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The AIH Transcript for January 19, 2021

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

CO: Weather or not. One of the climbers who just made history by summiting K2 in winter says the team faced temperatures as low as -70 and dangerously high winds and even more dangerous heights.

CH: Not free and not fair. First, Ugandan presidential candidate Bobi Wine lost the election and now he's lost his freedom. We reached him at home where he's surrounded by security forces and running out of food.

CO: Slowpokes. Canada's procurement minister admits that COVID vaccinations are about to hit a major hurdle as Pfizer tells Canada, the imminent slowdown in delivery will actually be a total shutdown.

CH: Getting a move on. Behind the scenes of tomorrow's presidential inauguration in the U.S.. White House staff will race to move the old president out and the new president in -- a process our guest describes as always, chaotic.

CO: The fast and the spear-ious. An Ottawa man knows he's on thin ice when he straps on his homemade jet pack to go skating on the Ottawa River. But he's throwing caution to the wind that he's creating.

CH: And the end of the rodent. Alberta is famously rat free, so a surge in sightings in the province seems concerning, except almost none of the sightings were rats because Albertans no longer even know what rats look like. As It Happens. The Tuesday Edition. Radio that specialises in tails of the unexpected.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: These climbers from Nepal just became the first to conquer K2 in winter

K2 Climber

Guest: Nimsdai Purja

CH: One American climber described K2 as a savage mountain that tries to kill you. K2 straddles the border of Pakistan and China. It's the second highest mountain in the world after Everest, but it's considered a far more deadly technical climb and it's especially treacherous in winter. In fact, no one had conquered K2 in the winter until now. On the weekend, a Nepalese team reached the summit. Elite climber Nimsdai Purja was part of the group. We reached Mr. Purja at K2 Base Camp near Skardu in northern Pakistan.

CO: Nimsdai, how are you feeling after that incredible climb?

NIMSDAI PURJA: I'm feeling good. I'm fully recharged. And yeah, I think that the whole endeavour wasn't about a personal goal, it was about the whole Nepalese climbing community and all that. And together we made the impossible possible. So absolutely honoured to be part of that team.

CO: You got a bit of frostbite I understand.

NP: A little bit, you know, but that happened on my first rotation. That's why it was so tricky to do, to go up again, having obviously frostbite on the first rotation, but managed to handle it well.

CO: Now, when you say that, how historic this is, because K2 is notoriously difficult to climb at all, but especially in the winter. This is the first time this has been achieved. Can you tell us why it's so difficult to do this climb in the winter season?

NP: The biggest challenge here is the weather. So, you know, you can get the hurricane force (winds) and then the temperatures up to -70 degrees Celsius. And the terrain itself is so technical, it's so steep and you have to climb so many blue ice and the rock. Yeah, it's the world's second highest mountain, so it's very challenging.

CO: Did you say -70?

NP: Yeah. -70 degrees Celsius.

CO: [Chuckles in shock] Okay. How do you deal with that? know you're Sherpa, you have done this, you have challenged yourself in so many ways. But are there just moments when you really wonder what am I doing here?

NP: To be honest, I didn't really have those kind of moments because for a mission like this you need a purpose, you need a goal, you need a good reason why you are doing this. And I had an absolute a kind of purpose, reason, and mission. But yeah, you are absolutely right -- you know, on the summit that morning, we set up around 2:00. Oh my day! It was extremely extremely super cold. And some of the guys who are in the team are like top climbers. And the members were thinking of turning around and all that. So that's how extreme this is.

CO: Not just the cold, but the wind -- you say hurricane force winds. Did you have much wind in your climb and descent?

NP: Yes, we did. And I felt like the mountain god was saying, if you want to leave from here, you need to earn your living. And it was like that. So we had to kneel down [coughs] put our safety on. And yeah, it was crazy.

CO: Okay, when you got to the top, what was it like to stand atop K2? What were you feeling at that point?

NP: So we all stopped 10 metres away from the summit and we were all shoulder to shoulder, and we sang the national anthem of Nepal and we walked to the summit together. And that was probably the most emotional part of the whole journey, being able to stand at the summit together with the same mission, same goal, and same ambitions.

CO: And this was entirely Nepalese climbers who made this ascent. And you're all there together. At the same time, there was a man from Spain who didn't make it. Can you tell us about what happened to him?

NP: Yeah. Sergeant Mingote, he was a great friend of mine as well, and so many team members knew him. And unfortunately, while he was descending, an accident happened and yeah, he passed away, unfortunately. He was a really good guy, really humble guy, and I absolutely believe that. He unfortunately passed away doing what he loved doing. But that's the nature of the business.

CO: Did he fall down a crevasse? Is that the story?

NP: No, no. He fell off the mountain, you know, from like a 60 degree slope.

CO: And he was a very experienced climber, as all of you. I'm sorry for your loss of your friend.

NP: Yeah, he was a very experienced climber.

CO: You are an experienced climber. You have 14 mountains, rolled over where there's 8000 metres, you have done them. And now you have tackled K2 successfully in the winter. How does it compare?

NP: It was a completely different mission. What I did in the last year was, you know, it was huge, a different kind of feat because I was climbing 14 peaks, 14,000 metre peaks, it was non-stop. But K2 winter is also different, it is difficult. But you can't compare because they are different kind of missions.

CO: And when you're doing that climb, [Nimsdai coughs] -- many other climbers are saying they're seeing more evidence of climate change. The mountains are changing. The conditions are changing. Did you witness that?

NP: Yeah, I have seen that [coughs] through my eyes. And it is the reason why I've been trying to raise awareness about climate change and global warming. The biggest thing that I can talk about was when I was in Nepal this year, there's a huge glacier that used to be a glacier before, but now [coughs] it's just a lake. And it's very sad to see, you know, all the glaciers are melting away and all that. So one of the things that I'm trying to do through my platform is to raise awareness about [coughs] global warming, climate change and all that -- how we know this decade is so important for our humankind in order to run the sustainable environment. So, yeah, I have seen the effect in the big mountains.

CO: The cough you have is that because of your climb?

NP: [Coughs] I had this before I went to the summits and I still have it.

CO: Yikes!

NP: Yikes, yeah.

CO: [Chuckles] And not only that you have a cough, but I know you're in the K2 base camp and there is a party to celebrate your last night there. So I'm going to let you go Nimsdai. And I appreciate so much talking to you. Thank you.

NP: Thank you so much. Thank you.

CH: That was climber Nimsdai Purja. We reached him at K2 Base Camp in Pakistan. And you can find more on that story, including some photos on our webpage: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Guitar Music]

Inauguration Transition Day

Guest: Anita McBride

CH: Tomorrow, over just a few hours, the White House will go from the home of the Trumps to the home of the Bidens -- and one other major addition, the Bidens' dog, Major. As is typical on Inauguration Day, staff will have to do a move out, a clean up and a move and in extremely short order -- compounding the usual difficulties as outgoing President Trump's refusal to follow the conventions of U.S. presidential transitions. Anita McBride was the chief of staff to First Lady Laura Bush. She's now part of the School of Public Affairs at the American University in D.C. That's where we reached her.

