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The AIH Transcript for April 10, 2018

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello, I'm Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening. I'm Jeff Douglas. This is “As It Happens”.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight:

CO: Mark: his words. In Washington, Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg faces a gaggle of U.S. senators — who asked him to share data about how so many of the social network's users unknowingly share their data.

JD: Conspiracy to silence. New documents claim that the late war correspondent Marie Colvin wasn't just in the wrong place at the wrong time when she died — she was assassinated by the Assad regime.

CO: He was there — and part of him always will be. Lyle Moffat had just retired when he was called back to work after the Humboldt Broncos bus crash — and tonight, the Saskatchewan paramedic shares his harrowing memories of the scene.

JD: Burn after raiding. U.S. President Donald Trump is furious — all-caps tweets furious — after the FBI raids the offices of his attorney; and a lawyer tells us he's not wrong to be agitated.

CO: Taking issue — and then making issues. It was a struggle for African scientists to get their work published — now, there's a new pan-African journal that will give them a new, much-needed voice.

JD: And...I now mis-pronounce you... A contestant loses out on thousands in winnings on "Wheel of Fortune" when he proudly says the name of a feathered creature that stands on one leg — instead of a Spanish dance that involves both.

JD: As It Happens, the Tuesday edition. Radio that guesses he thought Vanna White had flipped him the bird.

[Music: Theme]

Part one: Facebook Senate hearing, Humboldt first responder, FBI Trump lawyer raid

Facebook Senate hearing

Guest: Roger McNamee

JD: It was the hottest ticket in Washington, D.C. today. In a packed Senate hearing room, Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg answered questions about how tens of millions of users' data was allowed to be improperly shared with a UK company called Cambridge Analytica. Here is part of an exchange between Senator Dick Durbin and Mr. Zuckerberg.

SOUNDCLIP

DICK DURBIN: Mr. Zuckerberg, would you be comfortable sharing with us the name of the hotel you stayed in last night?

MARK ZUCKERBERG: No.

DD: If you messaged anybody this week, would you share with us the names of the people you've messaged?

MZ: Senator, no I would probably not choose to do that publicly here.

DD: I think that maybe what this is all about: your right to privacy, the limits of your right to privacy, and how much you give away in modern America in the name of, quote, “connecting people around the world”. The question basically of what information Facebook's collecting, who they're sending it to, and whether they were asking me in advance my permission to do that. Is that a fair thing for a user of Facebook to expect?

MZ: Yes, Senator, I think everyone should have control over how their information is used. Every day people come to our services to choose to share photos or send messages. And every single time they choose to share something, they have a control right there about who they want to share it with.

JD: That was Facebook CEO Mark Zuckeberg answering a question from U.S. Senator Dick Durbin at a hearing today. Roger McNamee is a managing director at the venture capitalist firm Elevation Partners, he was an early investor in Facebook. We reached him in New York.

CO: Mr. McNamee, today's hearings were arguably Mark Zuckerberg biggest test as Facebook CEO ever. Did he pass?

ROGER MCNAMEE: I think that Mark's performance was fine. And I don't think he harmed himself grievously in that. I also think that his performance really says nothing about whether Facebook's situation is good or bad now. I think the sad thing is that it's a business based on trust, and the company has systematically undermined the trust of every constituency in its orbit from users to advertisers to the governments it interacts with. And I don't think there was anything Mark could have done today or can do tomorrow in front of Congress to take away the overhanging anger, fear, and just appropriate levels of distrust that have built up because of the revelations of the last few months.

CO: It's quite interesting how Senator Durbin approached in that clip we just heard when he asks very simply: would you tell us the name of the hotel you stayed in last night? And the Pause is just filled with laughter and shock because we're asked to do that all the time, aren't we?

RM: And we're often raided for information without even realizing it. You know one of the places where Zuckerberg was least candid was in the section about the ways that Facebook tracks you when you're not even on Facebook’s application. You know it has relationships with many other sites around the web where it either does authentication the way and or it has deals where they put trackers, so they can keep track of users wherever they go — even off of Facebook. And that is something they have done without providing appropriate informed consent to each user. And that's the conversation we have to have right now.

CO: So I'm hearing you speak as a citizen, as a consumer, but as an investor, those who are invested in Facebook this is way to make a lot of money, isn't it? I mean this was the whole point was to be able to harvest this data and sell it to the highest bidder and make a pile of cash. Did he not satisfy at least his investors?

RM: Well, I think clearly investors have been incredibly happy with the results. But I think even investors do not know about the costs of that success. And I think, for better or worse, they're going to lose the primacy that they've had in you know validating Facebook's behaviour. You know I think investors really have been the only one whose voice has been heard. And it seems to me likely that we're now going to political processes and that users voices are going to be heard for the first time. And I don't know what that's going to produce. What I know is that Facebook is so large today that it cannot possibly deliver the appropriate level of care with respect to user data, with respect to political interference, with respect to public health the kinds of things that are absolutely necessary if you're going to have a civil society.

CO: As far as Mr. Zuckerberg’s obligations to investors and to those who made a lot of money from it he says that the problem was that his company was too idealistic — that he just underestimated the threat from bad actors like those who tried to influence the U.S. elections, like Cambridge Analytica and that breach. He just was unsuspecting of all the bad people who were out there looking for ways to exploit his work. What do you say to that?

RM: I would respond by saying that Facebook blindly and relentless pursuit growth at all costs. And frankly ignoring lots of data might have suggested that that path was inappropriate. And I look at this and say this is a company whose motto was move fast and break things. There was a second part of the motto, which I edit because I think it reflects the truth which is: move fast, break things, apologize, and then pretend like nothing ever happened. And that has been their repeated mantra for 14 years. And if they get away with it again this time it seems to me that you know we have to worry about the future of democracy. That we have to worry about you know the future of you know the economy.

CO: And that's what's interesting is that he’s there; he’s kind of shuffling his feet cap in hand. Gosh golly, we're really sorry, it won't happen again, and we've got to move on. Do you think that's going to satisfy the Congress or lawmakers or anybody?

RM: I hope not. You know it is a very, very difficult problem that they have created for the whole world. And it's going to take way more than the U.S. Congress to solve it. The Europeans have a really good first step with the global data protection regulation. And my great hope is that the U.S. and Canada and other countries will go to GDPR and begin an actual regime of having a Bill of Rights for personal privacy.

CO: All right, we'll leave it there. Mr. McNamee, I appreciate speaking with you again. Thank you.

RM: It's always a pleasure. And I just want to say hello to everybody in Canada, and just say I look forward to seeing you soon.

