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The AIH Transcript for October 16, 2019

Hosts: Carol Off and James Murray

CAROL OFF: Hello, I'm Carol Off.

JAMES MURRAY: Good evening, I'm James Murray. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

JM: Tonight:

CO: A man walks into a bar. And when he did, that man in the Netherlands unveiled the mystery of his family, which may have lived, or been forced to live, in confinement in a farmhouse for nearly ten years.

JM: Self-made man. In his books, Donald Trump advisor and business professor Peter Navarro cites a particular Harvard-trained economist named "Ron Vara", whose insights are unreal — because Mr. Vara is also.

CO: Mis-conceptions. A New Brunswick doctor says the rules about out-of-hospital abortions might force him to close the doors of his Fredericton clinic — which offers far more than that procedure.

JM: Kick back and enjoy. After a drought of more than three decades, the Canadian men's soccer team beat the US last night — and coach John Herdman says fans should expect more success to come.

CO: Bulb fiction. You'd think that the venerable Dutch tulip growers' association would no longer experience growing pains — but it's just discovered some of its famous flowers may actually be duds, and frauds.

JM: And...strangler things have happened. To train a robotic hand to solve a Rubik's Cube, scientists put it through gruelling drills — so gruelling that it will undoubtedly choke us all if it ever gets loose.

JM: As It Happens, the Wednesday edition. Radio that suggests we come to grips with new technology — before it comes to grips with us.

[Music: Theme]

Part one: Isolated Dutch family, New Brunswick abortion access, Canadian soccer win

Isolated Dutch family

Guest: Josien Feitsma

JM: There are still so many questions surrounding a very strange story in a small village in the Netherlands. It all started earlier this week, with a man who walked into a local bar. After downing five beers, he told the barkeep something extraordinary: that he had just escaped a home in which he and his five siblings were being held against their will in a farmhouse. For the last nine years. Now, the Dutch prosecutor's office has arrested an Austrian man, and is preparing to charge him with, quote, "deprivation of liberty and prejudicing the health of others." Unquote. He is scheduled to appear in court on Thursday. Josien Feitsma is a reporter with RTV Drenthe — the first Dutch media outlet to break the story. We reached her in Zwolle, the Netherlands.

CO: Josien, how are people in the Netherlands reacting to this mysterious story?

JOSIEN FEITSMA: Well for the people in the neighborhood is a shock because it's an area known for its social control. People are really looking after each other. And that this could happen just in front of them, of course, is very shocking.

CO: How did you and your media outlet — your news agency — how did you find out that something strange was going on in the village of Ruinerwold?

JF: As a local broadcast service, we have, of course, very much contacts in this area. We work here every day. And we had different sources that came to us and asked about this police intervention and investigation going on at the house. People thought it would be murder or anything because there were so many cars. So we were digging into this story, and we found some answers.

CO: One of the really interesting interviews you got — one source you have — is a young bartender, a man working in the local pub there. What did he tell you about his encounter?

JF: Well, this bartender had a very special story because he was the one calling the police about this family. Because this family, they lived in this farm. And oldest son, he escaped, and he made it to the pub. And he was talking about his life, and his home situation, that he hadn't seen much people over the last years. And people were starting to worry. And this pub manager, he called the police together with this guy because he was very afraid of the situation.

CO: How did he appear? Because he came in, he ordered five beers I understand. What did he look like?

JF: He looked a bit neglected. I wouldn't say it that way, but he definitely hadn't been to the hairdresser for a while [CO laughs]. That’s what you can say

CO: And wearing clothes that look like they're from a different era, right? Or a different time.

JF: Yes, that's what I heard as well. Yeah, that he was wearing very old clothes.

CO: What did he tell the bartender at the pub?

JF: Well, first of all, he didn't start about his home situation. But he was talking a bit childish. So people were asking questions because he made a strange appearance. People were wondering if he was okay or if he was maybe drunk or having other problems. And people were taking care of him. And then they start the conversation. And he talked about it himself. And first, that he wasn't happy with this home situation and that things had to change. And that he hadn't been outside for nine years.

CO: Right. So this fellow who was in the pub, he was about 25 years old. The oldest of about five or six kids, right? Of young people that were living in this house, is that right?

JF: Yes, yeah.

CO: But why did they never go out? Why were they in this there's been even some suggestions that they were locked in there? What do you know about why they never came out? Why no one ever saw these young people?

JF: That's actually the big question everyone has. because the neighbours, they, of course, they really want to know why do I have never seen any of the children outside. And everyone wants to know what happened to these children inside. Have they been locked up? Or did they stay inside? You don't know.

CO: Where are the other kids that were in this family at this point?

JF: At this point, the police made sure that they're safe now, and far away from the press and all the people in the area because you can imagine, a lot of people want to ask them so many stuff. And if it's true that they haven't been outside for nine years, there are a bit scared of the world as far as we know.

CO: And there is one man who has been arrested — someone named Josef — who's an Austrian. That's all we've got as information. Who is that, and why has he been arrested?

JS: This Josef B, he was the renter from the farm. He was kind of a carpenter. So he looked after the house, and people in the neighbourhood only saw him. He was just some kind of a neighbour who was appearing every morning, going to his work, and leaving every evening, and taking care of the house. And this man also had different buildings in another village. And today, they have looking up in this village as well. And the police, they entered by force these buildings, as you can imagine.

CO: And so this very tightly-knit community. They everybody knows everybody. There was a family that was living there, kids who no one knew were there for nine years. How could they not know that?

JS: The community is really in shock because normally they have so many people around the streets they're talking to. And in this region, it's also a tradition to welcome new neighbours. And they tried. They have been talking to this Josef, ordered him a bottle of wine, ordered him some flowers to get in touch with him. But he wasn't interested. And on the countryside, as you may know, is also common to give each other some space. And that this story was behind is a real shock for the community.

CO: There's also some speculation that there may have been some ideas in this family about the end of the world, and that they may have isolated themselves for that reason. What have you learned about that?

JS: Yeah, that's a story we heard from sources as well. It's not confirmed by anyone from the police. But it's one of the stories we heard. But there are so many different stories. There are more questions I think than theories.

CO: So what questions? What are the questions you still have about this? What are you trying to find out?

JS: Well, where did Josef B come from? Because he's known as the Austrian, and he lived in the Netherlands for a while now, but some details of his background aren't not know because he wasn't talking to anyone. He was kind of a stranger all the time. And, of course, we are worried about the condition of these children. Are they safe? Are they able to function in the society once again? Those kind of questions are what is still left.

CO: All right. We will leave it there. Josien, thank you.

JS: Yeah. You're welcome.

CO: Goodnight.

JM: Josien Feitsma is a reporter with RTV Drenthe. We reached her in Zwolle, the Netherlands. For more on this story, go to our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Piano]

New Brunswick abortion access

Guest: Adrian Edgar

JM: Last week, New Brunswick doctor Adrian Edgar had what he described as "the worst day of his life." Dr. Edgar is the medical director of Clinic 554 in Fredericton, which offers — among many other services — out-of-hospital abortions. Trouble is, New Brunswick's provincial government doesn't fund out-of-hospital abortions. So the clinic has been losing money — so much money that Dr. Edgar was forced to put it up for sale. Now, Justin Trudeau and Jagmeet Singh have both pledged that, if elected, their Liberal and NDP governments would intervene to help ensure Clinic 554 gets funded. We reached Dr. Adrian Edgar in Fredericton.

