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The AIH Transcript for October 16, 2018

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello, I'm Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening. I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight…

CO: Inside pitch. Ottawa says it's ending solitary confinement in federal prisons. But after looking at the proposal the head of the John Howard Society says she's not sure it will really improve prisoners lives

JD: Sights unseen. A volunteer rescuer in Florida says people on the margins of society are suffering the most after Hurricane Michael — their trailers destroyed their access to aid limited.

CO: Dead silence. More than a week after allegations that Saudi assassins murdered Jamal Khashoggi, U.S. President Trump says the Crown Prince doesn't know what happened and the prince himself is saying nothing.

JD: His final answers. In his last book the late Stephen Hawking responds to questions he was asked during his life — addressing trivial matters like: Is there a God?

CO: When you wish upon all stars. The creators of an all-star studded new musical hope audiences will be all-star struck by the fact that every song in it is All Star by Smash Mouth.

JD: And…Spliff competition. Just after midnight a small cannabis store in Newfoundland — kind of a mom and pot shop — plans to be the first to sell legal weed in Canada before the big guys roll up. As It Happens: The Tuesday Edition. Radio that knows you gotta get up pretty early to catch red eye.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Solitary confinement bill, Khashoggi: latest, Marijuana: Newfoundland seller

Solitary confinement bill

Guest: Catherine Latimer

JD: In Ottawa today, the Minister of Public Safety announced that he is ending solitary confinement in federal prisons. Ralph Goodale is making that move in response to a series of high-profile cases including the death of Ashley Smith. And then there is the B.C. judge who ruled earlier this year that keeping prisoners locked up alone for 22 hours or more a day is a violation of their constitutional rights. Under the legislation introduced today, inmates would be presented with what is being called the ‘opportunity’ to leave their cells for four hours each day. Reporters asked whether that is just solitary confinement by another name. Here's what Minister Goodale had to say.

SOUNDCLIP

RALPH GOODALE: It is not. It is a fundamentally different approach. If you go to the definition of what the United Nations would call administrative segregation or solitary confinement, it's those two hours that are the key threshold. When you're able to provide more than that, as we are going to be doing under this new system, with the proper kind of interventions, this will lead to the accomplishment of two objectives: keeping the institutions and the people in those institutions, including the staff, safe and secure. But at the same time being able to continue the programming that will have the impact of contributing to the long term rehabilitation of prisoners. So the key question is: Are they going to be released in a condition where they have some prospect of leading a law-abiding life? Or are you just going to leave them in a condition where they will undoubtedly re-offend again and there'll be more victims and there'll be less safe communities.

JD: Ralph Goodale, Minister of Public Safety, speaking to reporters in Ottawa earlier today. Catherine Latimer is the executive director of the John Howard Society, which has been challenging the constitutionality of solitary confinement in court. We reached Ms. Latimer in Ottawa.

CO: Ms. Latimer, we just heard Minister Goodale here says this is the end of solitary confinement in federal Canadian prisons. What do you think?

CATHERINE LATIMER: Well, you know, I really hope Minister Goodale is correct in terms of this being a significantly different regime than what we had seen under administrative segregation but I have my doubts. I have my doubts about how this will be put into place.

CO: He says that the key to making this not the same thing is the amount of time that the inmate would be able to be outside of that confinement. And so the two hours is considered by the United Nations to be not enough and that's the key threshold that had to get passed and so that they're doubling that. So four hours would be the amount of time that they would be able to be out of their cells and so able to get the mental health services and the other services they need. What do you make of that?

CL: I think if you look at the actual wording of the bill it said they would be given an opportunity for four hours a day out of the cell. What I find, having interviewed and talked to a lot of people who are spending time in administrative segregation, they're now given the opportunity to spend one or two hours out of the cell and this opportunity is often presented to them at like 5:00 or 6:00 in the morning when it's still cold and they decline. Or it's abrogated for another reason and these opportunities don't actually arise. So even with those two hours being able to be out of the cell it's not actually taking place. I think it's going to be very challenging for them to find four hours a day for each of these people who were previously in administrative segregation to be out of their cells participating in constructive activities.

CO: So it doesn't have to be four consecutive hours it could be an hour here, half-an-hour there, five minutes over here. So four hours a day could be what in the middle of the night?

CL: Could be. I mean, when I went to one administrative segregation unit they were telling me that people were now able to spend two hours a day in the yard. I asked how many prisoners they had an administrative segregation. They said 17. So if each prisoner gets two hours in the yard there's not enough hours in the day for each of them to have access to it.

CO: The other thing that's key to this is where this confinement will happen. These are people that will be removed from the regular inmate population but not put in what they call the SHU, which is Hecurity Housing Units, it’s going to be something called Structured Intervention Units. What does that mean?

CL: Very good question to try and figure out what it means. It looks like they will take the existing administrative segregation unit and designate them as structured intervention units. So the physical layout, the infrastructure, I think, would look very similar to what it looks like now and the only significant difference you'll see is this opportunity for more than four hours out of the cell. So other things that were extremely important in terms of safeguarding against some of the harms of administrative segregation, for example, that there be a limit on the number of days that you could spend in such isolation in restrictive units, that's not included in the bill. There is no independent adjudication that would look at the grounds by which you were placed in this administrative segregation unit or special structure intervention unit to determine whether those were valid or to determine whether it continues to be necessary. Everything is left in at the discretion of Correctional Services of Canada.

CO: But that's key to what this is supposed to do, right? I mean, one of the things that with everything we've been hearing about solitary confinement is the amount of time that people spend there and they're people, quite often, with mental illness issues and they’re disruptive because they can't cope with where they are. We know the story of Edward Snowshoe, this 22-year-old man who took his own life at the Edmonton institution. We know what happened to Ashley Smith after being bounced around, this 19-year-old who was in segregation over and over again until she died of a self-inflicted choking, which was called a homicide. We know what happened to them and to countless others so is that going to be any different? That length of time that people spend in this what was been called by the United Nations and by the courts has been cruel and unusual. Is that going to end with this new policy?

CL: I think that's the big question. I think there is a real possibility that de facto we could end up with many of the harms that people are experiencing around administrative segregation being perpetuated under this new regime of the structured intervention units. Just there's not enough oversight. Everything is left in the hands of Correctional Services of Canada and some of the things that they're proposing as safeguards were already there. Like a healthcare person being required to come around every day, that was a requirement at the time of Eddie Snowshoe’s as well. It isn't adequate. So I would hope that this would be a major change and that the four hours out of the cell a day is actually four hours being put to constructive use. But it causes me great concern that we're going to end up with some of the harms that we've experienced with administrative segregation being perpetuated in this regime.

