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The AIH Transcript for February 21, 2017

Hosts: Helen Mann and Jeff Douglas

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

HELEN MANN: Hello, I'm Helen Mann.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening. I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight:

HM: Inspiration in desperation. After a teenage boy overdoses in his garage, an Ontario father goes public about his own family's struggles with opioid addiction.

JD: When it comes to lost works of literature, Walt Whitman really does contain multitudes. A Texas grad student discovers a forgotten novel by the great American poet.

HM: Line of Fire. In 2010, a U.S. agent fired across the border and killed a Mexican teenager. And while geography has so far kept the shooter from facing justice, the victim's parents are still fighting.

JD: A sea of tears. The bodies of more than 70 migrants are discovered on a beach in Libya. And the size of the destroyed boat that washed up suggests dozens more may have died as well.

HM: He gave us the slip and now he's disappearing. The chief fortune writer at New York's Wonton Food won't be stuffing our cookies anymore. so we'll speak with the man who will take over serving his life sentences.

JD: And… putting the “why” in Hawaiian. After the president of Iceland speaks out about a certain topping, we will inflame diplomatic tensions by putting his criticism to the Canadian who first put pineapple on pizza. As It Happens the Tuesday edition, radio that assumes negotiations will be fruitless.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Opioid dad, SCOTUS: border agent shooting, Hawaiian pizza inventor

Opioid dad

Guest: Sean O’Leary

JD: The year was about to change. And Sean O'Leary's life would change with it. This past New Year's Eve, he found a 17-year-old boy, a teenager who knew his daughter, lying unconscious in his garage. The boy had suffered an opioid overdose. Paramedics were able to bring the teenager back to life, but for Mr. O'Leary that disturbing experience was the final straw. His family had been trying to combat the opioid addiction of his own teenage daughter, Paige, for years. And so on the weekend, he wrote an open letter on Facebook revealing their struggles in the hopes of raising awareness about teen opioid addiction and reaching out to others in his community. We reached Sean O'Leary in Kanata, near Ottawa.

HM: Mr. O'Leary, as someone who has been living day to day with the effects of opioid addiction how did it feel for you to sit down and write this letter?

SEAN O’LEARY: Well, I had tears when I wrote the letter at times and it was tough, but it had to be done. And as a matter of fact, in the end I made my wife look it over and I made her press send.

HM: What have you heard from people?

SO: Well, I mean it started off with mostly Kanata parents reaching out, whose children are addicted to opioids. But I've heard from across the country people who've shared a lot of their stories of children that have gotten better and are successful in life. And I've also heard some sad stories of people whose children have died and some people whose father had died from this problem.

HM: You write of an incident this past New Year's Eve, when you found the body of a teenage boy lying in your garage. Can you take us back and describe what happened?

SO: My wife and I were with our 13-year-old daughter and our 10-year-old son. We went to a movie and then we were going out for dinner and Paige phoned me and said that where they were supposed to party that night. The mother would let them and could they come to our house? And I didn't really want them there because I know what they do. But it was New Year's Eve, so I said OK and told Page she could have seven friends over. And I raced home and I got home seconds after some of them had arrived. And one of the boys in the car on the way over had overdosed or died and they had pulled him out of the car and laid him on my garage floor. And I just kind of like in shock when I saw him because he looked dead and I jumped out and one of the girls, who does not do drugs, had called 911. And the operator was on, I started performing CPR and I didn't think he was coming back. Then I kept doing it after about 50, he Kind of gurgled and we got a bit of breathing. Rolled them on the side, he stopped again. No heartbeat and we started CPR again then we could hear the sirens and paramedics got there, they came rushing in. They give him a shot of Naloxone and boom! Back to life.

HM: What happened to him do you know?

SO: He's actually in treatment right now. But that kid has overdosed or died three times that are verifiable. And I've heard through other kids seven times.

HM: Paige, your daughter, is 16-years-old. How long has she been struggling with addiction?

SO: It all started at the beginning of grade 9, so two years. It started with pot and it moves on and I wouldn't be talking right now if the drugs all stayed the same. Because parents have struggled with addiction — kids being addicted — it's been going on in our society for generations. But what happened starting December 31st is I started realizing all of these children were dying also. And never in the past have our children been dying. Like a girl who passed away last weekend, she was 14-years-old. She never got the opportunity to realize she was an addict and he went to try to recover.

HM: What impact has pages addiction had on you emotionally?

SO: you’re a father, you just do what you have to do. We have a counsellor, She actually comes to my wife and I’s store before we open once a week and we talk to her and we try to make sure emotionally and mentally that we stay stable. And we have a thriving 13-year-old girl and a thriving 10-year-old boy. And you have to make their lives as normal as possible. You know I hear stories of 20 years ago and 10 years ago and addictions to being there. But as I said, this is the first time where it's just killing them indiscriminately like Russian roulette. The opioid itself, the addiction is so strong that they quit and then they do it again. There is nowhere in this city for you to take your kid to withdraw and detox off those opioids. There's a waiting list. You know I had my daughter, Paige, on January 22^nd; I grabbed her basically off the street at mall. She'd been doing these drugs for three days. She was strung-out. I got her home; I found some of the drugs on her. She got some by me, she got in her bedroom snorted five crushed up perks her friend said you have to do something. Paige has just done this. I called 911, paramedics get to my house. They find two heart monitor stickers on my daughter already because that was her second time in an ambulance that day. They won't tell me why the first time because she's 16 and this privacy rules. We’d go to [indiscernible] and the poor paramedic has a look at me and say sorry Sean, all the detox beds are full. There's nothing they can do for you. You're on your own.

HM: Who are you appealing to for help then? What do you want to see?

SO: Well, I have two goals in all this. Number one is us as parents of the addicted kids, a: have to know each other. And so I'm starting a website or Facebook where it's just parents of addicts in our community can communicate to each other. Because these kids, they do everything in their power to make sure that I don't know the parents of other kids that they're doing drugs with. It's all the same and then by happenstance, if we run into each other these parents and I, like we're both so ashamed of it we hardly look each other in the eye.

HM: So is that the point of your letter to kind of open that conversation?

SO: Yes. The initial part of my letter was I was hoping to get 10 to 15 families from Kanata with kids that are addicts to meet together. So we know each other because if there’s 15 families watching over for my daughter, it's a lot better than just me. Because right now every single one of us are losing the battle and we fight it on our own.

HM: How is Paige doing today? How's she doing now?

