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The AIH Transcript for March 24, 2020

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

CO: Desperate times call for unusual parliamentary measures. As the Trudeau government asks for new powers to fight COVID-19, the NDP's Jagmeet Singh says the needs of Canadians must come first.

CO: The best defence is a good offence. One Italian town has managed to stop the virus in its tracks by getting ahead of the curve. Our guest explains how — and what Canada can learn.

CO: His home game is fierce. The Blue Jays may not be hitting home runs anytime soon, but sportscaster Jamie Campbell has been hitting the phones — calling up individual baseball fans while the sport is sent to the bench.

CH: As It Happens, the Tuesday edition. Radio that always puts the petal to the metal.

COVID-19: Parliamentary measures

Guest: Jagmeet Singh

CH: In Ottawa today, Justin Trudeau asked parliament for extraordinary new powers. The Prime Minister told reporters that the legislation his government proposed was necessary to fight both the pandemic and its aftermath.

[sc]

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: Passing this bill today means getting you the support you deserve as soon as possible. When you're trying to help get money out to people, speed is of the essence, especially in an unprecedented situation like this one. But I want to make it very clear, I believe in our democratic institutions. All of us in parliament must work together. And Canadians need to see us doing just that. So you have my unwavering commitment. We will protect and uphold our democratic values. We will protect and uphold our democratic institutions as we deliver support to Canadians as quickly as possible.

[/sc]

CH: That was Prime Minister Trudeau in Ottawa today. Jagmeet Singh is the leader of the NDP. We reached him in Ottawa.

CO: Mr Singh, you just heard Justin Trudeau assuring Canadians that his government will uphold democracy, but he needs these powers to get money to desperate Canadians. What do you say to him about that?

JAGMEET SINGH: Well, I think that the prime minister is in a very difficult situation. I want to acknowledge the hard work that to him, the ministers and all parliamentarians are putting in during this serious crisis, particularly given that he's got a partner that's contracted the illness. And he's got children that he's got to take care of on top of that. So… And a country to run. So I understand that. What I want to make clear is there are provisions that we all agreed to. I agreed to immediately when it was announced that there was some help to Canadians. I indicated early on that I would be supporting these measures, and that the New Democrats can be counted on for support. And I think what we need to do right now is there are certain measures that we certainly all agree with. We need to focus on those and get them passed immediately. There is some disagreement about additional powers, and we can work that out. But I think we cannot wait when it comes to making sure Canadians get some relief. And we know some of the really desperate stories of people who have been out of work for some time now and are worried about not getting any sort of income for over a month.

CO: Right. Sorry to interrupt. But what are those priorities? Let’s say just give us the top three things you think have to be done immediately in order to relieve those people?

JS: Well, some of the measures are included. We mentioned that the EI, as it exists, only applies to 40 per cent of Canadians. That means the vast majority aren't going to get relief. So the measures that are included are going to expand the coverage to those who wouldn't be normally covered by EI. But I think three things that people need right now. They need money in their pockets, right now. They need to know that their jobs will still be there for them when this is all concluded. And people need to know that they'll have a place to call home. Those are three things that are crucial right now. And those are three things that are at risk. If people lose their home in this crisis, not only will this be a moral failure, but it's also a public health risk. How can people self-isolate if they don't have a home? So it is our moral and or public health responsibility to ensure that people can stay in their homes. And that's why we've got to do everything possible to give people direct help, make sure we keep their jobs and make sure that we're protecting people's ability to stay in their homes.

CO: Okay. If I understand correctly, you support what the Trudeau government is proposing as to what kind of relief is going to give. But your sense is that it's not happening fast enough, that these things… This money is not getting out the door and into their hands as quickly as they need it?

JS: Yes. One of the biggest concerns I have is speed. And I think that that's one of the things that's lacking. These measures may not help people until April or even May in some cases. So we need to speed them up. I also think that we need to do a lot more. One of the recommendations I support — and I still support — is the wage subsidy of 10 per cent. The problem is that is too small an amount. We've seen other countries like Denmark proposing 75 per cent, U.K.'s doing 80 per cent, Sweden doing 90 per cent. This wage subsidy would support small businesses and businesses in general, but most importantly, it would keep people on the payroll so they would have a job to return to. And these folks would not need to apply for EI or any other fund. They would continue to receive their payment, their pay. And their jobs would be protected. That's why the wage subsidy model is being adopted by many countries. And it needs to be more than the 10 per cent, which is what the liberals have proposed right now. I will support that motion, but I'm encouraging them to increase that to reflect the need that we have as a country. We've seen a million people apply for EI in one week. There is a desperate situation brewing, and we need to protect people's jobs.

CO: How difficult is it to be in opposition right now, where your job is to keep prodding, to make sure that these things are moved along? And yet, we can't... You can't meet. You can't get together. Parliament is mostly shut down, except this rare occasion. And you are expected to show a kind of solidarity because we're in a crisis. What can you possibly do?

JS: Well, I think we can do both. I do acknowledge that the government is making some effort to help Canadians. And I believe the government wants to help Canadians. And that's a good thing. I think there's things that we can do better and we can do more quickly. And one of those examples is the wage subsidy. The government has proposed a wage subsidy, which is a good initiative. We just need that wage subsidy to be more significant and follow the other countries around the world. There is measures to give people direct income. That's a good thing. But we need to see it happen more quickly, and we need to see it happen immediately for all Canadians. And that's why we're proposing something like a universal basic income, directly sending $2,000 to all Canadians immediately.

