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The AIH Transcript for April 14, 2020

Hosts: Piya Chattopadhyay and Chris Howden

Prologue

PIYA CHATTOPADHYAY: Hello. I'm Piya Chattopadhyay, sitting in for Carol off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

PC: Timing is everything. Spain is sending many workers back to their jobs, but a doctor we first spoke to last month says the plan to get the country working is too much-too soon and it's risking people's lives.

CH: Never the twain shall meet. South Dakota's governor refuses to enact stay-at-home orders even after a coronavirus outbreak at a pork plant, leaving city councillors to take matters into their own hands.

PC: Hive mind. Canadian beekeepers organize a chartered flight to pick up desperately needed workers in Nicaragua and help out some stranded Canadians in the process.

CH: Copping a platitude. We reached the writer behind the eerily familiar new poem entitled "The First Lines of Emails I've Received While Quarantining."

PC: Risk and reward. Justin Trudeau faces questions about how he'll get the country's short-staffed long term care homes running safely during the pandemic.

CH: And there are two sides to every story. And in this one, from our archives, both sides are home to squirrels. But even after a Dutch city built a squirrel bridge over a road so they could mate, those rodents refuse to go all that way, to go all the way. As It Happens. The Tuesday Edition. Radio that isn't here to critter-size.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Please don't send people back to work yet, ER doctor urges Spanish government

Spain Back to Work

Guest: Ana Gimenez

CH: Spain remains one of the world's hardest hit countries when it comes to COVID-19. And yet hundreds of thousands of non-essential workers across the country are heading back to work this week on construction sites and in factories. The government says that is the appropriate decision given a slowly decreasing rate of infection. But many doctors disagree. Among them, Dr. Ana Gimenez, who we last spoke with in March. We reached her again today in Madrid.

PC: Dr. Gimenez, what went through your mind when you heard that many nonessential workers would be headed back to their jobs and job sites across Spain?

ANA GIMENEZ: Most of my colleagues and I are a little bit scared about this because they have decided to reopen the jobs without doing the test. And the workers have no good masks. And so that's absolutely crazy. And also, they are not doing normal screening as other countries have done.

PC: The central government of Spain, though, says although more than 18,000 people have now died in your country, the death rate is slowing. It is the smallest proportional daily increase from yesterday, Monday, until today. Does that not give you confidence that the epidemic is slowing down?

AG: Yes, it's going down. But because of the reopening of the jobs maybe a new wave will come. Who knows? There is no planning. The government is just acting because they think that they have to reopen just to avoid the absolute crack of the economy. But the protective measures are not done.

PC: And as you said when we spoke to about three weeks ago, people in your hospital were dying quickly. The number of cases in Madrid was rising. And at that time, you told us that there weren't enough gowns. There weren't enough masks. There weren't even enough beds. Is that still the situation?

AG: No. Absolutely not. The situation is much much better. Now we have enough space, enough beds. There is still a problem with the critical services. They are still with a lot of patients. But we can work without that panic. Now, if you come to my hospital, you will see a lot of people with masks but sitting on chairs, not on the floor. So there are much much less patients. But still a lot of them are really really with a bad infection that need critical attention. And there is still a problem at the critical services.

PC: And so given what you've just said, that things are improving, what concerns you about the government sending hundreds of thousands of nonessential workers back to their jobs?

AG: What I feel is that they didn't do what they have to. For example, until last Thursday, at last, I have seen good waterproof coats in my hospital -- one month after the crisis started. So in this way, I think that maybe when the crisis finishes, we will have the test for the population and for the citizens. So the things that are done are too slow and too bad. The only measure that has been done was to close everything and make people stay at home. That is the only measure they have done and done well. So why do they reopen now? If we don't have protective measures, what are you thinking? I don't know. What they are thinking? Nobody knows.

PC: Well, why do you believe that your government is easing these restrictions? What do you think accounts for that decision?

AG: I think that they know that for the economy it's a bad idea to remain without doing nothing. I really don't know why they are acting this bad. I don't know. They spend the whole day in TV talking to people, telling that they are doing a lot of things. But the only thing they are doing this to fight with their opposition political parties. It's like they hope that things go better. Yes, because of the time pass. But remember that this week in Italy, again, they have had more people dying again. So this is not going to stop soon. And I think that the government must protect the workers. They must do something please.