SO: Today she's good. But like all like all of us parents, we put up with the fact that invariably they all relapse. What we're seeing with these blue counterfeit Percocet’s is I don't know one teenager yet in Kanata that has kicked them and stayed off them. I was telling people when I started this with my first call on Friday and Saturday that my story was I knew one teenager quit Perks and stayed off them. And I know the kid. And yesterday afternoon I got an e-mail from his mother. And you know her son had been off them since January 1st and had just relapsed this weekend. I thought oh my God, he was the one kid that I know through my daughter. And he's one of the teenagers that I talked to, to find out what's going on and he had just relapsed.

HM: Let me ask what does Paige think of your letter?

SO: On a selfish note on all this. It's been really good to Paige and some of her friends have gotten right into it because they want to help each other. The kids don't want to die. As her dad, that’s why I wrote the letters. I don't want her to die. As a community, we can save a bunch of kids. My hope is that my daughter is in that bunch because by myself, I have done everything a man can do in this country. My wife runs the store while I have been out chasing around looking for my daughter. I've spent hundreds of hours, thousands of dollars and so my only hope is that the community helps us save a bunch of kids and maybe my daughter will be one of the ones that decides to recover and live a good life.

HM: Mr. O'Leary, thank you for being so open with us about what you and Paige and your family are going through. We appreciate it.

SO: You're welcome.

JD: Sean O'Leary's daughter, Paige, is struggling with opioid addiction. We reached Mr. O'Leary in Kanata, Ontario. On Saturday, he wrote an open letter on Facebook to try to connect with others in his community who are dealing with similar addictions among teenagers. And a final note as you heard there, Paige is aware that her dad is talking publicly about their story.

[Music: Sombre piano]

SCOTUS: border agent shooting

Guest: Robert Hilliard

JD: The border patrol agent was standing in Texas. The 15-year-old boy was in Mexico. The agent fired his gun from the U.S. and killed the teenager in another country and that few feet that divided the shooter from the victim, have so far, placed that border agent outside the reach of the law. In the years since Sergio Hernandez died in the summer of 2010, his parents have been seeking justice. American lower courts have said that they cannot sue. They say the U.S. Constitution does not apply to non-Americans outside the country's border. But now their case is before the U.S. Supreme Court. Robert Hilliard is the family's lawyer. We reached him in Washington.

HM: Mr. Hilliard, how did Sergio Hernandez die?

ROBERT HILLIARD: In June of 2010, he and some of his friends in the evening it gone over to the border on their bikes and were playing in an open culvert between the fences of the two countries. And as they were running back from touching the United States fence, a border patrol agent on a bicycle rode up and pulled his gun. Grabbed Sergio's friend by the collar and put him on his knees. Sergio and the rest of his friends ran back to Mexico and Sergio hid behind the pillar of a railroad trestle. As the video shows, there were two shots fired and then the border patrol agent gets on one knee and about six seconds later, fires the kill shot and kills Sergio. Who was standing unarmed and unthreatening in Mexico just peeking out of the pillar of the railroad trestle. And that shot hit him between the eyes and killed him instantly.

HM: And where did this video come from?

RH: The shooting occurred in the shadow of the Paso del Norte Bridge, which is the entry point between Mexico and United States and there were just witnesses on top of the bridge and when they saw it unfolding they just grabbed their cell phone and turned on their cameras.

HM: So Sergio Hernandez was on the Mexican side of the border when he died. If he had been on the American side would that have made a legal difference?

RH: It would have made a 100 per cent legal difference. If Sergio Hernandez had been shot before he was able to scamper back to Mexico, he would have constitutional protections. If the border patrol agent shot Sergio and the kid that was kneeling next to the kid next to him, the kid next to him would have constitutional protections. It's such a ridiculous idea that the Constitution applies for the same behavior of law enforcement. If he never moves his boots from the door of the United States soil and he shoots north, east and west. Constitution applies if he shoots south and the bullet goes across the border, Constitution is flipped off and he has no constitutional constraints.

HM: Now in making its decisions because the case so far has been such that your position is losing. I mean the U.S. Court of Appeals said because Mr. Hernandez was a Mexican on Mexican soil and was not covered by the Constitution. To rule otherwise would have severely adverse consequences for the conduct of American foreign affairs. What do you say to that?

RH: They got it wrong so that the Ninth Circuit in California had the same exact type case cross-border shooting where all of the conduct happened in the United States and they found that there was constitutional protections. There will be no interference with foreign relations because the country in question is Mexico and Mexico has filed papers in this case allowing Sergio's family to come in the United States courts does not interfere with the foreign relations. What Mexico says is what interferes with foreign relations is when U.S. law enforcement shoot across the border and kill our citizens. We're not attacking foreign policy. We're not attacking national security policy in this case. We're going after one rogue border patrol officer, who violated his own policy, which is part of our national policy that says he cannot use deadly force unless there is imminent peril that his life is in danger. The Fifth Circuit completely misunderstood the current state of the Supreme Court law because the Supreme Court law says the Constitution can travel abroad. And they in a recent case said it can go to Cuba and it can protect detainees from treatment. They can bring a habeas corpus in the United States.

HM: So in practical terms what are Sergio's parents hoping they will win from the U.S. Supreme Court?

RH: A chance to go back to court in El Paso and prove their case. We’re not asking the Supreme Court to find the border patrol agent guilty. We're simply asking for a day in court. There's a border patrol agent feels he has defenses that let him go into court and prove it. All that they are asking is that they be allowed to come into the country of the officer who shot their son. The same country where he was standing when he shot their son and to let the courts of that country review his conduct. The Mexican courts are unable to give them any remedy at all because the United States, when the officer was indicted for murder in Mexico, refused to extradite him to Mexico to stand trial.

HM: Why?

RH: They've never made the reason public.

HM: So the agent, Jesus Mesa, what's his situation now?

RH: I read yesterday that his lawyer said he has moved out of El Paso and he doesn't want to know anything about this case. But I know that right after the shooting, he went to work the next day. He was never disciplined and never missed a day of work.

HM: Sergio Hernandez is not the only person who has died at the hands of border patrol agents in similar circumstances. You are also representing the family of another man who was shot in a tree along the border. Can you tell us about that?

RH: Sure. Border patrol have shot across the border ten times killing six Mexican nationals. In San Diego at the Tijuana border, two border patrol agents stopped two Mexican nationals. And one of them climbs up a tree and the border patrol agents begin to beat the other Mexican national. The man in the tree pulls out his phone and tells them in Spanish that he's videotaping them beating his friend and he is going to put it on YouTube. The border patrol pulls out their gun and they shoot him dead in the tree and he falls to the ground and half of his body lands — literally they did a survey — half of his body lands in the United States and the other half lands in Mexico. And the position inside the litigation by the government is the Constitution doesn't apply because more of his body laid outside the country than laid inside the country.

HM: Well given the current political climate in your country. What's at stake in your mind in this case?