CO: It's interesting to see what is happening south of the border with the United States, the political divisions, and what the Democrats and Republicans are establishing as their priorities. And they're not coming together, are they, they’re still quite far away from having any kind of agreement as to helping their people. What lessons do Canadian politicians need to take away from watching our neighbours to the south?

JS: Well, I think the whole management of this crisis in the States has been abysmal, and I think we can learn from that example, and we can learn from Italy, and we can learn from countries that got it right. And what we need to do right now is we have an opportunity to right now to do things right. When we talk about social distancing, there's an impossible choice that Canadians are being asked to make. Do they stay at home and prevent the spread of the illness, but also then wonder if they're going to be able to pay the bills? Or do they go to work and then risk exposing themselves or their loved ones to the risk of spreading the illness? We can help Canadians not have to make that impossible choice if we give them the help and support they need right now to stay at home, give them the confidence their homes won't be lost, they won't be evicted, they won't be forced to leave their homes. And we can make sure that they have money in their pockets now to buy food and put food on the table. I think we're at a crucial point. If we make the right decisions now, we can avoid the horrible calamity that happened in Italy with the massive loss of life that's still ongoing. And if we make the right choices now to stay home and socially distance, we can flatten the curve. We can help out the health care workers who are on the frontlines putting themselves at risk by saying we commit to reducing our contact as much as possible so that we can reduce the risk of spreading the illness.

CO: Mr Singh, we'll leave it there. I'm sure we'll be speaking again. But thank you for speaking with us tonight.

JS: My honour. Thank you.

CO: Take care.

CH: Jagmeet Singh is the leader of the federal NDP. We reached him today in Ottawa.

[Music: Horns!]

Italian city COVID success

Guest: Andrea Crisanti

CH: At the beginning of the coronavirus pandemic, the small Italian city of Vo had a dubious honour. It was the site of the county's first COVID-19 death. But as the virus has swept through Italy, Vo has become a beacon of hope. Doctors have been able to stop coronavirus in its tracks in the city. And Vo's success is now a model for other communities that are struggling to contain it. Andrea Crisanti is a professor of microbiology who led the experiment in Vo. We reached him in Padua, Italy.

CO: Professor Crisanti, what is the situation in Vo? Is the virus still contained there?

ANDREA CRISANTI: Yes, the good news is that we haven't had new cases in Vo since we did the last survey. And there was one case, but it was a relative of an infected person that was living in the same household. So that applied, let's say expected that these people are at very high risk.

CO: But you’re in a region, you're surrounded, by parts of Italy that had a drastic infection. So how did you do it? What is the secret that that Vo had that the others didn't?

AC: Well, the secret is that, first of all, was Vo was the first place where the epidemic started. And on that occasion, the city was locked down, and everybody was tested. So what happened, we could identify from the very beginning all those that were in the position to transmit the disease. Others were isolated. We identify 89 people out of about 3,300 inhabitants, which correspond to a frequency of three per cent, which we believe was an enormity. But the Italian authority completely overlooked this information. And 40 per cent of them were completely asymptomatic. Then on the second survey, we found eight new cases, again, all asymptomatic. We isolated them. And since then, there has been only one case that has originated from a family member. So no additional cases. Now, I believe that now that people of Vo are very careful. And in principle, they stay home and they try to preserve somehow that they are now a clean community in terms of infection.

CO: So what's different between what you're doing and what say we're doing here, other places are doing is that we're having a lot of the isolation, even places are locking down. They are not testing everybody that's in that locked down place. And so how important was that testing to the success that you've had?

AC: I think I believe, we believe, that that was crucial because we could identify all the people with the potential to transmit. They were isolated. And in principle, they couldn't transmit the disease to others. Now, if you do only the lockdown, the lockdown only can not necessarily leads to complete suppression of the disease. And I think I want to draw a comparison. If you remember the Diamond Princess, this ship with few cases, what they did, they did the tests only to those which were symptomatic. So you develop a symptom, you test positive, you were taken out of the ship. But day-by-day, cases, if you remember, they increase up to more than 700. So in this way, they couldn't stop the disease. They couldn't stop the disease, in spite of the fact that they were isolated. They were in a kind of quarantine. And the reason why they couldn't stop it because probably the ship was full of asymptomatic people that were spreading the virus. So this is a very interesting comparison, because on one hand, you have a community of 3,000 people living in a small village which was locked down. On another hand, you have a ship with a community of , again, about 3,000 people, which was locked down. Now, the difference is that in Vo, we tested everybody from the beginning. And we could isolate the people that were contagious.

CO: This is a very important distinction you're making, because… And now, we should point out that this is something you started, this is back in February, where you had, well, the first death in Italy from coronavirus. And that's when you began this. So at that time, even till recently, the protocol was that you tested people only if they came back, they were returning from a foreign place or from China or if they had symptoms. But there was very limited reasons to test. You ignored that and went through everybody.

AC: Yeah, we ignored that because we weren't convinced that the disease was transmitted only by symptomatic individuals. We found this quite implausible. And so this is the reason why we tested everybody.

CO: So this is talking about the town of Vo, 3,000 people, is it possible to turn that model, to do what you did in Vo to a much larger population — entire regions of Italy or regions of Canada?

