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The AIH Transcript for April 4, 2017

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello, I'm Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening, I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight:

CO: Darkness at first light. A dawn attack in Syria kills dozens of people, and sickens dozens more. A doctor who's been treating the victims believes it was a chemical strike.

JD: A potentially offensive line. The NHL announces it will not be participating in the upcoming Winter Olympics in South Korea. One former Canadian Olympian says that makes sense from a business perspective, but not from a fan’s.

CO: An exceptions acceptance. Damian Lee isn't a status Indian or even Indigenous. But, after a groundbreaking decision that put bonds above bloodlines, he's the newest member of Fort William First Nation.

JD: Fire escape. The late Francine Hughes Wilson ended years of abuse by setting her sleeping husband on fire. And that desperate act made her a key figure in the movement against domestic violence.

CO: All-you-can-eat buffet, all- you-can-drink Buffett. When it launches cherry coke in China, the Coca-Cola Company chooses an unusual model for the pop art on the can: the soda-guzzling multi-billionaire Warren Buffet.

JD: And… a flurry of inactivity. Now is the spring of their discontent in Newfoundland, because it's not spring, it's still winter and no one is more disappointed than Matthew Woodland, who spent 24 hours stuck on the highway alone in his truck. As It Happens, the Tuesday edition. Radio that traffics in flake news.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Syria chemical attack, non-Indigenous member, Newfoundland storm: stranded driver

Syria chemical attack

Guests: Abdulhai Tennari

JD: When people in northwestern Syria awoke today, they could not breathe. Reports say that close to 100 people were killed in the early morning attack in Idlib Province. More than 400 are injured. It is believed they are the victims of a chemical attack. Dr. Abdulhai Tennari has been treating victims at a nearby hospital. We reached him in Sarmin, Syria.

CO: Dr. Tennari, can you tell us what condition the victims are in — the ones you have been treating? What have you seen in the way of injuries?

ABDULHAI TENNARI: So I saw many patients today. Some of them were simple cases, some were moderate, some patients very severe cases and some of them were dead. Actually that the victims are hundreds. So I treated severe cases.

CO: And what did you see? What do you believe they were attacked with in the way of chemicals?

AT: We believe that it is sarin gas because of the symptoms. And when we give the antidote, there was a very good response. In the severe cases they become stable in the short time. So it makes us believe that it's the sarin gas.

CO: What does sarin gas do to people?

AT: Patients came with constricted pupils and this is very specific for this kind of agents. They came with difficulty breathing because this agent stimulates the dispersion of fluid inside the respiratory tract and their bronchus becomes obstructed with their own secretions. This nerve agent acts on the junction between the nerve and muscles. The patients become paralyzed.

CO: There are pictures circulating of the victims: small children, women and men all being in various states of suffering from the sarin gas attack. How painful is it for people?

AT: It is another way of death for our people here in Syria. A different way of death without blood. But it makes terror for the people that they will suffocate with all of their children. It takes a long time when attacked by airplanes. Maybe 10 hours after there were people who were dying and suffering. I saw many children without their families because they lost their parents. I saw people looking for children because they were sent to many hospitals. Hundreds of patients were divided to different hospitals. So it is difficult. Everything is not in one place.

CO: There are reports that entire families were killed in this attack. That, as you mentioned, children looking for their parents, who actually ingested gas in the course of looking for their families and went to the wrong place. People who are still trying to find their families in some of the places where there is gas. White Helmets who went to rescue people and inhaled the gas as well. It’s just extraordinary an awful scene that you have been treating today.

AT: Yes, actually it is like this. And maybe this might make it more difficult that some people were sent to Turkey. So it is not possible to communicate with them because the severe cases were sent to Turkey. They don't know if they are alive or what happened with them? It was a very difficult day.

CO: Can you tell us how the attack happened?

AT: Actually I live in 80 kilometers from the attack. But people believe that it was by military aircraft, which dropped this gas.

CO: And you know, of course, that the government of Bashar al-Assad is saying that it's not possible. He says that they never use chemical or toxic weapons. They never have and they never will. What do you say to his government?

AT: They did it before in 2013 outside of Damascus. There was hundreds of dead victims and the regime claimed at that time that he gave all his chemical weapons to the United States to destroy. But it seems that the regime still keeps its agents.

CO: With this attack in 2013 that you mentioned. This was something that the government the United States, Barack Obama and others said that this if this should happen, if there should be an attack like this, they would finally act and they didn't. That was the red line that was crossed. Now, do you think that that Syria feels that it's able to do these kinds of things with it without consequences?

AT: Yes, after the Russian interference in Syria. They think that they can do what they want.

CO: And do you think that the international community will respond in any way to this?

AT: We don’t think so because, as I mentioned, every day we have the same number of victims killed by Assad’s air force. So just because they suffocated they will do something? We don’t think they will be doing anything.

CO: Doctor what will you be doing tonight? Who are you treating? Who are you trying to keep alive in the course of this night?

AT: Yes. I still have some severe cases, which have improved since taking the antidote. So we'll take care of them and instead of sending them to Turkey if we have the antidote so we can treat the patients. They became stable now and we are still monitoring them.

CO: And what about reuniting people with their families? is that something that you're going to have to try to do?

AT: Yes, there are some people trying to communicate and spread the names and collect the information and find the families.

CO: Dr. Tennari, I know it's very late right now. And I know you're tired and you have much more work to do, so I'll let you go. But I thank you for speaking with us.

AT: Thank you very much.

CO: Good night.

AT: Good night. Thank you.

Dr. Abdulhai Tennari is a physician with the Syrian American Medical Society. We reached him in the city of Sarmin, that's in the northwestern Syrian province of Idlib. We have more on this story on our website: www.cb.ca/aih.

[Music: Ambient]

Non-Indigenous member

Guest: Damien Lee

JD: To Damien Lee, Fort William First Nation near Thunder Bay, Ontario is home. Mr. Lee teaches Indigenous Studies at the University of Saskatchewan. He was raised in Fort William. He went to school there. He played on the local hockey team. Mr. Lee, however, is not a status Indian. He is not even Indigenous and he has never been an official member of the fort Williams First Nation band, until now. The band council recently gave Mr. Lee full-fledged membership. And the move in Fort William is a bit of a departure from what other communities have been doing. In some cases limiting membership to keep out non-Indigenous residents we reach Damien Lee in Saskatoon.

CO: Mr. Lee, would you call yourself Ojibwe?