RH: Well, we have a current executive who is waving his thumb at the courts and he is the one that is in control of the Border Patrol Agency. And before he even took power, they had shot across the border ten times. You know I think now it's more important than ever to put a check on the executive and say that conduct is going to be reviewable just like your Muslim ban is reviewable. You don't get to decide what the law is.

HM: Mr. Hilliard, thank you very much for taking us through your case. I appreciate it.

RH: You're welcome. Thank you.

HM: OK. Goodbye.

JD: Robert Hilliard is the lawyer representing the parents of Sergio Hernandez. The 15-year-old Mexican boy was shot to death in 2010 by a U.S. border agent. We reached Mr. Hilliard in Washington, D.C. And you can find more on this story on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Ambient]

Hawaiian pizza inventor

Guest: Sam Panopoulos

JD: Last week, the President of Iceland made a bold, wildly irresponsible statement. President Gudni Johannesson said that he was fundamentally opposed to pineapple on pizza. And that is not all. He said that if he could he would ban pineapple as a pizza topping. We demanded an interview with the President. Regrettably he declined, but his office did send us along this statement and I quote, “I like pineapples, just not on pizza. I do not have the power to make laws which forbid people to put pineapple on their pizza. I am glad that I do not hold such power. Presidents should not have unlimited power. I would not want to hold this position if I could pass laws forbidding that which I don't like. I would not want to live in such a country for pizzas, I recommend seafood.” Unquote. Well that's very reasonable, President Johannessen. Except for the part about seafood pizza, which what are you talking about? And, of course, your original opinion about pineapple on pizza. For more detailed rebuttal, we decided to call up the Canadian inventor of Hawaiian pizza. We reached Sam panopoulos in London, Ontario.

HM: Sam Panopoulos, the President of Iceland said he was fundamentally opposed to pineapple on pizza and that if he could, he would ban pineapple on pizza. What do you say to the President of Iceland?

SAM PANOPOULOS: Well, I invented it. That's what I can say. Why, somebody has a patent on it?

HM: Well, he just doesn't like it and he thinks…

SP: when I when I was working on pineapple pizza, he wasn't even born. And there was no patent, no place, nobody owned it. Nobody owns the name or anything like this. How can it be illegal?

HM: Well, I mean he's the President of Iceland. I guess he has you know some power?

SP: He got can have whatever he wants, I don't care.

HM: You haven't got a patent on the pineapple?

SP: No, no. I wish I had.

HM: Yeah because it's kind of a big deal right?

SP: Yeah. Those days when I first come up with it, there was nothing to it. You know what I mean. It was just another piece of bread cooking on the oven.

HM: Now everybody has pineapple on their pizza it seems?

SP: That’s right.

HM: What is it that inspired you to put pineapple on pizza?

SP: That was back in the late ‘50s you know ‘60s. And pizza wasn't even in Canada — nowhere. Pizza was coming in through Detroit, through Windsor and I was in Chatham and that was the third stop.

HM: In Chatham?

SP: Yeah, and I had a restaurant there. We’re doing all the other things and I went down to Windsor a couple of times and visit places. I said let’s try pizza you know. Then we tried to make some pizza and then along the way, threw some pineapples on it and nobody liked it at first. But after that, they went crazy about it. Because those days nobody was mixing sweets and sours and all this, they were interested in plain food.

HM: You were a pioneer.

SP: Anyway, after that it stays. We’d sell pizzas in Chatham and in London for the next 40-45 years.

HM: Do you like pineapple on your pizza?

SP: Yep, yep.

HM: Do you do it all the time?

SP: Yep.

HM: So what was pizza like in the days when you started out?

SP: Well, I don't know everybody says Italian pizza. I've never seen anything like this in Italy when I stopped back in 1954. We're coming over by boat and the boat stopped in Naples and there was a little wagon selling lots of stuff with all the passengers. And one said pizza on it. I went to try one it's one and the guy slices up a big bun, put some sauce in it some, some spaghetti in and that’s all the pizza was then.

HM: You had a spaghetti sandwich?

SP: Yeah that's what it is. This whole thing an American invention you know what I mean. They did it first in Boston and the places around. And Detroit in those days big, a lot of people live there. And guys from Windsor pick up the thing and they started making it there. We visit Windsor and then we see what is going on there. We had a restaurant in Chatham, which is not too far from Windsor. We didn’t know what the hell to do with it. We were putting bacon, peperoni and mushrooms. That was the standard things you put on pizza.

HM: They sound like good things, is that not good enough?

SP: Yeah, yeah, that was good enough, but the pineapple come up over there while we're working on them. It was a kind of pineapples on the shelf.

HM: You just had some around?

SP: We just spread some on top and at first, I had a bite and I like it. I pass it to some customers that didn't like it to begin with, but after a while that they went crazy. Everybody wants it. After that, everybody started putting everything on it. You can put sardines. You can put salmon in it. You can put green peppers, onions, whatever you want today and everybody eats it.

HM: So you agree because the President of Iceland also says the food is good on pizza?

SP: Yeah it is, but after my pineapple.

HM: Your pineapples first. If I want pineapple on my pizza what tastes good with the pineapple? What other toppings should I get with the pineapple?

SP: I like myself pepperoni and pineapple. That's all I eat.

HM: If the President of Iceland got to try a slice of your pineapple pizza. Do you think you might be able to change his mind?

SP: Well I like it. I don't care if it does. He can say whatever he wants. He sells fish over there so he has to put fish on his pizza.

HM: I mean think if they were selling pineapples in Iceland, he might like them better?

SP: He should be. He probably tried already. He just wanted to make a big point out of it.

HM: Do you make any pizza these days?

SP: No, I eat pizzas, but I don’t make them anymore.

HM: Where do you get yours?

SP: I usually get Dr. Oetker or whatever you call them.

HM: The ones you get in the freezer?

SP: Yeah, yeah. They are very nice.

HM: They've got a thin crust.

SP: Yeah, thin crust and some of them have nice soft crust.

HM: So you don't make your own pizza dough at home?

SP: No, no, no I don’t. I got sick and tired making pizzas.

HM: Your pizza days are done.

SP: That's right.

HM: Listen, thank you for talking to us. I really appreciate it.

SP: OK. You’re welcome.

HM: OK. Take care. Bye.

SP: Thank you. Bye.

JD: Sam Panopoulos is the inventor of the Hawaiian pizza. We reached him in London, Ontario. To read more about Hawaiian pizza and the Icelandic President's position on it, we urge you, go to our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

Part 2: Walt Whitman discovery, fortune cookie writer

Walt Whitman discovery

Guest: Zachary Turpin

JD: It isn't every day that someone finds a long lost work by a famous writer. But Texas grad student Zachary Turpin has done more than once. A couple of years ago, he found Walt Whitman's “Manly Health and Training”. You might remember hearing about it here on this program last year when the discovery was announced. “Manly Health and Training” is a guide, in which Walt Whitman provides health tips for men. Tips like eating lots of meat, having a beard. Well more recently, Zachary Turpin discovered another long lost work by the same man. It is called “Life and Adventures of Jack Engle” and was republished online yesterday by the journal Walt Whitman Quarterly Review. We reached Zachary Turpin in Houston.