AC: What has been done in Vo proved to be extremely effective at the beginning of the infection. So if you have a cluster of cases, then the best thing to do is to lock down the place, stand still, and test everybody, especially at the beginning of the infection. That the best thing you can do to stop the spread of infection. Now, when the epidemic is more widespread, then what you need to do, you have to combine several measures. Because, at that point, you fight on several fronts. You find you have to deal with people that are healed. So you need to have hospital resuscitation unit. Then, you need to implement quarantine, which unfortunately can never be 100 per cent because people have to go out to to buy food, to buy medicines. And there are some essential service that have to run. And so it's very difficult to implement 100 per cent standstill quarantine. But if you do active surveillance, let's say, around the people that are present with symptoms, rather than leaving them home and making no tests, I think what you should do, make the test, make the tests to the relatives, make the test to friends and family and then to the neighbourhood. Because if you assume that they were compliant with the quarantine, it's clear that the people that became heald must have taken the disease by their surroundings. So this is the way to go.

CO: All right. So just finally, if you could give some advice to us in Canada from the mistakes and the learnings [chuckling] that you had in Italy, what would you tell us... What to avoid in how we proceed?

AC: Well, I would suggest you do not underestimate. You act aggressively around each single case and cluster. For example, if you have a couple of cases in a condo, you lock down the entire condo and you test everybody. If you have a few case in a neighbourhood, then you lock down the neighbourhood, then you test everybody. That's the way to do it.

CO: Professor Crisanti, I appreciate your advice. And we're all trying to figure out how to do this. And so I appreciate what you had to tell us tonight. Thank you.

AC: You're welcome. Bye now. Bye. Thanks a lot. Bye-bye.

CH: Andrea Crisanti is a professor of microbiology. We reached him in Padua, Italy. You can find more on this story on our webpage at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Sombre rock]

FOA: Rhododendron rescue

[sc]

CO: Jimmy, how did this couple get stuck in a rhododendron forest?

JIMMY BARRY: Um, it's very easy to do because the rhododendron is growing behind the lake. And it's a quarry lake. It's formed by the ice many years ago. And it's very steep at the back. And then they went up the mountain behind it. And then they decided to take a kind of shortcut down. And they were drawn in like many people are drawn into the steep ground, and they just keep coming down and keep coming down. The rhododendron was growing knee-high, shoulder-high. And then all of a sudden, at about five o'clock in the evening, they couldn't… They found they couldn't get through it, and they were stuck, literally stuck.

CO: And what did your rescue team have to do?

JB: We had to... We got called out by the local police here in Ireland on a 9-9-9 call. And we arrived very quickly, within 15 minutes we were at the scene. And we could actually see... We made contact with the people by shouting across the small lake at them. And we could see where they were because they were waving. They were shaking one of the rhododendron trees. And it was we estimated it was only 400 meters in from the side of the lake in the back, and 100 metres up. Very simple. We go in on the right-hand side, and we go across. And this will be over in one hour.

CO: What happened?

JB: Unfortunately, for us, I'd never been in a rhododendron forest before. And when we started in, within ten metres of going into the rhododendron, we knew things had changed. Because the light disappeared. There's no light in there. All the ground covered the walls outside. Everything was dead. And it had turned into basically mush, and everything rotten, and everything smelly. So if you can put yourself in that situation, it turned into a jungle. And I didn't know we had jungle in Ireland, but I soon realized this. We kept going, and within a half-an-hour, we had only travelled 100 metres.

CO: Wow! And did you know... Because when you're out of it, you could see where the couple was because they could shake the, as you call, rhododendron. We call it rhododendron here [chuckling]. But the rhododendrons.

JB: Yeah.

CO: And is there a GPS or anything that could guide you to where they might be?

JB: We had to do the same as they did. We had a spotter on the other side of the lake, and we had a radio contact with him. And we shook the trees as well. So he let us know you’re 100 metres from them. You're 200 metres from them. Turn left, come down a bit. And that's how we actually got it.

CO: Oh my!

JB: So it took us two hours. It took us two hours, shaking the bushes, and literally crawling underneath.

CO: And then what happened when you reach them? How did you then proceed?

JB: We reached them, and they were delighted to see us. And we were actually delighted to see them because we were fed off of it as well. They were just too tired to move any further up or down. And so we made a decision then to move down. The easiest way we could go was down through the rhododendron, down to the lake beneath us. And if you can imagine standing on a branch of a tree and looking down and just slightly down at a severe angle and you can see the lake below you. But that lake is roughly 1000 metres away.

CO: A hundred metres of rhododendron forest in between?

JB: A hundred metres of rhododendron forest, which we actually walked from branch to branch to branch, all the way down. We doneTarzan and Jane on it. And we swung, and we worked our way down. There was eight of us, and there was the two people we were helping out as well. So it took us roughly over an hour, an hour-and--half to get down on those. And we never actually touched solid ground on the way down. It was all branches we came down on. And you can imagine the slime underneath and the hole lot. So it was pretty, pretty hairy coming down, but we could see the lake beneath us. When we got to the lakeshore, we were still sitting on branches above, but our bass team across the track had acquired motorboat, a small dinghy with an engine on it, came across and it took us out two by two. And we literally, because the rhododendron was growing ten feet out into the lake. We literally had to cut the branches off, get the boat in and fall into the boat.

CO: Good heavens! So you had to do this Tarzan-and-Jane-style getting out of the woods there. And then then even then you get to the boat, you were still hacking away at this?