DAMIEN LEE: That's such an important question and it's so difficult the answer. Back home, at Fort First Nation, people claim me as Anishinaabe or Ojibwe. But, as I move away from that community, my whiteness starts to become all that people see because they don't know my relationships.

CO: But isn't the status of being of a nation — Ojibwe — isn't it based on blood? Is it that simple?

DL: No, it gets incredibly complex. Actually there are basically two schools of thought. There is the bloodline school of thought, which is culture and identity are bound up in blood. And then there's the other school of thought, which is you know when you belong and what your identity is determined politically by who claims you. And, if I'm being honest, actually there's a third school of kind of mix the two.

CO: The Fort William First Nation has recognized you as what?

DL: They recognized me as a non-Indian band member. So a non-status band member.

CO: And what have they said to you about this decision that you should be a member of the Fort William First Nation?

DL: So what they said is you are a deemed member of the Fort William First Nation band. So they're using their 1987 membership code to process my application. And so I've applied under the adoption clause, which says basically a person who was adopted by members of the band become a member as of the date of the adoption. And the way I read that, I've been a member since I was adopted in 1980.

CO: Can you tell us a bit about your story? How you came to make for William First Nation your home?

DL: Yes, so I was born in Oshawa in 1980, and my mum moved to Thunder Bay shortly after. And she eventually met my dad. He's from Fort William First Nation, so he's Ojibwe. He adopted me through an Anishinaabe custom that my grandmother oversaw. So that was 1980, and about three years later, they were married. And we you know had a family there. I have two sisters and a brother.

CO: And so you grew up on Fort William First Nation. Were you treated any differently? Was there any distinction made between you and your siblings?

DL: No, not at all. I participated in everything that any other kid in the band participated including like playing on the reserve hockey teams, taking the school bus, you know going to Christmas parties and I was fully included.

CO: So why did you want to take this next step? Why did you ask to be considered to be a full-fledged member of that First Nation?

DL: I believe that Anishinaabe and Ojibwe nations have their own legal systems that are valid. And so in 2011, I was doing research for my master's degree and I heard about our membership code. I didn't know about it before that. And so seeing that it actually moved the community outside of the kind of standard approaches to determining who is a band member, so normally that Indians status. Once I saw that you know that created an opening that we could move away from that. I wanted to explore the option to have my customary adoption upheld as a form of inherent Anishinaabe or Ojibwe law.

CO: Now you have this legal status. What does it allow you to do that you couldn't before?

DL: Voting in elections, running for Chief and council, voting in referenda and it also means I can live on the reserve again and be buried on the reserve. There are some limitations, I'm not eligible for education funding as far as I understand. Also taxations because I don't have a status card, I can't go to the store and you know get a tax break on certain items.

CO: What have you heard from people on and off the reserve? What are they saying about your new membership?

DL: The bulk of it is very positive. There's a good chunk of the kind of supportive folks that are cautiously supportive. For example, people who their children should be members, but don't have status because of the way the Indian Act has worked over the past 160 years. This could also be seen as a slap in the face.

CO: Other comments I think were, “We're letting a stranger join the band.” Another was, “Ancestral bloodline should always be considered first.” “You may have opened the floodgates to our demise.” What do you make of those comments?

DL: People are correct to say that children who were born of band members or Anishinaabe community members. There's no doubt in my mind that they should belong as fully as any other band member. I think that their anger is validated. However, I think that the thing about floodgates, there is no such thing as the floodgates in my mind. I mean if we're talking about self-determination, the power to say yes to someone like me, is the same power to say no to people who are showing up and applying you know based on no solid grounds.

CO: You know people will fairly or not fairly compare what we're hearing from you with what happened the story of Canadian author Joseph Boyd, who was writing novels and people believed because he let us believe that he was had Indigenous ancestry. And now it's revealed that he doesn't. How different is your story from Joseph Boyden?

DL: I would say that it's there are some significant differences there. The first and probably the most important is that my community claims me. there was a history of non-Indigenous, especially white people, trying to play Indian and trying to claim that space…

CO: you would never would make the kind of claim that Joseph Boyden made?

DL: You know identity is a collective process. You can't just be the only person that's claiming that space. It also requires a community or nation to claim you back.

CO: So if Joseph Boyden had consensus around his claim you think it would have been valid?

DL: Yeah, you know if there was a community that was standing up and saying that this is a child of our community. You know we claim him. I think that that's a far different narrative.

CO: Well other nations are not like Fort William there's different policies like I'm thinking of Kahnawake in Quebec. The view there is that it's more exclusive. That you have to be status and you have to be part of that nation. What is it about the culture do you think in Fort William that put them in this other direction that made them perhaps more inclusive than some other nations?

DL: I think that when it comes to determining who belongs, it's based on love and it's based on families deciding who belongs with the nation. It's families that renew the nation and families renew themselves through having children, adopting people and marrying people. It's families that renew the nation. Not necessarily the office or the Canadian government.

CO: Lots to think about here Mr.Lee. I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

DL: Thanks for the call.

JD: Damien Lee is a new member of Fort William First Nation, near Thunder Bay. We reached him in Saskatoon, where he teaches Indigenous Studies at the University of Saskatchewan. And we have got more on that story on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Ambient]

Newfoundland storm: Stranded driver

Guest: Matthew Woodland

JD: April showers bring May flowers. April blizzards bring a bunch of curse words and rage and frustration. The first official day of spring was two weeks ago. Apparently it is busy elsewhere because Newfoundland and Labrador is still in the throes of a nasty, nasty winter. On Monday night, the province was hit with a blizzard that left snow drifts as high as 12 feet. And don't talk to Matthew Woodland about spring. When we reached him earlier today, he was in his truck on Route 210 on Newfoundland's Burin Peninsula, but he had been stuck there for nearly 24 hours without moving an inch. We reached Mr. Woodland, unfortunately, still in his truck.

CO: Matthew, can you describe what's around you?

MATTHEW WOODLAND: Pretty much just a lot of snow. It's blowing snowing and, right now, the snow banks are above the truck at the moment.

CO: Is it still falling?

MW: No, it's not falling. It's just blowing in this area. There are not a lot of trees and it's just wide open.

CO: Can you see any other vehicles?

MW: Yeah, I can make it a transport truck up ahead of me now. This is one of the first times to see him now for almost a day.

CO: Can you open your door? Can you get out of the truck?

MW: Yeah, I can get out on the passenger side.

CO: On the other side?

MW: On the other side the drifts are probably like a foot or two away from the truck. But the winds are strong and I just can't get the door open.

