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The AIH Transcript for November 21, 2018

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello I'm Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening. I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

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JD: Tonight...

CO: Exclamation points. In an emphatically punctuated statement US President Trump says he'll stand by Saudi Arabia. Our guest says that after the murder of his friend Jamal Khashoggi that position is unconscionable -- period.

JD: Trespassing at his own risk. An American man was determined to visit a remote island in India despite warnings that the endangered tribe on it did not want visitors -- now John Allen Chau is dead.

CO: Remain calm. As the U.S. and Canadian governments tell citizens to throw out their salad fixings -- one hydroponic producer hopes cooler heads prevail because he says his product is totally safe.

JD: Packing their bags and bagging a pack. To restore a dwindling wolf population in a Michigan national park -- experts will capture animals from an Ontario island and fly them across the border.

CO: It was going full tilt. But before it could topple entirely scientists stepped in, and as it stands, the Leaning Tower of Pisa is actually standing taller than expected.

JD: And... a get rich quip scheme. A brilliant writer publishes a perfect article in The Paris Review defending the ingenious construction and dazzling wit of the linguistic pleasure called "the pun." As It Happens. The Wednesday edition. Radio that uses language like a teenage boy uses cologne: pun-gently.

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Part 1: Khashoggi's friend calls Trump's statement reaffirming U.S.-Saudi alliance 'outrageous'

Khashoggi latest

Guest: Steve Clemons

JD: "America first! The world is a very dangerous place." That is how U.S. President Donald Trump began a bizarre statement expressing solidarity with Saudi Arabia yesterday. In the official statement Mr. Trump says he condemns the killing of Jamal Khashoggi but that "we may never know all the facts" surrounding his murder. He concludes that the United States will remain a steadfast partner of the kingdom. Today Turkey blasted President Trump's comments as "comic" accusing him of turning a blind eye to the journalist's killing. Steve Clemons calls Trump's position a betrayal. He was a friend of Mr. Khashoggi and is editor-at-large with the Atlantic. We reached Mr. Clemons in Washington D.C.

CO: Steve what was it like for you to read that exclamation mark -- statement from the president?

STEVE CLEMONS: I was deeply disappointed and I felt that America in many senses was betrayed by its president -- the way in which he reversed himself and decided not to hold Mohammed bin Salman or any of the top level Saudi leaders responsible for his death despite his own CIA and his own CIA director coming to the conclusion that Mohammed bin Salman likely ordered the murder and execution of Jamal Khashoggi. I just felt like America had lost its moral standing in the world and honestly it just left an enormous pit in my stomach.

CO: You mentioned Mohammed bin Salman, crown prince of Saudi Arabia. And the CIA -- United States’ intelligence agencies, say that they believe that he knew about the murder and I think [inaudible] he was the one responsible for ordering it. President Trump says well maybe he did, maybe he didn't. How does that jive with what we've heard from intelligence?

SC: Well what it jives with is the President's disdain for his own intelligence agencies. He's done this in the past. He did this with the issue of Russian hacking in the American elections in 2016. This reeked of that same tendency of the president that because of his own parochial reasons wanting to ignore the best advisers, the best analysis, and the best intelligence that the United States can bring to bear on something. I think it's going to create ramifications for the President down the road. Because right now we have a move by a couple of U.S. senators: Senator Bob Corker and Senator Robert Menendez from the Foreign Relations Committee to demand from the president whether or not he formally holds Mohammed bin Salman responsible for the killing of Khashoggi. And that is required under our law by the Magnitsky Act. And so the president is going to have to put himself on the record as to whether he supports what Gina Haspel, the director of the CIA, told him or not.

CO: And these statements -- what the CIA and intelligence in the United States has said about the likelihood that Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman ordered this execution -- it's not just an opinion. I mean this would be based on what they've learned from the Turks, what they've learned elsewhere. Right?

SC: I think it's based on a number of things. I've talked to a number of people in the intelligence community. Of course I have not seen the report so I need to be clear about that. But what we do know from the report is one very important element of this is that Khalid bin Salman, the brother of Mohammed bin Salman, is Ambassador of Saudi Arabia to the United States. And while Jamal was missing and before we had known what had happened this ambassador had texted me, had texted a number of other people, that he was friends with Jamal Khashoggi -- that the Saudis would never engage in any violence against him. And so what has come to light is particularly horrific. But we know from the leaks about this intelligence report that Khalid bin Salman, the ambassador, talked to Jamal and encouraged him to go to the Saudi consulate in Istanbul and told him that he had nothing to fear. And that he did this at the instructions of his brother -- Mohammed bin Salman instructed his brother to help coax Jamal Khashoggi into the Turkish consulate where this horrific deed occurred. That's one element to this but I think from talking to other intelligence agencies that there are other corroborating bits of signal intelligence that were part of their report.

CO: When you mentioned that the ambassador, the Saudi ambassador to the U.S., called Jamal Khashoggi a 'friend' -- at the same time in this curious statement by the president he says that, this is a quote 'representatives of Saudi Arabia say that Jamal Khashoggi was an enemy of the state and a member of the Muslim Brotherhood.' I can find no reference to them ever saying that, have I missed something?

SC: Early on there were two faces of the Saudi posture on Jamal Khashoggi: one was concern for his whereabouts and statements that they had nothing to do with it -- that he had left the consulate and that they held no ill will towards him. Behind the scenes Mohammed bin Salman was shocked at the reaction in the United States where saying that Khashoggi was not important and was an Islamist and a Muslim Brotherhood member and this apparently was reported and transpired in conversations between bin Salman and Jared Kushner as well as with bin Salman and President Trump. These were never formal statements. So what Donald Trump parroted was essentially in my opinion the bile that had come from Mohammed bin Salman about Khashoggi privately.

CO: If Prince bin Salman at least was involved in getting his family involved in getting Jamal Khashoggi to the Turkish embassy and that this falls into this suggestion that this was an abduction that went bad. But again nothing in this statement of the president's or anything we're hearing can explain all the people who were involved. He mentions there are 17 people that are sanctioning from Saudi Arabia. A body hasn't been found. Identities of those who are involved have been revealed. Some of them would indicate that they were there for the purposes of an assassination. I mean none of this adds up, doesn't it?

