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The AIH Transcript for December 27, 2016

Hosts: Helen Mann and Jeff Douglas

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

HELEN MANN: Hello, I'm Helen Mann

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening, I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight:

HM: A fare for fashion. A Bangladeshi labour leader says that hundreds of garment workers have been fired after protests for higher wages – in order to put clothes on so many of our backs.

JD: Force majeure. We remember Carrie Fisher, the actor who led the Rebellion against The Dark Side in Star Was before going public with her private battle against a dark side of her own.

HM: No account whatsoever. Vera Sung's family bank was the only institution busted for the 2008 mortgage crisis and she and the film-maker behind "Abacus: Small Enough To Jail" say they didn't deserve that fate.

JD: Holy prayer. Roch Carrier returns with a reading of The Hockey Sweater about a catalogue sin, a sacrilegious jersey, and a plea that moths would come and chew the thing away.

HM: Bray for me. Our As It Happened archival feature brings together a menagerie of four-legged finds, including a kick-ask interview with a donkey-impersonator who's animal was taken to court.

JD: And...boulevard of broken dreams. A small French town renames a street to celebrate Britain's exit from the EU, but the 'rue du Brexit' just goes around in circles prompting critics to suggest it is a symbol of just how hard it will be to leave.

As It Happens, the Tuesday edition. Radio that figures they may rue that decision.

[Music]

Part 1: Bangladesh workers, reading: The Hockey Sweater

Bangladesh worker’s union

Guest: Taslima Akhter

JD: For a week, many Bangladesh garment workers refused to work. Their demand was simple: they wanted better wages. And, after protests and clashes with police, factories making clothes for brands like H&M and GAP, have now re-opened. But 1500 workers have been fired and blacklisted. And dozens of labour leaders have been arrested. Taslima Akhter is President of the Garment Workers Solidarity group. We reached her in Dhaka, Bangladesh.

HM: Ms. Akhter, How did the workers react when they found out today that they had been fired?

TASLIMA AKHTER: They're afraid to stay at their own home. They're thinking that any time police can come and arrest them and that is the end of the month and they don't know when they will get their salary, their benefits and other things.

HM: Yeah. Why were the workers fired? What reason were they given?

TA: The allegation from the owners that the workers were try to organize other workers for protests. That is the allegation. But we think that to do protests is to workers and even citizen’s constitutional right, so they can raise voice for factory demands and increasing minimum wage.

HM: So they're in trouble for organizing essentially or being accused of organizing these kind of protests?

TA: Yeah. In theory, in paper, workers can do protests, they can do union, trade union, but in practice, when any worker try to organize themselves, try to raise their voice for any demand, then factory owners usually fire workers.

HM: They're currently paid about 90 Canadian dollars a month. How much money do they want?

TA: They want Bangladeshi Taka 10,000. It is like $128 for basic and $205 for gross salary.

HM: Now the government has used where it's called the Special Powers Act to detain some of the workers and the union leaders. How many of them are still in jail that you know?

TA: More than 27 workers and workers leader are arrested and they're in jail and they are interrogation now. Yeah.

HM: Tell us what brand name clothing stores these factory workers supply. What companies would we know that they are providing clothing for?

TA: There are different kind of international brand. H&M, Wal-Mart, who give order in these kinds of factor,y but they don't want to give more penny for each T-shirt or other products.

HM: Yes some of those companies say they buy from the manufacturers, so you know it's up to the manufacturers to increase those salaries. What do you say to that?

TA: They are not… they are not giving more money for product. All that after Rana Plaza and [unintelligible] international brands buyer and our owners also trying to say that they are more conscious about wage, more conscious about safety. But in practical sense we see that they are not increasing minimum wage or penny for each product.

HM: You mentioned Rana Plaza. Just to remind people, that got worldwide attention three years ago when the building collapsed and many people died. That accord those companies signed… many companies around the world at least said that they would support safety checks and better conditions for the workers. Has anything changed at least in terms of the condition of those factories since that time?

TA: After Rana Plaza, our government owner and international buyer brands, they are bound to say that yes we are we're more conscious about our safety. Maybe this is the development. But when we see that all responsible persons, the owner of Rana Plaza, the owner of the factories, they have not got punishment yet.

HM: The workers that you know, can you share some stories, just one or two people perhaps, that we would understand what their lives are like now that they've lost their jobs because of this protest?

TA: Yeah. Today I've got a few phone calls from our workers and they're saying that they're very much afraid to stay in their home. They don't know what to do now.

HM: Why are they afraid to go home?

TA: Because the police are trying to find workers and ruling parties’ local activists. They are also looking workers who are trying to organize supporters inside the factory every night. So they're very… there's a panic situation in workers area, so who have some allegation and who are fired. They are afraid to stay in their house.

HM: Are the fired workers likely to be able to find new jobs?

TA: It's not very easy to get new job. The factory owners they make a big list and they hang this list in front of the factory gate with the workers’ photos. So it's a big problem for workers who are already fired or who sued for protest.

HM: This is a big shopping week in Canada with a lot of sales following the Christmas holiday. A lot of people going out to stores right now. What would you like them to know about the things they might be considering buying?

TA: I think as international consumers, they can give pressure on brands and buyers to pay more penny for these products. And if they try to do no profit and give some benefits to workers, that will be a good thing I think.

HM: So you don't think they should boycott those stores?

TA: No no no. I don't think so.

HM: And that is why, because they need the jobs?

TA: Yes. And this is not… this problem is not solved… will not solve by boycotting buying cloths. If we change the working condition, if we increase the minimum wage if we ensure the safety of trade union rights then the situation will develop. And it's not dependent on the workers. It depends on owner, government, international brands and buyers. So a boycott is not the solution.

HM: Ms. Akhter thank you very much for speaking with us.

TA: Thank you. All right bye bye bye

JD: Taslima Akhter is president of the Garment Workers Solidarity Group. We reached her in Dhaka Bangladesh.

[Music]

Carrie Fisher Obit

JD: She was best known for her role as Princess Leia. But Carrie Fisher was beloved for her work down here on Earth as well. Her off screen persona was magnetic. She was hilarious and frank about her struggles with mental illness and addiction. Carrie Fisher died today after suffering a heart attack earlier this week. She was just 60 years old. And tomorrow, we're going to play archival tape from a 1987 interview, of her talking to the CBC about her first novel Postcards from the Edge.
Carrie Fisher went on to write many more bestselling books both fiction and nonfiction. She transformed one of her memoirs Wishful Drinking into a popular stage show, and we're going to play a clip of that in just a minute. First however, here she is talking about her marriage to a famous musician, on David Letterman in 2009.