CO: Ms. McBride, I know you have been at the White House on moving day. What do you think the scene will be like tomorrow?

ANITA MCBRIDE: Well, the scene tomorrow, inaugural morning, will be a little bit different than what we have grown accustomed to here on inauguration morning at the White House. There will be no visit of the president elect and first lady to be, and vice president elect and her spouse for the customary greeting and the escort from the congressional planning committee up to the Capitol. So the morning will be different in that respect. Also the departure of the current president, President Trump, leaving from the South Lawn on Marine One about 7:30 in the morning to go to Andrews Air Force Base for a send-off there. The one good thing about that is that means the house will be vacant and the residence staff can get to work on preparing for the new First-family a little bit quicker than customarily they could do.

CO: Right. So I know it's a big turnover, getting one First-family out and the other in. But in this case, what will it be like emotionally? Because there have been incredible stories about how the emotional departure -- the president coming in and president leaving, but also the relationship with the staff and how important those last moments are. How different will this one be, do you think?

AM: Well, I think you're absolutely right. And having witnessed that emotional departure of an outgoing First-family with the resident staff -- they get close to the family, they're taking care of them, they know their habits. And irregardless of any controversy or difficulty with an administration, the household staff is there for very different reasons -- they're there to take care of you. And the departure is always emotional. It's generally the First-family that sets the tone. So I think it depends on how the president is feeling, the first lady's feeling on how that departure will go on. Maybe we'll hear a little bit about that after it's over.

CO: But you from your work as chief of staff to first lady Laura Bush. We know of her husband, President Bush, they were very emotional when they were saying goodbye.

AM: They were very emotional, absolutely. And they all of the staff was assembled together in the East Room -- all 100 members of the White House residence staff were assembled to say goodbye to the president and first lady and their family, Barbara and Jenna -- their daughters were there. But also gave it an extra layer of sentimentality was George H.W. Bush and Barbara Bush were there. So there were these double layers of emotion because the Bushes, George and Laura Bush and Barbara and George H.W. Bush knew these resident staff members for many years. And yes, so having witnessed that, I'm sorry for the First-family that's leaving and I'm sorry for the resident staff if that kind of just pure emotion of the occupants of the White House leaving, if that doesn't happen.

CO: And apparently what we've heard is that Mr. Trump is not particularly close with the staff there. When you were with Laura Bush, the graciousness with which she greeted Michelle Obama into the house -- and apparently there hasn't even been an acknowledgement of anything to Jill Biden from Melania Trump. How different is that?

AM: Well, I think that that's unfortunate because I think that that is also one of the hallmarks of the peaceful transfer. Even after a bruising campaign, and I've been through three transitions so I know this firsthand. You know, in 1992, when George H.W. Bush lost, that was a bruising campaign for both families, for the Clintons and for the Bushes. Yet Barbara Bush, of course, took Hillary Clinton by the hand and took her through the residence. Laura Bush did the same for Michelle Obama not only one time, but two time because she asked her to come back with her mother, who would be living there and to bring her daughters because Mrs. Bush knew that Michelle Obama as a mother was going to be most concerned about her daughters feeling comfortable and that they fit in to this new home. And so Laura Bush wanted her daughters to see their bedrooms, knowing that that would help. And so, of course, those things went a long way, not only just for the moment and helping the nation get past a bruising campaign, but also for afterwards, because there were times now that Michelle Obama and Laura Bush could work together on things, times when they see each other at different events.

CO: The scene tomorrow -- I guess you're saying it'll be somewhat easier because the Trumps will be gone, and usually the family is there right to the end and then there's that quick turnover. But that won't happen tomorrow. But the Bidens, I guess, have the advantage that they know where the bathrooms are, right?

AM: [Laughs] They know a lot about the White House. That's true. They've been there as guests. Of course, they've never lived there. So it still is a, you know, daunting prospect to change. But there's more familiarity there than many past families -- arguably, you know, the Bushes knew quite a bit. But that will be a help to them, of course.

CO: And what can they expect? I mean, will their clothes be hanging in the closet, toothbrushes in the holders in the bathroom, all of that?

AM: Yes, that's part of the transfer that the residence staff will handle. They will unpack the boxes that the Bidens have sent ahead to be ready to be unpacked with clothes, and clothes to be hung in the closets. Beds for any of the guests that will be staying will be made and ready, and those guest rooms will be prepared for family members that, of course, will stay that first night. I can't imagine that won't happen. Down to toothbrushes and toothpaste. A little family kitchen that's near their bedroom will be stocked with their favourite snacks and things that they would have asked for or at least provided a list of ahead of time. So yes, to that level of detail.

CO: In four or five hours?

AM: In five hours. And this is also layered over, of course, a very thorough cleaning that needs to be done, in this time of COVID. And also one room, do not forget, that also gets transformed is the Oval Office, because a new president would have selected from choices being given to him rugs that are in the White House collection that other presidents have used, maybe he wants to change the desk, art that he wants hung on the wall. He won't walk into an empty space.

CO: Okay, we will leave it there. That's quite a picture you have painted Ms. McBride. And I appreciate it. Thank you.

AM: Sure. Thank you.

CH: Anita McBride was the chief of staff for first lady Laura Bush. She was also the director of White House personnel under Presidents Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush. We reached her in Washington, D.C..

[Music: Calm Guitar Music]

Ottawa Propeller Skater

Guest: Brydon Gibson

CH: Let me start with a disclaimer, we're not suggesting you try this at home. In fact, we're absolutely insisting you not try it. Brydon Gibson himself admits his gadget probably wouldn't pass an official safety inspection, but he also knows that sometimes you've just got to head out to a frozen sheet of ice, lace up your skates, strap an old propeller hooked up to a weed whacker motor to your back, and let'er rip. Yeah, Brydon Gibson McGyvered his very own jetpack. And with skates in hand, he hit the Ottawa River. We reached Mr. Gibson in Ottawa.

CO: Brydon, do you plan to be out with your propelled skating apparatus this afternoon?

BRYDON GIBSON: I don't think so this afternoon, but definitely sometime soon.

CO: The conditions are good?

BG: The conditions are getting better on the ice. Yeah.

CO: This is the Ottawa River you're talking, right?

BG: Right.

CO: So now most people go out skating for exercise. So what compelled you to put a gas powered propeller on your back to head down the river?

BG: So I usually go for skating for exercise too, but I like to have fun sometimes. And I figure it would be worth a shot to try something a little more extreme.

CO: [Chuckles] So can you describe this machine that you have invented?

BG: Sure. So it's a weed wacker motor pulled out of an old weed whacker, a radio controlled airplane propeller and fuel system. And then the throttle is controlled by a bike break from a bike I found on the side of the road.