CO: Like with Mr. Snowshoe who spent five months in segregation?

CL: Right. And he — if you look at the transcripts of his fatality inquiry — he stopped coming out of his cell. He stopped coming out of his cell even to shower. So this notion that people would decline to come out of the cell is a very serious indication of possible deteriorating mental health. So it's tricky, it's very tricky. This opportunity to be out of the cell is has me very worried.

CO: All right. We'll be following this. Ms. Latimer, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

CL: My pleasure. Thank you, Carol. Catherine Latimer is the executive director of the John Howard Society. We reached her in Ottawa.

[Music: Ambient Tones]

Khashoggi: latest

Guest: Steve Clemons

CO: The heat on Saudi Arabia to explain what happened to Jamal Khashoggi has reached a boiling point. Numerous media outlets have reported that the Saudis are planning to admit the journalist was indeed killed after walking into the Saudi consulate in Istanbul two weeks ago, and that he died after a botched interrogation. As of airtime that admission still has not occurred. On Twitter, The U.S. president said that the Saudi Crown Prince still claims he doesn't know what happened to Mr. Khashoggi inside the consulate. Steve Clemons is an editor-at-large at The Atlantic, and he was a friend of Mr. Khashoggi’s. We reached him in Washington, D.C.

CO: Steve, if we are to believe Donald Trump's tweet this afternoon the Saudi crown prince still claims he does not know what happened inside the Saudi consulate when Jamal Khashoggi disappeared. What do you make of those denials?

STEVE CLEMONS: I think Mohammad bin Salman realizes that inside the kingdom he is fighting for his political future and that a revelation that whether this was framed as a rogue element that took out Jamal Khashoggi or he had himself under his direction, that if any of that got out it fuels his many enemies inside the kingdom. And so what we see is, in my view, and it is partly speculative but we see it in the behaviour of our president is a complicity in helping the Crown Prince survive this political challenge over this absolutely horrific situation in the alleged killing of Jamal Khashoggi.

CO: You just mentioned there are rogue agents which is something that Donald Trump has been floating. He says that comes from the king that perhaps there were does rogue elements that got in there and did something we don't know. We're trying to find out, we're trying to get to the bottom of it. So what do you make of — you’re saying that Donald Trump is sort of playing this for the Saudi Crown Prince?

SC: Look, I think Donald Trump has, with those that he has invested in like Vladimir Putin, Mohammad bin Salman, he and Jared Kushner, they have now constructed a relationship and a bond between the United States and Saudi Arabia that they're trying to preserve amidst this horrific act. The wild card in this is Erdogan and Turkey, and what has happened throughout this incident from the very beginning we have watched Turkish intelligence slowly leak out bit, by bit, by bit to further embarrass and to essentially demonstrate what falsehoods the Saudis have been saying.

CO: I want to go through some of these theories because what you're saying is there’s confusion about what story they're going to finally come up with and stick with. So we have tweets from media reports that the Saudis were planning to admit they killed Khashoggi in an interrogation that went bad. And so what happened to that theory?

SC: I don't know. We don't know what happened to it. Every leading paper in and journal of opinion had been given the same tip-off that that the Saudis were on the edge of doing that right before my Mike Pompeo’s trip. And we don't know whether Donald Trump told him not to do that, which he may have said he believes if you ever admit anything then their cards to fall so deny, deny, deny. And we don't know if this is a Trump-led issue or whether Mohammad bin Salman himself — and I think this is a more likely explanation — feels under so much pressure among his royal cousins and within the royal court that if he is attached to this, rogue operation or not rogue operation, his days are numbered in that role.

CO: Okay, the other element, as you mentioned, is the Turkish officials and what they're putting out. So you’ve got the possibility that Donald Trump and the Crown Prince and the King are trying to work out what the story is going to be. But meanwhile, the Turkish officials are not just giving these other bits of information but actually coming up with photos and evidence, you mentioned the 15 Saudi operatives who flew into Istanbul on the day that Jamal Khashoggi disappeared. And one of them apparently an autopsy expert with a bone saw. So what does that do to either the rogue agent theory or the botched interrogation theory?

SC: It makes it all charade, it makes what we've seen — you know, everyone who looks at this has an understanding of what likely occurred. It doesn't matter if you're Senator Lindsey Graham, Senator Bob Corker, Senator Marco Rubio — all Republicans, all think Jamal Khashoggi was murdered. Yet again, the one single person not coming to that conclusion is the President of the United States Donald Trump.

CO: Has it come to that point where it doesn't matter? We know they're lying, they're saying these things, we know it's not true, and it doesn't matter that they're lying, it doesn't matter we're just going to at some point accept this is what is going to be the truth even though everyone knows it's not, and Donald Trump and the Crown Prince and the King just hope the world loses interest?

SC: I think that is a gamble that they may be taking. And I think it would be a mistake on their part. I think it's very hard to imagine that Mohammad bin Salman will ever get an interview with any other global mainstream journalist and this not be the anchor of that interview where they start. You know, my own magazine The Atlantic, Jeff Goldberg our editor-in-chief had a very wide-ranging interview with Mohammad bin Salman when he visited the United States and Washington recently. I can't imagine him ever having that opportunity again without being directly challenged about what the Saudis allegedly did against Jamal Khashoggi and having this part of it. And that's the future that they're going to have if they think that they can try to exhaust the world with this and turn away and act as if nothing had happened.

CO: Just finally, because Jamal Khashoggi was your friend, did he ever say that he suspected he was in this kind of danger?

SC: Jamal Khashoggi, I've known him for a very long time. I can't speak for him now, of course, anymore. I don't think that he ever conveyed that he thought his life was in danger. The story that we don't know and don't see is that there is grief inside Saudi Arabia. There is frustration inside the royal court. There is anger around Mohammad bin Salman that he put them in this position because they actually liked and admired and respected much of what Jamal was doing even as he was criticizing their government on occasion. But I think Jamal knew and had reached a point where he felt the pressure points were so severe. I never had a talk with him about whether he felt unsafe but I think he realized he needed to begin taking precautions.

CO: All right. We’ll leave it there. Steve, and, of course, we’ll be following this story. I appreciate you talking to us. Thank you.

SC: Thank you very much.

JD: Steve Clemons is an editor-at-large at The Atlantic. He was a friend of Jamal Khashoggi. We reached him in Washington, D.C. earlier today.

