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The AIH Transcript for February 26, 2020

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

CO: Words and weapons. Quebec's Premier says rail blockades in Kahnawake may be armed with AK47s. We talk to the secretary of the Mohawk Nation there, who calls that accusation inflammatory and irresponsible.

CH: Justice delayed. 65 years after Emmett Till's murder, the United States Congress has passed a bill named for the 14-year-old. Its sponsor tells us why it took nearly 200 attempts to make lynching a federal crime.

CO: Euro-tripped. Northern Italy is now the centre of a new coronavirus outbreak. And investigators are putting local hospitals under the microscope. Our guest tells us how she's coping with her city in lockdown.

CH: Into dust. Mazzy Star's dreamy psychedelic pop sounded timeless and created fans for life. And now those fans are mourning one of the key figures behind their sound: David Roback.

CO: A major figure. The inventor of the Lego mini-figure, left a huge impact on generations of children and on his colleagues. We talked to a long-time collaborator who tells us a brainstorming session with Jens Nygaard Knudsen was more like a brain hurricane.

CH: And blasts are the past. A Halifax City Councillor tells us why he wants his city to explore the possibility of so-called "silent fireworks." And why his proposal has ignited quite the controversy. As It Happens. The Wednesday Edition. Radio wonders why those fireworks aficionados have such a short fuse.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Blockades: Kahnawake

Blockades: Kahnawake

Guest: Kenneth Deer

CH: François Legault says he is worried that police officers could face assault rifles if they're asked to clear the rail blockade in Kahnawake. This afternoon, the Quebec Premier told reporters that he has evidence of AK47s in the community. But that claim got a swift rebuke from the Kahnawake Peacekeepers. Here's the Mohawk Police Force's Public Affairs Officer, Kyle Zachary.

SOUNDCLIP

KYLE ZACHARY: That kind of comment is very irresponsible. It's unprofessional. We're trying to have this situation come to an end peacefully. And that kind of statement is counter to that. Nobody here in Kahnawake wants another 1990, and nobody outside of Kahnawake wants another 1990. And we're keeping that in mind. But to say these kind of things is irresponsible, it's dangerous. And it's only going to exacerbate the situation. There are firearms on the territory, but there's no more than what are in Châteauguay or in Montreal.

CH: 1990 was, of course, the year of the Oka Crisis. Kenneth Deer is the Secretary of the Kahnawake Branch Haudensaunee Six Nations Confederacy. We reached him in Kahnawake.

CO: Mr. Deer, Quebec's Premier Legault says that you've got AK47 assault rifles in Kahnawake. Is he right?

KENNETH DEER: Well, I can't say we have some assault rifles -- yes or no -- but I can tell you that the people who are effected by the injunction are not armed. These are just regular citizens of the Mohawk Nation who are out there blocking a railway in support of the chiefs and the Wet'suwet'en. And they are not armed. And it's irrelevant whether we have BB guns or shotguns or anything else in the community -- they are not at the barricades.

CO: You're saying that at the barricades, at the places where the blockades are on the rails, they are not armed?

KD: They are not armed at all. At all. At all. It is totally totally false to try to imply that the protesters are armed. It is absolutely irresponsible. And it's a threat by Mr. Legault that the police may have to use heavy arms to come. That seems to be a justification for them to do something like that.

CO: Is there a scenario that if the SQ came in, armed and to dismantle those blockades, that reinforcements to those protesters who are armed might arrive?

KD: Oh I hope not. I don't think that'll happen. Our strategy is if the SQ wants to shoot unarmed protesters then the blood is on the hands of the SQ.

CO: But is it possible that armed enforcements could arrive...

KD: That is totally hypothetical. And right now, that is not the intention of the protesters at all. I think this whole discussion is inflammatory. Asking that question is inflaming the situation. There is no need to discuss armed protesters because there are not any. And Legault or anybody else trying to suggest that there will be armed is, I think, irresponsible. The media has to also take some responsibility in making sure that there's a peaceful resolution in here, and not to raise the issue of arms on either side.

CO: How can there be peaceful resolution? How do you see that happening?

KD: I think the peaceful resolution is the government settles with the Chiefs in B.C.. And if the Chiefs in B.C. say that we're satisfied then the blockade will come down. That's the solution. And we've got to focus on the Wet'suwet'en people in British Columbia. That's the focus.

CO: When you say -- and in your press release says the same thing -- that we call upon Indigenous allies to support the Wet'suwet'en struggle, and that your focus is on the struggle of the Wet'suwet'en people. But we do know from all various parts of the Wet'suwet'en -- the sub-chiefs of the Wet'suwet'en -- that they're not on the same page with the hereditary chiefs. There is a divided community, isn't there?

KD: There are differences of opinions over there. But you know, a sub-chief is not the same as the chief. The assistant captain of a hockey team is not the captain. It's the same thing. The sub-chief is supposed to be reporting to the chiefs and carry out the responsibilities that the Chiefs is taking because it is the chief that represents the people. The sub-chiefs are there to assist the chiefs. It's not the other way -- the tail doesn't wag the dog.

CO: Some of them like Rita George, who's a matriarch in Wet'suwet'en and a sub-chief, she said that none of the matriarchs were contacted. Gary Naziel, a sub-chief, said -- this is a quote -- "These five so-called hereditary chiefs do not speak for the Wet'suwet'en. They are not following or abiding by our traditional laws. They are changing them to benefit themselves." And he says, there's a growing movement of sub-chiefs considering taking action against the five men. At any level, are you concerned you might be interfering in the business of another nation?

KD: We would be interfering if we ignored the chiefs. You know, we also would be interfering in that way. It's an internal matter that they have to deal with themselves. And we met with the chiefs. They gave us an explanation of how the system works and the positions that they hold. And we take those chiefs at their word because they are chiefs. And as long as they are chiefs, we will respect and honour those positions.