JB: Yeah, we were still hacking away at it. And it was just... I've been in mountain rescue for 15 years. I've been a hill waled for nearly 40 years, I would say. And this was just so tiring. I've never experienced the heat underneath it because it was a warm day as well. And the smell and the slime. And everything just got to you. And we were covered in all that and our own sweat as well by the time we got out. And these things were up to ten metres tall underneath, and there was no light in there. So it is a problem here. And it's the first time, I think a mountain rescue team or any team in the British Isles came up with somebody stuck in this stuff.

CO: Now, people here in Canada know rhododendron as a bush that we carefully nurse into existence and hope it gets to be about two or three feet high before it dies in the winter. But I've seen what you're talking about, even in northern Scotland, in the Hebrides, I saw mountains of these rhododendron. They're beautiful, until you realise what a monster… It smothers everything underneath, doesn't it?

JB: I called it a monster as well. And it is beautiful. But when you... And I actually for all my years walking, I had never gone into this place. Me personally, as an environmentalist and an outdoorsman, I would love to see a nice mountainside of Irish header of bog or whatever. But rhododendron, I never want to go near it again.

CO: [hearty laughing] I hear you. I'll think of this next time I'm trying to... I'm planting rhododendron, hoping it lives.

JB:Yeah, I think, and that goes for every volunteer who went through it last Sunday night, and the people that were inside that we were caught off guard. It was nature telling us that, listen, I'm here, and I'm a sleeping monster, right? And we got caught by that monster.

CO: Beware the rhododendron. Jimmy, thank you.

JB: Thank you very much. Bye-bye.

CH: From our archives: Carol speaking with Irish rescue worker Jimmy Barry, in June of 2014. He had just helped save a couple lost in a forest of rhododendrons.

[Music: World music]

Part two: COVID-19: CBC, Jays chat

COVID-19: CBC

Guest: Barbara Williams

CH: As the COVID-19 crisis continues to grow, information is vital. And many Canadians are relying heavily on traditional media outlets to find out what is happening in their communities. So when the CBC decided last week to temporarily replace its local TV newscasts with a national broadcast out of Toronto, it provoked a backlash. Critics say local news is needed now more than ever. And that it's the CBC's obligation to provide it. Barbara Williams is the executive vice-president of English Services for CBC. We reached her in Toronto.

CO: Ms Williams, why did you feel it was necessary last week to temporarily cut the CBC’s local TV newscasts?

BARBARA WILLIAMS: Well, we hit an operational challenge last week. And so we made an operational decision to retrench a bit. To be clear, it wasn't an editorial decision at all. We want very much to continue to give the local information to all of our local audiences across the country. But, operationally, we were a bit under siege, and we needed to… We were on the brink there. We need to pull it back, stabilize and now rebuild. And make sure we get it all back for folks as quickly as we can.

CO: Okay. Without getting too technical, what happened?

BW: Well, you know, the easiest way I can think of to sort of describe it to folks is it's sort of like air traffic control. And we, with all of the extra activity, the extra press conferences, the extra live feeds, the briefings coming from so many ministers and health officials across the country. We had too many planes coming in to air traffic control. And so those that were in charge of it said like, woah, we got to redirect some planes. Then once we get things sort of reorganized, we can start bringing those planes back in and get back to normal. So we're in that rebuild stage right now of making sure the planes can all land safely.

CO: All right. So the CBC announced it's working to restore local TV news. They announced that today. And so does that mean that you have air traffic control is back in business that you can land all the planes?

BW: Yeah, we're pretty close to being able to get everything running again safely. The ambition is to get the supper hour newscasts up certainly within many days. We're not going to be able to get them all up in the next 24 hours or 48 hours. I don't want to, you know, promise something that we can't do. But through the rest of this week and into next week, the focus is on their supper time hours.

CO: Now, the local content is still to be carried on the national news network, is that right?

BW: Yes. We've had, you know, in the interim, not a perfect solution. But I think a smart interim solution has been to sort of let the local anchors actually take over an hour News Network and do a combined hour on News Network of local news and national news. And serve that up to audiences across the country at their local suppertime hours. So, you know, six o'clock in Atlantic region, there's a lot of local news being delivered in that hour from Tom Murphy and from Louise Martin and Harry Forestell, who are the anchors that our regional audiences out east are so used to seeing. And again, you know, Dwight Drummond, when we hit the Toronto time zone, and all the way out to Rob Brown in Calgary, to Mike out of Vancouver. So those anchors that our viewers are so familiar with and are looking to for their trusted local information.

CO: Okay, so it's still days, maybe a week away from being back. I'm sure you heard the premier of Prince Edward Island talking about how every day is vital. He said that Prince Edward Island is a largely rural province with varying Internet connectivity. Many island seniors do not have Internet. They don't have social media. They don't pay attention to digital news. They are the most vulnerable islanders and need the most up to date information to protect themselves. He was very angry about the decision to shut down the supper hour show in P.E.I.. What do you say to the premier?

BW: Well, hey, I totally understand the frustration of our viewers. And I totally understand why the premier would be standing up and making those comments to support their interests. I think, you know, we do still offer local news from the P.E.I. anchor, Louise Martin, on this news network. And it shows up on the main network. So everybody in P.E.I. that turns on their TV will still see Louise there, giving them some of that local news. Not as much as they're used to getting in the moment, I totally appreciate. There is radio, of course, too, which is huge and very, very successful in P.E.I. And we're super proud of all the local information that's available on radio. But all that said, our effort, our determination is to get Compass, which is the name of that suppertime show out on P.I.E to get it back to folks as soon as we can. And you can imagine it will be a priority.