[Music: Ambient Tones]

Marijuana: Newfoundland seller

Guest: Thomas H. Clarke

JD: Who will be the first to sell legal weed in Canada? Well, Newfoundland, of course, has the privilege and the advantage of being a half-hour ahead of the rest of the country. And pot retailers in that province are jostling for bragging rights to be the first ever legal seller of cannabis. The corporate marijuana giant Canopy Growth is already boasting that one of its outlets will be the first but it has some fierce competition in Thomas H. Clarke. He heads T.H.C. Distribution, a local cannabis shop outside St. John's. We reach Mr. Clarke in Portugal Cove.

CO: Thomas, when are you hoping to make your first legal marijuana sale?

THOMAS H CLARKE: Well, I'm going to make my first legal marijuana sale at 12:01 Newfoundland time and the sale is going to be to my father. And I couldn't be happier about him being my first customer and also being the first independent cannabis retailer in the whole country to do a sale tonight.

CO: But, I mean, people will be lining up to buy pot from you right away. How do you know your dad's going to be first in line?

THC: Well, I'm going to have him in the shop already. It’s all ben pre-arranged. My father is going to be my first customer and then just three days ago I met a lady who lives just around the corner from my shop and she has multiple sclerosis and she came here to visit to say thank you. And I told her that this is not just my shop. This shop has been put here for you. And her and I had a cry and a hug, I’m so happy that I can finally do this. I don't have to worry about getting arrested now if you follow the letter of the law and do this legally and people will get better service because of it.

CO: You have been arrested in the past haven't you?

THC: Yes, I got arrested when I was 18 years old for selling two ounces of hashish to a friend who then got caught with it and told on me and I went to jail just based on his statements basically.

CO: How long have you been in the pot business?

THC: Well, I've been in the pot business I can remember the first time I sold pot to someone I was in grade 8 and I dabbled in it over the years off and on all throughout my entire life. The last couple of years I've been staying away from home because of my business plans and ambitions and I can't wait to sell weed tonight.

[LAUGHTER]

CO: Why is it important to you to have the first legal cannabis sale in Canada?

THC: Well, you know, some people and argue that and tell you that the Tweed store is a little bit east of me, but the Tweed store is a huge corporation and their first sale is going to be to the CEO of their company. I'm a little guy, I've been part of the cannabis culture and community and have been from coast to coast for 30 years. So I feel that it's a win for me and for the cannabis culture and people who are involved with cannabis because I'm the small guy and I had big dreams and they're coming true.

CO: You mentioned Tweed, which is a huge corporation, isn't it? Canopy Growth, and they say they're going to have the first sale, they've got a big event planned around that and they're going to scoop you on this one.

THC: Well, you know, I know that the people in newfoundland would way rather go to a little independent shop that I'm at than go to the big corporate store. I'm the first independent operator, I own this business a hundred percent. You know, I put my blood, sweat and tears into this. I'm a local, I'm an expert. I think that Newfoundlanders will show how patriotic they are by coming to my store.

CO: And how knowledgeable are you of your product?

THC: Oh, I'm pretty knowledgeable. There's just not a strain that can fool me. I could tell you more about cannabis by having a sniff of it than most people could by smoking it.

CO: Because you've been in the business for so long?

THC: Yes, for sure. And I've been attending expos for years and I've been trying different strains and I've been a grower. I'm an enthusiast but It's not about me. This is a win for everyone. Anyone who uses cannabis should celebrate tonight. It's the biggest public policy shift in my time, Carol.

CO: Is there a local Portugal Cove strain that you'll be selling? Do you have any home-grown?

THC: No, I'm not allowed to sell anything that's not approved by Health Canada and from a licensed producer and I'm going to stick to the letter of the law on that. Now, I have some great ideas that I'm trying to get licensed producers to come on board with me about. I have a trademark called The Wild Newfoundland Blueberry Cannabis Company and I want to grow of different strains of blueberry cannabis that we use iceberg water to feed. So you could have wild new for my blueberry cannabis growing with the oldest freshest iceberg water in the world. I could sell that to everyone in the world and I just need some company who's interested in going into business with me.

CO: You do have big weed dreams don't you?

THC: I do, Carol. I want to start a tour bus that picks up people at hotels and the cruise ships and it's called The 420 Tour Bus that would come down to my shop take you on a little tour of Portugal Cove, maybe get a fish and chips, get your weed, stop at the bakery and get some home baked goods and then you're back to the hotel, you know?

CO: And then you can get high?

THC: And you can get high.

CO: How many customers do you think you'll have out at midnight tonight trying to be the first pot purchasers?

THC: Oh, I think there will be quite a few. I’ve got a lot of friends. If I've been dabbling in the industry for over 30 years you can imagine how many loyal friends I have. The one problem I'm going to have, Carol, is I probably won't have enough product to satisfy everyone. I feel like I'm going to run out of grass on Thursday.

CO: Do you think that legalization day should be a national holiday?

THC: October 17th could be a national holiday for sure because not only is it the legalization day, it's also the anniversary of Gord Downie’s death. So you put all that together, it sounds like a national holiday to me, Carol.

CO: Sounds like a true Canadian day.

THC: Yes indeed.

CO: Thomas, just one last question. You’re Thomas H. Clarke, what does the ‘H’ stand for?

THC: The ‘H’ stands for herd. My friends have been calling me THC for years.

[LAUGHTER]

CO: I love it. Thomas, best of luck on legalization day. Thanks for talking to us.

THC: Thanks, Carol. It's been an honour to speak to you.

CO: Thank you.

JD: That was Thomas Herb Clarke from THC Distribution. We reached Portugal Cove, Newfoundland. Head to our website for more on this story: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Waltz]

Pierre Berton: How to roll a joint

JD: 14 years ago best-selling author, TV host, journalist and companion of the Order of Canada, Pierre Berton passed away. But we imagine that were he around today, he would be thrilled to hear what midnight tonight brings. Mr. Berton was knowledgeable about many, many, many things. And one gem of wisdom he was particularly happy to share was how to roll the perfect joint. Here he is on CBC’s Rick Mercer Report in October 2004.

SOUNDCLIP

PIERRE BERTON: Looking back on my career, you know, I cannot count the number of times a young man or young woman has come up to me and said ‘Hey Mr. Berton what's the best way to roll a joint?’