HM: Zachary Turpin, what is your secret? How are you uncovering all of these works by Walt Whitman?

ZACHARY TURPIN: [Sound: Laughing] there's no secret sauce. Really it's a combination of I suppose obsessive dedication on my part and having a lot of really powerful digital tools at my disposal and really at anyone's disposal. A lot of this is done on public open access digital archives.

HM: And can you take us back to the moment when you realized that you had actually discovered a novel by Walt Whitman? Where were you?

ZT: I can, literary research is rarely as glamorous as you might think. So I was not in some dusty, sun-dappled library or anything. It was the Friday afternoon, my family and I were arriving at my in-laws house and setting up a pack and play and putting down our things. And I received an e-mail from the Library of Congress. I'd been waiting for this e-mail because I suspected that a publication of theirs called The New York Sunday Dispatch and it’s a very rare newspaper. In fact, they had the only issues in the world that I was after. I suspected that that might contain a novella by Walt Whitman, but I didn't really know. So what I needed was a digital image that reflected what I was looking for. And what I was looking for was character names that Walt Whitman had written in a little notebook that he'd kept. A notebook that contained sort of odds and ends, plot ideas for potential short stories or even novels and these aren’t really known to have gone anywhere. But one of those plot names is reflected in a literary notice I’d found in The New York Daily Times in 1852. So what I wanted to see were all these unique names that Whitman had written out. They're kind of unusual: Jack Engle is one, who's the titular character, Wigglesworth, Martha the Quaker, Smith spelled Smytthe. And I knew if I saw those names, we'd be in business. And I open the e-mail and the first thing I see in this image is all of the names: Whitman, Smytthe, Matha the Quaker. And that's when I knew that I was the only person in the world who knew what this was. So it was more than a little surreal.

HM: Now “Life and Adventures of Jack Engle” was published anonymously. You have these notebooks that had these different names in them, but how did you actually prove that this was indeed written by Walt Whitman?

ZT: It's really not as difficult as you might think. So this is an anonymous publication. And in that way it seems as if it would be hard to tend to Walt Whitman. But if you look at the notebook, which is available online by the way, at the Walt Whitman Archive — as are many of his papers. And then you look at this publication, which is now available online at The Walt Whitman Quarterly Review and also has a book published by the University of Iowa Press. It's gorgeous. You can see that there is perfect symmetry the characters match the plot matches even the time in which was published 1862 and the place in which it was published. All match very well to what we know Whitman's publication history. So this is ironclad.

HM: Now what is “Life and Adventures of Jack Engle” actually about?

ZT: It's a little hard to put your finger on, but if you had to give it a name you would probably call it a city mystery novel, a sentimental romance and a sensationalist thriller. It has the things that you would expect from Whitman: nature and city life, adventure and romance and also all the elements of good old fashioned potboiler. You know what they call thrills, chills, spills and kills.

HM: So is it any good?

ZT: It is wild. There is everything in this.

HM: That doesn't tell me it's good.

ZT: I love it. What's great about this book is that you see everything. Not only do you see Whitman working in all sorts of fictional genres that he was familiar with from his decade as a fiction writer. But you also see him working through some of the themes that are ultimately upheld in “Leaves of Grass”. You know there's a great chapter — chapter 19— in which the plot comes to a screeching halt and the main character takes a moment to reflect on life and nature in the universe in Trinity Churchyard in Manhattan and to look at the gravestones there, which are still real and you can read them today. And it's fascinating to see these thoughts with the “Leaves of Grass”, which he was probably writing at exactly the same time.

HM: Right, so there's motifs, the language, the poetry. What's the link?

ZT: What's the link between the two?

HM: Yeah, just in terms of the influence and how you could see how his thoughts were evolving in that kind of style that was reflected in both works.

ZT: Well Ed Folsom, who's sort of the dean of Whitman scholarship in America, I think has called this sort of a peek into Whitman's literary laboratory. So the Walt Whitman of the early 1850s to us today seems like a confident poet. You can probably see him in your mind; he’s bearded, standing like with the one hand on his hip, with his shirt collar open and that's the persona he wanted us all to think of once he became what he wanted to be, which is the American poet. But this is the person who's coming from two decades of journalistic experience and a decade is a short story writer. He's really a hard-bitten ex-journalist, who was scrambling to find a profession and scrambling to find a genre capacious enough to capture all these thoughts he was having. And if you read his manuscripts from that period, he doesn't know what “Leaves of Grass” is going to become at all. He's writing to himself what am I writing? A spiritual novel, a play with thousands of voices? So part of the value of a novella like this is to be reminded that “Leaves of Grass” could easily have become a play or novel.

HM: So do you think there's a lot of other stuff out there so you can make it a hat trick?

ZT: So I would love to make it a hat-trick by the way. I strongly suspect that there's significant evidence to suggest there are more novels out there.

HM: We can only hope that you find them.

ZT: We can! And you know I wouldn't mind a little competition. I think that this may get a lot of people thinking about the idea of doing literary research as a profession not only because it's so enriching and rewarding, but it's a lot of fun.

HM: Well, I really appreciate you telling us about your great find. Thank you.

ZT: Yeah. Thank you for having me.

HM: OK. Bye bye.

ZT: Bye.

JD: Zachary Turpin is a grad student at the University of Houston. The lost Walter Whitman novel that he discovered was republished this week. We reached Mr. Turpin in Houston.

[Music: 1855/ Classical guitar]

Trump on Sweden

JD: Last Saturday, and not for the first time, U.S. President Donald Trump baffled the world. During a rally in Florida, the President said this:

SOUNDCLIP

DONALD TRUMP: You look at what's happening last night in Sweden, Sweden, who would believe this! Sweden, they took in large numbers, they’re problems like they never thought possible.

JD: OK, that was confusing because no one, no one, knew what President Trump meant by quote, “last night in Sweden”. It turned out that the link that he was trying to make between asylum seekers and violent crime in Sweden was based on a report he had seen the night before on Fox News. That report included an interview with Swedish police captain Anders Goranzon. Now Mr. Goranzon says that he did answer questions about organized crime and gang violence, but not about a link between immigration and criminality. Here is part of what the police captain told Radio Sweden:

SOUNDCLIP

ANDERS GORANZON: [Non-English speaking: Finnish]

[Translation]: What went wrong was that our answers were taken out of context he says. The Interview with this journalist was about gang related violence in the suburbs of Stockholm and about the shootings in monomer in Malmo, Gothenburg and Stockholm. And whether the violence has increased and whether the organized crime has spread and become more serious. That was what the interview was about not about immigration and whether it had anything to do with the criminality. Nothing about color of skin or religion, but purely about criminality he says.