SOUNDCLIP

DAVID LETTERMAN: And then, and help me if I’m wrong, married to Paul Simon.

CARRIE FISHER: Oh that's right.

[Sound: Audience laughter, and applause]

DL: Wrote songs about you and the marriage.

CF: Did he?

DL: Yeah yeah.

CF: Wow. Yes he did. And so, you know I like to say that like, it is kind of trippy you know, 15 20 years down the line, to turn on the radio and hear yourself complained about in song.

DL: Ouch.

CF: Well you know he wrote a song about me called “Allergies.” And the lyric was “my heart is allergic to the woman I love and it's changing the shape of my face.”

[Sound: laughter]

CF: Is that flattering?

DL: Yeah.

JD: That was Carrie Fisher speaking to David Letterman in 2009. And much of her 2008 Memoir Wishful Drinking was about her time in the Star Wars universe. And she, as I mentioned, adapted that book into a one woman stage show.
Here is her description of a conversation she had with Star Wars director and creator, George Lucas.

SOUNDCLIP

CARRIE FISHER: Oh and do you remember that white dress I wore all through the first film? I mean, unless you didn't see Star Wars, in which case, why are you here? So they put the dress on me the first day, they bring me to George. He takes one look at me and he says, “You can't wear a bra underneath that dress.” So I say “Why?” He says because, “There's no underwear in space.” [Sound: audience laughter]. I swear to god. I promise you that he said this. And the man said it with such conviction too. Like he'd actually been to space, looked around, didn’t see any bras or panties or briefs.

JD: That's a clip from Carrie Fisher’s a one woman show Wishful Drinking. In the book she wrote that George Lucas explained that her body would expand in space but her bra would not and thus she would be strangled by it. Or something like that. And then she went on to finish the story like this. “Now I think that this would make for a fantastic obit. So I tell my younger friends that no matter how I go I want it reported that I drowned in moonlight strangled by my own bra.” Carrie Fisher died today. She was 60 years old.

[Music]

Reading: The Hockey Sweater

Guest: Roch Carrier

If you're of a certain age, you may remember a time when holiday shopping was not done online. It was done through a store catalogue. It's a time that Roch Carrier remembers well. Because when he was a young boy, a catalogue order that his mother made went very, very wrong.
You know what I'm talking about. Beloved Canadian story based on his own childhood in Ste. Justine, Quebec.
Here's Roch Carrier reading from his children's book: "The Hockey Sweater."

SOUNDCLIP

The winters of my childhood were long, long seasons. We lived in three places – the school, the church, and the skating-rink, but our real life was on the skating-rink. Real battles were won on the skating-rink. Real strength appeared on the skating-rink. The real leaders showed themselves on the skating-rink. School was a sort of punishment. Parents always want to punish children and school is their most natural way of punishing us. However, school was also a quiet place where we could prepare for the next hockey game, lay out our next strategies. As for church, we found there the tranquillity of God: there we forgot school and dreamed about the next hockey game. Through our daydreams it might happen that we would recite a prayer: we would ask God to help us play as well as Maurice Richard.

We all wore the same uniform as he, the red, white, and blue uniform of the Montreal Canadiens, the best hockey team in the world; we all combed our hair in the same style as Maurice Richard, and to keep it in place we used a sort of glue – a great deal of glue. We laced our skates like Maurice Richard, we taped our sticks like Maurice Richard. We cut all his pictures out of the papers. Truly, we knew everything about him.

On the ice, when the referee blew his whistle the two teams would rush at the puck; we were five Maurice Richards taking it away from five other Maurice Richards; we were ten players, all of us wearing with the same blazing enthusiasm the uniform of the Montreal Canadiens. On our backs, we all wore the famous number 9.

One day, my Montreal Canadiens sweater had become too small; then it got torn and had holes in it.

My mother said: "If you wear that old sweater people are going to think we're poor!"

Then she did what she did whenever we needed new clothes. She started to leaf through the catalogue the Eaton company sent us in the mail every year. My mother was proud. She didn't want to buy our clothes at the general store; the only things that were good enough for us were the latest styles from Eaton's catalogue. My mother didn't like the order forms included with the catalogue; they were written in English and she didn't understand a word of it. To order my hockey sweater, she did as she usually did; she took out her writing paper and wrote in her gentle schoolteacher's hand:

"Cher Monsieur Eaton, Would you be kind enough to send me a Canadiens sweater for my son who is ten years old and a little too tall for his age and Docteur Robitaille thinks he's a little too thin? I'm sending you three dollars and please send me what's left if there's anything left. I hope your wrapping will be better than last time."

Monsieur Eaton was quick to answer my mother's letter. Two weeks later we received the sweater. That day I had one of the greatest disappointments of my life! I would even say that on that day I experienced a very great sorrow. Instead of the red, white, and blue Montreal Canadiens sweater, Monsieur Eaton had sent us a blue and white sweater with a maple leaf on the front - the sweater of the Toronto Maple Leafs. I'd always worn the red, white, and blue Montreal Canadiens sweater; all my friends wore the red, white, and blue sweater; never had anyone in my village ever worn the Toronto sweater, never had we even seen a Toronto Maple Leafs sweater. Besides, the Toronto team was regularly trounced by the triumphant Canadiens. With tears in my eyes, I found the strength to say:

"I'll never wear that uniform."

"My boy, first you're going to try it on! If you make up your mind about things before you try, my boy, you won't go very far in this life."

My mother had pulled the blue and white Toronto Maple Leafs sweater over my shoulders and already my arms were inside the sleeves. She pulled the sweater down and carefully smoothed all the creases in the abominable maple leaf on which, right in the middle of my chest, were written the words "Toronto Maple Leafs". I wept.

"I'll never wear it."

"Why not? This sweater fits you ... like a glove."

"Maurice Richard would never put it on his back."

"You aren't Maurice Richard. Anyway, it isn't what's on your back that counts, it's what you've got inside your head."

“You'll never put it in my head to wear a Toronto Maple Leafs sweater."

My mother sighed in despair and explained to me: "if you don't keep this sweater which fits you perfectly I'll have to write Monsieur Eaton and explain that you don't want to wear the Toronto sweater. Monsieur Eaton's an Anglais; he'll be insulted because he likes the Maple Leafs. And if he's insulted do you think he'll be in a hurry to answer us? Spring will be here and you won't have played a single game, just because you didn't want to wear that perfectly nice blue sweater."