[LAUGHTER]

PB: And let me tell you, it's not that way. Put that down, start over. First of all, you need a good rolling surface, may I suggest either The National Dream or Prisoners of the North. Avoiding novelty or coloured paper, I prefer white paper to add to your mix and being in Ontario, we always use hydroponic. Be sure remove any twigs and seeds. Now the way you distribute the mix will determine the shape of your joint. I prefer the classic cone-shaped joint, what the young people call a coner. Now for the tricky bit. Pick everything up, start in the middle, roll outwards and let your thumbs do most of the work. When you have an even consistency wrap the excess paper around the joint, wet the paper, and seal the joint. Excellent. Firm, but not too firm. Just the way I like it. And remember Canada, it's the loose joints that tend to fall apart, leaving unsightly toke burns on your chairs or on your bow tie. It’s a tragedy we all want to avoid, don't we? I’m Pierre Berton, and that's how to roll a joint.

JD: Canadian author, broadcaster and cannibus connoisseur Pierre Berton on the CBC’s Rick Mercer Report back in October of 2004. Mr. Berton passed away only a month later. And if you were at a loss as to the best way to roll a joint, the New Brunswick government's new cannibus agency has published a handy how-to on its website. If it helps to feel a little less awkward reading joint rolling tips issued by a provincial government, try reading it in Pierre Berton’s voice.

Part 2: Hurricane Michael: volunteer, Hawking predictions

Hurricane Michael: volunteer

Guest: Ann Hinsey

JD: Power is still out, water is still not running and hundreds of people are still unaccounted for. That is the state of affairs in the areas hit hardest by Hurricane Michael. And as officials are fanning out across the state of Florida, so are volunteers like Anne Hinsey. Ms. Hinsey has been coordinating with a group called Crowdsource Rescue to distribute food and water around Panama City and check in on those whose families have not been able to reach them. We reached and Anne Hinsey in Niceville, Florida.

CO: Ann, how are people you've been volunteering with in and around Panama City, how are they coping with the aftermath of Hurricane Michael?

ANN HINSEY: Well, some of the people that we're seeing I think they're just doing the best they can. We have one community, actually it's just one street, that we've been working on where it's just all trailer park. And when you drive down the road you might see one trailer and then the next three are just piles of rubble. The ones that have lost their homes are either living in abandoned trailers or they are staying with other people whose trailers are still standing. But even the ones that are standing have severe damage.

CO: I can’t imagine from the stories we've had reports of what it was like with those winds and were like people living in trailers, it must have been terrifying. How many people actually stayed in their homes during the hurricane?

AH: I have not seen an official account for the area that we're working in, but on the street that we were on most people stayed.

CO: Did they get the notice? Were they told, did they get the information about the evacuation where they were told they must evacuate for the sake of their lives?

AH: Well, in the state of Florida they can call for an evacuation but they can't physically go and make people leave. So some of them knew that a storm was coming, some of them had no resources to leave. Either they didn't have a vehicle, they didn't have money to buy gas in their vehicle or they just didn't have anywhere to go. Now they could have gone to shelters if they had a way to get there. But there was nobody driving up and down the street with a bus collecting people and asking them if they wanted to go to shelters. And the other issue is that a lot of these people have animals. You know, that's one of the things that is a big reason that people don't leave. Our shelters don't all take animals, and they certainly aren't going to take someone who's got five dogs and six cats.

CO: And so people, even if they knew, they didn't have many options.

AH: Right. And there were people who didn't. We found a couple living under a tarp who said that they had no clue that there was even a storm coming and that just blew my mind. But they said they haven't had a cell phone since July and they just didn't know. They said they didn't know until it hit.

CO: So many people are on the margins just so close to the edge and something like this just wipes them out.

AH: Yes. I can't imagine how many people have lost their homes. People who are poor lost their homes and people who are rich lost their homes. But unfortunately, it’s those people who are living on the margins and those people who are already in the cracks that aren't probably going to get the help that they need. They don't have insurance, they rented trailers and they didn't have renter's insurance — and even if they did they probably don't have the money to pay a deductible.

CO: How are they living, the ones you encountered? What do they have in the way of supplies?

AH: Well they kind of vary. It seems like most people have some water. We gave out a lot of food. There's a lot of like comradery going on, but unfortunately in some of these areas where you're dealing with people who are living kind of on the outskirts, a lot of these people are drug addicted, to be honest. We kept hearing from them ‘I need to get my pain pills’ or ‘I need my patch,’ or ‘I need my fentanyl patches.’ So not only are they dealing with losing their home but a lot of them are going through withdrawal and so they're in emotional pain but now they're in physical pain as well.

CO: If you and the other volunteers were doing this are there any people, are there any of the facilities that are now moving into the larger centers, is any of that going to these communities, these outskirts?

AH: I have not seen official people going door-to-door like we've been doing. They ask us, Is FEMA coming? Is the Red Cross coming? Is someone going to come and help us?’ And then they're also crying. We feel overwhelmed because we know that there are so many people out there hurting and needing help and we feel inadequate because we're only — it's just me and my husband Michael when we go out. And there are other people doing what we're doing and our local people are starting to mobilize more. We were told not to come.

CO: By whom? Who told you not to come?

AH: By the official government agency, by the county. ‘Don't come.’ They were turning people away the day after the hurricane.

CO: Why? Why were they turning them away?

AH: I don't know. Because they were thinking that they needed to maintain control over everything. But it's so big they have to let civilians in. They told people ‘If you want to help go register with volunteer Florida.’ I did that the day of the hurricane. I got an e-mail yesterday saying ‘Hey, thanks for volunteering. We're still getting organized. It takes some time to get things in place. So don't worry you'll be hearing from us.’ And I wrote them back then I said ‘This is ridiculous. While you're getting organized I’ll be out out knocking door-to-door.’

CO: You said you and your husband were doing this but you've encountered other volunteers. What are they telling you?

AH: Everybody's feeling overwhelmed at what they're seeing. My neighbour across the street has family in Cottondale and I said ‘Are they getting any help?’ And she said, I mean she was using expletives, but she said ‘When I mean they don't have crap. I mean they don't have anything coming in. It's all neighbours helping neighbours.’ That's what she says.

CO: It's just so frustrating to hear all of this, Anne. I'm glad you and your husband are there and I hope you get some support for what you're doing.

AH: I mean, we're being supported by our friends here in town. After we went the first time I posted on Facebook that we needed these things, I made lists, and the next day one of my friends dropped off a brand new chainsaw and extra chain for it, and we had sodas, and we had food, and we had toiletry items to handout for hygiene kits, we had deodorant and baby wipes and we went back to that area that we went the very first ticket we pulled, and the whole reason we went back there first was because there was a woman in a first trailer we went to whose son I called the night we got back the first time to tell him, she gave me his phone number and I called him, to tell him that she was okay and he started crying because up until that moment he didn't know if she was alive. And I went back to tell her that her son was coming to get her.

