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The AIH Transcript for April 13, 2021

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

CO: Eye on the needle. Health officials in the US call for a pause on the Johnson and Johnson vaccine to investigate some extremely rare reactions. But a doctor who already got it says she wasn't worried for a second.

CH: Going in alone. Thousands of youth seeking asylum in the US continue to be detained at the Mexican border, causing a backlog in reunification efforts and a political problem.

CO: Not taking one for the team. A university student explains why she's so keen to prove the efficacy of vaccines that she's willing to forgo her own in the name of science.

CH: Flight stimulator. Canada's transport minister says Ottawa has 6-billion dollar deal with Air Canada won't just get the airline airborne after the pandemic, it might also be a way for taxpayers to earn some extra cash.

CO: No uncertain terms. Researchers examined thousands of scientific papers about caves, and find use of highly technical jargon leads other scientists to avoid them.

CH: And step right up. Tennessee legislators consider a bill that would designate the ladder as the official state tool. While some believe that title should be reserved for the guys who introduced the bill. As It Happens. The Tuesday Edition. Radio that knows two rungs don't make a right.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: 'Everyone wins' in Air Canada relief deal, says federal transport minister

JJ Vaccine Pause

Guest: Leana Wen

CH: It looks like the Johnson and Johnson vaccine will be left sitting on US shelves, at least for now. Today, US federal health officials called for a pause on the use of the one shot vaccine after reports of rare blood clots. The risk of a blood clot is extremely low. Only six cases were tied to the vaccine out of nearly 7-million shots. But already more than two dozen states have temporarily stopped injections. And the Food and Drug Administration says it's investigating. The vaccine has been approved in Canada, but we haven't received any of the shots yet. Dr. Leana Wen is an emergency physician and public health professor at George Washington University. She just got the Johnson and Johnson shot. We reached her in Baltimore.

CO: Doctor Wen I know you just got your shot of Johnson and Johnson, are you worried?

LEANA WEN: I will say that for me personally, I am not worried. I understand that the possible link of this very severe blood clot is one in a million. It literally is one in a million. We're talking about six cases out of nearly 7-million people in the US who have received the Johnson Johnson vaccine. I think we need to keep that in perspective. But I also think it's really important that we have this pause on vaccine administration while this possible link is investigated, because transparency is absolutely critical here.

CO: Do we even know, though, for sure -- so it's six cases tied to the vaccine that are being investigated out of seven million shots, as you point out. About one in a million. But has it been proven that it is related to the vaccine?

LW: It has not. So that causality is really important to mention. It has not been linked directly. What has gotten the attention of investigators and public health officials is that the Johnson and Johnson vaccine uses a similar mechanism as the AstraZeneca vaccine -- they both use an adenovirus vector. The AstraZeneca vaccine has also been linked to these rare but severe blood clots. And so there is a concern about could there be some kind of cause? We don't know what it is. But in the meantime, an abundance of caution approach, I think is again really important for the investigation to proceed in a public and transparent manner.

CO: Is it possible to even find out what the link might be, given that the people, the six people who have got this blood clot after having had the vaccine are women, they are between the ages of 18 and 48, we know with the AstraZeneca which has a similar makeup in many ways -- it seemed to have affected women under the age of 55. So given that that's what the cohort is, is it actually possible to find out what the connection might be?

LW: Well, those are the things that federal officials will be looking into, health officials will be looking into. For example, could it be -- and I don't know that this is the case at all, but this is something to look into -- could it be that all these women have something else in common? Could they all be taking, for example, birth control pills, which we know is something that could predispose to blood clots? Could it be that these women all have similar types of underlying medical conditions that also predispose them to blood clots? That would be the most straightforward answer, because then you could say while people with those underlying medical conditions should not get this vaccine, they could get the other vaccines, but not this one. If they don't find a common underlying cause like that -- and perhaps we could see what some European countries have done, which is to make age based recommendations that for people under a certain age, the risks may outweigh the benefits versus for people over a certain age, the likelihood of having these blood clots is very low versus the benefit is very high. And potentially this vaccine could be recommended only to certain groups of individuals. But it's premature for us to say exactly which way they will go. This is why the independent committees of scientists here in the US are going to be investigating this in the days to come.

CO: I guess the problem with that is that they're limiting to what age groups can get it. It's that this particular vaccine is very convenient, isn't it? I mean, it's one dose. It doesn't require the refrigeration that the Pfizer and the Moderna ones do, very similar to AstraZeneca -- which actually does need two doses. This is something that can get into more remote communities. It's more stable. It's just easier to manage. So it's been tremendously helpful in the States, hasn't it, using this J & J vaccine?

LW: There is no doubt that not having J & J will be a major disappointment and a major setback if, in fact, it needs to be limited in some way, because, as you mentioned, it is one dose. And so it offers many advantages when it comes to convenience. Here's my greater concern, though, my greater concern is that anti-vaccine activists are going to latch onto this news and somehow try to say that other vaccines are not safe, which is not the case at all. I first want to say that the Johnson and Johnson vaccine has a different mechanism of action from the Pfizer and Moderna vaccine. Here in the US over 100-million people have received the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines. There has been no safety signal found in these groups. The other component here, too, is I actually think that people should be reassured that there is already a pause, even with six cases of something -- that means that our regulatory authorities are doing their job. They're really using an abundance of caution approach. And I think people should be reassured in how thorough this is and not hesitate to get the two vaccines, the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines in the US that are authorised by our Food and Drug Administration and that have no concerning red flags, even after having so many people who received the vaccine.

CO: I guess if everyone could listen to you, they might feel reassured. But lots of people are not getting access to sort of wise counsel. And so by this abundance of caution and being prudent about this, it does put a red flag on the field, doesn't it? I mean, for a lot of people this is exactly what they need in order to say, "Aha, this is not going to work, this is not safe." I mean by raising this concern, isn't it actually going to possibly cause more harm than good?

LW: I think that transparency is the best option for assuring the public of the proper regulatory actions that are and have been taken. I mean, I understand that there are only six cases and I've already heard a lot of people say, 'Well, why does this not seem like an overreaction for six cases?' But I really hope that the public takes away exactly the opposite message.

CO: All right. Well, we'll leave it there Dr. Wen. And we'll be watching. But thank you for speaking with us.

