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The AIH Transcript for October 27, 2020

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

CO: Bench strength. Wayne Gretzky and Andrew Ference remember their late friend and behind the scenes teammate, Joey Moss, who managed to bring out the best in hockey players as people.

CH: Church and states. A Republican evangelical Christian says he can't vote for Donald Trump for moral reasons, but he can't bring himself to support Joe Biden either.

CO: Worried sick. A Toronto cancer surgeon says the COVID effect is making people delay early screening and avoid hospitals, which may be behind the sharp rise in patients coming to him with advanced cancers.

CH: The beat goes on. Diane di Prima, who died on Sunday, started her career as one of the few women in the beat poetry scene. But her daughter tells us her work is eerily relevant in the here and now.

CO: The political is personal. As the UK tries to scale back free meals for student, a British lord reveals how much he and his family relied on them when he was a boy.

CH: And deer in the headlines. A buck in British Columbia is turning heads and racking up a following online for his ability to accessorize with a bright pink yoga ball wedged between his antlers. As It Happens. The Tuesday Edition. Radio that guesses even deer suffer from male pattern baldness.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Backlog in screenings causes influx of patients with advanced cancers, says Ontario doctor

Joey Moss obit: Wayne Gretzky and Andrew Ference

Guests: Wayne Gretzky & Andrew Ference

WAYNE GRETZKY: [Soundclip: This is my good pal, Joey Moss. Every day, Joey works hard in the Oiler dressing room, preparing things for our team.]

CH: That was Wayne Gretzky speaking at the beginning of a PSA from about 35 years ago. In it, the Great One is standing in front of some Edmonton Oilers gear, skates, helmets and team jerseys. And beside him is another great one and fellow legend of Canadian sport, Joey Moss. For decades, Mr. Moss worked as a locker room attendant for the Oilers and Edmonton's football team. He would go on to be inducted into the Alberta Sports Hall of Fame. Joey Moss died yesterday. He was 57. Mr. Moss was born with down syndrome. And in the 1980s, Mr. Gretzky helped him get a job with his NHL team. He was dating Mr. Moss's sister at the time. In the years that followed, Mr. Moss and Mr. Gretzky formed a deep bond. We reached Wayne Gretzky in California.

CO: Wayne, first of all, I'm sorry for your loss.

WAYNE GRETZKY: Yeah. You know, unfortunately, in life there are tragedies and obviously this is one of them. This is a tough day for obviously his family and a lot of the Oiler players who went through the locker room and of course, the fans of Edmonton and of course mentally challenged kids across the country that have been impacted by his life. He was a pretty special young man. And they he will be missed dearly, but he won't be forgotten. He was just a tremendous young man.

CO: Why was he special to you?

WG: Well, my dad's sister, who had down syndrome, I grew up with her sometime after I was born. And so I was very comfortable with kids who are mentally challenged. When I got to meet Joey, he had just finished his sort of curriculum of school and he was working at a bottle depot and putting in a lot of hard hours. And I felt like his love and passion for hockey would be a bonus and a plus to the Edmonton Oilers. And Glen Sather was kind enough to allow him to start working in the locker room and he became a fixture. And people have sent me a lot of texts and faxes and phone calls over the last 24 hours about how much of a nice life he had because we with the Oilers, but on the other side of it, he was an impact on our lives, whether it was myself and Paul Coffey or Mark Messier or Grant Fuhr, Kevin Lowe, or the fans of Edmonton. He was a huge impact to all of us in a positive way.

CO: What effect did he have on those players? I mean, those are pretty tough guys. How did he melt their hearts?

WG: Because the reality of life was -- in professional hockey, winning is everything and you're on top of the mountain when you win. And when you lose, you're in the bottom of the mountain, bottom of the valley. And he had that special way to be able to, after a hockey game, a tough loss or a tough game, to be able to let us know and understand that there's more things in life that are more important than that one loss. So he became a fixture. He was so imperative to the success of our club because his personality was such that he was so positive. He appreciated everything in life. He loved his family and he loved his friends, and he loved the people that were part of the Oilers. And he truly enjoyed being sort of a celebrity in town, for that matter, in the province of Alberta. And I always say I'm not sure what he did for kids that were mentally challenged, but I know what he did for the parents of those kids, that he showed those parents that there's a light at the end of the tunnel, that they can live a normal life and they can be part of society. And I think that gave them a lot of hope. I think that's what he's going to be most remembered for.

CO: When you say that he could bring those players out of that pit of despair, is there a story or is there something you remember about how he did that? What did he say or how did he work that magic?

WG: I think it was more of his actions. You know he is a touchy feely young man. He loved being in the locker room with the Oilers and the Eskimos. And that was his life. And I think when people who came in that locker room just looked at him, understood that wow life is not that tough right now, and we have this young man here that's telling us that 'everything is going to be okay.' That goes a long way.

CO: Did you have any idea that when you got him into the Oilers dressing room that he was going to give that much more? That he was going to be more than just a team player and part of the gang, but that he was going to be an inspiration not just to players, but to the city.

WG: Oh absolutely. From day one, we understood that he was going to be a huge part of the makeup of the organization, not only for us, but for the Eskimos. Paul Coffey and I used to sit around and tease about it that we're going to be long gone from Edmonton and Joey is still going to be here, and he is going to be a huge fixture in the city and the organization. And that's exactly what happened.

CO: Just finally, is there any particular story that you could share with us that you cherish about Joey?

WG: Oh there's so many. You know, he lived with me for a better part of two years. He would stay with me in my apartment. And obviously when we went on the road, he would go back and stay with his mother. But the biggest thing in life was his mother always told me, you know what? He's 20 years old or 21 or 22 and he is a normal young man, treat him like everyone else. And she was sort of a trailblazer in a sense that she didn't want him to be treated any differently than any other 21 year old. And that's what we tried to do and respect. And I just can't say enough. He was been my best friends and he was a wonderful young man.

CO: Wayne, thank you so much for telling us about Joey Moss.

WG: All right. Thank you. You guys have a great day. Thank you.

CH: That was former NHL star Wayne Gretzky remembering his friend Joey Moss. Years after Wayne Gretzky left Edmonton, Andrew Ference would lead the Oilers as their captain. We reached him in Edmonton.

CO: Andrew, what was it like for you and your family to get this news?

