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The AIH Transcript for February 23, 2021

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

CO: Confirmation of bias, Elijah McLain's father says a scathing new report confirms that police must be held accountable for the death of a young black man who never should have been stopped in the first place.

CH: Raised voices. After another critic of the Rwandan government is cut down. One of the opposition leader's friends tells us he has no doubt about who's behind the killing.

CO: Forward motion. A Liberal MPs says he voted yes on the conservative motion to call China's treatment of wiggers and genocide in order to encourage his prime minister to push Beijing to do the right thing.

CH: Hum sweet hum. The first ever sound set back from Mars is kind of a windy buzz, but it's music to our guests ears because the L.A. rock musician helped design the microphone that captured it.

CO: A revolutionary development. If trying to solve a Rubik's cube leaves you twisting in the wind and you're rich, you need the GoCube, a smart version of the puzzle that helpfully tells you exactly how to solve it.

CH: And Munch-y business. Someone scrawled a grumpy critique on one version of Edvard Munch's The Scream. And it turns out it was the artist himself who was feeling down on the mouth. As It Happens, the Tuesday edition, radio that's in it for the long howl.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Elijah McClain Report

Elijah McClain Report

Guest: Lawayne Mosley

CH: On a summer night in 2019, Elijah McClain was walking home in Aurora, Colorado, but the 23 year old black man ended up in the hospital and died a few days later. Police had stopped Mr. McClain after receiving a call about a man in a ski mask who, quote, looked sketchy and their use of a carotid hold that night, along with the decision to administer ketamine to Mr. McClean, has drawn heavy criticism, which intensified during last summer's protests against antiblack racism. Now an independent report is adding to the criticism of the Aurora police and fire departments. Police Chief Vanessa Wilson responded to that report today.

VANESSA WILSON: The bottom line is Elijah McClain should still be here today. Nothing I can say here today or changes that I've made or changes I will continue to make. Can bring him back. And for that, I'm extremely sorry. I want to assure the McClain family and the community that we will continue to make changes to address the issues that were not only highlighted in this report, but also are going to be highlighted in any other investigations that are ongoing to include a criminal investigation by the AG's office. We will address failures that are uncovered, and I will hold myself as well as our officers accountable. We will evolve and we will become the police department that the community can trust.

CH: Lawayne Mosley is Elijah McClain's father. We reached him in Denver, Colorado.

CO: Mr. Mosley, you just heard the Aurora police chief say today that your son should still be alive. What do you want to say to her?

LAWAYNE MOSLEY: Yes, he should be alive. He really should be. We agree on that.

CO: This story may not be as well known in Canada as it is in the States, so maybe you can just tell us, I know these are some painful details, so please say whatever is comfortable for you. But what happened to your son?

LM: Well, he's walking home and he was accosted by police officers for looking suspicious or wearing a ski mask. And it escalated. And my son ended up dying from the police contact and they tried to cover it up and they tried to do all kinds of not the right thing. So. We hold them accountable for it. We're still here and we're not going to let them get away with it.

CO: Do you mind if I give a few of the details of what happened?

LM: Go ahead.

CO: He was within 10 seconds, according to the report, 10 seconds of getting out of their patrol car. They had their hands on, your son, on Elijah. He was held in a chokehold that rendered him unconscious or partially unconscious.

LM: Twice.

CO: Twice. And they threatened him with a dog. They dragged him onto the grass. How was he reacting? According to what we've been reading in the report, how was your son reacting to the police?

LM: He was surprised. He did everything right. He did nothing wrong. He communicated very well with them and it just escalated and they have a bad track record as people of colour, as I said, they took James Holmes and shot all them people, they took him without a scratch. My son didn't have any weapons or anything and he's dead, so that'll tell you right there the difference between policing for people of colour and policing for white people.

CO: There's no indication, according to the report, that he was about to or had or had any intention of committing any crime. In the course of it, you can hear him on the police body video saying, ow, that hurts. You guys are too strong. He asks for them to forgive him. He just says, I just can't breathe correctly because... we can't hear the rest of what he has to say. Every indication is that he was doing what he could to cooperate with them. Is that the case, is your understanding?

LM: Yes, he did. He did everything he could and they still chose to be the aggressors, and as I said, they do a little bit of policing for the people of colour, then they do for the white folks. It needs to change because we're all human. We're not colours. We are humans, so once we get off this white, black and brown and we are all human and. They just. I don't know, they don't have no compassion over there, and we're going to give them some compassion. We're going to get it.

CO: What happened after the E.M.S. people arrived at the scene?

LM: They injected him with ketamine, saying he was [inaudible] delirium, which he wasn't, and it just went downhill from there.

CO: They injected him with a dosage that was for a much larger man. Can you describe your son's build?

LM: He was 140 pounds, slim jim and they gave him a shot for a 200 pound man. So you're not a doctor. They shouldn't be doing it. I don't know where it came from. But if you're in a hospital setting, that's when you administer hospital drugs, not on the side of a road.

CO: And then he went into cardiac arrest in the ambulance and your son passed away.

LM: He went into cardiac arrest when they was putting him on that stretcher. He was already going into cardiac arrest.

CO: And he died three days later in the hospital. Is that right?

LM: Yes. Yes. They took him off life support. He didn't have any brain activity.

CO: He was 23 years old, a massage therapist. What was he like? Can you tell us a bit about your son?

LM: He was bright. Was actually a bundle of joy. He was. He was a very special guy. Like I said, made everybody smile, made everybody feel good. Didn't like violence. Would give you the shirt off his back. Just a true, true, sweet, sweet young man. Ah, man, yes, he was very, very special and he's missed very much every day, every second, every... But we're still here and we're going to get justice and we're going to work, we're working.

CO: I'm so sorry about your son.

LM: Thank you very much. I'm glad you guys are covering it, because more needs to hear it, more needs to know it. So we can get this taken care of.

CO: What lessons do you think the police department should take from this extraordinary report about the death of your son?

LM: I think they need to do a better job at policing themselves and hiring background checks and checking these guys' Facebook pages, if you're a racist when you work as a police officer. Now you're a police officer and you're not a racist. But if you're a racist, you're going to be a racist when you're a police officer. And like I said, they can't hide it. They can't hide it. We want to make sure we get all of you racist police officers away from the good cops. I'm a veteran, so we had to do basic training, AIT training. We do everything. We train. So they need to do training. More training, quality training.

CO: At time the district attorney decided not to bring any charges against the officers involved in the death of your son because he said there wasn't enough evidence to prove that the force they used was unjustified in light of this report, which shows that the force they used was not justified. What should happen now?