LW: Thank you.

CH: Dr. Leana Wen is an emergency physician who previously served as Baltimore's health commissioner. We reached her in Baltimore.

[Music: Drum & Bass Music]

Air Canada Deal

Guest: Omar Alghabra

CH: The Trudeau government has cut a nearly 6-billion dollar deal with Air Canada. The airline had been lobbying for help to dig it out from under the pandemic. In exchange, Ottawa will wind up with a partial ownership stake in the company. There are also job guarantees and promises both to reopen regional routes and to reimburse passengers for flights that they paid for but couldn't take because of COVID-19. Omar Alghabra is the federal transport minister and we reached him in Mississauga.

CO: Minister Alghabra, why would Canadian taxpayers want to once again own an airline?

OMAR ALGHABRA: Carol, yesterday's announcement was a good announcement for Canadians, for workers in the aviation sector and for communities who have been disconnected because of COVID and because of passengers who also have been carrying the financial burden of cancelled flights. We reached an agreement with Air Canada. Given the pressure that they're feeling because of COVID, we offered some financing support as loans, and because we believe strongly in the future of the aviation sector we also wanted Canadians to get some upside from this arrangement. So we now have a stake in Air Canada because we believe strongly in the future of aviation sector and the workers of the aviation sector.

CO: Right. So what do Canadians get out of it? Canadians who don't travel. It's 500 million dollars, half a billion dollars of stock in equity stake in Air Canada that they will now own. And taxpayers are providing more than five billion in repayable loans and now another one and a half billion in credit. So what do Canadians get out of that?

OA: So first, it's important Carol to let your listeners know that we expect these loans to be paid back. Air Canada and other airline companies are going through a difficult and challenging situation because of COVID and because of limitation of travel. So they're going through cash flow scarcity. And we needed to make sure that they are able to operate and that we protect jobs and that communities that have been disconnected are reconnected. That's what Canadians get. Canadians will also maintain a resilient aviation sector, which our economy depends on, which our security depends on. So making sure that we have a competitive and a resilient airline sector is good for all Canadians. But it's also important that there's upside to this deal. In addition to maintaining a resilient airline sector, we believe that the stake in Air Canada will grow in value and this will benefit Canadians.

CO: But you mentioned the repayable loans, but also there's a 1.4-billion dollar credit facility that they can draw on to refund customers for flights that were cancelled. So Air Canada doesn't have to pay these people back. They took their money. They never flew them anywhere because of the pandemic. And now taxpayers will put up the money for those people to get reimbursed. And what are the guarantees that those customers will be refunded?

OA: This is a commitment written in contract by Air Canada. So there are commitments made. There are specifics about which passengers -- so passengers who booked their flights prior to March 22nd and then they chose to cancel their flight because of COVID or passengers who bought their flight or trips after February 20th and then the airline themselves were the ones who cancelled, those passengers will be refunded and it was agreed upon in the terms of the agreement.

CO: You also mentioned that the important thing, one other important aspect is the labour force of Air Canada, that these are people whose jobs depend on this bailout, this assistance. But what guarantees do you have that there won't be layoffs, that they will get those jobs back?

OA: Thank you for bringing that up again, Carol, because this is also another clause of the agreement. Air Canada has committed that there will be no more layoffs as long as this agreement is enforced. So we are protecting existing jobs. But not only that, we believe that with the restoration of roots, with the maintenance of aircrafts, with the purchase of additional aircraft, all that will generate or create even additional jobs or restore even jobs that were lost because of the pandemic. So we think this is a good announcement for aviation workers

CO: Because as you mentioned, the agreement includes an order for 33 Airbus A220 aircraft, that that order has to be filled, producing jobs in Montreal. Is that going to help you in the next election?

OA: Carol, your listeners would know that from day one our government has been committed to supporting Canadians throughout the pandemic. And this is another illustration of how our government is committed to supporting workers, to supporting sectors that are important for our economy. So this is the right thing to do. And we believe that doing the right thing also will get support for Canadians. But our focus and our emphasis is doing the right thing by Canadians.

CO: Do you have an idea how much all this is going to cost if you're going to be offering bailouts to WestJet? Porter Airlines also says that it's in discussions with you. Transat. What's going to be the price tag of all this?

OA: So I want to quibble with the word you use, Carol, which is a bailout. This is not a bailout. This is offering loans to airlines during this very very difficult time for them where they're crunched for cash. And there's very little travel going on because of public health measures. So we're offering them loans that we expect to be repaid. In fact, not only do I expect that it won't cost Canadian Canadian taxpayers money, but hopefully there's upside in it for taxpayers.

CO: We will leave it there. Mr. Alghabra thank you.

OA: Thank you.

CH: Omar Alghabra is the federal transport minister. We reached him in Mississauga, Ontario. And you can find more about this story on our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Guitar Music]

Cave Science Jargon

Guest: Alejandro Martinez

CH: Some scientists love jargon that includes cave scientists. But even their cave science colleagues sometimes find that jargon leaves them entirely in the dark. For a new study published this month, some cave researchers spelunked into the archives to examine more than 20,000 articles. They found that some of their peers don't really know how to relay information without using really complicated terminology. And that the more of that complicated terminology a paper contained, the less often other scientists use that study in their own work. The researchers also put together a glossary of 1500 jargony words used frequently and unhelpfully by cave scientists. Alejandro Martinez is one of the authors of the study. We reached him in Verbania, Italy.

CO: Alejandro, as you know, there is a lot of jargon in science. So what is it about cave science that seems to inspire so much more?

ALEJANDRO MARTINEZ: I think the reason for scientists having so much jargon may be rooted in the history and the development of the discipline of cave science itself. Because traditionally caves has been a place where scientists working in many areas have met, but also scientists from many countries. So the discipline was started in Europe and then German cavers met with Hungarian cavers and with British cavers. And they all brought their own words to the find similar things with their own etymology and then it resulted in this beautiful mess. It's a beautiful mess. [Laughs]

CO: And not just because they all come from different countries, but because there's different disciplines, right?

AM: Yeah, I think it's for both reasons. You know, they were not only biologists going into the cave, but people interested in human culture and archaeology and geology. So, yeah, each one brought their own terminologies.