So I was obliged to wear the Maple Leafs sweater. When I arrived on the rink, all the Maurice Richards in red, white, and blue came up, one by one, to take a look. When the referee blew his whistle I went to take my usual position. The coach came and warned me I'd be better to stay on the forward line. A few minutes later the second line was called; I jumped onto the ice. The Maple Leafs sweater weighed on my shoulders like a mountain. The coach came and told me to wait; he'd need me later, on defence. By the third period I still hadn't played; one of the defence-men was hit in the nose with a stick and it was bleeding. I jumped on the ice: my moment had come! The referee blew his whistle; he gave me a penalty. He claimed I'd jumped on the ice when there were already five players. That was too much! It was unfair! It was persecution! It was because of my blue sweater! I struck my stick against the ice so hard it broke. Relieved, I bent down to pick up the debris. As I straightened up I saw the young vicar, on skates, before me.

"My child," he said, "just because you're wearing a new Toronto Maple Leafs sweater unlike the others, it doesn't mean you're going to make the laws around here. A proper young man doesn't lose his temper. Now take off your skates and go to the church and ask God to forgive you.

Wearing my Maple Leafs sweater I went to the church, where I prayed to God; I asked him to send, as quickly as possible, moths that would eat up my Toronto Maple Leafs sweater.

JD: That was "The Hockey Sweater," written and read by Roch Carrier. It's published by Tundra Books. And, if you'd like to listen to that story again, you can visit our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Dateline: rue du Brexit

JD: Dateline. Beaucaire, France.
The mayor of this southern French town calls it an hommage to the sovereignty of the British people. He and his colleagues on council are honouring the UK's decision to leave the European Union – with a street.
He's called the street 'rue du Brexit'.
Mayor Sanchez is a rising light in Marine Le Pen's nationalist Front National – a party that's called for a similar referendum on EU membership. Beaucaire's newest street first crosses Rue Robert Schuman and then avenue Jean Monnet – named after the EU's French founders. Some suggest that the rue is basically just a route from Europe back to Europe.
'Rue du Brexit' isn't winning universal praise. Residents have spoken out against using such an anglicanism. Others, couldn't really care less, less since the street is located in an ugly industrial park

Part 2: Encore: Abacus: Small Enough to Jail

Encore: Abacus: Small Enough To Jail

Guest: Vera Sung, Steve James

JD: In the aftermath of the 2008 mortgage crisis, one message was clear: some banks, no matter what they had done, were simply too big to fail. But the public was angry. They had been suffered through the worst catastrophe to hit the world economy since the Great Depression. Someone had to pay.
In 2012, 184 criminal charges were brought against Abacus Federal Savings Bank, a small family-run bank in New York City's Chinatown. Abacus was the only financial institution to be criminally indicted after the 2008 mortgage crisis.
The story of the bank, and the family that founded it, is the focus of a documentary called Abacus: Small Enough to Jail. It premiered at the Toronto International Film Festival back in September.
Director Steve James, of Hoop Dreams fame, and a member of the bank's founding family, Vera Sung, joined us in studio for a feature interview the day after the premiere. We'll get to them in a minute. But first, here's a clip from the film. In it, you'll hear Abacus founder Thomas Sung and his wife, Hwei Lin, watching the 1946 Christmas classic, It’s a Wonderful Life.

SOUNDCLIP

STEVE JAMES: First time I saw it, It’s a Wonderful Life, I had tremendous respect for George Bailey, who is the main character. He did so much good for the community.

[Sound: It’s a Wonderful Life plays]

SJ: George was lending money to the community to buy houses. And that's exactly the same purpose that when we started the bank, it was our motivation to help a lot of people, a lot of immigrants.

[Sound: It’s a Wonderful Life plays]

HWEI LIN: This movie touches me so much. The family, the friends. I always watch it every year. I watch… that makes me cry. [Sound: It’s a Wonderful Life plays] I wish the story could end the same way as It’s a Wonderful Life. But in reality it is not that simple.

JD: That was a clip from the documentary "Abacus: Small Enough to Jail." Director Steve James and one of the bank's directors, Vera Sung, joined Helen Mann in our Toronto studio for an interview back in September.

SOUNDCLIP

HM: Ms. Sung, we heard a clip of your parents at the beginning of the documentary, we see them watching It’s a Wonderful Life, a movie so many of us have seen over and over again. It has particular resonance for your folks though. Can you tell us what it is about the film, and what it is about your father that drove him to start the bank?

VERA SUNG: Well ever since I was growing up my father always told us that whatever we decide to do in our life and the future, for our career, we must always think about our community and helping the community. So that's one of my earliest memories of my father in terms of guidance for me in my adult life. When he started off as an attorney, he was actually an immigrant himself. He immigrated here and wanted to therefore help other immigrants gain legal status here in the United States. And he realized as he was helping immigrants get their status here, by their homes, it was very hard for them to be able to get loans. He himself encountered the same issue where he himself couldn't even get a loan either. He would deposit money, as well as the rest of the Chinese immigrants would deposit money in the banks. But when it came to borrowing money, they weren't able to do it, for one reason or another. Either the language issue, or a lack of credit. And so he really wanted to help others to be able to get mortgages to be able to buy their homes, which is one of the most important things for a Chinese immigrant.

HM: Obviously he recognized a need because it became a great success, didn't it?

VS: Yes it did. What we did was wherever there was a cry from the community to open, or a need to open a branch, that's where we were so Flushing has an Asian community and Queens, Eighth Avenue in Brooklyn, we were the first to open there. That also has a large Asian community there as well.

HM: So what was the particular incident that triggered this crisis, this investigation that embroiled the bank and your family?

VS: So I was handling a closing for the bank, and this one particular borrower asked their attorney during this closing “What are these checks these extra checks that the loan officer is asking for?” And that's Ken Yu, who is in the movie. And so the bar’s attorney came up to me and asked me what are these extra cheques. And I really didn't understand what this was for. I questioned Ken Yu. He wasn't giving me correct answers and seemed to be hedging and wanting to hide something. I called my sister who's the present CEO and she questioned him herself, didn't like his answers, and she stopped the closing.

HM: So you shut down that mortgage.

VS: Exactly.

HM: And then he lost his job shortly after.

VS: The bank fired him right afterwards.

HM: And then he reported it to regulations.

VS: Yes. And to the law enforcement as well.

HM: Right. Now as we know, we learned through the film too, that that is not the end of the story. Steve James, what was it about the Sung family and the Abacus bank that made you think this would be a good documentary.

STEVE JAMES: Well it's a great story, number one. But it's also I think, a really important story. We've seen a lot of films and books written about the 2008 mortgage crisis and all the frustration about the lack of justice around all that, with the big banks. And then here comes this story that virtually no one knows about unless you're fluent in the Chinese American press, hardly anyone hears about it. And it's and it's sort of like the mirror opposite. You know, you have a small bank with a fraction of the assets of those banks. You have a case where they discovered the fraud, and they reported. And not only did they report it, they actually initiated their own private investigation to root out further fraud, which they did. And they have one of the lowest default rates of any bank in the country. And so this is the bank that that gets brought to “justice” and put on trial.