SC: It doesn't add up. I mean I think that what is the most outrageous thing about the president's statement is that he has decided that because of what he perceives to be American economic interest in selling arms that that interests trumps any possibility that Mohammed bin Salman was involved in the horrific murder of a prominent Washington Post journalist. That is something we've never seen before -- the gross overtness of that because he's basically said maybe he killed him, maybe he didn't but it doesn't matter. I think that the president has set a very dangerously low bar for the killing and the harassment of journalists in the future all over the world. And when you kind of look at what he was willing to do this for and we joke about the president being a transactional person and not having a moral compass -- well this is just ten times that.

CO: You say that you've never seen such an overt statements, grossly overt, a declaration that commercial interests trump human rights but it has been covertly part of United States history hasn't it? I mean I'm thinking of Latin America when I say that...

SC: Well look I am realist in foreign policy and you know I've always believed that there is an interest base for much of what we do but it doesn't mean that you spit on the moral core of what you say you're about. You can go back and look at Reagan and the Oliver North -- deal with Iran or other kinds of things that were really gross moments in American history but nonetheless they were shameful, people were held accountable, people went to jail, people lost their jobs. The president was embarrassed and paid a political price. That is not yet happening in this moment.

CO: Well Steve we will be watching and following this story. I appreciate that you would speak with us today. Thank you.

SC: My pleasure.

JD: Steve Clemons is an editor-at-large with the Atlantic. He was also a friend of Jamal Khashoggi. We reached Mr. Clemons in Washington D.C.

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Romaine lettuce warning

Guest: Andy Holloway

JD: Don't eat romaine lettuce. That is the message from public health officials to people in Ontario and Quebec. The Centres for Disease Control in the United States has issued an even scarier warning saying that no one in the entire U.S. should consume romaine. So far lettuce contaminated with E. coli bacteria has been blamed for making 18 Canadians ill. But some producers who grow their lettuce in hydroponic greenhouses are urging people not to toss their salads. They say that despite the blanket warnings their product is still safe to eat. Andy Holloway is a co-owner of Baywater Greens. We reached him in Salisbury, Maryland.

CO: Mr. Holloway what kinds of calls have you been getting from customers since this E. coli warning was issued?

ANDY HOLLOWAY: Yeah we've been getting a lot of calls from concerned customers. They saw information from the CDC and the CDC told them to throw away all romaine -- and it wasn't really specific on any areas or how it is processed so a lot of concerned clients have been calling us and saying you know we're going to throw your products away basically.

CO: Now are they outright canceling their romaine orders?

AH: Yeah. So we had a couple of customers cancel on an order, on their orders, last night. It honestly -- I believe the CDC came out with their information at probably 4:30 and by 4:35 our phone was ringing unfortunately. So you know we've been trying as best as we can through our social media. I've been working with the Maryland Department of Agriculture trying to tell everyone that you know we're a little bit different because we're hydroponic. It's grown without soil. It's grown in an environment that has no spray in it. And also you know we do water testing quarterly which is pretty specific you know to make sure there's no pathogens or anything like that.

CO: They say they don't know what the outbreak comes from. So is it possible that maybe it's from hydroponics as well? Since they don't know the source.

AH: They obviously know more than I do about every situation involving this sort of thing. And I do understand what they're going after -- they want to put a blanket statement out there. However I believe that our hydroponic systems are a lot safer. If you walk into our greenhouse it looks like a laboratory. We've got white floors. We've got you know -- we wear rubber gloves while we harvest and everything is documented down to a tee and it's a controlled environment. We have what's called a closed loop system so all of the water is recirculated which is good for the environment but it's also good to know what is going on with the water at any given time. I can understand what I'm going to assume is a knee jerk reaction to get rid of all remnants. However in our situation I believe that hydroponics are little bit different -- that it is in a controlled environment.

CO: Also I believe that historically outbreaks of E.coli in food and produce have been located in places which were near some kind of cattle farming operations so that the runoff would be from the fields.

AH: That's right. I remember hearing there was a cantaloupe outbreak maybe three years ago and what happened was in that situation they were trucking the cantaloupes through an area where they had cows previously. And when the soil kind of flew up on the wagons where they harvested, when the soil flew up, it went onto the cantaloupes and cantaloupes have more of a porous outside than say a watermelon and it kind of went into the cantaloupe.

CO: Do you think though it's easier from a public health point of view just to tell people not to eat romaine, to get rid of all the romaine, because they can't tell the difference -- they don't know what it is. And so they have it in their fridge. They don't know if it's on -- the supermarket. They don't know that it's better just to get rid of all of it so that people don't have to make those choices themselves.

AH: Yeah I do agree with that. It makes it difficult for a small farm. We're hyper local. You know I think it boils back down to knowing where your food comes from. That's what I'd like to think anyway. Knowing that your food is locally sourced and that you know you have a connection to the farmer. And I know that's not possible in a lot of instances so I can understand what the CDC is doing when they say to get rid of everything but it does hurt small farms. Even the small farm down the road that's growing romaine they might have procedures in place that will prevent that sort of thing. So it does hurt you know these smaller farms when an outbreak like this occurs.

CO: And we just pointed out that the public health agency of Canada has issued the same directives for Ontario and Quebec about romaine lettuce and so issue is here as well and sure hurting the producers like yourself. But I mean what's to be done after something like this occurs? I mean is there any way to get compensation? Is there any way to get some kind of return from the government because of what's happened?

AH: As it stands right now our farm, I can only speak for my farm, but my farm does not have anything insurance wise that would protect us on something like this. What happened was almost overnight all of our grocery store chains that we deal with and the wholesalers moved over to other lettuces so they're moving into bibb and they're moving into spring. So we do have something called traceability that's mandated so we can actually trace every head of lettuce from the point of sale all the way through. We do audits once a while. So I think traceability is a big one. If you could get a system in place where you could track that quicker maybe you could limit a press release like that where you say throw away all romaine -- perhaps you could actually drill it down into, 'oh you know this is the variety, this is the brand.'

CO: Are you having romaine salad with your dinner tonight?

AH: I actually [chuckles] yeah. We took a video of myself and one of my sales guys eating romaine because we feel confident in what we grow. And I think there's a lot of local small farms that can do that. They can be very confident in what they grow because we stake our reputation on it. We're not spread out across the entire nation. We are hyper local and that's what we pride ourselves on, but when something like this happens the backlash even hits the small farms.