CO: Okay so give us an example. Give us a biology example of jargon in cave science.

AM: Well, the most iconic one is like the collection of words that they invented to define the set of cave specialised animals. It's quite fair enough to say that they started with a word troglodyte which defines those animals that they can only live inside caves and they are highly specialised to them. But then as they got more into the topic, they realised that that was not always the case, that there were different degrees of specialisation. So then they start calling them troglobiont, troglodytic, troglophiles, and so on. And it's like a huge collection.

CO: So here's an example from your study that this is a geologist description of marble as metaphoric rock produced by the re-crystallisation of calcite or dolomite. Why don't they just say marble?

AM: Exactly. That's when jargon is quite useful, right? Because you can just put all these words into one term. And then just like with one look, you know how many letters? Five letters, just like deliver this piece of information, re-crystallisation, blah, blah. And of course, in order to capture these meaning, you have to have this background, you have to share the background with the person who's using the jargon.

CO: Here is another one from your study, a zoologist defining a white blind salamander as a neotenic metazoan with anophthalmia. [Laughter] So do you have a favourite one?

AM: Yeah, well, I like many, but because we usually make fun with this one, there is a German word called [pronounces word in German] or something like this. I'm not pronouncing it right. So I apologise if anyone that speaks German is hearing me now. But (the word) it's used to refer to the water that you can access when you think a hole on the beach. And then at some point if you're going deep enough, there's some water popping up and there's some animals living in that. So then they call this habitat, these waterhole, custa combasa, like coastal ground water.

CO: I mean, you know, is it possible that one person's jargon may be another person's precise, though obscure term? I mean, when they're talking to each other, they want to be precise and use language that helps the other scientists take them seriously, right?

AM: Yeah, I think part of the reason why people tend to use a lot of jargon is because somehow this technical language makes the reader believe that we know very well what we are talking about. But the problem is not even within the same field, scientists working on it on a topic agree 100 percent on the meaning of a word. And the problem is, you know, you have these differences of understanding and sometimes the farther they get into the background, the more amplified these differences get. At some point, people fall in these so-called fallacies, that you hear to word and they are two different things and they start having an argument over the same word, but understanding them differently [laughs] and we have seen that through history, right.

CO: [Laughs] Alejandro that's just academia. That's just what happens in academic circles. What your study shows, though, is that there are consequences, negative consequences, for these scientists who are putting too much jargon in their papers, right?

AM: We focus basically on the title and the abstract of the study. So when someone is trying to decide which paper to read, the first thing that they check is the abstract. And so we analyse this. And then we saw that when people uses more jargon words in the abstract, then the number of citations that their paper receives goes down -- meaning that less scientist use it and cite it in their own studies. So somehow it shows that the more jargon you use, the less people read the papers.

CO: But does that matter to the scientist? I mean, if they're talking to each other -- so what does it matter that people outside their circle isn't interested in their work?

AM: Well, it matters a lot nowadays because I think we are going towards more and more multidisciplinary science. The problems that we're facing today are not the same problems that we were facing not even 20 years ago. I mean, physicists are doing biology now, and biologists are helping chemists, and mathematicians are all over the place. So I actually have a brother who's a physicist and works in biology, I've been thinking about this deeply. [Chuckles] So if I want to tell my brother, what am I doing? I rather use words that he can understand as a physicist, and then if I want to communicate my results to the society trying to tackle some of their problems that we all have, I need to use words that everyone can understand.

CO: But are you getting pushback from cave scientists who are unhappy with your analysis?

AM: Not yet. [Laughs] But we are really expecting that. On the other hand, we are not saying that jargon is bad. Not at all. And actually, we think that the jargon can be very useful. The paper is more like a call to think about this. And at the end of the paper, we coined a jargon word to define this misunderstanding that emerges when people use jargon from different disciplines. And we did this in order to show that we are actually trying to joke a little bit about the problem that I think we all have.

CO: If you're going take this on Alejandro your work is cut out for you, so I'll leave you to it. [Chuckles] It is great fun to speak with you. Thank you.

AM: Thank you.

CH: Alejandro Martinez is an evolutionary biologist and researcher at the Molecular Ecology Group. We reached him in Verbania, Italy. And you can find more on the story on our webpage: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Guitar Music]

Ladder

CH: In pretty much every legislature, people vote yay or nay on bills. But in some cases, you really should be allowed to vote, "Sure, I guess," or "Fine, whatever." For example, yesterday's vote in the Tennessee House of Representatives, which was a matter of utmost urgency. Sorry, I meant ut least urgency. A bill to designate the ladder as the official state tool. The bill was filed by two Republican lawmakers, one a senator, one a state representative. The bill contains no elaboration whatsoever about why they want the latter to be designated Tennessee's official state tool or why they designate the latter as a tool period. It's not a tool, doesn't even fit in a toolbox. You use tools while you're on a ladder. I mean, if I sold hammers in Tennessee, I'd really be hitting the ceiling right now. Like someone with a hammer on a ladder. As It Happens hasn't heard from either politicians office about their law, probably because we didn't call them. You know, they're busy with the ladder thing, which did pass in the House yesterday, despite a flurry of jokes from people who suggested certain human lawmakers should be designated official state tool. Anyway, congratulations, Tennessee...I guess. Like any true ladder supporter of these politicians really stepped up. Some laws are mysterious and some are just ridiculous. And this one is the former and the ladder.

[Music: Banjo Music]

Part 2: US Border Migrants

US Border Migrants

Guest: Amy Cohen

CH: Over the last two years, the number of unaccompanied minors seeking asylum in the US has more than doubled. Last month alone, American border authorities intercepted roughly 18,000 kids crossing the US-Mexico border. And those numbers are not expected to shrink anytime soon. Meanwhile, US officials are struggling to house the current surge of children and to find ways to reunite them with their families already in the country. Dr. Amy Cohen is the executive director of the non-profit organisation Every. Last. One. She's been helping with those reunification efforts. We reached her in Los Angeles.

CO: Dr. Cohen, what are the children that you're meeting, what are they telling you about the facilities in which they're being kept?