CO: All right, OK. Bye bye.

JD: Roger McNamee was an early investor in Facebook. We reached him in New York City.

[Music: Ambient]

Humboldt first responder

Guest: Lyle Moffatt

JD: By now, you'll have seen the photographs: the trailer truck flipped on its side, bags of peat moss scattered all around; the bus with its roof torn off, front end destroyed. It's a terrible image. But what first responders came upon on Friday was, obviously, much, much worse. And now, it's hard for them to move on from what they've seen. Lyle Moffatt is a retired paramedic in Nipawin, Saskatchewan. He went back to work when a tractor-trailer and the Humboldt Bronco's team bus collided. We reached Mr. Moffatt in Nipawin.

CO: Lyle, how are you holding up?

LYLE MOFFATT: You know it's better than day-to-day. But you know as a paramedic of 32 years, this was the worst accident for me. It's unfortunate that I have a close second, third, fourth, you know? I don't anticipate this is going to leave me quickly or leave my mind even in the future.

CO: you had just retired when the accident happened, right?

LM: Yes, six days. So I had just passed the service over to my superintendent, Jessica Brost, and I was not turning back. I was excited about my new challenges that lay ahead of me.

CO: And then you found out about the accident, right?

LM: Yeah, we were actually were holding a fundraiser event for our community. We had three paramedics that were at the event prior to it starting. And there is a fireman, and his pager had gone off, and he just said I have to go, there's a big accident, and away he went. Naturally, for me, my instinct is I'm heading out too, I don't need to be called. But the better me prevailed and said No, it's not my point anymore; I'm in my retirement. So how social media goes, within probably ten minutes, we found out that it actually was the Humboldt Broncos hockey team that has been in a collision with a transport-truck, possibly 30 patients. So I had phoned the new owner of service, Jessica, and asked if she needed any help. And she never answered her cell phone, which is highly unusual for her not to answer me.

CO: You knew something was up then?

LM: I knew something was up, so I immediately went to our headquarters in Nipawin. And when I walked into the ambulance bay, there's usually six ambulances sitting there, and there was there was none. So I jumped in the truck, and I headed out.

CO: When you got to the scene, what did you need to do at that point? I mean there were so many people. What was the first urgent thing that had to be done?

LM: Well, lots of times when a paramedic pulls up to the scene we do a quick analysis. And right away I knew this was a catastrophic event. I've never been to war, but I would say this would be feeling like it was a war zone. My heart sank. I knew that there would be many, many injured patients and fatalities.

CO: And you knew what you know is the Humboldt Broncos. You knew these were going to be boys — young men. This team was going to be there.

LM: That's right. And you know in Saskatchewan or any other community, you have hockey, right? And hockey is our life. And these Humboldt Bronco kids were come into play Nipawin in the playoffs. And these kids are our kids. Doesn’t matter if they're Nipawin or Humboldt or Melford, they're all our kids.

CO: You said that you've seen so many things and over the decades that you have worked, and had to cope with a lot. Is this one different?

LM: This one's different because of the scale. Loss of life is tough to handle as you get older. You know when I was young, I was eager to get out. And sometimes you go to a scene where a family is completely wiped out — a family of six members. You realize as you as you get older that you can’t pack it away anymore. I remember at one point we were told that we had to see a psychologist. And when we went and saw the psychologist, they said OK, tell us your story. And I said I don't have a story. And they said well you're a paramedic, you see bad things, how do you deal with it? And I said I put them all in boxes in the back of my head, and I don't need you touching them. This scene is a little different. This is 15 young men that had lots to offer. It's going to be a little more difficult for me going out of my career.

CO: Will you get the counselling?

LM: We have started already. My old staff, which were there, it was interesting to hear like when you leave the scene I’m thinking of what I saw. How bad this. But when you sit there and you talk about what you saw, and then you listen to the next person, and you hear what they saw. Then you start to add it all up. And it was at that moment that we all you know half of us are male. There's veterans, police officers, and you know I said I was embarrassed to cry. But we know that's a natural and natural reaction and that we should. We try to be tough. You know when somebody it’s their worst emergency in their life we have to be the strong one for them. But this story isn't about us first responders. This story is about a hockey team that lost 15 young men. You know our hearts go out to the families, the Humboldt Broncos, and the other people of Saskatchewan and Canada that are mourning over this. We empathize with them.

CO: Lyle, I want to thank you so much for being there. The work you people did was so important. And thank you for that.

LM: Yes, we got a call from the Royal University Hospital one of the surgeons there, and they just said that if it wasn't for the interaction and the quick response from us that the fatality count would have been a lot higher. And again, that's part of the healing that we need to know that we did some good.

CO: I'm glad you're there for those people, Lyle.

LM: Well, thank you very much. And again, my heart goes out to the family of the players and the team itself.

CO: We hear you. Thank you.

LM: Night

JD: We reached Lyle Moffatt in Nipawin, Saskatchewan.

[Music: Sad violin]

FBI Trump lawyer raid

Guest: Mark Zaid

JD: The way U.S. President Donald Trump characterizes it, the FBI "broke into" his lawyer's office as part of a "witch hunt." Most lawyers watching the raid on Michael Cohen's office yesterday saw it differently. They say it was legal. And that it has the potential to be highly damaging to the president. Mark Zaid is a Washington lawyer who defends clients on national security files. We reached him in New York.

CO: Mr. Zaid, there was another lawyer who described his raid on Michael Cohen's office described it as like dropping a bomb on Trump's front porch. How would you characterize it?

MARK ZAID: This goes to the heart of everything a client fears most. When your inner sanctum can be pierced, and attorneys, bartenders, barbers, priests, rabbis, whatever you want to talk about it — these are people like myself who know our clients dirtiest secrets. So if I were Donald Trump, I'd be concerned right now.

CO: And Mr. Trump seemed very rattled yesterday. Not just the tweets, which we've come to expect, but he talked all days off and on the record about this raid. He described it as a disgraceful situation. Does he have a point?

MZ: No, I don't think at all. This is a process. It is very, very rare for attorneys to either be pulled before a grand jury as actually, I was once for a client's case or to have their offices especially raided where attorney-client privilege may be pierced. But the fact of the matter is there is a process in place that goes through multiple layers of people up through the Justice Department. And in this case, to a federal judge as well to approve it. This is actually how the democratic system works whether one likes it or not.

CO: So when Mr. Trump says that the FBI broke into Michael Cohen's office, how many people would have signed off on this raid?