LM: He should be fired, everybody should be fired, everybody who tried to cover up fired. Everybody should get criminally prosecuted. They did wrong from the top to the bottom, so they all need to be held accountable, not just the three officers that had put their hands on him and all the police officers, all the paramedics, all everybody who put their hands on my son or had something to do with it or didn't do something that they should have did. Fired. That's what I want, but I know that's kind of a long stretch, but you asked me and I tell you, yes, fired, everybody fired shouldn't be in that field anymore.

CO: And what do you think will happen?

LM: I'm not sure. I'm going to stay hopeful because the more we talk about it, the more we see it and the more we know that they can't get away with it. I mean, like I said before, it was just us saying that they're crooked. Now they hired somebody and they said they're crooked. So it's just a matter of time before we get to the weeds and weed them out.

CO: Mr. Mosley, I know this is hard for you to talk about, but I do appreciate that you would speak with us today. Thank you.

LM: Thank you very much. Thank you for covering my son. He would be tickled.

CO: Thank you. Bye bye.

LM: Bye bye.

CH: Lawayne Mosley is Elijah McClain's father. He's in Denver, Colorado.

[Music: Guitar instrumental]

Uighur Genocide Motion

Guest: Sameer Zuberi

CH: Sameer Zuberi is stepping out in front of his prime minister, Mr. Zuberi is a Montreal area Liberal MP. Yesterday, he voted in favour of a conservative motion declaring China's treatment of its Muslim minorities a genocide. The majority of the liberal caucus did the same, but Prime Minister Trudeau himself didn't vote. He sent one of his ministers who abstained on behalf of the entire cabinet. He says the word genocide has legal consequences and has asked the U.N. to investigate evidence of forced labour and mass sterilisation. We reached Sameer Zuberi in Montreal.

CO: Mr. Zuberi, as you know, Erin O'Toole, leader of the opposition, he said that Justin Trudeau's failure to show up for yesterday's vote was a terrible sign of leadership. What would you call it?

SAMEER ZUBERI: I would call it a sign that we as a government are going to continue to engage with China while respecting the parliament's decision to recognise that what happened or what is happening right now in China is a genocide.

CO: But why do you think that your own party leader and the prime minister abstained along with the cabinet?

SZ: Well, I think we need to recognize that the abstention doesn't mean that there was a vote against the motion. It just simply means that the government wanted to let parliament decide what is actually happening, to choose on this. So we know that the government is listening to parliament and will be moving ahead into the future with this recognition in mind.

CO: But now that doesn't seem to be what Mr. Trudeau is saying. He says that the term genocide has legal consequences and needs to be further studied. So it doesn't look like it's simply saying, let's let the House of Commons decide. Let's let Parliament decide this. It looks like he is saying, no, we can't go ahead with this motion. We're not going to support it.

SZ: Well, I wouldn't say it's not that the government is saying it wont support it, but it is saying that genocide does have a very high bar. It's recognised in international law as such. However, there was a vote yesterday in the House of Commons and that vote did pass with overwhelming liberal support. The majority of liberal members actually did vote in favour of this recognition.

CO: So Justin Trudeau isn't sure the evidence has met that bar but you feel that it has.

SZ: Certainly. I have heard the testimony of survivors, people who were in those camps, people who have suffered unspeakable crimes against humanity. I heard from experts who have done a deep dive into the open source information. We heard from jurist's. We heard from former Canadian diplomats to China. And they all say that genocide is, in fact, occurring. We also know that the American government has recognised, the administration, I should say, has recognised that genocide is in fact, occurring. We as a government, the government of Canada, under the prime minister's leadership, has said that importation and exportation to and from the region in question, where the weaker people live in China must be very closely scrutinised and that there is forced labour happening and that we cannot allow those sorts of products to be imported into Canada and we cannot allow exportations to that region if there is forced labour occurring in certain factories within China. So we have already taken some action as a government. And yesterday the House of Commons made this very important recognition.

CO: But Justin Trudeau has access to that same considerable amount of evidence you just cited. So why do you think he is being so cautious?

SZ: Well, we will have to make sure that as a country we are moving with our international partners. Already, America has, the administration has made the determination, but we as a country need to continue to move ahead with the global community. China is a very important power globally. That doesn't mean that we don't speak up. That doesn't mean that we don't speak out when there are crimes against humanity and genocide. But it does mean that we need to move ahead as an international community on this particular question.

CO: Don't think that the reason why he might be cautious is because out of concern for 'the Micheals', as we call them, Michael Kovrig, Michael Spavor, who are in detention.

SZ: Certainly we need to get our Micheals released and that does make us, you know, be extra careful. That doesn't mean that we don't stop. We know that the majority of members in the Liberal Party did recognise that genocide is, in fact, occurring. And these are government members. But without question, we are not forgetting about the two Michaels and Huseyin Celil who are detained in China. We are not accepting hostage diplomacy, nor are we accepting a process that is not fair and equitable as what happened with Mr. Celil. who is himself, a Canadian.

CO: Yes, and I'm glad you added Mr. Celil's name there, but the thing is, is that the reason why the cabinet and the prime minister are being cautious is because they would like to get those Canadians free. Isn't your act of being more aggressive? This vote is that not something that might hurt the chances of getting those people released?

SZ: I wouldn't say it hurts the chance. I would say that these two things are happening in parallel, that our government is fully seized by the issue of having the two Michaels released. But our House of Commons at the same time is seized by what's happening within China, this unfolding genocide against the weaker people. So the two are moving together ahead. One doesn't cancel the other.

CO: OK, just I'm just curious as to why this vote is very important, but where does it lead? I mean, you're describing all the things that should happen. Where is the action that's going to follow the vote that you had in the House of Commons yesterday?

SZ: Well, the action already has started. Even before this vote, there was a report of a subcommittee on international human rights. And that subcommittee enumerated a number of actions that the government should take. One of those actions was that supply chains should be given a very close look. And a little over a month ago, the government introduced new measures around importation and exportation of forced labour products, in particular products that emanate from Xinjiang [inaudible] Region. So that is one step that has already been taken. Yesterday, the recognition was made. I expect that there will be further steps. I hope and expect further steps to be taken. The government has acknowledged that while this is not legally binding the motion, it is morally binding. It's morally binding upon the government to view its interactions through the lens of this motion that was passed yesterday.

CO: All right. We'll be watching to see what developments there are. Mr. Zuberi, thank you.

SZ: Thank you, Carol.

CH: Sameer Zuberi is a Montreal area Liberal MP and we reached him in Montreal.

[Music: percussion instrumental]

Aussie Facebook Update

CH: Last week, Facebook tried to unfriend an entire country, as we told you on Friday, the social media giant stopped all Australians from viewing and sharing news on Facebook. The move came in the face of a proposed law that would require Facebook to pay for journalism posted on its platform, but today, an update. The Aussies have won. Facebook has lifted the ban and agreed to work with lawmakers on a deal to pay for news, although critics say it remains unclear exactly how the law would work. And there are worries that it will largely benefit big media players such as the Murdoch's.

