUKAVINA: Is it with a heavy heart this week for you, like do you have a sentimental attachment to these?

BC: Yes. And I think I'm not the only one. Many people we talk about the maintenance crew also some of the operators. These were good trains and they were there for 52 years. They travel one point four billion kilometers, 52 years. So I mean it's something big and we wanted to let them go you know in the proper way, with the kind of homage you know.

JD: That was the STM Philippe Schnobb an dBenoit Clairoux speaking with the CBC's Steve Rukavina earlier this week on Daybreak Montreal.

[Music]

Twelve-year-old basketball player

JD: When Olivier Rioux was invited to play in a basketball tournament in Spain he thought it would be a fun trip. But ever since the 12 year old has traveled all over the world, at least virtually. A video of young Olivier has now been seen over 700,000 times and has attracted the likes of NBA stars like Steph Curry and Jamal Murray. In the clip Olivier can be seen shooting hoops and dominating on the court, and not just by way of his skills, but also just because he is a way taller than everyone else. Jean-Francois Rioux is Olivier's father. We reached him in Montreal.

CO: John Francois. How tall is your son?

JOHN FRANCOIS RIOUX: Olivier is actually 6'11 easily.

CO: And he's 12 years old.

JR: Yes for sure. He's 12 years old, he turned 12 on February 2.

CO: What are you feeding him.

JR: Oh my God. Lots of things. He has a big appetite.

CO: And your other son is pretty tall as well right?

JR: Yes. Emile is 6'9, he is 15 years old.

CO: Good heavens. And now where does his height come from? Are you are you tall?

JR: Yes I'm 6'8 actually. And I have a few uncles that are pretty tall in a mother of Olivier is also 6'1.

CO: My Gosh. What shoe size is the view wearing at this point?

JR: He is wearing 21.

CO: So you're also spending a lot of running shoes.

JR: Yes. It's not easy to find and it's very expensive. That's for sure.

CO: Now was son getting a lot of attention before his video of him went viral when he played in Spain?

JR: He did have some attention in Quebec and some in Ontario. But the video went viral since it did play one tournament on the eight point five feet. Oops you got a lot of attention.

CO: I mean 700,000 people have viewed this already I'm sure as we speak, it's going up. But it's amazing to see him because he just towers over the other boys his age.

JR: Yes. The main thing is with these hoops he was able to be great and to perform that's for sure.

CO: Does he normally play with those eight feet hoops?

JR: No he plays with the 10 feet hoops like the older guys. So right now he plays U14.

CO: In the video. Well it's hilarious isn't it because the other boys his age come up to about his waist.

JR: It's actually like this in his class in his everyday life.

CO: And the other boys are just in awe of him. You can see that they're just looking up and he's very very skilled player to begin with. He is just shooting the hoops backwards. He's just standing there catching the ball, way over the kids heads and is putting it in the hoop. He got bored at some point, it was so easy.

JR: Oh no it was not that easy. If you look at the game it was never that easy right. Running on the floor up and down and doing all the things it wasn't that easy. That's for sure. And the rules in Spain are not the same. The three points are closer. People don't understand that.

CO: What kind of international reaction and attention is your son getting since then.

JR: Lots of attention. It's a lot more than what we think. And since the NBA players like Steph Curry and [unintelligible] have written on their Instagram and Facebook. There's lots of reaction.

CO: What are they saying? What is Steph Curry saying?

JR: Steph Curry said so much question. So it's like 'Is he really 12 years old? Is he really 6'11? Why does he play on Small hoops?' But this was a one time. This was an international tournament. And they played by rules.

CO: Okay now other player in Philadelphia 76 years Joel Embiid. What did he tweet?

JR: He rweet something about the trash talking. It was a huge game because the other kids on the other side made the 54 points per game. So Olivier had to be in his game. Olivier just did just that to control that.

CO: Some of them have wanted to take their picture taken with him as well. Right?

JR: Yes. This weekend was a 14 tournament in Canada. And it happens to be an NBA event with the NBA junior or U14 tournament. And Jamal Murray was there and remember he was taking picture with other kids. And he went and see Olivier and ask him 'can I take a picture with you' . It's Jamal Murray that asked that question, that was the main thing and Olivier find that hilarious.

CO: How is he taking all this attention?

JR: Oh he's a lot surprised. He say 'Oh it's bizarre. I don't understand'. He likes it but he doesn't have a Facebook. He's not there and we don't put him that much attention to that.

CO: Has he finished growing do you think?

JR: No I don't think so. It's like you read it recently. We met a few people and they said 'Oh when I was that age I was not that tall' and the guy was a 7'2 players.

CO: Right. Okay well I guess he's going for the heights then.

JR: Oh I think so.

CO: John Francois give your son our best and thank you for speaking with us.

JR: Oh thank you so much for the interest and have a great day.

JD: Jean-Francois Rioux is the father of Olivier Rioux a 12 year old basketball player who stands 6 foot 11 inch tall. We reached are you in Montreal.

[Music].

JD: The doo wop revival group Sha Na Na live at Woodstock in 1969 in a performance that did not define a generation. We know that concert took place because of the artifacts that prove its existence; an album, a movie and the 26 million people who claim to have attended a musical festival that half a million people actually did attend. Yet what do we really know about Woodstock. Really. The answer is: just about everything because of over excited baby boomers. But even after the exhaustive documentation there are questions, questions like what actually did happen when you took the brown acid? And where exactly was the stage? The answer to that first question is time is a kaleidoscopic horse that sings your life to you. The answer to the second is: we don't know yet but a team of archaeologists is on it. Yes, archaeologists. The same people who on earth ancient civilizations recently applied their expertise to the land that was once Max Yasgur's farm. And during that dig they discovered evidence of the fence that kept the crowds from the stage, the so-called peace fence. And by cross referencing the location of that fence with aerial photographs the archaeologists believe they can establish the precise location of the stage. The stage where Jimi Hendrix blew minds with his scorching performance of the Star-Spangled Banner. Now it's not clear what will happen once they figure that out but next year will be the 50th anniversary of Woodstock so I'm sure someone is planning to rebuild it which will allow everyone who was there, and everyone who wasn't but says they were, to relive again an important stage in their lives.

June 21 episode transcript

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