HM: And as someone standing outside of the family, outside of the bank, why do you think that was? Why did they get indicted for mortgage fraud when none of these other big players did?

SJ: Well in the film, Cyrus Vance Jr. who's the D.A. of New York, he's in the film, he answers for himself on a lot of this. In his view, fraud is fraud, and they felt like they saw that there were some systematic fraud going on at the bank, that the bank was supporting and they needed to be brought to justice. Now I don't share that view is that it was that simple for them. I think that, in this case, this is in his backyard. This is a community bank in his backyard, his jurisdiction. And I think that he saw this as an opportunity to make a mark. And I think, part of what makes me think that, and not just me think that, is the way in which it was all handled. The indictment the day of the announcement of the indictment was quite a spectacle, with chaining together low level and ex-loan officers in a little a chain gang, and marching them down the corridor for the benefit of the press.

HM: That was a shocking image to see. And it was it was in the news in New York as well. What was it like for you, Vera, to see your employees chained together and being marched through the hallway before the media this way?

VS: Terribly upsetting. My sister Chanterelle actually was there. Jill and I and my father were back at the bank trying to handle matters, and Chanterelle reported to me that she had never seen such a spectacle before in her life as a prosecutor. She was actually working in the office, and she called and was in tears. She was literally in tears to see that.

HM: Steve James, what was the broader context for the indictments in terms of they’re making an example of this particular bank. But it's also affecting the culture of people around it. It's affecting a community. Can you give us a sense of how that reverberated?

SJ: Well I mean, it's what we observed, that this bank was really a central part of this community. They, for 30 years, they had been a big part of helping to build the community. And we certainly felt it very palpably whenever we walked around the community especially, with Mr. Sung, he was like the mayor of Chinatown and such. Like people would greet him and thank him. And during the course of the trial, there's a scene in the Barbershop, where he's getting his haircut, where the barber is just talking about how upset he is about what's going on, and what has been going on for literally for five years.

HM: Yeah there are some of the employees who were indicted actually decided to take plea. But your family seemed stoic from the start, that you were going to take this on, you were going to fight it. Was there ever any question that you would do that?

VS: You know it's so interesting that for the actual indictment the D.A. said that you must plead guilty to a felony and you must pay a fine. So at that point, how can you plead guilty when you know you're not guilty and there's no evidence per se to show that you're guilty. We all knew our direction, where we had to go. We had to go to trial. There was no way that we were going to take a guilty plea.

HM: Steve, when we look at, who the victims were supposed to be here, it's hard to find any isn't it?

SJ: It does seem hard to find. In fact, Fannie Mae is the victim of record for the trial, because the mortgages were sold to Fannie Mae, the mortgages that were accused of being fraudulent were sold to Fannie Mae so they are the alleged victim here. And it was a real struggle I think for the prosecution in the case to make that stick because I think Fannie Mae was quite reluctant to be even perceived as a victim because they had actually made hundreds of billions of dollars off these loans that had performed and they were also aware of the unique sort of circumstances of how the bank needed to operate in their community. And you know, in the closing argument, the defense lawyer makes note of a letter from Fannie Mae, saying that we look forward to working with you and your in your own unique ways in which you need to serve your community. So yeah I mean, who was the victim besides the Sung family?

HM: When you were making the film though, how confident were you of the outcome?

SJ: Not at all. This is a film in which we are clearly with the Sungs. We have cast our lot in with them because we believe them to be innocent. It doesn't prevent us though from articulating, I think throughout, the case against them. And we really went to great pains. So all that's in the movie but they were the ones that took the real risk in allowing us in, because not knowing what the outcome is, for them to take that risk with us and say they believed so much in their cause, and what they were doing that they were willing to have us film was quite a statement there.

HM: Vera, the juror who speaks in the film and talks about his feeling that you were innocent, alludes to the fact that some of the members of the jury wanted to make an example of you and your bank, not because of the actions of Abacus, but because of the entire mortgage crisis. And yet your bank never got involved in subprime mortgages. It sounds like you played it pretty straight and narrow role when it came to the kind of mortgage, the kind of business that you did.

VS: That's correct. We… our default rate has been consistent throughout before, during, after, indictment, trial. That has never changed. And as a matter of fact, when most banks were doing subprime loans, our loan volume went down, because we were not partaking in any of that. My sister Jill and my father were adamant that this was wrong and they would not invest in those loans either. So yeah, the whole point about being made an example was something that we were very much aware of when we are going into trial, that jurors potentially would have that feeling.

SJ: I was kind of amazed though that the judge, right before he sent the jury off to deliberate, he made a point to say to them, you are not to assess this case based on what didn't happen with the big banks, essentially, that that that you are only to look at the evidence of this case against this bank and make your judgment. And yet at least one juror just did it anyway, and was the the principal holdout eventually, that caused the deliberations to go on as long as they did.

HM: “Small Enough to Jail” Remind us why that title… why was that so resonant?

SJ: Well it comes from an interview in the film near the beginning from the journalist Matt Taibbi. He says it near the beginning of the film, “Too big to fail turns into small enough to jail.” Referencing obviously, the big banks that did not face any criminal prosecution as institutions, but yet Abacus does.

HM: I have to ask about Ken Yu, who was the bank official, the bank employee who was fired when you had those suspicions that something was going on. He ultimately was the main witness against you. Is that not true?

VS: Yes you would say that he was the star witness.

HM: And this was someone who had been caught taking bribes essentially, or rewards from some of the people who got mortgages.

VS: Correct.

HM: So what does that feel like? How do you deal with knowing that when you're going through all of this?

VS: It's actually shocking. You question why would the prosecution be putting this person as a witness against you, when this is somebody you discovered was doing something wrong and then you did the right thing by immediately firing him. And then you start self-assessment, and he is the one that they're using as one of their main witnesses to testify against you. It's really shocking actually.

HM: Did you ever have any self-doubt? Did any of your sisters, your father have any moments where you questioned whether you should have known what he was doing this?

VS: You know, it's a question that comes up all the time amongst ourselves. Wondering, was there anything in his attitude that could have clued us in. Any way that he spoke to us or whatever would clus us into what he was doing. The person we saw on the stand is not the person we saw who was working for us. The person who we had working for us was a charming individual, a very co-operative team player. No indication that he was doing this, you know, for that period of time. And then when this all happened, I remember that day in the closing, I was angry, I was upset, I was shocked. I still didn’t even know what actually he had done, you know what was he doing. But I knew he was doing something not correct.