CO: Alright 'know your food' Mr. Holloway thank you.

AH: Absolutely. Thank you.

JD: Andy Holloway is the co-owner of Baywater Greens. We reached him in Salisbury, Maryland.

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Wolf pack

Guest: Phyllis Green

JD: This winter wolves from Michipicoten island in northeastern Lake Superior are going abroad and they're not coming back. A U.S.-Canadian relocation program has been green lit in which Ontario wolves will be captured and transferred to the Isle Royale National Park in Michigan to jumpstart the local population there. Now you may remember that in January of this year As It Happens covered the story of the dwindling caribou population on Michipicoten because there was a surplus of wolves. Phyllis Green is the superintendent of the Isle Royale National Park in Michigan. We however reached her on the Door Peninsula in Wisconsin.

CO: Ms. Green why is it that you need more wolves on the Isle Royale National Park?

PHYLLIS GREEN: Well after careful consideration our population of wolves is down to two and yet we have a burgeoning moose population on the island and so we were looking at a number of alternatives. Everything from just letting the moose move to a boom bust type of population -- or to restore the predator-prey dynamic between wolves and moose. And the decision we made last June was to restore the predator-prey relationship on the island.

CO: What happened to your wolves?

PG: They went through several genetic bottlenecks and diminished down to two animals that are very closely related. There is a male and a female however they are father-daughter and also half siblings because they have the same mother. So that is pretty much coming to a genetic end to that line that has been successfully on the island for close to 50 to 60 years.

CO: But if there is so much food available -- if there is such an abundance then why did they not thrive?

PG: They did thrive for multiple years and decades actually. And they had a little help though because there were few ice bridges that formed and one or two single animals came over during the last 70 years. But although there is abundant food we had an incident where back in the 1980s parvovirus came onto the island from a pet dog actually that was with some boaters. They were at an all-time high of around 50 animals. It dropped it right down to 10 or 12.

CO: So what is the interest in the Canadian wolves? What will they bring to the revival of your wolf pack?

PG: The Canadian wolves have never been diminished in population numbers like they were on the U.S. side of the border. So on the U.S. side of the border there are some trace elements of both coyote and dog and the different source populations. When you switch over to the Canadian side of the border because they've never been at such low population levels they remain very much wolf. They have very little dog or coyote strains in their genetics.

CO: A lot of wolves do don't they?

PG: They do on the southern side of the border.

CO: And this particular pack is pretty robust. Isn't it? The ones that you'll be getting in Canada -- Lake Superior, so what is appealing about those wolves?

PG: A number of things. One we know they came from the Mainland where they would have had an opportunity to hunt moose as well as beaver which are the two primary preys on the island, of our Royale. And then we know they are very prolific in having pups.

CO: Those wolves on Michipicoten island have been studied quite a bit because of the problem they created for the caribou on that island -- that we were just covering the story in January of the airlift of the caribou because there is not very many of them left and they were actually moving the caribou off the island because of how robust the wolves were and they were going to decimate that. So what do we know about the wolves who are on that island?

PG: Well I think the wolves that are on Michipicoten will struggle, if you will, as they have brought the caribou herd down to really extremely low levels. You would have to get the census numbers from your Canadian experts. But for my understanding basically by taking the four to six wolves that we may take off of the island that will help at least alleviate some of the food competition that's undoubtably going to happen in the future on that island.

CO: Would it be distressing for them to make this transfer? it is a different place. A different landscape. How will they adapt?

PG: I think that any time humans interact with wolves it's stressful to wolves. Certainly the capture process has that but they have a whole new territory that's about five times the territory they've been operating in -- given the size differential of the two islands. And our terrain is not that dissimilar to northern Ontario where at least two alpha animals came from.

CO: Just finally because well we have watch what has happened on Michipicoten. We're seeing what you're doing on Isle Royale which is trying to move animals around in order to balance out these populations. But how much meddling is too much? I mean do you worry about human intervention to I guess play God in a way to move this around has its downside?

PG: It definitely is a concern. It's partly why it took us three years to really evaluate the trade-offs between wilderness, management if you will, and hands on management of an animal population. So it's really looking at the biology side of the equation and the impacts of the vegetation and aquatic resources at the park that made us move forward with this decision. Part of the alternatives we looked at -- looked at maybe actually doing kind of a constant intervention where you would continually add animals over multiple years or whether you did nothing or whether we just waited a longer time to see if ice bridges formed. So we had a pretty full range of alternatives that we've looked at. What I can tell you is that the end of the day based on the best science and policy and our regulations the decision was made to do a one time intervention by re-establishing the pacts over a three year period.

CO: Alright we will leave it there. Ms. Green I appreciate speaking with you thank you.

PG: Thank you.

JD: Phyllis Green is the superintendent of Michigan's Isle Royale National Park. We reached her on the Door Peninsula in Wisconsin.

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Leaning Tower of Pisa

JD: The tower itself is great, sturdy, well-constructed. I mean it's been there for 800 years so hats off to the architects. It's just... I mean wasn't there someplace else they could have put it? It's not like they didn't know pretty quickly that the Tower of Pisa would become the Leaning Tower of Pisa. Just five years into construction while they were building the second floor in 1178 everyone noticed something was wrong. The whole project was being built on lousy soil which was giving way and destabilizing the whole thing. So they stopped building it. Waited about a century. Figured it had stopped tilting. And then completed it in 1372. On balance -- really not great work. But as I say grudging congratulations to everyone involved that the Leaning Tower of Pisa hasn't become 'the falling' or 'the smashed' or the 'fallen Tower of Pisa.' In fact there is some good news. Researchers who have been monitoring the tower for the past 17 years say it's actually un-leaning somewhat. After a project to stabilize the thing they say it has actually tilted back four centimetres over the past 20 years. And that's a huge relief given that not that long ago experts were worried that the whole thing would come crashing down at any moment. So to everyone who is inclined to keep the tower from becoming more inclined -- super job. And you know… keep it up.