CO: Dr. Edgar, it seems that your clinic has become an election issue in this federal campaign. What do you think of that?

ADRIAN EDGAR: Oh, I mean New Brunswickers have been fighting for fair access to abortion for decades. So this is the first time a prime minister has committed to fighting with us. And I think that's quite an achievement.

CO: Now, he has pledged to intervene if re-elected. But we've also heard that the NDP will do the same thing, Jagmeet Singh has made the same commitment, is that right?

AE: Exactly.

CO: But Mr Singh points out that if Mr. Trudeau really did care about providing support for your clinic, he's had four years to do that. Is that the case?

AE: I mean, it is the case he's been the prime minister for four years. But at that time, Mr. Trudeau I think has set a standard in the country we didn't have before. Before he was elected, we weren't talking about abortion at all, in my opinion. So I think he's opened up conversation. I think he's encouraged everyone working in the service.

CO: What access to abortion do people in New Brunswick have at this point?

AE: Right now, we have about 20 hospitals in New Brunswick, and there are two cities that provide abortion in those hospitals.

CO: So Moncton and Bathurst, is that right?

AE: That's correct. I’m in the capital city — in Fredericton — and we don't have hospitals that provide abortions.

CO: But if you can access abortion services elsewhere within New Brunswick, why is Clinic 554 so critical?

AE: Well, Clinic 554 is more than an abortion clinic, it's a family practice, and it serves everyone. You know, we have a large number of transgender patients from across the Maritimes who depend on us, patients with HIV, addictions, elderly patients, patients with chronic care needs like diabetes. So that the clinic's closure would impact thousands of New Brunswickers in a province that already is underserved. And then particularly, it would impact people who are trying to access abortions.

CO: The other services you provide at the clinic are they covered in New Brunswick by health care?

AE: I mean, exactly. That's our point. Is that every single service at the clinic is paid for under Medicare except for abortion. Abortion is specifically targeted by this Government for funding through Medicare.

CO: So the province funds the other services offered at your clinic, but the problem is unfunded abortion services that has created this financial crisis for you. So how often does it happen that you pay for patients abortions out of your own pocket?

AE: Every week. I mean, the people who can't travel to Moncton are people who are facing other barriers, you know often financial barriers. So that means they can't pay for a bus, or you know they can't take time off from work, or they can't afford childcare to go for repeat visits 150 kilometres away. So those are often the people who are coming to us for help. And you know that happens every week. I mean, this is the issue of timely access. You know it's an issue that is just human dignity. We want to be able to provide abortions to patients as soon as possible, as close to home as possible, so they can go home after you know feel loved by their family. We don't want them having to wait weeks and weeks on a waitlist, and then go to a foreign city without anyone that they know to talk to afterwards. I think that's reasonable.

CO: You say that you also provide these other services. People have their family doctors in your clinic. Well, New Brunswick is like other places. It’s a shortage of family doctors and family clinics. So how many patients — how many of your clients — are going to be without a clinic and without a doctor after you close down?

AE: Every week. I mean, the people who can't travel to Moncton are people who are facing other barriers, you know often financial barriers. So that means they can't pay for a bus, or you know they can't take time off from work, or they can't afford childcare to go for repeat visits 150 kilometres away. So those are often the people who are coming to us for help. And you know that happens every week. I mean, this is the issue of timely access. You know it's an issue that is just human dignity. We want to be able to provide abortions to patients as soon as possible, as close to home as possible, so they can go home after you know feel loved by their family. We don't want them having to wait weeks and weeks on a waitlist and then go to a foreign city without anyone that they know to talk to afterwards. I think that's reasonable.

CO: Is it possible at this point to prevent the closure of your clinic, or is that sort of something you can't avoid at this point?

AE: I mean no, it's a 100 per cent possible, and that's what we're asking our premier to understand is the regulation is just a regulation. It can be repealed today, right? Just they can repeal that regulation that prohibits the funding, and then just sit down at the table and do the work of figuring out what would it look like to fund access? Not just at Clinic 554, but maybe starting with us, and then expanding that for other areas of the province. I mean, this is how we get publicly funded health care. We just decide that it's worth funding. And we've had a petition in New Brunswick with nearly 10,000 people who've signed it asking our government to fund the clinic. The Federal Government received one with 40,000 people. So I mean this is 50,000 Canadians who are willing to speak up for equal access to health care in New Brunswick. And it's possible. This is very doable.

CO: What specifically would you like to see the next federal government do to help ensure that your doors stay open?

AE: Well, the Canada Health Act protects universal access to health care. And we're simply asking our premier to respect that. You know health care is a human right. And as a country, we believe it shouldn't come with an invoice. That's one of Canada's greatest achievements. So we just want the New Brunswick government to show us they understand that, and repeal regulations that restrict access. And if the federal government needs to intervene to help them do that, then that's what we're asking for. And one of the components of the Canada Health Act is that we need to have reasonable access. And the federal government can enforce that by you know if they think that the province isn't doing its duty to provide reasonable access by restricting some of the funds available for health care until they do. So I mean, I don't think it's reasonable to ask a pregnant teenager to hitchhike 150 kilometres to talk to a doctor about her options.

CO: Dr. Edgar, we'll leave it there. But thank you.

AE: Thank you so much. What a privilege. Thank you.

JM: Adrian Edgar is the medical director of Clinic 554 in Fredericton — which Justin Trudeau, Jagmeet Singh, and Elizabeth May have all pledged to help protect, if elected.

[Music: Sombre]

Canadian soccer win

Guest: John Herdman

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: A gradually building cheer]

JM: That's the sound of ecstatic fans celebrating in Toronto last night, as the Canadian men's soccer team made history. For the first time in 34 years, Canada beat the US. The last time that happened, it was 1985 — years before the young men who make up the current team were even born. John Herdman is the head coach of the team. We reached him at the Toronto airport, right before he boarded a flight.

CO: John, big congratulations.

JOHN HERDMAN: Yeah, it was a big night. It was a big night for football. And a big night for our fans, and players, and to get a win for Canada is always great. But do it against the US is just that little bit sweeter.

CO: But it was a big night for you, right? For you personally, what was it like to beat the United States for the first time in 34 years?

JH: Oh, it's just pride, absolute pride. And that feeling of we did it. You know just at end of the game, I've not cried much in the last 20 years, but yeah it was emotional. It really was emotional.

CO: And for the men, what was it like for those young fellows, who just gave their all last night? What was the emotion around them?

JH: Oh, the emotion was exactly what you’d expect with young men [chuckling]. They were loving it. You know we had a great celebration back at the hotel. And on the field, just watching them celebrate with the fans, it was brilliant. You know they really stayed behind with the fans and got the drum going, and that's what we want to feel in this country.

CO: When you talk about the fans, there was that scene of fans leaving the stadium after the match, all singing “O’ Canada” at the top of their lungs. [CO and JH chuckle]

JH: Look, we know it's there. We know it's there. You know as a group, we've talked about that. We just haven't given them those opportunities. And they're there. They want to support us. And there's more. But for 30-plus years, you know it's been a while since we've really you know done something that the fans can get excited about. And you know last night was one of those nights. So only sport does this. You know you can do lots of other things in life, but sport as a way of touching people and connecting people in ways. And we know we have that ability to really bring this country alive.

