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The AIH Transcript for December 3, 2019

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

CAROL OFF: Hello, I’m Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Daemon Fairless. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

CO: Radio-free Russia.. and newspaper-free... and blog-free. The Russian government signs a new law designating certain journalists 'foreign agents'. Our guest says it's part of an on-going effort to stifle freedom of the press.

CH: A highway hero. Yesterday, in central Alberta, a school bus collided with a truck carrying a construction crane, sending eight to hospital. Our guest witnessed it — and jumped in to help.

CO: A pitiful day in the neigbourhood. An Ottawa woman is speaking out after she says six residents in one neighbourhood refused to help her teenaged son call home after his phone died.

CH: Lines and bylines. A former music editor at Vice Canada gets 9 years in prison for running a cocaine smuggling ring. We speak with the journalist who broke the story.

CO: Ad infinitum? Perhaps. But ad-hoc? Definitely not. Scholars have spent 125 years of painstaking work creating the most authoritative lexicon of ancient Latin ever. And they're still just on the letter R.

CH: And...the apples didn't fall far enough from the tree. A recent genetic study confirms what historians have always assumed: that the giant chins of the Habsburg Dynasty were the product of prodigious incest and inter-marriage.

CH: As It Happens, the Tuesday edition. Radio that suddenly feels super icky about family values.

[Music: Theme]

Part one: Russian journalism law, Alberta school bus crash, Latin dictionary

Russian journalism law

Guest: Andrei Soldatov

CH: They are writers, broadcasters, and bloggers. But the Russian government has a new name for them. Under a law signed today, journalists with even the most tenuous connections abroad run the risk of being designated "foreign agents." The same designation has already been applied to some NGO's -- causing one prominent human-rights organization to shut down. Andrei Soldatov is an independent journalist and author. We reached him in Moscow.

CO: Andrei, how might this new law affect you?

ANDREI SOLDATOV: Well, it could be a problem because I write for foreign publications. And also, I write books which are published in the U.S. and U.K. So, yeah, maybe they could use this law to attack me and other independent journalists, and to brand us foreign agents.

CO: So you might be declared a foreign agent for purposes of this law?

AS: Yeah, absolutely, they put me on some list of foreign agents.

CO: And then what happens to you after your listed as a foreign agent in your country working as a journalist?

AS: Well, first of all, all my publications should have my byline that I am a registered foreign agent. And also, I should be registered with the Russian Minister of Justice. And then, it's not absolutely clear what might happen next.

CO: And what happens if you don't do that, if you don't list yourself as a foreign agent?

AS: I could be fined, but it's not only about fines. Right now, we have another legislation under consideration that's for an agent or someone who files to get register could be arrested. And that could be just the beginning.

CO: Why do you think Vladimir Putin is doing this right now?

AS: To be honest, he perfectly understands that we have a lot of people in Russia who wants to blame all our problems on some outside forces. And it's so easy to have someone outside to blame on your problems. So it would give some ammunition to people who thinks that and you kind of say bad news, critical reporting of what the Kremlin's doing is pay it and financed and orchestrated by some hostile forces from abroad.

CO: Are people seeking out alternative sources to know about things like the public protests and demonstrations? Are you becoming — you and others, independent voices in journalism — becoming a force that Mr. Putin needs to reckon with?

AS: Most of the Russian population still relies on TV and major print media. And all of them are under control of the Kremlin. But if something happens like a local crisis in some region, people tend to rely on independent media because they do not trust the forgers. But that happens only if they have some kind of crisis, some natural disaster, or some economic crisis, or some political crisis. And that's exactly what’s considered to be a big frat for the Kremlin. For instance, we just got a new legislation about sovereign Internet. And the idea is to have a technical capability some place to isolate a particular region if something happened in this region. And the idea behind it is the same. If something’s happening, If we have some crisis, the Kremlin wants to have an option to isolate this region and to prevent this information from spreading to the rest of the country — which could, they think, provoke a larger political crisis and probably a revolution.

CO: What effect does this have on you and others? We've seen what happened with when NGOs working in Russia were declared foreign agents, and it became difficult for them to work. They're being raided, they're being watched. What effect will this have on people like yourself?

AS: Well, I think that people who are already determined to stay in our profession and to publish what they think is important, they would do what they believe is important and they would go on. The problem is that that I think, and I fear, that it would have a big effect on say what ordinary people would post online. Because we have so many repressive legislation right now about Internet freedoms that nobody can actually understand why they could be punished for posting something on social media. And people just get more cautious.

CO: You're mentioning that this law is very vaguely worded, and that's part of the issue. So can you just by virtue of doing this interview with us. I mean if it covers journalists who simply distribute or share of content abroad — which is what you're doing. You're sharing this knowledge with us in Canada. Could you be declared a foreign agent simply by virtue of doing this interview with us?

AS: [sigh] Well, first we need to find the proof that I get some funding from you. And it's something to do with very old KGB logic. Because they believe critical people, people who are troublemakers, they cannot do these things on their own. They should be paid for by some hostile forces. They do not believe in any ideals which could drive people to do something. They really believe that it's all about money. So if I would do something like an investigation with some independent media like you based in another country, that could put me in this position.

CO: But if I came over to Moscow and I looked you up and said thanks so much for that interview you did and brought you a gift, would that would that put you in hot water? That would you compromise you?

AS: Yes, absolutely. Because there is a special line in the legislation that is not only about money, but about any kind of a gift or equipment given to this person.

CO: Is there any hope for you and other independent journalists to fight this law?

AS: Yeah, I think so. Look, I've been writing about a very sensitive topic: The Russian security services, since 1999. And I'm still able to do that because, look, we live in a globalized world. And I cannot have my books published in Russia. But thanks to the internet, I can publish my books abroad. I just got my new book — the most recent book — about the Russian political diaspora — a very sensitive topic — out in the U.S. last month. And I hope that the book would be translated into Russian and found a way into Russia. So we still have some options. And I try to be optimistic.

CO: All right. We'll leave it there. Andrei, thank you.

AS: Thank you.

CH: Andrei Soldatov is an independent journalist and author. We reached him in Moscow. And we have more on that story on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Piano]

Alberta school bus crash

Guest: Adam Kozakiewicz

CH: Highway heroes. Good Samaritans. Whatever you want to call them, they helped save lives. Yesterday, on a highway North of Edmonton, a truck hauling a construction crane slammed into a school bus. It was full of students ranging in age from six to sixteen. Eight people were sent to hospital. Some of them were airlifted and in critical condition. Adam Kozakiewicz works for the town of Smoky Lake. He witnessed the accident. And he was one of the first to stop and help. We reached him in Smoky Lake, Alberta.