[Music]

Part 2: Puns are the 'height of wit,' says best-selling author — but only in moderation

Remote tribe death

Guest: Jeffrey Gettleman

JD: At every level John Allen Chau was warned not to get close to the North Sentinel Island. He did not listen. And now the American man is dead. Authorities in India say Mr. Chau was killed this month by members of an endangered indigenous tribe when his boat got too close to their island. Few outsiders have ever been to the island and the isolated tribe is hostile to anyone who tries. Jeffrey Gettleman has been reporting on this story. He's a New York Times reporter based in New Delhi and that is where we reached him.

CO: Jeffrey just describe for us where this island, North Sentinel Island, is in the Andaman Sea.

JEFFREY GETTLEMAN: So it's about 30 miles away from Port Blair which is the main town in the Andamans. And the Andamans include 500 different islands. Most of them are uninhabited but the Government of India has been very strict and blocked access in many areas in the Andamans because they're trying to protect what they see as a very rare and traditional culture and they don't want these people to mix with outsiders at all.

CO: Who lives on North Sentinel Island then?

JG: There's about 50 people that belong to a tribe called the Sentinelese -- they are believed to have come from Africa many many many many years ago.

CO: But it's a protected island -- all these ones are where these tribes are living. The Indian Navy forbids people from getting even close, let alone visiting it. So how did this the man, John Allen Chau, how did he get there?

JG: Well it's hard to block off island in the middle of the sea. I think he had been planning this for a while. We found some blog posts that he had made and he expressed his desire to go back to the Andamans. He had been there before. He seemed really smitten with them. He was a bit of an adventurer. And according to the reporting we did today he planned this trip with the help of some local fisherman. He paid them a bit of money to take him towards this island. And he waited until night and they motored out into the sea and he came to the islands in the middle of the night, waited until dawn, and then made his first approach at daybreak. And it didn't go so well.

CO: What happened?

JG: From what we heard he tried to get on the island in a little kayak. He left the fishing vessel he was on, got into a little kayak, paddled towards the island, and the instant he got close -- the inhabitants started shooting arrows at him from bow and arrows. He then backed off, went back to the fishing ship, waited, went back to the island. Same thing happened. And this happened you know over a couple of days. And then the next thing the fisherman knew they were seeing a body being dragged on the beach by a rope. And it was the body of this man.

CO: Did the fisherman explain why Mr. Chau kept trying to go there? I mean did he not get the hint?

JG: I think he was some type of religious mission. The police said that he left behind notes that indicated that he felt very empowered by Jesus and that Christianity was really important to him and he went to the island carrying a Bible. So we don't think he was part of an organized missionary network or that anybody sent him to this island to Christianize the people but it was something that he got into his head was meaningful and he seemed very determined to do it. And in the past that same island has turned on people who have drifted up on their shores. Two years ago some fishermen were killed at the same place by the same people.

CO: Did he have an approach? Did the fishermen explain how he thought he could actually break through and actually be accepted in his visit?

JG: We've heard later that he had brought a soccer ball and some fishing line and was trying to present some of these as gifts to the people on the island. But anthropologists we had spoken to told us that they've tried this before and it didn't go over very well. And what's interesting is this is 2018 and here in the shadows of you know a growing country like India very modern in many ways technologically wired -- you have these protected areas with some of the most remote people on the planet. Their isolation is protected and their culture is deemed so supreme that nobody is allowed to interact with them.

CO: What have you learned about who John Allen Chau was?

JG: So he had a blog that explained his outdoor interests. He's traveled a lot. He loves hiking. He said he considers himself something of an explorer. He was based in Washington state. There was no mention of religion in the blog posts that I read. So he's a bit of an enigma. But that said I think he had a real wanderlust and an adventurous spirit and this place represents the ultimate adventure -- you know an island in the middle of the ocean where few people have ever gone, that's known to be hostile, it was like a test line right in front of him.

CO: Okay so the Indian authorities do their best to try and keep these remote islands away -- or people away from them. But an American has been murdered on one of them. So what are the authorities doing about that?

JG: It's really tricky because the Indian government has made a policy that they're not to interfere in the lives of the people living on these islands. So how do you prosecute a crime? How do you drag them off the island to collect witness statements and testimony and testify in a court? They also don't speak the language. I think there's only a few people that know anything close to the language that these people speak on that island. And some people -- I was receiving a bunch of emails today from groups that represent Indigenous people around the world and they were putting the blame a lot on him -- 'there was a group of people that should have been left alone, and it was this man's fault for ignoring that'.

CO: The people who helped him, the fishermen, with whom you spoke -- have they been charged?

JG: They have been charged as accessories to homicide. I guess it's pretty clear they knew they weren't supposed to go to the island. This is a very poor part of the world. These fishermen I'm sure were looking for any way to make money. And I think they did it purely because he offered to pay them and he did pay them.

CO: Do you think it's possible that this, with all the publicity around what happened to Mr. Chau, will actually maybe encourage others to say 'I want to give that a try, I'm an adventurous spirit as he was, maybe I can break through.' I mean does it actually attract more attention to them than deterrent?

JG: Yeah I think it definitely puts them on the map for a lot of people. But you know the barriers to pulling a trip off like this are very high. The Indians are going to be very vigilant now to make sure nobody tries this again. But that said maybe there's going to be some anthropologists or others that are really interested in who these people are and want to understand why they so violently resist any visitors.

CO: Jeffrey it's a fascinating and tragic story. Thank you for telling it to us.

JG: Yeah I appreciate the interest. Thank you.

CO: Bye.

JG: Bye.

JD: Jeffrey Gettleman is a New York Times reporter based in New Delhi. That is where we reached him.

[Music]

New name

JD: Just forget it. That is the advice from Canada's Foreign Affairs Minister for anyone struggling with the NAFTA deal's new name. The White House dubbed it the 'USMCA' for the United States-Mexico-Canada agreement. But while that acronym does an admirable job of putting America first it has the disadvantage of being almost impossible to remember. On-air attempts have run from the delightful "you-smacka" to alphabetic improvisations that I'd really sooner not repeat. But it does seem that Chrystia Freeland hasn't even been trying to remember the new NAFTA name. And so this afternoon in Halifax a reporter took the opportunity to ask the Foreign Affairs Minister why not?

SOUNDCLIP

REPORTER: I hear you continually make [inaudible] the new NAFTA. I thought it was the US...