CO: And how is it attached to you?

BG: Backpack straps I pulled off a backpack I got at the dollar store.

CO: Is it heavy?

BG: Yeah, it's about 15 pounds and it hangs pretty far off your back. So it does get heavy pretty quick.

CO: So what I've seen is that there's no casing, there's nothing around it. So this propeller is just out there. Are you worried that it's going to whack you at some point?

BG: Everyone I've been with, we all take safety precautions. You stay away from the person who has it on while it's running. But, yeah, it's a little concerning at times that you're sitting around with a giant disc on your back.

CO: And how fast do you go?

BG: With the wind, I had it up to what felt like about 40 kilometres an hour. I haven't clocked it yet, but it was concerningly fast. I was backing off the throttle because it was pushing me a little too quick.

CO: And you're on your blades, right? You're on your skates?

BG: Yes.

CO: Going down the Ottawa River at that speed. And you said you got this brake system that you found, how much control do you have over it?

BG: [Chuckles] It is a little finicky, I'll be honest. The carburettor definitely needs work. So sometimes it'll bog down. Sometimes when you back off the throttle, it won't quite slow down right away. So not the most control.

CO: Just to get it started, you need someone else to help you with that, right?

BG: Yeah.

CO: Can you describe what you do and how it works?

BG: So just like an old fashioned airplane, you just have to spin the propeller by hand. There's no pull-start or anything. So yeah, your hands are right in the danger zone when starting it.

CO: [Chuckles] Not your hands but the person who's doing it for you.

BG: Exactly. It's not my problem. [Laughter]

CO: And so they get it started and then they back away really fast?

BG: Exactly.

CO: And then do you start right away? I mean, can you decide whether you're going to go down the river or not or do you just start to blow?

BG: Just start going. I usually let it warm up a little bit. So you just stand there chatting with your friend with a weed whacker idling on your back.

CO: Uh huh. And I noticed you're not wearing a helmet.

BG: No.

CO: Has your mother seen this?

BG: My mother has tried it.

CO: [Laughter] Okay. How did she find it?

BG: She was laughing the whole time. She didn't wear a helmet either.

CO: And have you been able to encourage anybody else to do it?

BG: Anyone I've done it with has tried it as well because you need someone to start it. So we usually take turns.

CO: Is your mom kind of used to your inventions? I mean, this isn't your first one, is it?

BG: No, this is the norm. So she's kind of getting used to it.

CO: So what is your basement like? How many of these projects have you had going?

BG: So at the moment I'm actually sitting in a workshop right now working on a little mini-rover that I'm building. But I probably have five or six projects kind of like this on the go at the same time.

CO: So you're just constantly finding little bits and bobs and taking them apart and making them do something else.

BG: Yeah, I'm much more of a woodworker, so I build guitars as a main hobby. And then these are just kind of when things come along.

CO: Is anyone going to be looking for that weed whacker that you incorporated into this come this summer when they need it?

BG: I paid full price for that weed whacker and it is legally mine.

CO: So you've had some investor interest in your project, is that right?

BG: Yeah, surprisingly.

CO: Tell us about that.

BG: Someone messaged me out of the blue and said, 'Hey, I'm an investor. I'm interested in getting involved in this. What would it take to ramp up manufacturing?' I basically told him no, because I don't really want to be the reason that someone goes and gets killed because of this.

CO: And you believe that's a possibility?

BG: Oh, absolutely, yeah.

CO: Okay. And so you are just going to use this for yourself and try and keep your friend's fingers from getting too close to the blades.

BG: Yeah. Actually the councillor of my town reached out and asked me to build her one, so I'm going to let her try it out first and then we'll see.

CO: Okay. I understand you got some good skating weather coming in Ottawa in the next few days.

BG: Yeah, I'm really excited to get back on the ice.

CO: All right. [Chuckles] Have fun and stay safe.

BG: Thanks. You too.

CH: That was Ottawa inventor Brydon Gibson, he built a homemade jetpack using an old propeller and a weed wacker motor. He was in Ottawa.

[Music: Pop Music]

Rats

CH: If you're a criminal mastermind, you're looking for the biggest possible score: high risk, high reward. It don't mean nothing that a bunch of palookas got busted or even bumped off trying to pull off the same job. You got your beady eyes on the big prize: Alberta. To rats, Alberta is like the casino in Ocean's Eleven and Fort Knox put together because for 70 years the province has been virtually rat free. In 1950, it established a program to crush the invasive Norway rats, and it did with brutal efficiency. So at first it's alarming that Alberta recorded 481 rat sightings in 2020. But no, according to officials, only 17 of those sightings were actually rats, most of which tried the old trick of stowing away on transport trucks to cross the border. No dice. They got figured. And about half of those 481 sightings were actually muskrats, which shows a small flaw in the system. As Karen Wickerson, with the province's rat control program, told the CBC, Albertans are very keen to help keep their province rat free, but "because we don't have a resident population of rats in Alberta, they don't know what a rat looks like." Speaking as someone who lives in Toronto, it must be nice. And you have to admire Albertans' enthusiasm -- doesn't matter where they live or what they do, they're all caught up in the anti rat race.

[Music: Hip-hop Music]

Part 2: Bobi Wine

Bobi Wine

Guest: Bobi Wine

CH: Bobi Wine is running out of options. Uganda's leading opposition candidate for president is under house arrest, surrounded by security officials. Mr. Wine says he is the rightful winner of last Thursday's election and claims to have evidence to prove widespread fraud. That's despite the country's electoral commission announcing that incumbent President Yoweri Museveni won a sixth term. Mr. Wine has little legal recourse in Uganda, but countries like the U.S. and Canada have spoken out. Canada's Foreign Affairs Department said in a statement, "We call on Ugandan authorities to grant immediate freedom of movement to Bobi Wine to investigate claims of election irregularities and security force violence and to ensure the rights and freedoms of all Ugandans are respected." We reached Bobi Wine in Kampala.

CO: Bobi Wine, we know that your home is surrounded by security forces. You have been cut off the Internet, so it's hard to get a good phone line to you. But also we're hearing that your food supplies have been cut off as well. Is that the case?

BOBI WINE: Yes, I have been surrounded for the last five days now. This is the fifth day. My lawyers, my political party officials -- have all been blocked.

CO: We heard that the U.S. ambassador attempted to visit you and was denied any access. Is that the case?

BW: Yes. Nobody is taken to us from the police or the military. That is why my lawyers have gone ahead to file in court, a petition, for the court to give an order of habeas corpus so that my wife and I can be presented in court if there are any charges against us.

CO: Okay. So just saying that your lawyer is attempting to get a habeas corpus in order to get you at least before a court to petition this. We know that Yoweri Museveni claims to have won. The electoral commission in Uganda said he had 59 percent of the vote and that you had only 35 percent. You have said elsewhere there is evidence that the vote was tampered with, there was many irregularities. What evidence do you have of that?