AG: [Non-English speaking: Finnish]

[Translation]: I explained to him that in Sweden we don't think along those lines about religion and ethnicity in the same way that I understand is done in the US.

AG: [Non-English speaking: Finnish]

[Translation]: Well no, if we speak about the refugees who came in 2015-2016. There are very few of these people who live in these areas. They live in completely different areas.

AG: [Non-English speaking: Finnish]

[Translation]: We thought it was a joke at first. This has nothing to do with the interview we did. It feels very strange. We are not at all behind this. That was in Fox News he says.

AG: [Non-English speaking: Finnish]

[Translation]: I don't know what to say? He says. This is completely amazing. He must have one of the world's best intelligence services and he's using this as a basis for making judgment about Sweden. I just don't know what to say?

JD: That was Swedish police captain Anders Goranzon speaking with Radio Sweden, obviously with the help of a translator. Mr. Goranzon was interviewed for a report that aired on Fox News last Friday. And that report led to U.S. President Trump's incorrect assertions about asylum seekers and violent crime in Sweden. Last night, in Sweden, something did happen. A riot did break out in a predominantly immigrant suburb of Stockholm. Today, Swedish police continue investigating the reasons behind that disturbance.

[Music: Ambient]

Fortune cookie writer

Guest: James Wong

JD: His work was read by millions of people all over the globe. A few words at a time, but now the chief fortune cookie writer at New York's Wonton Food is putting away his pen. After more than three decades of writing thousands of fortunes a year, Donald Lau says he can no longer keep up the pace. He is passing the torch to a new writer, 43-year-old James Wong. We reached James Wong in New York.

HM: James, it seems like you've got some pretty big shoes to fill. What kind of advice says Donald Lau given you about writing fortunes?

JAMES WONG: We have been talking on and off over the years. And one of the most important was to keep a sense of humor.

HM: And does he display that day to day?

JW: Oh definitely, he is a very funny guy. He has a very dry sense of humor, which is a little bit different from mine, but it works for him.

HM: Donald Lau has been writing fortunes for a really long time. Why is he retiring?

JW: He has been I guess having writer's block. The ideas hasn't been coming to him as easily as they used to be.

HM: Do you have any idea how many fortunes he has written over the years?

JW: Oh, I wouldn't be able to even count that. It's just been too many.

HM: So maybe it's no surprise that he's running out of ideas?

JW: Definitely not a surprise.

HM: How did he become a fortune cookie writer in the first place?

JW: When we first started the company, he was the only person that has proper English. He just kind of fell into the role I guess, also probably because of his sense of humor.

HM: Do you think he enjoyed it?

JW: Oh, he definitely did. He had a great time. He's still having a great time. He still writes occasionally, just not as much as he used to.

HM: Do you think people take these fortunes seriously?

JW: Mostly not, but if maybe 5 out of 100 actually takes it seriously I will be very happy.

HM: So do you keep that in mind? I mean you're careful with what you offer?

JW: Definitely. There are many things that we have to pay attention to, especially in the current political environment. There is a lot of sensitivities that we need to be aware of.

HM: Do fortune cookie writers ever sort of lean into the political?

JW: Donald has on occasion done that. He has his views, but we always try to keep it generic again. Plus we do have a vetting committee. Multiple people read through and approve anything that gets published.

HM: Tell me about your own process, what inspires you?

JW: Biggest inspiration is probably from people around me. When I'm working with my colleagues or when I'm having conversations with loved ones, especially my daughter. I always think about what she is doing and how I can help improve her — improve the way that she thinks. I try to give her advice and when I'm writing fortunes that's what I have in mind most of the time that I have a specific person that I'm writing to.

HM: Are you always writing things down on pieces of paper, notebooks, everywhere so you never forget them?

JW: It's not necessarily a notebook. It could be on anything. So I do have a collection of gum wrappers and napkins and even toilet paper.

HM: You never know where inspiration will strike huh?

JW: Exactly.

HM: Do you have any idea how many of these are going to have to write in a year?

JW: I was told that I should be at least writing a couple thousand a year. I had to say though, I have not been doing that.

HM: That's a lot.

JW: It definitely is a lot. And we produce a lot of cookies — a few million a day. And we definitely don't have a few million fortunes in those cookies. So there have been a lot of repeats and it’s been one of the more common complaints that we have been getting. And so we have been trying to increase the numbers of fortunes that gets published.

HM: I thought it was just me getting the same fortune over and over.

JW: Only if you're that lucky.

HM: Yeah. So do you ever get any complaints? Do people who are unhappy with what the future holds for them?

JW: Well, the more common ones are that our fortunes aren’t predictive enough. People are expecting something like you're going to win the lottery tomorrow or something like that. That's pretty common. And the other one that immediately comes to mind was when a middle-aged couple was having dinner, right before the man was supposed to go off to a business trip and the fortune that he received says romance is in the air on your next trip.

HM: Oh oh.

JW: That definitely was not a good thing. Apparently they were already having troubles with their marriage and the wife blames everything that went wrong with the marriage on us.

HM: You mean the marriage ended after they opened a fortune cookie?

JW: They actually did get divorced afterwards, I found out. And she had a lawyer contact us that definitely was a whole episode about it.

HM: Can you give us a few examples of fortunes you've been working on?

JW: A couple of that that I have been trying to write in the proper way. One of which is based on a on an old Chinese proverb, “The failure is mother to success”. That's the literal translation of it, but I'm not sure I would be able to put that word for word into a fortune.

HM: But the sentiment is there that if you can learn from your failures you might be successful.

JW: Absolutely. That's the meaning of it.

HM: Good luck with this new job. It actually sounds both daunting and a lot of fun.

JW: It definitely is a lot of fun.

HM: All right. Well, I'll say good luck.

JW: Thank you very much.

HM: OK. Bye.

JW: Bye.

JD: James Wong is the new chief fortune cookie writer at Wonton Food. We reached him in New York City. For more on this story, go to www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Classic pop]

Dateline: Not a Michelin restaurant

JD: Dateline: Bourges, France.