[Music: same Percussion instrumental]

Mars Rover Mic Developer

Guest: Jason Achillies Mezilis

CH: With all due respect, the prototype drawing looks like the kind of half baked scheme you might find sketched out on a napkin at a greasy spoon. And Jason Achillies Mezilis admits it was a long shot that his microphone designed for space travel, would ever fly. But on Thursday, the rock and roll musician turned NASA consultant proved anything is possible.

[Sound clip: buzzing noises]

CH: Those were the first ever recordings from the surface of Mars on Thursday, NASA's Perseverance rover successfully landed on the Red Planet and beamed those recordings back to Earth. Sure it sounds kind of like a Martian just left the refrigerator door open. But that recording is sweet music to Mr. Mezilis' ears and provides the best possible coda to the unlikely story of how his microphone ended up on board the mission. We reached Jason Achillies Mezilis in Los Angeles.

CO: Jason, how does it feel to hear those sounds coming from the microphone that you got installed on the Perseverance?

JASON ACHILLIES MEZILIS: It's a relief. That's what it feels like. Yeah, thank God it worked. I know. I know. It means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. But for myself and for the folks that I worked for and with, it's just immense relief. It's wonderful.

CO: OK, back here on Earth, you are a rock and roll musician and you ended up working with this NASA mission to Mars. How did that come about? Did they call you or did you call them or what?

JASON ACHILLIES MEZILIS: Yeah, I mean, I guess the simplest way to put it is I sort of cold called them. It was actually an email. But after I found out that this mission was going forward to send a microphone up there, a couple of microphones, actually, I approached both teams and, you know, put together a kind of a proposal of considerations and ways I thought I could help sort of coming from the audio engineering perspective as opposed to the rocket science engineering. And one of those teams, which was EDL, responded right away. They actually, as it turned out, they were looking for somebody to kind of fill that role. So it was just perfect timing.

CO: Right. And that's the Jet Propulsion Laboratory that thought, well, maybe you're the guy to go with. And so did you have ideas? Where were you able to say, yeah, I have an idea how you can record sound on Mars?

JASON ACHILLIES MEZILIS: Well, they already had the idea to do it. So basically I approached them with a lot of technical considerations. Initially, I got hired to do a custom design and then that actually had to get nixed for funding reasons. So what we ended up doing was helping JPL select an off the shelf component, which ended up being this company called DPA. And it's a microphone that they built that normally goes in recording studios. It's a nice high end studio microphone. And we measured aspects of durability and chemical compositions like the diaphragm, all these considerations that have to go into it. And we felt that this would probably be our best shot at surviving the brutality of launch, landing, Martian surface operations and obviously, you know, travelling through deep space for six months.

CO: [chuckles] So you're telling me that the microphone is just off the shelf? It's kind of the same as a microphone I'm speaking through to speak with you right now.

JASON ACHILLIES MEZILIS: Yeah, it's a studio microphone. It's a mic anybody can buy. I'm not sure how much it goes for, but it's very durable, but it's also very high quality. And it's been tested to a certain degree of thermal cycling, which is important. The Martian surface gets really, really cold at night. And so every day you've got this crazy temperature swing and yeah, basically there's some minor modifications, but nothing, for the most part, it's something you can buy.

CO: Right. But how do you? I mean, we know that, well this microphone in my studio we treated very, very gently and kindly, but a lot of microphones get tossed around, end up in a mosh pit, everything else. And so but they've never been on Mars before. So what do you have to do? What modifications in order to make it so it can resist those temperature swings?

JASON ACHILLIES MEZILIS: Well, there's a lot of perhaps more ideal modifications you would do, but we didn't really do any of those because this was considered a demonstration. I'm trying to remember the exact term for it. But basically, it's a system where NASA decides that if it works great, if it doesn't, that's fine, too, as long as it doesn't adversely affect any of the other systems on board.

CO: The first sounds we heard, that sounds a bit like maybe somebody's fridge, [laughter] but also wind, gusts of wind mixed in there. What do you hope that they get to record through your microphone?

JASON ACHILLIES MEZILIS: So, you know, it's interesting, right, listening to the sounds of Mars, it's kind of like listening to the sounds of yourself walking through the desert. On Mars most of what we hear will be noise that we make with the rover from the drill or maybe the wheels on the surface. If we can capture that, there is a bit of the wind sounds. There might be some unexpected atmospheric things, but most of what we hear is going to be sounds we generate. And I think that's going to be the most thrilling aspect of this is, you know, hearing that drill boring into the rocks and things like that.

CO: It's interesting that for so long, the idea of these kinds of explorations is to see what's out there. Why do you think it's taken so long for them to find a way that we can hear what's out there?

JASON ACHILLIES MEZILIS: Well, they've been trying to do this for a couple of decades now. The first microphone flew in the late 90s on a mission called Mars Polar Lander. And the Polar Lander experienced what they call an RUD, rapid unscheduled disassembly. I think is how they put it. It crashed on the surface and then another one flew about 10 years later on a lander called Phoenix, which was not activated due to some technical concerns. Curiosity just didn't have one. And so finally, finally, the argument was made to bring it back around. And I think it had a lot to do with the fact that they were planning to capture video. Somebody realised the importance of that audio can play into that and that's how that ended up on this.

CO: Do you think that your Martian gig will influence your earthly gig of being a musician?

JASON ACHILLIES MEZILIS: [chuckles] Well, you know, it's funny. I did. So I've started working with a company called Rocket Lab in New Zealand, and they're gonna be sending a probe to Venus in a couple of years. And we're going to try and capture audio on that mission now. And I was driving one day and I tried to imagine the soundtrack I would want to hear while watching a rocket launch from those guys. And so I came up with this song called Ready to Launch and put that out a few months ago. It's my idea of a rocket soundtrack, I guess you could say.

CO: Music from the spheres.

JASON ACHILLIES MEZILIS: Yes, music from one sphere headed to another. Yeah.

CO: Jason, it's good to talk to you. Thanks.

JASON ACHILLIES MEZILIS: Oh, it's my pleasure. Thanks for having me.

CH: We reached Jason Achillies Mezilis in Los Angeles.

[Music: Pop music instrumental]

Part 2: Rwandan Critic Killed

Rwandan Critic Killed

Guest: Kennedy Gihana

CH: On Saturday, he mourned his friends who had been killed over the years, Rwandan opposition critics believed to have been assassinated. The next day, Seif Bamporiki himself was shot dead, attacked when he was making a delivery from his Cape Town furniture store. His colleagues in South Africa say his killing was no random act. They believe he was targeted by the Rwandan government. Kennedy Gihana was a friend of Mr. Bamporiki. We reached him in Pretoria, South Africa.