ANDREW FERENCE: It frankly, it was gut wrenching. I mean, it's just such a sad year and then to have news come through about Joey, just tore my heart out, really. And, you know, my girls are old enough, I have two daughters who got to know Joe when we came back to Edmonton and my wife knew him, so kind of all of us were just really in mourning. And, you know, I guess that transitioned into some good storytelling to each other last night. But just overall sadness.

CO: What was Joey Moss like?

AF: Well, full of life, I guess. I mean, like I said, we were telling stories about how he -- that's, I guess, what you do when you remember somebody. And, you know, when I think of Joey, I think of him in a few different ways. As a kid growing up in Edmonton, I remember him as Wayne's buddy. And, you know, they're doing all the work in the dressing room. And, you know, I guess after getting to know him a bit and coming to play for the Oilers and seeing him about town, I think of him a lot, you know, on the dance floor [chuckles] being the first guy out there, you know, just pulling off all of his good dance moves. And I think of him, you know, at a Special Olympics hockey tournaments. And I think of them walking the runway at a fundraiser for the Down Syndrome Society and just being a total superstar. He was full of life for sure.

CO: And he brought a lot out in other people, didn't he? I mean, he is in the Oilers dressing room. This is a pretty hard place to be. But I understand he warmed a lot of hearts.

AF: He was the soul of the team for generations. You know, sports can kind of get lost in itself sometimes. You can enter into this little bubble where, you know, certain things that, you know, probably aren't the most important things in the world, tend to, you know, really seem important at the time. And I think what, you know, Joey's special power was just kind of bringing everybody back to a different perspective of, you know, yeah, you lost last night, but he was able to put a smile on your face the next morning. And, you know, he was always there for you. And, you know, once in a while he'd break out singing La Bamba or something to pick up the boys [laughter] and give them a good laugh. You know, his banter was unmatched. You know, he wanted to get you with a good one liner or something like that. So I mean, he was just so valuable to, like I said, generations of players that came through that room -- and not only Oilers, you know, even visiting teams. He sure turned into a legend where, you know, guys are really excited to meet Joey. And I guess it maybe is one of those, welcome to the NHL moments is the first time that you've probably got to see Joey Moss in Edmonton. And, you know, for a lot of guys, including myself, it was a big moment to meet a legend like him.

CO: And not just for hockey players, right, I mean Joey Moss was somebody who could go around Edmonton and people wanted to have their picture taken with him, they wanted his autograph, they wanted him to bless their children. He meant a lot to people in Edmonton, didn't he?

AF: Honestly, with zero exaggeration, you know, there's been a lot of superstars that have come through here, he is by far the most beloved Edmontonian. And that's not an exaggeration. And I would have said that years ago. He truly is the soul of the city. And I think that, you know, it really hit a lot of people hard today because you did so much for so many different people -- you know, obviously for the down syndrome community. He was the guy. He raised so much money. He was always out there at the fundraisers. He was such an unbelievable advocate. For us hockey players he was a friend. And he was that, like I said, that guy that brought everybody back to a good level set. So I guess, you know, everybody had different interactions with Joey over the years. And I think they're all positive. So, you know, any celebrity or any fame that he encountered was more deserved than probably anybody else that ever has received the same.

CO: You wrote on Twitter, you said, "I'll remember him singing the anthem with pride, getting fired up about wrestling, and always asking if I combed my hair with a pork chop." [Laughter] What was that about?

AF: Like I said, he had pretty good banter. And you come in and he liked to have a little back and forth once in a while. So sometimes the guys would give him a hard time because he was a hard worker. You know, he'd be in there with the trainers and doing all his chores and all the laundry and getting the bottles ready and tux ready and everything that he needed to do for us to have practice. But he somehow always found a way to get, you know, two or three breakfasts delivered to him as well. [Laughter] So if you gave him a hard time about being on his third breakfast he would, you know, pop off a line like that or something like that, he would just kind of give you the once over and ask you if you combed your hair with a pork chop that morning or something. [Laughter] And there is no comeback. What’s a comeback to that? So like you said, you know, he knew how to lighten the mood a lot. But yeah really the memories -- and I had conversations with a few people obviously over the last day, and the guy sang his heart out. You know, singing the anthem. And not only that, you can think of what we can all learn from Joey Moss belting out -- sing like you mean it. You know, if there's a dance floor, get out there and dance. You know, he was the first guy out there pulling off all the best moves and, you know, just really living life the right way.

CO: Chris O'Leary was writing. He said that athletes who appeared to be made out of stone could turn and melt into buttery kindness when they saw Joey Moss. So we talk about whisperers, those who are masters of being able to crack difficult tasks. But Joey Moss was a people whisperer, even if he didn't realize it.

AF: Well, I mean, how do you say it better than that? It's true. I mean, he was a pure soul.

CO: Andrew I really appreciate you telling this about Joey Moss. Thank you.

AF: Well, I appreciate, you know, seeing everybody in the response to his passing which is so sad, but like I said, the positivity of people sharing their stories and what Joey meant to so many people. And I'm really glad that, you know, he's getting his due because there's nobody that's more deserving.

CO: All right. Thank you.

AF: Thank you.

CH: That was the former captain of the Edmonton Oilers, Andrew Ference, in Edmonton. He's now the NHL is director of Social Impact, Growth, and Legislative Affairs. As we just heard Mr. Ference say, Joey Moss sang his heart out on the ice. Here he is singing the national anthem. [Joey Moss singing O Canada] Joey Moss belting out the national anthem at an Edmonton Oilers home game. Joey Moss, the team's long-time locker room attendant and Edmonton legend, died yesterday. He was 57.

[Music]

Cancer treatment delays

Guest: Jonathan Irish

CH: This story is about one of the unexpected symptoms of the pandemic, but it's not about getting a rash or losing your sense of smell, in fact, it's not about people being diagnosed with COVID-19 at all. It's about people being diagnosed with and treated for cancer. Oncologists and surgeons say they're seeing more patients with advanced cancers at their hospitals. Dr. Jonathan Irish is one of those doctors. He's a head and neck cancer surgeon and the provincial head of the surgical oncology program at Ontario Health. We reached Dr. Irish in Toronto.

CO: Doctor Irish, how much more advanced are the cancers that you're seeing in some of your patients?

JONATHAN IRISH: That's really hard to measure. We have 14 regional heads throughout our province for cancer surgery. And we're hearing from the ground that patients are presenting with more advanced disease. So I can speak personally as a head neck cancer surgeon and in my unit that we've done 10 laryngectomies. Now laryngectomy is an operation done for the most advanced voicebox cancers or larynx cancers. And we've done more in the last two months than we usually do in a full year. Now, that's anecdotal, but we're hearing from our colleagues and from the ground that patients are presenting increasingly with more advanced cancers.