[Music: Dateline theme]

JD: The phrase “La Bouche a l’Oreille” means “mouth to ear”. That's the French way of saying word of mouth. “La Bouche a l’Oreille” is also the name of a fancy high end restaurant in a French town by the name of Boutervilliers. It is also the name of a roadside diner in the city of Bourges. Now that's a lot of “bouches” and a lot of “oreilles”, which may be why some very influential “bouches” wound up making the wrong announcement into the “oreilles” of some very excited, very hungry people. Last week, the owner of the roadside diner with that name in Bourges heard something unexpected on the radio. Her small bistro, which only serves lunch, had been awarded one of the greatest honors in the culinary world: a Michelin star. And when I say it was unexpected, I don't mean she could not believe it. I mean she did not believe it. Veronique Jacquet loves her restaurant, but as she told The New York Times quote, I run a small working -class brasserie, nothing to do with a gourmet restaurant.” Meanwhile about 200 kilometers north, the owners of “La Bouche a l’Oreille” in Boutervilliers, we're also baffled. And then the Michelin people called to explain their mistake. They had mixed up the two restaurants and awarded a star to the one that serves lasagna and steak and chips. Not the one that serves herb-encrusted skate wing and boiled calf's head. A Michelin spokesperson said quote, “The most important thing for us is that neither restaurant was negatively affected.” And that's true; both places have been packed with roving gourmets even after the correction was issued. And the owners of the fancy joint have invited the owner of the diner to visit anytime. So obviously both restaurants have a certain star quality even if one is comfort food and the other is haute cuisine. They are clearly both “bouche league”

Part 3: Libya: migrant deaths, Pluto debate

Snow fort collapse

JD: On Saturday, in Lawrencetown, Nova Scotia, three guys were making the best of the winter wonderland by making a snow fort. Steve Bayers was in the fort with his 13 year-old-son Ben, and his son's best friend, Adam Inch. They had carved the fort out of a pile of snow near his garage. All three were inside putting on the finishing touches, when suddenly the fort collapsed. Mr. Bayers, Ben and Adam were trapped. They were unable to move. It was a life or death situation. Earlier today, Steve Bayers told CBC Radio's Norma Lee McLeod what happened after the roof fell in on them.

SOUNDCLIP

STEVE BAYERS: They were laying down, kind of having a break as teenagers do. And I was showing them how to shave it off the interior and kind of make this smooth. You know make it nice and good looking so to speak inside. And we were laughing and carrying on and next thing I know the lights went out and they were a couple of feet away from me screaming and it sounded like they might as well have been a mile away. And I was pinned with my leg twisted up behind me and I just felt like the weight of the world on top of me and I couldn't so much as move my fingertips. That was basically it.

NORMA LEE MCLEOD: Could you breathe?

SB: Yes. You know when it came down to it, there were some smaller pockets at the bought us some time and allowed us to breathe until fortunately we got out.

NLM: But what were you saying to each other? You said it felt like they were not even close to you at all. Could you communicate?

SB: Yes. The words that I heard was my son thought that I jumped on top of him. He was screaming get off me dad, get off me, I can't breathe, this isn't funny anymore and finally he stopped screaming. I said just stay calm. We're in a bad spot. Keep fighting. Keep kicking. Keep breathing.

NLM: When was the first sign that help was on the way?

SB: Well sometime during that was could have been 10 seconds it could have been 10 minutes. I felt somebody tugging on the back of my jacket. You know him saying help, help, I can't move. And the tugging stopped for a second and heard a bark. And then I realized it was my dog. I have a golden retriever, Zeus, and he's a pretty big, strong dog. And he had dug in and started to tug on the back of my jacket. So honestly at that point it gave me a glimmer of hope that I knew if I could get my foot unhooked and get my leg untwisted and get a limb free that I was close enough to the exterior that I could get out and ultimately help the kids and that's pretty well what happened. My neighbor, God love him, he heard my screams and I had a couple of friends here. They come running up the driveway and we started frantically digging and got the kids out.

NLM: What was it like to get Ben and Adam Freed from that snow?

SB: It was just… I don't know words don't describe the elation of knowing that they were OK. It was a pretty emotional afternoon after that, I can tell you that. There was a lot of hugs and a lot of thankfulness so to speak. How are the boys? It's hard to tell. My son has a mild concussion and Adam's a little sore from the amount of weight on him. But you know physically they're OK. You know we keep hammering home with them mentally that you know it's OK to talk about it and they don't need to be tough 13-year-old teenagers and act like it wasn't a big deal that they got to get it out and talk about it.

JD: Steve Bayer of Lawrencetown, Nova Scotia. He was speaking earlier today with CBC Radio host Norma Lee MacLeod. He and his son and his son's buddy survived after their snow fort collapsed on them on Saturday.

[Music: Ambient]

Libya: migrant deaths

Guest: Mohaned Krema

JD: After a record year for deaths along the migrant route from Libya to the shores of southern Italy, this is the latest mass casualty incident. The Libyan Red Crescent has found the bodies of 74 people in the coastal city of Zawiya west of Tripoli. Mohaned Krema is with the Libyan Red Crescent in Zawiya. And that's where we reached him.

HM: Mr. Krema, how did you first learn that bodies were washing up on the shore of Zawiya?

MOHANED KREMAL: The local authorities and the local people are staying there. They contact us and they call us about the bodies.

HM: And based on the condition of the bodies, do you have any idea how long they might have been in the water?

MK: I don't think because the corpses are not dissolving.

HM: So they were they had not been there too long?

MK: Yeah, they haven't been too long. Probably they died from the cold or hunger.

HM: You don't think that they perhaps drowned?

MK: No because the all of them they were in the boat.

HM: All of the bodies then were in the boat at the time when it washed ashore?

MK: Yeah, but there are a few bodies has been drowned in the sea. We couldn't reach them.

HM: Who were the people on the boat? Men, women?

MK: All that we have witnessed are men. Maybe some of them are minors.

HM: male, but some young people as well. You say they were on a boat. What kind of boat was this?

MK: It's not good for sailing. You can't even sail in the lake with it. The floor is a thick used for buildings and rubber.

HM: So rubber and wood. Have you or anyone seen any more bodies on the shore or in the water since then?

MK: Yeah, we have seen bodies, but we couldn't reach the because we didn't get international support or local support by the authorities or the international organizations. Besides that, the shores of the my city, Zawiya, is clif-y and rock-y.

HM: Are any authorities in Libya willing to go out and get those bodies?

MK: They are trying, but they also don't have much equipment, so I don't know. Most of bodies are taken by fishermen. They see it at the bridge and they reported to the authorities about it.

HM: So you have these bodies on this very unstable boat. What do you think about how those people ended up there?

MK: We don't have any info about that. We didn't see anyone, but the locals are saying that there were two survivors. They took them to the hospital and the captain.

HM: Did they say what those survivors said?

MK: No, we are trying to contact the survivors and we're reaching them.

HM: So do you have any idea where these people came from in the first place?

MK: They are from African nationalities.

HM: But that's all you know?

MK: Yeah, they don't have any documents. So we don't know where the nationalities are.