CO: Some people have said that there's drifts on that highway — on Highway 210 — that are 20 feet high.

MW: Oh definitely yeah — if not even higher. The last few winters have been pretty easy on us, but they've been known to get really high.

CO: Just to remind you, Matthew, this is not winter anymore. This is supposed to be spring.

Yeah I know. We don't really get spring here in Newfoundland.

CO: So now you've been there in that track since last night. Yeah and it's now going on two o'clock in the afternoon on Tuesday. What do have you doing to amuse yourself?

MW: Been watching a little bit of Netflix and talking to a few people pretty much it besides anxiously waiting.

CO: Did you bring any food with you?

MW: Yeah, I've got about a day's worth of food. And the highway workers there, they just give me a little lunch there a little while back that they brought with them.

CO: What are the highway workers up to?

MW: They're just therewith a loader now just trying to clear the snow. The plows that really work and this is too deep.

CO: How are they doing it? Where are they moving the snow to?

MW: Just piling up on the side of the road as best they can. It's pretty much just clearing one lane and leaving one lane blocked.

CO: Have you met anybody else who's on the highway with you?

MW: No, I talked to the trucker in front of me in there yesterday. But until now, the snow has been too deep to go back up to his truck to talk to him anymore.

CO: This is a transport truck. What are you carrying?

MW: Right now I'm empty, but I haul fuel for a living.

CO: Are you losing money?

MW: No. Right now I'm not. Thankfully my company's pretty good like that. They pay in situations like this.

CO: How often have you been in this situation?

MW: To this degree, only once before. But I'm always in some sort of weather or another. I drive mostly nights and there's no plow service in Newfoundland overnight, so it gets pretty interesting at times.

CO: Where are you coming from?

MW: I’m coming from a town called Fortune.

CO: OK, and so you're and you're headed to St. John's?

MW: St. John's. That’s where we load some product to.

CO: And this has been record weather. You've not had snowfall of this nature. Now it it's spring, I guess it's even a record for the spring as well. What is it been like to try and get around this winter?

MW: It's been hard. Like in my line of work, going to gas stations, those places are already pretty tight. And when you get a lot of snow in there it makes maneuvering around pretty difficult.

CO: So how are the schools closed down in Burin?

MW: Last I heard they were. I think some opened up this afternoon. I know my daughter had school this afternoon.

CO: How is your family coping with all this snow?

MW: They're pretty stressed out. My wife worries about me, of course, when I'm on the road and I think my little girl enjoys it because she misses a lot of school because of it.

When do you think you'll be moving again?

MW: I don't know. The way the way progress is going here now, I'll be lucky if I can get out of here today I'm thinking.

CO: Really? Another night you're going to spend there?

MW: It is looking that way. This is just one bad spot and there's a lot more spots just like it ahead yet.

CO: Have you ever spent two nights in your truck before?

MW: Normally I spend a lot of nights in the truck. But, at the moment, I'm just in the day cab because my truck with the bed in it is in the shop. So it's not used to spending this much time in a small space like this.

CO: Especially sitting in the same place for all these hours.

MW: Yes.

CO: What are you watching?

MW: Been watching a couple of Netflix series. I re-watched “The Goon”last night since part two is coming out soon.

CO: What else have you got to keep you amused for the next maybe 24 hours?

MW: Not a whole lot really. Just my phone I guess.

CO; And you have enough fuel in your tank?

MW: Yeah, I do.

CO: Well Matthew, I'll let you go. I hope you're OK and that you find something to amuse yourself with between now and time you get out. And I hope you get out safely.

MW: All right. Thank you very much.

CO: Good to talk to you. Thanks.

JD: That was Matthew Woodland, at the time, still stuck in his truck on Newfoundland’s Burin Peninsula. Now, he'd been stuck on the highway at the time we spoke to him for just shy of 24 hours due to a blizzard. But, not long after that conversation, the cavalry arrived to tow him out. And when we reached him again this afternoon, he was on the road again moving his time on his way to St. John's, which is great. Except that after he arrived in St. John's, he's still going to have a four hour drive ahead of him to get home.

Part 2: NHL Olympics, Francine Hughes Wilson obit

NHL Olympics

Guest: Corey Hirsch

JD: Sidney Crosby and Connor McDavid will not be representing Canada at the Winter Olympics next year. They will not play on a line together. They will not score any highlight-reel goals and they will not bring home any medals. Because yesterday, the National Hockey League announced that its athletes will not be participating in the 2018 Winter Games in Pyongyang, South Korea. And however angry players or fans might get. There will be no further debate on the subject. In a statement the NHL said it quote, “considers the matter officially closed.” Corey Hirsch was on Canada's 1994 Olympic hockey team in Lillehammer, Norway. That was the last year, incidentally, before the NHL started participating. And after that, he was an NHL goalie for several years and retired from pro hockey in 2006. We reached Corey Hirsch in Phoenix.

CO: Corey, what do you think of the NHL decision to pull out of the 2018 Winter Olympics?

CORY HIRSCH: Well, I have you know mixed feelings. You know I was the last year that non-National Hockey League players went in 1994. So I know what it did for my career for other guy’s careers. So were going to get that and the hockey is going to be good. That’s not the issue. As far as the NHL goes, they made a business decision and quite frankly I don't disagree with it. The IOC makes millions upon millions of dollars with the NHL players going over and they want to be compensated for it. I don't blame them.

CO: What did they want? What did the NHL, as a business, what would it have to get from the Olympics in order to make it a viable business decision?

CH: I don't I don't know the exact numbers. I know the IOC made an offer and the NHL didn't think it was enough. You know if when the NHL sends players over that is a huge money maker for the IOC instead of amateurs. But where the trickledown effect comes, for me and my concern isn't so much about the National Hockey League or the IOC, they can play their games whatever. What hurts me is that it affects the youth program. So registrations because kids that would be watching the Olympics and the National Hockey League players that would say hey mom and dad, you know what I want to play now! And its registrations I would go towards Hockey Canada, USA Hockey, federations and apparel back home. you know things that would create revenues for programs that Hockey Canada uses to fund youth programs across Canada. So that's my concern in all of this. Is that it really affects the trickledown program with the kids. And that's means less registrations and less dollars for those kids to play.

CO; Let’s go back to the business decision. And so I mean in a dollars and cents frame it looks like they don't get anything from it. But there there's more to business than just the money. I mean there is the excitement that it creates. The players love it, the fans love it. There's energy in it. It expands the whole idea of hockey to other countries even. Isn't there a broader sense of what business is that NHL might look at?