AMY COHEN: Children are describing this pretty much across the board as a kind of hell. The place is extraordinarily overcrowded. These are children who are newly taken from the border, many of them from family members, so they've been newly separated. Often they're traumatised and they're placed in rooms that may hold 100 single bed type mats on the floor. Sometimes they are sleeping three teenagers to a mat. So it is extraordinarily uncomfortable. We're told that the food is terrible, the conditions are really awful. And many of the children are highly distressed.

CO: Even as overcrowded as they are, they're not supposed to stay very long. This is supposed to be sort of a transition centre, right?

AC: That's absolutely right, yes. By law, technically, these children are not permitted to stay longer than 72 hours in Customs and Border Protection facilities. But we are seeing them stay in excess of two weeks often. And the government is permitted to have that kind of leeway if there are special circumstances which they are declaring that there are because the places that they would otherwise pass them to are themselves full.

CO: And so now the latest is, is that there are as many as 20,000 children and teenagers in the custody of the US government system. Is that your understanding?

AC: That is absolutely right, yes, shockingly.

CO: Where are those children to go?

AC: Well, probably 95 percent of those children have family in the United States prepared, anxious, willing to bring them home. Only half of the children in these facilities have parents living in the United States ready, willing, and prepared to take them home. So the fact that these children are being kept away from family, away from parents, detained for we're seeing sometimes two-three months is quite shocking.

CO: And why are they not being released to their families?

AC: They're not being released to their families because the system that has been in effect for some time is one which really doesn't favour release as a priority. It's one that favours detention as a priority with a very slow and bureaucratic and often individualised system which parents and other family members must endure and must be put through before they're allowed to get these children back.

CO: Can you tell us about what you did yesterday?

AC: On Saturday I received a call about a Venezuelan family whose six year old child had come to the United States with his stepfather, his half brother, and his grandmother, and had been separated from the family initially placed in Customs and Border Protection facility and then moved to ORR custody. And the mother was beside herself with worry about this child. She'd actually flown from California to Arizona to try to reunite with him. Nobody would give her any information. All of the Customs and Border Protection facilities people she spoke to refused to allow her to see him or in any way communicate with him. And the first communication she received was early Saturday morning when the Customs and Border Protection guard called her at four o'clock in the morning saying that this child was crying uncontrollably. They were trying to put him on a bus in order to transfer him to the Office of Refugee Resettlement. And he was refusing to go. And so they were calling to ask for mother's help to get him to stop crying and to get on the bus to go to the ORR facility. So they put her on the phone and she did indeed do that. And then she asked, where are you taking him and where is he going? And they refused to tell her. And this is also become much more common than it used to be, this refusal to allow families to know even where these children are being taken. So she was very distressed and begged the guard, but he refused. And then later in the afternoon, he arrived at the facility. And the case manager called her saying, we're very concerned about your child, he won't stop crying, he won't talk, he won't eat. Could you please talk to him and calm him down? So she got on the phone and she did. She talked to him and she calmed him down and she said, "Please, you're calling me to help my child. My child is distressed because he's apart from me. Why can't you let me see him? How about if I fly down there and I go see him?" And the case manager said, "No, absolutely not. You would not be permitted to see him if you came." And that night she got a phone call from the foster mother in the home where the child had been placed in. The foster mother said, "Please, could you help me? Your child won't stop crying and he won't go to sleep." And the mother said to her, "Well, he won't go to sleep because he's never slept in a room by himself. Why don't you lie down with him until he falls asleep? And that will probably help him in." The foster mother said to her, "Well, I'm sorry, I can't do that. I've got my own daughter to attend to. I don't have the time to do that." And this was kind of a final straw for me. So I asked the mother if she would like me to take her down to Phoenix from California. And I told her that I would bring her to this facility and that I would not leave until she was reunited with her child. And that's what we did yesterday.

CO: What was that reunion like?

AC: Well, it was extraordinary. The child was brought having a suspicion he was being reunited with his mother, but not really knowing. He's an extremely extremely bright little six year old guy. And when he saw his mother, he shrieked, he screamed and started to cry and she started to cry. And the two of them just were inseparable.

CO: Given that there are thousands of children in these situations -- I mean, this little boy and his mom had an advocate with you. You were able to intervene. But how many times do you think this gets played out the same way without having an advocate like you?

AC: Oh in the vast majority of cases. The vast majority of cases. We see case after case after case where we know the children would have been held far longer had we not intervened.

CO: Dr. Cohen, I'm glad that you were there for that little boy and that mom. And I appreciate you telling us this truly tragic story and we will be following it. Thank you.

AC: Thank you very much Carol.

CH: Dr. Amy Cohen is the executive director of the non-profit organisation, Every. Last. One.. She's in Los Angeles.

[Music: Calm Music]

Adam Dhalla

CH: At 15 years old, BC high schooler Adam Dhalla already has a birder's eye view of the world. A few years ago, he was the recipient of the American Birding Association's Young Birder of the Year award, and he presented at the International Ornithological Congress -- the youngest person ever to do that. On top of that, and with the help of his dad, he has spent years working on an app. And this month, the free educational game called Find The Birds launched. This morning, Adam Dhalla spoke about the game and explained how he became interested in birds.

ADAM DHALLA: [SOUNDCLIP: I've always been interested in nature as a whole. Like I kind of start off with loving like whales and dolphins, as sure as I think a lot of people around Vancouver are. But those are kind of hard to see, right? Like, you can't go out, look out your window and see an orca unless you're very lucky. So for me, I guess birds were just kind of a natural thing because, like, I'm looking out my window right now and as you're saying, it's a beautiful sunrise and I'm just seeing stuff like right outside my window. And just that opportunity to see so many things so close and just, you know, these wonderful lives of these birds that we see every single day is fascinating to me.

MICHELLE ELIOT: And so you have created this game -- I played a little bit of it last night, actually, with my son, who's 13 and is really into gaming and coding as well. So you've kind of taken elements of an adventure game. You're going on this quest for creatures. And so what do we do? Can you explain how the game works a little bit?

ADAM DHALLA: For sure. So our first level right now, we're working on a BC level right now. But right now our level out is Arizona. Just because I have gone birding there are many times before and wonderful people, wonderful place. But basically what you do is you land in this birding spot, which is this place called Saguaro National Park, Arizona. And you just walk around and you start to kind of discover the map as gamers call a kind of a level. And then you kind of explore, you go into birding mode, which is when you kind of go into first person. So you're usually seeing your little character walking across the screen. But then you can kind of go into birding mode, which you can think about as maybe holding up your binoculars. And then you can see these birds that were animated. And...