CO: Ann, thank you so much.

AH: You're welcome.

JD: Ann Hinsey is a volunteer with Crowdsource Rescue. We reached her in Niceville, Florida.

[Music: Ambient Bass]

Geir Haarde charges

JD: Ten years ago Iceland went from being a hub of global finance to watching it all fall apart overnight. In October of 2008 Iceland's three leading banks collapsed after defaulting on billions of dollars in foreign debt. The value of the Icelandic krona plummeted. The stock market took a deep dive — and almost every business went bankrupt. Iceland's courts doggedly pursued those responsible for the crash, and last week marked the final prosecution of a former bank CEO. Now one of those caught up in the prosecutions was Iceland's former Prime Minister Geir Haarde. As It Happens spoke with Mr. Haarde in September of 2010 after Iceland's parliament had recommended criminal charges against him. Carol asked him how he felt about that.

SOUNDCLIP

GEIR HAARDE: I think they are politically motivated and I think some of my old political opponents are settling political scores by criminalizing the political process. And I think that's a very sad development that is going to show us a bad precedent in the future of Icelandic politics. Of course, the banking crisis was a very serious matter. I think no one is more aware of that than myself. But the reasons for the crisis were not political, they were largely mistakes made in the banking system itself. Partly the result of outside developments, but it was a complicated set of issues in September-October 2008 we would have this horrific crisis.

CO: But you’re no longer in politics, so what's to be gained by people in Parliament voting to see you before this court?

GH: Well, that is a very good question. I asked myself that same question. It's a criminal charge that's been brought against me.

CO: What are the charges?

GH: Several different counts of negligence. But I have not been questioned questioned, there has not been a criminal investigation. My points of view have not been brought forward.

CO: But you are looking at what's been called the banking collapse in economic history, it happened on your watch. How should you be held to account for that?

GH: Well, I have accepted my political responsibility by leaving politics.

CO: But it was on your watch that those banks accumulated external debt that was many times the gross domestic product of your country was. I mean, that didn't happen overnight to acquire 50 bilion euros in debt.

GH: It was completely in line with those European rules. Clearly this was unwise, something should have been done about it. We all realize that by now, but I don't think we could have averted the financial crisis. It had been brewing for a long time and the problem, of course, was that in the early months of of 2008 and throughout 2008 none of us saw this coming. And, as I remember, no world political leaders saw it either.

JD: That was Iceland's former Prime Minister Geir Haarde from an interview in 2010. Mr. Haarde was one of dozens in Iceland prosecuted for their involvement in the country's 2008 banking crisis. This month marks 10 years since the crash.

[Music: Ambient Tones]

Hawking predictions

Guest: Alice Gray

JD: It has been more than six months since famed physicist Stephen Hawking died. His work however, continues to resonate. And indeed, it continues to be published. Today, Dr. Hawking's final book was released. It is called Brief Answers to the Big Questions. Some of those questions: Is there a God? Should we colonize space? How do we shape the future? Alice Gray is a science writer and a blogger. She was at the book launch event in London. We reached her in Cardiff, Wales.

CO: Alice, I know two of Mr. Hawking’s children are at the book launch yesterday. What did they tell the crowd about what this book meant to them?

ALICE GRAY: It was a very emotional book launch because, obviously, we sadly lost Stephen Hawking earlier in the year. So they talked a lot about how he was greatly missed. During the book launch we were given the opportunity to hear some of the quotes from the book read out by Stephen himself. It was recorded before he passed away and it was an incredibly emotional thing to listen to especially for his children.

CO: And for you, how emotional was this for you?

AG: It was quite emotional. I'm not afraid to admit that I did cry at part of it where he was talking about the future, specifically talking about the difficulties we face in climates, both political and environmental. And one of the things I do as a science writer is trying to reach out to people, especially young audiences and especially young girls and try and inspire them to become scientists. And one of the parts that he read out during the book launch that was played, specifically said about inspiring the next generation and hopefully by doing so we can increase the chances of inspiring the new Einstein wherever she might be. And I just burst out crying, it just really hit me hard that one of the greatest minds of our time was just so aware of the importance of science education, but also diversity in science and making sure that the next discovery — we don't know where the next discovery is going to come from or who's going to discover it.

CO: And the next Einstein could very well be a woman.

AG: Exactly, exactly. And she might be a small girl at this point in time and we just need to inspire her to start asking questions like the ones answered in the book, you know. Can we achieve time travel? Can we populate space? We need to be able to light that fire in young children to be able to answer these huge questions of our time.

CO: I want to get some of those questions in a moment and how he answers them in this book. But just because it is a posthumously published book, did he actually finish with himself or how did this come about that this book should actually exist?

AG: So the book is essentially the response of his first book A Brief History of Time because, you know, his first book was so well written. As complex as the physics of black holes and the Big Bang are, it captured a lot of people's interest and therefore because he was such a great mind in history he drew questions to him and people wanted questions about time travel. Does God exist? And in his first book he talks about the universe and space and how there could be room for God. And so he was like a magnet for questions. He was like an oracle. People wanted him to answer their questions so this was kind of the response to that. He'd obviously had the same questions asked of him over and over again. And I suppose that's why he's written the book. So he started it before he died and then his family and his colleagues have helped to finish it.

CO: The book's title Brief Answers to Big Questions and some of the questions because you mentioned just now, he has been asked about the existence of God before and he has talked about God before. He answers the question, ‘Is there a God?’ What does he say?

AG: He talks about his own faith and whether he has faith and he says that he believes everyone should have the right to believe what they want to believe. But ultimately, the simplest explanation is that there's no God and that no one created the universe and no one directs our fate. He also has the profound realization that there is probably no heaven or afterlife either. One of the great things about this book, and I suppose it's highlighted in the title, is that it's brief answers. The book isn't that big at all. I think he's been able to answer quite a lot of questions in a fairly short space time.

CO: Okay, here's another one with her again another short answer: Should we, and can we, and will we colonize space?

AG: He says yes, which is very exciting. And he believes that it will happen fairly soon and is optimistic that we will ultimately create viable habitats for the human race on other planets.

CO: You mentioned that he talked about political matters as well and he doesn't shy away from that ever in science, does he? And one of the questions he deals with his is about super-humans and what our advances in genetics might yield in that area. What alarming warnings does he gave about that?