CO: Kennedy, first of all, I'm sorry for your loss.

KENNEDY GIHANA: No. Thank you very much. It's a very difficult two days for [inaudible] Rwandans, but also the Rwandans in general, including those within the country.

CO: I know you were just, earlier today at Mr. Bamporiki's wake. What were people saying about his death?

KG: Everybody was shocked because nobody can believe that a person who was with us on a Saturday the whole day, then on Sunday at around 11:00, he flew back to Cape Town, you know what he did? He went home to pick up his car and then he went directly to his business, you know, because the guy who wanted him to sell him things he was demanding that he should be there, you know. So people, they are shocked because it's really very sudden. The person's have been together. And then someone tells you that he is gone.

CO: He had been, it seems, lured to the place where he was killed by this idea that he was to deliver some furniture from his business to this address. But he must have been very conscious of any traps because he knows that there have been these attacks on any dissent in the diaspora.Why do you think that he trusted that delivery?

KG: You see it, all [inaudible] in the diaspora, especially those who are now advocating for human rights and democracy, every second they look at their shoulders, but because that place he has been doing his business, he has been doing business at that side for quite some time. So he didn't believe that someone would want to harm him at the shop. But because of always being cautious, that's why he asked his friend to accompany him. So every day he has been cautious, but when is your day? You never know.

CO: So that while he was waiting to be paid, instead of being paid, the gunmen came out and shot him dead, but not the other man who was with him.

KG: Yeah, no, for sure, but this has been the method of operation of a random military gym, if you know how they killed Patrick, they asked the friend to befriend him for almost two years before he set him up for killing.

CO: You just mentioned Patrick Karegeya, and that's whose grave you last saw your friend at. Seif was with you, where he gave apparently a very touching speech about the death of Patrick Karegeya, who was strangled to death, right?

KG: Yeah, it is actually trading now to all social media. The speech he gave, it was a great speech advocating the [inaudible] fighting for the freedom, for democracy, for the. It was a very touching speech. Yeah. The memorial was on Saturday for not only Patrick, but also other members of the opposition who has been killed by the military regime in Rwanda, not only outside the country, but also inside Rwanda, including those who are in prison, those who are now in different safe houses, those who have disappeared.

CO: Can you tell us a bit about what Seif Bamporiki was like? What kind of man was he?

KG: A brother and man, a husband and a father, a guy whom we could rely on is a person who was loved by everybody, not only the people who know him, but also the people who would meet him tomorrow, he could become a friend to them.

CO: What chances are there that those who killed him will be brought to justice?

KG: We believe in the law enforcement here in this country, as they did with the case of Patrick, even though it took long. So we believe that also they will investigate that to come to the bottom of this case, even though we know the government of Rwanda is putting a lot of diplomatic pressure on most of those cases to the governments where they have committed a crime to suppress those investigations. But we believe that sooner or later we will know what happened.

CO: Well, just remind people that you're speaking of South Africa, which is where you are now and where others have been killed. Just we recently did an interview with the Canadian Rwandan who is describing the kinds of harassment that Rwandans who oppose the government are facing here. It happens in many other countries. And as you point out, people are killed in other countries too. What do you think countries like Canada should do?

KG: How can a country like Canada, which is the cornerstone of human rights and democracy, can participate in the Commonwealth, which is going to take place in Rwanda, a country which has been raided by the military generals from 1994 up to date? And you're telling me that the Canada way to support Rwanda, that military regime? financially. It is a very sad to see a country that Canada, which has got to [inaudible], cannot stand against the values they believe in, because the values of human rights and democracy in Canada, which are the Canada, Canadians, are enjoying the same rights which the Rwandans are fighting for. So just close your eyes and live with a brutal general military in Rwanda to kill people and there is not even a statement from Canada or to go to the United Nations, even the human right, UN human rights to denounce that. No, we are not going to turn into this. It is sad.

CO: Do you think countries like Canada should refuse to take part in this Commonwealth summit this year that is to be held in Rwanda?

KG: Absolutely. Absolutely. Let me tell you something. Should the country, like Canada and those one who are participating in that commonwealth participate and continue participating, including Rwanda, the Rwandans will never forgive them. I can tell you they would never forgive them.

CO: Kennedy, I appreciate you telling us the story. Thank you.

KG: Thank you very much.

CO: Good night.

KG: Good night. Thanks.

CH: Kennedy Gihana is an opposition party official in South Africa. He was in Pretoria. We requested a response from the Rwandan embassy in Ottawa, but we did not get a reply before we went to air.

[Music: Electronic music]

The Scream

Guest: Mai Britt Guleng

CH: Mai Britt Guleng thinks she knows who took a pencil to the Mona Lisa of modern art. Ms. Guleng Is a curator at Norway's National Museum of Art, Architecture and Design. The museum owns one of the four known versions of Edvard Munch's masterpiece, The Scream. All four depict a distressed Open-mouthed figure caught in the middle of a major freakout. But the version at Norway's National Museum features something else. Some not very nice words scrawled in pencil right onto the canvas. We reached Mai Britt Guleng in Oslo.

CO: Mai Britt, what are the words that have been written on to the painting?

MAI BRITT GULENG: "It can only have been painted by a mad man!".

CO: "Could only have been painted by a madman!" That's what's written?

MAI BRITT GULENG: Yes.

CO: Is it fairly easy to see that?

MAI BRITT GULENG: It's quite hard to see. So, actually the letters are tiny. The contrast between the pencil and the red paint is not big. So it's hard to read with a bare eye.

CO: When was it first noticed that it was there?

MAI BRITT GULENG: We don't know when it was first noticed, but we know the first time it has been mentioned. And that was in 1904 when a Danish critic mentioned it in a critique for one of the exhibitions, [inaudible] in Copenhagen. But he attributed the inscription to a tactless visitor who had done this act of vandalism to the painting.

CO: And so that was the theory since the beginning of the last century that it was vandalism. What have you learnt since?

MAI BRITT GULENG: Since then a lot of researchers have assumed it was drawn by Munch himself. But in 2008, the catalogue Resnais was printed. In this catalogue Resnais, there was a reference back to the Danish critic in 1904, and it was concluded that this was not by Munch himself, but by a visitor to one of the exhibitions. And since that, every Munch researcher has taken it for granted that this was not indeed by Munch.

CO: And so what? What have you now concluded? Who actually do you believe wrote that inscription?

MAI BRITT GULENG: I am absolutely positive that Munch verses himself because, as I mentioned, it's quite hard to read the inscription. You know, many have to know it's there in order to see it and then you can barely read it. But we used Infra-Red photographs that made it much easier to read the inscription and to compare the handwriting with Munch's letters and notes. And I started to be suspicious that this was indeed by Munch himself because of the handwriting. And then I also consulted my former colleagues at the Munch museum, and they are experts on Munch's handwriting. And they went systematically through the whole inscription. And this could be done because of the Infra-Red photo, that made it easier. So they compared carefully letter by letter, word by word to Munch's writings. And they agree with me that this is indeed Munch himself.