BW: Well, we have video evidence and picture evidence and also statistical evidence that we won. We have videos of the military ballot stuffing. We have videos of the military order people at gunpoint to vote for their preferred candidate. And so many of our polling agents were arrested by the police and military.

CO: Okay I'm going to repeat back. You have video of ballot stuffing, military ordering people at gunpoint to vote for Mr. Museveni, and you have not just video, you have statistical evidence. Where can you and how can you present that evidence?

BW: Social media -- it's the media that we have access to. And we have mentioned that we are going to petition all kinds of court locally and internationally.

CO: You're going to ask for not just your own courts, but also international courts to intervene. The Biden administration's incoming national security advisor, Jake Sullivan, has said that this election was flawed. He says the world is watching. Canada is saying that you have to be released, that this is not acceptable. Is that helpful to you when you have the international attention that seems to be coming your way?

BW: For sure. International attention seems to be our only way out because General Museveni almost certainly have succeeded in blackmailing most of the regional leaders and that is why we have not had a voice from the East African community or the African Union. And yet all the violence was clear and all the impunity was clear. We have petitioned the International Criminal Court against General Museveni's atrocities against the people of Uganda. But also we have called upon the development partners, the United States, the European Union, Canada and all of the other countries that we have a diplomatic relationship with.

CO: Your being held by the military, you're in military custody in your own home. You're a civilian, that's a violation of international law. What cards can you play at this point, given that you are confined by the military?

BW: We are a group of people that believes in the rule of law and that believes in non-violence. We have always anchored our arguments on the law. I deserve a right to freedom of expression, freedom from detention, and freedom of association, and freedom of movement. And if I have to answer them, -- let the police present me in any competent court and I would be happy to face the law.

CO: If I just repeat back, your principal demand is to be allowed to be before a competent court in order to make your case.

BW: Yes, that is what we are demanding so I can make my case.

CO: I want to ask you one last question, even though it's hard to hear you, but you are 38 years old, you have spent almost your entire life under the authority of President Museveni. So many of your followers are young in Uganda. What is your message to them? What are you trying to say to all those young people who have had their whole lives under the same president?

BW: My message to the young people in Uganda and all of Africa and the world is that it is time for us to define ourselves. We can no longer be defined by the impunity of the older generation. We are not a third world continent or third world country. We only have third world leaders. So don't look at it as a Bobi Wine issue or as an issue of Uganda. Martin Luther King said injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.

CO: I'll repeat back. It's time for us to be defined by ourselves and not by the older generation. We are not a third world country in Uganda, but we have a third world leader. We want to define ourselves. This is not an issue of Bobi Wine. This is an issue for all Ugandans and for Africa. Is that right?

BW: That is right.

CO: Mr. Wine, I appreciate speaking with you. I hope you are safe and that you are released soon.

BW: Thank you very much for having me.

CH: Bobi Wine is one of Uganda's leading opposition figures. We reached him in Kampala.

[Music: Calm Music]

Pfizer Vaccines

CH: Canada's coronavirus vaccination efforts are about to hit a choke point. Pfizer had warned Canada and other countries that it would have to slow deliveries as it expands a European plant. But this morning, Dany Fortin, the Major General responsible for getting those vaccines to the provinces, delivered an update. He was joined by Anita Anand, the federal procurement minister. They had had a call from Pfizer and the news was not good.

DANY FORTIN: The manufacturer has reiterated that they're applying this significant reduction across the board. Some countries have been impacted more severely this week. We have not been very likely impacted. Our impact is more severe next week. We're expecting to receive some. We're now seeing that our entire expected shipment is deferred for next week and then the numbers are starting to pick back up in the first weeks of February.

REPORTER: I understand what you're saying Major General, about some countries having been more impacted this week. However, some countries like Spain, we're seeing only about a 50 percent reduction this week and then their delivery schedule again, were picking up the week following, whereas it seems that we're having a bit more of a reduction and not as quick as an end to those reductions. But Minister Anand you mentioned in your comments that it's possible that we're going to be seeing further supply issues/ Has Pfizer made any guarantees that we won't be seeing any further reductions in their supplies? Are there other options that Canada can consider like perhaps paying more for vaccines so that we don't continue to see any reduction?

ANITA ANAND: One of the positive moments in the conversation with Pfizer was indeed the assurance that we received that they remain on track to deliver the allotment to Canada that had been promised. And together with the Moderna shipment, we are on track for our Q1 deliveries. Having said that, in every conversation that I have with every supplier, I am reiterating the importance of earlier and earlier deliveries, including in Q1 -- and that will not change. Every conversation that I have, I will stress the urgency of the situation that Canada is in, and I will stress the importance of having dosis in this country as soon as possible.

CH: That was Federal Procurement Minister Anita Anand taking questions from reporters alongside Major General Dany Fortin.

[Music: Guitar Music]

Reporting on Trump

Guest: Seung Min Kim

CH: For a lot of Americans, the past four years have felt much longer. But there are some for whom Donald Trump's presidency has been uniquely interminable. A group of women and men he repeatedly attacked and berated throughout his tenure: journalists in Washington.

WEIJIA JIANG: Many Americans are saying that you should have warned them the virus was spreading like wildfire through the month of February instead of holding rallies with thousands of people. Why did you wait so long?

DONALD TRUMP: Who are you with?

WEIJIA JIANG: And why did you not have social distancing until March 16th?

DONALD TRUMP: Who are you with?

WEIJIA JIANG: I'm Weijia Jiang with CBS News.

DONALD TRUMP: If you look at what I did in terms of banning China from coming in...

WEIJIA JIANG: China nationals. But by the way, not Americans who are also...

DONALD TRUMP: Nice and easy. Nice and easy. Just relax.

REPORTER 1: There will be nearly 200 dead, 14,000 who are sick, millions -- as you witness -- who are scared right now. What do you say to Americans who are watching you right now who are scared?

DONALD TRUMP: I say that you're a terrible reporter. That's what I say.

YAMICHE ALCINDOR: Hi, Mr. President. Yamiche Alcindor with PBS NewsHour. On the campaign trail, you called yourself a nationalist. Some people saw that as emboldening White nationalist. Now people are saying...

DANY FORTIN: I don't why you'd say that. That's such a racist question.

YAMICHE ALCINDOR: There are some people that say that now the Republican Party is seen as supporting White nationalists because of your rhetoric.

DONALD TRUMP: Oh I don't believe that.

YAMICHE ALCINDOR: What do you make of that?

DONALD TRUMP: I don't believe that. Well, I don't know. Why do I have my highest poll numbers ever with African-Americans? That's such a racist question, honestly. I mean, I know you have it written down and you're going to tell me. Let me tell you, that's a racist question.