MZ: Quite a number. I mean all the way up to as we're hearing possibly the deputy attorney general. But more precisely, a federal judge would have signed off. So to say that the FBI broke into the office the hotel room is just to paint a picture for his political base. Because that's not how the process works at all. This was a lawful warrant search. Now, whether or not information that is recovered can be admissible or used against the president? Time will tell. But at the very least and, obviously, there will be grounds possibly for a challenge to the warrant later on by Cohen or someone else if it's attorney-client privileged information. But the bottom line is this was a lawful search.

CO: So what was the relationship between Mr. Trump and Michael Cohen? What would Mr. Cohen have on file or know about Mr. Trump that would be of interest to the FBI?

MZ: Well, he's himself been said that he was the fixer for Donald Trump. And he has been working as far as we can tell through the Trump organization for most of the last 10-11 years. And every time there was a problem that Donald Trump was experiencing with individuals, Michael Cohen would go and fix it. So he would have access to all that type of information. And, of course, what is the forefront of most people's mind is this perceived or alleged relationship with Stormy Daniels, and whether or not this pay off of $130,000 was done as part of some sort of quid pro quo or FEC election violation or possibly in violation of banking laws or fraud. There's a whole number of things that can be looked at. And whether or not Michael Cohen did that with the knowledge of the president of the United States will come into play. And if it was illegal in any way, then that pierces the attorney-client privilege.

CO: We heard from Mr. Trump; he was talking to reporters last week. He said that he did not know Michael Cohen had arranged the payment of 130,000 dollars to Stormy Daniels. And he said he didn't know where Mr. Cohen got the money and didn't have any answers about Mr. Cohen in that regard. So what would again the FBI look for to perhaps connect Mr. Trump to this payment?

MZ: Well, one of the arguments that people have been saying to explain that this could pierce the privilege would be the fact that both Cohen and Donald Trump have denied that each other knew about the fact that this payment was made — meaning that Trump didn't know that Michael Cohen was paying Stormy Daniels. There actually could be an attorney-client privilege still in place depending on what the documents might show. And the FBI will use different teams of agents and investigators to comb through the files to make sure that no privileged justifiable privileged information is provided to the actual prosecutors and investigators working on the case. But if it goes the way some are suspecting that this was an illegal payoff, then it may fall on Cohen's shoulders individually. But it will depend on what the evidence shows to say whether or not it could tie back to Donald Trump.

CO: And what it also looked at as to whether it ties back to Robert Mueller’s investigation — the special counsel's investigation — into whether there was collusion between the Trump campaign and the Russians. So how does a payment a stormy Daniels possibly figure into Mr. Mueller’s investigation?

MZ: Well, Mueller has a very broad range. And it's as he's investigating the core allegations of Russian collusion, if he comes across something else that may be illegal, he can get permission. And so far as we know, Rod Rosenstein, the deputy attorney general, has signed off on every request that Mueller has made to go forward. Now, the biggest concern Donald Trump might have may actually not be what the FBI was searching for in its warrant when it raided his lawyer’s premises, but actually what the FBI finds. Because I have seen in cases where the government has targeted my client looking for some evidence of a particular crime, and it turns out they find a completely different crime in its place. So anything the FBI finds if it is not privileged is going to be susceptible for its use by the prosecutors regardless of whether it was related to the warrants or not. Because at the end of the day, if there is criminal activity, the Justice Department is supposed to pursue it, especially against senior government officials up to and including and especially the president of the United States.

CO: All right, we will be following this story. Mr. Zaid, thank you.

MZ: Thank you.

CO: Bye.

MZ: Mark Zaid is a Washington lawyer. He defends clients on national security files. We reached him in New York.

[Music: Spanish guitar and percussive]

Wheel of Fortune

JD: If you've ever watched "Wheel of Fortune", you'll know that moment: there are just a few blank letter spaces left, and suddenly, the mystery phrase on the board becomes clear to you. You shout it out with confidence, because you know with 100 per cent certainty you've solved the puzzle. That happens to most of us at home. On last night's show, it happened to a contestant named Jonny. He'd figured out all the letters. All he had to do was read out the phrase on the board. But that proved difficult, and a fellow contestant had to do it for him — properly.

SOUNDCLIP

JONNY: “F”.

HOST: There you go. That’s another thousand dollars. What do you want to do next?

JONNY: “M”.

HOST: uh huh, and last but not least?

JONNY: “D”.

HOST: Let's put it up there, Vanna. Carefully, what’s up there?

JONNY: Flamingo dance lessons.

HOST: Sorry. Ashley, It's your turn.

ASHLEY: Flamenco dance lessons.

HOST: Yeah, that's it. There we go, she's got it. So to explain, what we all heard was, and I know you mean to say it, but you gave us a “” instead of a “C”. But we'll look at things and make sure we did things correctly during our commercial. But that's the way it's been heard everywhere. You get the thousand dollars. We will take a break… oh no, we won’t. We’re going to talk about this prize puzzle. And then you're going to Spain.

ASHLEY: Oh my god!

JD: That was a clip from "Wheel of Fortune", the episode that aired last night. Jonny, of course, said "flamingo," instead of "flamenco". It cost him more than seven thousand bucks.

Part two: Marie Colvin Syria lawsuit, Scientific Africa journal

Marie Colvin Syria lawsuit

Guest: Cat Colvin

JD: Marie Colvin was known for her fearless reporting — and her black eye patch. Ms. Colvin was a journalist for the Sunday Times. She was covering the civil war in Syria. She was even a guest on this program. In February of 2012, she was killed when a rocket hit a makeshift media centre in the city of Homs. Now, new details have come out about her death. Newly unsealed documents allege that Ms. Colvin was assassinated by the Syrian regime. And she wasn't the only journalist targeted. The civil suit was filed by the Center for Justice and Accountability, on behalf of Marie's sister, Cat Colvin. It is the first war-crimes case against the Syrian government to reach the courts. We reached Cat Colvin in Oyster Bay, New York.

CO: Ms. Colvin, these are remarkable documents that had been released by the courts. What story do they tell about your sister's death?

CAT COLVIN: Well, it was clear to me from the beginning after speaking to Paul Conroy, who you may recall was injured with Marie, that she was targeted. Paul could hear the artillery bracketing them, which is a different kind of sound. The challenge was proving it. And the Centre for Justice and Accountability has spent literally years interviewing defectors, refugees, and experts in the field to collect evidence, which makes it extremely clear that the Assad regime marshalled all of their political, security, and military apparatus to target the journalists. Not only Marie but to really silence the news and prevent the truth from getting out.