PC: And so what would that look like? What would a responsible return to some normalcy for some people to work look like?

AG: I need tests. I need screening. I need to know how many people at a factory have had the virus or not. And if there's a few people having the virus, then they can reopen. And if they find that a lot of people have the virus in a factory, then maybe it will be a good idea to wait a couple of weeks more before reopen. Really I'm not an epidemiologist -- I'm not. But common sense makes me feel that things are not well done.

PC: Given that you think it is too early to lift some of the measures that Spain has and given that you were on the front lines battling this coronavirus on the front lines, what message is your government sending to you?

AG: No, no, there's no messages. They are not thinking about us. They are thinking about themselves. They know that we are going to work until we get exhausted. And so every single phrase they say they are thinking about next election. They are not thinking about the health of the people. Most of the things that are well done are because of the effort of the workers, not because of the political help.

PC: Dr. Gimenez we will leave it there. I thank you very much once again for helping your fellow people in your country combat this virus and for the good work you do. Thank you.

AG: Bye. Thank you.

CH: Ana Gimenez is a doctor in Madrid. That's where we reached her. And you can find more on this story on our webpage: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Apiary Workers

Guest: Rod Scarlett

CH: Yesterday, 40 Canadians who'd been stranded in Nicaragua finally came home and they have a bunch of beekeepers to thank for that. The beekeepers are part of the Canadian Honey Council, which organized a chartered flight to Managua this week. Dozens of skilled workers from Nicaragua bound for Canadian apiaries boarded that flight. And luckily for those stranded Canadians, there were extra seats on the plane. Rod Scarlett is the executive director of the Canadian Honey Council. We reached him in Sherwood Park, Alberta.

PC: Mr. Scarlett, did you ever imagine that in your career as a beekeeper that you would be organizing chartered planes to faraway countries?

ROD SCARLETT: No. I think somewhere in the vocabulary things got mixed up between Apiary and Aviary. [Laughter]

PC: And yet here you are having organized a flight from Nicaragua.

RS: Yeah. But there was lots of help involved in doing that too.

PC: Well, how did you and your colleagues, as you say, you had help at the honey council arrive at this idea to organize this plane?

RS: Well, beekeepers employ somewhere between 1500 and 2000 temporary foreign workers in a season from various locations across the world. But one of these locations, Nicaragua, there were no flights. And nobody really looks after the beekeepers in arranging flights as an organization. It's up to individual businessmen to do it themselves. So we were kind of put in the position where we had to make a decision whether as an industry we begin to help out those that were going to experience some pretty substantial losses if we don't provide them with the opportunity to get workers.

PC: Well, apiarists don't just make honey, you know that very well. They pollinate fruit and vegetable farms. So help a gal out who doesn't know anything about this side of the business. What would the consequences be to the Canadian food supply chain if these bee colonies were to collapse?

RS: Well, about two-thirds of the food that we eat relies on pollination. Now, certainly all that does not occur in Canada. It is probably about a third of what we eat on our plate is a result of pollination. And that will occur as a result of honeybees and other pollinators. That includes things like cucumbers, squashes, pumpkins, sunflowers, pretty much all your fruits and berries and canola. So all of those things, if we weren't able to maintain the capacity to provide pollination for those other commodities, consumers would definitely feel the impact.

PC: And so you brought some of these beekeepers from Nicaragua and what expertise do these particular workers from Nicaragua have that you can't find here in Canada?

RS: Well, there's a couple things. One is that it is seasonal work. They're coming in you know, April to May to the end of September or early October. So it's not a full-time job. And that certainly discourages a lot of Canadians from applying, because it's not something that's ongoing. It's seasonal. The second component of this is a lot of these workers are skilled. They have to be able to identify a queen in a colony of 40 to 60 thousand bees. They have to know what the brood looks like, how many eggs are sufficient for the queen to lay. So it's not as simple as I would say in quotation marks, "grunt labour." It is a really skilled job that not a lot of Canadians are interested in doing because it is seasonal, but also because there is -- I wouldn't say a degree of danger -- but you're going to get stung daily multiple times.

PC: So there is a level of expertise to doing this job. And as you say, every year it's seasonal work. This year, though, is different. There are a lot of out of work Canadians right now as well. Have you been getting calls from people asking about working?

