Ambassador who testified against Trump is 'as radical as oatmeal,' says former diplomat

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Bill Taylor — the diplomat who testified in the impeachment inquiry into U.S. President Donald Trump on Tuesday — is a "patriot" and "straight shooter," says a former U.S. ambassador to Ukraine.

Taylor, the acting U.S. ambassador to Ukraine, said in a lengthy opening statement that Trump demanded the U.S. withhold "everything" Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky wanted — including vital military aid to counter Russia — unless he publicly vowed to investigate the Democrats.

Taylor said Trump wanted the investigation to look at the 2016 U.S. election and a company linked to the family of Trump's potential 2020 Democratic rival, Joe Biden.

The 15-page statement has been released to the public.

After the testimony, White House Press Secretary Stephanie Grisham issued a statement calling the impeachment process "a co-ordinated smear campaign from far-left lawmakers and radical unelected bureaucrats waging war on the constitution."

But John Herbst, a former U.S. ambassador to Ukraine, says Taylor is "as radical as oatmeal."  Here is part of his conversation with As It Happens host Carol Off. 

Democrats are saying they believe that Ambassador Bill Taylor's testimony is really the strongest plank they have in their investigation. What do you make of what Bill Taylor had to say?

I think it is a very impressive, precise and even devastating document, which presents a whole series of conversations pointing it in a fairly clear direction.

And that direction being?

That the president was orchestrating a policy where he was withholding agreement to a meeting and withholding military assistance in order to persuade the president of Ukraine to conduct an investigation into the hacking of a Democratic server, an investigation into [Ukrainian gas company] Burisma and [former] vice-president Biden.

And the hacking of the Democratic server is a conspiracy theory that I understand has been largely debunked.

I don't believe that the basis for that request is sound.

What we heard from Ambassador Taylor in his remarks, we only have those opening remarks, [is] that it's not just that the president of Ukraine was being asked or instructed to conduct these investigations in order to get the money they needed for security, but that they would have to make a very public statement about that — that the president would have publicly declare that he was doing these investigations. What's the significance of that, do you think?

As Ambassador Taylor wrote, we've had a clear policy on Ukraine, of support for it as it fights Kremlin aggression and support for it as it reforms.

And this new line that President Trump was pushing for a few months directly worked against that policy, and it was not to the American national interest. So it's correct to criticize that policy and criticize it strongly.

Although it's worth noting that, of course, Trump had reversed himself even before the statement by Speaker [Nancy] Pelosi on holding hearings relating to impeachment.

According to Ambassador Taylor ... there was a regular information channel, there was a regular way of doing things, and there was this irregular channel that he discovered once he was in the office in Ukraine. Can you describe your understanding of how this irregular information channel was being conducted?

I think that there is a fair amount of evidence for what happened — and that is the effort seem to be quarterbacked by [former New York City] mayor [Rudy] Giuliani, [the president's personal lawyer].

And, you know, he had sought meetings with Zelensky in the springtime, which didn't quite pan out. But then when the president had his conversation with Zelensky in July, it became very clear to the Ukrainian side that, in some form, they needed to deal with Giuliani.

What Mr. Giuliani was selling was not our stated policy and it was not a policy that served American interests.

And that's not a good thing, to put it mildly.

Ambassador Taylor's testimony was compelling. He's a straight shooter. He saw all these things. And again, they pointed in a direction, and that direction's a rather ugly one.

As a diplomat and someone who has been part of ... U.S. foreign policy and information channels, what do you think it was like for Ambassador Taylor to discover this irregular channel that was being conducted by mostly Mr. Giuliani?

Taylor is a real pro, and I think he understood even before he went to Ukraine, and even before he was considering going to Ukraine, that there was something strange going on with Giuliani. 

But then he saw it up close ... and he realized that what he was seeing was not a good thing and that it needed to be stopped.

He raised serious questions about it. And I think that was probably one of the reasons why President Trump reversed himself.

And you think he had that influence?

One of the reasons. I think the other reasons were the announcement in early September, without reference to impeachment per se, by the Democrats who control the House that they were going to conduct investigations into Ukraine policy.

And then finally, my understanding is that Republicans, especially senators, were privately telling the president to release the aid.

Those three factors explain why President Trump reversed himself.

In this opening statement by Ambassador Taylor ... it's almost emotional when he describes his love of his country and how important he could see this money, this nearly $400 million dollars in aid that was going to ... assist Ukraine in resisting the Russians in their efforts to redraw the border. And he went to the front. He went there and looked at it and saw, and he makes this declaration. He believes that more Ukrainians are going to die. People will die, if they don't get this money. That was a passionate part of this, wasn't it?

I think it was a brilliant statement. He laid out the great American interests in the policies that have I described to you in helping Ukraine fight Kremlin aggression, the consequences if American support is seen to be shaken, and he described the process as this ugly policy was being pursued.

So it was a tour de force, and shows what a quality diplomat Bill Taylor is and what American interests are in this important country.

The statement from the White House press secretary was that is a "co-ordinated smear campaign from far-left lawmakers and radical unelected bureaucrats waging war on the constitution." Does that describe in any way Ambassador Taylor?

Bill Taylor is as radical as oatmeal. 

He's a forthright American diplomat who served presidents, Republican and Democrat, who has a strong interest in America having the right role in this world, a patriot. 

That statement's just silly. 

Written by Sheena Goodyear. Interview produced by Katie Geleff. Q&A has been edited for length and clarity.