CO: There was a statement that has been revealed that was made by Syrian Major General Rafiq shahadah, who said — and I'm sure this is disturbing to you because it’s about your sister — Marie Colvin was a dog, and now she's dead, let the Americans help her now.

CC: Yeah, that was the hardest part of the evidence for me to read honestly because I really adored my sister. The lawsuit part of the motivation obviously was very personal. I was just angry at her being taken away from me and my family. But reading that celebration, and imagining them laughing and jeering, getting rewarded even with cars for the successful attack, you really hit the most difficult part of the testimony for me to absorb.

CO: I'm so sorry. She was for so many people an inspiration because of how courageous she was. She was able to get into Homs through an underground water tunnel in 2012 is when her final days of reporting are. And you can just tell that people may remember some of these images and stories she his time. What was she reporting out of Baba Amr?

CC: You know ironically, they used her satellite signal on the last night of her life. She was reporting on the targeted attacks on civilians, and in particular, you know a little baby who was dying in the hospital. There were images coming out from civilian journalists, and Marie reported that you know no matter what you're hearing from the Assad regime he is targeting civilians. As important as she was to me, she was such an important voice for the innocent victims of war. That's what she cared most about, and that's what she was reporting on.

CO: Her last reports on BBC and CNN saying — this is a quote — “Syrian forces are shelling with impunity and a merciless disregard for the civilians who simply cannot escape.” And as you say, she was able to dispatch images from hospitals from a shelter called the Widows’ Basement. But her signal was what you’re saying what ultimately drew the fire to her. Can you tell us about that?

CC: Yeah, that's right. They intercepted the satellite signal; she was on a satellite phone. That was not the only way they targeted her. They were surveilling her from before she even went into Syria — Marie and the other foreign journalists. They also had informants on the ground, including a woman who was stationed out outside of the you know sort of makeshift media centre that was set up in Homs. And that was also shocking to me because Marie was always such a strong supporter of women. Not only women journalists, but girls and young women in all walks of life, so to have her betrayed you know the last piece of evidence was a woman standing outside the media centre who indicated that Marie and others were there.

CO: The evidence has been gathered. And it principally supports or is provided by an agency defector — a Syrian code named Ulysses. Can you tell us about him?

CC: I am so impressed at his testimony, and also that you know Scott Gilmore from the Center for Justice and Accountability was able to locate this defector. And his testimony is very powerful. You know I can only assume that he went to great risk in sharing it with Scott. And I’m very grateful.

CO: We don't know his identity, and I can hear in your answer you're helping to guard that anonymity. But he did file documents or documents have been filed that corroborate what he has to say. Can you tell us a bit of what is in the depositions that have been filed in court?

CC: Well, what's so interesting is that you know the Syrians are very bureaucratic. And detail in meeting minutes and detailed documentation what's happening and what their priorities are. And he was in a position where he had access to a significant number of documents, which he was able to bring out of the country. You know they’re original documents showing that that, for example, the Syrian regime prioritized that targeting and silencing of the news as their highest goal. And then next, that the leaders of these peaceful rallies and opposition movements. And last, the participants. So this was a strategy, and he was able to smuggle out documentation that shows that it was a very intentional strategy.

CO: The court case that you are now involved in what are you hoping comes out of it?

CC: Well, one of the main goals, as I mentioned, was to get this evidence public, so that it can be used by others. And so that it can eventually be used in a criminal trial. I wanted to find justice for my sister you know on a personal level. And you know the suffering that I've felt and that my children and my mother have felt that is multiplied by thousands and thousands of Syrians. So an important part of this case is to bring attention to their continued suffering. I thought that Marie's murder would be some kind of a watershed event and that the U.S. government would find it intolerable for an American citizen to be targeted and murdered. But you know nothing has changed, so an important part of it for me is to keep attention on Syria. Now, Assad has obviously used chemical weapons and attacked his people again. It's ongoing. He's keeping himself in the news. Finally, as we talked a little bit about highlighting the risks that journalists take bringing this truth to us you know sitting in our in our comfortable living rooms reading the paper. But without them and without that firsthand you know on the scene reporting that Marie believed was so important, you can't have any freedom without a free press.

CO: Ms. Colvin, we'll be following this lawsuit. And I appreciate you speaking with us. Thank you.

CC: Thank you so much.

JD: Cat Colvin is the sister of journalist Marie Colvin, who was killed while reporting on the Syrian civil war in 2012. We reached Cat Colvin in Oyster Bay, New York. We have more on the story on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Ambient]

Scientific Africa journal

Guest: Rose Mutiso

JD: The backbone of scientific advancement is the journal — the scientific journal. Researchers publish their findings. That allows other scientists to learn about them and to improve. For scientists in Africa, getting published in a journal usually means — and mean — going to a journal outside the continent, which can be challenging, to say the least. But a new pan-African journal is hoping to change that. Scientific African hopes to provide a world-class venue for African scientists to publish their work on their own continent. Rose Mutiso is the CEO of the Mawazo institute, which supports scientific development in Africa. We reached Ms. Mutiso in Nairobi.

CO: Ms. Mutiso, what does it mean for Africa to have its own scientific journal?

ROSE MUTISO: So usually scientists from Africa and from most of the world, if you want to progress, you publish in the kind of mainstream journals that are kind of out of the West — the kind of well-known journal like the nature and the science and that kind of thing. And so it's very difficult if you're not part of this Western scholarly community to publish in those. So usually which institution you are from, the people you know, all of these tie into your access into that global network. And so I think there's a lot of good science and thinking in Africa that is walked out of that community because you're just not part of that network. You'll find exceptional Africans who are in institutions in the West that kind of get into that. And so I think it's important to have a platform where the untapped talent in Africa is it's kind of being reached. So I think that it's important. But then one day, the hope is that this can turn into a nature or science in its own right. And people from all over the world will want to publish there.

CO: And there's so much important science isn't there going on right now I hate to say in Africa because we're talking about a vast continent. But there are various health issues, diseases that Africa is dealing with, agriculture, the climate change. Will all these things be part of the science you'd like to see published in Scientific African?