CO: All right. On the radio thing, just to point out that in rural Canada, the radio service can be very spotty. And that quite often one region is getting another region's news and weather. So it's not the most reliable place. It is for so many, especially seniors, key to being able to get those TV newscasts. When Louise Martin, or Tom Murphy, or Harry Forestell all comes into the living room, those are their friends. Those are familiar faces they know. Is that a priority for the CBC?

BW: Yes, it is. It is the magic of this business that we're in is that relationship that you've just described of what a viewer starts to come to learn and trust and know about somebody who comes into their living room, and it is a very special relationship that we cultivate with our audiences. And when we let them down, as unfortunately due to this operational bump, you know, we feel we have a little bit here in these past couple days. We absolutely feel the responsibility of that. And the determination then to do whatever we can do in the short-term by making sure Louise and Tom and Harry are there on News Network when people turn on the main network, they still get them. And then to get the full newscast back as soon as we can. And that commitment to local is unwavering. And we are frustrated by our operational challenges and determined to overcome them.

CO: And yet, at the moment when the system was close to collapse, and CBC had to make very big decisions very quickly, what message does it send to Canadians that you saw a local TV news as the most expendable part?

BW: Well, I think we didn't see it that way. I can appreciate that point of view. I think what we saw was an opportunity to be sure we could try in a crunch to do a bit of everything. To be sure that what we're huge breaking national stories that the entire country was absolutely interested in and hanging on every word that we were still providing all of that as much as possible to everybody. And combining that with some substantial local news from each and every place in the country. So we worked really hard to come up with a very smart decision in a fast crunch mode to be sure we were trying to do a little bit of everything and serve everyone the very best we could. And then commit to rebuilding to get more of that local flavour back to people as quickly as we could.

CO: Okay. But just finally, doesn't it signal to Canadians that you might do it again? That if you had to reorder priorities very quickly, even permanently, the TV news, those local newscasts are something that you don't have as a priority when the crunch comes?

BW: No, I don't think it does say that. Actually, I think it says that we understand that TV is a complicated technological event that, you know, we had a bump with. And that we are working quickly to fix. And in the interim, we are making sure that we are supporting our other platforms as aggressively as we can. So we don't leave anybody ever stranded without any information. And that the commitment is there to use the resources we have to keep supporting local in every way we can.

CO: We will leave it there. Ms Williams, thank you.

BW: No problem. Nice to talk to you, Carol.

CO: Bye-bye.

CH: Barbara Williams is the executive vice-president of English Services for CBC. We reached her in Toronto.

COVID comedian

[sc]

BRIAN AYLWARD: What are ya up, b’ys? Today is day eight of self-isolation for me here in Bangkok, Thailand. I'm from Mount Pearl, Newfoundland, but Bangkok is home right now. Been watching Land & Sea reruns on YouTube, and drinking too much Thai whisky. Feeling saucy here now. [raising his voice] Get in the house out of it, b’ys! Stay inside, save lives. What's on the go? All right. Never mind going downtown or going to house parties and shed parties. You buncha half-skulls. Never mind what's Sheila got to say at all. She only got her grade 11. Sheila don’t know sh… I’m just gonna pop over to the store now and get a bag of Hickory Sticks and go over to Nans to see how she's doing. All right, Sheila, if you bring the virus over to Nan’s then Nan is gonna be six feet under. Is that what you want, Sheila? there’s your social distancing, you dummy? Sorry about the language, Nan. The least we can do is help out the old crowd. They got us through two world wars and much more. All right? All we gotta do is stay inside the house and do nothin. All right? Listen, regardless, we're gonna get through this, Okay? And by the way, why is Tim Hortons at the airport still open? Do they got a new vaccine, Donna? Yeah, I have a I have a COVID coffee and a Corona cream, please. Gentle Christ, b’ys. Well, you know what? Anyway, we're gonna get through this. I'm Buddy in Bangkok. Cheers. Happy coughing.

[/sc]

CH: That's Newfoundland comedian Brian Aylward ranting from Bangkok, Thailand — reminding all of us to practice safe social distancing.And to quit sharing Hickory Sticks for the time being.

Jays chat

Guest: Jamie Campbell

CH: The start of the Major League Baseball season is just one of many big days on the sports calendar that's been pushed back because of COVID-19. So Jamie Campbell has found other ways to stay busy. Mr. Campbell is the host of Blue Jays Central on Sportsnet. Normally, he'd be busy every day analyzing the team on the air. Instead, over the past week, he's been calling fans stuck at home, to try to raise their spirits. We reached Jamie Campbell in Toronto.

CO: Jamie, how did this idea occur you to start calling up Blue Jays fans?

JAMIE CAMPBELL: Oh, Carol, I was just riding my bike in as much isolation as I could find, and was thinking of ways that I could help other people through social media since we're all confined. And it occurred to me that over the years, whenever someone had approached me in a public place to make a comment of some kind, they would often say, oh, my grandmother loves you, or my dad watches the show all the time. And I would often say, well, hey, let's give him a phone call right now. [CO laughs warmly] And I'd stand there with complete strangers talking to their parents or their grandparents. And the reaction was always wonderful. And the people on the other end of the line were so surprised to hear from me. And I just loved doing it. So I thought, this is a perfect time, given that I really don't have a job right now because there's no baseball [laughing]l. I can spend some time reaching out to, you know, the legions of Blue Jays fans that watch our show and our ballgames every single night of the summer.

CO: So how many how many did you expect? How many people would take you up on his offer, would you anticipate?