CO: But if it is an internal matter, why are you part of it? Why are you involved in the business of another First Nation?

KD: We're not involved in the internal matters of another Nation. We are not telling them what to do. We're not telling them how to deal with their politics. Those politics are internal to them, to their people. And it's unfortunate that the divisions have to spill out into the public. Those kind of things should be settled internally with our own people. And by taking it outside, they are trying to ask people to take sides. These sub-chiefs, the sub chiefs or matriarch, they're taking those internal matters outside and asking people to take sides. And that makes things more difficult for everybody.

CO: It does. And it also means that there are people who are coming forward -- more and more of them from Wet'suwet'en who say they support the pipeline. And even if they don't support the pipeline, they don't think that this has been particularly helpful what's going on. So what do you say to them?

KD: I'm saying that they have to settle those divisions internally. Just like if we had an internal division here, it's up to us to settle those things internally. And that's what they should be doing over there.

CO: But if you say that the resolution of what's going on right now across the country means that there has to be a settlement with those hereditary chiefs of the Wet'suwet'en -- but as you point out, there are these internal conflicts. Doesn't it make it extremely difficult to resolve this in a way that could allow you to stand down?

KD: Well, maybe. I don't know. But I can't speak for all of the people out there. Those are issues that they have to settle themselves. It's just like if we had to deal with Prime Minister Trudeau -- the oppositions are saying that Trudeau does not speak for Canada -- well, it's up to Canadians to figure that out. It's not for us to say, well we don't recognize you or we don't think that you're the real prime minister, you know? It is not for us to get involved in Canada politics.

CO: Mr. Deer I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

KD: You're very welcome.

CH: Kenneth Deer is the Secretary of the Kahnawake Branch Haudensaunee Six Nations Confederacy. We reached him in Kahnawake.

[Music]

Coronavirus: Italy

Guest: Chiara Ziboni

CH: It is the off-season for tourism in Italy right now. But that doesn't account for the silence in the streets of some cities today. Authorities in Italy are taking new measures to contain the coronavirus outbreak, with 322 cases confirmed there as of yesterday. They've locked down cities and towns, restricted movement to and from affected areas, and canceled major public events. Which has turned some of the country's busiest communities and urban centres into ghost towns. Chiara Ziboni lives in Milan, but she's now left her home in the city to wait out the panic. We reached her in Monza, a small town outside of Milan.

CO: Chiara, why did you decide to get out of Milan?

CHIARA ZIBONI: Well, actually, the city was empty so it was not the same city I was used to. So I preferred to go back to my parents’ house (which is) 20 kilometres away from Milan. In this way, I would have some contacts with someone that was not infected, I hope at least. And I know better how to behave without having restaurants or bars open because that was the main thing that affected me when I realised that everything was closing down and that no one was taking the public transports. And it's very difficult to move around Milan without a car if you cannot take the bus or the metro.

CO: Wow. Anyone who's been to Milan would find this rather [chuckles] an extraordinary description. What was it like when you left the city?

CZ: Well I moved here, let's say, Saturday -- in the morning. And there were people that were starting to arrange, let's say, and realize what to do. Some shops, the ones that had many tourists or many many people, they decided to close or to be open for less hours. For example, I went to the nail polisher to have my nails done, and they were talking about what to do in the afternoon. So the hysteria began on Sunday because there was a regional act saying that the public exercises needed to close.

CO: And that happened on Sunday, that they began to close all public services.

CZ: Yeah. So on Saturday it was mainly an individual decision. Then from Sunday, the regional part started so they decided that pubs or churches, where there was the possibility to have crowds, they needed to be closed.

CO: And I understand fashion shows or any kind of assembly of people, all shut down.

CZ: Yeah. Behind closed doors. So we had some soccer matches behind closed doors (and also) some fashion shows. Yeah.

CO: When you go shopping, did you get a chance to see what some have reported that the grocery stores are...there's not much to eat there? People are lining up. They're only letting a few people in at a time. Did you see that?

CZ: Yes, on Sunday. So I went to the grocery store. It was full of people, actually. I stayed in line for 30 minutes. But the shelves were empty. So the food that does not expire soon, for example pasta or tuna cans or water, they were empty. So I was not lucky enough to pick up everything. I had to choose what was left. But now everything is getting a bit better. So I think it was three days, from Sunday to Tuesday, it was very intense in terms of the panic and in terms of not knowing what to do.

CO: And what's it like in Monza? You've gone there to be with your family so you can at least be with some other humans. What's the atmosphere in that town?

CZ: Oh it's similar here. It's more quiet also in the normal life, the regular daily life. So I think the difference is seen more in Milan because it's a very active and dynamic city. In Monza, I see people with masks. I see that some libraries or the grocery stores are still empty, the one that I went to on Sunday. So I try to avoid very crowded places like -- [Thinking] I don't know. The name where you have many stores.

CO: The malls. Shopping malls.

CZ: Yeah. Yeah.

CO: We know that China is able to exercise a lot of control over its people. And they shut down entire cities, people are not allowed out, they'll be arrested if they break any of the rules. Do you think it's possible in Italy or in a city like Milan to have the kind of control over people's movements that China seems to have over its people?

CZ: No. Impossible. I think that the first days already showed that it is a different country. So in three days, people were still going out. So here, now, it is more the fear of getting sick than the power of the authority telling us what to do. Of course, pubs and bars are closed because they were forced to be closed. But they are asking, for example, on social media to people to still come because then economically they would be blocked. They will be injured by this. But people are not going out just because of individual fear. And what the media is telling on TV shows or newspapers, it's not the type of control that China can do, for sure.

CO: Chiara stay healthy. [Both chuckle] And I hope you get out soon, you get back to Milan and enjoy your life. But thank you for speaking with us.

CZ: Thank you. Thank you very much.