RM: Yes, and actually, you know often we see that the journals that are out of the West do strive to publish a wide range of research. But often, the parties are driven by what people care about in those countries, and so a lot of the research funding comes from within governments, and that's driven by their priorities there. So, for example, cancer research is massive in the West. It's an increasing issue in Africa, but actually you have, for example, we have this field known as “neglected tropical diseases”, which actually just in the title these are diseases that are so cheap to treat. But the science has not moved on it because it's a priority in the West, and all the science research comes from there. And so if we have a platform where people are incentivized to think about these topics that might not kind of grab headlines or be of interest to funders or to audiences in the West. But here’s a platform where like this is an issue in Africa, other people don't care about this kind of neglected tropical disease in other audiences. But this is a priority for us, and so we're investing in it. And so I think that those people who study those diseases have more a platform and have more of a community to discuss it.

CO: And maybe a few more examples? Because I think in agriculture, there is a vast area of science going on investigating drought-resistant crops and issues with desalinization. What is not published in these western mainstream journals that is extremely important to have peer-reviewed by African scientists?

RM: So yes, the example you give is very accurate. So I think, for example, in Kenya, an area that has been very active for a long time, is drought resistant maize, so what you call corn in North America, right? And so corn is a staple all over the world. But then there's specific climatic conditions and specific pests in parts of Africa, for example, in Kenya that you know might not be studied in the West because that is not a priority. And an interesting thing is actually now with the changing climate, pests and diseases that were once considered to be confined to tropical areas are becoming of increasing relevance to non-tropical areas in North America and other areas. And so I think soon we'll be seeing Western scientists wanting to learn from the scientists in Africa. So it's important to keep this knowledge alive here.

CO: What are the barriers to African scientists who want to get published?

RM: So there are a number of barriers: financial barriers are a major issue. So publishing is an important rite of passage if you're an academic or researcher because this is how your work kind of enters the kind of public domain. This is is how other scientists know who you, what you are doing, how it’s important, how it moves the envelope on kind of global knowledge production. But then before you get to the point where you can publish you have to be a qualified researcher, you have to be trained, you have to have research funding. You know you have to exist in this eco system where you are supported as a scientist. And so many Africans do not even get to the point where they have something publishable — where they have a result that they want to share. And so I think publishing is not an end in itself, but it's really a marker of you know this is like a termination point for many people where you've done, you've gone through all of that steps. And so when we see African scientists publishing this is also a signifier of kind of the institutional ecosystem that gives us the sense of like how strong is the research production system in Africa because people are getting to this termination point. That's one thing. So the second thing is, so it's not just publishing, but it's part of being in that conversation. And so you're not just producing, but you're accessing what other people are producing, and it's feeding into your work. And so actually one thing that is a little bit lost in this conversation is that Africans do not just need to publish they need to access what is published from other parts of the world. And that's a major barrier.

CO: I just want to ask you finally, do you think that Scientific African will be able to attract your best and brightest scientists to publish, or is there a perception in academia that you need to be publishing in the big, prestigious Western journals?

RM: Yes, this is a great question. So I think this is an existential challenge for Scientific African. Certainly, that it's hard to compete with the prestigious journals. And actually, this is not just a challenge specific to Africa; you know we don't have a Chinese version of science or nature in terms of prestige. So this hegemony has not been challenged yet. But then one thing I have noticed being back in Nairobi is yes, the prestigious journals do attract these kind of quote/unquote “best and brightest” who are out in the diaspora, who are kind of building those research careers. But what I've noticed is that there's a lot of untapped potential here on the continent. So people who would not even be in that network where they are kind of connected up to get into the very prestigious journals, but they're very talented. And so I think what would be really useful for Scientific African to do is to tap into the talent pool, so as opposed to competing with the prestigious journals like the diaspora and in the prestigious universities that you can build up the capacity here and then publish those people and build your reputation that way.

CO: All right, we'll be watching. Ms. Mutiso, thank you so much for speaking with us.

RM: Thank you so much.

CO: Bye bye.

RM: Bye.

JD: Rose Mutiso is the CEO of the Mawazo Institute. We reached her in Nairobi, Kenya.

[Music: Ambient]

Rob Ford movie

JD: Right now, there is a movie called "Run This Town" in production. And according to Deadline Hollywood, it's about, quote, "a young journalist ...who catches wind of a scandal involving a flashy, unpredictable politician with no filter." Unquote. Now, that "flashy, unpredictable politician" in the movie is none other than the late mayor of Toronto, Rob Ford. He will be played by Damian Lewis, the star of "Homeland", "Billions", and “Band of Brothers”. Now, if you're able to picture both men, you will struggle maybe to find any similarities between Mr. Lewis and Mr. Ford. But that's not the weirdest part. Because according to writer-director Ricky Tollman, quote, "This isn't the Rob Ford story." Unquote. What it is, apparently, is the story of that young journalist. And since Mr. Lewis is playing the actual mayor, you'd think someone would be playing the actual young reporter who broke most of the stories about the mayor: that reporter being Robyn Doolittle. But no: the main character in the movie will be a fictional intern — played by Ben Platt. Meaning, of course, that the character will also be a man. Today, Ms. Doolittle tweeted, "I'm glad they're rewriting the fact that it was a female reporter who investigated Rob Ford. Why have a woman be a lead character when a man could do it? Ammaright?" Unquote. Thing is, oddly, most of the people who are angry about the film seem to be concerned it will be unfair to the late Mayor Ford. But Mr. Tollman said the portrait is sympathetic — telling the Canadian Press, quote, "I wanted to show a side of him that people forget about." Unquote. Okay. So a sympathetic look at a real-life mayor's true character — while a true, real-life character is turned fictional and male. Hmmm…

Part three: Windsor student recovers, Ireland pardon

Windsor student recovers

Guests: Madison Arsenault, Jennifer Bezaire

JD: The prognosis for Madison Arseneault was not great. And you'll understand why when you hear what happened to her. Two years ago, Ms. Arsenault — who was 14 years old at the time — was jogging on a sports field during gym class in Windsor, Ontario. She tripped over a wire, which was attached to a sawed-off golf club being used as a stake. The golf club punctured the back of her skull. Ms. Arsenault was rushed to the hospital, and remained in critical condition for weeks. Now, she and her family are suing the City of Windsor and the Greater Essex County District school board for 20-million dollars. Doctors said Madison Arsenault would never walk again. They were wrong. We reached Ms. Arseneault, and her lawyer Jennifer Bezaire, in Windsor.

CO: Madison, how are you doing?

MADISON ARESENAULT: I’m doing as good as I can be.

CO: How is it at school?

MA: It's pretty tough with like cognitive fatigue and vision problems.

CO: And what's it like getting around?

MA: Difficult.

CO: Can you describe what a day is like for you?

MA: It's rough. Like I can walk a bit now, but now comes the pain and circulatory problems and more fatigue and tiredness.