MICHELLE ELIOT: What are the birds you see in Arizona?

ADAM DHALLA: Well I think we have around 13 species in our location. I'll name some of my favourites. We can see the elf owl. And these are all real species that you can see in these exact locations. We really want to keep true to the actual birds. You can see Cactus Wren, which is like the state bird of Arizona. One of the last birds you can see is a California condor, which is a super endangered, amazing bird to see that we were lucky enough to see when I was down there. And yeah, I guess I'll leave the rest out for the players to find out. [Chuckles]]

CH: That was 15 year old birder and game co-creator Adam Dhalla speaking with the CBC's Michelle Eliot this morning.

[Music: Calm Music]

Boulder Colorado Mask Study

Guest: Madden Brewster

CH: In the race to vaccinate the world against COVID-19, two simple questions have been fundamental for researchers, namely, are the vaccine safe and do the vaccines work? Fortunately for all of us, the answers appear to be essentially yes and yes, which means some researchers are now turning their attention to other vaccine questions like: how do vaccines affect transmission? That is something Madden Brewster wants to help determine. Ms. Brewster is a 24 year old PhD student at the University of Colorado and one of thousands participating in the Prevent COVID U study. Its authors are monitoring vaccinated and unvaccinated students for infection symptoms and risk of transmission. And in Ms. Brewster's case, participating meant forgoing a shot. We reached Madden Brewster in Boulder, Colorado.

CO: Madden, what made you decide you wanted to be part of the study?

MADDEN BREWSTER: Well, at first I actually kind of wanted to take my chances at potentially getting a vaccine. There is a 50-50 random chance of being able to get the vaccine. And at that point in Colorado, we didn't know when people who are in my age group would be able to get it. So that was my kind of first decision. However, once I sort of made that decision, I decided no matter what arm I got put in, whether it was the control or the actual vaccine up front, that I would kind of stick with it.

CO: What was your reaction when you found out that you were indeed not going to be in the group that got vaccinated?

MB: Yeah, I was a little bummed for sure, but I knew that was a possibility. And kind of worst part was like a week later, Colorado announced that individuals who are 16 and older could get a vaccine if they could find one. So that was kind of more of what I was like, "Oh man." But I had already made this commitment and kind of decided I was going to stick with it.

CO: Yikes. There's one quote from another student, apparently, who when they were told that they were in the group that wouldn't get the vaccine, that this young person broke down. But then they said, :"Okay. Let's do it, let's stick with it." So what is it about university students, do you think, that they are inclined to take part in this kind of science?

MB: Yeah, I mean, I can't speak for all university students, but I certainly think a big part of it, and especially with this age group, it's a really transformative part of people's lives is going to university. And I think there's this really big desire to sort of get back to normal, whatever, and what normal looks like. And I think maybe a lot of students kind of want to be part of this historical thing and also helping get back to normal. And for me personally, I know that the science is really important to me. And as much as I want things to get back to normal, I also am really interested in these sort of secondary questions that are being asked in these sorts of trials and also in a group that has a lower risk than older adults or something.

CO: So you were one of the earliest volunteers in what is a massive study, 20 colleges, including yours in Boulder, Colorado taking part in this to answer some pretty basic questions, right, not just about your age group. But also many people are wondering if they've been vaccinated and so they have this immunity to the virus itself, whether or not they could still spread it, whether or not you could still transmit the virus to other people unwittingly, even though you didn't get sick -- and so that's what they wanted to find out, right?

MB: Yes. Yeah, exactly.

CO: And so what do you have to do to help them find that out?

MB: Yeah. Well, part of it is, you know, your daily questionnaire about yourself and daily swabbing of your nose and bi-weekly COVID tests through the university. And then they're also asking for people who are sort of in your inner circle, who they're also tracking. And so for me, I'm mostly just seeing my colleagues and then one close friend of mine who is part of that close contact.

CO: And what about your family? What do they think about you taking part in the study?

MB: [Chuckles] They're all for it. I will say my my dad did text me last week and told me I should go get a vaccination, they're available in Colorado. And I was like, I know, but I'm part of this clinical trials. So I think they understand. But they are a little not sceptical of the vaccine, but sceptical that I'm sticking with it.

CO: But at the same time, they are looking to see what happens with someone who within your bubble, whether or not you can transmit the virus or get it. And so doesn't that make you a bit concerned you could get vaccinated and maybe protecting those around you from getting sick?

MB: Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's certainly part of it. But I think it's pretty difficult still to find a place where you can get a vaccine in Colorado because so many people are trying to jump on it. So as a healthy young person, I'm kind of okay with being a little patient and letting people who really feel vulnerable and might have more of an essential worker job where they're seeing way more people every day. And I can limit my risk and my friend's risk by wearing a mask daily and limiting contact with a lot of people, avoiding large groups and things like that.

CO: We have talked to other young people who have done similar things to what you're doing, that they've just decided that in the interest of science and interest of being good citizens that they would take part in these kinds of trials just because that's the right thing to do. Is that part of your motivation?

MB: Yeah. I mean, I think there's a really huge social responsibility in vaccines in general. I mean, herd immunity is really important and understanding how that works. And so if I can be part of something that helps the greater good over time, then I certainly want to be part of that. And I think that's a responsibility that we have in society.

CO: Well you answer a very important question for so many people that once we're vaccinated, can we get rid of the mask? Can we get back to normal? And so this is really crucial what they're investigating. But when do you think you can actually go and get vaccinated?

MB: Yeah. So from what I've been told, I think July is about when I will be done with doing the daily swabs and all that and I'll actually be able to get a vaccine.

CO: All right. And we'll be able to get the results of your trials. So that's good.

MB: Exactly.

CO: Madden I appreciate what you're doing and I appreciate speaking with you as well. Thank you.

MB: Yes. Thank you so much.

CH: Madden Brewster is a 24 year old PhD student in the integrative vascular biology lab at the University of Colorado. We reached her in Boulder.