JC: I think I thought maybe I'd get one hundred requests, and I'm well over 2,000 now.

CO: [laughing] You're calling up 2,000 people?

JC: Well, it depends on how long we're held inside, right? I guess I'm at the mercy of COVID-19. But I hope I don't have to [CO chuckles]. I hope at some point we're all allowed to go out and live our lives in normalcy, and I get back to work doing Blue Jays baseball, and I just don't have the time to call people. But for now, I'm going to continue.

CO: All right. So you call them up, and Blue Jays fans know your voice. And so how did they react when they hear you?

JC: Many of them think it's a hoax. I've had some people hang up on me. One lady, I'll never forget this, was so overwhelmed when she heard my voice, she didn't know what to say, because her granddaughter had warned her that I might call, that she burst into tears and hung up on me because she just didn't know what to say. And I didn't realize that she'd done this. And I didn't think I wanted to call back because I didn't know how she'd respond. And thankfully, I called back. She explained what had happened, and we ended up having a marvellous conversation for about 20 minutes.

CO: You have had a number of quite memorable conversations. Can you tell us a couple of it really stuck out?

JC: Yeah, there are a few. I spoke with one lady who really didn't follow baseball at all. And back in 2016. She was diagnosed with cancer. And somewhere around July 1st, she began chemotherapy. And it was suggested to her that maybe she tune in to the ball game. It was the Canada Day special, which is always just a wonderful experience. So she watched a Canada Day game between the Blue Jays and Cleveland for basically the first time. And that game ended up famously going 19 innings. And she was so riveted, [CO chuckling] she hasn't stopped watching baseball since. And it helped her through chemotherapy. And it's just sort of brightened her life. And I'm just thrilled to hear that.

CO: Any others? Any other conversations?

JC: Yeah. You know, I spoke with a man on Vancouver Island, who was diagnosed with brain cancer eleven years ago, and they’d gave him six months to a year to live. And he is still, obviously, doing very, very well. And when we talked to said, well, are you from Vancouver Island originally? He said, no, I’m from the United States. But when I was 18 or 19 years old, in the late 60s, I was drafted into the army to serve in Vietnam. And I decided I wanted nothing to do with the war. So I escaped to Canada.

CO: Wow!

JC: Yeah.

CO: Amazing stories. I mean, you're calling these people up in order to chat baseball, but then you get these other anecdotes and stories that you have been relaying to many people. So do you ever talk baseball with them [laughing]?

JC: Rarely [hearty laughing]. We rarely talk about baseball. I mean, baseball is the fabric of the conversation because a lot of them will repeat these wonderful stories about experiences that they've had depending on on where they were and who they were with and games that they saw. But oftentimes, it's a conversation about family. I spoke with one couple in London, Ontario, The LotTs, L-O-T-T. And their daughters are on the frontline right now. One of them is actually in an E.R. in Michigan somewhere. And they are doing their part to help people. And we had this extensive conversation, and half the time, I’m 15, 20 minutes into our conversation and realized we haven't even touched on baseball yet.

CO: What effect is this is having on you? I mean, you're hearing these stories, all these people. It's usually just a one-way street. You're just broadcasting to them about baseball. And now you're hearing from all the people who watch you about their lives.

JC: It's had a profound impact on me in that I am absolutely privileged to be able to call complete strangers and invite myself into their lives and have them open up to me about who they are and what makes them tick. Because my thinking is if I didn't have the job that I have, and didn't have the profile that I have, if I was just really a complete stranger who operated, I don't know, a car dealership in Kenora, my call probably wouldn't be well received. [CO chuckles] But it's automatically received because of what I do for a living and the fact they see me on their televisions most summers. And that's a privilege for me.

CO: People's lives revolve around things like, well, if it could be music or art or baseball or sports. And these things, they plan their days and weeks and months, even their operations as we're hearing around these sporting events. What kind of hole is this leaving in their lives that the baseball season isn't happening?

JC: It seems to be leaving a gigantic hole on a daily basis. When you think about it, the season was supposed to begin Thursday, and so many people, especially in their later years, rely on baseball every single day. It's that one best friend that they know is gonna be there on their television screens at night or during the day if it's on a weekend. And they put it in their calendars to make sure they're home by 6:30 or 7 o'clock Eastern Time to tune into the ballgame and see what the ball club is doing. It's almost like that reliable friend. And suddenly that friend isn't around anymore. And it's just left this real gaping hole in their daily routine.

CO: Well, let's just hope it all starts up again real soon.

JC: Wouldn't that be nice?

CO: I know you got lots of calls to make, so I’ll let you go [laughing].

JC: Thank you, Carol. Nice to speak with you.

CO: You too, Jamie. Bye.

CH: Jamie Campell is the host of Blue Jays Central on Sportsnet. We reached him in Toronto.

[Music: Ambient]

Manu Dibango obit

[Music: Instrumestral]

CO: But now, when Canada became the first country to say that Team Canada would not be going, did you have a moment when you thought they might go ahead with the Olympics and we aren't going to be there?

EW: Maybe, perhaps like one singular moment to have that fear. But this is so much bigger than sport. And, you know, I watch the news, and I see all of the amazing frontline health care workers and emergency services workers that are trying to manage this pandemic. And, you know, sport is, you know, for me, the centre of my universe. But again, this is so much bigger than sport. And I just.. I felt immediately that it was the right decision.