CO: Well, one extraordinary thing is that the doctors, after your injury, they said you might never walk again, but you are walking, right?

MA: Yeah, short distances.

CO: What was it like when you took your first steps on your own?

MA: It was painful and really hard.

CO: But did it feel like victory?

MA: Yeah, a little bit. It was a bit of relief that like I was making some improvements, but again, it was rough.

CO: How hard is it now? Is it still as painful?

MA: It's not as painful, but I still get a lot of muscle pain and nerve pain and circulatory problems with walking.

CO: So Madison, what do you remember about what happened that day?

MA: Nothing.

CO: It was just the accident, and then you were in hospital?

MA: Yes.

CO: I know your lawyer is there — Jennifer Bezaire. Are you there, Ms. Bezaire?

JENNIFER BEZAIRE: yes, I am.

CO: Maybe you can tell us what did occur?

JB: Yeah, from what we understand, the City of Windsor was painting chalk lines on the soccer field. And they were using a white string that was the same colour as the chalk line, so it was not visible to any of the public. There were no markers or demarcations telling us that they were in the process of doing that. In fact, there was a trip hazard. As part of their painting of the lines, they were using a sawed-off golf club. And Madison, unbeknownst to her, walked into the string, tripped on it, and that tautness of the string caused the golf clubs to come up from the ground and strike Madison in the head.

CO: Good heavens! And it pierced her skull, as I understand?

JB: That's my understanding as well, yes.

CO: It's just so awful.

CO: Madison, just go back to you. When you recovered in hospital, when you were aware of it, what limitations did you think you were going to have?

MA: I didn’t think I was ever going to be able to walk again, or be able to like I don’t really know. But what doctors told me was that I wouldn’t be able to walk again. And I would never get any function again. And my vision, which has still has made no gains, would stay impaired.

CO: Tell me about your vision?

MA: Because of the injury, both of my eyes are only half-functioning, so they’re like cut in half, and only the right side works.

CO: And now that you are showing just some recovery, just doing things that the doctors said could never happen, are they changing their prognosis? Are they more optimistic about what you're facing? T

MA: They don't really know because doctors like they only have the knowledge that they have obtained, which is hard with brain injuries. But they said that whatever gains I make they're going to be happy with because they didn't expect anything.

CO: And are you being happy with the gains you're making?

MA: I'm as happy as I can be. There’s still a lot of things that I wish were different.

CO: You've had to learn how to do things, right?

MA: Yeah.

CO: Tell me some of the things that you have accomplished?

MA: Well, I can walk short distances, but it comes with pain. And there's more problems that are arising from it. But that's one positive thing.

CO: I understand you’re doing some baking now?

MA: Yeah, it's difficult. I've had to like try to come up with as many ways I can get across things and do things on my own. But I still need a lot of help.

CO: But you've mastered cracking eggs with one hand?

MA: Yeah.

CO: Without getting shell into the bowl?

MA: Yeah, I'm proud of that.

CO: That's quite something. But what's been the hardest part in the last two years for you?

MA: The hardest part I think has been a lot of the pain, and just being different now. Like having to change the way I live.

CO: And Madison, just finally, you have made this progress. You should be proud of what you've done. It sounds like you're quite remarkable and strong. But where do you think you'll be in two years from now? What would you like to see happening with your body and your health?

MA: I don't really know what to expect. I would like to be as normal as possible, but I know that I'm never going to get back to the way I was before. So I’ll just try to make as many gains possible.

CO: Well, I hope that's the case. And that you continue this progress. And I really appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

MA: Thank you.

CO: And thank you, Ms. Bezaire.

JB: Thank you.

JD: 16-year-old Madison Arseneault and her lawyer Jennifer Bezaire. Both of those people in Windsor, Ontario. The City of Windsor and the area school board told CBC that Ms. Arsenault's injuries were "unforeseeable" and "could not have been prevented."

[Music: Ambient]

Good Friday agreement

JD: It has been twenty years since the Good Friday agreement was signed in Northern Ireland. The deal followed decades of violence and thousands of deaths. It’s credited with ending The Troubles. To mark today's anniversary, the people who were part of the agreement process gathered in Belfast, including former US President Bill Clinton, former British Prime Minister Tony Blair and former taoiseach Bertie Ahern. Here's part of what Mr. Blair had to say today.

SOUNDCLIP

TONY BLAIR: As I've done interviews over the last few days, many people have said to me well, you know the executive is no longer are up and running, has it really worked? We've even had some politicians saying does it really matter? The important thing is not to compare where we are with where ideally we would want to be. Because ideally, we would want to be in a better place than where we are. The comparison is with where we are and where we were. And the important thing is to remember that. Remember when we used to wake up every single day to the news of death, destruction, terrorism. And I know that the tensions are still there. The divisions are still there. The difficulties are still there. But I would say whatever the difficulties, whatever the challenges, whatever the problems, this agreement is worth preserving and building upon.

JD: Former British Prime Minister Tony Blair, speaking earlier today in Belfast. Also today, the BBC program “The Newsroom” aired a piece by correspondent Rob Watson. Rob Watson travelled to Northern Ireland to meet fellow journalist David McKittrick. Mr. McKittrick was his guide in Belfast three decades ago, during the Troubles. Here's a part of that piece, beginning with Mr. McKittrick.

SOUNDCLIP

DAVID MCKITTRICK: Life is a lot quieter here. And it's a lot more pleasant. I’ve been here since the 1970s, so I look at this and say wow! Hasn't it improved tremendously, you know? We don't have funerals anymore, Rob. Right back in the old days, there were dozens in a month.

ROB WATSON: I mean I remember you taking me to the parts of the city where there were big walls dividing working-class Catholics and Protestant communities to stop the violence. Are they still there? Can we go and have a look?

DM: Yes, I'll take you there. Those big walls are very much still there.

RW: Really?

DM: A lot of things have improved, but the walls are still there blotting out the sunlight for quite a lot of people. Well let’s go and have a look, if you don't mind?

DM: This is part of the folds that were very Republican. As you can see a lot of these have Republican flags.

RW: Irish flags.

DM: Irish flags, yeah. And there were so many people killed here during the Troubles. That front of you you can see is the Republican Catholic side of peace line. That's the peace line. As you can see, part of is made of brick, and then you have metal on top of it.

RW: There are all these photos.

DM: Yeah, these are photos of dead IRA people.

RW: That was the paramilitary group.

DM: Yeah.

RW: And the simple question: I mean why are there still peace walls?