REPORTER 2: I know you don't want to talk about the inspector general's report, but testing is still a big issue in this country. When can hospitals expect to receive a quick turnaround for test results?

DONALD TRUMP: Are you ready? Hospitals can do their own testing also. States can do their own testing. And you should say congratulations, great job, instead of being so horrid in the way you ask a question. Please go ahead.

CH: Just a few examples of outgoing U.S. President Donald Trump's heated encounters with reporters in Washington over the past four years. Mr. Trump's presidency has, of course, been historic in countless ways, and his treatment of the journalists covering those history-making moments has been amongst them. Seung Min Kim as a White House reporter for The Washington Post. We reached her in Washington, D.C..

CO: Seung Min, you've heard all of those comments. You know those exchanges. What's it like to hear them all piled up like that?

SEUNG MIN KIM: Well, it's quite the trip down memory lane [chuckles] of just the aggressive and adversarial and toxic, the relationship that this president, this administration had with members of the news media. And obviously in a healthy democracy such as ours, you want any relationship with the press corps and any White House of either party to be strongly adversarial one. But President Trump took it to a new level. There hasn't been in recent memory a president who was so obsessed with media coverage, with how he was portrayed in the news, from cable to The New York Times. And that shaped so much of basically just how he treated the reporters who were in front of him on a daily basis.

CO: Right. And from your own experiences, you must have a story in your back pocket that you tell about your encounters with Mr. Trump.

SEUNG MIN KIM: So, I mean, the stream of press conferences that he had at the beginning of the pandemic when the country and the world at the globe was really grappling with just what the COVID-19 pandemic was, its severity, and where the public was really relying on us reporters and relying on the government to give them clear factual information. And, you know, sitting in that briefing room in front of the president, particularly in the first weeks of the pandemic, you realise how much the president, first of all, never really took this pandemic seriously. And it was really a reflection of a time when just kind of sitting in the briefing room and listening to him talk, it really was a case study in how important truth is coming from an administration that really is times of crises like a global pandemic, where that credibility and that trust matters.

CO: And so how did you feel when that when the reporters at some point and it was really a crucial moment when journalists in Washington began to call them not just misrepresentations or to correct the facts, but just to call him a liar. How did you feel about that moment when that was actually declared by so many reporters?

SEUNG MIN KIM: It really was a turning point because the word "lie" -- us in the news media, particularly in the mainstream outlets, had really veered away from using that word for some time. I mean, lying implies that we know the president's intent, that we can get inside his head. Whether he intended to actually mislead the public was always a matter of debate and something that, you know, news organisations such as The Washington Post, The New York Times really carefully steered away from. But there is a point where just the average reader knows that the president is being told what the truth is over and over. And regardless of all the evidence in front of him, is still perpetuating, you know, all these false claims of these lies.

CO: I wonder from the point of view of being a woman what it was like to have these sessions with him, because we know that his presidency began with the "grab women by the genitals" comment -- the one that sort of he entered the presidency with. We heard him talk to women -- calling a woman that blood was coming out of her whatever. He said insulting things about the appearance of reporters. From a woman's point of view, how did you deal with that?

SEUNG MIN KIM: Certainly. In the clip that you played earlier, obviously you heard the president being pretty harsh and aggressive towards a male reporter. So obviously, this wasn't just singling out of women. I think he had a hostility for reporters who tried to keep into account all around. But certainly there were times when he took the arguments with female reporters, especially ones who really fought back to a new level. And I think for us reporters, what we have to remember is that we don't strive to ever be the story. We don't strive to be in the news. We don't want these exchanges between us and the president to necessarily go viral. But we do have to do whatever we can to make sure that you can keep a president in the United States to account. And sometimes or very often that led be pretty kind of tense and hostile exchanges. But I think how you deal with it, you know, me as a reporter and other correspondents as well, is just to remember that we're working for the public here and we're trying to get answers and facts on behalf of the public. And that's kind of our North Star, if you will, guiding us as we are in these kinds of situations.

CO: So this is your first administration you've covered as a journalist and you're now entering a very different phase -- I'm sure you're aware. What are you anticipating from the presidency of Joe Biden? Are you expecting to be, as many people are kind of hoping, to be a bit bored?

SEUNG MIN KIM: [Chuckles] And policy and kind of nerdom is back in style, which is kind of what I am. So it'll be interesting to follow it from that perspective. But obviously, Joe Biden is not going to be making earth-shattering news by tweet, he is not going to be waking up and giving us an inside look at his thoughts while he watches cable news at 7 a.m. in the morning. One key thing to that will be important, that will be different, that's important to point out, is just the access to the president himself and his willingness to answer questions from the news media, because the one thing that President Trump really did do differently was all these freewheeling opportunities to ask him questions. We don't expect President elect Joe Biden to be that freewheeling and his press conferences have already been much more focussed and disciplined. So that's going to be certainly something that's very different from the Trump presidency to the Biden presidency in terms of press access.

CO: All right. We will be looking forward to, I think, some very stable and perhaps dull years ahead.[Laughs] Maybe not -- we'll see. Seung Min it's good to talk to you. Thank you.

SEUNG MIN KIM: Thanks for having me.

CH: Seung Min Kim reports on Capitol Hill and the White House for The Washington Post. We reached her in Washington, D.C..

[Music: Hip-hop Music]

Home Is In The Body

CH: Calgary's Jaqs Gallos Aquines, is an artist, activist, and musician, and now the editor of a groundbreaking new book, it's called "Home is in the Body." And through a combination of essays, visual art, and poetry, it aims to make the experiences of queer, trans and non-binary people more visible -- particularly in the context of FilipinX communities. Jaqs Gallos Aquines spoke with CBC Winnipeg's Up to Speed about the inspiration for the collection.

JAQS GALLOS AQUINES: I've only just recently been able to intentionally build a space for the Filipino community. And I found that many queer events were mostly centred around Whiteness. And to have QT-BI-POC -- Queer, Trans, Black, Indigenous, People of Colour -- being centred at events or even for the community, it had to be intentional. So just to have that space was really important to me.

FAITH FUNDAL: Jaqs on page 14 of your book is a piece called Formations and it ends with "To be seen is a gift." That was something that was so relatable for me and it brought tears to my eyes. When I say those words "To be seen is a gift" -- what comes to mind for you when I say that?

JAQS GALLOS AQUINES: It reminds me of something that I heard Bayard Rustin say in an interview, and he was one of Martin Luther King's organisers in the civil rights movement. He said that it was an absolute necessity for me to declare homosexuality, because if I didn't, I was part of the prejudice. That was a part of the effort to destroy me, and to be seen, to hold space with our own identities, to be able to even say that I'm queer is revolutionary in that I don't have to pander to what people expect me to be.

FAITH FUNDAL: This is about creating space for folks. What do you hope people who may not identify as LGBTQ2IA+ -- what do you hope they'll get from your book?