CO: Adam, just first of all, can you tell us about how these kids are doing the ones who are in hospital right now?

ADAM KOZAKIEWICZ: As far as I know, and that was information from this morning, they're out of surgeries right now. A couple of them are still in critical but stable condition. And all the other ones are in absolutely stable condition.

CO: You were right there when this accident happened, so what did you first see? What did you first notice of the accident?

AK: I was driving, and I saw the crane hitting the bus and pushing the bus. You know, the crane was travelling at about 100km/h — that's the speed limit — was pushing the bus into the ditch.

CO: Can you describe this intersection? What two roads are crossing?

AK: Yeah it's the major highway, Highway 28 and Range Road 180 — which is a smaller road — just a gravel road and a paved highway.

CO: And is there a stop sign there?

AK: There is a stop sign on both sides of Range Road 180, yes.

CO: And who had the right of way?

AK: It's hard for me to tell because it's still under investigation. I believe the crane had the right of way.

CO: Right. And we're talking about crane, this is a mobile crane, this is a truck that has a crane on it, right?

AK: That's right. Yeah, yeah, picker truck kind of thing.

CO: So when you see a truck collide with a school bus, I mean, this must be just an extraordinary thing. What was going through your mind when you saw that?

AK: At first, I didn't believe what I was seeing was actually happening. It seemed like the bus was just a toy being pushed by this massive picker truck. I stopped immediately, reversed, and you know there was there was a lot of steam coming out of the crane.

CO: And you went to the scene. What did you see when you got there?

AK: There was lots of people stopping — those, as we like to call them, “highway heroes”, you know, private people jumping out of their vehicles to help the kids. First thing I did is dial 911 to get my first responders to come out. Then, you know, the kids started to coming out. All of them were in it looked like pretty bad shape. You know, they've had different lacerations and broken bones that I could tell. But there was some worse stuff, but I don't really want to talk about that because it was pretty traumatizing.

CO: And the kids were coming off the best on their own?

AK: No, they needed help from us to come off the bus. I grabbed blankets out of my car because we travel with blankets out here. So we wrapped everybody up in the ones that were outside because it was still pretty cold. It was about what? Minus three, minus four, something like that, I would think?

CO: And so you and the other highway heroes — and I would count you among them — you're there, you’re getting onto the bus. You're getting the kids off the bus. That's what you were doing before the help arrived.

AK: That's right. And trying to make sure that the ones that shouldn't get off the bus, the ones that might have a neck injury, are safe. But at the same time, we didn't know if it was steam or if it was smoke that was coming from the vehicles, right?

CO: Did you have a moment when you thought you need to get these kids off — all of them off — pronto?

AK: Yes, very much so. Yeah, it felt like we needed to get them off of there. I believe there was maybe more than a couple of kids that were trapped inside the vehicle. They couldn't be removed from the bus.

CO: So the group of you were doing triage at this point, trying to figure out what to do, how to get the kids out, at what point you just had to get them out no matter what?

AK: Yeah, we were we were very lucky that a couple of the guys from one of the companies called Thompson here came out. And they had a big first aid kit, and they had some experience of being firefighters, they were volunteer firefighters, and they jumped in and started, you know, helping. And we were holding paper towels to kids’ heads and wounds to make sure that they are not bleeding out, of course.

CO: The kids must have been traumatized?

AK: Yes, they were. And I mean that the beauty of it was that the kids were helping each other out as well, right? Like, you know, the ones that felt a little bit better were, you know, hugging the other ones and trying to keep them warm.

CO: How did you get the other kids out, the ones you said that were trapped? How did they get released?

AK: One of the fire chiefs actually used Jaws of Life to free them, and a couple of saws to cut through metal in order to get a couple of them out.

CO: Was it difficult to get them out?

AK: It was fairly difficult. It was challenging because the metal pieces were buckled on top of their legs and their arms.

CO: poor kids!

AK: Very much so.

CO: Do you know what happened? Because we're understanding is that the bus did stop at the stop sign before proceeding. Did you see that?

AK: I didn't. I didn't see any of that. By the time I saw it happen, the picker truck crane was already hitting the bus.

CO: How are you doing? That must have been traumatic for you as well?

AK: Yeah, I'm not sleeping very well. I woke up 3:00 in the morning today, and didn't fall back asleep — just too much on my mind.

CO: just one thing that has come up a lot is having seat belts on school buses has been a big discussion across Canada. Where there seat belts on this bus?

AK: There was no seat belts on this bus.

CO: So is that something to consider in the future?

AK: You know what? I'm not a professional at seat belts. For some of the kids that were there, it would have helped. For others, it would have made it worse. One of the kids that was trapped was sitting right by where the crane basically moved him over, right? So if he was buckled, the crane would slam into them instead of moving them. So it's difficult to say which way is the way to go. But I think most of our research about there was probably showing that seat belts are a good thing.

CO: There must be a lot of things you're reviewing in your head about this accident.

AK: Oh, lots.

CO: Adam, I appreciate that you speak with us. Thank you.

AK: Thank you very much.

CO: Take care.

AK: Take care. Bye-bye.

CH: We reached Adam Kozakiewicz in Smoky Lake, Alberta.

[Music: Somber]

Latin dictionary

Guest: Adam Gitner

CH: Ars longa, vita brevis. That's Latin for "art is long; life is brief." And you don't have to take my word for it. You can consult the Thesaurus Linguae Latinae. Or you can, eventually. Successive teams of scholars in Germany have spent the past 125 years working on this resource. When finished, it will be the most authoritative lexicon of ancient Latin ever. However, this particular art is very, very long. The project is not expected to wrap up until at least 2050. Adam Gitner is lexicographer on the project. We reached him in Munich.

CO: Adam, It has been 125 years of work. What letter of the alphabet are you and your colleagues on?

ADAM GITNER: So we are working on the letters “R” and “N” right now — having skipped over “Q”.

CO: [laughing] Why did you skip over “Q”?

AG: Well, if you know Latin, you know that there are a lot of relative pronouns that begin with the letter “Q”. It was a strategic choice that was made to deal with all the rest of the letters first so that we could come back to that having sorted out all the other lexical problems.

CO: [laugh] Right, and what word are you on?

AG: I'm working on res publica. So it's not exactly a word, it's a phrase of two words: res and publica — meaning, literally translated, “public thing”. But it's important because we get the word republic from it. So it's a word the Romans used to refer to their own system of government.