DM: If you ask anybody around here. And you say what's life like here? And they’ll say life is fine. And you say there’s a big peace line there. And they will say well, it's always been there. And you say well, would you like a more normal society? They’ll say I suppose. And then you’ll say would you like the peace lines to come down? And they say Oh no, we'd be attacked. Attacked by who? Attacked by the people on the other side of the peace line. Where in the height of the Troubles there were hundreds of people dying every year, now it's maybe one or two. And they tend to be a little kind of feuding things rather than sectarian attacks. But sectarianism, as a glance at this wall would show you, is very definitely not gone. We're still very divided in terms of our politics, our schools, and in terms of where we live.

JD: BBC journalist Rob Watson's piece for the program “The Newsroom”

[Music: Ambient]

Newfoundland moose

JD: Tyson Winsor was snowmobiling with his friend when he came across a moose. Mr. Winsor is from northeastern Newfoundland, and he wanted to go back to take a photograph. He soon realized the animal seemed to be stuck in the snow. Mr. Winsor explained what happened that day to CBC's Martin Jones.

SOUNDCLIP

TYSON WINSOR: We walked up to try to size up what we could do to get it out of it. Then, he made a jump, and I guess with the fright of not knowing or seeing us come toward him or whatever and when he made the jump, he broke the crust on the snow and sort of fell forward and rolled over out of the hole that he was in.

MARTIN JONES: And then you and your friend decide to do something that a lot of people probably wouldn't do. What did you do then?

TW: We stayed there after we realized the moose wasn’t going to charge us or nothing, and walked up, talking to him and telling him it was alright and that. And he wasn’t trying to run away or nothing. And he was a bit uneasy; he had his ears pinned back. But after talking to him for a little bit there, he calmed down and relaxed. And you could see his ears go up straight. Went on then and sat down by him and started talking to him.

MJ: Did you manage to get moose free at all? Did the moose run away then? What happened next?

TW: He was free of the snow and everything, but he was just too weak to get up and run away or nothing. So we said well, we’ll let him rest now, and continue on our ride. Left to come back home and the moose was still there. And he jumped up and almost stood up and fell down again. I said well, that’s more than he’d ever done before, so he might be gaining a bit of energy. And getting late in the evening, we said well, we're leaving now. Shouldn't be nobody else along the pattern. And, hopefully, he'll gain energy enough to get on the go before he freezes or coyotes comes and gets at him.

MJ: So you certainly did everything you guys could do as well. But, unfortunately, this story does have a bit of a sad ending. What did you hear the next day?

TW: Well, I heard the next day that the moose never made it.

MJ: I imagine this was hard news to hear?

TW: Yeah, after being there with him and sort of made a connection with him. And then to hear that he never made it hoping that we've done what we could to get him on the go.

JD: That was Tyson Winsor, speaking with the CBC's Martin Jones about the moose he came across while snowmobiling, on “The Central Morning Show”.

[Music: Orchestra]

Ireland pardon

Guest: Niamh Howlin

JD: The President of Ireland describes the case as a, quote, "miscarriage of justice". Of course, he has the benefit of hindsight: that miscarriage of justice took place 136 years ago. In 1882, a man by the name of Myles Joyce was hanged for a murder that he didn't commit. His trial was held entirely in English. Mr. Joyce spoke only Irish. And although he couldn't even understand his defense lawyer, he maintained his innocence until the very end. Now, President Michael D. Higgins has officially pardoned Mr. Joyce. Niamh Howlin is a lecturer at University College Dublin's Sutherland School of Law. The Irish government commissioned her to write a report on the case of Myles Joyce. We reached her in Dublin, Ireland.

CO: Ms. Howlin, what was your reaction when you learned that Myles Joyce was going to be pardoned after 136 years?

NIAMH HOWLIN: I was delighted to hear about it.

CO: Why is he only being pardoned now?

NH: Well, that's a good question. These things do take time. And there has been some growing support for a pardon in recent years. And there are still some family members — some descendants — of Mr. Joyce still living in the country. And our president, Michael D. Higgins, also had an interest in the case.

CO: Well, let's get to the story of what happened? We’re referring to him as Myles Joyce.

NH: He was an Irish speaker, so a Gaelic speaker and he didn't speak any English. And that was fairly common in the part of Ireland where he was from. So what happened was there was a very brutal murder of five members of the same family in August 1882. So a husband, his wife, his son, his daughter, and his mother were all killed in the dead of night. And a number of people were accused of the murder. And, ultimately, three men were hanged for it. But the trial itself didn't take place in the locality, didn't take place in Galway, and it took place right across the country in Dublin. And there were several problems with the way the trial was conducted.

CO: But the biggest problem was that the trial was conducted in the in the English language, is that right?

NH: I think that's probably one of the biggest problems. If they had kept the trial in Galway, in the original location, there would have been an interpreter in the court because it was a bilingual area. And some of the people on the jury probably would have spoken Irish as well. But because they moved it to Dublin, there was no interpreter. And the court at sort of short notice said well, we'll just appoint a police officer to act as an interpreter. And the only role that that police interpreter had was to translate the Gaelic speaking or the Irish speaking testimony for the benefit of the judge and the jury. So this police constable didn't translate any of the English proceedings for the benefit of Myles and the other defendants. So it was only a one-way translation.

CO: So did Maolra or Myles know what was going on? Could he follow anything in this trial?

NH: It would seem that he didn't really follow it very much at all. His solicitor, so his defense lawyer, didn't speak any Irish, so they couldn't communicate directly.

CO: And there were witnesses who changed their mind and others who were on trial who said that Myles was not involved in the murder. Did that count for anything?

NH: It wasn't really until after the trial until just before the execution threat to take place that the two other accused men fairly clearly said that Myles had no involvement. And those statements that were made were forwarded to the Lord Lieutenant, who would have been the representative of the Crown in Ireland at the time. And an appeal for clemency was made. So a reprieve — a last-minute reprieve from the death sentence — was sought. But it was declined at the last minute.

CO: Tell us the context of this — the political climate at the time? This is well before the existence of the Republic of Ireland. There are tremendous tensions between the Irish and the English. And language is key to that — people trying to speak their language of Irish or Gaelic. What was the context for this trial? There was intense media interest, wasn't there?

NH: There was. When the murders took place in August of 1882, the country was in a state of tension. There had been a few very violent incidences over the past few months. There had been and special legislation passed. And everything was really simmering or everyone was on edge. So when these murders took place, the authorities jumped to the conclusion, I think, that the murders part of a wider agrarian or political unrest in the countryside. And this would probably go some way to explaining why they acted so and so harshly and so swiftly I think in dealing with the murders.