CO: Is your sense and the sense of your other doctors, again this is anecdotal, that this is linked to the pandemic?

JI: Well, I don't think there's any doubt. We know, for example, that patients are visiting their primary care doctors less often. We know, in fact, that the number of CT scans and MRI scans that have been done in the province is a lot less than the same time last year. Our screening programs for colon cancer, mammography for breast cancer, our cervical cytology, screening for cervix cancers and so on are down over 80 percent. And of course, that pipeline, that diagnostic pipeline, throughout the course of a patient's pathway through the system, from primary care to diagnostics and CT and MRI and screening, ultimately results in patients being slowed up in the diagnostic pipeline. And they are presenting, I conjecture, that they're presenting with more advanced cancers.

CO: So because of the pandemic, is it the choice of those patients who are not getting the pre screening or not going to see their doctors just for routine things as well as if they feel this is something that they should get looked at -- is it that they're opting to do that or is it that the system isn't allowing them in?

JI: I think it's a little bit of both. I've been in situations and I know my colleagues have as well, where I've had patients who have been diagnosed with cancer but are fearful of coming into the hospital for care because they are fearful, quite frankly, that they're going to contract, of course it's an irrational fear, contract COVID-19 while they're in hospital, that they'll be exposed. And so I think there is an element here of fear of going to the doctor, going to the hospital, and, of course, of increasingly ignoring their symptoms. So that they present with more advanced cancers. So there is an element of the system. You know, the chief medical officer of health directed elective services to shut down on March 17th of this year and opened up in May. And we're still seeing a backlog of patients as we ramp up our services. We certainly proved that we could slow down quickly to create capacity for COVID-19 patients. But it was much more of a challenge to ramp up after we were directed to slow down services to create that resource for our COVID-19 patients.

CO: I mean, as an oncologist, what does it mean to you and your colleagues that after all the years that you have put into trying to encourage people to get screened, to get looked at, to be in routine screening processes, all these things, in order to have early diagnosis, that was just a key part of the success of cancer treatment -- how much have you lost in this period?

JI: Well, it's hard to exactly tell you how much we've lost. But, how do we feel? We feel frustrated, obviously. Whether we're a cardiac surgeon where there we're a cancer surgeon, you know, in those areas where we have time urgent or time sensitive surgical procedures that, you know, we can measure in quantity of life because of what we can do, the ability to detect early cancer, to detect cancer early in its stage is absolutely critical. And one of the ways we've been able to push the needle for improvements in cancer survival over the last 20 years, a huge part of that, is early detection and screening. Not just better surgery, not just integrated radiation treatments and the advances that we've made in medical oncology and immunotherapy. But a lot of this story has been written by early detection.

CO: We're about to go into or we perhaps already are, in many parts of the country, in the second wave. What advice do you give to people who are hesitating about getting the screening?

JI: Well, here's the good news. So I think we're getting our message out. Stories like this, I hope that the message will get out to our patients to not ignore symptoms, don't ignore symptoms of cancer, and don't ignore symptoms of cardiac disease or stroke and so on. The other part of this is rather than reactive, which is to clear our backlogs of surgery, is to be proactive. So we know more about COVID-19 than we did last March. And so we understand that it's more of a regional pandemic, that we can react regionally with regards to how healthcare services should ramp down to take care of COVID-19 patients and how we can ramp up safely and protect our patients who do not have COVID-19, but care for them in a COVID-19 environment. So we understand that we don't have to take a mass casualty type of approach where we close down services like we did in March to create a capacity of care for patients that we now understand that we can be much more selective in how we create resources for patients. And it's in response to how the regional uptick in patients who have COVID-19 is occurring.

CO: All right. Useful information for people out there. Dr. Irish thank you.

JI: Thank you for bringing this story forward.

CH: Dr. Jonathan Irish is a head and neck cancer surgeon with the University Health Network. He's also the provincial head of the surgical oncology program at Ontario Health's Cancer Care Ontario. We reached Dr. Irish in Toronto after this story was first reported in the Toronto Star. And you can find more at: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Leslie John Griffiths

CH: Leslie John Griffiths and Marcus Rashford are both British. But beyond that, they would appear to have zero or not, as the British say, in common. Mr. Griffiths is a Methodist minister turned Labor member of the House of Lords, best known as Lord Griffiths. And Mr. Rashford is a forward for Manchester United, best known for kicking a soccer ball very well. But lately, the two men have found common ground on one issue: the importance of free school meals in the UK. Prime Minister Boris Johnson has come under fire for his refusal to extend those meals over an upcoming holiday. Instead, he says, local councils should draw on funding announced over the summer to help families make ends meet. But speaking in the House of Lords today, Lord Griffiths says he knows the toll that plan will take and expects little else from a graduate of the country's prestigious Eton College.

LESLIE JOHN GRIFFITHS: I was in receipt of free meals throughout my entire school career. My mother, a single woman, her only income was the contributions of the national assistance. We lived in one room. I remember very clearly, I can still taste and smell it, the mounting panic ahead of school holidays because the income we had could not stretch to feeding two boys and a mother in that day. Marcus Rashford and I have this and probably only this in common. We remember, not in our heads, but in our whole body. An old Etonian, of course, can't be expected to had the same experience. Some local councils will draw money in the way that the government is suggesting from allocations they've received. Other local authorities won't. Some communities will rise to the challenge. Other communities won't. Some children will get through. Most won't. Can the noble lady, the minister, give us some reassurance -- not hide behind global figures and understand that postcode lottery is not a formula that's destined to help the well-being of our children.

CH: Lord Leslie John Griffiths defending free school meals in the UK's House of Lords today. In response, Education Minister Baroness Elizabeth Berridge said "Many noble lords of all parties and none can recall circumstances in which their own needs, whether that be housing or food, were not met through the circumstances of their family." She did not, however, make it clear how this government would meet them.

[Music]

Part 2: Beat poet Diane di Prima taught her kids to question authority and believe in their own creativity

U.S. election: Alabama Republican

Guest: Bill Brewbaker

CH: For some people, deciding how to vote in the upcoming U.S. election isn't just a political choice, it's a moral one as well. Bill Brewbaker is one of them. He's an evangelical Christian and a Republican. When we last spoke with Mr. Brewbaker in 2017, when Republican Roy Moore was running for a Senate seat in Alabama. You may recall that Mr. Moore was endorsed by President Donald Trump despite the fact that nine women had accused Mr. Moore of sexually assaulting or sexually pursuing them when they were teenagers. Bill Brewbaker told Carol that he couldn't bring himself to vote for Mr. Moore.