HM: I want to go to the day the jury returned to the verdict, after all of these months. All the tension, all the things your family had been going through. What actually happened that day?

VS: June 2^nd, when the jury…oh boy… I think everything is a blur of that day. I do remember that my father was not present. He was out taking a continuing education class. And he didn't, he had to make his way over, so that took time, and the judge didn't want to waste anybody else's time. So we actually had to hear all of it that day. The “not guilty, the not guilty, how say you? Not guilty, not guilty.” And the judge told us not to have any emotional reaction. And I told my mother, you can't make any sound or show any emotion. But she started, you know, sniffling as they were saying “not guilty.”

HM: And after the fact she was still afraid to speak because she was worried she would ruin things for you.

VS: I seem to remember, our court reporter was crying. Even her attorney cried. And then my dad came in, after the four ladies said “not guilty on 80 counts.” Then the clerk has to repeat it, and that's when he came in, to make sure that that is what, in fact, their verdict was. So I remember that.

HM: Can you just describe the emotions of the moment. The actual feeling that went through you when you started hearing those verdicts.

VS: I don't even know how to describe it. It's almost numbing when you hear this, because it's a verdict that you know is correct and you know you're not guilty for such a long time, but you have other people now who have heard the case, and now are agreeing with you. And it's such a relief. But at the same time there's still a lot of anger, residual anger, that this has happened, and why, and what we must do to prevent this from happening again. Not just us, but other people in the community, in this country’s criminal justice system you know really needs reform in that respect, because we're not the only one who is been wrongfully accused of a crime.

HM: The film premiered yesterday at TIFF. What did you make of the response? How did it go?

SJ: Oh it was OK. [Sound: laughter] It was fantastic. It was really great. I mean it was a really beautiful premiere. I think that theater seats 700 people. I think every seat was full. And you know the movie has a lot of humor in it. It's something that may not be clear from our conversation, but there's a there's a lot of humor in the movie. And it comes from bearing witness to this very entertaining passionate family throughout. And of course mom gets off a few zingers throughout the movie without question. So the audience was with the movie the whole way, and then at the end when we brought up the Sung family, you know there was a sustained standing ovation. You know I've been to a lot of film festivals over the year with films, and standing ovations often happen when subjects come up at the end of films. It's an audience's way of thanking them for what they've been through or what they've done. This one was different. It went on and on and on. It was not the sort of you know rote stand for a minute and then sit down and do the Q&A. They stood and clapped and clapped. We had to actually quiet them down so that we could get to the Q&A. So it was it was quite a beautiful thing. And especially to see their reaction to the Sungs as a family and what they had been through and come through.

HM: Vera, there's a moment near the end of the film while the verdict hasn't happened yet. Your mother is speaking through speaker phone from home, urging you to get your father fed dinner and send him home. She says through the phone to him “You're old.” He never looks old in the film. He looks much younger than his age. He seems so strong and so steady. But I am wondering about the effect you think this might have had, this whole experience, on him and on all of you emotionally and physically.

VS: Yes I think my father has always... I've watched him and admired him obviously. That's not, you know it's pretty obvious, but that I do hold my father in such high regard. But I asked him, quite the same question and you asked me. I wanted to know you know, did you have any concerns, and how come you were able to act very calm? And he told me that he knows inside, he knows the truth. And he knows that he's not done anything wrong. And when you have that faith, that's what carries you through something as stressful as this, as painful as this. Of course I think we were watching the film, and we're looking at ourselves, and it's also another interesting thing to look at yourself, you know in the past going through all of this. And people were commenting that oh you look better now. So I have a feeling this stress does wear on you physically in terms of how you look. You know all of that. And emotionally speaking, what doesn't like you just makes you stronger.

HM: What did you take from that crowd yesterday at TIFF? I get emotional when I think about it, Steve. I really do. It's hard for me to talk about it, but I just feel so grateful.

HM: I'm very grateful just to meet you both. It was a really wonderful film. I appreciated it very much. Thanks for coming.

VS: Thank you.

SJ: Thanks for having us.

JD: That was documentary filmmaker Steve James and Vera Sung, director of Abacus Bank. And they were talking about the documentary Abacus: Small Enough to Jail.

Part 3: As It Happened: Four-Legged Episode

As It Happened: Four-Legged Episode

JD: During the holiday season, we're bringing you some of the best stories that we ever ever aired on the program. We will be digging into the As It Happens archives, to bring you some of the best stories from our past – through Encore presentations of As It Happened: The Archive Edition. And now, here's tonight's Encore Presentation of "As It Happened."

[Music: Theme]

JD: Oh hi there. I'm Jeff Douglas and this is As It Happened: The Archive Edition, the show that brings you the very best from the As It Happens archives. This week's theme: all things four-legged. We will speak with a man who got into a legal dispute over his pet donkey so he decided to take his donkey into court.

SOUNDCLIP

GREGORY SHAMOUN: The best evidence of my ass’s behavior is looking at my ass face-to-face.

JD: We’ll interview a woman whose pet cat rose to fame or infamy after stealing more than 30 pairs of her neighbor's underwear.

SOUNDCLIP

SARAH NATHAN: You just go into someone’s backyard, and there you go, it’s like a smorgasbord of underpants.

JD: And, we'll hear about Boris the pig who broke free of his pen for a few days and impregnated every sow on the farm.

SOUNDCLIP

DARREN SHAW: Ironically, all he seems to be doing is bloody sleeping.

As It Happened: The Archive Edition. Radio that's not sure Boris considered all the re-porc-cussions.

[Music]

Loud Donkey

Guest: Gregory Shamoun

Buddy is a good friend. Buddy is also a donkey and he lives on Gregory Shamoun’s property in Dallas. In 2007, one of Mr. Shamoun’s neighbors complained that Buddy was too loud and messy. And because of that, he took Mr. Shamoun to court. And so Mr. Shamoun took Buddy to court. He spoke with Carol in April of 2007.

SOUNDCLIP

CAROL OFF: Mr. Shamoun, how did you come to bring your donkey to court?

GREGORY SHAMOUN: My neighbor was contending that Buddy was a nuisance in the neighborhood and causing him to not be able to use his luscious estate. And so instead of introducing pictures of Buddy, I thought maybe the best evidence would be Buddy to show up in front of the jury so they could judge him face to face.

CO: Buddy is of course the name of your donkey.

GS: Buddy is my ass. That's correct.

CO: Can you describe your ass for us please?

GS: My ass is about 300 pounds. It's three and a half feet tall. My ass is kind of furry and very well trained, very well groomed, and he's housebroken.

CO: And so was he court broken? Was he fairly well behaved in court?

GS: He was a gem. He was just perfect. Hey was one of the best witnesses I've ever had in 18 years as a lawyer.