CO: We interviewed Hayley Wickenheiser the other night, and that was what she was saying. And this is someone who is not an athlete, who has competed, who loved being an athlete and being in sports. But there now is training to be a physician. So she was seeing both sides of it. And she said, no, this is so much bigger than sport. And there will always be sports after this. Do you agree with Hayley?

EW: Oh, 100 per cent. I mean, we're so fortunate to have such an amazing advocate, an ambassador like Hayley Wickenheiser. She's always been unapologetic about speaking truth to power at the IOC level. And she's, you know, a role model for me. You know, many days ago, she was the first athlete to really speak out about this. And she has so much power in her voice. And then, you know, for the Canadian Olympic Committee to be the first nation to say we will not send athletes, you know, I think it talks. It speaks about Canada's position in the sport landscape globally. I think we represent integrity in sport and, you know, supportive athlete-first sport. And, you know, it's crazy to even talk about sport in today's times. But I think sports is a vehicle to to bring people together and to celebrate humanity. And exactly what she said, you know, there will be sport after this and we will come together. And, you know, I think that in Tokyo 2021 [soft chuckle], that it will be, you know, hopefully an amazing celebration to celebrate humanity. And that's what gets me excited.

CO: You just recently qualified, though, for the Tokyo Olympics. And I just wonder what was that moment like? [chuckling] That was quite a match. Nobody was there as far as an audience goes. What was the moment like for you?

EW: [warm chuckling] There’s a lot of emotions associated with qualifying for the games. In some ways, there's more pressure on punching your ticket than actually competing, I find. And, of course, competing in an empty arena amidst this growing global pandemic, there was a lot of uncertainty as to if we were going to even we're going to be able to compete. And I was just trying to focus on, you know, what my tactical and technical plans were. And just being in the moment. And, you know, I felt a lot of pressure, and I actually didn’t wrestle well. I'm just such a competitor at heart. And I was actually disappointed. And had to remind myself like, oh, no, okay, you just qualified for the Olympics [CO chuckles warmly]. And I just feel I still have, you know, so much more to give. And I had that moment in Rio when I won an Olympic gold medal. And I felt so much support behind me. And, you know, I want to do it again for Canada. So it's a lot of pressure, but it's a true privilege.

CO: But when you think of, now, you've been in the Olympics, you've won gold. You know, all those sensations. When you think of your fellow athletes, not just those on Team Canada, all those young people who were building to their first great moment of being on that International stage. What do you think they're going through right now?

EW: You know, I've been speaking with some of the high school wrestlers across Canada that are feeling disappointed because their high school national wrestling championships have been postponed indefinitely. And they feel like their season has been stolen from them. And so this is something that, you know, athletes at any level have felt like they've lost an amazing opportunity. And you know, what I say is that nothing has taken away how you have developed in the process. The technical and training skills, but also the person that you've become. And I think, you know, Olympic athletes are so much more than just the one day that they compete at the Olympic Games. They are, you know, they get all of these amazing attributes and experiences that they grow into over their lifetime. And I also think that it's kind of fun to see how dangerous, how much more dangerous like I'll be in one year's time [CO chuckles]. And then when I think about the young athletes that, you know, now have one extra year to train, to prepare, to really showcase their skills on the Olympic stage. So it's really exciting.

CO: Erica, we look forward with bated breath to see you on that Olympic stage in 2021. And I thank you so much for speaking with us.

EW: Thank you.

CO: Take care.

CH: Erica Wiebe is a Canadian Olympic wrestler who will be competing in what are now the 2021 Tokyo Olympics. We reached her in Calgary. And you can find more on that story on the As It Happens website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Ambient]

Florida archeology

Guest: Sara Ayers-Rigsby

AH: Archaeology isn't usually a field where things need to move quickly. When the time scale is in the thousands of years, what's another ten or twenty? But along Florida's coastline, rising sea levels have meant rising urgency. Now, a growing number of archaeologists are fighting a ticking clock to document whatever history they can, before climate change takes it. Sara Ayers-Rigsby is one of them. She's a regional director with the Florida Public Archaeology Network, who's working to prioritize Florida's archaeological sites for excavation and analysis. We reached her in Boca Raton.

CO: Sara, first of all, tell us a bit about some of these places that you and your colleagues are are working to save. What kind of sites are we talking about?

SARA AYERS-RIGSBY: So we're looking at really all evidence for human history in Florida. Anything from a site that people were first exploiting, you know, fourteen-thousand years ago, perhaps a spring or something like that through, you know, coastal World War Two or even Cold War-era sites. So all of these sites are at risk, and these sites are telling the whole story of Florida from the first human occupation through the present.

CO: And the sea level rising is the chief threat to these sites, is that right?

SAR: Yes, especially our coastal sites. But unfortunately, sea level rise is not the only threat. We're also looking at increased storm surge, increased erosion, even things like increased possibility of looting. So when we have unfortunately, major storms that could expose a site that's perhaps been protected until then, that can be a factor as well. So there's multiple factors that are impacting these very sensitive sites.

CO: And are you already seeing that damage?

SAR: Yes, we are. So at some of our coastal sites, we could go out one week and then come back a month later and see visible change at the site. So at some of our coastal sites are often what's called shell middens or shell mounds. So middens are essentially ancient trash piles. And then these shell mounds are more sort of purpose-built. And we see wave action eroding these sites. So you might see the sites dramatically reduced in size over the course of even just a few months.

CO: What are some of the older sites. What are the oldest locations that you're trying to save at this point?