CO: This painting of the scream. And of course, there's more than one version of it, but this is one of the most famous paintings in the world. Why would Munch have written that on his own work of art?

MAI BRITT GULENG: He didn't know it was to become the most famous work of art in the world. He would have been surprised, I think. But Munch wrote this, I think, because it was a reaction, it was an ironic comment on insinuations that he was mentally ill. Munch embraced the idea that he was a genius artist capable of seeing hidden meanings, depths of knowledge of what it meant to be a human being, and that this was some kind of madness connected with this capability. But he didn't comply with the assumption that he was mentally ill in the medical sense; he had a younger sister who was mentally ill and Munch was worried that there was hereditary diseases in his family.

CO: Had somebody accused him of this, is that why he would have written these words?

MAI BRITT GULENG: Yes. In connection with an exhibition in Oslo in 1895, Munch introduced this painting, The Scream, for the first time to the public in Oslo. And there was an uproar and people were provoked. It was showing that he was hallucinated, not having a normal brain, et cetera. And then one of his friends arranged a discussion evening in the Students Association. And that evening, one of the medical students, he later became a very famous psychiatrist. He got up and he said that. Munch's, it was abnormal and also the artist was abnormal and he was degenerated and this was a medical student, it was not the poet or anything. So for that reason, the accusation that he was mentally ill was given a different tone. It was given a different meaning from being the mad genius.

CO: You have spent a great deal of time with the work of Edvard Munch, also with this painting, The Scream, studying it. So now that you have determined that he himself wrote "could only have been painted by a madman". Does it change the way you see the work?

MAI BRITT GULENG: Yes, it does. It shows the complex person Edvard Munch. It shows the man who didn't bother by the rules he wrote in his own paintings. Who else would do such a thing to write on a painting? But it also shows the vulnerable man. So it shows the man who was hurt and it shows his feelings. So in a way, I feel that I know him better. And it adds to the story of the painting. It adds to a very important moment in Munch's career when he came back to Oslo after being several years abroad. I think it's such a moving story about the painting.

CO: Mai Britt, I really appreciate you telling us about it. Thank you.

MAI BRITT GULENG: Thank you. Bye.

CH: My Britt Guleng is the curator of old masters and modern paintings at Norway's National Museum of Art, Architecture and Design. We reached her in Oslo.

[Music: guitar instrumental]

The GoCube

Guest: David Calvo

CH: My problem is not that a Rubik's cube isn't smart. The problem is that it's smarter than me. But I guess there's a market out there for a cube puzzle that doesn't just silently mock me with its scrambled colours. It also marks me by sharing my failures with my phone and or tablet. It's called the GoCube, the smart connected cube. Now, apparently the smart cube knows exactly how scrambled it is at any given time. It monitors every one of your twists and turns through an app, and it can teach you the principles of solving it in a single hour. And if you have trouble absorbing those principles, there's a feature that takes you step by step through solving it without any thought at all. All for the not low price of 60 bucks U.S., which is about $75 Canadian, which feels a bit like paying for a fancy meal that whispers to you about how to properly use cutlery and then eats itself for you. Of course, there are plenty of people who don't need this kind of help, including David Calvo of Spain, who isn't just smarter than the Rubik's Cube. He is smarter than three. In 2011, he spoke with Carol about his latest achievement at the time, juggling two cubes with one hand while solving one with the other.

CO: David, I've seen the video of what you do, it's quite amazing, maybe you could describe what it is that you're doing there.

DAVID CALVO: Well, I think it's quite easy to describe how I solve a Rubik's Cube with one hand while I am juggling two other Rubik's Cube with my other hand. So basically, I'm solving the cube while I'm juggling.

CO: Well, it might be easy to describe, but how easy is it to do?

DC: Well for me it's not very difficult and I guess that for anyone, if he's [inaudible], if he practised a lot, I think it shouldn't be difficult to do. I think it looks like something impossible, but nothing is impossible. Impossible just means that you haven't tried enough. That's it.

CO: I didn't time the length of that video, how long does it take you to solve a Rubik's Cube while juggling two others?

DC: Oh, I can solve it in around 40 seconds, 30 to 40 seconds. It depends. Sometimes I go slower. Some other times I go faster, it depends.

CO: You know, that a lot of people couldn't solve a Rubik's Cube that quickly if they were sitting down at their desk doing nothing else but focusing on that. You do know that don't you?

DC: That's what I have been told. It's because they haven't practised enough. That's it.

CO: How long have you been practising this?

DC: Well, I started like seven years ago now, but when I started very constantly at the beginning, then I stopped because it's just a hobby and it's a hobby. I don't want you to get, you know, to get tired of it. So, I started very, very much into it, but then I stopped. And nowadays I don't even practise. I mean, maybe I played with it like two or three days a month, nothing more.

CO: So you decided to do this while juggling. What other ways have you innovated Rubik's Cube solving?

DC: Some people call me crazy, but the thing is, I want to, I don't know how to say in English, to go farther and to try to beat myself. As soon as I could solve it with two hands, I tried to solve it with one hand, then I tried to solve it while juggling. I have solved it underwater, holding my breath, you know, surrounded by sharks and in a swimming pool. Well, I don't know. I just wanted to beat myself and go any farther. I could.

CO: Well, what's next where you're going to do it? What's your plan?

DC: Well, I have planned for a long time to jump from the plane and solve the cube before I smash against the floor.

CO: Ouch, don't do that.

DC: Well, yeah. Yeah, I want to. I really want to. But it's difficult to get because I would like to jump by myself. And it's quite difficult because you need to get instructed and you need to do a lot of jumping to be able to jump by yourself. And this is what I'm wanting. This is what I'm waiting for. I mean, I'm waiting for someone who offers me the possibility to do this. I would yeah, I definitely will do it if I'm able to.

CH: From October of 2011, that was David Cavo of Bilbao, Spain, speaking with Carroll about his mastery of the Rubik's Cube.

[Music: Wind instruments]

Family Letter

CH: Republican Congressman Adam Kinzinger made a name for himself when he voted to impeach Donald Trump, but now his family says he has sullied theirs. 11 of Mr. Kinzinger's relatives sent him a handwritten two page letter saying he is in cahoots with, quote, the devil's army. They did not like that he called for the removal of Mr. Trump from office after the riots on Capitol Hill last month. And the family feud has journalists curious. CNN anchor Chris Cuomo had Congressman Kinzinger on his show last night to ask him why he remained so outspoken despite the policies of his party and his family.