CO: So what do you say to your fellow evangelicals?

BILL BREWBAKER: Well, I say, first of all, that whenever we find ourselves defending the indefensible, that maybe it ought to be a good warning sign to us that we need to remind ourselves where our allegiances really are supposed to be. And if we find ourselves defending things that we would attack if somebody in another party or another tribe were engaging with them, then I think we've lost some mooring somewhere. So I'm deeply concerned about that.

CH: That was Bill Brewbaker speaking with Carol in December 2017. We reached him again today in Tuscaloosa, Alabama.

CO: Bill, as a Republican and an evangelical Christian, how are you feeling as you look at your choice in this presidential election?

BILL BREWBAKER: Well, I'm personally not feeling all that different than I did in 2016. I was dismayed by the president's approach to politics and civic discourse before that election, and weighed somebody else as a choice. This doesn't feel like it does for Senator Clinton, Secretary Clinton. I expect I'll do the same thing this time.

CO: So what's going through your mind? What are you thinking about as you try to make this decision? Just give us a little slice into your thought processes, if you would.

BB: Well, I continue to believe that President Trump just lacks the basic character and leadership qualities to hold such an important office. So I don't have any intention of voting for him. I think he's got a lot of damage to our political institutions over the last four years. At the same time, you know, there's some things like, I know I don't like about a Biden presidency. If that happens, I'll enjoy not having a tweet every morning. I'll enjoy not having a president who was so tepid in his denunciation of White supremacists, who is not so given to dividing us. You know, all those things I'll be happy about. But Biden's policies are not policies that I support by and large. And he's going to spend a lot of money. He's going to appoint people that I [inaudible], I'm not sure his foreign policy will be a success. So I find myself a little bit -- hopeless, I guess would be a word I could use.

CO: So you can't bring yourself to vote for Joe Biden?

BB: No. You know, for me, voting for somebody, I think I heard an American commentator named David French say that he has a two protest for voting for folks and one is voting for somebody on the basis of their character and the other is on the basis of their policies. And if you want to get my vote, then I need to be comfortable not only with who you are, but with what you're going to do.

CO: And will you write in a candidate then?

BB: I suppose so, yes. I'm not sure whom. I'll probably write Mitt Romney or Ben Sasse. I bet a lot of Alabamians will write in our famous football coach, Nick Saban. So the protest vote, he probably will work as well as anybody else.

CO: Do you know Republicans who dislike President Trump who have decided they're going to vote for Joe Biden?

BB: I had dinner with one last night -- a long time and very involved Republican, and he is voting not just for Vice President Biden, but he is voting the straight Democratic ticket.

CO: What brought him to that choice?

BB: Well, I think we both like to send a message to the Republican leadership that our Republican Party that's built on Trump-ism really has no future. And he just may be a little angrier than I am. [Chuckles] I don't know.

CO: So do you think he's unusual? Or do you think there's others like him?

BB: Oh, I suspect there will be many others like him. I think everybody's exhausted. I don't think evangelicals are immune from that. And I know, you know, to be fair, I think lots of folks that voted for Trump in 2016 sort of held their nose and hoped for the best on the policy side of things. And I think after four years it's hard tell yourself that the worst qualities that we saw in Trump, the campaign of what would like to materialize and Trump the officeholder. We've seen only things get worse on that point for years.

CO: You know, lots of people say that Donald Trump isn't the cause, he's in an effect. He's a symptom of something in the Republican Party. And you said yourself in 2017 when we spoke that you wish there were more evangelical Christians who would question their relationship with the party itself. Are you seeing that happening?

BB: Actually, I have seen some of that happen. And I do think after the election there will be a re-examination of the relationship between evangelicals and the Republican Party, if Trump loses. I hope there will be one regardless. But I expect there will be, especially if he does lose, because the question that somebody like me has to ask is, you know, do I have a home in a party that is so interested in nationalism and tying the flag and the gospel together in ways that don't seem to fit? You know, is it enough just to say that you are pro-life to get my vote, am I compelled to vote for this party as opposed to the other one just merely on that single issue alone, although that's an issue that's very important to me and very important to evangelicals generally? And I think there's a sense of embarrassment among evangelicals that we've been taken for a ride a bit, in my opinion.

CO: You know, there are a lot of Senate seats that people are watching, wondering if they will go to the Democrats. But actually, in Alabama, there's a possibility that it will go the other way. There's one unsafe Democratic seat, isn't there? Senator, Doug Jones, who ran against Roy Moore and now Doug Jones, is running against Tommy Tuberville, a well-known football coach. How are you going to vote in that election if you can tell me?

BB: Well, I'm going to hold my nose and vote for Tommy Tubervill -- whatever his deficiencies, in my view they are, anyway...He doesn't talk in the same sort of religious language that Roy Moore does. And so, given my concern about some of the policy developments in the Biden presidency, I'd really like to see the Senate remain in Republican hands.

CO: So you have decided you're going to vote?

BB: Tuberville. Yes. Yes. I'll go ahead and say that. I'm going to vote for Coach Tuberville. You know, I've got friends that held their nose and voted for the president four years ago. And I'm going to do the same thing with Coach Tuberville this year.

CO: All right. Bill maybe we'll be talking to you in four years from now to see how this works out.

BB: [Laughter] Well, I hope we'll be talking in better and happier times. Thank you for having me on.

CO: Thanks so much.

CO: Bill Brewbaker is an evangelical Republican voter. He teaches law at the University of Alabama. He was in Tuscaloosa, Alabama.

[Music]

Diane di Prima obit

Guest: Dominique di Prima

CH: The poet Diane di Prima leaned into life -- fearlessly opening herself to experience the world as deeply and fully as possible. And that philosophy applied to the realms of sex, spirituality, poetry and politics made for an extraordinary life. You can feel it in her writing.

DIANE DI PRIMA: [Soundclip: A very very brief one line poem from the 50s. "Get your cut throat off my knife." And only slightly longer poem from the 60s, Revolutionary letter number four.

Left to themselves people

grow their hair.

Left to themselves they

take off their shoes.