CO: Now what was the point of bringing him in?

GS: The best evidence of my ass his behavior is looking at my ass face-to-face. I mean, if they're going to talk about my ass, don't you think maybe they ought to be able to see it as opposed to seeing pictures of my ass?

CO: So did the jury get a pretty good look at it?

GS: All six jurors got a face to face picture of my ass right in the courtroom. We did my ranch hand, you know, walked him around the jury box, and gave them an opportunity to pat my ass or talk to my ass and. And then after they observed, then my ass went back home.

CO: And how did the jury deliberate? Did they decide, did they rule on this?

GS: The jury, while they were in deliberations, I ended up buying part of my neighbor's backyard.

CO: So there really is no ass in this story.

GS: Well, I may be the only ass to this story but as I told my wife, you knew that when you married me.

CO: Now I understand that you do a very good impression of Buddy.

GS: I can. Do you all want to hear him?

CO: I'd love to.

[Sound: honking and whistling sound effect by Gregory Shamoun]

GS: Well, that's Buddy.

[Sound: Carol Off’s laughter]

JD: Gregory Shamoun is a lawyer in Dallas. He spoke with my regular co-host Carol Off in 2007.

[Music]

JD: Coming up later on As It Happened: The Archive Edition, we will hear from the farmer who owns Boris the pig. In 2011, Boris broke through the gate of his pen and managed to impregnate every single sow in sight, sowing more than 100 piglets. Boris the lusty pig. Still ahead on the four-legged episode of As It Happened.

Speaking Cat

Guest: Alexandra Sellers

JD: Cats are not great communicators. I mean yes, they are great at getting your attention. By miaowing at you or tapping you on the shoulder or the face, the eye, over and over again. Usually at 5 a.m. on a Sunday morning until you drag yourself out of bed and you ask what, what do you want? And therein, friends lies the problem, because once you get up, the cat just sits and stares at you. They got you out of your nice warm bed, but they can't tell you why. Thankfully Alexandra Sellers can help with that. She's the author of a book called Spoken Cat in which she decodes the language of cats. She spoke with former As It Happens host Michael Enright in 1997.

SOUNDCLIP

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: Cats don't talk. Except you say they do, right?

ALEXANDRA SELLERS: That's right. I say they do.

ME: And you can understand what they're saying?

AS: Well sure. I think a lot of people can understand what they're saying.

ME: How did you learn to interpret what they were saying?

AS: I think I did it very much the way anybody does when they go somewhere where they have no interpreter. For example the Jesuits when they went out to the Hurons. You know you point at something and you say it and your language, and then if you're lucky, they'll say it in their language.

ME: And is that what you did? You got the cat to say things?

AS: Well how else how else could you write down a language?

ME: Exactly. I’ve no idea.

AS: Exactly.

ME: Can you give us some examples here of what a cat can say or will say and?

AS: Yeah… will say is the more relevant thing. Well what would you what would you like to say to your cat? Do you have a cat, Michael?

ME: Why not anymore. No I used to have… and he used to lie on the stove. I was trying to cook so I'd take it off the stove.

AS: Yeah yeah.

ME: Now how, what would the cat say or what–

AS: The cat might well say “meh” to that, which is cut out.

ME: Meh?

AS: Yeah. Meh.

ME: Uh huh.

AS: “Meh” just means stop doing something. The non-cat should stop performing some activity which is irritating to the cat. That's what that really translates as.

ME: I see. So if I… if I want the cat to stop something I would say “meh.”

AS: Ah no no no no. You can't give an order to a cat in cat, any more than you can in English. You know in English, they just don't hear an order.

ME: They ignore you anyway.

AS: Yeah exactly. In cat, you know, it's a little more dangerous. It's grammatically very very unsound and cats don't like, you know, grammatically unsound expressions. So they, anything could happen.

ME: Any favorite expressions you have that you might share with us?

AS: Any favorite expressions for talking to a cat.

ME: Yeah.

AS: Well I mean one of the most significant… you know, you should always speak to any target population, you know in the language and what they most want to hear, I reckon. I mean a cat will always love to hear the word for example “Mow mrow” which means “Are you hungry?” You know, no cat is likely to turn that one down.

ME: Right.

AS: Right?

ME: And it just keep it to me again?

AS: Mow Mrow.

ME: I see. What else?

AS: Well you’ll just have to give me some idea what you'd like to hear.

ME: Could you give us a sense of cat language?

AS: Well that was a sentence. Let me give you another one. Mow row row. That's another one cats like to hear.

ME: What is that?

AS: You're pretty.

ME: Oh that's nice.

AS: Yeah.

ME: Does it take long to become fluent in cat?

AS: Oh I don't think so. This is a fairly simplified text. It's really quite simple. It's sort of it's almost like pidgin English. You know, it's quite a simplified version of the actual cat language, and people should be able to... I mean, as with any language it depends on their memory. You know I would say, give it a good three months, and you're away with the best of them got it. But this would be limited conversations. You can start discussing Nietzsche after three months.

ME: Oh I see.

AS: You'd be saying “tuna or cream?” or “what did you do with the canary?” But that would be about the limit.

ME: The cat would never admit what he did with the canary anyway.

AS: It depends on the cat, I guess. You know, this doesn't change cat's nature.

ME: Ms. Sellers, thanks very much for talking to us tonight. Good to have you with us. You're very welcome.

AS: Thanks. Bye.

JD: Alexandra Sellers is the author of Spoken Cat. She spoke with former As It Happens host Michael Enright in 1997.

[Music]

Sign Language Dog

Guest: George Lombardi

JD: Zeus isn't quite a God among dogs, but his story is pretty phenomenal. Zeus is a wiener dog and he was born deaf, and because of that his breeder deemed him useless and dumped him at an animal shelter where his inability to hear made Zeus difficult to adopt. But in a stroke of luck, Zeus was accepted into a puppy training program at a correctional center in Missouri. Fittingly, the correctional center is in a town named Licking. The puppies for parole program pairs rescue dogs with prison inmates who then train the dogs to make them more adoptable. In Zeus's case, that meant teaching him sign language. George Lombardi is the director of the Department of Corrections in Missouri. He spoke with Carol in August of 2011.

SOUNDCLIP

CAROL OFF: Mr. Lombardi, how difficult is it to train a dog with sign language?

GEORGE LOMBARDI: Some of the inmates who are part of the training group at the prison in Licking, Missouri approached a few of the Deaf inmates we had at that facility to learn how to teach sign, and they did that, and then the handlers taught the dogs Zeus some of the basic commands of sit, stay, calm etc..