CO: Take care. Bye bye.

CZ: Bye.

CH: Chiara Ziboni lives in Milan, but today we reached her in Monza -- a small town nearby.

[Music]

Halifax quiet fireworks

Guest: David Hendsee

CH: If you make fireworks that don't boom, your business may be about to. Because you have an opportunity in Halifax where for a lot of very valid reasons, people have been complaining the fireworks are too noisy. So the city could be turning to so-called "silent" or "quiet" fireworks -- which apparently do exist. David Hendsbee is one of the city councillors who has been getting those complaints. This week, he brought forward a motion that passed the Halifax Regional Council. So now, staff will produce a report looking at what it would take to switch to some quieter fireworks. We reached Councillor Hendsbee in Halifax.

CO: Councillor Hendsbee, how quiet are "quiet fireworks?"

DAVID HENDSEE: Well, what I've heard they are probably about half the decibel sound of regular traditional fireworks. So hopefully we can have a quieter, gentler, exhibit of sound and colour.

CO: But we had fireworks around for a very long time. Why has this become an issue now?

DH: I believe that with more people being diagnosed with post-traumatic stress syndrome, and also some children with the autism spectrum disorder that has become more prevalent. These issues have become a more troublesome to deal with. And especially when fireworks are going off, people run for shelter and trying to hide, and try and coping with some of the bad memories or experiences these loud noises can trigger for them. As well as with pet owners and the wildlife, they too have to cope and adjust. You know, I've heard some owners tell me that their dogs are so scared and terrified they run around the house and urinate and defecate all over the place. And some go cowering in dark corners just to get away. So it's just that perhaps the municipality could do some investigations. I have heard about silent fireworks. And I did some looking up on the matter. Apparently they are available. And I just want to see what kind of cost differential there may be. Can we have maybe less bang for the same buck or see how much it is going to cost or not?

CO: Just to add to your list, I've heard many times from refugees who have come from war zones, especially the children who are just terrified when the fireworks go off because it's reminders of what they have fled. So that is part of it too.

DH: Yes, I've heard that same thing too. And we have to be cognizant. We're trying to promote immigration and stuff to our country, and hopefully our new neighbours will become accepting to our communities. But we have to be cognizant of the environment they may have come from. And I believe that a quieter firework display can be just one measure.

CO: But isn't the whole point of fireworks -- I mean, weren't they done to sort of mimic the glory of war and celebration? That they should be loud and brightened and startle you. I mean, isn't the whole point of a fireworks show to be startling?

DH: That's true. But fireworks have also become more technically advanced. We now see fireworks that could be held in close corners -- or quarters, I should say. Or in confined areas. So I'm kind of thinking that if our staff could find out if there are a softer, gentler, quieter fireworks perhaps we should use those in those low lying confined areas. But on the bigger days such as Canada Day where they are shooting them off over the harbour, perhaps the bigger the venue, the bigger the fireworks. But maybe we should see if we can scale it to the venue.

CO: Now you're talking about public displays of fireworks. What happens to people who just want to set off some firecrackers in their own neighbourhood?

DH: I don't want to get into banning the sale of fireworks as it has become more prevalent, more available anywhere. You can go now to the corner stores and buy them. But I thought if we take the lead municipally and show some leadership on the matter, perhaps the industry may follow and make fireworks to be less explosive or less intrusive in regards to noise and decibels sounds.

CO: Do you know of any other municipality, any other jurisdiction that has got into quiet fireworks?

DH: I've been looking on the internet, just Google up "silent fireworks" -- and there's quite a few municipalities investigating it across North America, especially Europe (where) it is becoming more invoked. So I haven't really gone to see and experience one myself, but I'll be curious to experience one.

CO: Do you think, though, you might get some pushback from this for people who like things to be traditional?

DH: Well there are some people that made some comments specially on social media about this kind of stuff -- (for example) don't we have better things to deal than this stuff. But this issue was brought up by the concerns of some residents. And, you know, here I am trying to listen to the concerns of my citizens. And this is one of those topics that keeps coming up over the last number of years. And so I thought, well there is an alternative out there, apparently. And why can't we investigate and look at it? You know, we see the movement of banning of single-use plastic bags. Took some leadership in different places. We know that's now becoming more invoked. But perhaps quieter, more gentler, fireworks maybe something else down the road.

CO: Now having been in Halifax many times, I do know that every day at noon on Citadel Hill, there is a cannon shot off. So any talk about that?

DH: Well, we're going to probably look into that. One of our councillors had mentioned about the sound of that shot which is shot at noon. Perhaps we could pop with a little less wadding, a little less gunpowder. But it also depends on what type of temperature and atmospheric conditions because sometimes the sound can carry quite a long way. But on a foggy day, it gets deafened in anyway regards to being muffled.

CO: How do you think people are going to feel about that, if you start to mess with it the canon on Citadel Hill? [Both chuckle]

DH: I'll leave that to Citadel Hill -- historic property, historic parks and stuff to deal with -- Parks Canada to deal with that matter.

CO: I think that's wise for you to leave that up to them [Laughs]. Councillor Hendsbee thank you.

DH: Thank you. And have yourself a pleasant evening.

CO: You too. Bye bye.

CH: David Hendsnee is a councillor on the Halifax Regional Council. He put forward a motion asking city staff to consider the use of quiet or at least quieter fireworks.