CO: But thing, I mean, res is thing?

AG: Res means thing. Well, it means a whole lot of things. It can mean issue, welfare, legal trial, situation. And in the phrase res publica, you can get all of those meanings of res as well. So it's a complicated thing.

CO: This is a thesaurus as opposed to a dictionary, so it's a far larger project, isn't it?

AG: Yeah, well, the words thesaurus may be a bit misleading in English. Because, to us, we think we said that word, and we think there's a book of synonyms but in Latin, thesaurus just means treasury. And it was used of the first important Latin dictionary in the 16th century. And it just describes our goal to be as complete as possible in documenting this language.

CO: And what does that mean? What do you need to know besides which you wouldn't in a dictionary — a traditional dictionary— this is the word, how you pronounce it, and what it means. But how much further do you go in looking at Latin words in your work?

AG: Well, when you hear the word dictionary, you think usually of a book that gives you a few definitions, the main definitions of the word, and maybe a few examples. But what we do is give you every example. And so every definition, and every example sorted by definition. And there's a footnote to that because in some cases we do abbreviate, but every time we abbreviate, we give an indication to the reader that we have more material in our physical archives that they could consult if they'd like. And our timeframe from the beginning of Latin until about 600 A.D. And since Latin begins in the 6th century B.C., that's about twelve centuries of material — a really, really long span of time.

CO: And do you have access to all that material?

AG: Yeah, we have about 10 million physical slips, note cards where all this material was recorded where all of the surviving Latin texts in the period have been recorded and documented. And it's a growing archive. So when new inscriptions are found or new ancient texts are published, we make sure to include that.

CO: But are you actually working in an environment where all of that material is around you?

AG: Yes, yes, in a library, we have all of the notecards, and also, a modern library with recent editions of all the texts that we need to consult.

CO: Okay. Now with all respect to the work, why is it taking so long?

AG: [slight chuckle] Well, like I said, our ambition is to be complete. And there's an enormous amount of material. For res publica alone, there's about 6,500 notecards to go through. And for most of that material, a lot of that material is very straightforward, but there are passages and occurrences that are really, really difficult. So sometimes you need to spend a day or two days working on a single occurrence. Sometimes you need to go back to look at an inscription to see what it physically looks like. You need to look at an ancient manuscript. There are disagreements often. We don't know what ancient writers wrote at so at some points. So you often have to do a lot of original research to figure out what a word means. And then you have to deal with specialty topics like ancient veterinary science, or ancient cooking, or Roman law. So it takes an enormous amount of time sometimes. But that's also what's so exciting about it because you're forced to really reimagine a whole vanished world.

CO: How long have you been working on res publica.

AG: About a year.

CO: [laughing] I mean, do you ever get tired of that one and say I want to move on?

AG: No, I mean, there are points that are maybe less exciting than others. But I make discoveries every day, and I wish I had more time to to write about them.

CO: How fluent are you in Latin?

AG: [laughing] A difficult question because there's no Roman around to tell me that I'm not fluent. [CO laughs] I have no way of judging really. I feel pretty comfortable reading a lot of things. But then you encounter an ancient graffito written in a very colloquial font of Latin, or you encounter a theological treatise and you realize how much vocabulary you don't know. What's enjoyable about it as you're always learning.

CO: And so what you're looking at is not just things that what has been written down, but you just mentioned graffiti — just random uses of Latin over the years, how it's evolved. So you look at everything then?

AG: Yeah, that's our ambition. And there's graffiti. You get a view of very different forms of lower-class Roman life. We have pot shards written, we have inscriptions on coins, papyrus, curse tablets. I mean, if you study Latin in school, you tend to concentrate on a few elite authors like Cicero or Virgil. But there's really a whole world of Latin out there that's really fascinating to explore.

CO: The ambition is to have it finished by the year 2050. Do you see yourself seeing it through? You’re just at letter N and R. Do you think that you'll still be with the thesaurus at that point?

AG: I really hope so. And I know all my colleagues really hope so. And I'm sure there are people working now in the library and on the weekend. The amount of dedication to it is incredible. But we've been proven wrong in our predictions about our completion dates in the past.

CO: Yes, I understand [laughing]. Well, Adam, I’ll let me get back to work, and I appreciate speaking with you, thank you.

AG: Thanks very much for your interest. Bye-bye.

CO: Bye.

CH: That was lexicographer Adam Gitner, who's working on the Thesaurus Linguae Latinae. We reached him in Munich. To see pictures of the library where Mr. Gitner works, visit our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Christmas-like]

Habsburg study

CH: For hundreds of years, it was the most prominent feature among some of the most prominent Europeans rulers. And it was not pretty. I'm talking about what's known as the Habsburg jaw. Now, the Habsburg Dynasty ruled much of Europe between the 1400s and the 1700s. It is renowned for being one of the most influential royal houses. And for being non-traditional looking — especially arround the face. The Habsburg jaw is, more accurately, a set of facial features — an elongated, chin; a long, protuberant nose and a pendulous lower lip. As the dynasty procreated, its decedents inherited more Habsburgian features. So much so that one of the last Habsburg descendants, Charles II of Spain, was known as "The Bewitched." The assumption was that all this had something to do with inbreeding. A solid assumption given that incest was a Habsburg family tradition — they intermarried to hold on to their power and influence. This week, that assumption got some backing from science. A new genetic analysis in the Annals of Human Biology clearly shows that the severity of the Habsburg jaw is highly correlated with the degree of incest. Now, unlike a lot of science, this study has some practical take-away: One of the authors of the report summed it up like this, "Don't get married with your sister or your mother. Huge amounts of inbreeding is going to be bad and you're going to be ugly as the f-bomb, like Charles the II." All to say: sometimes the best advice is staring you right in the face.

[Music: Ambient]

Part two: Vice editor sentenced, Ottawa door knocker

Vice editor sentenced

Guest: Sean Craig

CH: It's the kind of edgy story Vice News would normally love to report on: an elaborate drug smuggling ring, run by a free-wheeling music editor in Toronto. The thing is, the music editor in question had actually worked at Vice. Today, Yaroslav Pastukhov was sentenced to nine years in prison on conspiracy to import cocaine to Australia. Slava P., as he was more commonly known, was the editor of "Noisey," Vice's music website in the early 2010s. He recruited young journalists and artists into a scheme that involved codenames, and travel through airports. Sean Craig is the journalist who first blew the lid on the drug-smuggling scheme. He wrote a feature about it for the National Post — and was in court today for sentencing. We reached him in Toronto.