[Music: Piano Music]

C1 Note

CH: If you sit down at a piano and look to your left, you'll find the C1 note, it's way down in the last octave of the 88 keys. It is the lowest C note on the piano and not one that you would ever attempt to sing unless you're Joy Chapman.

[SOUND: JOY CHAPMAN HITTING THE LOWEST C NOTE (C1)]

CH: That was Joy Chapman hitting the lowest C note on a piano. That recording just earned the Surrey, BC singer a Guinness World Record for lowest female vocal note. This morning, she spoke with the CBC about her new low and why she thinks she can go even lower.

JOY CHAPMAN: [SOUNDCLIP: We have it down to C1 but it actually hit a B0. But that's not as low as I go. I can actually on a good day hit an E0 20Hz. So that was far from my record.

CHRIS WALKER: Wow. [Laughter] How is it that you can do that?

JOY CHAPMAN: Science actually really doesn't know yet, but they're looking into it. [Laughs] They theorised hyper mobility syndrome in my local larynx and so I'm able to lower it further than most humans.

CHRIS WALKER: And so, you know, talking at your speaking voice is obviously kind of "normal sounding." What's your range in octaves?

JOY CHAPMAN: Well we have recorded me as high as a C10 going into the whistle range. My normal scaling is usually between an F6 and an E6 down to -- I mean, I usually scale from the one end of the piano kind of down to the end of the piano and then off but you know. [Laughs]

CHRIS WALKER: Wow. How is it that you came to know that this was a world record that could be broken?

JOY CHAPMAN: That was my niece's fault. [Chuckles] I was teaching them vocal lessons. And my vocal teachers over the years always got freaked out whenever I went down. And actually when I was living up in Vernon in choir, I used to get put into the male section because they were low on male singers, so singing also tenor bass. And so she went looking at the world record and she's like, "Oh yay, it's only at a D2. You start your singing scales way lower than that." [Laughs] So then we just decided that I'd put in for the world record.]

CH: That was Joy Chapman speaking with Daybreak South host Chris Walker today. The Surrey, BC singer just broke a Guinness World Record for the lowest note sung by a female.

[Music: Guitar Music]

Part 3: Laurentian Profs Terminated

Laurentian Profs Terminated

Guest: Nadia Verrelli

CH: On Twitter, one professor wrote that he was gutted and distraught for his students and for the 100-plus colleagues who, like him, had been terminated a single day. There's been no shortage of stories from faculty members since Laurentian University cut dozens of its programs yesterday. The school says 11 graduate programs and 58 undergraduate programs have been closed, including dozens of French language programs. In February, the Sudbury, Ontario university said it would be seeking creditor protection. And now the Ontario government is facing criticism that it hasn't done enough. Nadia Verrelli lost her job yesterday. She's an associate professor in the Department of Political Science and we reached her in Sudbury, Ontario.

CO: Professor Verrelli, how are you handling this news?

NADIA VERRELLI: Well, I've had better days, but I'm handling it as best I can right now.

CO: Did you see this coming for yourself?

NV: To this extent, no. We knew cuts were coming. I didn't think that they would cut the Department of Political Science or our program in political science. So I was surprised when I heard the news.

CO: But some of the program and the departments, I mean, the Faculty of Arts is basically gutted, right?

NV: Yes. The ones that are concerning -- well, they're all concerning: the political science, philosophy, the midwifery program was cut and that was especially heartbreaking because Laurentian had the only program in the north and it serviced the communities here in the north, as well as the French midwifery program was the only program in French outside of Quebec. So that's a huge blow. Other programs will hurt, I believe the university -- and the sciences, physics and maths were cut as well. The School of Environment was cut. So the cuts were drastic.

CO: How would you characterise the way that Laurentian actually told you and the others that you'd be out of a job?

NV: It wasn't very good, it was very cold, and abrupt. A lot of us were left humiliated and confused in the way we were told and how we were told.

CO: So this is not just taking a financial toll, it's taking an emotional one as well?

NV: Oh without a doubt. We have people, myself included, where we've devoted our lives to academia. We devoted a good portion of our life here at Laurentian, and we've made commitments to move to northern Ontario, to Sudbury, to start a life here and to hear this news delivered so suddenly -- it was devastating. And I agree it's not just financial. It's the ties to the community that we've harnessed over the years, it's the friends that we've made, it's the family that we started raising here in Sudbury. So it's life altering, to say the least.

CO: You touched on something very important here, because Laurentian University is unique in so many ways, isn't it? I mean, where it is in the north, what communities it was serving. Just give us a sense of what's at stake here.

NV: Well Laurentian, from my understanding, is the only university with a bilingual and tricultural mandate. Outside of Quebec, northern Ontario has the most French speaking, and we service as community as well as the Indigenous communities. And the cuts to the programs that we saw yesterday will hurt disproportionately those two communities as well. It will hurt women and the advancement that we've made in the study of gender and tackling inequalities and tackling violence against women. That opportunity now has been sidelined.

CO: But is it fair to say a large number of Indigenous students had an opportunity to get a secondary education in their communities because that university was there?

NV: Yes, I can safely say that. And that's one thing we uniquely offered here in Sudbury is to service the community, service members and partners in this community. And a lot of students will now have to rethink their plans for post-secondary education.

CO: And this would also be true of Franco Ontario students.

NV: Absolutely. It really does limit the opportunity to be educated and to work in your first language.

CO: The university's president said that in spite of the heaviness that we feel today and the complexities of the challenges, he said, I have faith that Laurentian University will continue in order to serve our community and educate future generations of talent from northern Ontario and beyond. Do you think that's true?

NV: I hope so. I still have faith in the Laurentian community. Despite the actions in the last few days and in the last few months, what has remained trenchant is a committed faculty, committed support staff, and a committed student body. But the programs that were cut were programs that service the community just as much as the programs that were not cut. And so there will be rebuilding. And I hope, despite my safe here at Laurentian, I hope it does survive and I hope it does continue to serve the community.

CO: Many people are saying that the Ontario government should have stepped in well in advance of this, that they knew what was going on, they could see what was happening to the university, that it was in a financial freefall. Some are even calling for the minister of colleges and universities to resign. What do you think the province, what responsibility does it need to take for what happened?