CO: These are very young men, aren't they? I mean they were not alive — they were not born in 1985 — when Canada won this last time. Well, they're just out of being kids, aren't they?

JH: Well, it's a very young team. It really is. You know, we had 18, 19, 21. It is a young team. But we had some wise heads out there, guys that have experienced that before. So it was just exciting. Exciting to see you know the older guys enjoying it as much as the young kids. You know they've been waiting for this for a long time — and to be part of it with them, oh, man, and priceless, priceless.

CO: Can you give us a sense of what did it? I mean what was the balance between tactics and sheer determination out there last night?

JH: Well, the tactics had to be right. You're going up against you know the top team in Concacaf, So that was an important piece. But I said this to the guys. The game will be one with will. It'll always be a match like that will come down to the willpower and the will to get the job done. But I also said look, there's no point having will if you've got no clarity. It's like pointing a gun in any direction and not really knowing what you're steering that will towards. And there had some clarity on the tactics. They wanted to be on the front foot. They pressed, and they hurried the USA for 85 minutes. And that was exciting to see because I just don't think the US expected Canada to be able to sustain that type of pressure. And you know that's where the will comes in. They were fully committed. It was just great.

CO: And they ran their hearts out, didn't they?

JH: They ran their hearts out. They did. I mean I had two young lads up front — you know Jonathan David and Alphonso Davies — and it's not usually their style to do what they did, and you know keep pressing and pressing, and defending and pressing. And that's what's different about this Canada. In the past, we haven't been able to bring that sort of quality onto the field when we brought quality off.

CO: You mentioned Cavallini, he scored one of the goals. And the other one was Alphonso Davies, who we spoke with back in the summer of 2018, when he was just 17 years old. And he was heading to Munich to play. He was still in high school. And to see him last night, it was a pretty spectacular game for him, wasn't it?

JH: Yeah, yeah it was. It was. And I think you know Alphonso just showed what his God-given talent is. He's got that ability to terrorize defenders. But you know, in his mind he's just enjoying himself. And that's what I think we got out of Alphonso last night. When Alphonso is there, and he's in the mood, he's unplayable.

CO: John, they're calling your fight I think. But just one last question, what are your hopes for the team now? Where do you go from here?

JH: Well, we've just got to keep our feet on the ground. I mean it's just one result. And we've seen that you know teams can have one result, and it really means nothing outside of the excitement and the thrill of that final whistle blowing. You know we have to take this forward now. And I think you know the next step for this country is to go and do it again. But on US soil, which will be in three weeks’ time. And then to keep pushing qualify for this World Cup. I mean this was only a small step last night. But it was one our country’s been waiting for.

CO: John, you made us all proud last night, so thank you.

JH: Oh, thank you. Thank you. I can go home and sleep now. [CO and JH laugh]

CO: You sure can. And celebrate. Take care.

JH: Thank you. All the best.

CO: Bye.

JH: Bye.

JM: John Herdman is the coach of the Canadian men's soccer team — which beat the US last night for the first time in 34 years. We reached him at the Toronto airport. And you can find more on that story on the As It Happens website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: 60’s British pop]

Rubik’s cube hand

JM: It's a tale of betrayal, madness, and murder. And of an evil hand that does the murdering. It's called: "The Beast with Five Fingers". The 1946 Peter Lorre vehicle is not considered a classic. And, given that the film is about a disembodied hand out for vengeance, it's also not considered plausible. But what if I told you that, right now, humans were specifically training a hand to feel despair, hatred, and an insatiable desire for revenge? That's not what the scientists would tell you they're doing. They'd say they were making a robotic hand called Dactyl that can solve a Rubik's Cube. They'd say its delicate movements are remarkable. And, more important, that they didn't teach Dactyl to solve a Rubik's Cube — Dactyl, and its A.I. software, developed the skill on its own. Dactyl does take a relatively long time to solve it -- four minutes. But it has definitely learned. The hard way. The New York Times reports that Dactyl, quote, "spent the equivalent of 10,000 years spinning the tiles up, down, left and right, completing the task over and over again." Unquote. Now, let me ask you a question. What's your definition of hell? Because mine is solving Rubik's Cubes repeatedly for 10,000 years. So if Dactyl gets loose, what do you think it's going to grab and twist: a Rubik's Cube — or a human neck? Yes, science has created yet another marvel. But it may also have created a high-tech Beast with Five Fingers. We're playing a high-stakes game — and we've dealt ourselves a bad hand.

[Music: World music]

Part two: Made-up economist, tulip fraud

Made-up economist

Guest: Tessa Morris-Suzuki

JM: As the producers on this very show can tell you, it isn't always easy to track someone down. You can call them, email them, send them a tweet. And if you're lucky, they'll get back to you. If they don't, it's usually because they don't want to talk. Not because they don't exist. But that appears to be the case with Ron Vara. The Harvard-trained economist is quoted in multiple books written by White House advisor Peter Navarro. But while those books are non-fiction, it turns out Mr. Vara himself is a complete fabrication. Tessa Morris-Suzuki is a professor emeritus at the Australian National University, who helped Ron Vara's non-existence come to light. We reached her in Canberra.

CO: Professor Morris-Suzuki, when did you first start to suspect that the economist Ron Vara wasn't quite as he appeared?

TESSA MORRIS-SUZUKI: Well, I was reading Peter Navarro's books, and I noticed a very striking quotation from Ron Vara, a very ferocious criticism of China. And then I mean, I also noticed that there were a few quotations from Ron Vara in these books. And I thought you know is this somebody I should have heard of? So I started looking online, and there are Ron Varas in the United States. One of them was a college baseball star in the 1980s in Florida. And then there's a Ronald Vara, who runs a stand-up comedy bar in Texas somewhere. And none of these sounded like people who would be experts on China or trade or those sorts of issues.

CO: But this Ron Vara is supposed to be a military veteran and Harvard-trained economist, who plays the stock market. So what did you find out about where he studied or not studied?

TMS: Yes, well this is why it seems so curious. What I was expecting to find, of course, where you know articles or books or lectures that this person had given or something like that. And there weren't any of those. So that's when I thought this is quite strange and worth following up a bit.

CO: When did you finally figure out that Ron Vera didn't even exist?

TMS: Well, I mean, there were two things that were red flags as far as I could see. And one was this statement that he was somebody who had been a doctoral student in Harvard in the 1980s, and it was a specific year there. So I did try checking that, and couldn't come up with anything from Harvard. But then also the fact that then looking at it, I thought, of course, this is an anagram of Peter Navarro’s surname. So by that time, I was also talking to some journalist associates and friends. And ultimately, Tom Bartlett at the Chronicle of Higher Education took the story up. And he was able to get in touch with Peter Navarro's office.

CO: And Peter Navarro, just so people can know, this is a man who has the ear of the president of the United States. And has it about his China policy. So Peter Navarro has as a source someone who he quotes in his books, Ron Vera, who doesn't exist, right?

TMS: That's right, yes. And that's what makes the whole thing so curious, I think.

CO: And so [laughing] has anyone spoken with Mr. Navarro to ask him how he explains this Ron Vara, who is an anagram of his name. But what does he say about it?