CH: I don't think that they're going to close the door on it. But I mean it's no different than a person going to work for an employer OK. You know you want to be compensated fairly for what the owners are making. And it's a tough balance as far as what the National Hockey League wants to and I don't know the numbers of it. I'm not in the inside deal. I don't know what happened, but I do know that the NHL has a right that if they're going to send their players over and the IOC makes you know that much more money off of their players, they should be compensated fairly.

CO: Well some of the players said that they're going to go anyways. Are they able to do that?

CH: I don't see why not. But I don't think the NHL teams are going to pay their insurance. I know Ted Leonsis is one that supports Alex Ovechkin going. So if Alex wants to go I mean that's probably going to be up to him. But they're taking a huge liability risk by going if something was to happen.

CO: You were on the Canadian Olympic team in 1994 in Lillehammer and what was it like? Just describe what it is to actually play on one of these teams?

CH: Well, I'll tell you what, this is the other side where I'm torn on because I know what it did for guys that I played with. Guys that were pretty much done you know the National Hockey League teams had let them go. They weren't going to get another opportunity, played in the Olympics and then went on to play you know a hundred on more games in the National Hockey League. If that didn't happen for them, they would have never played the National Hockey League. And there were some long shots there too as well. So I know from a personal standpoint, I want to see the amateurs because I know what it did for my career and some of my friend’s careers. But there's something about watching Austin Matthews and Connor McDavid and Sydney Crosby and all of them playing each other and playing the lines. It would be amazing. I still hold out hope that this is just you know kind of a business strategy by the National Hockey League or by the IOC and they'll get a deal done.

CO: And if they don't get a deal and they don't go what do you think it will happen? Do you think that the kids would get excited watching someone other than superstars on that ice?

CH: Well, I think getting back to the 1980 Olympic team of “Miracle on Ice”. That was one of the greatest moments in history and that was amateurs. ’92 and ’94, we won silver medals — we were in the gold medal games— as Canadians and almost won gold. The hockey is going to be the same. I think what you’re going to see is you know in terms of dollars and cents. Sponsors aren't going to pay as much to you know for amateurs as they would for the NHL players.

CO: Do you think that it makes a difference where the Olympics are being held as far as the NHL? Do you think that since the 2020 Winter Olympics will be in China that's more appealing than playing in South Korea?

CH: Yeah, I don't think it matters if it's China or South Korea or where it is. I think the issue is that it's a long way for these owners to send their players and they come back tired. They come back fatigued. I saw that when I coached with St. Louis. We sent nine guys over to Sochi. They came back and they all were fatigued and had injuries and if they did play again, you know they were playing you know at half speed because they were they were exhausted. And we ended up losing out in the first round of the playoffs. And if it's in North America, it sure is a lot easier to send your player to somewhere in North America and have them not have a travel fatigue that they were just going overseas like that.

CO: It sure is exciting hockey.

CH: It's always exciting. I encourage people and it's going to be great. It's still going to be great, but it's unfortunate that the business side has to come into this. And that's really what's going on here.

CO: Corey, it's good to talk to you.

CH: Thank you for having me.

JD: Corey Hirsch played for Team Canada at the ‘94 Olympics. We reached him in Phoenix. Now as Mr. Hirsch mentioned, at least one star player is planning to go to the Olympics anyway: Alexander Ovechkin of the Washington Capitals. He insisted he is still going to play for the Russian Olympic team in 2018 whether the NHL wants him to or not. His team's owner said that he would support that decision. You can find more on this story on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Jazz]

Joan Fraser on Anthem

JD: “I am an ardent feminist. I do not support this bill.” That was one sentence from a speech Liberal Senator Joan Fraser recently gave in the red chamber. She was referring to the bill that would amend part of the national anthem. And then she went on to explain why she is against it. Now you may remember when the bill passed in the House of Commons last year. It was put forth by the late Liberal MP Mauril Belanger, who died after a battle with ALS afterward. And the bill looks to make the anthem gender neutral by changing the line, “all thy sons command” to “all of us command.” But some — like Senator Fraser — say that they cannot support it. In her speech she described the proposed changes to “O Canada” as quote, “clunky”, “leaden” and “pedestrian”. And she pointed out grammatical errors. And she said that there are other lines already in the anthem that are exclusionary towards other groups of people. And then, toward the end of her speech, She said this.

SOUNDCLIP

JAON FRASER: There have been times in this country when Canadian patriotism was not something to be taken for granted. There have been times in this country when to stand up and say I believe in this country took a certain amount of courage. And to sing “O Canada” was a statement of that belief and that loyalty and that patriotism. It was the singing not the words that mattered. And it still is. If we are to become engrossed in the idea that we must always at all times be correctly modern. We lose a part of our heritage. It may not be a perfect heritage. I'm not suggesting it is. But it is ours and I suggest that it deserves respect and acceptance for what it is: imperfect, but our own. Therefore, I do not support this bill although I have the greatest possible respect for those who do support it and for the intentions that live behind them.

JD: That was Liberal Senator Joan Fraser speaking in the Senate last week about proposed changes to Canada's national anthem. The bill proposing those changes is currently in its third reading in the Senate. According to CBC News, supporters of the bill — like Liberal MP Greg Fergus — hope that it will be passed by Canada’s 150th later this year.

[Music: Indie rock]

Francis Hughes Wilson obit

Guest: Barbra Niess-May

40 years ago, a Michigan housewife ended years of abuse at the hands of her husband by pouring gasoline around his bed as he slept and then setting it on fire. Francine Hughes immediately confessed to the murder, but the descriptions of that abuse helped the jury find her not guilty. Her story inspired the book and the movie “The Burning Bed”, and inspired a national conversation about domestic violence in the US. Francine Hughes Wilson died two weeks ago of pneumonia. She was 69-years-old. Barbara Niess-May is the executive director of the women's shelter Safe House Center in Danville, Michigan. We reached her in New York City. And a warning: some of the details of Ms. Hughes Wilson's story are disturbing.

CO: Ms. Niess-May, can you tell us a bit about what life was like for Francine Hughes before she decided to kill her husband?

BARBRA NIESS-MAY: Life for Francine Hughes wasn't much different than other survivors of domestic violence in the ‘70s — particularly in Michigan. Like you and I, Francine sought to resolve her own

problems and there were much many fewer resources for survivors of domestic violence in Michigan in the ‘70s. Actually not a lot of resources throughout the country for that matter, and she sought to do the best she could. She remained loyal to him even after they divorced and was willing to help care for him after a major accident. However, he continued to be abusive and it came down to a day where she realized he would kill her if she didn't take action. And felt like she had to kill him so that she could survive to raise her children.