NV: And here I'm going to put the responsibility on both orders of government. In Canada, one of our values is access to public education. And the silence of both orders of government, I think was an affront to this commitment to public education. I do think the Ontario government should be funding not just Laurentian, but they should be funding universities more than they have. I do think the federal government with its commitments to bilingualism and its commitment to the recommendations of the TRC, should have stepped up. If, as Canadians, we value public education then our governments need to answer the call

CO: When you say TRC, that's the Truth and Reconciliation Commission whose recommendations included better Indigenous programming at the post-secondary level. I just want to ask you just finally on a personal note, you've been there for seven years, you have some roots that I'm sure you put down. Do you think you're going to have to move away from Sudbury?

NV: It's something my partner and I are discussing. And it's in the horizon. I don't know what my next steps will be. [voice softens] But if my future endeavour includes a continuing career in academia, we will have to move, yes.

CO: Professor Verrelli, I'm sorry all this is happening to you and the others and to the university. I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

NV: Thank you Carol.

CH: Nadia Verrelli is one of approximately 100 faculty members who were terminated from Laurentian University yesterday. She spoke to us from Sudbury, Ontario.

[Music: Synth Music]

Elbakri Siblings

CH: For Muslims across Canada, today marks the beginning of another Ramadan at home. In one sense, the isolation provides more time for reflection. But of course, it's also been tough without community. In Winnipeg, before COVID, the Elbakri siblings would go to their local mosque to break their fast at sunset and to pray into the night. While they missed that time spent with their friends, they've found a way to bring that experience home with a makeshift mosque in their spare room. Eleven year old Abdulghani Elbakri and his sister Mei spoke about their plans for this month.

ABDULGHANI ELBAKRI: [SOUNDCLIP: Ramadan means that special month to me because it's the only month that I get to kind of self reflect because it's like no other month. You eat before dawn and after sunset and you have the whole day to kind of reflect and be nice. I am 11, almost 12. I think this will be my third year doing a full day fast. I mean, at the beginning it's always hard. I myself once broke the fast early because I couldn't handle it. It didn't feel good. It's always fun to break the fast with the whole family. There's so many activities we do. Like last year we built our own mini mosque in our house because the mosque were closed due to COVID and we've done like design-your-own-room for Ramadan and we had like a whole big contest. So we do a lot of stuff during Ramadan that's family based. And I just love that.

MEI ELBAKRI: Like my brother said, Ramadan teaches you perseverance. Like sometimes it gets tough when you're really hungry, you feel really down. But then you're like, I'm going to keep going. Like it teaches you perseverance. And yeah, like you just feel it's a big accomplishment to finish every year. Usually we would have gatherings with our friends. We'd break our fast with our friends. We didn't have that last year or this year. But personally, during Ramadan, I'm kind of like my dad -- I don't really want to go anywhere, I just want to stay home and do nothing. The mosque -- well, we cut out a piece of cardboard to resemble like a dome shaped like we coloured the bottom altogether. We printed out a bunch of designs. We made these towers on either side and made it out of cardboard. So we put those two and we put some prayer mats and we made a board that had 30 days on it and we would have these little stars and we'd put them on every day once we're done. And we had the Quran on a table next to them. And it was like a really nice chill area. Like I just go there all the time and just sit down and relax. It was really nice.]

CH: That was Abdulghani Elbakri and his sister Mei in Winnipeg. They spoke with the CBC's Stephanie Cram yesterday.

[Music: Guitar Music]

Anti-Mask Protests

Guest: Jim Bradley

CH: This past weekend, a thousand people gathered in St. Catharines, Ontario, to protest against COVID lockdowns, including the provincial stay-at-home order they were clearly violating. And amongst those who addressed the crowd was an elected official, Mayor Dave Bylsma mayor of nearby West Lincoln. Speaking without a mask, Mayor Bylsma mayor repeated false claims about the virus and led the crowd in a chant of "No more lockdowns." Since then, the mayor has been censured by his local council and faced serious criticism from other local leaders, including Niagara Regional Chair Jim Bradley. We reached Mr. Bradley in Thorold, Ontario.

CO: Mr. Bradley, how did you react when you learnt that your fellow councillor, Dave Bylsma, had spoken at that rally?

JIM BRADLEY: Well, I was extremely disappointed because, of course, the provincial rule is that there's no more than five people supposed to be gathering together outside. There's a stay at home order unless there's a very good reason for being out. There are rules towards distancing and wearing masks. And all of those were rules that were not followed at this particular demonstration. So I was very concerned, as were the overwhelming members of regional council, that one of our councillors would attend and actually participate as a speaker in this demonstration.

CO: And as you mentioned that the West Lincoln Town Council voted yesterday to remove Dave Bylsma from the emergency operations centre, his role there -- he is no longer allowed to participate in COVID related press releases. What difference will that make?

JB: That will make a difference and that he will be, of course, excluded from certain decision making. Something similar has taken place with regional council a couple of weeks ago, a few weeks ago, where he was banned from being on certain committees and was reprimanded by council as well for comments he had made regarding some other matters related to Black Lives Matter and simply other matters which were he commented on in a radio program. So this is not the first time that there's been a reprimand. Nevertheless, this is entirely different. This is not simply expressing a viewpoint, no matter how outlandish or lacking in reality that some people may consider a comment to be or speech to be -- the real problem is the breaking of the law. When the province passes a law and the local municipality has bylaws, we all expect I think as elected representatives to comply with those bylaws and laws. And that was a great concern that I have, and I think members of the council have and many in the public have at the choice that Councillor Bylsma made to attend and address the rally.

CO: Do you think he should resign?

JB: That's a position he will have to decide himself. Certainly there are many people in council who are very concerned that he has taken this particular course of action, but that's a decision that he's going to have to make himself. We shall see what regional council decides at its next meeting. There may well be a regional council, something coming forward from a member of council or from the public asking that certain action be taken against Councillor Bylsma, but that remains to be seen what that should be and I think we will want to see all the information and evidence before a final decision is made on whatever course of action is chosen.

CO: Has he broken laws? Should he be charged?

JB: Well, that's up for the police and by-law enforcement officers to determine who are both representatives -- Niagara Regional Police and local by law enforcement officers present. They are assessing what they have seen and will make a decision as to whether they will be pressing charges or levying a fine against any of the participants that, of course, we as elected people cannot instruct them to do that. But the fact that they were there and were observing and have indicated that they are assessing the situation means that there might well be charges laid or fines levied.