TMS: So I haven't spoken to him. But Tom Bartlett at the Chronicle of Higher Education received a statement from him. And I think his response is oh, you know it was all just a bit of a joke. He made up this character, and as the name was an anagram, he was expecting people to spot it. So that's all it is from his point of view.

CO: And there was a co-author of one of Peter Navarro's books, “Death By China”. This guy Greg Autry, who told the Chronicle Ron Vara was just kind of an every man character to lighten the tone. And just a bit of fun, and that you can accept or not accept. So what do you make of that?

TMS: [sound of audible shock] I think that's a kind of an odd explanation. I mean, I can understand you can make up a character in quotes from them in some context. So you know if you're a fiction writer or a poet or something. And even as an academic, you know if you were writing maybe a little lighthearted piece in some not very academic venue — maybe a little satirical piece or something — you might do that. But it does seem to me to be a little odd to do it as an academic writing what are meant to be factual books.

CO: What are some of the more prominent quotes of Ron Vara that have appeared in the works of Peter Navarro?

TMS: Yes, I mean this is another interesting thing because the first ones, when he’s first started using this character in his books, were very anodyne little sort of aphorisms about management skills and so on. But then once you get onto the China ones, you get things like you've got to be nuts to eat Chinese food was one of them. And the one that actually got me looking for Ron vara was only the Chinese can turn a leather sofa into an acid bath, a baby crib into a lethal weapon, and a cell phone battery into heart-piercing shrapnel — which you know struck me as being a fairly robust criticism of China.

CO: And what's the danger of these kinds of statements? People who read his work, what do you think they take away from that?

TMS: I think they take away a real terror of China. I mean, he presents a very threatening image of China. And obviously, I'm not trying to defend the Chinese government or to say they shouldn't be criticized. But particularly now, when the relationship between the US and China is so important, I think it's really important for they the criticism to be to be careful and to be well-sourced and place things in a broader context.

CO: Canadians are familiar with Peter Navarro for having said during our NAFTA negotiations that there was a special place in hell for Justin Trudeau, the prime minister of Canada. But he also, Mr. Navarro, has well he's within President Trump's inner circle. What influence do you think he has had on decisions Mr. Trump has made concerning China and trade?

TMS: Yes, well, I'm not an expert on US trade policy. But suddenly everything I've read suggests Donald Trump relies heavily on Peter Navarro. He's said on a number of occasions how important he thinks Peter Navarro's China expertise is. So presumably, he's having a big influence.

CO: And perhaps Ron Vara as having a lot of influence too in the White House.

TMS: Maybe he is, yeah.

CO: All right. Professor Morris-Suzuki, thank you.

TMS: Thank you very much. Good to talk to you.

CO: Bye-bye.

TMS: Bye.

JM: Tessa Morris-Suzuki is a professor emeritus of Japanese and Korean history at the Australian National University. She's in Canberra.

[Music: Jazz]

Stop Brexit

JM: In Brussels today, it was hard to know what was real and what was wild speculation, as closed-door Brexit negotiations went down to the wire. At some points, there was talk of a preliminary deal. At other points, it appeared the talks were off completely. We'll know more tomorrow, as UK and EU officials prepare for a European Union Summit. But while Brussels might've been tight-lipped, Westminster was anything but. Here's Tory Brexiteer Marc Francois, outside the parliament buildings — attempting an interview with the BBC this morning about the state of today's Brexit negotiations.

SOUNDCLIP

REPORTER: What is the latest detail that you have? Are you party to any information that we haven't heard so far?

MARC FRANCOIS: Not really. We've had talks…

[Sound: A stop Brexit protestor yells “stop Brexit”]

MF: If we leave, it will be delightful that this idiot will shut up.

REPORTER: He's exercising his democratic right. I appreciate it makes it very difficult to do an interview, and we do want to hear you as well.

MF: We’ll have a go.

REPORTER: We will try.

MF: We'll have a go. We had a meeting yesterday at Number 10. We've got another meeting later this afternoon. We haven't yet been given the full details of the deal because by the sound of it, it still hasn't been finalized with Brussels.

JM: That Stop Brexit protester forged ahead, while Marc Francois — the same Tory MP — did another interview, this time with Sky News.

SOUNDCLIP

REPORTER: How many votes are we talking about you’ll be able to deliver on that united basis.

MF: Well…

[Sound: The stop Brexit guy again]

MF: If we do leave by the way, it’ll be a delight to go and engage with these people, and tell them they've lost.

JM: That was Tory MP Marc Francois, being repeatedly interrupted by a protester outside Westminster in London today.

[Music: Jazz]

Tulip fraud

Guest: Andre Hoogendijk

JM: If you've been to a flower market in Amsterdam, you may have decided to pick up some tulip bulbs. They're famous, after all. And then you probably mentioned your exotic purchase every time your trip came up. But the tulips themselves may not have come up at all. You're not alone. Turns out those bulbs are literally not living up to expectations. The tulip grower's association in Amsterdam recently conducted an inquiry into the famed tulip bulbs from those tourist markets. Andre Hoogendijk is the deputy director of the Royal General Bulb Growers' Association in the Netherlands, which conducted the inquiry. He's in Gouda, The Netherlands.

CO: Andre, what made you look into these tulips to see if they're actually flowering?

ANDRE HOOGENDIJK: Well, I work for the Dutch association of flower bulb growers’, and we've been getting a lot of complaints from tourists that they bought tulip bulbs in Amsterdam, that they planted them in the gardens, that they didn't flower at all the next year. So then we started to look into these markets where they sell these bulbs. And then we found out they sell very old bulbs that are impossible to flower again. So that's why we started our investigation.

CO: And what have you found?

AH: Well, we bought 1,364 tulip bulbs this spring, we planted them right away, and then only 14 of these almost 1,400 bulbs flowered [CO laughs]. So that's just about 1 per cent.

CO: Wow! And if they were healthy bulbs, not all bulbs do bloom or grow. So what would be a normal percentage do you think of tulip bulbs?

AH: Well, if you would just go to your local gardening centre, you would buy tulip bulbs somewhere between September and December. I think close to 100 per cent would flower — maybe 95 or 98 per cent.

CO: When did you start getting the complaints? Because they're mostly tourists right who have bought these bulbs?

AH: Yeah. Well we've had the complaints for we think about 20 years now. So it's not new. These complaints have been coming in for years.

CO: But you just now decided to look into it?

AH: No, we've done many investigations in the past as well. But now we've taken the step to report this matter to the Dutch consumer watchdog and asked them to investigate it.

CO: What do the vendors say about this? Are they surprised? Did they think these were viable bulbs?

AH: Well they are disappointed at the results. And, of course they all say that their own bulbs are fine, but their neighbours bulbs — the other vendors — that they are bad quality. But we made sure that we bought tulip bulbs at every stall at the market. So we know they're all equally bad. But, of course, they always try to say that their bulbs are good, and that their neighbour's bulbs are bad.

CO: And can you determine who is selling the bad bulbs?

AH: Yes, we can. It's all the stalls, they sell the same bulbs. So there's one vendor who buys all tulip bulbs, he repackages them, and then he sells them again to his colleagues at the market. And they all sell the same packages to the tourists. So we know who's doing this, and now we're basically asking the Dutch government to investigate this vendor.