CHRSYTIA FREELAND: Will we refer to it in our official documents as 'CUSMA' Canada-US-Mexico Agreement because the Canadian protocol is all Canadian treaties in Canadian documents begin with Canada. Which of course right -- that makes sense. I find that that can be confusing for people because there are so many names floating around. So I find it is most straightforward to talk about the new NAFTA.

JD: Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia Freeland was speaking to reporters in Halifax.

[Music]

In defence of puns

Guest: James Geary

JD: Puns -- you need only look to Shakespeare, James Joyce, and yes... the Bible -- to see how ubiquitous and exalted punnery once was and what company we at As It Happens keep. These days however we apologize for using them. But now one author says we should "excuse the pun" no longer. James Geary is the writer and journalist behind the book "Wit's End" -- part of which was recently published in The Paris Review. We reached Mr. Geary in Brookline, Massachusetts.

CO: James you are a new national hero or at least As It Happens thinks you are. Defending puns -- you know we have an audience, some of whom [laughs] just hate it -- they actually will write us just say, please! Please! Stop those stupid puns! And then another audience that says, oh we love your puns, we listen for the puns. Why is that? Why are people so contradictory and they get so angry about puns?

JAMES GEARY: Yeah. And I wish I knew. But I should say I'm deeply honored -- I've never been called a national hero for anything but much less punning. And in my own family and my circle of friends you know being a punster is not an occupation that's greatly valued. So I'm delighted [chuckles] that you have at least some listeners who see the importance of puns. I've never understood why people look down on puns so much. I think it might be because maybe they think someone who is making a pun isn't taking them seriously, or they're being glib, or flippant or something like that. But for me puns are the height of wits. And I know everybody says puns are the lowest form of wit but I think puns are the highest form of wit because they are excellent example of making novel surprising combinations from very very different things and bringing them together and producing something fresh and delightful and joyful. And even if they elicit a groan -- I think some of the worst puns are some of the best puns because typically people are groaning because the comparison or the association between the two words is so strange. But that just shows a really nimble imagination at work which I think is part of the essence of human creativity.

CO: Now in your article in order to prove that in fact it is a high form of art you went back and looked through history and you found some real punsters that might surprise people -- like William Shakespeare, like the Bible, Egyptian mythology. What did you find historically -- the place of the pun? Let's start with the Bible --what was one of the key puns you find there?

JG: Well we all talk about the Garden of Eden and how Eve ate the apple and gave it to Adam. But before, I think it was 1400s or somewhere in the early Middle Ages, no one really knew what fruit Adam and Eve ate in that mythological story of the Garden of Eden because in previous translations of the Bible the tree had only been described not as an apple tree but as the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. And St. Jerome translated the Bible into a simpler form of Latin in the early Middle Ages and in that form of Latin the word 'Malum' which means evil also happens to mean apple. So he put the word 'malum' in there and suddenly it became an apple tree and suddenly Eve after all these millennia had eaten an apple. And really he was just punning on the similarity between those two words which sound alike but have different meanings. And I think you know Shakespeare used puns because it's not only like to make a joke but it's actually a poetic device and that's why I say puns really are a testament to human creativity and imagination because when you make a pun you're making a really sophisticated comparison between two things that are not alike. It really is just the kind of commonplace example of human intelligence and creativity at work that goes back to, in my view, you know the beginning of literature and the beginning of the original human thought.

CO: Playing on words. And you talk about Shakespeare. I mean often he used punnery in order to I guess say things that he couldn't perhaps get away with especially about royalty -- I was thinking that now is the winter of our discontent made glorious summer by this son of York. And then the other ones you mentioned -- others about crowns he's able to work in some teasing remarks about the Royals by using puns, doesn't he?

JG: Yeah. And there's also all kinds of sexual innuendo that he works into his plays via puns. In Shakespeare's plays the characters who were making the most puns are usually the fool or the clown character. And I think he was there himself kind of playing on the fact that yeah everybody says puns are the lowest form of wit so I'm going to have the lowest character, lowest social status character in my play -- say it, but he's actually the wittiest in the entire play.

CO: And we're not by any stretch comparing ourselves to Shakespeare or James Joyce or any of the other punsters. But we have a great punster here, great writer, Chris Howden and just want to throw some of -- what we think are some of the more clever ones. We have these bills at the beginning of the show and they're all full of puns and here's a couple we want to share with you. "Anal-redemptive. A livestock farmer on PEI apologizes to a federal cabinet minister through a letter to the editor for calling the minister and aperture in the hind-quarters if you will." "As It Happens. The Monday edition -- radio that tries not to engage in orifice politics." [Laughter] Thank you for laughing. Now some of the others are groaning and saying stop it. Here's another one. "The sworded details. A valiant hero yanks a thousand year old Nordic sword from a Swedish lake. We'll speak with her dad about that because she's 8 and she's busy. As It Happens. The Friday edition. Radio that hopes you'll provide a saber second thought." Thank you.

JG: I think those are great. And what's so much fun about puns is that they're like riddles or puzzles -- the listener has to figure them out. And when you figure out a puzzle or a riddle you get this little jolts of dopamine in your brain -- and puns and witty remarks like that are sort of half-finished and they require the listener to complete the joke to get the pun. And I think it's interesting that we say you get a pun, it's something that you kind of have to go out and get and retrieve. And so I think you know people who get a pun or get a joke they're meeting the joker or the punster or the wit -- half way, and then getting an understanding of the pun or the joke -- they are performing the same kind of imaginative work, the same kind of mental or linguistic creativity by replicating in their own minds the same connection that the punster found. So I have deep admiration for your in-house punsters.

CO: James it's great to talk to you. Appreciate it. Thank you.

JG: Thanks for having me.

CO: Bye.

JD: James Geary is an author and the deputy curator at Harvard University's Nieman Foundation for Journalism. We reached him in Brookline, Massachusetts. And if you'd like to see a video of me 'pun-ishing' Because News host Gavin Crawford visit our website cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Dr. John

JD: Tonight a happy belated birthday to a man who celebrated a happy premature birthday a day late today. A year ago today they held a big party in New Orleans for the legendary Dr. John. A New Orleans City Council even designated November 21st "Dr. John Day." According to the NOLA.com website -- that's N-O-L-A.com. The musician commented "76 was great. 77 is better." And you would assume that he meant, that meant, he was 77. And it seemed he felt the same way. But today music writer John Wirt revealed it's not just Dr. John's music that is timeless. Mac Rebennack himself isn't great at time either -- because that is his real name: Malcolm John 'Mac' Rebennack. And searching through the archives of the New Orleans Times-Picayune newspaper Mr. Wirt discovered a birth notice for 'M.J Rebennack' boy, Baptist Hospital. Date: November 20th, 1941 -- which means first his birthday is not November 21st and 2nd second he didn't turn 78 today. He turned 77. On Tuesday after John Wirt's article Dr. John's publicist responded -- she said that back in the 50s the musician added a year to his age so he could play in clubs and that "Mac has rolled with it since his teenage years." Well in this case his 77th birthday is just what the Doctor mis-ordered.