SAR: So I've worked on a couple of archaic period sites that we're trying to document. So the archaic period in Florida is about anywhere from 3,000 all the way to about 7,000 years ago. During the archaic period, people were actually coping with climate change back then as well. So people who were living along the coast at that time were experiencing significant change from, you know, a glacial climate where sea levels were significantly lower than they are today to our modern climate. So people would have essentially during that period been making these radical changes to their lifestyles, going from this hunter-gathering society, following megafauna, these big animals like Mammoth into a more modern society where they would have been hunting things like deer and gathering more modern plants.

CO: And in addition to the middens and the mounds that might be washed away. Are there artefacts that we stand to lose?

SAR: Yes. Unfortunately, we do see artefacts that are eroding onto our coastlines, that are eroding onto our rivers. So some artefacts may be destroyed during this process. Some are simply carried out to sea. So, yes, we are seeing that as well.

CO: Are you doing kind of a triage at this point? Are you trying to figure out what can be saved? Because these things are, as you describe, they can happen over days and weeks and months. So how are you prioritising what you're going to try and salvage?

SAR: Down here, the Florida Public Archaeology Network has been working with Palm Beach County and some of the other counties down here in southeast Florida to try and prioritize based on not only the risks to the site that are posed by climate change, but also based on the amount of information we already have about the site. Because, unfortunately, we can't simply save these sites by building a seawall around all of them. You know, we have 1,6000 sites that are going to be impacted by a one-metre rise in sea level.

CO: So the idea is that you can't preserve them. You're just going to try and document them and take what you can and try and salvage that?

SAR: Yes. I mean, I wish more than anything that it was possible to save all of them. That's just not possible. And as archaeologists, we're really focussed on on the story these sites are going to be able to tell us before they're washed away. So that's where we want to focus our efforts on. You know, I think when we discuss climate change, we often think about how climate change is going to impact our future. But, of course, it's also destroying our past as well.

CO: You say it's not just these ancient sites, but also things, contemporary things from the 19th and 20th century. And how vulnerable are they?

SAR: Yes. So there's been really phenomenal work from the University of Florida, and that they've been actually doing terrestrial laser scanning on some of the art deco-era buildings in Miami Beach. So, you know, those are early 20th century buildings that are a threat too. And this is, you know, an area where people like to go out and party and see that phenomenal art deco architecture. That's what it's known for. And that's at risk as well.

CO: How rapidly is the Florida coast eroding at this point?

SAR: Oh, that's a question for you. Coastal geomorphologist, I'm afraid [dryly chuckling].

CO: What do you think you're dealing with here as far as the speed with which this coast is disappearing?

SAR: So I've seen conservative estimates that suggest a three-foot rise in sea level is possible by twenty-one hundred.

CO: That's a lot of territory that's going to disappear.

SAR: Yes, absolutely. And, unfortunately, it's the territory that we consider it as modern Floridians. We think it's a great place to live now. Right, you know, along the coast where you have these lovely beach houses. But as I like to say, if it's a good place to live now, it's been a good place to live for thousands of years. So. So those sites are going to be impacted, too.

CO: All right, Sara. Well, best of luck with your work. And thanks for speaking with us.

SAR: Thank you so much, Carol. I really appreciate your time.

CO: Bye.

SAR: Okay. Bye-bye.

AH: Sara Ayers-Rigsby is a regional director with the Florida Public Archaeology Network. Her region is hosted at Florida Atlantic University and we reached her in Boca Raton. And thanks to NPR for its initial reporting on the work of Sara and her colleagues.

[Music: Instrumental]

FOA: Belfast woman

BF: You thought that you could mobilize them against something else, and they turned against you?

BW: No. actually, we went up to say that we fully agreed with them coming out to say that the British army had committed an act of violence, but I think they were under the impression in that particular area that this is totally a provisional IRA-slamming campaign. When, actually, it's a slamming campaign for all violence.

BF:What does your family think of it?

BW: Well, my husband, he was sort of trying to protect me. One side, the other side. He's very annoyed that nobody actually hit him. Because if your standing beside your wife, he's getting abuse. It's terribly hard for a man to sort of take that, you know?

BF: Did he go because he supports you, or because he thought there was danger yesterday?

BW: My husband and I walk in all these alleys together, and we go to the meetings together. He’s fully behind me. He doesn't want to see me get hurt naturally.

BF: Did you go into this thinking that you might end up a martyr?

BW: God knows I don't want to be a martyr. My husband and I have discussed that. If either of us have to die for any reason, which believe me, I don't think anything is worth dying for. And I want to bounce my grandchildren off my knee. I'm not an idiot. I'm just a human being. But if necessary, I will die. And my only stipulation is there will be no heroes at all.

BF: You've thought about this a lot in the last 24 hours?

BW: We've thought about this since the start of the peace movement, not just in the last 24 hours. These are things when we started we were prepared to face.

[/sc]

CH: Betty Williams speaking to As It Happens in the fall of 1976. She would go on to share the Nobel Peace Prize that year for her efforts to end the violence in Northern Ireland. Betty Wiliams died last week. She was 76 years old.

CH: Right now, a lot of us are working from home. And that, strangely enough, includes the Toronto Symphony Orchestra. Earlier this week, the TSO released a video performance of Aaron Copland's "Appalachian Spring" — a piece originally commissioned during the Second World War. The more-than-two-dozen musicians weren't together, though: they used cell phones to capture themselves playing individually at home. Then principal double bassist Jeffrey Beecher edited the performances together — showing you don't have to be physically together to be a great ensemble.

March 24, 2020 Episode Transcript

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