Left to themselves they make love

sleep easily

share blankets, dope & children

they are not lazy or afraid

they plant seeds, they smile, they speak to one another.

The word coming into its own: touch of love

on the brain, the ear.

We return with the seas, the tides

we return as often as leaves, as numerous

as grass, gentle, insistent, we remember

the way,

our babes toddle barefoot thru the cities of the universe.]

CH: The raw honesty and revolutionary bent of Diane di Prima's work has resonated far beyond the 50s or 60s when she was one of the few women in the beat scene. It's become a touchstone for many of the people who took to the streets this spring after the death of George Floyd at the hands of police. Diane di Prima died on Sunday after a long illness. She was 86 years old. We reached her daughter, Dominique di Prima in Los Angeles.

CO: Dominique, first of all, I'm so sorry for your loss.

DOMINIQUE DI PRIMA: Thank you.

CO: When you hear your mom read that poem, Left to Themselves, what comes to mind?

DOMINIQUE DI PRIMA: Well, that's from Revolutionary Letters, her powerful book reflecting a lot of her, you know, political beliefs and her lifelong commitment to activism. You know, she was an anarchist and she believed also in the best of people and goodness and, you know, in optimism and creativity. And she always was steadfast in that throughout her whole life.

CO: Just in that one part of Revolutionary Letters, the combination of how she weaves together politics, the touch of love, the idea of people, just the images -- grow their hair and take off their shoes. They're not lazy or afraid. All those things that she twines together. Where does all that come from, along with the spirituality she adds to it?

DOMINIQUE DI PRIMA: Right. So, of course, my mom was a Buddhist and she believed in a world that wasn't linear and wasn't ruled by Western thinking. You know, people don't realize she was a physics major when she went to Swarthmore. Incredibly brilliant mind. And, you know, not that she didn't understand Western culture or mathematics. She just didn't believe that the universe or society had to be the way that someone else prescribed it to be or the way that Western male, you know, patriarchal norms said it should be. And that was her world view and it informed everything. I mean, the Buddhism, the anarchist perspective, her study of alchemy and pagan and magical traditions, all of these things combined to create a world view that was in some ways futuristic, because a lot of the things that she, you know, explored deeply are trendy or things that people are now discovering, right.

CO: She is regarded to have been a beat poet. Part of the beat generation. It's hard to imagine, though, because when I think of Jack Kerouac and Allen Ginsberg -- it's a very very chauvinist pig male world. How did she fit into that?

DOMINIQUE DI PRIMA: Honestly, I mean, you know, I was [chuckles] too little to really probably know how she fitted with Jack Kerouac. But I know this, my mom fitted anywhere she went. She was unafraid and she wouldn't hesitate to tell someone they were a bore, which is more what she would be likely to say than a sexist -- is you're a bore. And I think probably some of the things some guys did when mom wasn't around, they didn't do or they got called on it if they did it. And, you know, Ginsberg I mean, I do remember him well. You know, he was one of my babysitters as a child and someone that I looked up to coming up. I don't know. That just wasn't my perspective of him. I mean, I guess, you know, he's a man and he was a gay man. So he was around other men. But I never experienced him to be sexist. You know, he was a good friend to my mom.

CO: I'm trying to imagine your childhood because your mom had five kids from different relationships. She had a lot of loves. She moved a few times with kids with her and always found space, I guess, for them with Allen Ginsberg as your babysitter. I mean, what was it like to have her as a mom?

DOMINIQUE DI PRIMA: I mean, certainly it's an upbringing that I've ever seen portrayed anywhere else. But, you know, I think we had a lot of strengths. I mean, we were exposed to a lot of different things, more poetry, you know, by the time you were seven than most people would probably experience in their whole lives. And, you know, we'd have the living theater coming crashing at the house. And we were at demonstrations and we were at festivals and teach ins and backstage at concerts and we went with her. I think it made us strong. All of us are able to talk to just about anybody. All of us, you know, believe in our own creativity and imagination as the most important thing. All of us have been taught to question authority and look underneath the surface of everything and not just go along to get along. And, you know, a lot of things like that that make you well equipped to lead whatever life you decide you want to lead.

CO: Is there a special memory you have? I'm sure there's many many. But is there anything particular you'd share with us that would tell us about your mum?

DOMINIQUE DI PRIMA: Yeah, there's a lot of things. I mean, I think my mom, you know, I'm African-American. My father is Amiri Baraka, the poet. And, you know, I'm the only kid they had together. But kids at school used to ask me if I was adopted because my mom was White and I was Black, so this was a while ago. But she marches up to school hollering, you know, don't they know that Black people and White people can have sex and have babies and they grow up to be children and families? And why would you keep asking my daughter if she's adopted? Of course, I was mortified. [Laughter] And this was like the end of the world. My life is over now. But in hindsight, I think, you know, here we are in a small, relatively hick town, you know, my mom's a single mom and she's just going to go up there and tell them about themselves. And, you know, that's just how she was. She was never going to back down.

CO: [Laughter] What a great story. I'm sure you know that over the spring and summer, the protests, Black Lives Matter, sweeping the country, sweeping the continent. And lots of people turn to your mother's Revolutionary Letters -- part of which she read at the beginning and posting quotations from them online. Was she aware of how many people were discovering or rediscovering her work?

DOMINIQUE DI PRIMA: I don't know that she knew the scope of it. But I do know that a lot of those folks showed up. Like when my mom was at the nursing home, when she was in the hospital, even when she was in her apartment and she needed stuff. I mean, we had a birthday party for her when she turned 80 and there were punk rockers and, you know, trans people and old hippies and beatniks. And it was the most diverse group of people. And it made me smile because it showed me that, you know, the people that my mom, you know, meant something to, they showed up for her and she was happy to embrace them. You know, I had a trans-woman tell me my mom was the first person to give her a pair of earrings. I had, you know, an old hippie telling me that my mom was one of the elders that never sold out. And I know that she was aware of that love because those folks showed up for her.

CO: Wow. Is there a line of her poetry you found yourself thinking about these last couple of days?

DOMINIQUE DI PRIMA: Yeah, I mean, I think about the poem Rant, you know. The war is the war of the imagination, right? Because I think about what's happening in our country with the election and everything and how we have a president who has lied at least 20,000 times since he's been in office and how he has perverted the American imagination into, you know, division and darkness and boorishness, you know, lack of character and how we can take that back with our own mindset and our own imagination, our own thoughts. And it is about reimagining. I mean, if you listen to Black Lives Matter, if you listen to poets, it's about reimagining what we think we live like, what we think people interact like, and what we think policing is going to be. And I think, you know, for me right now, you know, I'm missing my mom a lot and stuff. I just think that her honing in on the power and the importance of our imaginations is just a very important message right now.