RS: Oh, yes. And you know commercial beekeepers across the country have hired Canadian workers. There is no doubt. And every year it's mandatory in the programs that we are involved in that advertising goes out to Canadian workers. We just haven't seen a lot of people apply. We have seen an influx of applications this year and we're able to adapt and address those needs. But you still need skilled workers there to be able to train and teach and supervise unskilled people.

PC: It would be one thing for you just to have brought beekeepers to Canada, but you also helped out stranded Canadians in Nicaragua. Some of them came home on this flight. How did that come about?

RS: It kind of started out with no idea what our organization was getting into when we were looking at chartering a flight. So one of the first contacts we made was with Global Affairs Canada. We had an idea on the number of workers that had all their papers ready to come in, and we knew the size of the plane. We knew we weren't going to fill up the plane. And so we contacted global affairs and told them we are going to charter, we do have space on this plane, is there a need or a want by anybody wanting to come back to Canada? The embassy down in Costa Rica that looks after Nicaragua was very helpful in engaging the Canadians that were from Nicaragua. And we were able to bring back 39 of them yesterday.

PC: And how did it feel to bring Canadians home?

RS: It is rewarding. It was kind of a dual purpose. It's rewarding that we were able to serve our industry by bringing up skilled workers. But it's also rewarding as a Canadian, knowing that our industry was able to help out.

PC: Mr. Scarlett, I thank you for your time. And I'm sure the Canadians that you helped to bring home are very appreciative of your efforts as well. Thank you.

RS: Thank you very much.

CH: Rod Scarlett is the executive director of the Canadian Honey Council. He was in Sherwood Park, Alberta.

[Music]

Justin Trudeau

CH: Prime Minister Trudeau says he's working with the premiers to make sure the residents of Canada's care homes get the help they need. The pandemic is hitting the residents in the often poorly paid staff of those facilities particularly hard. Last night we told you about the Heron Care Home. More than 30 residents of that Montreal area home died in just over three weeks. As the pandemic left them desperately short of staff. Here's some of what the prime minister told reporters today.

[sc]

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: We recognize the terrible and tragic stories that have come out of seniors residences at long term care facilities across this country. And our hearts go out to families who've lost loved ones in some terrible ways. We know we need to do more, and that is why we are highlighting how important it is, not just for ourselves, but for our loved ones, for our health care workers, for our seniors, that we continue to follow directions, that we stay home as much as possible, that we keep two metres apart wherever we can, and that we continue to wash our hands regularly. We need to make sure that our seniors who are most vulnerable to this are protected. As mentioned, seniors residences are provincially mandated. But the federal government has put forward guidelines for across the country on making sure that our seniors are protected.

REPORTER: You said that you're going to have more news about essential workers and the CERB in the coming week. But employees at long term care facilities are already leaving their jobs. You brought parliament back and you passed the wage subsidy this weekend, but there was no specific help included for the long term care industry. What specifically is your government going to do now to keep long term care facilities properly staffed so that the new guidelines your government implemented this weekend can be followed?

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: We were in conversation with the provinces right now on moving forward on a model of increasing support for long term care workers and other workers in essential industries -- like Quebec has done -- to ensure that people are motivated and encouraged financially as well because it's something that they believe in deeply to continue caring for our most vulnerable.

[/sc]

CH: Prime Minister Trudeau speaking to reporters this morning in Ottawa.

[Music]

FOA: Squirrel Bridge

CH: Oh, they'll happily move into your attic and mate repeatedly on your old high school yearbooks. But build them an actual bridge so they can safely cross a major roadway inmate. Suddenly, they're all prudish and respectful of human property. As we've established on this program, squirrels are among nature's biggest small jerks. And tonight's story from the archives is proof. Four years ago, Carol spoke with Arjen Dubbelaar, a city councilor in The Hague, the Netherlands. The Hague had spent $200,000 on a bridge built specifically for squirrel safety. But after two years, almost none of them had used it. And the single digit crossings had that councillor feeling double crossed. From our archives, here's Carol's conversation with Arjen Dubbelaar on March 25th, 2016.

CO: Arjen Dubbelaar, can you describe the squirrel bridge for us?