ADAM KINZINGER: Where does this party go? What does that look like? What does it continue to say? We're going to pledge allegiance to a man over a flag in some cases. Does it say, you know what, we're going to get back to the roots of what we believe and put it in the twenty-first century with updated technology, if that's the case? And I think that will be the case, but it's only going to happen when people are coming out and speaking the truth. I mean, look, Chris, in my district, I got sixty five percent of the vote. Donald Trump got fifty six percent of the vote. If you think the Donald Trump thing in the long term is going to be the winning coalition and not somebody like me that's conservative but doesn't offend people and doesn't go out and attack and say that you owe me everything and doesn't incite insurrections, there will be a minority party forever. But I don't know what that looks like. All I know is I can rest with real peace, knowing that I'm going to fight as hard as I can to get a normal functioning Republican Party that needs to be part of this.

CHRIS CUOMO: And in fairness, you didn't get brought into office because Trump said so. He was not a fan of yours for some time because of your lack of fealty. We haven't heard of the party making a move on you unless there's something you want to let us know in terms of not wanting you on committees or anything like that. So that's a good indication. Have you been able to mollify any of your family members?

AK: So, look, the vast majority of my family, even if they disagree with me, they're good family members. These are my dad's cousins. And quite honestly, the letter that came out, I didn't even release that. She had sent that to so many people out of so much anger, just can't help herself and it went out. And I'm glad the letter came out because I think that people need to see if you haven't experienced that division in your family. This is the best example of it. And so, look, I hold nothing against them. I mean, maybe someday I'll have to look back and do some more forgiveness in my heart. But I don't feel it right now. I just have no desire really to reach out and repair it. That's up to them.

CH: That was U.S. Republican Representative Adam Kinzinger speaking on CNN's Cuomo primetime last night.

[Music: Soft rock instrumental]

Implicit Bias

CH: Yesterday, the confirmation hearing for U.S. Attorney General nominee Merrick Garland got underway. Mr. Garland told the Senate Judiciary Committee an investigation into the capital riot would be his first priority, and he vowed to protect the Department of Justice from political interference. He also spoke at length about the need to address systemic racism in the criminal justice system. And that prompted an exchange with Republican Senator John Kennedy, who asked Mr. Garland to clarify the meaning of implicit bias.

JOHN KENNEDY: I want to ask you about this concept of implicit bias. Yeah. Does that mean I'm a racist no matter what I do or what I think I'm a racist, but I don't know, I'm a racist.

MERRICK GARLAND: That label racist is not one that I would apply like that. Implicit bias just means that every human being has biases. That's part of what it means to be a human being. And the point of examining our implicit biases is to bring our conscious mind up to our unconscious mind and to know when we're behaving in a stereotyped way. Everybody has stereotypes. It's not possible to go through life without working through stereotypes. And implicit biases are the ones that we don't recognize our behaviour. That doesn't make you racist, no.

JK: Who judges that? Doesn't the person judging me have his own implicit bias. How do I know his implicit bias isn't worse then my implicit bias?

MG: I agree. But I'm not judging you, Senator, and I don't know who would be.

JK: But somebody. If you say you have implicit bias, that's a pejorative statement. I'm not saying you're being mean. You're not a mean guy. That's obvious. You're a nice guy. If you say somebody has implicit bias, somebody's got to make that subjective judgement. And the person making that subjective judgement has implicit bias. If it's part of being a human, then how do you know who wins?

MG: Fair enough. But if we say that all people have implicit bias, it's not you shouldn't take it as pejorative. This is just an element of the human condition.

CH: U.S. Attorney General nominee Merrick Garland trying to explain the concept of implicit bias to Republican Senator John Kennedy at his confirmation hearing yesterday.

[Music: soft guitar instrumental]

Part 3: Glockenspiel Complaints

Glockenspiel Complaints

Guest: Ron Thomas

CH: When the glockenspiel returned to a downtown park in Regina, most people rejoiced, finally, some sweet, plinky music amid the cacophony of the pandemic. Plus glockenspiel is also a really fun word to say. And who can get mad at a fancy xylophone? Ron Thomas is who. He remembers the sweet relief he felt when the German percussion instrument was removed from Victoria Park for repairs 10 years ago. Now that it's back, he is hearing the clanging of alarm bells. We reached Ron Thomas on his balcony a block away from the glockenspiel in downtown Regina.

CO: Ron is just gone one o'clock in Regina, are you on your balcony?

RON THOMAS: Yes, I am.

CO: And the bells are ringing.

RT: Yes, they are.

CO: Can we have a listen?

RT: Sure.

[Glockenspiel sounds]

RT: Were you able to get anything there?

CO: That was excruciating, but I don't know if it's because recording on your phone exaggerates the squeaky ness of it, or is that what it sounds like?

RT: Well, it's very loud. I noticed when people are or near it, they tend to scurry away from it.

CO: Can you tell us what they were playing in there? Could you identify the piece?

RT: It sounded like 'all through the night', which was better than 'blow the man down' that was playing earlier.

CO: Right. OK, and so how long will that go on?

RT: It goes on for about five minutes, twice a day.

CO: And is that the kind of songs they usually play?

RT: They play like traditional German songs or folk tunes. It's quite an elaborate computerised system they have.

CO: What exactly is it? Because glockenspiel, besides being really fun to say, what is it?

RT: I don't think it's a real glockenspiel like, what it is, it looks like a giant tower, sort of monkey bars with bells on it. And to me, the glockenspiel should be something where you've got little figures dancing around that go in and out of a little house and it plays a nice, quiet tune. This is just a big tower about 30 feet tall. But just it's really, really loud and it's right in the corner of a major park right in the centre of downtown.

CO: It's only five minutes, twice a day. Right. So what is it that disturbs you the most about this?

RT: You know, a lot of people have said it's only five minutes. What's the big deal? But there's something about bells that once they stop, they still keep ringing in your head, especially these ones that are very loud and clanging. And in my former life, one of my jobs is as a letter carrier for Canada Post. And when I would go into a business and there is no one at the desk, there would always be a bell there. So I'd walk up to the bell and I'd go, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. And they would always come running from the back, invariably mad. So I kind of really think about that every time the bell goes that bells have an effect on people that makes them mad.

CO: But are you sharing this anger about the glockenspiel with your neighbours?

RT: Yes. In our condo building, the board seems almost unanimous that they don't like it, but they didn't want to do any presentations to the city council as a board because it was something they considered was outside the building. But it was first installed in 1989 and then it broke down in the early 2000s. And everybody was really happy when that happened. And then once they put a new plaza downtown, they resurrected this new glockenspiel and it cost 500,000 dollars to refurbish it, which a lot of the city elector's weren't too happy about.

CO: The CBC reports that it's 350,000, still a lot of money, but where is it? What does the other figure come from?

RT: Oh, I think there are some cost overruns. 350,000 was the initial budget.