HM: What are you going to do to try to identify these people?

MK: We are with the policeman. We take a DNA sample of each body, we take photos of the place that we have found the bodies and we take photos of the face and any marks on the body if their families want to recognize them. After that we take a sample of their DNA and the case number and the date of death and they place they have found the person that is dead. Two more identities: one is buried with the body and one is on the grave.

HM: So you bury identification with the body and you mark the grave in case someone come?

MK: yeah, just in case.

HM: You say in case. Do you think it's likely people will be able to be identified by their loved ones?

MK: We didn't receive any requests. So we are keeping just our chief in case the situation has been stable in the country and the loved ones who tried to contact them or reach them.

HM: Where will you bury these people?

MK: There are special places to bury the unknown people. Unfortunately in the city there is no place. So the nearest place is then Tripoli is 200 kilometers away. We are trying to make a cemetery for the unknown people to bury them out there. We are doing our best.

HM: Are you having trouble getting the bodies to that burial ground then?

MK: Yeah, we don't have any possibilities. As I said, all we have is one ambulance we are using it to remove bodies. And after that we clean it and use it as ambulance. Unfortunately we don't have any equipment or vehicles to move their bodies with.

HM: Is anyone helping you?

MK: No, we have a request for support from the local authorities and international organization, but no one supported. All the support they bring is the blankets and the body bags.

HM: Given the time of year, Are you expecting more crossings in the coming weeks?

MK: Actually this number is very very strong to this city. Last year, we took out 113 bodies of immigrants, but this year the beginning of the year, we have 75. It is a shocking number.

HM: What impact does this have on you and other people from the Red Crescent dealing with all of this?

MK: We are volunteers. We don't get any payments of this. We love our humanity job. So we are very sad about watching people who are dying each day. We hope that the international organizations and the authorities will help the Red Crescent. Because the Red Crescent is the first place when disaster happens, when anything happens call the Red Crescent.

HM: I'm sorry to hear all that you have to deal with and I thank you very much for talking with us.

MK: Thank you. Thank you for the interesting and the humanity job.

OK Mr. Krema, take care.

MK: Thank you.

HM: Bye bye.

JD: Mohaned Krema is with the Red Crescent in the coastal city of Zawiya, Libya.

[Music: Ambient]

Mulroney on Trump

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau got some encouragement from one of his Conservative predecessors this morning. Brian Mulroney was speaking at a breakfast hosted by the Canadian Council for the Americas. The event was called “New Strategies for a New North America. And Mr. Mulroney had plenty to say. Not only was he one of the architects of the North American Free Trade Agreement, but the former PM was also fresh from a weekend visit with his Palm Beach neighbor, U.S. President Donald Trump. Here is some of what Brian Mulroney had to say:

SOUNDCLIP

BRIAN MULRONEY: You're invited by the President of the United States you go. Access is the currency of success. So the Mexicans made their own decision I can understand the circumstances were a little bizarre at the time, but to understate the case. You say free trade was unpopular. In 1988, when I started off the campaign, my support was really down to members of my immediate family.

[Sound: Laughter]

BM: And I can remember calling my late mother, at the time. And she put me on hold, so it's a tough sell. But Mr. Trudeau went down. It's hard to imagine, if you just step back and look at it, two people with less in common than Donald Trump and Justin Trudeau. But he worked at it. And very well he and his staff and his minister Chrystia Freeland and others. They worked on it and they had what people are saying is a very successful meeting and I can say it too. How do I know that? Because President Trump told me that Saturday night, that Prime Minister Trudeau and he got along well and that there is much in common. And as he said at his press conference with regard to the Canadian position, there is tweaking to do with NAFTA. With regard to Mexico, the situation is somewhat more severe.

JD: That was former Progressive Conservative Prime Minister Brian Mulroney speaking at an event this morning in Toronto.

[Music: Violin]

Dateline: meat pie goalkeeper

JD: Dateline London England.

[Music: Dateline theme]

JD: Oh, we have all said it have we not? Some of us many more times than others: I should have skipped the pie. I myself, said it just last Thursday. Now as a rule, I don't eat until after I've left the studio, but certain producers here… Kate Swoger, see to it that As It Happens snack table is brimming with offerings and on Thursday, our assistant director John McGill, Baby John, came in with his homemade specialty: strawberry rhubarb. I ate half of it and then I did have to do the show from the studio floor. Not my finest hour. Still, it does not match the professional undoing of Wayne Shaw. Wayne Shaw is the now former goalie with the Sutton United Football Club. Former because, last night, as F.A. Cup fifth round match against Arsenal wound down in defeat incidentally for Sutton. Mr. Shaw was captured on the bench eating a meat and potato pie. Now, he has been forced to resign from the team and the Football Association has launched an investigation. And if that seems like a little much. Well, there is more to that meat pie than meets the eye. Mr. Shaw did not simply scarf it down because he was a bit peckish but because there were steaks in it, more precisely steaks in his eating it. We're talking eight to one odds. A bet offered prior to the match on Twitter by the online sports betting site Sun Bet. And although Mr. Shaw did not stand to profit himself from the wager, he did freely disclose he's gone along with it or that he had gone along with it. And he told reporters after the game quote, “a few of the lads said to me earlier on what is going on with the 8 to 1 about eating a pie? I said I don't know. I've eaten nothing all day so I might give it a go later on. I thought I would give them a bit of banter and let's do it.” Unquote. Now I am going to bet that Mr. Shaw wishes he had never put that pie in his mouth in the first place. But especially, especially, as a pro soccer player not as much as he regrets what he put in next: his foot.

[Music: Hip-hop]

Pluto debate

Guest: Kirby Runyon

JD: Poor Pluto, can I just say that? Poor Pluto, it's easy to ignore Pluto sitting way out there in the blackness of space way past Neptune. And if its location is not bad enough, that poor little mass of rock and ice received a further indignity just a few years ago when the International Astronomical Union decided that Pluto wasn't even a planet, but a dwarf. And ever since, Pluto's defenders have rallied. And now, a group of prominent scientists has published a new paper arguing that Pluto's planet status should be restored. Kirby Runyon is a planetary geologist at Johns Hopkins University and a part of the team behind NASA's New Horizons probe, which visited Pluto. We reached Mr. Runyon in Baltimore.

HM: Mr. Runyon, how often do you get asked to stand up and defend Pluto?

KIRBY RUNYON: It happens frequently, but it tends to happen is fairly informal settings, typically at my dance club or at my church.

HM: And what do you tell these people?

KR: I tell them that Pluto is a planet. That what the International Astronomical Union defines as a planet that their definition basically doesn't matter and that as a practicing planetary geologist, I tell them that yeah, Pluto's a planet and so is our moon. Anything round in space that’s smaller than a star is a planet.