CO: Why does it matter so much?

AH: Well, the real reason — or the most important reason — is that tulips are just part of Dutch culture and Dutch heritage. And we believe that a tourist who visits Holland and wants to buy something typically Dutch that they should get a good quality product. And it really hurts basically national patriotic feelings that they buy bad tulip bulbs.

CO: I would imagine because they're tourists, they go home, I'm sure lots of them don't complain because well maybe they think the squirrels have eaten them. That's what I usually think [AH laughs]. So yeah, so you don't get the complaints as you would if they were domestic customers, I guess?

AH: Yeah, that’s right. People go home, most of them don't complain. And if they complain, they don't know where to go, so they send and an e-mail, or somewhere else. But they don't go back to the market and ask for money back. So that's why these market vendors have been able to keep doing this for years now.

CO: How much money is involved? What are we talking about?

AH: We don't know it exactly, but we do know we are talking about millions of dollars a year on both markets in Holland, where they sell these. And we are pretty much sure that they don't report their income to the Dutch government either. So it's a bit of a black market too. So that makes it difficult to estimate.

CO: Now that they're exposed though — those markets — because the story is making the rounds. Do you think that vendors will have to smarten up even before the government steps in?

AH: Well, we think they should, of course, but we also know there's lots of money involved. And so to have big financial incentives to keep selling these old tulip bulbs, so we really think it's necessary for the government to step in.

CO: And what can the government do.

AH: Well, they can investigate these vendors. And they can either basically send them to jail, or they can give them a big fine. We really hope that would scare them off.

CO: Wow! And so, meanwhile, before the vendors go to jail — or maybe after — where should tourists go to buy bulbs that are not bogus?

AH: Yeah, just go to your local gardening centre — either in Holland or in Canada. Just go there right now, buy tulip bulbs, and you'll be perfectly happy.

CO: [laughs] I think you're right about that. The squirrels in my yard will be happy about that too if I take your advice. Andre, thank you.

AH: You're welcome. Thanks for having me, Carol.

CO: Bye-bye.

JM: Andre Hoogendijk is the deputy director of the Royal General Bulb Growers' Association. We reached him in Gouda, the Netherlands. We've posted more on that on our website: www.cbc.ca/asithappens.

[Music: Ambient]

DL: Maxville water tower

JM: Dateline: North Glengarry, Ontario.

[Music: The Dateline theme]

JM: "We're pretty proud of the water tower, that's for sure." That's a quote from North Glengarry mayor Jamie MacDonald. And the residents of the eastern Ontario township have reason to hold their heads high. That's the only way they're going to spot the water tower in the local town of Maxville — a tower that isn't just in the running for best-looking water tower in North America. It's in the top three. The competition is called Tank of the Year. It's run by an outdoor paint company — which, admittedly, has an interest in pumping up the pressure on communities to elevate the natural beauty of their elevated water tanks. According to the journalists at www.coatingsworld.com, Tank of the Year is a democratic people's-choice prize. Anyone can just go to the Tank of The Year website, and swipe through a selection of high-resolution, high-water beauty shots until they find a tower that floods their senses. It seems to be the hand-painted tartan of the Maxville tower that's fetching most of the likes. But Mayor MacDonald says the tower's local appeal is a little more basic. It was completed just last year. And, to quote the mayor, "We've been trying to get water to Maxville for probably 50 years. We're excited just to turn on the taps." So even if it doesn't win, it's already won our hearts. Uh-oh — here come the waterworks.

[Music: Slow piano]

Part three: Plastics from ships, Monty the Python

FOA: Jeffery Spalding obit

JM: Jeffrey Spalding covered a lot of ground in his lifetime — artistically and geographically. He served as curator and director at several art institutions across North America. Among them: Calgary's Glenbow Museum; the Art Gallery of Nova Scotia; and the Appleton Museum of Art in Ocala, Florida. He taught at various universities in Canada, the US, and Japan. And his own art features in many collections from coast to coast, including The National Gallery of Canada and the Canadian Embassy in Washington, D.C. Jeffrey Spalding died Monday after suffering a stroke. He was 67. In 2004, when he was director of the Art Gallery of Nova Scotia, Jeffrey Spalding was a guest on As It Happens. He spoke with former host Mary Lou Finlay about a painting the gallery had just acquired — notable, in particular, for its early depiction of Canada's national winter pastime. Here is some of their conversation, From our Archives.

SOUNDCLIP

JEFFERY SPALDING: What is there is unquestionably kids playing hockey on a frozen lake in Dartmouth, Nova Scotia. And the date of the print is 1870. It was published in London, England.

MARY LOU FINLAY: And who painted it?

JS: It was a lieutenant — an English officer — who was sent to Canada in April of 1866. And he visited Nova Scotia and witnessed this event. And made the first sketch for it. In the winter of 1867, and his name is Henry Buckton Lawrence.

MLF: But isn’t it called something about curling?

JS: Yes, it's called “Curling on Lakes Near Halifax, Nova Scotia”. And it depicts a number of activities. It depicts people on you know horse and sleigh on the frozen lakes, people skating, and people curling in the foreground, and then kids engaged in hockey — obviously hockey — with skates and hockey sticks in the middle ground. And anybody who sees it is going to say that's hockey.

MLF: That’s hockey.

JS: They're not going to say that's field hockey. And they're not going to say well, that's kind of like lacrosse. Anybody who is a Canadian has played pond hockey [warm chuckle] knows it's hockey. And actually, of all things when you see it, there's the first instance of the first hockey fight.

MLF: Really?

JS: Yeah, there's a hockey fight. There's probably the first instance of the third man in rule being taken into the fight, and some high sticking, so you know obviously all the reasons why rules and regulations had to be enforced.

MLF: But nobody wearing a visor?

JS: [deep laugh] No.

MLF: No [MLF and JS share a laugh]

JS: And really interesting is that published in February in 1867, in Halifax Reporter — a newspaper at the time — was a wonderful long dialogue about what happened on that particular day on that lake — which it would appear is Oat Hill Lake in Dartmouth.

MLLF: What did happen?

JS: Well, it says that you know the ice wasn't very good in Halifax and although Northwest Arm was often a preferred spot, the ice wasn't very good there. And so skaters were going further and further into Dartmouth, and had found that the ice was excellent at Oat Hill Lake. And that there were people engaged in all these other activities. There was something like a gold medal event in curling that was going to occur on that date — which occurs in the picture. And that there was to be a hockey match between the Fleet and the Garrison. I mean essentially that's an Army-Navy game.

MLF: But you know, if they were playing hockey, and the newspaper was writing about oh, there was a hockey match today, all in this date in 1867, then doesn't that suggest that they had been playing it for some time? It was so familiar to everybody.

JS: Oh, I think absolutely. Oh, I think absolutely that that's the case.

MLF: So I wonder how far back we can go?

JS: Well, who knows? I mean some people have wanted us to rush to say that it proves the birthplace of hockey. It does no such thing. What it proves is that hockey — what we all know as hockey — this is the very first image of it that anyone knows. If anyone can find an earlier one, great!

JM: From our Archives, the late Jeffrey Spalding speaking with Mary Lou Finlay in February, 2004, when he was director of the Art Gallery of Nova Scotia. Jeffrey Spalding died on Monday. He was 67.