AG: He’s sure that during this century people would discover how to modify humans. And although he's sure that there will be laws passed against it to protect or legislate genetic engineering of humans, he believes that people won't be able to resist the temptation of trying to improve human characteristics. Whether that's increasing our memory, increasing our resistance to disease and things like that. And once these super humans appear they're going to be a major political problems facing the sort of ‘unimproved humans’ as he puts it. And presumably those people will die out or become unimportant, which is a very terrifying and very true problem, I suppose, considering a lot of the genetic technologies we're developing at the moment.

CO: Thank you so much, Alice, for telling us about this new book by Stephen Hawking.

AG: Thank you.

JD: We reached science writer Alice Gray in Cardiff.

[Music: Piano Ballad]

All Star play

JD: Somebody once told me, somebody once told me the world is going to roll me. I ain't the sharpest tool in the shed. And then he kept telling me that, then various other related things over and over again for 19 years — and counting. That somebody was Steve Harwell, lead singer of the band Smash Mouth, and he told me all this stuff through the song All Star, which came out in 1999. You may have heard it. It was everywhere when it first came out. Then it was everywhere when it was used in Shrek. And now it is everywhere in a new show — All Star: The Best Broadway Musical. The show, which just had its first public reading in New York, is a jukebox musical sort of like Mamma Mia or Jersey Boys except there's only one song in this juke box All Star by Smash Mouth. Different versions, of course, from standard to silly to sad — but all All Star. The story about a small-town gas clerk who auditions for a talent show and falls in love was partly generated from All Star, key pieces of dialogue including the repeated salutation ‘Hey now’ come directly from All Star. And regardless of whether you know any of the actors they are all part of an all-star cast. Writer and lead actor Allison Frasca is hoping investors will be interested in mounting her magnum opus. It is silly, of course, but it's also brilliant and fun — and as a wise man told me it didn't make sense not to live for fun, your brain gets smart but your head gets dumb. So here's hoping All Star: The Best Broadway Musical makes it to Broadway. It would throw a much needed wrench in the works. And as we all know the wrench is not the sharpest tool in the shed.

Part 3: Marijuana: Richard Hatfield trial, Nigerian CBSA death

Marijuana: Richard Hatfield trial

Guest: Michael Camp

JD: The government of New Brunswick is just hours away from entering into the legal marijuana business, just 24 years after the province had its own premier on trial for possession of the drug. The year was 1984, the Premier, Richard Hatfield — and it all began during a visit from the Queen. While searching premier Hatfield's luggage before he joined her Royal Highness for a flight on the royal plane, the RCMP found a tiny bag of the green stuff. The trial that followed made headlines around the world. Michael Camp was a friend of Richard Hatfield's at the time. He is now the chair of the journalism department at St. Thomas University. We reached Mr. Camp in Fredericton.

CO: Michael, how big a story was it at the time that Richard Hatfield was on trial for having possession of marijuana?

MICHAEL CAMP: Huge. It was like a stun grenade went off across the province — really across Canada. This was a major, major scandal.

CO: And how did the story get out? Because wasn't it originally the case that the RCMP found the drugs in the premier’s luggage and sort of kept it quiet. Why did they finally press charges?

MC: The story of how the drugs were discovered in the first place is interesting. It was during the visit of Queen Elizabeth to the province and they were going through luggage for security reasons. And one of the more junior officers went through one of Hatfield's bags and found a small quantity of marijuana in an outside pocket of a suitcase. Apparently an older RCMP officer who was there at the time said ‘Just put it back. This is a security screening were not fishing for contraband.’ But the younger officer felt very strongly about it and persisted in wanting charges to be laid or for there to be a next step. And I believe it was probably that person who drove the process forward — maybe, and this is a question mark — maybe by leaking it to a reporter.

CO: And so how was it handled by the media at that point?

MC: The first mention of it in the media was in the Daily Gleaner newspaper in Fredericton and it just says that a high profile New Brunswick politician is the object of an RCMP inquiry in to the discovery of a small quantity of narcotics. But at the time, given the kind of reputation that Hatfield already had, speculation fell to him almost right away. When he was actually confirmed as a suspect in the police inquiry, you know, it's getting to be history for me and I don't remember the actual date. But it moved from being a rumour to speculation to confirmation in a fairly short period of time, and the feeling was that someone in the RCMP was keeping someone in the media informed of this.

CO: The trial was a sensational one, wasn't it? First of all, the first judge was dismissed when he made these remarks that they have to treat Premier Hatfield differently, that he's not Joe Blow from Kokomo, he's not the town drunk, he has to be held to a higher standard and have a stiffer sentence so he was dismissed as the judge. And then another judge was in place for the two-day trial. Do you remember that trial?

MC: I remember the trial and I actually remember the interview, I might have even been in the station while the interview was being conducted. I think the first trial judge was Judge Harper and he was scheduled to hear the case. It's unusual for a judge to talk about an upcoming case, but he went on the CBC morning program in Fredericton to discuss how he's going to handle it in very general terms and he was trying not to reveal any kind of prejudice. But by saying that he felt more privileged people should be punished more severely, the defence team on Hatfield’s side was able to say ‘We're not going to get a fair hearing from this guy,’ so they brought up another judge, Judge Harrigan from Saint John to hear the case.

CO: Now not only did he dismiss it, but this judge said that he believed that the drugs were planted by a journalists. That was the suggestion, right?

MC: Yeah. Boy, what a ridiculous scenario. Poor old Pat Ryan.

CO: Pat Ryan was the reporter that was accused of, or suggested, that he was the one who had planted the drugs?

MC: That was the idea that I don't know why Pat Ryan came into the picture. I have no idea why Hatfield's defense team thought that he was the right person to raise suspicion over. But what they they're clearly trying to do was raise a reasonable doubt. To me it was an almost unbelievable scenario. I'm surprised that the defense team tried it but what was more surprising even then to people in New Brunswick, was that the judge fell for it.

CO: And did Richard Hatfield smoke dope?

[LAUGHTER]

MC: Of course he did. Whether he'd mug dope in New Brunswick I don't know. I never witnessed him smoking dope in New Brunswick, but he was a typical person of his time and I'm not going to make the argument he was a perfect person, but he was a very experimental kind of person. He liked to live on the edge a little bit. He had a very lively private life, liked to party. They called him ‘Disco Dick’ and all this kind of stuff. But he was not a serious drug user, certainly not a big marijuana smoker, he was a drinker. That was his drug of choice — alcohol. But I think he was truly bewildered by this. He either didn't remember, and it's possible that he did it and then forgot about it. But I got the sense that he honestly believed in his own mind that this specific pot was not his own.