HM: It sounds really surprising to hear you say the International Astronomical Union's designation doesn't matter. I think they probably think it does?

KR: I'm sure they do. But you know they're composed of astronomers, people who mainly study stars and galaxies and black holes and that's great. And they're largely a great organization. But when it comes to defining a planet and again, I'm a geologist I'm not an astronomer, but I study planetary geology. It would be like a Portuguese speaker telling Italians what the grammatical rules of Italian should be. There's just a disconnect there.

HM: The Astronomical Union didn't say Pluto was not at all a planet it said it was a dwarf planet. Is that not sort of enough kind of equivocating to appease people who want it to be a planet?

KR: Well if they left it at that, that would be perfect. The problem is that the IAU then goes out of their way to say oh by the way, dwarf planets are not planets, which is grammatical nonsense. And so I’m fine with dwarf planet, but again dwarf planet and the geophysical definition that we use dwarf planets are full-fledged planets.

HM: Why do they think a dwarf planet isn't a planet?

KR: Well, if you enter into the mindset of an astronomer, they're typically interested with the extrinsic properties. That is the orbit and how the gravity of the world affects other things in space. You know as a geologist, I'm more interested in the intrinsic properties. You know what’s the mass? How are things arranged in the interior of the planet and on the exterior of the surface of the planet? And those intrinsic properties I think are much more defining in term for the sake of planet hood as opposed to where you're orbiting.

HM: Did you always take this view? I mean how did you react when the ruling was first made back in 2006?

KR: I was disappointed, but you know part of me as this is a new ruling, I wanted to like it. I wanted to go along with it. But as I just thought about it more and more and especially as I became involved with the New Horizons mission to the planet Pluto, I realized how misguided the IAU’s definition was and I just came to not accept that definition.

HM: So how has that mission enhanced our understanding of Pluto?

KR: It showed Pluto surface for the very first time. I grew up reading books about Pluto that said we don't know what the surface of Pluto looks like. And I was and I desperately wanted to know what the surface of Pluto looks like. And now, casually glancing at the incredible images from the New Horizon spacecraft passage by Pluto. You see Pluto in all of its complex geologic glory. And it's not just for science nerds. Anyone with an aesthetic eye for nature would hopefully think that Pluto is a beautiful place. You know there's these nitrogen-ice glaciers, these mountains made out of frozen water-ice. There’s this puffy blue atmosphere surrounding Pluto. It's just this complex geologic world. There are canyons, it has everything that planet have and to call it a non-planet. It just creates such cognitive dissonance.

HM: You sound like you really love Pluto. Is it your favorite?

KR: Oh, it sounds cheesy, but I don't think I have a favorite. You know I love Pluto I really do. You know Pluto’s great — it's one of my favorites.

HM: Now you say you love other planets. As I get it your definition that planets are basically round objects in space that are smaller than stars would suggest there's a lot more than the ones we familiar with. How many do you think we'd have if that's the definition that we use?

KR: Right. So you know this definition includes 110 round planets in our solar system. 110 Planets in our solar system that includes planets like our moon. Some of my favorite planets happen to be orbiting other planets and those include Jupiter's moon Europa that has the icy crust for the liquid water ocean that might harbor life. I also love Jupiter other moon, Io. It's the most volcanically active body in the solar system. So those are just some of the examples of moon planets that orbit other planets that are on my favorites list.

HM: Now will you take pity on kids and not expect them to learn 110 different planet names?

KR: Of course not. I mean on the periodic table of the elements there's 92 naturally occurring elements. Nobody is asked memorize all of those, but they are expected to understand though in chemistry classes is the organizational structure. And so there's this logical understanding that underpins the organization. In the same way with the solar system, students instead of being asked to memorize 110 planets or nine planets or how ever many planets you want there to be I suppose. They should be learning the zones of the solar system and how planets form and the natural organization.

HM: Beyond the science. Do you think maybe a lot of people are attached to Pluto because of the Disney dog?

KR: I cannot speak at all concerning Disney, but I will get to the crux of your question, which is that people have that non-scientific emotional attachment to the planet Pluto. And that’s perfectly legitimate. The solar system isn't just for scientists it's for artists, musicians, it's for theologians, it’s for people who study the humanities. Space it's a beautiful place and the emotional attachment and the aesthetic should hopefully come through amidst all the science.

HM: Kirby Runyon, thank you so much. I can hear the passion in your voice for… we'll call it a planet today.

KR: Thank you. Thank you so much for your interest.

HM: OK. Bye bye.

JD: We have more on this on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih. Kirby Runyon is a planetary geologist at Johns Hopkins University. We reached him in Baltimore.

[Music: Theremin]

Clyde Stubblefield obit

JD: He performed for years with one of the toughest bandleaders in music. Played on some of the funkiest, most important songs of the ‘60s in the early ‘70s. He was deservingly considered one of the greatest drummers of all time. And yet Clyde Stubblefield is best remembered for one 20 second drum break in one song. James Brown's “Funky Drummer”, when he was asked about it he said quote, “I just played something and that was it. But I didn't like the song. I still don't really get off on it.” More than a thousand songs that sampled that break including Public Enemy's “Fight the Power”, L.L. Cool J’s “Mama Said Knock You Out”, George Michael's “Freedom 90”. That “Funky Drummer break” is just a fleeting example of Clyde Stubblefield genius for rhythm. And he traced that genius back to his childhood where he was surrounded by the metronomic clanking of the factories in Chattanooga. He never took lessons, but he did work for a man who demanded innovative beats performed perfectly every single time. James Brown and he had to play them on stage with a second drummer the great John “Jabo” Starks. when Clyde and Jabo joined that band, they were just two of several drummers. But eventually they were the only two. In an interview they explained how that worked.

SOUNDCLIP

CLYDE STUBBLEFIELD: You have to understand the concept of the way he had it — the way it was done. We never played the same time together.

JOHN STARKS: Never

CS: You never did that. I knew the show; he learned the show and knew it too because he was in the middle of touring at that time. He will point back at him and he would start playing where ever he pointed to him. That's where he started playing.

JS: And this was during show. This was on stage.

SPEAKER: So you had to always be ready?

JS: Always be ready. You never took your eye off of him. Because if you ever caught you not looking at him and don't think he wasn’t looking he had you.

CS: That's when I learned about the fine. That’s 10,20,30 dollars a pop. But the thing of it is you had to always pay attention when he was up there becayse you never knew what he was going to do.

JS: Correct.

JD: Clyde Stubblefield. He died on Saturday. He was 73-years-old. He didn't get paid much during his life not even for that “Funky Drummer” break. His family has started a Go Fund Me page to raise money for his funeral, but his immortality is secure.

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Feb. 21, 2017 episode transcript

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