JAQS GALLOS AQUINES: I hope that it creates an opportunity for conversation. And I gave this book to my uncle and it was the first time we'd ever had a lot of conversation about queerness, about the experience of being queer in the Filipino context. And I don't push him. You know, I'm not trying to corner anyone. It's just like that's why it's a coffee table book so it actually takes up space eye, it can hide on somebody's shelf. It's something to present an opportunity for people to become allies and to even understand what it's like to be queer. As a Filipino, I think it's hard to have those conversations because we care so much about what our family thinks and feels.

CH: Jaqs Gallos Aquines is the editor of the new book "Home is in the Body." They spoke with the CBC's Faith Fundal.

[Music]

Part 3: BC Kidney Donation

BC Kidney Donation

Guest: Tim Hiscock & Skully White

CH: Tim Hiscock started 2021 with a new lease on life because of a new kidney. In the summer of 2019, the BC man's diabetes led to advanced kidney failure. He soon learnt he was so sick that he needed a new kidney. And he got it from a familiar but unlikely source the man he buys hot dogs from. Skully White, is the owner of Lullys Food Experience, a gourmet hot dog truck at the Abbotsford Canadian Tire. Last month, he donated his kidney to Tim Hiscock. We reached them both in Abbotsford, B.C..

CO: Tim Hiscock, I want to start with you. How are you feeling?

TIM HISCOCK: I'm still mending. It's taking a little while, but I'm getting better every day.

CO: And how is the kidney doing?

TIM HISCOCK: The kidney is doing awesome. When I got out of surgery, they told me it was working great, fine. All my blood work is coming back really good. So, yeah.

CO: And that kidney came from Skully White, your friend. Skully, have you recovered from the surgery?

SKULLY WHITE: 48 hours after being chopped up, I was at home walking my dog.

CO: [Chuckles] Really?

SKULLY WHITE: Yeah.

CO: It's a pretty special thing to do for a friend, Skully, for you to give your kidney, donate it to Tim. But the two of you met in a very unusual way. And I want to ask Tim, how did you first meet Skully?

TIM HISCOCK: Well, he owns a hotdog vendor in the Canadian Tire parking lot in Abbotsford. And as a guy from Montreal where I'm from, he tempted me one day to try his food. So I did. And then ever since, I just kept going and going and going and yeah, and that's how we met. I didn't really know his name, but he jokes around a lot with his customers. He's really great with that.

CO: Did you ever think when you first met him that he'd be someone who would give you one of his kidneys?

TIM HISCOCK: No. [Chuckles] No. Not Skully. [Skully laughs too]

CO: Skully, how did you learn that Tim was in need of a kidney?

SKULLY WHITE: It started in the summer of 2019 when his wife called me and said, don't feed Tim -- and that's when I found out his name, it was in June of the year before -- because he's got some medical issues and we don't know what's going on. And they came a few times over the summer and then on December 8th they happened to be coming out of Canadian Tire. And that was the day they found out that he needed to have a transplant. And they just happened to walk up to me and I didn't have a customer. And we started chatting. They told me what was going on. I knew that the human body can live with just one. And I thought it would be an incredible journey, and it has been. So I offered it -- didn't know my blood type. And 48 hours later I called them up and said, I'm a universal donor, so if we want to go with this, let's get the ball rolling. And we did.

CO: Wait a second. So his wife called you. You didn't even know his name at that point, right?

SKULLY WHITE: No, that was in June. And then in December, they came out on December 8th and said that he needed to have a transplant.

CO: Why would you do that for someone you hardly knew?

SKULLY WHITE: It just seemed like the right thing to do. I know that you can live with just one and I had people calling me up -- and I hope Tim is not listening right now -- but they were calling up and saying that when you hear about a good family, it's them. And it made me feel good.

CO: Okay. Some would say once they had time to think about it, it was a nice gesture to say that you would consider it. But then when it struck you that you're going to be cut open, have one of your kidneys removed, and for someone you hardly knew, did you have any second thoughts about that?

SKULLY WHITE: No. And it was really weird because people kept telling me, "Are you sure you want to do this? Like, I couldn't do this, I wouldn't do it." And I was worried because I thought, okay, the whole journey through, I was scared, I never second guessed it. And I was worried that, you know, the day of the operation, I'd get, you know, cold feet. But I didn't. It was really educational and it was a really cool journey. And over the year that we had to wait, yeah, obviously a friendship has developed between us.

CO: Tim, I want to go back to the Canadian Tire Parking Lot moment with you and your wife when this man who hardly knew you said, yeah, I can spare a kidney. What did you think?

TIM HISCOCK: Well. I thought, like what everybody else would think, 'Yeah, yeah, you're just saying it, you know, just to kind of maybe make me happy.' But the very next day he went and got his bloodwork done and he called me and said he was a match for my blood. And he said that I want to continue, let's do all the screen testing we have to do and see how far we can take this and let's see if we really are a match. So I said, okay, you know, just kind of going along with it. But then he started calling the hospital. He wanted to find out what was going on and where do we do it and where do we go. So he got the information way before I did -- which was really weird because I have a whole team of transplant doctors, like on my side, and he had nobody, but he had all the answers and I had none. [Chuckles] So it was kind of weird, but yeah.

CO: And so your first thought, wow, this is unusual. But then as you actually found yourself in the hospital with him and you were going to do this, what kind of emotions did you have?

TIM HISCOCK: They were high and low. I mean, I had to go to the hospital the day before to get prepped. And I was like, oh, he's not going to show up, he's not going to show up. And at six o'clock in the morning he showed up in his hot dog outfit [laughs] and we made videos and he just made my day. He just made my day. And I didn't even think about the surgery. Just closed my eyes, went to sleep and woke up and it was all over with.

CO: I think he made more than your day, didn't he?

TIM HISCOCK: Yeah, he did. Yeah, he did.

CO: What does he mean for your life?

TIM HISCOCK: Oh, he doesn't like to admit it, but I tell him he's my best friend. [Chokes up] He's like everything to me. If he ever need anything that I could give him, it is his. He gave me back my family. He did a lot. He put my faith back into humanity. You know what we're going through with this COVID and especially going through that, I really didn't think it was going to happen. So, you know, now you got me all teared up.

CO: Skully what do you have to say?

SKULLY WHITE: It was pretty much the most amazing adventure ever. And his wife sent me a text on November 29th talking about how she had to help him go to bed and how she felt bad for other people in his situation and that if he had to go years on dialysis the way that he was going, that this is not a life for him and that she was so thankful that I had stepped up. And it was that text that she sent me that kind of changed everything. So not only did I donate the kidney, but my business, my food truck business and I have started a campaign to find kidneys for others in the local area. So we've got a list of 11 people in need of a kidney. The first one is a gentleman, he's a retired police officer of 32 years. His name is Gavin Kwon, he's 61 years old, his blood type is O-positive. And on the first day, we had eight people step forward to donate a kidney to help Gavin. And we're going to keep going. Once we get through these 11, we will add more names to the list and keep punching away until we can find it.