CO: Sean, what was Slava Pastukov’s response today in court to the news that he will be sentenced to nine years in prison?

SEAN CRAIG: He was visibly emotional, and, you know, it seemed taken aback. He and his mother — who was in attendance with him in court — they embraced; the judge allowed them to spend a few minutes together before he was taken away. But it was abundantly clear that, you know, the heaviness of the moment had sat with him, and probably will sit with him for some time.

CO: Now, this man — Slava Pastukov — known as Slava P., it was kind of a nickname of his, what was his role at Vice Media?

SC: He was the editor of Vice's music vertical — which called Noisy — in Canada for part of the mid 2000s. Which, you know, meant to Vice's prominence in the media landscape, you know, is particularly felt in the cultural space. You know, they did lots of great and interesting music coverage. And so that put him at the centre of Toronto, which was this thriving metropolis that was emerging as a really fascinating cultural and musical city in the world.

CO: Okay, so how from there, I mean, there are, of course, a lot of connections with drug culture in that world. And so how did he become involved in drug smuggling? What was his first contact with that world?

SC: We don't know for certain, but what he submitted in court, what he claimed, was that he ended up involved in an international cocaine trafficking conspiracy because he was encouraged by the culture of Vice — which is, you know, in its nascent days, you know, did take a very sort of libertine attitude towards drug use and drug consumption, which its founders were open about. And, you know, that led to it adopting what you’d call a sort of gonzo style reporting. Slava claims that, you know, he saw his colleagues doing stuff like going out and reporting on ISIS by interviewing with ISIS people, by reporting on drug cartels and things like that, and also consuming and using drugs that he wanted to take on this immersive lifestyle himself, you know? And so that's how he claims he somehow ended up in with a cocaine experience, a conspiracy.

CO: Okay, lots of people go and do swashbuckling reporting in all kinds of areas and end up being part of the thing that they're reporting on. Did you have any idea how Slava P., how I guess he used his position at VIce to actually recruit people into a drug smuggling scheme?

SC: Yes. You know, one of the people who ended up getting arrested for trafficking, he met at a party that was related to Vice. His roommate, who he recruited, was a musician who'd been profiled by Vice. One of those who was arrested was a former intern at Vice. People we interviewed who were approached to go on these trips but declined in some cases where freelance writers, who had their relationship was Slava was as an editor. And so when he approached them, they assumed that he was approaching them with a writing job or something, you know? And it sounded like a nice lucrative writing job that was going to pay ten thousand dollars. And then when they got on the phone with him, it became more and more apparent that this isn't a trip to Australia, you know, to go cover some nascent music scene. It's something else entirely.

CO: Now, the article that you wrote, the investigation that you did with Adrian Humphreys, you actually talked to some of these people who he attempted to recruit. And you also got into the story of the people who had been arrested in Australia — four Canadians, one American. How did they get caught?

SC: They were caught because Australian Border Police scanned their bags, you know. I mean oftentimes, you know, it's merely a crapshoot. It depends on the certain people's bags end up getting screened for any number of reasons. Australia in particular because it is it's surrounded by quite a few major drug markets and because it's an ocean country, it has a pretty rigorous screening process at its borders. Also, cocaine is prohibitively expensive there because it needs to be imported.

CO: But I mean these young people, reasonably savvy, why did they do it? What motivated them?

SC: It's 10,000 dollars. You know, most of these people worked either in the media or culture industries — which are, you know, industries now that are undergoing massive economic disruption, where younger people in these industries are underpaid. I work in the media, you know, I worked a full-time job last year I got little more than minimum wage. This is a pretty terrible industry that doesn't treat people well. And so if somebody phoned me up and said I have a job for you that'll pay you 10,000 dollars, I'd listen to them. You know, I'd definitely say no when it became apparent it was drug trafficking.

CO: And so what were they asked to do? What was the scheme? How did it work?

SC: They were asked to fly from Toronto, or in one case, New York. They would meet in Las Vegas, where they would exchange dollar bills that they were given two unnamed co-conspirators, who would give them these pre-packed luggage that had cocaine sewn into the lining. The reason they were given these dollar bills is because a dollar bill is a very innocuous thing that happens to have a individual serial number on it. So that was a way for this organization that was involved in the trafficking to keep track of its contraband. You know, when you get to Vegas, and you hand one guy a dollar bill, and he hands you another one, that means the organization can trace, you know, when an exchange happened. You know, it was both very simple, but also very elegant in that way.

CO: At the centre of all this, all these young people who've gone to prison, and their lives are turned upside down, is this man Slava P., who was sentenced to nine years. He said at some point, I became the most prolific and notorious music journalist Toronto will ever see. Does Slava P. see himself as a kind of a star in a gangster movie or something?

SC: He certainly seems to revel in his public notoriety to an extent. You know, he's maintained private Instagram and Twitter accounts, where, you know, he's gone out of his way to sort of mock people who he sees as being responsible for his downfall. One of those people is me. He called me a weasel I think is what it was, maybe a wiener. I don't remember exactly. So yeah, there seems to be something in him that that gets satisfaction out of the notoriety. But, you know, at the same time, on the other side, he did seem to be grappling with a heaviness today, you know confronted with the prospect of a jail sentence, confronted with, you know, the prospect of not seeing his mother as much as he normally does. You know, they had a really beautiful and close relationship. I mean, I take my hat off for the two of them, and I wish them the best.

CO: Sean, I appreciate you telling us the story. Thank you.

SC: Thank you, Carol.

CH: Sean Craig used to work for the National Post. He now reports for the National Observer. He was in court today for the sentencing of Yaroslav Pastukhov — otherwise known as Slava P. — a former Toronto music editor who now faces nine years behind bars on conspiracy to import cocaine to Australia.

[Music: World music]

Prince George downtown

CH: On the average day, testimony at city hall meetings is not generally all that riveting. But at a packed city hall meeting in Prince George, British Columbia last night, local residents searched for solutions to rising levels of addiction, homelessness and crime. And one story, in particular, captivated everyone in the room. It started with this account by Neil Wilkinson. He's a Major with the Salvation Army. Here he's speaking about two prolific offenders he's gotten to know, using the pseudonyms "Bob" and "Betty."