CO: Myles Joyce or Maolra Seoighe went right to the moment of being hanged protesting is in essence, saying this was wrong. It's horrible scenes of that. Can you tell us about that?

NH: Yeah, well it would seem that when the three men were brought to be hanged in Galway in December 1882, Myles kept protesting his innocence right up until the very end. And, obviously, he was doing this all you know through Gaelic — through the Irish language. And he was so agitated that when the hangman's noose went around his neck, it seemed to have slipped. And the result was that he didn't die instantly as he should have. And it was a prolonged and painful execution unfortunately.

CO: What does this mean in Ireland that this pardon should come for this man?

NH: I think it's very significant for the families and the descendants of everyone who was involved in the murders. So the families of the victims and families of the accused. I suppose 130-odd years later, it's you know it's a little too late for Myles. But I think it's never too late to do the right thing. And I think this kind of gesture at such a high level can have a very cathartic or a very calming effect on maybe the wounds of the past.

CO: We will leave it there. I appreciate you telling this story, Ms. Howlin. Thank you.

NH: Thank you for having me.

JD: Niamh Howlin is a lecturer at University College Dublin's Sutherland School of Law. We reached her in Dublin. And to read more about the case of Myles Joyce, go to our website.

[Music: Piano]

FOA: Squirrel CPR

JD: Natalie Belsito is crediting a TV show for helping her save a life. Ms. Belsito is a student at Central Michigan University. Last week, she heard that someone was struggling in a nearby pond. She sprang into action, undeterred by the fact that that someone was a squirrel. She enlisted the help of a passerby, who hauled the rodent out by its sodden tail. But by the time it hit the ground it showed no signs of life. So Ms. Belsito drew on her knowledge of life-saving techniques — and began administering CPR, which was a challenge because, as Ms. Belsito admits, she doesn't really know CPR, which may explain why she started out by using a hockey stick, which isn't how most people are taught. Then a friend grabbed a towel and she tried squeezing the furry little chest to the beat of the Bee Gee's "Stayin Alive", which is how the hapless characters on one of her favourite shows were taught. "Honestly," said Ms. Belsito, "when I was doing it, I was thinking of the episode of 'The Office' when they do CPR. I was literally singing that song as I tried to do it." And, sure enough, after an hour the squirrel was conscious, but cold. After a brief dorm rules-defying warm-up in her room, she set it free. There's a YouTube video showing Natalie Belsito, screaming with delight as her little patient, as he beats it for a nearby tree. But if she listened to As It Happens, Ms. Belsito wouldn’t have had to rely on “The Office” We're old hands at rodent resuscitation. Just ask Phoenix pool repairman Rick Gruber. Here is telling his story to Carol back in 2014.

SOUNDCLIP

RICK GRUBER: Well, I was working on the pool at the house. And while I was working on the heater, I heard splashing and stuff in the background. And I thought something must be in the pool. I didn’t know if it was an animal or a person or something. So I went ant looked over the fence, and I saw the ground squirrel, and he was struggling to keep his head above water.

CO: Yikes! So when did you realize that this squirrel was not going to get himself out?

RG: Well, I knew right away he wouldn't be able to get himself out because there is nothing for him to grab onto to climb out. So I thought well, I’ll run back over to my truck and get a piece of PVC or a pole or something, and I'll try and fish them out. And by the time I got back, he was already under water. His head was down, and his little butt was sticking up in the air. And he wasn't breathing or moving or anything. So I thought great, I lost him. So I jumped over the fence and fished him out. I kept thinking to myself well, he's only been there for a minute or so. Let me go ahead and see if by some strange chance I could probably give him CPR or something and bring him back to life.

CO: Give him CPR?

RG: Yeah.

CO: Well, what exactly did you do to really help this squirrel recover? What was your CPR treatment?

RG: Just basically pushing on his chest and squeezing his side to try and get some breath back into him so he could start breathing on his own again. And I just kept on going until his whole body twitched. And then once this whole body twitched, I had a feeling I thought wow! He's actually starting to take a breath. I go this is pretty cool! I think I might just resuscitated a ground squirrel.

CO: So after you did this — you did your CPR on this squirrel — what else did you do?

RG: I put him in my knee that I'm just kind of waited to see what happen. I was tickling his foot to see if I was going to get some response out of him. I was petting him and you know talking to him, things like that. And then when he did kind of almost like a hiccup some of the water came out and went on the ground. I think that some kind of freed up as air passage and lungs to get him going again.

CO: And within about an hour then, he had fully recovered?

RG: Yeah, within an hour he had fully recovered. And he kind sniffed around a little bit and he was walking around beside me. He took off across the gravel and scurried back off into the fence out in the desert.

CO: And that was it. He was gone?

RG: Yup, that was it. He didn't even give the look over the shoulder or wave or anything like that.

CO: Not even so much as a thank you?

RG: Nope, not even a thank you.

JD: From our archives, that was Phoenix Arizona pool repairman Rick Gruber, speaking to Carol in 2014.

[Music: Country]

McDonald’s lawsuit

JD: In 2016, Kelly Killeen went to a McDonald's restaurant, wherein she purchased a "Sausage Burrito Extra Value Meal" for breakfast — a meal that would change her life. By the end of that year, Ms. Killeen filed a class-action lawsuit, claiming she had, quote, "suffered an injury in fact". She was not referring to any physical distress that followed the two sausage burritos, hash browns, and small coffee. Rather, she went on to claim she'd, quote, "lost money as a result of...deceptive and unfair conduct." You see, it was the phrase "extra value meal" that stuck in Kelly Killeen's craw. Not, as far as I know, the sausage burritos. Because on that fateful day in Chicago two years ago, she paid 5 dollars, 8 cents for the "extra value meal" — whereas buying each component of the meal separately would have cost her 4 dollars, 97 cents. A full eleven cents less — hence the lawsuit. This was a lot for U.S. District Judge Elaine E. Bucklo to digest, again, not referring to the sausage burritos. But in her decision, Judge Bucklo was ultimately guided by the law. Yes, she concluded, McDonald's does suggest that its extra value meal is a meal with extra value. But Ms. Killeen could have seen the prices prominently displayed on the menus behind the counter. She could have done the math. And, to quote Judge Bucklo, quote, "doing so would have dispelled the deception on which her claims are based." Unquote. So she dismissed the lawsuit. It did make a reasonable argument, but in the end, it was kind of a dog's breakfast. And again, I'm not referring to… all right, you get it.

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April 11, 2018 episode transcript

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