CO: What did she do?

BNM: One day, after extreme abuse, extreme belittling and a lot happening in the wake of many, many broken promises and frankly broken bones and bruises and beatings. She decided that she needed to kill him. So she put her kids in the car and said wait here. Went inside, poured gasoline around the bed he was sleeping in and that the gasoline on fire. It burned the bed and killed her ex-husband. She went on to go tell the police what she had done and eventually it turned into a court case that acquitted her based on terms of insanity. Now we know today and we knew then too that she knew exactly what she was doing, but there wasn't any case law for self-defence in these kinds of cases. So they had to go with temporary insanity, which in the end allowed her to be able to take care of her kids.

CO: This was in the 1970s and the police had come to her house when she called them before about the beatings and the violence. And so and this was typical of how police responded at these times. What happened when she called the cops?

BNM: When she would call the police they would often say things like well we didn't witness it, so we can arrest anybody. Or when they were married, particularly, they would say well, you can't really testify against him, so why even bother? There weren't a lot of laws to protect her in terms of the domestic violence. It wasn't the first response to arrest.

CO: How did this change things for the perception and also the treatment of women in abusive situations? It’s called “Burning Bed Syndrome” So what changed because of it?

BNM: Well, the film came out in 1984, which in and of itself was a turning point, because in the United States very soon after the Victims of Crime Act passed, which was a major legislation that supported survivors of sexual assault, domestic violence and many other victims. But let's rewind back to when it actually happened and was hitting the papers. It was in 1977 and as a result of this particular case the notoriety it got. It served as a coalescing force for those in the battered women's movement to say look, this is what happens when we don't have services for survivors. And shelters started to pop up all over the country, which in turn, surprisingly enough, wound up causing far fewer assailants to die. If you think about it it's kind of shocking because they had a place to go they didn't feel like they had to kill their husbands or boyfriends. They didn't have to resort to what might have been known as the “Burning Bed Syndrome”. Even today, we have more laws. We've made major advancements. And the people who started this work 40-50 years ago have a lot to be proud of. The reality is though is that we still have so far to go.

CO: What happened to Francine Hughes?

BNM: Well, she was acquitted and she quickly wanted to go into you know just private life. She did not set out to be a pioneer. I've heard clips of her saying I just am a mom that wants to take care of her kids. She wound up leaving the state of Michigan, got remarried and you know as the world now knows died very quietly and out of the limelight.

CO: What do you think her legacy will be.

BNM: I think her legacy will go along with many, many others who simply want to live life to their own fullest and didn't expect that maybe one act that they took or one place of bravery they went into is going to change the landscape for so many others. I almost want to liken her to Rosa Parks because it's not I mean there was talk about Rosa Parks positioning herself. But in the end, she just wanted life to be better. And that was the same thing for Francine Hughes.

CO: We'll leave it there. Ms. Niess-May, thank you.

BNM: Thank you.

JD: Barbra Niess-May is the executive director of Safe House Center women's shelter in Danville, Michigan. We reached her in New York City and she was speaking about Francine Hughes Wilson, who her abusive husband on fire as he slept in 1977. Mrs. Wilson died last month. She was 69-years-old.

Buffett Coke cans

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: Warren Buffet plays a ukulele and sings]

WARREN BUFFET: I like to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony. I'd like to buy the world a Coke and keep it company.

JD: The Classic Coke jingle performed by an octogenarian with an out of tune ukulele. And if you're muttering don't quit your day job. Don't worry, he won't. Because he is Warren Buffett and his day job is making hundreds of millions of dollars from his investments, which include a nine per cent stake in Coca-Cola. Of course you heard his name, but you may be having a little trouble actually picturing Warren Buffett. I mean he's famous, but he's not a celebrity per se. So my advice is just type his name into Google or go to China and buy a can of Cherry Coke. You see the Coca-Cola Company has just launched Cherry Coke in China and it wanted to enter the market with a bang. So naturally it has emblazoned each can of the stuff with the face of a man who is a huge celebrity in China: Warren Buffett. Apparently has phenomenal wealth and investing savvy have made him famous enough in China that people will recognize a cartoon version of its face on a cold can of Cherry Coke. What's more they will drink it, which may not provide the bribe them new insight into what stocks to buy. But will definitely provide them with a massive dose of high fructose corn syrup. Now I should note that Mr. Buffett is invested in Coke in more ways than one. Here's an excerpt from an interview he gave CNBC last year.

SOUNDCLIP

WB: I drink probably five 12 ounce Coke’s a day. And that's about 700 calories. And. I've been doing it, more or less, all my life. I can't imagine anybody that feels better than I do. I mean I'm happy. I enjoy life. You know I I've always wondered if I had a twin and he had to eat broccoli and asparagus and brussel sprouts and done it every day and I'd been drinking my Coke and eating potato chips and here are some cookies that also have 100 calories per ounce. I think the other guy would be gone. I mean I think he probably would have committed suicide. And he certainly wouldn’t feel as good about life as I do. I feel good every day.

JD: Five cans a day all his life. He practically cut his teeth on this stuff — before those teeth disintegrated. So congratulations to Mr. Buffett and to everyone who will guzzle Cherry Coke from a can with his face on it. That would seem strange over here. But apparently in China having an 86-year-old multi-billionaire on your pop can is just fizziness as usual.

Part 3: Stouffville band follow-up, Baltimore consent decree, Ikutaro Kekahshi obit

Stouffville band follow-up

Guest: Kevin Kerr

JD: They weren't sure they could pull it off at first, but they agreed to make a concerted effort. On St. Patrick's Day, we spoke with Kevin Kerr, the organizer of a concert marathon at a pub in Stouffville, Ontario. He and the various performers at the pub were going to go for the world record for the longest nonstop concert. They did have some competition from a Detroit coffee shop, which was in the midst of its own extremely long concert. But that competition has ended. The attempt south of the border ended just over a week ago. And now Kevin Kerr and the hundreds of people who have played at his pub over the past two and a half weeks are just hours away from claiming that world record. We reached Mr. Kerr earlier today at the Earl of Whitchurch pub in Stouffville.

CO: Kevin, how are you holding up?

KEVIN KERR: I'm doing all right. Given that it's been 19 days.

CO: Somebody wrote one thing they said that you had bags and your eyes down to your knees.

KK: I've heard all kinds of stuff like that.

CO: But now you’re how many hours away from being done?