SOUNDCLIP

NEIL WILKINSON: Bob and Betty are people who were residing in the neighbourhood. And we got to know them because they were apprehended on our property in places they weren't supposed to be. And over the course of time, we got to know Bob and Betty. And over the course of time, we began to build a relationship. We got to hear their story. We got to hear about why they were in the situation that they were in. And one of the things that I came to realize about Bob and Betty’s situation is that they had the capacity in themselves to make different choices, and to make life changes. What they needed was somebody to dig in for the long journey in the context of relationship, hear their story, affirm the journey that they've been on, and provide them with personal choices that they can make to have different outcomes than what they've been experiencing in their life. And it's taken a long time, but I'm really happy to report that Bob and Betty are no longer socially-dependent. They're housed, they're employed, and they are contributing members of society.

CH: Neil Wilkinson of the Salvation Army speaking at a public meeting in Prince George last night. About an hour after Mr. Wilkinson told that story, another speaker took the microphone -- to share his perspective.

DANIEL ROY: I’m Bob. [clapping] You know, I was I was one of the worst prolific offenders in this city for quite a number of years. I was addicted to meth and heroin. I had 235 run-ins with the RCMP in my last year of addiction. The opposite of addiction, in my opinion, is grace and compassion, and it's community. These people downtown, they need people to love them. They need people to reach out to them. I'm tired of having my being anonymous. The stigma around addiction and recovery needs to be broken. We do heal. I mean, there's gonna be problems, yes. But, you know, recovery is possible. And these people just need a little bit of compassion. I just wanted to speak in defence of the addicts that are out there. So thank you for hearing me. [clapping]

CH: That is Daniel Roy — a.k.a. "Bob." He's the Prince George resident who Neil Wilkinson of the Salvation Army got to know ... a decision Mr. Roy says has made all the difference in his life. Both Daniel Roy and Neil Wilkinson were speaking at a public meeting in Prince George, B.C. last night.

[Music: World music]

Ottawa door knocker

Guest: Tracey Sanderson

CH: Ordinarily, when the cops bring your teen home from a party, you're not exactly overwhelmed with relief ... but that's precisely how Tracey Sanderson felt when the Ottawa police dropped her 15-year old son home on Friday night. The evening had not gone as planned. Ms. Sanderson's son was left stranded in an area east of Ottawa's downtown. And she was left shocked at the behaviour of some of the people in that neighbourhood. We reached Tracey Sanderson in Ottawa.

CO: Tracy how did your son come to be stranded in Rockcliffe Park on Friday night?

TRACEY SANDERSON: Well, he was planning to meet some friends at a function. And I think he left my house about eight o'clock. He arrived, and his friends had left to another function. So he found himself alone. His phone has been acting up. And when it's cold — and Ottawa weather can be chilly — it wasn't working properly. Because we had a plan, when he arrived, he'd call me. And then when it was time to come home, I would send an Uber for him.

CO: Okay, so just this neighbourhood he is in — Rockcliffe Park — for people who don't know that, can you describe it for us?

TS: I'm actually, I’ve only been in Ottawa a couple of years. I wasn't really familiar with it, but from what I understand, it's a gated community, probably more affluent neighbourhood, from what I've heard. Really, [laughing] I have been hearing lots of things about Rockcliffe in the Twitter feed. And I certainly didn't intend to target Rockcliffe as a community.

CO: [laughing] It's pretty swanky though. I mean, it’s where I think a lot of ambassadors and judges and senior people live. So it's a pretty high-end neighbourhood, isn't it?

TS: Yeah, I've heard that.

CO: What did your son do then now that he's stranded in Rockcliffe Park?

TS: He just went knocking on doors. So his messaging to people when he knocked on the doors was my phone is dead. Can I use your phone to call my mother, or can you call my mother for me? And the first house he visited, there was a gentleman, he looked at him through the window, and said I can't help you.

CO: I can't help you, that’s it? just I can't help you?

TS: I can't help you. So my son moved on to other homes in the neighbourhood, and yeah, essentially, no one wanted to help. And they called the police. They called 911.

CO: How many houses did he go to before they called the police on him?

TS: Six.

CO: Okay, so they call 911, and then what happens?

TS: So two SUVs showed up, as well as two security guards. So, at this point, I mean, their police officers weren't aware of the situation, so they Frisked him, and thought initially he was a criminal or trying to break and enter. I'm not really sure. But it wasn't too long after that the police officer realized what was going on. And they put him in the back of the police car, and drove him home. And, you know, it really sunk in with me over the weekend thinking about it, thinking what can I do? And that's when I tweeted to my message on Sunday. Because said over the weekend, it just made me more angry that this could happen.

CO: What was the reaction to your tweet?

TS: [disgusted sigh followed by a laugh] Uh, a flurry, a flurry of activity. You know, I'd say about 70, 75 per cent of the messages were positive — especially from other mothers. And, you know, there was about 25 per cent who were very negative. And, you know, I've had people comment saying that they hoped I learned the lesson from this. I'm not quite sure what that means. Yeah, it’s just it's incredible actually the amount of coverage that this had picked up. The 25 per cent, did they think that these residents who were in their houses were justified in not helping your son?

TS: Um-hm. They think that they were justified by calling 911. And, you know, my argument has been 911 is for emergency services. This is not an emergency. It's wasting taxpayer dollars. Yes, they think that they had a right to feel safe in their homes.

CO: And so did you have any exchange with them? Did you say that okay, maybe there's some reason for apprehension? How did you respond to the people who said that maybe this was a teenager knocking on doors at night might be legitimate to call police? What did you say to them?

TS: I said I don't think it's legitimate. And, you know, they didn't have to open their door. They can speak through the door, and say, you know, give me your mother's number. I'll call her myself. That would have been a legitimate response. Not calling the police. You know, I don't know. I question what's going on in our society that you can't help a teenager.

CO: There were some other Twitter remarks that pointed out that often race is a factor in a situation like this, and that things could have gone a lot worse for your son if he were black. What's your response to that?

TS: Someone made a comment in one of the tweets that said suggesting that it was white privilege towards my son because I had described him. So that caused a little backlash because I said, you know, he’s academic, astute, of course, I'm a mother, why wouldn't I say that, right? He does not look threatening in any way. And I said to this person, I said, I didn't say what race my son was, and why you're pulling the race card, right? Because I didn't want to bring that up at all, and someone else did. And there were people — this gentleman from Detroit — who commented on this. And I can't imagine. Like, we've all seen the news in the U.S. I don't want to comment on that. But this could be a greater issue I suppose.

CO: Why do you think it has struck such a nerve with people?