CO: I understand, though, there is a reward that you're offering for people to step up.

SKULLY WHITE: [Laughs] Yeah, anyone who donates a kidney, we're giving them free hot dogs for life so they'll get a shirt that says they became a live kidney donor so they could get free hot dogs at Lullys. -And we'll have their name in the system and they'll get a hot dog and a drink -- footlong hot dog and a drink once a week for the rest of their life.

CO: I just want to ask Tim, how has this changed your life?

TIM HISCOCK: Dramatically. I feel a lot different. You know, I'm grateful for everything that I have. I have my family and I get to see my two beautiful kids, my wife. [Chokes up] It's just changed my life. All I have to do right now is just to recuperate, and I'll be back on top of the world. It's all thanks to Skully.

CO: So will you be going back to get hot dogs from Skully?

TIM HISCOCK: Oh, yeah, for sure. But they're just kind of more to, like, tease him. Say, "Hey, look what I got on the right side of my body." [Laughter] He is like my best friend.

CO: And you got a piece of him in you.

TIM HISCOCK: Yeah, which he's trying to get his cravings to me. He likes grape Kool-Aid. I've had a glass. I like it. [Laughter]

CO: Skully, this one last thing for you. I hear your parents don't know about your good deed.

SKULLY WHITE: I know it's kind of a weird situation. My dad and I -- I grew up listening to your show, As It Happens. And I remember it. I'm 51 years old and I remember sitting with my dad in the living room and listening to it. So to me, if they find out this way, it is the best. They're in their mid 80s and yeah, they don't know. My mom would worry so much about going in and having the operation. And I feel absolutely amazing. My recovery has been leaps and bounds ahead of what the doctors thought. And it was so magical to be offered to do this show because it meant so much for me and my relationship with my father.

CO: So if he's listening -- you sound great, you sound strong and healthy. Anything you want to say to him?

SKULLY WHITE: I love you dad, and I hope to see you soon.

CO: Skully and Tim, you're both inspirations. And I thank you so much for speaking with us.

BOTH: Thank you.

CH: Skully White donated a kidney to Tim Hiscock. We reached them both in Abbotsford, B.C..

[Music: Calm Music]

John Tessier

CH: This weekend, a man froze to death in downtown Montreal. His body was found in a porta potty, steps away from a homeless shelter. 51 year old Raphael Andre was an Innu man -- originally from the Matimekush-Lac John community in northern Quebec. Last month, the province ordered shelters, including the Open Door shelter, to close every night at 9:30. Here is Open Door's coordinator John Tessier.

JOHN TESSIER: Anytime we lose somebody, it's heartbreaking. But what makes this more tragic and more frustrating is that it was totally avoidable. Every night, the week before his passing, he had been the last one out the door at the Open Door. You know, we had previously been open 24 hours from December 1st through March 31st for the winter measures -- we were going to be open so that people could sleep inside and have food and shelter. But after the homeless community COVID outbreak, the DSP or the Direction Santé Publique had required us to close at 9:30 p.m., which really didn't make sense to us. They never gave us a reason as to why that would be better for the public health to force people out during the curfew and send them to wander the streets and face further risk of exposure to COVID and then accept them back in the morning. Why that would make better sense than just allowing them to rest or shelter in place the way the rest of society is being forced to do with the curfew. So anyhow, we had to send him out. He was the last one out. He was asking to stay virtually every night. We could not allow that. And on Saturday when he left, he never showed up Sunday morning. And friends of his ran down to the shelter and got our security guard, asked them to come help them. And our security guard is the one who called 911 when he found them inside the portable toilet at the corner.

SHAWN LYONS: Do you think you're ready to be allowed to open overnight? Do you think that's a decision that should be made?

JOHN TESSIER: We've never stopped being ready for that. I mean, I understand we did make some adjustments when we closed in December 17th. We reopened on January 4th with physical barriers, cubicles where people can sleep two metres apart with a physical barrier between them and there is space for up to 65 people to do so comfortably and safely. People who have never been here and never met the clientele making decisions when it should be -- I mean, I can understand about the public health, but come and see the space. No one's been in here to see the way it's set up. So, yes, I think people should not be forced out to break a curfew when they can shelter in place the way the rest of society is being required to do.

CH: That was John Tessir, coordinator at the Open Door Homeless Shelter in downtown Montreal, speaking with the CBC's Shawn Lyons/ this afternoon, Montreal Mayor Valerie Plante asked Quebec's premier to exempt people experiencing homelessness from the curfew. But Francois Legault said that an exemption wouldn't be practical because anybody could say they're homeless to avoid being ticketed.

[Music: Piano Music]

Vacation & Risking Lives

CH: Francois Legault says that to stop the second wave of the pandemic, Canada should end all but the most necessary of inbound flights. As the co-founder of Air Transit, the Quebec premier has a sense of what that would cost. But this afternoon, Premier Legault urged the prime minister to go beyond simply appealing to those Canadians who find themselves struggling to find the balance between their package of vacation and risking lives. Here's Premier Legault.

FRANCOIS LEGAULT: My request today is to stop those flights that are non-essential coming from outside of Canada. So that's the first request. In the meantime, we're asking for a better follow-up for the quarantine. It can be done at home, it can be done in a motel room. But what is important is that it be respected. So you need to have some people that would even go and see if the person is really at home or at his or her hotel room.

REPORTER: You're talking about nonessential trips. But Mr. Trudeau said during his press conference earlier this afternoon that he is not ready to ban nonessential trips because it's part of the Constitution, it's part of the rights of Canadians. So even though you want to discuss the definition of nonessential trips, there is this question that you have to solve first with him.

FRANCOIS LEGAULT: Firs, how come we were able to do it last spring? Second, I think that the situation is so critical that we have to have an exception. Also, we may choose the different countries. I think that Justin is worrying a bit about the United States, but what about all the other countries? So I think that, for example an all-included package to put Punta Cana -- do we really need to have those trips right now? I think not. I think does this situation justify that we don't accept those kind of trips. So I think it's about time to take actions. We have to remember that Mr. Trudeau took too much time last March, almost a year ago after the school break to close the frontiers. And we had very bad impact here in Quebec. So I would like that we don't repeat the same error.

CH: That was Quebec Premier Francois Legault speaking today in Quebec City.

[Music]

Virgin Orbit

Guest: Nathalie Ouellette

CH: Space used to be considered the final frontier. But now as frontiers go, it's a lot more accessible. There are several players already lining up to take your space tourism dollars, including Elon Musk's SpaceX, Jeff Bezos' Blue Origin, and Richard Branson's Virgin Galactic. This weekend, Virgin Orbit, a sister company of Virgin Galactic, successfully launched one of its LauncherOne rockets into orbit. And given that a handful of tourists have also gone to the International Space Station aboard a Russian Soyuz spacecraft, the industry may be about to achieve lift-off. Nathalie Ouellette is a Canadian astrophysicist at the University of Montreal.