KK: So we're going to be finishing tonight at 11:55 p.m.

CO: We're talking to you in the middle of the afternoon, but it's been 18 days since we spoke with you.

KK: That's right. It’s flown by!

CO: And what's it been like? Describe what that's been like?

KK: It's so hard to put into words. I mean the energy level in the community has been absolutely incredible. There’s been close to 450 bands. And it's just incredible to see how everyone has come together for this.

CO: 450 bands? I mean there's obviously more bands and you haven't Stoufville. Where did they come from?

KK: All over the country. I mean mainly around the GTA, but these had bands come from as far as Vancouver and Halifax and Montreal to come be a part of this.

CO: And were they booked in advance or did they just get here the word and they just got on the train or plane?

KK: A little bit of both. I mean we booked a lot of local bands and as the word spread it spread pretty quickly.

CO: If you hold it they will come.

KK: That's kind of been my motto since the beginning.

CO: Now tell people who haven't heard what you've been up to what it is you're attempting to do here?

KK: So we have organized and now put on the longest concerts by multiple artists in recorded history.

CO: And going for a Guinness World Record.

KK: A Guinness Book of World Records record.

CO: And last time we spoke, we were also talking with the owner of a Detroit coffee shop that was going for the same title and had the same title from before. They were going to try to just to hold on to its title. At what point did you pass them?

KK: We surpassed them yesterday morning. So the actual official record is still in Vegas until someone else is qualified. So we passed the Vegas record on Sunday morning at about 7:00 o'clock a.m. in the morning and then we surpassed what Detroit had done the following morning. And now we're just cementing the record.

CO: And what was the what was the Vegas record you had to beat?

KK: 372 hours and 10 minutes by the Ri Ra Irish Pub in Mandalay Bay. A 24-hour city and we brought it to Stouffville, Ontario.

CO: I mean Mandalay Bay is a pretty busy casino place that has lots of people. So how much more difficult has it been to do this in Stouffville?

KK: You know what it surprised me. It wasn't as difficult as we thought it would be in the sense that the community was very willing to be a part of this.

CO: In order to do this record that you had to have how many people who are awake and present at any given time?

KK: A minimum of 10 people conscious at all times.

CO: Was that difficult to pull off?

KK: No, actually not really. I mean the first night we actually got a pretty big scare. It was a Friday night and as soon as four o'clock in the morning hit, we dropped down to about 11 people. We realized we were going to have a problem in the weekdays if we couldn't do it on a Friday night. So we kind of let the word out and we reached out to the community and all the people that were coming during the good hours, we let them know we needed their help and they really pulled together. Most nights we had no less than 20-30 people.

CO: Is it true that you once called the police very early in the morning?

KK: Yeah, very early on we called the police and then they started making regular stops and second checking to see if we needed any help.

CO: You called the police in order to get corium — you needed their numbers.

KK: Well, of course, we did. But we didn't call the emergency line. So we called the non-emergency line and they were happy to help.

CO: How did they respond when you made that call?

KK: They laughed and then they came over and enjoyed coffee and hung out with us and enjoyed the music. You know there's not much else for them to be doing in Stouffville at that time of the morning. They were happy to be to be involved and help out — the whole community was.

CO: And did they come in their pajamas? Did they bring things to eat? Describe what was going on in the middle of the night?

KK: So lots of people came in dressed in pajamas. We did out actually a couple of special pajama party nights and we provided a lot of coffee and donuts and muffins and sandwiches as did local community bakeries and stuff. They all brought us stuff, so it was kind of exciting. It was a neat opportunity to spend the early hours of the morning in a pub.

CO: I saw though the mayor of Stouffville was saying that he went to see the concert and it was in line and that you had big lineups trying to get in during the evening.

KK: Every single evening we had a line up. It was pretty amazing and he had to wait in line for quite some time to get in as did everybody else.

CO: And that's new in Stouffville — that’s Toronto — but you don't have that in Stouffville I presume?

KK: Never, never. Stouffville’s never seen anything like this.

CO: And what about you? Did you get any sleep at all or are you just sort of like back and forth to the pub all the time?

KK: Yeah, pretty much. I mean the moments that I was able to sneak away I don't know how much quality I got sleep in the sleep that I did get because I was always half awake you know concerning myself of what was going on. And you know turning live feed on from home and making sure everything was OK. And you know I just every part of me wanted to be there at all times and make sure that things are running well. Even though I have a fantastic team, you still want to be there and be a part of it.

CO: Did you do that? Did you get up in the middle of the night and just head out to the pub?

KK: Pretty much every single night. I mean I spent most of the nights there and the nights that I didn't, I usually popped back in for an hour or two here. You know when we did hit low audience numbers and we went to our emergency list, I was one of the main numbers on that list.

CO: What were some of the highlights? What were some of the amazing bands that played?

KK: Oh, the guys from Glass Tiger came by and played. That was pretty exciting. We had Last Bullet was a really exciting night when they played. Ben Hudson Band, Future History was really exciting and all kinds. There's been so many so many moments, I feel like it's going to take me a week or two to comprehend everything this has happened.

CO: Who's going to be there when you get 11 o'clock p.m. tonight? What's the plan for that?

KK: It’s unannounced right now. There are a few names up in the air and we're trying to pull something together for a big finale and we hope that it works out. And we'll all be there celebrating. There were very rare times that all of us were in the room at the same time and that was when we launched, when we broke the official record and I think tonight because it's the finale. So the energy is going to be just through the roof tonight.

CO: And are you going to sleep for a week after this?

KK: I hope so. I’m looking forward to it.

CO: I'm sure you're going to do it so I'm going to say congratulations Kevin and good luck.

KK: Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

CO: Take care. Bye bye.

JD: That's Kevin Kerr, organizer of an attempt to beat the record for the world's longest concert. We reached him earlier today at the Earl of Whitchurch pub in Stouffville.