TS: I think there's been a lot of stories about children. I mean, in Ottawa recently, there was a 13-year-old-boy found dead, right? There's been many cases of children gone missing, and it's a parent's worst nightmare. And we as mothers can't imagine that someone would treat your child like that, or any child. As soon as you became a mother, you're a mother to all children. When something happens in the news, you react.

CO: What would be your hope, just because you're engaged in this conversation, we're having it as well, what would you like to see come out of this?

TS: When someone asks for help, do not think that this person is out to get you. There's this element of fear in our society — a culture of fear — that we have to somehow move beyond. And help our fellow citizens — especially more so when they're kids.

CO: Tracy, thanks so much for speaking with us.

TS: Thank you.

CO: Bye.

CH: Tracey Sanderson says her 15-year-old son knocked on six doors in Ottawa on Friday night for help, after his phone died. Not one offered help. But one did call the police. We reached Ms. Sanderson in Ottawa.

[Music: Ambient]

Masai Ujiri

CH: Right up until the final minutes of their victory over Golden State in Game 6, there were doubters. Those who thought the Toronto Raptors could never win an NBA championship. And this season, the doubters are back. Certain the Raptors would never be able to replicate those results without Kawhi Leonard on their roster. So far, the team is silencing those doubts pretty handily. They're ranked second overall in the Eastern Conference — and they're defending a perfect home-court record against the Miami Heat tonight. It's the kind of result you might think would highten the stakes — and the stress. But Raptors' President of Basketball Operations Masai Ujiri says he feels no such pressure. Here he is speaking with CBC Toronto's Matt Galloway today.

SOUNDCLIP

MASAI UJIRI: Winning change changes a lot, you know? And, to be honest, you can see how it's changed with the team, which is where it starts from. On confidence, and you're not scared to lose anymore. If you lose, you lose, you know? Like, you come back and play the next game. And if we don't win for the next hundred years, we always think we can win. Yes, you always believe that you can. That's what a championship does, and that's what it does for the city. People believe more, and people outside respect more. That's just what winning does. We play sports to win. It's very simple.

MATT GALLOWAY: What does that do in terms of pressure? I don't know whether you feel pressure, because there's different kinds. There's the expectations from, you know, the people who own the team, and from the players. But there's also expectations from fans now. We've won, and people expect us to win again. How do you handle pressure?

MU: I've have friend I played with in Belgium, and he once told me, I think we were down in the second division at the top seed, but all the way down 0-2 or something in the in the in the playoffs then. And somebody asked him about that, and he said he's from the Congo. And at the time, there was the war in the Congo, and he had an uncle. And his uncle would call him all the time crying. He had a wife, and 11 kids. They lived in this little room tent kind of place, and the kids were from ages I think six months to I think it was 13 years or 14 years. And the wife had eight, okay? And the uncle had AIDS, and he didn't know how he was going to feed those kids every day, okay. That's pressure, yeah. Not throwing the ball in the damn hoops, you know? Like, honestly, we come to work every day. I've never felt pressure in working basketball. There's no pressure at all. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. I'll be doing something else. What is there to feel pressure about? Yeah, you get into your team, and you get upset if you win or you lose. But, honestly, like this I've felt since I've came here, since I started working in sports, I've felt zero pressure. Because if I'm not doing this, I'd be doing something else that I love.

[/ac]

CH: Masai Ujiri is President of Basketball Operations for the Toronto Raptors. He was speaking with CBC's Metro Morning today.

[Music: Piano]

Part three: Scotland garbage whales, opossum drop

Scotland garbage whales

Guest: Nick Davison

CH: Inside the belly of the whale a disturbing finding. Recently a ten-year-old sperm whale washed up on a beach in Scotland. Researchers were surprised and appalled by what they found inside. Plastic waste and fishing gear — 100 kilograms of it. Nick Davison is the Strandings Coordinator with the Scottish Marine Animal Stranding Scheme. We reached him in Inverness, Scotland.

CO: Nick, what was this ball of waste inside the whale's stomach? What was it made of?

NICK DAVISON: The majority of it was discarded or lost fishing gear. Several times, we had bits of netting, which would appear to be in as part of a trawl net. But also, lines and ropes that are possibly part of the krill fishing industry. And it was also a rope which we think were associated with mussel farms. But there was also other bits of detritus such as packing straps — the sort of things that, you know, would wrap cardboard cartons in. But also things like plastic gloves, there some disposable plastic cups.

CO: We know it's not unusual to find such a waste inside the sea animals, but it's the sheer size of this one, isn't it — 100 kilograms of ocean waste inside this whale?

ND: Yes, I mean, that's an approximation. We actually haven’t weighed it all yet. But we’re guessing it's around 100 kilos. And the fact that it's obviously been there for quite some time, because it is sort of balled up into quite a bit of mass. And there was stomach secretions that were sticking it altogether. So we were able to determine that this amount of rubbish was in the stomach for a serious length of time.

CO: And what was your reaction and that of others when you saw this waste ball?

ND: Well, we weren't expecting it at all. And so we were all pretty shocked. And as we dissected the stomach further, you know, it became apparent there was much more than any of us I think thought was possible to be in a stomach of an animal. And we often find plastic waste into deep diving species. But it might be only one or two small pieces. It was astounding and very, very, very shocking really.

CO: The animal was ten years old, ten-year-old male.

ND: Well, we don't know. The only way to age cetaceans is by looking at the teeth. And then you can count growth rings. And we haven't had that done yet. So it's an estimation based on length. So it's certainly ten years, or possibly a bit older, we don't know for certain.

CO: And what role did this waste play in the death of the whale, as far as you know?

ND: Well, it would certainly have an impact on its ability to feed and digest food. It wasn't impacted, and by that, what I mean is it wasn't such a large amount and it was causing a blockage into the intestines. But it was space-occupying. So, you know, that space would normally be occupied by the animal’s food. And because this amount of rubbish was in the stomach, that obviously reducing the amount of food the animal can take in. So there'll be a reduction in energy there was because the calorific value of the food it takes in is very low because they feed on squid, which have very low calorific value. So they have to eat large amounts of them. And if there's something in the way of this sort of the prey species into the stomach, then it means that the animal has a reduced calorific resource. And, therefore, it's bound to have an effect on its condition. So, you know, it wasn't it wasn't in the best condition. It wasn’t in the worst condition either. And it must have been extremely painful, I would think, It would be like you are having a very bad heartburn or ingestion of incontinence.