CO: Now how is it that Zeus ended up there? Can you tell us a bit about the program that allowed for the inmates to be teaching that dog?

GL: Sure. About nine years ago, I was approached by a group out of St. Louis that trains dogs for the disabled to see if we would take some of those dogs and have them trained by our female inmates in one of our two female prisons. I agreed to that and it turned out to be a really excellent program, so I decided that I would expand that to all the male facilities that I could. And back in February of this past year, we went ahead and opened up the first prison here in Jefferson City, and what started as a few dogs from a shelter has now expanded to 12 prisons. And they are working with shelters and humane societies around the state to take the very difficult kinds of dogs that are not being adopted. Some of them are strays, some of them are dogs that have been abused et cetera, that are very very difficult to be adopted. And our inmates are training them to become adoptable and to be more socialized because they're with them 24/7. Thus far, we've got a figure as of today, we've adopted out 184 dogs that have been trained in that manner.

CO: Let's just go back to Zeus, because I guess when you have difficult dogs to be trained, it's difficult for a dog that has no hearing. So was there any discussion, about maybe this dog is beyond our abilities here.

GL: You know, not at all. The shelters have now turned to our inmates as a source to take the most difficult cases. And so no, nobody ever hesitated about it. It took the guys a little while to get dog's attention. They didn't know how to do that. And then they found out that if they stopped on the floor, the vibrations would get the attention of Zeus. And that enabled them then to teach them all the different signs and so forth.

CO: How many commands can Zeus follow in sign language?

GL: I think there's about eight or nine now and then you know the further story about Zeus, that the inmates actually paid the adoption fees, and gave the dog to the Missouri School for the Deaf. And the kids there have actually taught Zeus additional signs.

CO: Now this particular institution in Licking, aptly named Licking, is a maximum security prison.

GL: Right. It's called the South Central Correctional Center. Actually that's the actual name. It is maximum security.

CO: It's obvious what the benefit for the dogs is. What's the benefit for the inmates?

GL: Well there's a variety of benefits, way beyond my expectations frankly. I had hoped that bringing dogs into the facility, having been a dog owner myself, that it would impact the environment of the prison. And it has. First of all, for the inmates that are doing the training, and there are many inmates that are involved in it. It really has made a difference in their attitude and their… you know, one of the things about being in a prison is that you can't really show emotion much to your fellow offenders. And yet, here is a creature that you can show love and affection to. And for some of these guys have been incarcerated for 20 years or more, it's the first time they've get to display that kind of emotion and then they receive the unconditional love back from the dog. And it really affects their outlook. It’s really changed behavior, it's changed their emotional makeup. And the thing is that that has just simply migrated to the dormitory, and into the entire prison and has affected the staff as well. As I've mentioned so many of the staff of adopted dogs. It's helped the relationships between the offenders and the staff, and just overall effect to the positive atmosphere of the culture at the prison.

CO: Given all that, and how emotional that connection is, is it difficult for the inmates to give the dogs up?

GL: It is. That is the one drawback, but they know up front that they're there as caretakers and teachers. Does it make it easier? No it's very hard for them to give up their dog. But the thing about it is, if they do well, then they get another dog

CO: It’s a very inspiring story, Mr. Lombardi. Thank you.

GL: You're welcome.

CO: Bye bye.

GL: Bye.

JD: From August 2011 that was my regular co-host Carol off in conversation with George Lombardi the director of the Department of Corrections in Missouri. And Zeus’ story does not end there. Oh no. The inmates who train Zeus raised his adoption fee among themselves and then they donated Zeus to the Missouri School for the Deaf where the wiener dog is now known by the name Sparky.

[Music]

Quote Unquote: Lost Pig

JD: At first it must have seemed like serendipity, a chance to make a big difference in someone's life with minimum effort. And then, once the animal was actually in the back of a police car, the implications began to dawn on Officer Jeremy Huffman. In the summer of 2013, police in Grand Rapids Michigan received a report of a lost 6 month old pet pig named Ramon. Ramon had wandered off, and while Officer Huffman was wondering if that was a joke, Ramon just appeared next to his car. And so Officer Hoffman bundled the pet into his backseat and drove him home. The Grand Rapids Police Department knows what you might be thinking. Speaking to a local television station, Lieutenant Michael Croft reflected on the pigs ride home in a police car. He said “The irony there is not lost upon us.”

Ferret World Record Keeper

Guest: John Bennett

JD: It is a world record. You probably didn't know existed. And even when you do know it exists, you still will not know why. In February of 1977, former As It Happens host Barbara Frum spoke with John Bennett. Mr. Bennett was the newly crowned world record holder for keeping two live ferrets down his pants. He spoke with Barbara from his home in Littlebourne, Kent, Great Britain.

SOUNDCLIP

BARBARA FRUM: What gave you the idea of going after this title?

JOHN BENNETT: Well I was dared by my friends, and they all laid bets on it, and I thought well, shall I give it a go?

BF: Can you tell us the contest, the way was lined up? You had two ferrets.

JB: Yes two ferrets, a male and a female. And I had to keep them in my trousers with their knees tied up about right in the middle, and I had to keep them down there for over four hours to break the record. They had to be witnessed by two independent people.

BF: Wat did it feel like?

JB: Very ticklish. They’re furry. They’re like a cat.

BF: Were their teeth sharp?

JB: Very. Their claws were also very sharp.

BF: You only beat the last record by 12 minutes if you were doing so well why didn't you establish a longer record and maybe one tougher to beat?

JB: Yeah. Well, the ferrets had difficulty breathing. And we cut a few times air holes in the trousers but it didn’t make any difference. They were panting and gasping. So I thought it would be best to take them out before I did them any damage.

BF: Are you allowed to wear anything to protect you inside your pants?

JB: Nothing at all.

BF: Nothing at all. Why not?

JB: Well it's supposed to be cheating. You know, I’d say, the first person that done it did it like this so it’s gone on since.

BF: How big were the ferrets?

JB: Well one was just about a foot long and the other one is just a third of the size.

BF: I'm surprised I'd be in a room in your pants to move around.

JB: Yeah. I borrowed a pair of army trousers. And they’re really big. And they had a big belt to take them in.

BF: Did you do something to distract yourself so you wouldn't feel the movement?

JB: Well I played chess actually with a friend of mine. Just [unintelligible] and it's very boring.

BF: It's boring to have ferrets in your pants?

JB: Yeah people poking fun at me all night. Take the mind off it.

BF: When they get out of breath, do they get kind of sleepy and drowsy? They could get angry, couldn't they?

JB: Yeah they were getting very angry, scratching and chewing the pants as well.

BF: How did the one cross to the other side?

JB: He came up one leg and went across the middle and then to the other one, then the back.

BF: Around the back.