ARJEN DUBBELAAR: Well, it's difficult. You probably have to see it because this bridge is specially designed for squirrels and it's across the roads.

CO: It is a very sleek looking bridge. We're going to post a picture of it. But how long has the bridge been there?

AD: It's now there for two years. And the squirrels are not using it because in the first year it was only used by three squirrels. And the second year -- last year -- it was only two.

CO: You've gone out to count the numbers of squirrels who use the bridge?

AD: Yeah, well, they told me that there is a type of system that will make a registration when a squirrel will cross it. That's why they know the numbers of how many squirrels have already passed the bridge.

CO: So they have data on the numbers of squirrels passing over your squirrel bridge.

AD: Yeah. Can you believe that? [Laughs]

CO: Okay, just explain why they built the bridge?

AD: Basically there is this forest and you have a road in the middle and there's a forest on one side of the road and there's a forest on the other side of the road. And I looked it up this afternoon. I didn't know the word for yeah it’s in-breeding and to prevent in-breeding. They have this bridge so the squirrels on one side of the road can have sex with the squirrels on the sides to prevent in-breeding. That should be necessary. But I just think it's weird to spend that kind of money for this solution because if you take rope you'll be done with a few hundred euros.

CO: OK, just going back to the squirrel sex. So are there not squirrels on either side of the road that they can have sex with? Is it better to have sex on the side? Is there some theory on this?

AD: [Sound: Laughing] Well there are 22 squirrels and I believe most squirrels are on one side of the road. And because the squirrel’s families are expanding, they should come in contact with other squirrel families too.

CO: OK, so it's a nice thing to do to make squirrels happy and help them mate and find other squirrels. And you have children, but at the same time you say that the squirrels are not using the bridge?

AD: No. It's a waste of money. Somebody has made a decision to spend a lot of money to build this futuristic bridge and now after two years none of the squirrels are using it.

CO: You said about seven squirrels have used it right?

AD: Yeah well five. Three on the first year and two on the second year, but in the worst scenario the two squirrels last year was only one because maybe it's registered when it's going to the other side and the other day when he's going back.

CO: Or maybe he went and he came back with a partner?

AD: Yeah. Well no no that that's not possible because there should be a registration.

CO: But now when you say there might be cheaper ways to do this, I mean, I guess you could call a taxi and chauffeur them over for cheaper than this.

AD: Yeah. You could pick up the squirrel on one side and bring it with a taxi to the other side. And also that solution is more cheaper than this bridge.

CO: Sure. I mean you could introduce the squirrel to mates. You could have a little dating service.

AD: Yeah. [Laughs] That's a new type of business -- squirrel dating service.

CO: I have to ask you, because I know my listeners are wondering -- wanting me to ask you this -- you know that it's not April 1st.

AD: No, no, I know. But this is serious. This is not the first of April. This is a true story.

CO: Any thoughts of maybe trying to, you know, bait them by putting nuts on the bridge or something and see if you can lure them onto the wall?

AD: Well maybe it's an idea to sell this bridge to Canada.

CO: Well the thing is -- here in Canada it appears to me that the squirrels are getting a lot of sex. So I'm not sure that we need to help them in that regard. I could be wrong.

AD: Canada is a very big country with a lot of trees probably.

CO: And a lot of squirrels.

AD: And a lot of squirrels.

CO: All right. Would you like some squirrels? We could send you some.

AD: Yeah. If you can do that.

CO: And they might use the bridge.

AD: Is it allowed to send squirrels?

CO: We'll find out. We'll find out.

AD: [Laughs] Maybe the Canadian squirrels will use it.

CO: Uh huh. It's possible. Yeah. They might be adventurers.

AD: Yeah. [Laughs]

CO: Arjen, big problem you got there. I don't know what you're going to do, but maybe you can teach those girls how to cross that bridge when they come to it.

AD: Yeah. I will think about it. [Laughter]

CO: Okay. Have a good weekend. Bye bye.

AD: Carol thank you. You too.