CO: And what's been the reaction? We know that when the reports of this kind of waste in our own fishing communities, they have been aghast. The's been a lot of discussion in Canada and North America about what we can do to reduce the amount. How this fishing gear becomes loose? How it can get ingested by these animals? Has there been any reaction from the fishing community in the Hebrides?

ND: I think that they're probably as shocked as those that we are. I mean, there are already initiatives that the Scottish fishermen have undertaken. There particular initiative called Fishing for Litter, which you know whenever they call haul their nets in, if they bring up any garbage from the seabed, that they bring it ashore and dispose it properly. And these folks are the best people to do it because, you know, it's their livelihood. They're out there all the time. It's becoming apparent as the year has gone on that, you know, they need to clean their act up a bit. And they certainly are starting to do so over here in the U.K. at least.

CO: And these nets become loose. They could be weighted differently. They could use different lengths of rope. They could be secured differently. There's all kinds of discussions here.

ND: Yes, I mean it's not just ingestion, you know? We have a particular problem with entanglement. I mean, particularly in krill lines, you know? whales get entangled, they get loop of rope around their tails, and depending on the species, either drowned or they can drag the pots behind for quite some time and you get chronic lesions. And eventually, they either get an infection or they succumb because they can't feed properly. It's not just ingestion. Ghost gear, and discarded and lost fishing gear, as well as detritus gets in the sea from you know terrestrial runoff from rivers and lakes. It all has an impact on these animals — particularly the whales, the large males at least.

CO: Earlier this year, in the spring, there was a dead whale found in the Philippines with 88 pounds of plastic bags and other disposable products in its stomach. And then the next month, 48 pounds of disposable dishes and shopping bags mostly found in a dead whale in Italy. As we become aware of this, and we're supposed to be trying to do something about it, do you think that, in fact, that more animals are ingesting more plastic?

ND: When we look back through our database, you know, often in you know 10-15 years ago, you would see a report of you know an odd bit of unusual detritus found inside the stomach. Even today though, large amounts of what we would call macro plastic or the micro plastic stuff — which is ingested secondarily by prey that they feed on. So, for instance, you have dolphins eating fish that had ingested very tiny small particles of plastic. I mean, we did have a case in 2015 of another deep-diving species of beaked whale that came ashore. And when we opened that one up, we found four-poit-two-five kilos of plastic bags inside that. And that had killed the animal when it came ashore because it completely impacted the stomach. I think it's on the increase, and I think we will see more of it. There needs to be things put in place to stop this sort of stuff getting into the ocean.

CO: Very distressing news. Nick, I appreciate you telling it to us. Thank you.

ND: That's okay. A pleasure.

CH: Nick Davison is the Strandings Coordinator with the Scottish Marine Animal Stranding Scheme. We reached him in Inverness, Scotland.

[Music: Indie rock]

Prince Andrew accuser

CH: She says she was quote: "passed around like a platter of fruit," among Jeffrey Epstein's friends — and now, years later, Virginia Giuffre is speaking out about who exactly she says those friends were. Last night, in an interview on the BBC-TV show Panorama, Ms. Giuffre detailed how Mr. Epstein trafficked her as a teenager, and forced her to have sex with his friends, who she alleges, included Prince Andrew. Prince Andrew denied those allegations in his own interview with the BBC last month — after which, he stepped back from his public duties. Now, the Prince is under more scrutiny, after Ms. Giuffre's shared her account with the British public. Among her allegations are disturbing details of an encounter Ms. Guiffre says took place, after she, Mr. Epstein and his friend Ghislaine Maxwell met Prince Andrew at a London nightclub. Here's what she says happened, for the record.

SOUNDCLIP

VIRGINIA GIUFFRE: in the car, Ghislaine tells me that I have to do. For Andrew what I do for Jeffrey, and that made me sick. I just didn't expect it from royalty. I didn't expect it from someone that people look up to and admire, you know, in the royal family. There was a bath. And it started there, and then it led into the bedroom, and it didn't last very long, the whole entire procedure. It was disgusting. He wasn't mean or anything, but he got up, and he said thanks, and walked out. and I sat there in bed, just horrified, and ashamed, and felt dirty, and I had to get up and go have a shower. And, you know, the next day, Ghislaine tells me I did a really good job. You know, she pats on the back, and said you made him really happy. [breaking down] It was a wicked time in my life. It was a really scary time in my life. I had just been abused by a member of the royal family. So when you talk about these chains, you know? Yeah, I wasn't chained to a sink. But these powerful people were my chains. I didn't know what could happen. And I couldn't comprehend how the highest levels of government and powerful people were allowing this to happen. Not only allowing it to happen, but participating in it.

CH: For the record, that's Virginia Giuffre speaking on the BBC TV program, Panorama , last night. She detailed a number of allegations against Prince Andrew and Ghislaine Maxwell — all of which they have denied.

[Music: Ambient]

FOA: Kiribati doc

CH: It's a warning that's been heard before. But, unfortunately, it needs repeating. This week, at the global climate conference in Madrid, the president of the Marshall Islands warned that her country is in quote "a fight to the death." unqoute. The threat posed by climate change to the Marshall Islands and other low-lying coastal nations is not years away. It is here now — in the form of floods. Last year, we told you the story of Kiribati's former president, Anote Tong, and his crusade to tell the world about how the ocean threatens to swallow his homeland. It was the subject of a documentary called "Anote's Ark." Here is part of Carol's conversation with Anote Tong.

CO: President Tong, I just want ask you, first of all, if you can tell us a bit about Kiribati because the documentary is very disturbing, very troubling, but it's also very beautiful because your country, your nation is so beautiful. Can you describe Kiribati?

AT: Well, you are absolutely correct, it is a beautiful country. It's right in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, on the equator, and also straddling the international dateline. They're all mostly coral atolls. Of course, coral atolls are just bits of coral on top of the seam-lines, and so the elevation is on average about two metres above sea level, and therefore, not very resilient to any kind of a storm. And, of course, with the rising sea level the level of vulnerability is extreme. I think we argue that case every time we go to the United Nations to discuss about least development country status. That even if we do achieve some development, all of this could be cancelled out whenever there is a bot of an adverse condition.

CO: It's disappearing — your republic is sinking?

AT: Well, you don't see it sinking, but you see things happening, OK? And I think I wouldn’t be exaggerating to say that in the last few years, we're seeing this sea level rise, and I've never really said that. But what I say is this: we are seeing events like the contamination of the water lines. We are seeing villages gone. We are seeing the destruction of food crops. But I think you take that in combination with the science that's coming forward, and there’s real reason for concern in the future.

CO: You have about 100,000 people who live there.