[Music]

Mohamed Abdi

JD: It was a cold Friday night and 20-year-old Mohamed Abdi was at an Edmonton bar -- that is when friends say a bouncer kicked him out for being drunk. Mr. Abdi went to a nearby gas station. His friends lost track of him. Two days later his body was found near the bar, under a truck. His family believes he froze to death. Now they are calling for the closure of the bar. Abdul Kadir is Mohamed Abdi's uncle. He spoke with the CBC's Mark Connolly.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: How things like that can happen -- like you know we are in Canada and you know in like third world country they don't do that. Like you know someone who's not like his full sense, how can you just let him go? How can you... and with this weather. Like this weather can kill you within hour. And you know young guys they don't even wear jackets -- you know just a T-shirt. And he was like strong and whatever. He just believes he can beat the weather and sometimes he tries to just walk from there to home and because he's athletic or whatever but that's not the case because he was like intoxicated. When you see his body you think he's sleepy. His mom still thinks like he's just going to wake up. She asked us just don't touch him -- just let him warm, they said he is frozen, let him warm and then he will wake up. He will wake up. She still thinks like that. You know?

VOICE 2: What would you like to see happen?

VOICE 1: I would like that bar closed. Shut down completely. And the owners to not have any business -- any business. This young guy he was -- he was trying to join the military. That was his dream. Not our dream. That is what he decided. He wanted to join them. He was trying to do the 100 push up a day. And now...he's gone.

JD: Abdul Kadir is the uncle of Mohamed Abdi -- a 20 year old who was found dead near the Edmonton bar he was told to leave. The Ranch Roadhouse has expressed condolences to the family and says it is reviewing what happened. A statement read "The safety and security of our patrons and employees is our most important responsibility. Our employees took many steps to ensure Mo's safety -- including ensuring he left our establishment in the hands of a capable friend.".

[Music]

Part 3: After being deceived on Tinder, this UK woman wants a crackdown on fake profiles

Tinder lies follow-up

Guest: Irina Manta and Anna Rowe

JD: No one is immune to a scam. When the fraud involves money there are laws that can be used to go after the perpetrators. But when the deception involves sex there is often very little the victim can do. Last night we heard from an American professor who wants laws to punish people who dupe others on dating sites like Tinder. Here is Irina Manta.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: There are many individuals that are on multiple dating sites. Some of them from the very beginning of a relationship they don't tell their main partner that they're active in these other ways. And also there are other lies having to do with employment status or ability to have children or whether the person already has children. So there are a number of serious lies that somebody could tell -- where if the other person knew the truth they would not choose to have sexual intercourse with the person which really puts a big question mark on whether there was genuine consent.

JD: That was Hofstra University law professor Irina Manta speaking to Carol on the program last night. Tonight we will hear from a woman who was a victim of a so-called 'catfish.' We mentioned her last night. Her name is Anna Rowe. We reached Ms. Rowe in Canterbury, England.

CO: Anna first of all how did this man calling himself 'Antony Ray' -- how did he describe himself on Tinder?

ANNA ROWE: Okay so he's described himself as a divorced father. He said he'd been divorced for 15 months. He was looking for a long term meaningful relationship. He was 44 at the time. The words on his profile was that he lived on a plane but he wasn't a pilot or cabin crew. He said that he was honest, loyal, genuine -- and at the very bottom of his profile which was what caught me, because I really wasn't that interested in the photos, was that he hated poor communication and mind games. And it was literally those words at the bottom that really caught my interest because I thought he's been hurt before and he's not going to hurt me. And having been in a couple of relationships -- the worst case of cheating was probably with my children's father. I'd been really hurt in the past and so that really almost gave me confidence that he wasn't going to do the same.

CO: So a little over a year later -- months and months of involvement with him, including a personal relationship, you learned all that wasn't true, right?

AR: Yeah that's right. For the first three months our relationship if you like -- it wasn't a relationship at that point merely I was being groomed. I know this now in hindsight the great thing now that I can look back and I've learned about this personality type that he is which is he's a narcissist and he follows the exact patterns and traits of all narcissist. He groomed May for three months. He learned to read me at that point and he learned how to mirror back at me. He learned about me so he could mirror back me -- the person that I was which made him appear like that clichéd soul mate that you want. After three months we actually met in person and we had six months together -- on average it was a couple of times a week. It was a funny pattern -- it was [inaudible] the same story with all of the other women too -- that he was working abroad. And I think what people don't understand is narcissists -- they stick very closely to the truth. So any good liar sticks closely to the truth. Everything that he told us was very close to the truth. But he exaggerated how much he worked away. And that's what gave him his opportunity to see other women at the same time with me. So although he did go aboard for his job it wasn't as much as he said.

CO: I guess the most important thing that you learned was that he's married.

AR: Yeah. I mean that to me -- everybody focuses on the fact that he was married, my issue with him is the behavior that he's displaying by using this fake identity. You know? It wasn't just a dating profile with a fake picture. This guy had a complete set of fake social media accounts. The whole shebang. And he also had fake emails -- more than one. He had fake Skype accounts. He also had a dedicated phone for his bank of women that he was collecting. To me this is more important that the abuse -- you know the intention behind the fake identity. And the only purpose he had for that was to use and abuse women. It was an added level of deception for me that he was married. Don't get me wrong I think people that have affairs are [inaudible] I can't bear it. I was cheated on. You know I wasn't married to my children's father but we were together for nearly 10 years and we had two children. It broke me beyond belief when I found out that he'd been having an affair -- I was five weeks pregnant at the time with our second child. You know. And it's not just married people that do this -- it is single guys too they just feel entitled.