[Music]

David Roback

CH: Mazzy Star is not on anyone's work-out playlist. If you listen to them in the afternoon, it immediately becomes the middle of the night. And even though you're awake, it's like you're dreaming. From the first note of any Mazzy Star album to the last, you are in their world -- a world where you don't know what year it is, but it's always 3 a.m. The two people at the centre that band: singer Hope Sandoval, and multi-instrumentalist David Roback, didn't care if their music was fashionable. They didn't care about being cool. And they didn't much care for promoting themselves. One music journalist once described interviewing them as like "drinking sand." But that's why Mazzy Starr worked, because as Mr. Roback once said, probably reluctantly, "The outside world is really not on our minds, in so far as the music is concerned. We're really doing it in our own world for ourselves." Yesterday, a representative for the band announced that David Roback had died. He was 61. No cause of death was given. Mr. Roback was not what you'd call "chameleonic." He had a sound. You can hear in his early work with 80s neo-psychedelic bands Rain Parade and Opal. But with Ms. Sandoval, he refined and deepened that sound in the 90s and beyond.

[Music]

Part 2: Lego minifigures designer remembered as a 'grown-up playmate' by friend

Anti-lynching act

Guest: Bobby Rush

CH: It seems unthinkable. But technically, lynching is not listed as a federal crime in the United States. That's despite the fact that more than 4,700 people, mostly African-Americans, died at the hands of lynch mobs between 1881 and 1968. And despite attempts in Congress, nearly 200 attempts, to make it a federal crime. So today was long-awaited and long overdue. The Emmett Till Anti-Lynching Act overwhelmingly passed in the House of Representatives. That's a far cry from 120 years ago, when the only black congressman at the time, George Henry White, made an impassioned plea to his colleagues. A plea that fell on deaf ears. Chicago Congressman Bobby Rush is finishing what George Henry White started. He introduced the anti-lynching act. We reached him in Washington, D.C..

CO: Congressman Rush, what do you think this bill means to the families of all those thousands of lynching victims in the United States over the years?

BOBBY RUSH: Well, I think this is a clear signal to those families that we are grieving with them, that we accept the responsibility for creating a federal law that prohibits lynching, and that we will have sufficient punishment and remedies that the U.S. government would undertake in the event that anyone in the future is lynched. We want to honour those who have been lynched. Those who are known and unknown. They are not forgotten.

CO: I just want to ask you a bit about the history, 1900 was the first time that Congress heard some attempt to pass this law. And so many times, 200 times since then. And it's been turned down citing that it would trample on the rights, the legal rights, of states. Was that really the reason? Why has the United States resisted?

BR: In the U.S., segregationist -- those who feed on racial animosity, those who are hell bent on keeping non-whites down, and keep whites in a superior position, and they use you state's rights as a convenient tool and vehicle to suppress human rights, to suppress others rights -- particularly African-Americans. They have used state's right in order to keep African-Americans as an oppressed and subjugated people. Each time in Congress, this act -- only one time in 1902 did an anti-lynching bill in Congress -- didn't pass the House and failed in the Senate.

CO: I want to ask you about a black congressman who was in Congress at the time, George Henry White -- who was the one at 1900 who tried to pass this. It was right just after the Wilmington, North Carolina massacre in which we saw a massive lynching of black people. Even after that, why was it so impossible for Congress to see the necessity of this law?

BR: Well because Congress at that time was dominated by white men and by whites. Even though Congressman White was a black man from North Carolina -- when he introduced that bill in 1900, it still failed. I think he was one of the last black members in Congress. All right. Today, we have 55 members of the Congressional Black Caucus. We have Latinos. We have more women. You know, the Congress is much different today than it was back then. The Senate is somewhat different. Although the Senate is still an obstacle that we haven't overcome. But on this bill, I've been assured that Senate will pass this bill -- maybe as early as tomorrow morning and get it to the president's desk.

CO: I will ask you one final questions, I understand you're dedicating this bill to Emmett Till whose family you were just meeting with a moment ago. And remind people, Emmett Till -- a 14-year-old boy who was lynched in Mississippi because he was accused of having offended a white woman. Why was it significant for you to bring the story of Emmett Till into this bill?

BR: Well, the story of Emmett Till catalogues the kind of changes that America has seen in terms of its racial relations. Emmett Till's murder -- his deformed face in the casket has completely changed America. All right. So Emmett Till is the one whose tragic death completely revolutionized, completely change the minds of Americans and change the American way of life, American law -- and racial animosity and racial injustice. But it is something pinpointed into the bright lights of history.

CO: I know that this is personal for you because your mother showed you the photo of Emmett Till's mutilated body at the time. That stayed with you for all those years.

BR: Yes, absolutely. And the mutilated body of Emmett Till mobilized an entire generation. All right. And then the Civil Rights generation was catalyzed based on that photograph. And the courage, the harrowing decision that Emmett's mother made at a very critical time when she had to decide whether or not he was going to have a closed-casket funeral or an open-casket funeral. She said -- and I knew his mother very well, she often repeated this story -- she said, "I want an open casket because I want the world to see what they did to my baby."

CO: Congressman Rush, I really appreciate speaking with you. And congratulations on finally getting this bill passed after all these years. Thank you.

BR: Thank you so much. All right, bye bye.

CH: Congressman Bobby Rush introduced the Emmett Till Anti-Lynching Act -- making lynching a federal crime. After it passed today in the U.S. House of Representatives, it now heads to the Senate where it's expected to pass too.

[Music]

Karma

CH: It was a perfectly executed crime. And Celeste Sweeney would have gotten away with it too -- if it weren't for her meddling conscience. In fact, she did get away with it for 55 years. But the large stoneware stein she filched from a famous Munich beer hall all those years ago was not large enough to contain her guilt -- which grew in volume with each passing year until it bubbled over and spilled into action. And at the age of 73, Celeste Sweeney turned herself in, sort of. She really just wanted to turn in the stein, but to send it by mail from Maryland, she had to provide her name and address. She even paid $100 to insure it. Ms. Sweeney also sent along a note to the Hofbrauhaus. It read, "I took this beer stein from your establishment the summer of 1965, when I was young, reckless, and inconsiderate. I am sorry." Now, she probably didn't expect to be punished. But she also didn't expect to be praised. "We are really thrilled about it," the beer hall declared on Facebook. And it promised to send Ms. Sweeney a new stein, along with three beer tokens for her next visit. While warning other patrons: "Don't get any ideas -- you won't get a similar parcel in the post." Well, this entire saga brought to mind a story from last summer when someone left a bag outside a Perkins restaurant in Lacey, New Jersey. It contained bottles of ketchup pilfered from the diner. And a note, which owner Maria DiLeo read to As It Happens guest-host Rosemary Barton.