CO: And who wanted this glockenspiel to be there?

RT: Well, we've got this business association downtown called Regina Downtown Business Improvement District. And the German club were major pushers of it. And I thought just as I wanted to compromise to have it ring once a day instead of twice a day. I didn't think it would cause all this much trouble. But then once I started getting information in dribs and drabs, it turned out that it was really a big initiative of the councillor in this area in consultation with the German club and the business association. And not only was downtown residential input not welcomed, it wasn't even asked for.

CO: But OK, so this is the glockenspiel in this park area, right?

RT: Yes.

CO: Why does it have to be there? Why is it important to Regina's German community that it live in that park?

RT: I'm not sure. There's no connection to the German communities. Like there's no history of the glockenspiel in Regina before and there's no connection to Victoria Park. So the only things in Victoria Park are kind of decidedly anti German, our World War One and two War Memorial is there. So I'm really not sure why they wanted it there. One condo group asked that it be put in [inaudible] park, the big park, you know, south of downtown where it could be away from residential people and that it not ring at all, but they were ignored.

CO: There are those, though, who like the sound of it right? They think it's kind of fun there. The local councillor says that's the case. So, ah, there are two sides to this?

RT: Oh, absolutely. There's a lot of people who are in favour of it. Like we've had a lot of feedback. Some of the negative feedback has been we should move out of downtown. There's something wrong with us? We're horrible people, one person even said we're toxic.

CO: Right, well, I guess people's nerves are a bit frayed these days. Right. And for being confined and all that. So maybe they like that sound during these dark times.

RT: That's true. And the counsellor for this area that supports it said that we're the only ones complaining, which isn't the case.

CO: Is there anything else you could do? I mean, I know you don't, like, blow the man down, but is there maybe another tune that could be more acceptable? Could you make requests?

RT: I really wouldn't request any tunes because we're close enough for it to be really irritating. But we're far enough away that it's really hard to make out what the tune is.

CO: OK. So that wouldn't help.

RT: No, if it could play quieter, that would be great. But I don't think. I think a bell is a bell.

CO: Right. OK, Ron, I guess we'll leave it there. Thanks for speaking with us.

RT: Well, thanks very much.

CO: Take care. Bye bye.

RT: Bye bye.

CH: Ron Thomas is the vocal opponent of a very loud glockenspiel located in a park around the corner from his condo. We reached Mr. Thomas in Regina.

[Music: Calm instrumental]

Lost Puppy

CH: When the barking first started, Wade Diceman of White Rock, BC, figured his neighbours had bought a puppy. But as it persisted throughout the evening and the following morning, he became annoyed and then worried. So Mr. Diceman started to investigate. He peeked into his neighbour's backyard but didn't see any sign of a dog. Then he realised the sound was coming from his own property. Here he is telling the rest of the story to CBC Vancouver.

WADE DICEMAN: Suddenly there was a yelp and it came from behind me. And I thought to myself, that sounds like it's coming from my house. So I was a little bit shocked about that. So I went actually, I walked back inside the house and as I was walking back inside the house, I was walking on the deck and I heard the yelp again. And it came from directly below me. Yeah. And so I just stopped and waited. And sure enough, another yelp from directly below me and I could see just this tiny, tiny, narrow opening. And so I crawled under there and I couldn't make much progress. So I got a shovel and I shovelled it out for about 15 minutes so that I could get my head near where the opening was. And I shouted into that opening and I could hear a dog. Clearly, I got a shovel and I got an edger and I got a pry bar and I pried off one deck plank and I looked down and I could see clearly that there was a well or a shaft there that went about six feet down. I pried off a couple more and I was looking I couldn't quite see. I got my iPhone. I turned on the flashlight and I found it down there and I could see the dog's eyes. And at that point, oh, I just felt my heart leap and I said, It's OK, it's OK. I'm going to get you out. I'm going to get you out. I lowered something down so that I would be able to climb back up. And I jumped down there and took Kali in my arms and pushed her out the top and then climbed up myself. And I was so relieved and she was literally shaking. She was just so traumatised by the whole experience. I took her inside the house. I got her a bowl of water and looked at her tags and then tried to get a hold of the owners. But I couldn't do anything with the tags. So then I checked Craigslist. And sure enough, the second listing, White Rock, Dog missing. So I called them and I could just hear it in their voices and they said, we'll be right over. And they were at my door within a minute and I opened my door a little bit more so that Kali could see them. And she went bounding towards them in their faces, just erupted in emotion and the tears welled up in their eyes. And it was like one of those TV dog movies. There's this reunion. And it was oh, so, so amazing, so touching.

CH: That was Wade Diceman speaking with CBC Vancouver about Kali, a ten year old Cairn terrier that got stuck under his porch.

[Music: Elevator music]

Kenya Locusts Startup

Guest: Laura Stanford

CH: In parts of Kenya right now, the earth and the air are alive. Everywhere you look, everywhere you walk, are locusts. The insects have laid siege to the East African nation, destroying huge swaths of pastures and crops. Their appearance is a yearly occurrence, but Kenyans haven't seen anything on this scale in at least 70 years. And of course, the economic situation is made even worse by the pandemic. But a Start-Up Agriculture Company in Nairobi is hoping to help. It's called The Bug Picture, and it says it's found a way to help farmers use locusts to their advantage. Laura Stanford is the co-founder of The Bug Picture. We reached her in Nairobi, Kenya.

CO: Laura, first of all, how bad was the locust infestation this year?

LAURA STANFORD: It was sort of at biblical proportions, if you want to call it that. It's a bit dramatic, but it was quite an interesting thing going into communities and starting to speak to people about this infestation itself. And one of the stories that struck me was that some of the community members, when the locusts first arrived last year, didn't know a word in their local dialect for a locust. And it's because they had never seen them. And it was the first time that their grandparents then came forward with these stories about how when they were young, these swarms came through Kenya and did the same thing. So absolutely devastating croplands. And that was 70 years ago. So for the past 70 years, we've been very blessed here in Kenya that we haven't had infestations like this. It is phenomenal with the skies going black. And so when you're driving your car, it's literally you're just slamming them with your windscreen. And it's quite phenomenal.

CO: Right and so we've done a number of stories of interviewing people about this and just how horrible it is and livelihoods being wiped out. What is this, The Bug Picture? What are you able to offer farmers to help them cope with the situation?

LS: So when I started looking at some of the options, I came across a story coming out of Pakistan where they were doing a similar project and harvesting the locusts. And that really, really rang true with me because it was a thing that an individual could do to somehow make a difference in the face of this terrible, terrible thing that was happening to them, to their communities, their neighbours, to the country as a whole.

CO: So they are harvesting the locusts. What are they doing with them?