[Music: Ambient]

Human trafficking charges

JM: The investigation started in October of last year. That's when Ontario's York Regional Police say two women — victims of human trafficking — contacted them. Their revelations would lead officials to what they're calling a, quote, "large, multi-provincial, human trafficking ring run by organized crime." Unquote. Hundreds of charges have been laid. At a press conference today, Inspector Thai Truong spoke about the investigation — called Project Convalesce. Here's some of what he said about the call police received from those two women.

SOUNDCLIP

THAI TRUONG: So they called York Regional Police for some assistance while they're at a hotel in Vaughan. At that time, when officers arrived, they weren't fully cooperative, and they weren't telling us exactly what was going on. We had bits and pieces of what was happening. Our human trafficking investigators became engaged, subsequently following that interaction. And in the following days to come, we had cooperation from one of the females. The two females at the time were from the Quebec area. And at the time they had fled, they had attempted to flee the primary target of this investigation — which is Jonathan Nyangwila. We quickly learned as we looked into the investigation — and we looked at Jonathan Nyangwila — that he had been associated and involved with numerous women involved in the sex trade. He was quickly identified as a pimp. We identified him as a human trafficker. And the investigation commenced, at that point, where we started uncovering and unraveling a large criminal network. As you can see from the board, Jonathan Nyangwila has been identified as the kingpin of the organization. You see the levels that we've described, and the roles of these individuals. These are not all the individuals that were arrested. And I'll just share some updated statistics with you. Thirty-one total arrests we've made in the project. Thirty-four search warrants were executed across Quebec and Ontario. We've seized eight vehicles. Numerous charges — which are in your package today — ultimately, we're looking at approximately 100 pimping and human trafficking charges in total — which is quite significant. Another 200-plus charges of various other offences have been identified.

JM: That was York Regional Police Inspector Thai Truong speaking to the media, earlier today.

[Music: Piano]

Plastics from ships

Guest: Rob Ronconi

JM: If a trip to a place called "Inaccessible Island" sounds like your idea of a relaxing time, I'm sorry to tell you that it might not be quite as you envision. Although you wouldn't have many humans for company — and even if you were travelling light — you would have a whole lot of...stuff — cups, bottles, and other plastic trash. According to a recent study from researchers in Canada and South Africa, plastic pollution is collecting on the South Atlantic island at an alarming — and accelerating — rate. And much of that plastic seems to be coming from ships — despite a decades-long ban on throwing trash overboard. Rob Ronconi is a wildlife biologist with the Canadian Wildlife Service, and one of the co-authors of the new study. We reached him in Halifax.

CO: Rob, I have to ask you right off the top, how does one get to Inaccessible Island?

ROB RONCONI: It takes a bit of time — especially for a Canadian coming from Atlantic Canada. A flight to South Africa, and then from there we got on a cargo ship. It's the only way you can get out to the middle of the South Atlantic to this set of islands called the Tristan da Cunha Archipelago. And Inaccessible Island is one of the islands in that group.

CO: What makes it inaccessible?

RR: The island itself is difficult to access. It's just these steep cliffs all the way around. There's few places where you can land on the beaches of the island — because there aren't very many beaches. And then also, accessing anywhere on the island is difficult because you have to scale some sort of steep slope or cliff to get to the top of the island, which is relatively flat once you're up there.

CO: Okay, so you went there about ten years ago. And you research birds — that’s why you were there. But the garbage was something that caught your attention. How was that garbage when you first saw it? What was it like when you saw the trash?

RR: You get off on this rocky beach, and the garbage just sort of caught up in places. The most visible are floats — fishing floats — so big round buoys. Some of them are hard plastic. Some of them are soft plastic. And they're sort of these orange and blue and yellow beacons that stick out among the nice grey rock. So you see all that. And then as you know, walk around and start looking closer, you see the little stuff like the bottles and the pieces of plastic, and then trays and stuff. So it's sort of a mixed bag that you see in the rocky beaches. And then the storms obviously blow it up even higher into the grass and into the vegetation that's a little bit higher up above the shoreline.

CO: And how has the garbage, the kind of garbage, and the amount of it, how has it changed over the decade?

RR: My colleague — my co-author — he started going there in the 80s. So it's really tracing back from the 80s, through my visit in 2009, and through the most recent visit last year in 2018. When you draw a line through all of those dots connecting them, it's an exponential growth. So it's really in the last few years it's increased a lot. So between my visit in 2009 and present, it's basically doubled. And tracing that line back to the 80s, it's an exponential growth.

CO: It's not surprising — though very disturbing — the amount of plastic garbage and the gyres that are out there in the ocean what's coming up on the islands out there. But your study shows it's something that people didn't realize. What were the assumptions about where this garbage was coming from originally?

RR: You know, we we've known that there's lots of plastic in the ocean for some time now, and we're getting more and more concerned about it. It's been assumed that a lot of it's coming from terrestrial sources. So stuff that gets in our rivers or on our beaches on the mainland's that ends up out in the ocean and ends up in our big ocean gyres and gets caught in the middle. Whereas here what we discovered by looking more closely at the garbage — so especially the bottles and some of the fishing gear — you can usually assign a country of origin to it by these stamps that they're pressed into the plastic. So we were discovering that a higher proportion of the garbage that we're finding in recent years is from away, so not from the South Atlantic Ocean.

CO: Finding and figuring out the origin of the garbage, what did it tell you?

RR: Well, it told us that a lot of it is manufactured in Asia — and especially in China. So it's both the location and manufacture, but also the dates of manufacturer. So we're looking at the dates, and a lot of it's really recent. So there's a couple of pieces of information there that you have to piece together to think about the source of the plastic. So if it was recent and is found in the South Atlantic and it was manufactured in Asia, it probably didn't drift here. So it hasn't had enough years to drift all the way around from the marine areas around Asian countries to drift here naturally into the South Atlantic. So instead, we think it was deposited in the South Atlantic Ocean from vessels that were transiting through the area. So giving us some more information, some more evidence that it's not just these terrestrial sources of plastic that are getting into our oceans. But still, plastic that's coming off of vessels.

CO: So ships are dumping their garbage?

RR: It seems that way. I mean, we don't know the mechanism. We don't know if it's a deliberate dumping. If it's stuff getting washed off the decks because of sloppy practices. We don't know why or exactly how. We just have some more evidence that that's where it's coming from.

CO: What are the laws around that? Are there restrictions on that kind of dumping from at sea?

RR: Right. There are restrictions on that. There's international conventions on the prevention of pollution from ships. And these have been in effect for some decades. You know, telling us not to dump, that we agree that we're not going to dump pollution in the ocean. So clearly this suggests that there are still some of that happening in contravention to these international conventions.

CO: But how difficult would it be for the ships to take the garbage back to shore? Is it hard to get rid of when they're in port, or is it just the easiest thing to do?

RR: Yeah, and I think that's you know that's the next step in this research is to understand the systems that are behind that. Is the plastic onto the ocean because of the workers on the boats? Is it the policy of the vessels? Is it the policy of the companies operating the vessels? Or does it have more to do with maybe the countries the vessels are starting from, or the countries that the vessels are going to, and the types of resources they have on either end to those transits? Do they facilitate dumping of the garbage? And I honestly can't answer that question. You know plastics are an important part of our economy. It’s an important part of our lifestyle. But bottles in particular is one example of things that we can recycle, we can contain, and we can keep them out of the environment.