CO: And he was about to go on a flight with the Queen for goodness sake. I mean, you’d think that you’d think twice before you did that.

MC: It's hard to believe that he thought that this would be a good idea to pack a little pot on the trip. I think what the pot trial did is change the perception of Richard Hatfield in the public mind so completely that whatever he might have accomplished in a positive sense is completely buried underneath a lot of allegations, proven, unproven, and some of the more serious allegations coming about after his death. So I personally find it hard to come to a conclusion about this because he never got a chance to respond to the allegations. But did he have people at his house late at night partying? No doubt, and probably it being in the 1980s, if someone stepped out and smoked a joint that wouldn't have surprised me. Now whether he was doing it himself, as I said, I never personally watched him.

CO: All these allegations about him and drugs and men and parties and everything eventually led into the 1987 election where his party, the PC party, was just wiped off the face of New Brunswick, wasn't it? I mean, they lost every seat, he lost his seat. It was one of the biggest defeats in Canadian political history.

MC: You couldn't lose any worse than he lost. He won four election campaigns, which is still a New Brunswick record. He was in power for 17 years, which is still a New Brunswick record. But everybody agrees it is final term, by the time he got to the 1980s, that he was a tired politician. And New Brunswick politics was always a little wild, on the edge. And I think that he would have been much wiser not to continue. And when the public turned against him, it turned against him completely. And from the point of view of history I think it's too bad that one: he didn't get to answer all the allegations that were eventually made against him, but also that we've forgotten that he's a person who made a very positive contribution to the Constitution.

CO: How do you think Richard Hatfield would think — what would he make of the fact that this province was so scandalized by his possible possession of drugs is going to be home to provincial marijuana stores?

MC: I think that there is a part of Richard that would have laughed at this. And I think that Hatfield felt the thin indifference of the law that we feel today, that it was a dumb idea to have the prohibition in the first place. And I think when he stopped laughing he would probably say ‘Finally we're being straight with ourselves.’

CO: All right, we'll leave it there. Michael, thank you.

MC: Okay, thank you.

JD: Michael Camp is the chair of journalism at St. Thomas University we reached him in Fredericton, New Brunswick. And as Michael mentioned the judge in Premier Hatfield's case did not convict him. Instead, they bought into the idea that a journalist by the name of Pat Ryan might have planted the dope in the Premier's bag. That was in January of 1985. And when As It Happens heard that they called Pat Ryan. Here is Bill Cameron, who was hosting at the time.

SOUNDCLIP

BILL CAMERON: Pat Ryan, did you put the dope in Premier Hatfield's suitcase?

PAT RYAN: Categorically not.

BC: What evidence was presented that you did this or that you could have done it?

PR: There was no evidence, just hearsay.

BC: What kind of hearsay?

PR: Every time an RCMP officer was on the stand through the trial the question was asked by Donald Gillis, the senior lawyer for the defendant, he repeatedly asked the question ‘Do you know Pat Ryan?’ And then it developed further so that when the evidence was presented with the partial fingerprint his last question was ‘Do you have Pat Ryan's fingerprints?’ He was asking the RCMP expert, the fingerprint expert. And from that he came to his summation. And in his summation he suggested that I would be the most likely possibility if someone did plant that dope.

BC: You have never been fingerprinted?

PR: That is correct.

BC: On what basis then did the defense lawyer build his theory that you put the dope in the bag?

PR: Only the defense lawyer could answer that.

BC: But the judge seems to have accepted it.

PR: That is correct.

BC: So what happens now?

PR: Well, I think we have to go back to square one. I'm willing to reveal my source. First of all, I don't know who the source is. The first indication was about 4:00p.m. on September 26th of last year. That was about 24 hours after the RCMP discovered marijuana. I was present in one of our nine bureaus in the Atlantic region in Moncton, when another staff member received an anonymous phone call from a female person, and she stressed the fact it wasn't a prank call and indicated that the RCMP had discovered marijuana in the Premier's luggage at the Fredericton airport and she suggested that that was the RCMP Superintendent George Vermette would be the person to call to check it out. Now it's unnatural to get anonymous phone calls and we did not over-respond at the time. Later that night Ihad an opportunity to talk to Superintendent Vermette at his Fredericton home and, frankly, took them a little bit by surprise. I told Vermette that it was my understanding that contraband had been discovered in the luggage to a senior New Brunswick politician, at no time through this thing that I ever mention Hatfield's name, I felt it was very improper at this point. And superintendent said ‘As I recall it. There is something to it. I don't know how much has been said or should be said.’

BC: They said, at least the judge said, that this would be a very juicy thing for the media to have. So what does he mean by that?

PR: I guess he would mean that it would give a big news story. There's a limited number of major news stories in any one day and on slack days I guess it would give us a big one.

JD: From January of 1985, that was reporter Pat Ryan in conversation with Bill Cameron on As It Happens. New Brunswick’s provincial cannabis stores will open tomorrow. We have more on all this on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Arpeggiated Tones]

Vancouver sea lion

JD: His name is Ukee. He is an adult male sea lion. Recently he was found on the shores of Vancouver Island with a gunshot wound to his head. Last week there was a large scale rescue to get Ukee to the Vancouver Aquarium. That is where he is now being treated. The aquarium says it is the second time in a year-and-a-half that it has admitted a sea lion with a gunshot wound. Head veterinarian Martin Haulena spoke to the CBC in Victoria about how Ukee could have survived the head injury.

SOUNDCLIP

MARTIN HAULENA: You know, I think that's probably one of the worst things about gunshots and shooting large animals like sea lions — the bullets don't kill. And that's what they do is cause an incredible amount of suffering. He is in such poor condition that that weight loss would have taken weeks, maybe a month. So he's done he's been suffering for quite some time.

ROBYN BURNS: Tell me about his rescue then? He's under the care of the Vancouver Aquarium currently. But what went into actually getting him onboard a boat?

MH: We did not get him on a boat, he was on the shore in Ucluelet. So we used a company — oh my gosh, I hope I get the name right — Windsor Crane in Ucluelet that volunteered up their folks and their equipment to help us crane him off to the beach and then on to our carrier and then forklift him to get them over to where we needed him. And without those guys it would have been nearly impossible. So it was…

RB: But by truck or?