CH: It is not allowed to send squirrels. From our archives, Carol, speaking with Arjen Dubbelaar, a city councillor in The Hague, the Netherlands, on March 25th, 2016. You can find more on our webpage: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Part 2: 'In these uncertain times': Teacher crafts poem out of quarantine emails

South Dakota Mayor

Guest: Pat Starr

CH: For weeks, South Dakota was relatively isolated from the pandemic moving around the world. But that changed last week after an outbreak at a pork processing plant in Sioux Falls. As of today, more than 300 workers there have tested positive for COVID-19. And while the plant has shut its doors, the state is still very much open for business. South Dakota's governor, Kristi Noem, has so far refused to issue an order to keep people at home. That's not sitting well with local officials, including Pat Starr. He's a city councillor in Sioux Falls. And that's where we reached him.

PC: Councillor Starr, earlier this month, Governor Kristi Noem told reporters that South Dakota is not New York City. But this past week we have seen a cluster of coronavirus cases emerge near a South Dakota city. So how would you describe the situation in Sioux Falls?

PAT STARR: Well, you know, the first thing more than anything is that we always remind people not to panic. Both of our hospitals in our city oare well in control and we're able to help the people coming to both facilities. But we are seeing a rapid spike in the number of positive cases and we are still not testing enough. And so I think potentially the numbers out there could be a lot higher.

PC: And what is it been like to watch those numbers spike over the past week?

PS: It is scary and it does remind us that we need to follow the guidelines from the CDC, we need to wash our hands and do those things. But at the same time, we need to be a little bit scared. A little bit of fear is not a bad thing to get us where we need to be, to do the right things and to shelter in place.

PC: You and others in your city are calling on the governor to now enact shelter at home orders. Why do you want that to happen?

PS: Well, I think the last thing we want is our health care providers, our two hospitals to become overwhelmed where they cannot help people who need that care. There are going to be a number of people who don't survive this virus. But my biggest fear is that the people who could normally be helped in a normal situation, in a healthcare facility, aren't going to be able to get the care that they need because the system is totally overwhelmed. That potential is there and we want to do everything we can to not get to that point.

PC: Dr. Anthony Fauci, your country's top infectious disease expert, told CNN he doesn't understand why all 50 states don't have these orders in place. South Dakota, your state, is one of five states who haven't done so. Why do you think that is?

PS: Because our governor has also said that South Dakota isn't the same -- being out on the prairie like other parts of our country. And so we're getting conflicting reports. Our governor is very close with the president -- being a former congresswoman. She had talked about in news conferences earlier this week and last week that she's been on the phone with the president. She's been on the phone with the vice president and Mr. Kushner. And in her opinion, we're not the same as the rest of the country.

PC: And is that what you think is behind not putting that order in, or is there more to it, in your opinion?

PS: No, I think that's why we're trying to slow down everything. There's a conflict somewhere between our mayor and the governor not seeing things the same way. I think they're using two different modeling systems. I think they're looking at a different set of numbers. In South Dakota, we're primarily a very rural state of eight hundred and fifty thousand people. But in the Sioux Falls MSA, we have about 250000 people. So we are a good sized urban area in comparison to a large part of our state that's very rural. And so trying to come up with a plan that serves a metropolitan area versus a rural area -- I agree that there's probably a different way to do that. But that's why we're asking for this to be in a way that's more managed for what we're seeing on the ground with the people who are actually on the ground, have boots on the ground.

PC: Your governor, Governor Noem, has said it's up to individuals, not the government, to decide whether, quote, "to exercise their right to work, to worship and to play or to even stay at home." What do you make of that?

PS: I couldn't disagree more. I agree that we have a rugged individualism as South Dakotans. But when it comes to public health, your rights under the United States Constitution, as my high school government teacher taught me, end at the end of my nose. And what I do when it affects someone else's rights and my right for me and my family to be safe and healthy, I think that we can disagree on that point that she has.

PC: So tomorrow, you and your colleagues will consider a city council ordinance to keep people at home. Do you have the power to do that and what will that do?

PS: Well, I believe we do have the power. The hardest part is that this ordinance is being proposed by our mayor. We have a strong mayor form of government home rule charter, where the city council is part time and kind of intended to work 10 to 12 hours a week and kind of a corporate board of directors type of policymaking body. So we are waiting for the mayor to have what's going to be in the ordinance, what the enforcement processes are. But we have to have that by 7:00 o'clock tonight to give the public notice before our meeting on Wednesday at 7:00 p.m..

PC: And what about the people of Sioux Falls? Are they in favour of such an ordinance?