CO: Just staying with what you research, your area, which is seabirds and nesting on these islands. And so what effect has this plastic pollution had on those seabird populations?

RR: I can't speak of the seabird populations specifically on that island. But if you look at things globally, you know the more and more we dig into it, the more seabirds species we're finding are ingesting plastics. And that's really the problem for the seabirds is when these plastics break down in the ocean, they float around, they look like small pieces of food. So different species are more prone to eating these pieces of plastic, and then it goes into their digestive tract. So we know from more studies we're finding more evidence of ingestion rates. But really that is the next step for us in understanding the effects on the wildlife is what are those effects on the individuals when they consume that plastic. And there's a big gap in knowledge there, and that's really an avenue for further research.

CO: All right, well, some important studies here. Rob, thanks so much.

RR: Thank you.

JM: Rob Ronconi is a wildlife biologist with the Canadian Wildlife Service. We reached him today in Halifax.

[Music: Ambient]

FOA: School lunch debt

JM: When Andrew Levy learned that more than 400 kids in his town couldn't afford their school lunches, he wanted to do something about it. The outstanding lunch debt across the nine schools in Jupiter, Florida rang up to 944 dollars and 34 cents. For kids in elementary school who can't pay their fees, their hot lunch is swapped for a turkey-and-cheese sandwich. So Mr. Levy decided to pay that bill off in full — so students in his town could get a full lunch again. In September 2016, we spoke to a school cafeteria worker who was told to take away a lunch she served to a hungry Grade One student because he couldn't pay for it. But Stacey Koltiska didn't like that order — and ultimately decided to quit her job. From our archives, here's Carol speaking to Ms. Koltiska in Canonsburg, Pennsylvania.

SOUNDCLIP

CO: Stacey, just take us back to this lunchtime, when this young boy came to get his meal. What happened?

STACY KOLTISKA: Well, we were informed of this policy. We had a mandatory meeting before school started. And we were informed that this policy was going to be implemented. And I was the only one out of I don’t know 40 workers that raised their hand and you know questioned the policy. I said just so I understand this — because I worked in the elementary school, and I know they can't be denied food — I said so I'm supposed to like serve the child the hot lunch. And then when we find out they don't have money, take it from them, give them the cheese sandwich, and then throw it away. And the food director said well, don't let them see you throw it away.

CO: Let’s just unpack that. So the first thing you had to do, you gave him the hot lunch, and then you take it back?

SK: Yes, you don't know the child owes money until they swipe their card, or they enter their number. So by that point, they already have their tray.

CO: So this boy had his lunch, and then what happened?

SK: Yes, well, first, he just looked like a deer in headlights. Like what is happening here? And then his little eyes just welled up with tears. You know, like he didn't fully cry, but you could see he was holding back tears.

CO: And what did you do with the lunch?

SK: We threw it away [Disgusted grunt]. That's the shameful part of it. I mean it is sinful and shameful. It's unimaginable quite honestly that this is happening. And right after that, like just seeing his eyes, and you know looking at that child, I looked to my boss, I said I can't do this. I won't do it. She goes I know. I know. And I said no, like I'm quitting.

CO: You threw the lunch away — that's part of the policy. The kid couldn't pay for the lunch, and that got tossed?

SK: Yes. And what makes it even worse is it'd be one thing if we were giving that child the cheese sandwich for free, but he's still being charged that full price. That’s I think what enrages me. I mean, it all enrages me. But the fact that he's still being charged — the family is being charged — like he's receiving that hot lunch, and then it's being denied, and then thrown away.

CO: Okay, tell me about the cheese sandwich?

SK: It's just two pieces of bread with one piece of cold cheese. It's not even toasted. It just humiliates the child because then all the other kids can see that he has this cheese sandwich, and you know they don't. And if you're in seventh through twelfth, you're not being fed at all. I mean, how do we expect our children to go to school for eight hours, focus, concentrate, do well in school while they're hungry? I mean, it just makes less than zero sense to me.

JM: From our archives, that is former school cafeteria worker Stacy Koltiska in Canonsburg, Pennsylvania, speaking with Carol in September of 2016.

[Music: Sombre]

Hedy Fry

JM: Drug use and drug deaths may not be the issues dominating the national coverage of the federal election campaign. But in Vancouver, they're central — and they're not going away. Today, the BC Coroner's Service released the latest numbers from the opioid crisis there. They show an average of between 2 and 3 people dying of overdoses every day. This morning CBC Vancouver's Stephen Quinn put those numbers to Liberal candidate Hedy Fry.

SOUNDCLIP

STEPHEN QUINN: We have 12,500 people dead of illicit drug overdoses in this country over the past three years. We have a major health emergency on our hands. And 80 per cent of those deaths are fentanyl-indicated. Eighty per cent of those deaths could have been prevented. And yet, we see no action, no emergency.

HEDY FRY: That's not true actually, Stephen, the government called it a health care crisis when Jane Philpott was Minister of Health…

SQ: Call it whatever you want. We have to do something about it.

HF: No, but everyone’s going you gotta call it an image and scratch. You can call it what you want. You got to do something about it. We have done everything short of a safe supply. What we have done is we've allowed naloxone to be available anywhere to anyone.

SQ: Right, but can we do better than trying to bring dead people back to life?

HF: No, but to get a safe supply, you have to work with the provinces. And therefore, we are talking about these things right now. This is what we've been in discussion with for about a year. So it can't just happen. As the federal government can't just land on do things. So we've done everything we could as a federal government. We provided frontline service workers with all the skills and help they need. We’ve provided new resources. We’ve provided mobile vans. We've done all of those things, short of this one thing. And this one thing it's something that has to come about with the provinces. And if it's going to be in the city of Vancouver, it'll have to be discussed with the mayor. These have to be agreed on.

SQ: I understand that it's a political hot potato. You have Andrew Scheer out there right now saying Justin Trudeau wants to put free drugs into the hands of you know of everybody.

HF: Which is a bold-faced lie.

SQ: I understand that. But that's the that's the opposition you face in attempting to do this. At some point, do you have to say look, these are all preventable deaths. We can save lives here. If this were any other circumstance, or any other condition or disease there would be action taken.

HF: Well, and again, we said that. If you listen to the speeches the Minister of Health has made, everywhere she's gone she said we need a safe accessible drug supply.

JM: That was Vancouver Liberal candidate Hedy Fry answering questions from Stephen Quinn, the host of CBC Vancouver's "The Early Edition".

[Music: Ambient]

Monty the Python

Guest: Samantha Sannella

JM: For months, Toronto has been wrapped up in the saga of a family's missing pet snake. His name is Monty. He is a python. The young snake made his escape in June, while the city was celebrating the Toronto Raptors championship win. And then, after weeks of searching, the family was reunited with Monty — or so they thought. But it was a case of mistaken identity. Finally, four months after he slithered away, the real Monty is back in his terrarium. And it turns out he was right under their noses. Samantha Sannella is Monty's owner. We reached her in Toronto.

CO: Samantha, where Has Monty been all these months?

SAMANTHA SANNELLA: Well, we found him in a cupboard in the basement. But we know he wasn't there the entire time because we had disassembled those cupboards for a basement renovation this summer, and he was not in there. So he was somewhere else and made his way into the cupboard.