CO: Nathalie, how much closer to booking a commercial ticket to space are we today?

NATHALIE OUELLETTE: It gets closer every day, but it still remains only in the realm of the super rich for the time being.

CO: So what does this launch on the weekend -- what does it represent as far as development?

NO: So it's very innovative. We know that lots of companies, private companies are part of the space exploration game now, but their launch is a very typical looking. It's a rocket on a platform and it goes sort of straight up. But Virgin Orbit instead uses a plane, a normal plane, a Boeing 747. And while it's in the air, it launches a missile or a rocket. So one thing that's really nice is that all of these different players in space travel and exploration are bringing lots of innovation. And that was one really good example this weekend.

CO: I can figure out some of it. What is the advantage of not launching from a launch pad, but strapping it to the wing of a 747 and taking it up?

NO: It's cheaper, for one. And also it's less sensitive to weather conditions. So often a lot of people I know will tune into a SpaceX launch or even a NASA launch only for them to be disappointed because at the last minute there are high winds or a chance of thunderstorms. It's a little bit less risky when you have a plane. And so the plane aspect is cheaper and better for weather.

CO: And so it goes up to about 35,000 feet. And then the rocket launches from the wing?

NO: Yeah, that's right. It launches from under the wing. So it's a modified Boeing 747 and then it detaches from the wing and then the missile is able to propel itself into higher up in the atmosphere until it reaches space.

CO: Well, why didn't someone think of this before? It makes perfect sense to me.

NO: [Chuckles] I mean, we have used planes before. In astronomy, I can give you one example, there's a telescope called SOFIA and it actually doesn't orbit the Earth and space, it actually takes rides on a big airplane. It goes high up in the atmosphere so that it can get lots of interesting data from space. But it comes back to Earth, which is really nice for us to service its. So there have been sort of hints of using airplanes and space and astronomy science, but it just takes time because these technologies take time to develop.

CO: So what was being launched on Sunday by Virgin Orbit was a small satellite. Is that a future business for someone like Richard Branson?

NO: It's not only a future business, I say it's a present business right now. And the client for this particular launch was NASA. So NASA has had to rely on its own capabilities to launch things into space for a really long time. But now they're able to contract that service out to launch their satellites. And you have private companies who are interested in getting their satellites up but don't necessarily have the means, the technology to do it. So it's going to keep growing in the future, but it's an industry that's already very present now.

CO: And so this LauncherOne, as it's called, it can launch a satellite from the size of a refrigerator to the size of a toaster oven. So lots of range of possibilities. Does that mean that space is going to get pretty cluttered?

NO: Space is already relatively cluttered. If you've seen the movie Gravity with Sandra Bullock, it sort of gives you a preview of what might happen if it gets too cluttered. But it is a concern -- and now, for the most part, when someone launches something big, they have to have a plan on what to do with it once the satellite is no longer operational. So if you launch something up, if you have a plan to deorbit it, send it back down through the atmosphere so it can burn up. That is an important part of the entire plan to make sure that we don't end up with a catastrophe above our heads.

CO: Okay, I'm sure that the plan for getting people back from space is a little bit less dramatic than burning up. So this is what Richard Branson says that he wants, that this would be the world's first commercial space line. And so the idea that people will be heading into space on this -- but I guess will they be strapped to the wing of a 747?

NO: No, not quite. It all started with Virgin Galactic, which was initially this company, this idea of really space tourism. And then they sort of had this branch of the company really focus on sending a payload. And that started the new company, Virgin Orbit. But Virgin Galactic is really for tourists who want to go up into space. So it should be a little bit more cushy than just being strapped to a wing.

CO: But it's going to be very expensive, very exclusively for rich people, I would imagine, for some time.

NO: Yeah, for a long time still. I think it's very expensive to send things up into space. Because of the advent of all of these private companies, that price has reduced quite a bit. But for the longest time, every kilogram you sent up into space costs tens of thousands of dollars. Now it's like a few thousands of dollars. But if you think of how much that can rack up when you have like a person's waste, it gets very expensive very, very quickly. And just like with normal airline flights, they will become more and more accessible over the years. But it's still going to take quite some time.

CO: And so this Virgin Galactic flight is going to be something that many people will do or become more accessible?

NO: It will become more accessible. And whether people will want to do it or not, it depends on who you talk to. Some people would love the chance to go up into space. Some people I don't think you could pay them enough.

CO: And which side are you on? The one who would like to get on real fast or the one who wouldn't go near it?

NO: I would go on very, very fast. I would love the chance to see our beautiful blue earth from space.

CO: Lovely. Nathalie it is good to talk to you. Thank you.

NO: Thanks for having me.

CH: Nathalie Ouellette is a Canadian astrophysicist. We reached her in Montreal.

[Music: Drum & Bass Music]

Dennis O’Keefe

CH: Around St. John's, the far-right newspaper, The Epoch Times, has started to appear in mailboxes. Former St. John's Mayor Dennis "Doc" O'Keefe found a copy in his, and he is perhaps the only recipient there who's also mentioned in the paper. Mr. O'Keefe is identified in a report that claims to include names from a leaked Chinese government document. The paper claims China sees Doc O'Keefe as, "Talent to be cultivated in order to further the interests of the Chinese Communist Party and government." He told CBC, St. Johns that in a weird way, it's kind of flattering.

DENNIS O'KEEFE: It appeared in my mailbox a few days ago. And out of curiosity, before I throw it in the garbage, I decided I'd leaf through it and I did. And I saw a picture of my good friend, the mayor of Calgary, Naheed Nenshi. And I said, gee, it had to do with Chinese influence. And I said, wow, I never knew him to be involved with anything like that. And then I read down a little bit and there is a reference to Atlantic Canada and officials in Atlantic Canada. I read down a bit more. And lo and behold, there I am. [Chuckles] I couldn't believe it. I mean, I've had a lot of surprises in my life, believe me. But this one really takes the cake. This is beyond.

ADAM WALSH: The article talks about, you know, they want to cultivate talent for influence. And so you're apparently on some list somewhere that was leaked to the Epoch Times.

DENNIS O'KEEFE: You know, in a perverse sort of way, it makes me feel good that the Chinese government thinks that I have a talent that they can cultivate whatever that means -- could mean even brainwash, I don't know -- that they can cultivate and somehow, I assume, use in a seditious way. And I mean, it's just inexplicable, aside from being extremely surprising and aside from being terribly, terribly, terribly misleading. Nobody from The Epoch Times contacted me and said, 'Hey, have you been in touch with your friends in China?' [Chuckles] Right, no.

CH: That was Dennis "Doc" O'Keefe, a former mayor of St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador, speaking with CBC reporter Adam Walsh.

January 19, 2021 Episode Transcript

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