PS: The calls that I'm getting overwhelmingly are to shelter in place. And the people that I'm primarily hearing from are people who have family members that are at risk: elderly parents, children, spouses, people who are really going to be at risk if they get infected with this virus and it will be life threatening for them. And those are the people who are really strongly interested in slowing this down as much as we can.

PC: And so what concerns you the most -- should this ordinance not pass, should things just continue on as normal, and the number of cases in South Dakota quite possibly increases?

PS: Well, I think we're going to see that spread as a natural progression in this process anyway. What concerns me most is not being able to overload our healthcare system so that people can't be helped when they need that help. We're already at that point because we're limiting the amount of tests that we're doing. The state doesn't have enough testing equipment. And without being in a panic, people need to take shelter in their homes. This is like a hurricane or a tornado that those of us on the plains are used to. You're getting plenty of warning. The warning sirens need to be going off now that you need to do everything you can to protect your family and to be ready to shelter in place for up to three weeks.

PC: Councilor Starr, thank you for making time for us today.

PS: Absolutely.

CH: Pat Starr is a city councillor in Sioux Falls, South Dakota. That's where we reached him.

[Music]

Barack Obama

CH: The enmity is over and the endorsements have begun. Last week, Bernie Sanders announced that he was suspending his campaign to become the Democratic presidential nominee. Mr. Sanders was Joe Biden's only competitor left in that race. And yesterday, he endorsed Mr. Biden. Today, Mr. Biden received another big endorsement, this time from former President Barack Obama. Here's part of a video released by Mr. Obama today.

[sc]

BARACK OBAMA: One thing everybody has learned by now is that the Republicans occupying the White House and running the US Senate are not interested in progress. They're interested in power. They've shown themselves willing to kick millions off their health insurance and eliminate preexisting condition protections for millions more even in the middle of this public health crisis, even as they're willing to spend a trillion dollars on tax cuts for the wealthy. They've given polluters unlimited power to poison our air and our water and denied the science of climate change, just as they denied the science of pandemics. Repeatedly, they've disregarded American principles of rule of law and voting rights and transparency. Basic norms that previous administrations observed regardless of party. Principles that are the bedrock of our democracy. So our country's future hangs on this election. And it won't be easy. The other side has a massive war chest. The other side has a propaganda network with little regard for the truth. On the other hand, pandemics have a way of cutting through a lot of noise and spin to remind us of what is real and what is important. This crisis has reminded us that government matters. It's reminded us that good government matters. That facts and science matter. That the rule of law matters. But having leaders who are informed and honest and seek to bring people together rather than drive them apart. Those kind of leaders matter.

[/sc]

CH: That was Barack Obama endorsing his former Vice President Joe Biden for president of the United States.

[Music]

Quarantine Email Poem

Guest: Jessica Salfia

CH: Your inbox is probably overflowing with their compassionate marketing retailers and organizations addressing the coronavirus pandemic, and maybe you didn't draw too much inspiration from them, but Jessica Salfia did. The West Virginia High School teacher has written a poem entitled "The First Lines of Emails I've Received While Quarantining." We reached Ms. Salfia in Martinsburg, West Virginia.

PC: Ms. Salfia the title of your poem likely says it all, but just tell us what exactly have you done here?

JESSICA SALFIA: Well, the creative writing teacher, I teach high school English. And I, like my students, I keep a writer's notebook and I write a lot with them and I write things for them as example models. And so as we have been living through this thing that no one has ever lived there before, I started noticing how language was changing and language was trending. And my students are currently distance learning as are most kids in the US and I'm sure also in Canada too. And so I'm constantly in my email inbox answering questions from students and other colleagues and parents. And so I started noticing these trends in marketing emails and not just marketing emails, but educational institutions. And then, you know, folks trying to sell things to educators. And so I just started keeping track in my writer's notebook of these like common language that I was seeing common expressions. And it started to sound lyrical to me. And then one day I opened it and it started to look like a poem. And then the rest is history, as they say.

PC: Okay, so let's hear some of these trends that you were noticing. Would you mind reading your poem for us?

JS: Sure. Sure. [Reading] The First Lines of Emails I've Received While Quarantining

In these uncertain times

as we navigate the new normal,

Are you willing to share your ideas and solutions?

April 14, 2020 Episode Transcript

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