[Music: Pop]

Google cool survey

JD: It's official folks: I am cool! Dudes, I’m bugging over this news. You heard it here first, the results of my informal e-mail survey around the AIH office. The question was simply “Do you think Jeff is cool? Yes or no. If yes, click the link.” Pretty much everyone did. And that link took them to this rad gif of me dressed as The Fonz giving the double thumbs up under the heading “ehhh!” So sick, you had to see it. Anyway I got the idea from a similar survey that Google conducted among 13 to 17-year-olds known as “Generation Z” and 18 to 24-year-olds and referred to as “millennials”. And Google gave us study a wicked name: “It's Lit: a guide to what teens think is cool.” And you know what, just in case you're one of those people who thinks Google got off to a real uncool start with a name like that. The findings may surprise you. Because what the company concluded after canvassing more than a thousand teenagers is that teens think Google is very cool indeed, which Google defines as quote, “unique, impressive, interesting, amazing, or awesome!” unquote. Other brands that made the cool cut, according to Google: YouTube, which topped Netflix, Hulu and Spotify as the coolest streaming media platform. Not to mention the number one coolest brand overall. Great news for its parent company, which is Google. Google Plus — Google’s social media platform also fared well falling just behind Facebook and ahead of Twitter and Pinterest. Also Chrome, which trailed just behind Nike to finish tenth in the Top ten coolest brands. Another cool coincidence because chrome is owned by Google. In the high profile, but not so cool column: McDonald's, Yahoo and Facebook Messenger. And the least cool column: Wall Street Journal, Vice and Whatsapp. But you know whatevs, right? It's not like Google's bragging or anything because that would be like lame. it's just saying No big D, right?

[Music: Percusive]

Baltimore consent decree

Guest: Brandon Scott

JD: It was supposed to restore trust in Baltimore Police. In a race against time before Donald Trump became President, the U.S. Department of Justice and Baltimore City officials established what is called a consent decree. A consent decree is a court enforceable agreement to reform the police department, which had been found to be rife with racial discrimination. The decree was agreed to in principle in the final weeks of the Obama administration and everyone was on board with it: the Mayor, the police commissioner and local activists. Now, however, the new Attorney General Jeff Sessions says that he is reviewing all such consent decrees across the country and is seeking to postpone the pending agreement with Baltimore. Brandon Scott is a Baltimore City Councillor and the chair of the public safety committee. We reached him in Baltimore.

CO: Councillor Scott, what do you think that Attorney General Jeff Sessions is up to?

BRANDON SCOTT: He up to what we knew was up to. And that is that police reform is not something that the Attorney General holds in high regard. He's more of a law and order focused guy and that's what he's going to focus on. No one should be surprised by the move that he's made.

CO: What are the priorities for the Trump administration that comes to policing?

BS: They said they want to focus on law and order and how to pull back some of the reform efforts and to focus in on strictly being tough on crime. And it's unfortunate that they don't understand that being tough on crime and having better relationships with police and citizens are one in one.

CO: What are the priorities of the reforms that Baltimore is trying to introduce?

BS: Well it is a long, long, long list of reforms. Well, basically we want to repair the relationship between Baltimore and its police department in its entirety. We want to make sure that folk’s civil rights are being upheld. We want to make sure that the officers have the technology in the 21st century to get the job done. We want to make sure that they have a better relationship with the community, so the community can help them to solve crimes. We want to make sure that our young people and officers have a better relationship. Those are just some of the things that we want to do. We want to make sure that there's transparency. And really the things that we've already started to do here in Baltimore with body cameras and things like that.

CO: And you don't feel that what you're reading in this memo from the Attorney General's office this is not the priority of the government at this point?

BS: Not the federal government. It is a priority for our local city government, but not for the federal government.

CO: Can you remind people I know it's a very large story and we did cover it extensively on this show. But just remind people what happened that led to this consent decree in Baltimore?

BS: So actually before the incident and everyone thinks. Many elected officials had already called for a consent decree or a Department of Justice investigation into our police department, which always leads to a consent decree. And that's why because we've had several incidents of police brutality, but also over the years, have had a relationship that has become free and with people's civil rights being violated and everything has happened. We all agree — police and citizens united — that we need reform.

CO: The big incident, of course, you're referring to is Freddie Gray, an African-American who died in custody — quite violently. And what did the review of the police procedures in Baltimore reveal? What were the cracks and the issues that were at the heart of what they discovered?

BS: First and most importantly that their relationship with the community was broken. That civil rights were being violated and that policies were not up today and that being withheld. That punishments were not being laid out to officers when necessary and that the technology for the department was not up to par. Those are just a few of the many, many things without going into all the details.

CO: And there just a few of the details. There was evidence of a great deal of racial disparity and of racist behavior.

BS: Black people are a lot more likely to be pulled over, be stopped and frisked and to be hurt by police officers. And that goes across the gamut. The department also had issues with dealing with women and sexual assault victims. Dealing with people from the LGBT community and all of those things are true throughout the police department. And that’s why we ask for reform.

CO: And so some of these — including the overly aggressive tactics that escalated encounters — it led to the idea that the Baltimore police department members — the officers — lacked training and proper tactics and that's what you were attempting to introduce, is that right?

BS: We want to make sure that we are training a police force for the 21st century. And one that focuses on community policing and not trying to be like some sort of occupying army, which we’ve had under previous administrations — many throughout my childhood.

CO: Given what you're hearing now from Jeff Sessions’s office and from the Department of Justice, do you think that the reforms that you're proposing for Baltimore are still possible?

BS: Yeah, we're going to have to push for it without them. It’s going to be harder to do that without the federal government. But regardless, we're going to have to do it here. So we know that we're going to remain committed.

CO: So you're going to go ahead with it. But do you need any help from the federal government in order to implement this?

BS: No, we weren't expecting money from them. So we're going to just push forward. But we hope that the judge will deny their request and that we’ll have to go through with the decree anyway.

CO: The Attorney General says he wants to make sure federal law enforcement agreements are in line with the he's talked about the President's principles one of them being that this is a quote, “The individual misdeeds of bad actors should not impugn on the work police officers perform in keeping American community safe.” What does that say to you?

BS: It says that when you talk about this president and you talk about someone who's a junior varsity player trying to play in the pro league. He has no experience he doesn't understand what that means. He is painting a broad brush. Nobody who talks about reform talks about it being all officers. But when you talk to officers on the street, for example, we recently had seven police officers here in Baltimore indicted. And the people that were the most happy and excited to see them be indicted were police officers that I knew because they don't want to work with them. They are the people that give them a bad name. So what they also are missing and not understanding is that in order for community police officers to fight crime and keep community safe, they have to have a relationship with the community. You can't go into a community where no one will talk to you and think that you're going to be able to solve crime. And that's why in a lot of cases throughout this country. You have struggles with getting information from citizens because their relationship is so frayed. It’s because of all the history, especially around race and ethnicity when it comes to American police department Baltimore New York Chicago. And if this president doesn't understand that it shouldn't be surprising to anyone because he clearly has been tone deaf on anything that's related to civil rights for everyone.

CO: We will leave it there. We will be following this story Counselor Scott. Thank you.