CO: As you said elsewhere, that you believe he deliberately ignored the ongoing state of emergency, that he had himself declared as one of Niagara's mayors. So...

JB: So, yes, some time ago, all of the 12 local mayors of the local municipalities within the region municipality of Nagara and I, as the chair of the region, declared a state of emergency. And under that -- and also we passed a mask bylaw, and we have certainly given recommendations to the public on social distancing handwashing and all those kinds of things. And what happened at that rally, according to media reports and personal reports of people indicated, in fact, you know, those things did not happen. And so I think it quite serious when we pass these laws, we declare a state of emergency and then there's defiance of those laws. It is one thing to express views -- as I say, people may disagree with those views and certainly I do and many of his prescriptions for COVID-19. But it's another thing to actually flout the laws that are there in place to protect the public good and public health.

CO: Well, just to point out, these are not just views. These are fallacies, right? So what responsibilities do you think he has to actually retract some of these statements?

JB: Well, I think it's important for anyone in elected office to base their views that they express on the science, the legitimate science, and to echo those as opposed to coming up with some very far out theories about what will solve COVID-19 or what's causing it or how serious it is. Clearly, if we look around at our local hospitals, but hospitals across the province, if we look at the dramatic increase in cases locally and across the province, if we look at the number of people in intensive care units of hospitals, all those factors point to the fact that this is an extremely serious disease. The number of people who have died is actually appalling. And we've had well over 300 in the Niagara region who have died from this and others, of course, who are still feeling the effects of this disease. So I think it's important for all of us to look at the evidence and the mainstream evidence that's out there and base our views and express our views based on that instead of some far out conspiracies.

CO: We'll leave it there. Mr. Bradley thank you.

JB: Thank you very much.

CH: Jim Bradley is the regional chair of Niagara. We reached him in Thorold, Ontario.

[Music: Calm Music]

Reading: Pollinator

CH: Sophie McGowan really knows her ABCs emphasis on the bees. The Burnaby 12 year old is one of two winners of a CBC Books challenge that asked young readers to produce the first page of a novel set 150 years in the future. In her winning entry, Ms. McGowan takes on the problem of environmental degradation and habitat loss and hives off one fertile component: the demise of pollinators. The result is a submission that YA and children's author David A. Robertson called evocative, poetic, and succinct in his assessment as prize judge. Here's Sophie McGowan with her winning entry.

SOPHIE MCGOWAN: I try to wipe the powder off my fingers, but it only leaves a conspicuous yellow smear across my uniform. I walk over to the sink and carefully wash off the lemon-coloured dust caked on my hand. I take a slow and deliberate breath. People often underestimate the immense concentration that pollination demands.

When my break is over, I stretch a new mask across my face, covering my mouth and nose. I stroll outside and pick up my drone controls. The keys are slightly illuminated, but it's almost impossible to tell in the bright spring sun. I look out at the orderly rows of flowers, my eyes drifting over each vibrant bloom. Then I get to work.

My fingers dance across the controller, eyes fixed on the screen displaying the drone's view. I periodically look up to see it hovering above the flowers, a cloud of pollen accumulating below it as it collects the golden powder. I proceed to quickly but delicately fly it over the flowers of the neighbouring field, dispersing the pollen in quick bursts of yellow. Then I repeat. It's a time-consuming process, but we're told it's completely necessary. There used to be animals that would do this, but they're long gone now. I forget what they were called.

The drones are a brilliant yellow, with a single, thick black stripe down the centre. I see some other workers standing at the edge of the field too, wearing masks and dark sunglasses. Each operating their own striped drones. Watching them bounce from flower to flower reminds me of the delivery drones, dropping off packages and groceries to the residential units. The thought almost brings a smile to my face. People have always told me that I have a strange imagination.

The sun hangs low in the sky now. I land my drone in front of me and pick it up off the grass, carrying its sleek metal surface back to the storage unit. I hand it over to a man who then checks something off on his tablet. The B-keeper nods at me. I walk away.

As I'm walking, I turn my head and take one last glance back.

I wonder why they call the drones Bs.

But it doesn't matter. My imagination always tends to get the best of me.

CH: 12 year old Sophie McGowan reading Pollinator, her winning submission to the CBC's first page student writing competition in the grade seven to nine category. The grades ten to twelve winner was Calgary's Caris Simmons. And to read both entries, visit: cbcbooks.ca.

[Music: Synth Music]

Popcorn Salad

CH: Popcorn salad -- two words many believe should not be a phrase, let alone a food that people actually prepare and eat. But thanks to the Internet and a now viral video starring the Food Network's Molly Yeh, we now know two things about popcorn salad: it exists and people eat it and even love it. But also they hate it because, well, here.

MOLLY YEH: [SOUNDCLIP: I am making my snap pea and popcorn salad. And mine's got crunchy vegetables, tons of snappy popcorn, and it's held together with a mayo-ey dressing. The texture of the popcorn in the salad is so weirdly good, I just can't get enough of it.]

CH: Mayo-ey? I don't...okay just play more Molly Yeh.

MOLLY YEH: [SOUNDCLIP: Popcorn Salad is one of those classic Midwestern dishes that you would often find in a church basement potluck. And it's typically made of veggies, popcorn, and mayonnaise. I know some people who put fish in there's. And you don't think it's going to work, but then you taste it and it's a really good.]

CH: Fish?! The video has provoked some to attack the snack or salad or atrocity and others too staunchly defended. And who knows, maybe it's delicious. It sounds, you know, really high in fibre and like a bold juxtaposition of crunchy and soggy. Of course, really, it's no grosser than some of the other garish garnishes we seem willing to accept. Depending on where you are, you could walk into a store and come out with prepared popcorn's with marmite, pumpkin spice, ketchup, s'mores, buffalo wing and blue cheese, and something called pregnancy mix -- it's meant to taste like ice cream and dill pickle. The sheer range of which turns your stomach but also warms your heart. The endlessness of human inventiveness can get you feeling all mushy, like the bottom of a popcorn salad.

April 13, 2021 Episode Transcript

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