AT: We've got over 100,000 people.

CO: And the other thing that seems to be changing, which you've documented in this in this program, is that you're getting more severe weather. Did you have these typhoons before in Kiribati?

AT: We don't get typhoons. Since we're on the equator, we actually create the typhoons. But in 2015, one of the cyclones that the islands of Vanuatu totally destroyed — it actually went north. It came back north, and flooded all of the islands, flooded our southern-most islands, and also flooded the rest to a lesser extent. But the effect of damaging a lot of food crops, which had been there for decades, and also contaminated the waterlines. And so this is new, and taking that in combination with the science that say it's going to get worse not better, I think it really is a story to be listened to.

CO: But your own family, your own children, grandchildren, it must be so disturbing to know — and as you point out in the film — not just that you're going to lose this place quite possibly, but how much else you lose. You're an Indigenous people, you lose the entire culture.

AT: You know I can tell you it's not a nice feeling. And especially I have more than a dozen grandchildren, and I do watch them play. One day, I asked myself the question where will they be? I discussed it with my wife, and said where will these kids be when all of this comes down? And this is why I know that there is a certain sense of thinking that maybe God will provide. Let God provide, but we need to do as much as possible in order to allow that to happen. And I think there are things we can do to give security to our people. And this is what I've been saying that coming up with all kinds of radical wild options, but in the absence of anything else, why not?

CH: That was Anote Tong, the former president of Kiribati, speaking to Carol in April 2018.

[Music: Horns!]

Opossum drop

Guest: Beth Sparks

DF: Here's a less-than-fun fact for you: did you know that in North Carolina, legal protections for opossums go out the window for five days a year? That for those five days, you can legally do anything to, with, or around an opossum? Or "possum", if you prefer? Beth Sparks is a wildlife rehabilitator who has been fighting this law for years from the state next door. She runs the Opossum's Pouch Sanctuary in Prosperity, South Carolina. That's where we reached her.

CO: Beth, why is there a law in North Carolina that allows people to do anything they want to opossums for five days of the year?

BETH SPARKS: This law was passed just a few years ago, and it's basically, in my opinion, was just an abuse of power. And it was passed so Clay Logan can hold his annual New Year's Eve Opossum Drop.

CO: What is it an Opossum Drop?

BS: Okay, you have the ball that they drop in Times Square in New York. And I guess 20 years ago or so, they thought that it would be cute in this small town to put a possum in a plexiglass cage and lower it at New Year's Eve. They consider it a tradition, but we are trying to get them to understand the fear and the stress that is put on this poor animal. But the animal dangles in a plexiglass cage up in the air from about 10:00 to midnight. There's fireworks. There's people in the crowd drinking and screaming and shouting. And then at midnight, the opossum was lowered down just like the ball in Times Square in New York.

CO: I guess this came to the attention of many when one or possum really suffered that we know of. You've said that all of them suffered. But what happened to this opossum named Millie?

BS: Last year, we named her Millie. Last year, there was a little girl that was used that had been caught in a leg hold trap. And in catching her, the trap snapped and broke her leg — which is pretty much the case with any leg hole trap. Apparently, they had had her for a few days to a week before the drop because the leg already had a really bad odor from the circulation being cut off. So she was used in a lot of pain with a broken leg. And she dangled in the air in the rain inside of a box for two hours before they lowered her. And we were able to get her, she was turned over immediately to us. She was never given any medication, no vet treatment, no care. And as soon as she came to us, we rushed her to our veterinarian, and he did everything he could to save the leg. But four days later, it had to be amputated.

CO: The consequences though were that a petition started up that received tens of thousands of signatures of people demanding that this law be struck from the books, is that right?

BS: That's correct. The law basically omits any opossum from any cruelty for five days a year. And that law was created strictly to allow this to happen. Because, with the help of other organizations, we were able to stop it, and so they figured the only way to shut us down is to omit them from cruelty so we had no defence. But they always claimed no opossum was ever injured or harmed in any way. And now, that has shot that out of the water. They can't say that any longer. This law definitely needs reversed. A person can take an opossum for those five days a year in North Carolina. They could catch a possum, take it down, and light it on fire in front of the police department, and there would be nothing anyone can do about it.

CO: It's quite astonishing that the statute says no state or local laws related to the capture, captivity, treatment, or release of wildlife shall apply to the opossum from December 29 to January 2nd. So just five days of you can do anything you want to these animals. When you describe this scene of them, these are very shy animals that just are very timid. What effect do you think it has on them to be in that box hanging over the crowd?

BS: And I specialized in opossums for 27 years. And it's very hard to get the general public to understand opossums, if they become very fearful, the whole act of playing dead for them is not just a behavioural thing. It's chemically-induced with them, but it causes a lot of stress. They will suffer from capture myopathy — which is a medical term. But it also, the stress will cause dermal septic necrosis. And the four opossums we were able to get in our care in the last several years all broke with dermal septic necrosis within days after receiving them. It's like a staph infection when they're stressed. And people would understand that if you put a dog, anyone's dog that's afraid of fireworks, if you put a dog in a box and did that to a dog or a pet it would be mortified. So you put a wild animal that is very shy, that is nocturnal, and they're put into this type of environment, It never ever ends well for those animals and we just cannot get them to understand this, and to see the harm done.

CO: Do you think so that now that you have a petition with more than 150,000 people who have signed it, do you think that that will cause lawmakers to repeal that law?

BS: I wish that I could say it would. I say maybe they will pay a little bit more attention now that we can prove one, like Mille, was harmed. But we deal with, and I don't know how it is, I can only speak for my state and North Carolina and a few surrounding states. The good ole boy system is still very much active and in place. And Clay Logan — who holds this event — he has friends in the House and the Senate, and they simply put this law forward to do him a favour. We would like to think we're going to make a difference, and I hope that we can. But I know that we're not going to stop fighting this ever. I've done this for 14 years, and I'll never give up.

CO: Beth, it's a very disturbing story, and I appreciate you telling it to us. Thank you.

BS: Well thank you so much for speaking with me, and we really appreciate it.

CO: Bye.

BS: All right. Bye-bye.

DF: Beth Sparks is a wildlife rehabilitator who runs the Opossum's Pouch Sanctuary in Prosperity, South Carolina. That's where we reached her. The town of Brasstown, North Carolina, promised in 2018 that they would no longer drop live possums. To see video of the possum drop as well as photos of possums, head to our webpage: www.cbc.ca/aih.

December 3, 2019 Episode Transcript

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