MH: That’s right, yes. We transported him in one of our Vancouver Aquarium vehicles once he was loaded up and then use the ferry systems. The folks had to overnight in Nanaimo and they missed the last ferry just because it took so long to get to him and get him onto the truck. But yeah, that's exactly right, we used B.C. Ferries, who have been a great partner for us. We sent our veterenary fellow who is Dr. Megan Strobel. So she had him sedated for the move and then recovered him, again, he was in quite poor condition so we were able to administer a lot of fluids subcutaneously, start the antibiotics, start to anti-inflammatories as well, trauma was high on the suspect list right from the get go. So getting that rehydration and starting to get to the infections and also dealing with pain and inflammation — all that stuff was started immediately.

JD: Martin Haulena is the head veterinarian at the Vancouver Aquarium. That was part of his conversation yesterday with host Robyn Burns on CBC’s All Points West. Before we went to air tonight we called the aquarium. A staff member told us they were continuing Ukee's treatments and offering fish — although he still had no appetite. She said vet team will sedate him tomorrow and do an exam to try and diagnose the full extent of his injuries.

[Music: Oboes]

Nigerian CBSA death

Guest: Elias Munshya

JD: On August 7th Bolanle Alo reluctantly got on a plane in Calgary accompanied by two Canada Border Services Agency officers. He was to be deported from Canada to Nigeria — but he never made it. After an alleged altercation with the two officers and experiencing medical distress Mr. Alo died before the plane even took off. Since then, his family has been desperate for answers from the authorities who are investigating the death. And now, Mr. Alo’s widow is pleading for the return of his body so he can have a proper burial in Nigeria. Elias Munshya is the lawyer for Mr. Alo's family. We reached Mr. Munshya in Calgary.

CO: Mr. Munshya, I know you have been in touch with Mr. Alo's widow in Nigeria. How is she coping with what's happened to her husband and his body?

ELIAS MUNSHYA: It is devastating. This is not the best of news that she can ever receive. And so she has been very, very devastated. She feels extremely sad and is in mourning.

CO: And that this does interfere with how people in Nigeria honour the dead. The funeral rites are being abandoned because of not being able to have her husband's body for burial. Is that right?

EM: Yes. The funeral starts from the time that a person dies and it stays on until a few days or weeks after they are buried.

CO: But they have to be buried and to be buried you have to have a body.

EM: Exactly. So that is what is happening currently and so she cannot have closure. She cannot get out of our house until she buries her departed loved one.

CO: Why is it that Canada hasn't returned Mr. Alo’s body to the family?

EM: Actually, contrary to that assertion, Carol, Canada has released the body. The only issue that we have at the moment is that the Nigerian authorities must issue a waiver to receive the body back into their country. And that is where the widow and ourselves as her have representatives are trying to prevail upon their Nigerian authorities to receive this body.

CO: What you know is the cause of death of Mr. Alo?

EM: The cause of death is still under investigation. What is known publicly is that makes Mr. Alo was on that plane. He was being deported from Canada to Nigeria and there was a scuffle, at least from the official statements that we have received. There was a scuffle on the plane and Mr. Alo went into medical distress.

CO: And what did they say, those agents or anybody else on the plane? What did they say about why there was this scuffle onboard?

EM: We have been in touch with the government and under the circumstances they are speaking through their counsel from the Justice Department. And what the Justice Canada is saying, what the lawyers for those officers are saying now is that since it's a matter under a homicide investigation they will not be able to speak. They are deferring to the Calgary Police Service who are conducting this homicide investigation. And after that homicide investigation is done I think then from the civil side we are going to and require more answers.

CO: Just to clarify, is it a homicide investigation or is it an investigation by Calgary Police's Homicide Unit? Because it may not necessarily be, but the homicide unit is one investigating, it right?

EM: Yes, yes it's the homicide unit that is investigating, yes.

CO: What about other witnesses on the plane? Have you been able to speak to anybody else and find out what happened?

EM: That is one of the mysteries. And the family, the widow, the children — the family is asking too, for anyone who was on that flight on August 7^th, on that KLM flight flying from Calgary to Amsterdam. Anyone who saw anything, anyone who was on that plane, we would like to get in touch with you. Please get in touch with us so that we can hear about what happened. Somebody saw something. Somebody heard something, somebody witnessed something that happened on that plane.

CO: Why was he being deported? Why was Mr. Alo being sent back to Nigeria?

EM: Mr. Alo came to seek asylum in Canada because he had fear, he feared for his life in Nigeria. So he applied for asylum in Canada, unfortunately that asylum application was denied. He then applied under humanitarian and compassionate grounds. Those applications were also denied until they finally decided that it was time for the Canadian border services to deport him.

CO: And he was very upset about that. He told people that he can't go back he will try not to go back. Is that right?

EM: We cannot verify that information. We don't know where that information is coming from. The little that those who knew Mr. Alo are saying, even myself I knew him personally, he was a deeply religious man. He was never violent. No one has ever say that Mr. Alo was a violent person and so we don't know where that information came from that says that he threatened to be violent. And so that is unfounded.

CO: But he feared for his life if he went back to Nigeria?

EM: According to the information that he provided he had a fear that if he returned to Nigeria he would be a dead man. He did, in fact, testify that he was as good as dead.

CO: Very distressing. Mr. Munshya, I appreciate you telling us this story. Thank you so much. We will be following to see what the developments are.

EM: Thank you.

JD: Elias Munshya is the lawyer for the family of the late Bolanle Alo. We reached Mr. Munshya in Calgary.

[Music: Trance Bass]

Simon McCoy: Pippa Middleton baby announcement

JD: There has been so much baby excitement surrounding the announcement that Prince Harry and Meghan Markle are expecting in the spring. Virtually none of which is rubbing off on one BBC presenter. But that should really come as no surprise. Simon McCoy has hardly made a secret of his lacklustre interest in providing updates on impending imperial progeny. In 2013 his remarks on the birth of Prince George went viral when he told viewers quote “plenty more to come from here, none of it news,” unquote. Well earlier today Mr. McCoy did not disappoint with his indifference to such developments. Here was his reaction to the breaking — incoming information about Pippa Middleton, Kate's sister.

SOUNDCLIP

SIMON MCCOY: Within 24 hours of some baby royal news I've got some more. Pippa Middleton, Pippa Middleton, sister of course of Kate, has given birth. It says here has given birth to a baby.

[LAUGHTER]

SM: Pippa Middleton, sister of Kate, sister-in-law of William, has had a baby. So the Duke and Dutchess of Cambridge say they’re thrilled for Pippa and her husband James. So congratulations from all of us to Pippa and James on the birth of a baby. We'll have more on that later.

JD: BBC presenter Simon McCoy glee-lessly phoning in — figuratively speaking — his announcement that Pippa Middleton has given birth to baby.

[Music: Trumpet]

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