CO: Dominique it is lovely to speak with you and thank you so much for telling us about your mother.

DOMINIQUE DI PRIMA: Thank you for telling the world about my mom.

CH: Dominique di Prima spoke to us from Los Angeles. Her mother, the poet Diane di Prima, died on Sunday at the age of 86. And you can find out more about her on our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Bally the deer

CH: You may not be able to trick or treat this year. But if you're looking for a last minute costume for your Halloween bubble bath or Zoom call: bally the deer might be the ticket. You'll just need a bright pink yoga ball and something to stick it to your head on Sunday. Kayla Vickers posted a photo of a deer she spotted roaming around Prince Rupert, British Columbia, with a pink yoga ball wedged between its antlers. Yesterday, Ms. Vickers spoke with CBC's Daybreak North about the now Internet famous Bally, and his predecessor Hammy the deer, who made headlines three years ago for sporting a purple hammock in his antlers.

KAYLA VICKERS: I was just really shocked when I seen it. I called the officers to inform them, to let them know that there is a big deer walking around with a pink bright ball in its antlers.

CAROLINA DE RYK: And what did they say?

KAYLA VICKERS: I kind of think he thought I was joking at first because he was like, what? And I was like, yeah, that is the big deer with a ball stuck between its antlers. And then he kind of started chuckling and then he said, all right, I'll let the officers know in Rupert.

CAROLINA DE RYK: And this was on Sunday that you saw the deer and you took some pictures and video of it. That's how we learned that there was another deer wandering around with an interesting headpiece stuck to it. What kind of reaction have you had to the photos and the video?

KAYLA VICKERS: Well, my first comment that I got from one of the pages in Rupert was Hammy 2.0. And then a lot of people were just like, he just wants to play basketball. And a lot of people are just giggling. And there was a one comment that asked if I called the officers and that was about it.

CAROLINA DE RYK: Mm hmm. And so, of course, we talked about their having been Hammy the deer a few years ago with the purple hammock cut to its antlers. Have you heard any names for this new deer?

KAYLA VICKERS: There is a Bally. I seen one that said Ball-doe. And then I just seen a lot of like Hammy 2.0s, Hammy's cousin and stuff like that.

CAROLINA DE RYK: Have you heard anything more from conservation about what they plan to do next?

KAYLA VICKERS: No, he said they would call me and update me if they find him, but I haven't received a call or anything.

CH: Kayla Vickers speaking with Daybreak North host, Carolina de Ryk, about a deer that's roaming around Prince Rupert, British Columbia with a pink yoga ball in its antlers. The B.C. Ministry of the Environment says the ball poses no risk to the. But if you're out there, keep your eyes peeled for Bally, a.k.a. Ball-doe the deer.

[Music]

Part 3: Thousands of Nazi artifacts looted from Netherlands war museum

Insulated shelters

Guest: Khaleel Seivwright

CH: In cities across the country, many homeless people have opted for tents instead of trying to get into shelters during the pandemic. And today in Ottawa, the prime minister said he's seen the problem and has a plan to help as the winter approaches.

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: Many folks have found themselves working from home and in cases where they've needed to self-isolate most Canadians have been able to do so because they have a roof over their heads. But imagine if you didn't have a home, especially during a Canadian winter. Sadly, that's the reality for far too many Canadians. And our government is taking action to change that. Last month, Minister Hussen announced an investment of one billion dollars for the new rapid housing initiative. The goal of the program is to give the most vulnerable a safe place to live by quickly creating up to 3000 new affordable housing units. The Rapid Housing Initiative will be equally split between the major cities stream and the projects stream. Right now, our largest cities face a growing need for safe and affordable housing. Today's announcement is part of our commitment to eliminate chronic homelessness in Canada, as we announced in the throne speech, while also creating good jobs in the housing and construction sectors.

CH: That was Prime Minister Justin Trudeau talking about his government's plan to create affordable housing during the pandemic. But as the winter turns colder, one Toronto carpenter isn't able to wait for the federal government to step in. Khaleel Seivwright has started building his own insulated structures to help people experiencing homelessness make it through the winter. We reached Mr. Seivwright in Toronto.

CO: Khaleel, can you just, first of all, describe one of your structures for us?

KHALEEL SEIVWRIGHT: Yeah, one of the structures is an eight foot by four foot by roughly five foot, two by six frame sort of shed-like structure that's on caster wheels insulated with standard insulation that you would use in a new house construction.

CO: And big enough, I guess, just to get in there and spend the night?

KS: You're going to have to sit straight up inside to lay down. It does feel like you're sort of camping, but it's like a lot quieter and just warmer.

CO: Who are you making this available to?

KS: I guess people that I see living in tents. Yeah. I just go up to them, different people, and just ask them, like, what are your plans this winter? And, you know, are you able to take care of yourself? And could you use one of these shelters?

CO: What inspired you to do this?

KS: Just seeing so many people living in tents and in Trinity - Bellwoods and Dufferin Grive, and I was like wow, an unusual sight, I guess. I've never seen so many tents out in some place. I didn't think much about it during the summer. But as I continued to like, just live my life and just continue to see like so many tents, it's like I wonder what people are going to do this coming winter. And like, I guess this is something I can do.

CO: Can you tell us about the first person you built one of these for?

KS: Yeah, his name is Ritchie. I just went up to him, saw him in a tent. I went up to him and just asked him how he was doing and if he could use shelter. And he said yeah, sure, that would be amazing. And I showed him a photo and he got really excited. And he said, how much? He asked me how much money it would cost. And I said, oh, I guess people are donating money so I can do it so I can give it to you for free. And like, I guess he was really happy about that.

CO: And has he moved in?

KS: Yeah. He's living in there right now.

CO: We are expecting a lot of people who are not going to have housing this winter. People who haven't been homeless before who are going to be probably losing their accommodations over the coming months. Do you think there'll be a lot of demand for something like your building?

KS: I think there definitely already is.

CO: Do you think you can supply enough of them for the numbers of people who might want a house like that?

KS: I think if the people that are messaging me with carpentry experience are as interested and committed, I think it's very possible to organize a team to be able to build these pretty consistently.