JB: Yeah.

BF: That was polite of him. Did you make sure they were well-fed before they went in the pants?

JB: Oh yes. I fed them a couple of days before hand, and give them a little extra each day.

BF: Well Mr. Bennett we congratulate you.

JB: Thanks very much.

JD: Former As It Happens host Barbara Frum, speaking with John Bennett. He was in Kent, England.

[Music]

Naturalists Club

And now, from 1979, this is former As It Happens host Alan Maitland.

SOUNDCLIP

ALAN MAITLAND: As It Happens Bulletin. [Sound: beeping]
Members of the Wrekin Naturalists Club in Shropshire England got a surprise yesterday when they started to prepare their camp for the summer's nude sunbathing extravaganzas. They discover that herds of rabbits had munched their way through the carefully planted trees, depriving them of much needed protection from the public’s prying eyes.
Last night, members of the club were seen to be desperately planting new shrubbery fully clothed. As it Happens, Bulletin.

JD: From 1979, that was late As It Happens host, Al Maitland.

[Music]

Boris the pig

“That'll do pig. That'll do.” No seriously pig, knock it off. When Boris the pig broke free from his pen, he gave his owner Darren Shaw a lot of surprises. More than 100 of them to be precise. Turns out that Boris is a bit of a charmer and while he was out he managed to father dozens and dozens of piglets.
In July of 2011, As It Happens guest host Peter Armstrong spoke with Darren Shaw. He was on his farm in Tutbury, England.

SOUNDCLIP

PETER ARMSTRONG: Mr. Shaw, just how many sows did Boris impregnate?

DARREN SHAW: We actually own 14 breeding sows, and he managed do the whole 14. He's a very amorous boar.

PA: Are you as surprised by this as the rest of us?

DS: Yes extremely surprised. I mean obviously we know he got out of his pen, he actually broke the gate down in sometime in April it was. And obviously, I don’t know if you’re aware, it’s 112 days gestation period for a sow, and we've had these 12 sows give birth in in a matter of eight days. So he managed to get to them all in about less than a week.

PA: That's a lot of work.

DS: That's a lot of work. Yeah.

PA: When you noticed that the gate had been knocked down and that he had gotten out, did you know what Boris was up to?

DS: Well obviously we saw him but we didn't expect he’d got around all 14 of them.

PA: You got to get yourself a better gate.

DS: Well a bigger gate and a bigger lock I guess yeah.

PA: Now you've had the male up to the farm to see Boris and tell the story. Have you had a lot of attention in this?

DS: Yes very much so. He started off in our local, in just in our local paper, and then the next day, I got the local, the national papers, it was in the Mail, it was in the national paper. Sky Television phoned me up. Our local central television station, they came out yesterday and did an article on it. It’s just gone absolutely nuts.

PS: And how's Boris coping with all this attention?

DS: Well ironically, all he seems to be doing is bloody sleeping.

PS: He’s done his work.

DS: Yeah. I’ve done my time. So it just takes taking only the stride, I guess.

PS: Well, one big, very big, happy family.

DS: Yes very much so.

PS: Well thank you very much for sharing the story with us.

DS: You're more than welcome. Thank you.

PA: Have a great day.

DS: Bye bye mate.

PA: Bye.

JD: Darren Shaw is a farmer in Tutbrury, England. He spoke with As It Happens guest host Peter Armstrong in 2011.

Cat underwear thief

Guest: Sarah Nathan

JD: She is one of New Zealand's greatest cat burglars. But she does have an advantage in that she is an actual ca. In March of 2016, Bridget the cat was outed for having dragged home dozens of pairs of men's undergarments. Bridget seems to have a fondness for patterned boxer briefs. She also likes socks, and it was quite a task for her human to try to track down the owners of all the unmentionables. Carol discussed the quest with Bridget's keeper Sarah Nathan.

SOUNDCLIP

CAROL OFF: Sarah, how many pairs of underpants has Bridget brought home?

SARAH NATHAN: She has bought home close to probably 30 pieces of underpants, maybe more. I sort of stopped keeping them originally. And at least 100 socks.

CO: When did you start to notice that she was doing this?

SN: Well she's done it before. We moved house about a year ago, and the last house she brought home all sorts of things. But this time, it's just one particular kind of men's underwear, and you can't not notice it when a pair of stripy men’s underpants arrives in your hallway when you're living in an all girl’s house.

CO: So it's always men's underwear?

SN: It is. It has been for the last two three months. Yep. I'm pretty sure all the underwear is coming from the same source.

CO: So somebody is missing 30 pairs of underpants.

SN: Yeah and they happened to come forward. I'd actually put a flyer in my street, thinking you know clearly I'm going to get a phone call that night from someone saying oh my goodness thank you. That's when my underpants are going. But nothing, nothing. So I put it on Facebook and then it went crazy.

CO: Crazy but still no one claiming their underpants.

SN: No. We’ve got a clue though. In the first kind of 24 hours, it went a bit nuts on the Internet. It was on Reddit and we were reading the thread underneath it which was highly entertaining, and someone said Hey I live on O’Neil Street, which is the street kind of a block away from us. And those are my socks. And then he posted a photograph on his feed, with the odd sock of the sock that was in my photo. And we now just have to work out where on the street this guy is.

CO: How does a cat get somebody’s underwear?

SN: Well, I think what's happening is people… because this happened when she was stealing in our last house. We found out that people she was dealing with… she'd find someone who has one of those… that had one of those outdoor clothes ranks, not hanging on a line. And actually this is another thing maybe. Actually I think you've just hit something there. Why do people think this is so crazy? But I think maybe in America North America, Canada, people use clothes dryers a lot.

SN: Well in New Zealand we have them but we don't use them very often. We tend to dry all of our clothes outdoors. So it's easy pickings. You just go into someone's backyard and it's like a smorgasbord of underpants.

CO: Sarah, it's great to talk to you. Thanks.

SN: Pleasure.

CO: Bye bye

SN: Bye bye.

From March of 2016. That was Carol speaking with Sara Nathan. Her cat, Bridget, stole men's underpants from her neighborhood in Hamilton, New Zealand. And if you would like to see a photograph of Bridget’s undie haul, visit our website cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

JD: That is it for this Encore presentation of As It Happened: The Archive Edition. You can also find all the episodes on our website cbc.ca/aih. Click on ‘As It Happened’ under the Features tab. Listen again or share them. Our thanks, a very special thanks to Keith Hart and the team at CBC Radio Archives. To our writer, Chris Howden, for help with the words. And of course, to our technician, Reynold Gonsalves. As It Happened: The Archive Edition, is produced by Laurie Allan. I'm Jeff Douglas, have a good night.

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