LS: We mobilised the communities once we know where the locusts are going to roost at night. So they sleep overnight. We mobilise the nearest communities and we get them to harvest them, sort of like picking fruit off trees or shaking trees or whatever. And then the following morning, we have our mobile team there to receive the locusts and pay 50 Kenyan shillings per kilogram of harvested locust. And so this is a cash for work program. And then we take those locusts away to our nearest processing centre. We then kill them and dry them for three days. So essentially, from the time that they get harvested to within a week, we've got a milled locust meal that can be sold to animal feed millers for inclusion in animal feed.

CO: Wow. And so is it a rich nutrient? Is it something that is of benefit to livestock?

LS: Yes, so, locusts are incredibly rich in protein. And that is one of the one of the major challenges facing the animal feed industry in East Africa as a whole is the inconsistent quality of available protein sources. So what we normally look at here for animal feed is the protein input, fishmeal or soy. And both of these are really detrimental to the environment through farming or through wild harvest of fish from the oceans. So this is sort of where The Bug Picture and where our passion lies is to create sustainable sources of protein making use of insects.

CO: Now, how does the milling happen? I mean, there's a big machine that you've got.

LS: It's actually one of the cool aspects of the project is that we are wherever possible trying to inject money into local communities. So something that is quite unique, probably in Africa is that most villagers have got a small mill. Most of them run on diesel and they can mill probably about 400kg in a day. So these are really small machines. But this is someone's entrepreneurial business that supports them and their families in these villages across Kenya, for sure. But also the wider region.

CO: OK, so you're giving them some funding, you are getting rid of some of these locusts. But are you getting enough of them harvested in order to make a difference for the crops?

LS: We are yeah. We're a very, very small project by comparison to what the FAA is doing with their spraying operations. And they are most most certainly the main focus for the response. And they're doing an incredible job in reducing the swarm size so that the locusts are becoming less of a problem. That being said, we are making an impact. So during the month of February, we've harvested two tonnes of locusts, which equates to about a million insects. And as it's now starting to rain here in Kenya with the rains arriving across the region, this is when the locusts will start to mate and lay eggs. So that's basically what we've done, is taken about a million insects out of the population that won't then lay eggs, which has a longer term positive effect, which is obviously wonderful.

CO: The interviews we've done about this locust infestation, that it's a result of climate change. And so there's no reason to expect this is going to stop or just be confined to this season. So going forward, how are the farmers going to deal with that?

LS: I think in future instances, we will be more prepared in general. So it seemed as though everyone was very surprised last year, at the beginning of last year, and it took a few months for the organisations responsible for the response to really get going. And that, I think, had quite a big effect on the longevity of these swarms. So I think longer term, the response and the ability to act quite quickly will automatically be there. And I know that organisations like the FAA are looking at how we can have early response. That being said, I think that this type of approach is also going to have a place in the response, because people are going to become more and more reliant on projects that are crop related. So if we can see locusts as livestock, view them as a crop that can be harvested, then this is a great opportunity for people to continue the project after the official project ends.

CO: Thanks so much, Laura.

LS: Yeah, thanks so much, Carol.

CO: Bye bye.

LS: Bye.

CH: Laura Stanford is the co-founder of The Bug Picture. We reached her in Nairobi, Kenya. And you can find more on the story on our website, CBC.ca/AIH.

[Music: Upbeat pop music]

Lawrence Ferlinghetti Obit

CH: You may not have heard of Lawrence Ferlinghetti, but you've probably heard of the writers, his City Lights bookstore published the likes of Jack Kerouac, Allen Ginsberg and William Burroughs, writers whose names are synonymous with the beat movement, as was the brilliant poetry of Mr. Ferlinghetti himself. The poet, publisher and bookseller died yesterday at his San Francisco home. He was 101 years old. In 1993, he was Ann Medina's guest here on As It Happens, talking about the 40th anniversary of his legendary City Lights bookstore and how it felt to look back on those decades.

LAWRENCE FERLINGHETTI: I don't know how to look back. I can only look to the forward. I have a type of neck that only goes 180 degrees.

ANN MEDINA: Well, take us back a little bit if you can somehow turn your neck around. Back to the days when City Lights was starting. What was the atmosphere in San Francisco then? Was it a city of poets even back then?

LF: No, it was a city of Senator McCarthy and the un-American Activities Committee. It was a very repressive regime for the arts.

AM: Well, what kind of a role did City Lights play in those early days?

LF: We were on a roll, alright? R.O.L.L. Yes. And we played the role of being a centre for poets when we started City Lights bookstore. It was only a one room affair for many years, but it was the first all paperback bookstore in the country. And there was a huge void for this. And as soon as we got the doors opened, we were open from 10 a.m. to midnight, seven days a week and couldn't get the doors closed and the same today.

AM: Now, one of your first publishing ventures was what, Allen Ginsberg's, Howl?

LF: Oh, yes, it was. It was the fourth book we published. I find in the history of publishers, some of the greatest publishers in the world that they had a big success early on that established them as publishers. And you might say, courtesy of the San Francisco Police Department and the US Customs, we were able to have great success publishing Allen's Howl.

AM: What were some of the problems with people like the customs officials and all those? What were some of the problems that publishing Howl got you into?

LF: They didn't like four letter words, and so we were arrested and charged with publishing obscene poetry.

AM: You, in a sense, paved the way for quite a few then famous works of literature getting...

LF: Yeah, there was a precedent established by a judge, Clayton Horn, a municipal court judge here, that you could not, quote, "censor anything that had the slightest redeeming social significance". That was a key phrase. And so that allowed the press within a few years to publish the tropics of Henry Miller and D.H. Lawrence's Lady Chatterley's Lover and so forth.

AM: What other kinds of marks do you think City Lights has made in terms of literature in America in the 20th century?

LF: Well, the bookstore became a real literary meeting place in Europe and traditionally in cafes in France, for instance, they were literary foyers, but in this country there was no place for writers to congregate and really inspired an enormous amount of cafe bookstores. I find that a cafe bookstore often ends up a very good cafe, but not a very good bookstore. [Laughter] We've tried to, consciously tried to have really the best paperback bookstore and we actually have cafe tables, but no coffee.

AM: No coffee.

LF: Coffee rings on books aren't too good.

AM: What about is as publisher, we've been publishing quite a bit of feminist literature and Third World literature, really the future of writing in English and in besides in Spanish perhaps as in Third World and women's writing, I think.

AM: What do you look...

LF: [Inaudible] doesn't have any revolution to win?

AM: You think that anger is a necessary ingredient to good writing sometimes?

LF: Yes. Hunger and passion is what's needed for great writing.

CH: Beat poet and publisher Lawrence Ferlinghetti speaking with guest host Ann Medina on As It Happens in August 1993. Mr. Ferlinghetti died yesterday. He was 101 years old.

February 23, 2021 Episode Transcript

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