CO: So now you're speaking to others -- what are people telling you? What has it been like for you to be out there telling everyone how you were duped?

AR: Yeah. It's humiliating. And as Irina said it is so humiliating. And for that reason alone this is such an unreported behavior. I went to the police. I was in disbelief when I started out -- even when I went to the police I didn't know the depths of his behavior at that point because it was only when I went public after the police told me there was nothing I could do that the other women started coming forward. You know. And I'm now one of 14 women that we know of that have heard me and come forward going, 'oh my god! That's the guy that did the same to me.' People are not ashamed to come and talk to me because they know it happened to me and I am not going to judge them. And there is no support for people out there. And unfortunately there were far too many of us.

CO: So we heard from Professor Manta last night -- she is pushing for laws in the U.S. that would allow victims of online dating fraud to take the perpetrators to small claims court in the U.S. You're asking the U.K. government to ensure that people -- somewhere in these dating organizations they know who the person is -- who's online. How optimistic are you that you can get those changes?

AR: It's going to be a tough one but I'm optimistic that we'll get there. You know it's a big part of my campaign. And there's a lot of MPs here that are in agreement with this too -- that social media in general needs to start taking some corporate responsibility for their users because currently they do nothing. The responsibility has got to start being taken somewhere. And I've taken a lot of stick -- victim blaming with this is crazy. But I also feel really privileged that I now have all these other victims come and talk to me because they trust me.

CO: It is an extraordinary story. And I appreciate you sharing it with us. I think that helps other people who may be gone through the same thing. Thank you for that.

AR: You're welcome. Thank you.

CO: Take care. Bye bye.

AR: Bye bye.

JD: Anna Rowe lobbying the British government to clamp down on fraud on dating sites. We reached her in Canterbury, England. And for more on this story go to our website cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Lockdown drills

JD: In the United States preparing for the possibility of a school shooting is now just as routine as running a fire drill. Lockdown drills are simply the new normal in America. And with that in mind Mother Jones Magazine decided to interview young kids about what it is like to prepare for a school shooting. The magazine put a video together interviewing children from the ages of 5 to 11 about lockdowns and what to do when the drill happens. Here's a clip.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: It is a drill where you sit in the corner and you're quiet.

VOICE 2: You hear the PA system say either this is a hard lockdown drill or a soft lockdown drill.

VOICE 3: You don't hide like right in front of the door because if it was a real lockdown they could see our faces through maybe the window of the door.

VOICE 4: It is kind of like if a stranger comes in and he has a gun or something and wants to kill somebody and you have to like hide and lock every door and stuff so he won't come in and kill you.

VOICE 5: Basically if someone comes in or if they have dangerous stuff on them -- that's for the teachers and the kids not get hurt.

VOICE 6: Because I've stuff on the news like kids being attacked by other students. Like that's bizarre to think that that could actually happen.

VOICE 7: I'm worried about that if they too much noise the stranger will come in and kill us.

JD: The voices of children in the United States aged 5 through 11 talking to Mother Jones Magazine about lockdown drills in the classroom.

[Music]

Jennifer Charlesworth

JD: There is a new child and youth advocate in British Columbia. Her first report looks at young people’s drug use including fatal overdoses among young people. On tomorrow's program Jennifer Charlesworth will explain one of the recommendations outlined in that report -- youth specific harm reduction services. Here's an excerpt from her conversation with Carol.

VOICE: I would say that the most important thing is to imagine a young person who is using. So think of someone that you care about that is a young person that you think is really special and for various reasons they are now -- have an addiction and they are using substances. Where would you want them to be if they were continuing to use substances? Would you want them to be in an adult site? Or in an SRO hotel somewhere or in the back alley? Well no -- we wouldn't want that for kids. So let's imagine instead that there is a place that young people can go, non-stigmatizing, it's non-shaming -- there's the nurse practitioner there. There's access to medical care. There's access to somebody who's going to be there when you are using. And also, people that understand mental health care. A place to shower. Those kinds of things.

JD: Jennifer Charlesworth is British Columbia's new child and youth advocate. She will be on As It Happens tomorrow night.

[Music]

Dead fish cruise

Guest: Daniel Skjeldam

JD: When people go on a cruise they think about what they are leaving behind. Not necessarily about what the ship itself leaves behind. You may remember our interview last year with the German environmental group that had looked at dozens of cruise ships traveling in Europe. An author of the report told us that the industry was creating massive amounts of pollution and that often the companies themselves were doing very little to fix that. Well one Norwegian cruise line says it has invested heavily in green technology and has announced a new fuel that is going to help power some of their ships -- dead fish. Daniel Skjeldam is the CEO of the company called Hurtigruten. We reached him in Oslo.

CO: Mr. Skjeldam how well dead fish help you power some of your massive cruise ships?

DANIEL SKJELDAM: So first of all Hurtigruten's ultimate goal is to operate our ships completely emissions free. We are the world's largest expedition cruise line. We operate a lot around the poles. We've seen climate change happen in front of our eyes. All of the employees and staff in the company is very conscious of operating as sustainable as possible. So we've done a lot of things over the past years to take us in this direction. We started with not using any heavy fuel oil. We are building the world's first hybrid ships which are covered by batteries and diesel. We were the first cruise line to go single use plastic free. And now we are converting at least 6 of our older vessels to run on a combination of batteries LNG and bio gas.

CO: Okay so this is where the dead fish come in. Where is your source of biofuel?

DS: Our source of biofuel is organic waste such as rotten fish or waste from the forestry industry. So this will be a complete renewable fuel -- this will be the greenest fuel that is available in shipping -- considered completely climate neutral.

CO: So you say it's a combination though -- it's a hybrid. So you have biofuels. Liquid Natural Gas. And battery power. What's the percentage? How much biofuel will actually be used in these ships?

DS: So we are aiming for it to begin with at least 15 percent of LNG consumption will be bio gas. And hopefully this will be a number which increases. We are limited in the beginning by the sheer availability of this fuel source that with over consumption level we are hopefully able to build up an entire industry which can fuel much more than our ships but also a larger portion of the total energy consumption in other ships.

CO: I just want to get this -- so you're saying 15 percent will be biofuel?

DS: To begin with yes. But our aspiration is that it will be a much larger portion of the LNG that will be derived from bio gas in the future.

CO: But you will use liquid natural gas from fossil fuels right?