SOUNDCLIP

MD: "Dear Lacey Perkins. A few weeks ago, I had taken one of your bottles of ketchup off the table because for some odd reason I thought it would be "risky." I am as square as they come and this is the worst thing I've done. Well a few hours later I did it, someone crashed into my car. And since then my karma, luck, and in life has been [censor bleep]. I hope returning the two new bottles will restore some for me and I can stop carrying around all this guilt. Again I am sorry for anything I inconvenienced you for. From an awful person."

RB: So...let me back up. So they took a bottle of ketchup from your restaurant...

MD: They took a bottle of ketchup like a couple of weeks ago.

RB: Did you notice that it was missing?

MD: Absolutely not. I have 60 tables in here and maybe the girl might have just thought it was empty and they might have thought they throw it out during a shift.

RB: And did it because someone had crashed into their car?

MD: Yes -- she just had said ever since she took that that she's had bad luck and bad karma.

RB: Okay. And then you decided to post it to Facebook.

MD: I posted it on Facebook in my local Lacey Township Chatter (group) because I think she has to be from Lacey -- my restaurant is in Lacey.

RB: What makes you think it's a she?

MD: The way the handwriting is on the note...it's definitely a girl. A boy doesn't write this nice.

RB: [Laughs] You're like a detective. What have you been able to find out about her?

MD: Absolutely nothing. I don't even know who she is.

RB: And when she signed off -- we're assuming it's a girl given your handwriting analysis -- when she signs off "an awful person" did you think to yourself, "Yes you are." What did you think?

MD: No I didn't think that at all. I'm thinking this is definitely a kid who definitely -- I mean let's be for real, if this is the worst thing you did -- and you're already driving a car -- is stealing a ketchup bottle, you're in good shape. [Laughter] My own mother goes in and takes the Splenda...Come on Mom, really? [Laughter]

RB: My dad does that too. [Laughter] What are you going to do with the letter?

MD: The letter is framed, and the two ketchup bottles...it's sitting on my table here in Perkins. I would keep it as all goes together as a piece of.

RB: [Laughter] A tribute if you will.

MD: It's like a tribute.

RB: It's a crazy little tale but man you're a good sport.

MD: No problem.

RB: I promise I will never steal Splenda at your restaurant if I come.

MD: Oh I'm going to be looking and I'm going to hold you too because I am going to put in cameras now. [Laughter]

CH: From our archives, that was Maria DiLeo speaking with As It Happens guest-host Rosemary Barton last August.

[Music]

Jens Nygaard Knudsen obit

Guest: Niels Milan Pedersen

CH: They're small, they multiply, and they're painful to step on. But when you look down and see their little faces, you forgive them. Mostly. They're tiny astronauts, police officers, and doctors, athletes, monsters, and mythical creatures: Lego mini-figures -- created by a man named Jens Nygaard Knudsen. Mr. Knudsen died earlier this month from complications related to Lou Gehrig's disease. He was 78 years-old. He came up with a number of hugely popular Lego sets. But his most important contribution came in 1978 when his perfect little figure started populating those sets. Niels Milan Pedersen was a long-time friend and colleague of Mr. Knudsen. We reached Mr. Pedersen in Billund, Denmark.

CO: Niels, first of all, I'm sorry for the loss of your friend.

NIELS MILAN PEDERSEN: Yeah, thank you. It was a great loss for all of us. Yeah.

CO: Can you tell us a bit about Jens Nygaard Knudsen -- and being at Lego with him? How did you first come to meet him?

NIELS MILAN PEDERSEN: Well, it was actually the very first day when I had an interview at Lego, when I was trying to get the job here. He was one of the -- I think there was three guys around the table when I came to Lego. And I hadn't talked to him for more than a few minutes before. I actually felt really really relaxed because I was actually quite nervous at that point and thought that I was doing a very bad job in presenting myself. But he could talk with everybody and he was so friendly and a nice guy, you would immediately feel that he was a really wonderful person.

CO: And you got to work with him at Lego as a young designer. And I'm actually speaking with someone who was part of the creation of Classic Space and the Gray Castle sets theme. So that must have been a lot of fun to work with him on those.

NIELS MILAN PEDERSEN: Oh yeah, it was. Yeah, it was so fun. And we were only three guys. There was Jens, and then there was Daniel Krentz -- the guy who's known for the Yellow Castle. And we really fit so well together. Actually, we were just three grown up kids. We didn't feel as designers or (anything) like that. We sort of played when we made things at that time. [Laughter] It was really fun.

CO: But you'd have to get into the minds of children. [Laughs] I mean maybe you feel you were still like children. But the creation of Classic Space or the Gray Castle sets somehow the three of you got to know how children would play with these. How did you do that? How did those sessions go that allowed you to explore what children would like?

NIELS MILAN PEDERSEN: We would actually make what we would feel that we would have wanted to have when we were kids.

CO: You've described elsewhere -- you've said that you didn't call them "brainstorm sessions." You said it was like a "brain hurricane." Can you describe those meetings?

NIELS MILAN PEDERSEN: We would sit together and we would have an agenda. For example, we are going to make a Castle, what would be fun to have in the castle? How should it look? And things like that. And then you'd start throwing out ideas. And I would say, each time I might have three or four ideas. Then Jens would top that with 10 or 20 ideas [laughs] going quite far. He would imagine -- many years before we actually had the dragons, he would say there should be this cave in the castle with dragons, and the dragons should be able to fire something. He would go way further out than we could actually produce.