BS: Thank you.

JD: Brandon Scott is a Baltimore City councillor, and chair of that city's public safety committee. We reached him in Baltimore Maryland.

[Music: Piano is sad]

Lie flat study

JD: It's no secret you can make a lot of money if you're willing to lie. And certainly, if you consider yourself a stand up kind of person, this job is not for you. That's a little misleading. Even though you will be flat-out lying all the time, telling untruths is not a stipulation of this particular position. Remaining in a particular position is — that is, lying down in a bed for two months straight. For this the successful candidates will be handsomely compensated to the tune of 16,000 euros or about 23,000 Canadian dollars. The goal of all this lying is to reveal the truth about the effects of weightlessness on healthy human bodies. It is part of a study conducted at the Institute for Space Medicine and Physiology near Toulouse, France. Researchers there are seeking 24 men, between the ages of 20 and 45, who do not smoke, who have no allergies and with a body mass index between 22 and 27. In short, healthy young males, who will be put through a barrage of tests before being invited to tuck into bed for a total of 60 days after which they will undergo further testing to determine the effects of extended bed rest on their physiology. As the experiment coordinator Dr. Arnaud Beck explains quote, “The idea is to reproduce the weightlessness of the International Space Station.” Now, if being paid thousands of dollars to lie down for two months sounds too good to be true that's because it is. I don't mean it's not true. It is true. It's just not that good. Dr. Beck cautions it is not nearly as easy as it sounds. The subjects will be required to perform all their routine bodily functions while remaining fully prostrate. He says quote, “The rule is to keep at least one shoulder in contact with the bed or its frame.” So if you're a guy who's skilled at lying, but you also enjoy thinking on your feet, you will need to look for another line of work like say… White House Press Secretary.

[Music: Electronic]

Ikutaro Kakehashi obit

Guest: Alexander Dunn

JD: The Roland TR-808 drum machine, which was more commonly known simply as the “808”. The device was released in 1980, and at the time, it was a huge commercial flop. The drum sounds it created didn't sound anything like real drums, but the machine was programmable. Meaning that people could create their own custom beats without needing a drum kit and for that reason, the “808” became hugely influential. And eventually ubiquitous in early hip hop and electronic music. And since then, it has also been used by artists like Marvin Gaye, The Beastie Boys, Whitney Houston, Phil Collins and Kanye West. Vintage “808’s” still sell for upwards of $4,000 online. Ikutraro Kakehashi was the inventor of the “808”, along with many other electronic instruments. He died over the weekend. He was 87-years-old. Alexander Dunn is the director of the documentary film “808”, which came out last year. We reached Mr. Dunn in London.

CO: Alexander, how would you describe Ikutraro Kakehashi’s contribution to music?

ALEXANDER DUNN: Well, I think just looking at the “808’s” you can see how a machine that he made a drum machine that he made and developed his company just influenced the world of music so, so heavily. Electronic music, hip hop and dance music you know it just would have been completely different without that machine and another machines that he made — the “909” and, of course, the “303” and various synthesizers that he was involved as well and his company continues to make today.

CO: It's all very technical for anyone listening because an “808” drum machine means nothing to anybody until they're listening to… we just played a bit of “Brass Monkey” by The Beastie Boys. But if you've heard as we reviewing all the way the places where the drum machine is used or the synthesizers use the Marvin Gaye’s “Sexual Healing” or “One More Night” by Phil Collins people would then say oh yeah, that sounds so. But it’s such a varied sound isn't it?

AD: Well, I think that's the funny thing with the “808”. I mean it's the sound is very much renowned within hip hop and it was something that was one of the building blocks of early hip hop certainly in New York and was a lot of people working out there such as The Beastie Boys and Rick Rubin, LL Cool J and Africa Bambatha. You know there was a lot of records coming out with the “808” and I think that you know that was a really huge thing. But then, obviously, it kind of spread really across the world and into different genres kind of almost by accident in some places and by design and others. Miami bass in Miami is a very unique sort of movement that was all about the bass of the “808”, which I guess just to put that into context, is one of the things about the “808” drum machine. Is it didn't really sound like drums. So that was something really unique and interesting about it. And the kick drum was very, very deep and low and resonant. You know it was really really loud in a club or on a big system. And I think then it came through and people just wanted that big, loud sound. And, as I say in Miami for example, the Miami bass movement was all about how they could get it as heavy and as deep and as loud and as bass-y as possible.

CO: Well, then do you think that these music movements like that were even possible had it not been for that kind of percussion they could get with this tool?

AD: Well, it's hard to say. I mean I wouldn't like to say that they weren't possible or that they wouldn't have happened, but they would certainly sound different and I think the world would sound different without the machines.

CO: Now did Mr. Kakehashi did he set out to do that? Did he know he had something successful on his hands as soon as he created the machine?

AD: It's difficult to tell really. I think with the “808” one of the primary reasons when they made it was that it was it was meant to be something that was used perhaps in the studios of writing tool. But, as it turns out, not many people really used it for that. And it was more about the people who kind of grasped hold of it and found an accessible piece of kit that opened doors that perhaps weren't available to them.

CO: Was it a commercial success? Did Mr. Kakehashi immediately have something successful in his hands when he did it?

AD: The “808” wasn't really a commercial success. It was fairly limited in its run. So I think it was around 12,000 units were made, which is you know worldwide that's quite low. And it was discontinued fairly quickly after it was launched. I guess what's really amazing the “808” and similarly with things like the “909” and other drum machines he made is the fact that the sounds lived on outside of the machines.

CO: Now you never got to meet Mr. Kakehashi making your film “808”. But do you know what he was like as a person?

AD: Well, the people that did meet him said he was the he were amazing and a fantastic person. Arthur Baker, who was one of the producers on the film along with some guys of the crew went there and they had a fantastic time meeting him and they just said he was full of life and just extraordinary human being. It seemed like there's something special about him I guess is kind of what they came back with. You know they were glowing when they came back. It was a very exciting experience I think for them.

CO: Just before we let you go is there any particular song or track that you think really embraces the “808”?

AD: There's an awful lot. I probably give you something I really like. I mean I quite like old hip hop from around that time so L.L. Cool J. “Jack the Ripper” is quite a good example of that.

CO: All right. We're going to dig something out to play to give people a sample of the “808”. But Alexander, thank you.

AD: Fantastic. No problem at all.

CO: Bye bye.

AD: Bye bye.

JD: Alexander Dunn is the director of the documentary film “808”. We reached him in London.

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April 4, 2017 episode transcript

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