DS: Yes. So a portion of it will be LNG which is the fossil fuel although it is fossil fuel that has a lot less CO2 emissions than diesel -- that again has a lot less CO2 emissions than heavy fuel oil. So LNG is a pretty good start but we want to grow the bio gas consumption because it is the greenest available fuel out there.

CO: What percentage of liquid natural gas will you be using?

DS: So LNG will be the rest of the fuel. So if you use 15 percent bio gas -- the rest will be LNG but then we also have batteries -- we will be able to operate the ships for extended periods of time only on electricity.

CO: I'm sure you know that is disputed that liquid natural gas has a considerably lighter fossil fuel emissions footprint since -- I'm just looking at one study from the University of Manchester that says that basically if you look at the lifecycle of liquid natural gas it's about the same as other fossil fuels so I'm just looking at 85 percent. How quickly will you be able to get to something less than that?

DS: Hopefully that's not going to take us many years. And as you say it's a debate number. If you look at marine gas oil as we are using which is a very clean fuel compared to the heavy fuel oil that most of the shipping and cruise industry using -- the reduction of CO2 emissions from moving to LNG is significant. LNG is considered to have 75 percent less CO2 emissions than marine gas oil.

CO: Is that lifecycle emissions?

DS: [Inaudible] emissions are on site. But as you say it is debated on how much lifecycle reductions you get. But most science reports says that you have significant reductions from going to LNG.

CO: But now you say hopefully you will be able to improve -- what is the 'hope' based on?

DS: The hope and analysis is based on when you get larger takers of bio gas you are also able to build up an industry. There is much raw material out there to fuel the ships but you need customers who is willing to pay extra for the bio gas to get the industry up and going. And then the suppliers will be able to [inaudible] to be able to make more of these very very green bio gas.

CO: But if I understand correctly it means that if people aren't willing to pay the extra premium -- the cost of going on one of your ships which will cost more to fuel then there won't be an industry for this right? It depends on consumers being willing to pay the extra price.

DS: No. That is not what I'm saying. It depends on actually: buyers, other cruise lines, other shipping companies -- willingness to pay a little bit extra for a much much greener energy source than they're using today. So if there are more takers just by over volume it is possible to start building an industry on this.

CO: But why would they do that? There's not much of an incentive for others to join you in this is there?

DS: I definitely think that the customers of the future will be able, will be willing, and will demand that their cruise line of choice is operating much more sustainable than today. I definitely think that the days of the heavy fuel oil in the Arctic and north are on the way to being a thing of the past. I think the companies of the future will be operating on a lot more energy efficient than they are today.

CO: How long before you'll get your first ship that has this hybrid power on it? When will it be on the water?

DS: That will be on the water in first quarter of 19. So it will sail in March 19. And the first ship with the combination of LNG, battery, and bio gas will sail in the end of 2019. So this is not technology which is far in the future, this is technology which is now.

CO: Alright we'll leave it there. Mr. Skjeldam. Thank you.

DS: Thank you very much. Good questions.

CO: Bye bye.

JD: Daniel Skjeldma is the CEO of Hurtigruten. We reached him in Oslo. If you'd like to hear that interview again or share it we have posted it to our website.

[Music]

Curling and drinking?

JD: Even if you're not a curling fan you have probably heard about what happened at the Red Deer Curling Classic last weekend. A Canadian team including an Olympic medalist was kicked out of the tournament. The club manager said they were "extremely drunk and there was a broom breaking and swearing." Members of the team have since apologized for the behavior. And once again we will hear an interview from CBC's Edmonton AM host -- Mark Connolly spoke with Canadian curler Wally Ursuliak who famously took the sport to Japan. He says he doesn't know what the team was thinking and had some thoughts about curling and drinking.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: That's usually after the game that you know you have a coffee or a drink or whatever and socialise -- that's the part you know people talk about. But curling and the booze doesn't really go together if you're a competitor.

VOICE 2: Well I know in a bonspiel -- I've been in a few over the years, I mean back in the day people would be smoking on the ice. Plus they'd have their drinks on the ice. That's not in a real competitive area. But it's certainly from the social aspect of the game it was well accepted right?

VOICE 1: That's right. If you're a competitor there's no way that you can drink and curl. So I don't know what the hell these guys do -- playing a pretty prestigious spiel is what 35-thousand dollars up for grabs there. And you know teams from all over the world were there. China. Korea. And Japan. And there was the teams from usually coming from Sweden -- Switzerland. And that's really a disgrace.

VOICE 2: What about the history of buying drinks for the other team?

VOICE 1: No. [Chuckles] Well we played Ernie Richardson 20 some odd times and he beat us the first 11 and I'm sure as hell he wouldn't want to be buying us or take a drink from him after the lost of 11 games in a row. So I don't know. I don't know. You know somebody should have told them -- disolve the game, don't go on the ice at all.

JD: That Canadian curler Wally Ursuliak on CBC Radio's Edmonton AM.

[Music]

Skin Heels

JD: Until today we were all pretty clear about the most horrifying possible footwear out there -- crocs or uggs. I know yes -- I know they're comfortable. So is unbuttoning your pants after a meal but I'm reprimanded for that every day after lunch. Anyway croc and ugg wearers good news, sort of -- you are in the clear because of some new footwear that goes many many steps too far. "Skin heels." Skin heels are thigh high silicone boots coloured to match a white person skin tone so as to appear to be someone's actual legs. The part where your foot goes is shaped like an actual foot -- toes and all. But the heel -- the heel is a spike designed to look like it's part of your actual heel like your foot itself has grown a long pointy protuberance. Like you're some kind of high fashion dino-human hybrid. It's art. And like that heel it has a point. Steven Raj Bhaskaran, one of the designers told CTV "the intention behind the shoe was really to question what it means to be human." Bhaskaran and Hannah Rose Dalton run a brand called Fecal Matter -- which specializes in boundary pushing fashion -- along with questioning the meaning rather of humanity. Bhaskaran also told Vogue "the relationships that humans have with material possessions is something that we are trying to play with." And part of that playing is the cost -- 10-thousand dollars. I don't know but maybe this pair of boots isn't a nightmare to you. Maybe it's a dream come true -- which means you're the type who gets off on the wrong foot.

November 21, 2018 Episode Transcript

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