CO: And I suppose one of the most important ideas of Lego was not the building blocks, but actually those mini-figures -- the people. The children always call them "the people." And that was his idea to introduce the Lego mini-figure. How did that idea come about? Do you remember when that brain hurricane happened?

NIELS MILAN PEDERSEN: I wasn't around at that point. But I know from Jens' lovely wife, it was actually because he thought they were making those buildings and cars and things at that point -- but he felt that there is no life in that. There is nothing happening in the houses and around the houses. And we need to have people to make it alive. So they started with this figure, which couldn't use its arms and legs. It was quite static. And Jens really wasn't happy with that. He really thought that it should be able to move the legs and sit down and use the arms and grab things.

CO: And every kind of figure can come out of that. I mean, they are firemen, bus drivers, mums and dads. They're astronauts, they're kids. And it all came from that single idea. I can't imagine Lego without those figures now. I can't imagine a time before "the people."

NIELS MILAN PEDERSEN: Exactly. And they get more and more important. And it's also because he made it so universal. Because some of the first ideas they actually also had noses and ears. But he found out that if they have that, you have actually restricted the possibilities with the figure because with this plain basic figure you are able to put everything on it.

CO: Just going back to what you knew of Jens. Is there any particular memory you have about Jens -- working with him or just something that characterizes the kind of man that Jens Nygaard Knudsen was?

NIELS MILAN PEDERSEN: He would always be very friendly. And he also wanted to be sure that you were actually feeling well and that everything was right. And he was also the guy who would put a practical joke on you if he knew you well. He liked to have to have fun and make fun. And he was a sort of grown up playmate. [Laughs] Yeah. A guy you would have loved to play with when you were a kid. And well, now you sort of could do it when you were a grown up. Yeah. He would never think bad about things and people, actually.

CO: Niels I really appreciate you telling us about your friend. [Chuckles] And it sounds like you were just a couple of grown up kids together.

NIELS MILAN PEDERSEN: Yeah.

CO: It's really lovely to talk to you Niels. Thank you.

NIELS MILAN PEDERSEN: Well, thank you. And good night.

CH: Niels Milan Pedersen is a designer at Lego, and a long-time friend and colleague Jens Nygaard Knudsen. Mr. Knudsen, the creator of the Lego mini-figure, died on February 19th. He was 78. And you can see some of Mr. Knudsen's creations on our website: cbc.ca/aih. Over the years, Mr. Knudsen's work inspired millions, including Joel Cadieux. Last June, Carol spoke with Mr. Cadieux, who spent four years building 100 Lego dioramas depicting Harold Ballard, the controversial Toronto Maple Leafs owner. From our archives, here's part of that conversation.

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JC: I was inspired there's somebody else who has done it in the past, and has told stories that way through you know they've done the French Revolution, the American Revolution, they've done the Bible, and they've always told them through using Lego bricks to create, like you said, an almost cartoonish reality of the stories. And yeah, I just fascinated me. I love building Lego, and I just think it's a great way to tell the story, and I guess the Canadian part of me that loves hockey wanted to tell a story of the owner that did almost unbelievable things. And I think when you play them out with Lego men, it just gives it a humorous twist on what was just a crazy story.

CO: So what are some of your favourite ones?

JC: Definitely one of the ones that just happened a few days ago was the Lanny McDonald. It really resonated with lot of people. It was one of the most popular ones where Punch Imlach came in and told him that he was traded because they couldn't trade Hitler. So out of spite, they traded his best friend, Lanny. And also, the Beatles one was a lot of fun. When the Beatles came to Maple Leaf Gardens and played a show that ended up turning into two shows because Harold went and sold two shows and failed to tell the Beatles that he had sold two shows.

CO: Now, you said elsewhere that you were inspired to look at Harold Ballard because your mom blamed him for the Leafs doing so badly because she always told you that when you were a kid. What did your mom think when she saw them?

JC: It was just last week where I showed her the finished product. She hadn't seen it yet. Yeah, she had a good laugh. But I think she was also some PTSD was coming back, and she was reminded of the horrible times that the Leafs had to go through growing up her whole life.

CH: That was Joel Cadieux speaking with Carol last June. He spent four years building 100 Lego dioramas of Maple Leafs owner Harold Ballard.

[Music]

Pink Shirt Day: Carson Crimeni

CH: Today is Pink Shirt Day, a day to talk with kids about the hurt bullying can cause. Seven months ago, Darrel Crimeni lost his 14-year-old grandson Carson to bullying. In August, Carson died from an overdose he suffered at a skate-park in Langley, British Columbia. His death made headlines after the public learned that the teenager's peers had captured video of his overdose and later posted the footage on social media. So far, police have laid no charges. Ever since, Darrel Crimeni has been raising awareness about bullying. He spoke with CBC British Columbia's "The Early Edition" today.

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DARREL CRIMENI: He was diagnosed with ADHD at a fairly young age -- I think Grade One. So he did have some troubles. He was bullied a bit in elementary school before even we moved to Langley. And I think children with somewhat special needs, they really feel they need to fit in probably more than others.

STEPHEN QUINN: You've probably seen this, but I want to read you an excerpt from a report in The Globe and Mail that was done by journalist Nancy Macdonald. And this is a quote from it. And she writes, "More than anything else in this world, Carson Crimeni wanted to make friends and fit in. He'd never been invited to a classmate's birthday party. He'd never been on a sleepover. Early in the past school year, a girl his age started a rumor that he had wet his pants in class and that spread like wildfire. And he was nicknamed 'Crackhead Carson' because he had trouble sitting still. And that's all anybody ever called him. And that's what students from Walnut Grove Secondary School said, where Carson had just finished Grade Eight." For you, what is it like to imagine Carson going through all of that?