CO: Now, what are you going to do in the city? In the past, people have tried to find some way of building a structure for people who live. The city, comes in and says, no, that's against the law, that contravenes bylaws and building codes. What will you say if the city starts to crack down on your housing?

KS: Well, I guess I can only ask them to be lenient for sure. But I imagine in like circumstances like these, it would make sense for them to not crackdown if it's going to help people.

CO: Are you at all yourself worried about the possibility of fire or something in one of these structures?

KS: Yeah, I am concerned. I'm more concerned about carbon monoxide. I guess I've been putting smoke and carbon monoxide detectors in each one.

CO: We heard the prime minister say he is committing a billion dollars to create affordable housing units in the country, 3,000 new ones, apparently. Do you have any hope that this kind of money would help people you see every day sleeping out in Toronto?

KS: Yeah. If they're created, I imagine it definitely would. I'm not very intimately like aware of all the different issues, and maybe I'm being an idealist. But like, I think it would take like being a part of a community and not just sort of like a neighbourhood, but more of like I would say like an intentional community where someone would go to maybe sort of sort out whatever addictions that they have or whatever habits that they have that have them plaguing their life and just getting involved in positive things and getting involved in just where their food comes from. And like collecting water for themselves and like helping build their own shelters. And like, I imagine that this sort of community would be a very ideal place for someone to grow. And I only say that because I've gone through that sort of experience, and it's completely changed my life.

CO: Have you had to live on the street before yourself?

KS: Not exactly, no. Like, I always had a home for sure. But I was living in British Columbia for three years, and I guess one winter -- in that time I decided to not pay rent, and I was living in a tent in Vancouver for five months.

CO: S you know what it's like.

KS: Yeah, at least physically. But at the same time, I was able to get up and consistently go to work and like, you know, I didn't have so many other problems I was sort of dealing with. I didn't have an addiction that was really weighing me down.

CO: Khaleel we'll leave it there. I wish you success with this project of yours.

KS: Okay. Thank you.

CO: Thank you.

CH: We reached Khaleel Seivwright in Toronto.

[Music]

Qatar flight strip search

Guest: Wolfgang Babeck

CH: On October 2nd, after hours of waiting on the tarmac of a Doha airport, more than a dozen women were escorted off their Qatar Airways flight. They didn't know it, but authorities were searching for the mother of a newborn baby abandoned in the airport bathroom. According to the women, what happened next was both humiliating and traumatizing. One by one, each of them was forced to undergo an invasive physical exam to determine whether they might have given birth to that child. Wolfgang Babeck was one of the passengers on that Qatar Airways flight. We reached him in Sydney, Australia.

CO: Wolfgang, I know you have kept in touch with some of the women on this flight. How are they doing?

WOLFGANG BABECK: They are doing okay. They have been quite puzzled because the media coverage went from zero to 100. And it's a bit of a shock. And I think they are reliving this horrible experience.

CO: Of course, they would be. And just for you at the point when you realize what was happening, the plane was sitting on the tarmac for some time. And when did you think at least that something weird was going on?

WB: Well, we sat there for three hours. We knew something was wrong, but we were thinking this might be a security incident or technical incident. But, of course, nothing is associated with the baby. Shortly thereafter, there was an announcement that the women should disembark. And I thought this was unusual. Some security guards came on board and were then looking for a person which may have been hiding, a female person as it turned out, they wanted to make sure that the suspected mother is not on board.

CO: When you say the suspected mother, at what point did you learn what was going on? What was the reason for removing these women from the plane?

WB: Yeah, we only learned, of course, when the women came back and we learned immediately because one of the women was crying and everybody was very upset and shell shocked. News dissipated slowly. You know, this is a moment which is very delicate, very private. You don't want to ask any question, but certainly something horrific had occurred.

CO: And they were looking for a woman who would appear to have recently given birth.

WB: Yeah, that is the case. So they wanted to assess with a medical examination that none of the women on the plane were the mother. And that is, of course, an extremely intrusive activity. And nobody had been asked to give permission or, you know, had been warned or anything. So I believe this is a blatant violation of human rights.

CO: And so as you learn the story, as these very distressed women return to the plane, what was going through your mind?

WB: Well, first of all, I was happy that my wife wasn't along with me. And I thought, what would I have done? But I think, you know, everybody was so puzzled with themselves. Nobody could believe what had happened. I think this is not just Australians. This is many different passengers from around the world. So everybody was desperate to get home. And I think it was just overwhelmed by this incident. So only later, the discussion ranked around, well, what do we do now? Do we inform various embassies? Should we contact the press? So these thoughts were going around. Because I'm an expert in international constitutional law, I offered my advice with respect to human rights.

CO: Do you know what kind of examination the women had? Did they tell you much about how intrusive this was?

WB: Well, at the time, I told you how delicate it was. I was only aware they had to take off their clothes from bottom down, which is super shocking, and that they had been well touched on the abdomen to feel whether, you know, probably the belly is still ablated and whether they could be the mother. I understand now from two of the women who have now found the courage to speak out a bit more in detail that some of the assessment had even been more intrusive.

CO: What do you know is happening now? The Australian government has spoken out strongly against this and you're in contact with the women. What can they do? I mean, are they demanding answers from Qatar about how this could have happened and what should be done about it?

WB: Yeah, most certainly so. I think they are looking for an apology. I've heard that somebody might be looking for legal action or compensation. Somebody mentioned class action. I don't know. But I think, of course, the main element for these women and they are very strong women among them, they admire all characters. It's not so much about their own personal gain, but rather they would like to, you know, assist women around the world that they are treated with dignity and respect as they should be. Their hope is that this ordeal that they had to go through will be beneficial going forward to make aware of these circumstances so that they are never repeated.

CO: Do you know if the authorities in Qatar found the mother of the baby?

WB: Yes. I understand that the baby is being looked after and is well. And, you know, again, we have to differentiate. There's the airline, which is independent. There's the airport staff, which is an independent organization. There is the government of Qatar. So I think it's important to await the report, to understand, you know, who were they put people instructing these activities, but also to allow for a change of mind, because I guess the normality with how this was conducted is extremely disturbing.

CO: It is a very disturbing story. Wolfgang, I appreciate that you would tell us about it. Thank you.

WB: Very nice speaking to you Carol.

CH: Wolfgang Babeck was one of the passengers on a Qatar Airways flight on October 2nd. We reached him in Sydney, Australia.

