'Don't use that with me, please, ma'am': Senator Don Plett snaps back in O Canada interview

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Conservative Senator Don Plett took offence at a line of questioning from As It Happens host Carol Off during a combative interview about Canada's national anthem. Plett has proposed amendments to a bill that would make the lyrics of O Canada gender neutral. 

The bill was sponsored by Liberal MP Mauril Bélanger before he died last summer from ALS. The Liberals were hoping to pass it in time for Canada Day.

But Independent Senator Frances Lankin, who sponsored the bill in the Senate, told CBC News Plett's amendment would effectively "kill the bill."

If it goes back to the House of Commons, Frances said, MPs would have to unanimously agree to replace Bélanger as its sponsor, something that is unlikely because of considerable Conservative opposition to the proposed wording. 

Off asked Plett about this on Wednesday evening. Here is a part of their conversation. 

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Carol Off: Senator Platt, what is wrong with changing the lyrics in O Canada from "in all they son's command" to this more inclusive "in all of us command"?

Don Plett: I believe very clearly that the author Justice [Robert Stanley] Weir had very clear reasons for penning a song the way he did, and our country decided to take that song and make it our national anthem and I do not believe for one second that Justice Weir didn't intend it to be entirely inclusive.

CO: Were not his original lyrics "thou dost in us command?"

DP: Which is why my amendment says exactly that. That's the point I was just going to make. If we want to change it, we need to change it exactly to that.  

My office has talked to Mr. [Stephen Weir] Simpson, Justice Weir's grandson, and the family is quite adamant that this was our grandfather's intent, and who are you to mess around with lyrics that my grandfather wrote?

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CO: Why don't Canadians have a voice in this?

DP: Well then why don't we ask Canada? We're not asking Canada.

CO: Well, the legislature passed the change in these words.

DP: And the Senate, which is also part of Parliament, is debating it. Are we not entitled to our opinion? Am I not entitled to my opinion, as you are to yours? I'm part of the legislative process. The Senate is part of the legislative process. We're part of Parliament.

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CO: Well, you're not elected.

DP: You tell me where the constitution says that the unelected Senate isn't part of Parliament? We're the chamber of sober second thought. So, are you suggesting to me, ma'am, that we as a Senate do not have an obligation? What are we here for? We may as well all go home. If we don't have the right, and indeed the obligation, to debate this thoroughly, we shouldn't be here. So don't use that with me, please, ma'am. I have an obligation as a senator.

CO: This legislation was passed by someone who was dying, Liberal MP Mauril Bélanger. He was the one who proposed to make it inclusive, to make it gender neutral. And he's not alive now to make an amendment to it. And so, it appears that if there is an attempt to change, the bill dies. Is that your intention, to see the entire effort to change these lyrics just die?

DP: Well, I am very, very offended that you would even insinuate that. No.

CO: It's a question, sir.

DP: I am offended by that question. Of course it's not. And this is not about one man that is dying. I am very sorry that Mr. Bélanger passed away, but it has nothing to do with one person's wishes. Not with Mr. Bélanger's or with Senator Don Plett. As you said, this is a national anthem. Belongs to the Canadian people. It did not and does not belong to Mr. Bélanger. Nor does it belong to Senator Don Plett.

This has been tried five times before Mr. Bélanger tried it. And to use, for you to use, a dying man as a lever to try to somehow move an agenda forward, it is appalling, as it is for any sponsor of the legislation to try to use Mr. Bélanger for leverage on what we did here in good faith. 

CO: And so you want your amendment to be put a vote?

DP: Well, of course I do, like I want any other amendment to be put to a vote.

CO: And the chances are that it will pass in the Senate, is that what your understanding is?

DP: No, I expect that people who want the bill to pass will likely not vote for my amendment if, in fact, the bill dies then.  But come on, even you at CBC need to be able to put these things together.

CO: They want to have this changed in order to have it for part of the celebration for Canada's 150th.

DP: Yes, but today is May 31. We're here for another three weeks. If we vote on my amendment tomorrow, they have three weeks time to still debate and vote on the original motion. Like, do you even understand how we work here?

With files from CBC News. This interview transcript has been edited for length and clarity. For more, listen to our conversation with Senator Don Plett.