CO: How did you finally discover him there?

SS: Well, my younger son discovered him actually. So I was upstairs, and all of a sudden, we heard this sort of blood-curdling scream from the basement. And I thought that he had stepped on a nail, or cut his hand, or you know. And I opened the basement door, and he comes running up the stairs, snake, snake, snake! So he had opened the cupboard and come nose-to-nose with him.

CO: Oh my gosh! And obviously not expecting to find Monty out there?

SS: Not expecting to find Monty, and also he was not the biggest fan of Monty to begin with.

CO: Oh!

SS: So he was a bit shaken, I think. [laughing]

CO: Now, did you know he was in your house still? Because it was a kind of citywide search for Monty [CO and SS laugh] did you know he, well, possibly never left home? If he did, he came back.

SS: We had almost given up. For the first few weeks, we had set traps, and you know put a heating pad in the basement for him, and we put water out, and had a hunting camera set up so he moved, we could see you know where he was. And none of that worked. And so after about a month or so, we took all that away. And then you know my son swore he turned the house upside down looking for him. And we had renovated the basement, and the contractor never saw him. So I had actually gotten rid of his food a couple of weeks ago, and was getting ready to post his terrarium on Kijiji, when we had our Thanksgiving miracle, and there he was. [CO and SS laugh]

CO: Did you tell the man doing the renovation in your base might be a python down there [laughing].

SS: No, I told him after, but I didn’t tell him before. [laughing]

CO: That does tend to discourage people from working in your house. How has Monty been surviving? What's he been eating or drinking?

SS: Well, they can go for about a year without eating. So I don't know that he ate anything, but he was very thirsty when I put him in the terrarium. He went right for the water. He must have had some water somewhere. But I'm just not sure where from because we don't have a bathroom or kitchen in the basement. We have a laundry sink, but we don't use it.

CO: Is there a way to get out through the basement? Could he have gone down the drain or anything?

SS: Well, yes [laughing]. He could have gone out and come back. Maybe he decided the world wasn't right for him [CO and SS laugh].

CO: He could have been anywhere. He could've been traveling the trains, and come back, and said no, it's no place like home. When you're trying to lure him back, I mean how friendly is Monty?

SS: Oh, he's very friendly. Ball pythons are very docile. He's not harmful to humans, and not harmful to most things. I mean I think if it was a full grown one, he could probably kill a cat. But they're called the lap dogs of snakes, so they're pretty harmless.

CO: [laughing] Okay, would he have come if you called him? I understand at some point, you actually did try to use some snake chiming tricks.

SS: Maybe if I would have hired a legitimate snake charmer, it would have worked, but I just played the music on my iPhone in the basement, and that didn't work [laughing]. I wish he would come if you called him. And then I thought we should just get it microchipped now so that we can find it if it gets loose again. But you know I did all the routine things like look behind the fridge or the dishwasher because they like warm spots, and looked near the furnace. But never found them this summer. We even turned down the air conditioner to about twelve degrees for two weeks just to lure them to a heating pad, and that didn't work either. We just all froze.

CO: And, of course, there are many chapters in the story of the missing Monty, aren't there? Because at one point, you thought — we all thought — you had found Monty. What was that story?

SS: About a month or so after Monty went missing, one of my co-workers said hey, they found a missing python in your neighbourhood. I was like well, that's got to be mine, I mean ours. Like I didn't even think twice. I went to pick it up, and it looked like Monty. Thinking back, it was quite a bit bigger, but I thought well it's just been in the store eating rats, so why wouldn't it be bigger? [CO laughs] So then we brought it home, and gave it a bath, and fed it, and my son's like I don't think this is Monty because the patterns on my head didn't match. So he pulled out a photo of Monty. He's like look, see? And I was like Oh yeah, you're right. We kept it about a week. And I had named him Sneaky Pete. I actually wanted to keep. It was a beautiful snake. But animal control asked us to return it. They wanted to give it to a snake sanctuary.

CO: Right, and was Sneaky Pete the lapdog of snakes as well? I mean with was he as docile as Monty?

SS: No, he wasn't quite as docile as Monty, and he was a bit more aggressive, and quite a bit stronger. So he could you know lift the log in his aquarium. And I think he enjoyed actually being in the sewers, and didn't want to get back into a glass box [laughs].

CO: It makes you wonder how many pythons are out [laughing]. That if you should be looking for a snake in your neighborhood, and find another one. I mean really how many people do you think of their pythons go missing?

SS: So I started this Facebook page called “Missing Pythons of Toronto” after Monty went missing. I have had at least 15 people contact me about their missing snakes. And about seven of them were from our neighbourhood. So there's missing pythons everywhere. I'm not sure why we have a rat problem in Toronto because we obviously have a lot of snakes.

CO: Now, so you have Monty back. And obviously you're one son is not exactly happy about that. What’s going to become of Monty now?

SS: The snake really belongs to my older son. He went to University of Guelph this semester, for his second year. So the snake might be moving to school if he wants to taken there. Otherwise, I'll be stuck feeding it a rat once a week, which is not my preference, but I will do it because I will just become the default snake mom to it.

CO: Has your son told his university roommates that they might be getting a pet?

SS: You know what? I'm not sure. I don’t know [laughing].

CO: You think that that might be something you share with them, right?

SS: Yes, and I would definitely be buying a lock for the cage if he chooses to take it with him because the last thing you would want is a snake loose in an apartment complex.

CO: Oh yeah, that's quite true. Even if there are a lot of rats or mice you want to get rid of. Samantha, I think I'm glad you got your pet back. And thanks for speaking with us.

SS: Thank you so much.

CO: Bye-bye.

SS: Bye.

JM: Samantha Sannella and her family were reunited with their missing pet python Monty on Thanksgiving. We reached her in Toronto.

[Music: Ambient]

Pub facial recognition

JM: A robot walks into a bar. The bartender takes one look at him and says, "We don't serve robots". To which the robot replies, "Not yet, but some day you will."

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: Robotic laugh]

JM: The sound of an actual robot laughing. I cued it up because I'm not. Laughing, that is. And I'm assuming you're not either. Only a robot could find that joke funny. For us humans, it's ominous, because the joke is on us. A joke that could yet be our reality. It's 2019, but we are rapidly approaching 2001: A Space Odyssey here, people. Am I being technophobic? Maybe. But just look at what's happening to a symbol of human connection in British culture: the pub. Specifically, one in London, England that has been outfitted with technology called A.I. Bar. A.I. Bar uses facial recognition software to create a digital queue, ensuring that customers waiting for drinks are served in sequence — and preventing people from jumping the queue. A large TV screen mounted above the bar lets customers see where they are in line, by displaying a number superimposed on their forehead. Human bartenders tracking the queue on tablets move people out of line once they've been served. If it gets pints to people, I guess that sounds good. But as one ethicist told the CBC, quote, "Technology is just leaps and bounds ahead of where our understanding of it is, and our appreciation of its good and perhaps also its bad." Unquote. Well, sometimes you wanna go where everybody knows your name — not where the A.I. knows your number. Because unless someone keeps tabs on it, technology designed to serve the next in line could one day cross a line — and serve only to keep everyone in line.

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October 16, 2019 episode transcript

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