[Music]

Nazi artefacts stolen

Guest: Jan de Jonge

CH: One robbery would be shocking enough, but across the Netherlands several war museums have been targeted. And the robbers all seem to be after the same thing: memorabilia from German forces and the Nazi regime during the Second World War. One of the places targeted was the Oorlogsmuseum in the village of Ossendrecht, near the border with Belgium. In the dead of night two weeks ago, thieves broke in and stole everything from SS uniforms to parachutes to rifles. Jan de Jonge owns the museum and lives there too. But when the thieves broke in, he didn't hear a thing. We reached him in Ossendrecht.

CO: Jan you live inside, you live in this museum. How did you not know that it had been looted?

JAN DE JONGE: That's sort of a strange thing. We were normal sleeping the whole night. And the nearest place where they took things was about five metres from our bed. So close it was. But there is a wall between, so we did not hear a thing. And I discovered it the next day around 12:00 or so.

CO: Right. How did you discover it?

JAN DE JONGE: We had our normal morning program for old people slowly and did a little bit shopping. And on the front of the house was nothing to see. And because we are at a big complex, about 800, 900 square metres. And so then at 12 o'clock or 12:30, I went on the back for some wood for the stove. And then I saw, hey, there is a bicycle standing outside. How is that possible? Normally it's in the museum. And then I discovered the back door was destroyed. And I said, how is that possible? Then I went in and I could not believe my eyes. There was damage, and so on and so on. 23 complete mannequins.

CO: Wow. And when you say the mannequins, these were the uniforms of these soldiers on these mannequins with their helmets. These are German uniforms. Is that right?

JAN DE JONGE: Yes. Most of it. German. Yes. And only the special uniforms like paratroopers because I collected it and it was very hard to collect. I had to look for a whole list to find these things. But because these paratroopers were fighting in this area, it was very defended by the Germans. And we were liberated by the Canadians. And it took the Canadians three weeks to go five kilometres away. So you can understand it was really hard fighting.

CO: You have artifacts, you have uniforms and whatnot from both the Canadian and French soldiers. But they didn't steal those things. Is that right?

JAN DE JONGE: No, no, no. That's right. Yeah. The Germans say that was their interest, because after the war, everyone hated the Germans. So they threw away a lot of things. And that's the reason it's now so scarce, I think. And yeah, they took that chance to take it for free.

CO: But your museum is not the only one that has been robbed of this German and Nazi linked artifacts. A number of museums have been hit. Is it for their commercial value or their sentimental value that people are stealing?

JAN DE JONGE: Yeah. In the first place I thought it must be commercial, but there is also a helmet stolen with a very special history. And it was a very bad rusty helmet. There was a big hole in it from shrapnel and some dents and so on. But I found it 45 years ago on the border of a ditch. But only four or five years ago, we found out who was the owner of the helmet.

CO: And you know his name?

JAN DE JONGE: Yes. After that long time, we found out his name.

CO: So what do you think? If they're stealing something like that German paratrooper helmet, is it because the thieves are looking for these things because they they want to celebrate the German and Nazi linked artifacts, or is it because they can sell them?

JAN DE JONGE: No way. I don't think so. I don't know the word in English, sorry. But we have no idea why. They stole I think nine brand new paratrooper helmets. I can understand that because the value is each one is at least 5000 euro. So you can understand that they are valuable things. But that rusty helmet has no value, only emotional value.

CO: What's the value do you think -- if you can put a price on what you've had stolen, what would it be?

JAN DE JONGE: We did not count it because you understand I'm a bit -- how do you say? Paralyzed? So I do not much work the last two weeks. But it can be around a million.

CO: Million euros.

JAN DE JONGE: Million euros, yes.

CO: Any chance the police might find who stole these items?

JAN DE JONGE: No, not till yet. We had one thing -- we followed one spot, but there was nothing. Someone had seen someone in the storehouse, mannequin with uniform. He called me and I called the police and they take a look. They make a picture of it. He showed it to me. I said, no, that's not my material. These are new uniforms. Completely different from ours.

CO: If you could speak directly to those thieves who stole your museum artifacts, what would you say to them?

JAN DE JONGE: I have no idea what to say. What can I say to these people? It's very sad for me because I'm 77 years old and I collect it all my life. So it was very difficult to get it together. And some have long-time memories and are special things that I've found and so on. And that's all lost.

CO: Jan I'm sorry this happened to you, but I do appreciate you telling us this story. Thank you.

JAN DE JONGE: Yeah. Thank you.

CH: Jan de Jonge is the owner and operator of the Oorlogsmuseum in Ossendrecht, a village in the Netherlands. We reached him there. And for some photographs of the memorabilia that were stolen, go to our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Very NIce

BORAT: [Soundclip: My name is Borat. I like you. I like sex. It's nice. There is my country of Kazakhstan.]

CH: That's Sacha Baron Cohen playing Borat, the fictional journalist from Kazakhstan. His first movie was a worldwide hit and spawned a million irritating dad jokes, which consisted entirely of saying "very nice."

SCOTT MORRISON: [Soundclip: Some might call this a carbon tax, Mr. Speaker. I call it the Borat tax Mr. Speaker. The Borat tax, which was put on by the Labour Party with carbon credits -- Kazakhstan. And I know what I know what Borat would think of the Labour Party's policies on emissions reduction, Mr. Speaker. "Very nice. Very nice." That's what they'd be thinking.]

CH: That was Australian Prime Minister Scott Morrison proving my point in the most bloodcurdling way possible, last year in parliament. [Crowd sounds] Those were residents of the village of Glod, Romania, where Sacha Baron Cohen shot the fake Kazakhstan scenes for his first movie. They're saying Borat filmed us completely wrongly, he made fun of our village, and Borat should be locked up. And this week, the Kazakh American Association expressed their concern that the brand new Borat sequel, "May cause irreparable harm to Kazakhstan's national image and people as its comedic nature may justify ethnicity based harassment." So given all the damage Borat has done, Kazakhstan's new tourism campaign is kind of surprising. In four different ads, people experience a different aspect of Kazakh culture. And here they are all cut together. [Music plays and people saying "Very nice"] Yep, that's Kazakhstan's new tourism slogan. It's a mixture of cunning and capitulation because ultimately they know you can't stop people from saying "very nice" but you can show them there are things in your country to say very nice about. They looked at the silly central figure in their ongoing crisis and decided they could berate or they could be Borat.

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October 27, 2020 Episode Transcript

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