DARREL CRIMENI: [Chokes up] It's very painful. I was unaware. Totally unaware. Our whole family was totally unaware. Like I said, if he went through it, he went through it on his own.

STEPHEN QUINN: What do you think he kept it all to himself?

DARREL CRIMENI: That's a very good question. I don't know. Maybe embarrassment. Maybe he didn't think it was bad as it was.

STEPHEN QUINN: Carson's peers posted videos the night that he died. And this is, of course, famously known now that Carson was on drugs. He was sweating. He was looking very unwell. You've seen those videos?

DARREL CRIMENI: Yes. I just watched them a few weeks ago for the first time actually.

STEPHEN QUINN: What did you see in there that was most shocking to you?

DARREL CRIMENI: Just the negligence of the boys around him. When they took him away in the ambulance, somebody posted a picture of the ambulance with the caption, "Carson almost died LOL." I mean the lack of caring was shocking. These were kids older. They were 17 to 20. Carson just turned 14 a couple of weeks earlier. So he was an easy target. And I think they took advantage of that.

STEPHEN QUINN: They essentially used him for entertainment.

DARREL CRIMENI: I think they killed him for entertainment.

CH: That was Darrel Crimeni, the grandfather of Carson Crimeni, speaking with The Early Edition's Stephen Quinn today. 14-year-old Carson died last August of an overdose at a skate-park.

[Music]

Part 3: Vatican set to open secret archives of controversial wartime Pope Pius XII

Iran plane petition

Guest: Armin Morattab

CH: The shooting down of Flight 752 has disappeared from the headlines. But Armin Morattab isn't going to let Iran's government forget. Mr. Morattab's twin brother Arvin, and his sister-in-law Aida, were on board when those two Iranian missiles struck. Now, Mr. Morttab is part of a group of bereaved family members that's calling for Canada and its allies to hold Iran accountable. They've launched a petition calling for Iran to be brought to the International Court of Justice. More than 80,000 people have signed that petition in a matter of days. We reached Armin Morattab in Montreal.

CO: Armin it is now over six weeks since you got that terrible news -- how are you managing?

ARMIN MORATTAB: Well, we were in a moment of shock, sorrow, sadness, rage, you know anger. All the emotions mixed. But with the support that we got from everybody, now we feel a little bit better. We could stand, we could just recover a little bit. But the pain is still there. It's only with the help of all the people, I think we got a little bit stronger to deal with all those emotions.

CO: Has the extended family in Iran, have they been able to grieve, given how many obstacles were in their way?

AM: So basically the funeral was in my hometown. So my parents just got a lot of people -- like the people of my hometown, a lot of people from other cities. There was also Aida's parents there. This has continued for the last 40 days because in our culture after like 40 days, there are ceremonies or grieving ceremonies I would say that have happened. After that, my parents came to Canada like two days ago. And now they are here with us.

CO: This petition you have started has nearly 80,000 signatures on it. What are you hoping to achieve?

AM: The main goal here is to seek justice for the Flight 752 victims. So we all know the story about how it happened, about the lies, about the responsible government who did this and their refusal to collaborate with the investigation. So this is the first action from the families of the victims, not only in Canada but also in Iran, Germany, Sweden and all those involved countries. This is an idea which was initiated by Dr. Hamed Esmaeilion who lost his wife and also his daughter in the tragedy. We all agreed that this is a good way to get enough support targeting the audience, which is basically the International Court of Justice, the world leaders. We believe that this has been a criminal act. This has been a killing of a lot of people. And this should be a closure, which for us, is only through the justice.

CO: You just said it's a crime. And many are saying that this was a criminal act what happened to that flight when it was brought down. Why not try to get it into the International Criminal Court? Given the gravity of the charges you're laying against the Iranian regime for this.

AM: The International Criminal Court -- basically Iran is not part of that. They haven't signed those commitments there. It could be an option if there is no veto -- because we expect that if we take it to that court, that China and Russia might veto the decision.

CO: Right. At the United Nations Security Council. You're seeking some recourse, some justice. But I wonder what support you're getting from the government of Canada. I mean, we interviewed the Foreign Affairs Minister, Mr. Champagne, right after this tragedy. He said that the Canadian government will not rest until it gets all the answers, until it gets transparency, accountability, and justice. And he promised that he would do this until he had all the questions answered. Has he fulfilled that commitment?

AM: Well, we totally understand and should appreciate the government of Canada and the Foreign Minister of Canada as well. Like special thanks to Prime Minister Justin Trudeau because without their help and without their support so far, that could have been closed by the government of Iran. But with all those words, with all those supports and seeking justice from the government that helped to accept their responsibility from the beginning -- like after three days of lying from the government of Iran, they accepted because of the pressure, international pressure.

CO: The Canadian government said weeks ago that it was way past the point when the black boxes should have been delivered. That's a cornerstone of any investigation and would be for the Criminal Court of Justice to have those black boxes. So in the absence of any cooperation in the investigation since the days after the shooting down of the plane, what can you possibly accomplish if Iran won't cooperate with any part of this investigation?

AM: We expect that this goes to full independent investigation. This is possible through the International Court of Justice. They can force like the governments -- the United Nations -- to be more collaborative. So there should be an ultimate force above the governments of Iran's will, which they can force them to give out the evidences. Do we know the government of Iran or IRGC -- they killed all those people? We would like to know if it has been intentional or non-intentional. Who is responsible for this? What has happened that night? Why they let the plane to take off at that night when it was a war situation? It is a criminal act. I guess it's clear enough to get to the point that this is not only a mistake from someone, this is a systems failure I would say.

CO: When you saw Mr. Trudeau, the Prime Minister, shaking hands with Iran's foreign minister recently, do you still have faith that Mr. Trudeau will follow through on his promises?

AM: This is like a diplomatic gesture. I mean, as Hamed said, my friends who just initiated the petition, as politics you can shake hands with devil, but you don't trust them. Right? So we expect from the government of Canada just to help us to seek justice and find who was responsible for this tragedy.

CO: Armin we're going to have to leave it there. But I'm terribly sorry about your brother and his wife. But thank you for speaking with us.

AM: Sure. Thank you so much.

CH: Armin Morattab lost his twin brother Arvin, and his sister-in-law Aida when Iran shot down Ukrainian International Airlines Flight 752. We reached Mr. Morattab in Montreal.

[Music]

William McGrattan

CH: Calgary Bishop William McGrattan has a request for the people of his church. He's asking them to write to their MPs and say they don't support proposed changes to Canada's medical assistance in dying law. There's a letter writing session at St. Mary's Cathedral tonight. The Bishop is speaking out about the bill that the federal government tabled this week. It would change the rules, removing the requirement that a person's natural death be reasonably foreseeable for them to be eligible. This afternoon, Bishop McGrattan spoke with The Homestretch on CBC. When he argued that medically assisted dying is being overused host Doug Dirks asked him for evidence to support that claim.

SOUNDCLIP

WILLIAM MCGRATTAN: As a matter of fact, we have many of our parishioners who volunteer in our hospitals and some in our long-term care facilities. And so they have encountered situations of individuals who they are attending to and caring for, and they find that they are being offered or considering medical assistance in dying, which somewhat disturbs them. And they also express the concern that we don't seem to be promoting palliative care.

DOUG DIRKS: Bishop McGrattan, people have been advocating for these changes because they're worried doctors will deny the procedure if or when they lose the mental capacity to consent to medically assisted dying. How do you respond to that?

WILLIAM MCGRATTAN: Well, that's another area that this legislation is considering expanding, is that advanced directives now can be signed by an individual. And we know that people sometimes make decisions and then circumstances change. They re-evaluate their situation. And we would be concerned that someone, you know, who has signed an advance directive isn't necessarily afforded the freedom and the ability to maybe reconsider and maybe make an alternative choice based on changed circumstances. So even using advanced directives when it's also recognized that people who may sign those as minors aren't necessarily capable of necessarily foreseeing the future. So again, this is particularly troublesome.

DOUG DIRKS: What would you say to someone who's listening, who perhaps has a loved one who is suffering and has consented to a medically assisted death and wants to have that option for either their loved one or for themselves at the end of their life so that they do not prolong their suffering?

WILLIAM MCGRATTAN: Well, this is where I would respond by saying that people, yes, they want to be able to express freely what they want. But at the same time, if society isn't providing alternatives to which they can assent to realize that their pain can be managed, that they can have the care and the support of people who find assisting those in their final stages to be a very very important moment and a time in which is what we would say as people of faith is graced.

CH: That was Bishop William McGrattan speaking with the CBC's Doug Dirks in Calgary today. According to the government, the current medical assistance in dying legislation requires that people must receive all information before they can give informed consent. That includes options to relieve suffering and includes palliative care.

[Music]

Foodora

CH: The Ontario Labour Relations Board has delivered some good news to Foodora couriers -- ruling they are "dependent contractors" of the food delivery company. That means they've earned the right to form a union which could set a historic precedent for workers in the gig-economy. It's the board's first decision of this kind, and followed a long effort by Foodora couriers to unionize. Last August, couriers in Toronto voted on union certification, but those results remain sealed and uncounted until the province's labour board could rule on whether they'd had the right to vote in the first place. And the results will remain unknown until voting eligibility issues are settled. After the votes were in last summer, As It Happens guest-host Nil Köksal spoke with courier Alex Kurth about the push to unionize. From our archives, here's part of our conversation from August 2019.

SOUNDCLIP

NK: Alex, Foodora is challenging the validity of what you're trying to do partly by claiming that not enough couriers signed pledge cards to trigger a vote in the first place. What's your response to that?

ALEX KURTH: Well I mean this is a very common dirty trick that we were expecting them to pull. It's pretty much every company will try to inflate their list of workers in order to try and frustrate our abilities to reach 40 percent of workers. But we're quite confident so that we'll be able to prove that a good portion of these names that they've submitted are not currently active workers for Foodora and that our 40 percent was reached.

NK: One of the other points Foodora is bringing up that it says look you're independent contractors so not eligible to unionize under Ontario's Labour Relations Act. Why do you believe you and the other couriers should be deemed dependent contractors?

AK: There's a quite clear definition under the Ontario Labour Relations Act of what an independent contractor is and is not. And we fail almost all of the points that are clearly specified in that law. We're entirely dependent on Foodora for our deliveries. We can't just show up at a restaurant and say "Hey, do you have any deliveries that I could do for you?" And Foodora really controls every aspect of our work. So there really is no independence there at all.

NK: But Foodora is also part of the gig-economy that we talk about so much. And other companies like Uber for example are saying there's a give and take here -- having the flexibility and the independence of being part of the gig economy is part of the deal.

AK: Certainly in some company's there is the ability to just sign on and sign off at any time that you want. That is not the case with Foodora. They create shifts ahead of time based upon what kind of staffing they think that they'll need. And you basically claim those shifts and commit to them. So other than being able to say yes or no to those shifts, the independence is really an illusion and it's just a way for the company to escape their responsibilities towards their workers.

NK: You're not just up against Foodora, you're really up against an employment landscape that has changed and changed fundamentally So how optimistic are you that you can really fight that shift?

AK: I feel like we're really starting something big here. The gig economy as a whole is a scam. It's founded upon misclassification of workers in an attempt to shirk basic legal responsibilities and basic workers’ rights. So this is really just the first battle in a much bigger war. But I really feel like we are setting precedent here just showing that this can be done, that these companies are not too big to be taken on.

CH: There was food delivery courier Alex Kurth speaking to guest-host Nil Köksal last August. Yesterday, the Ontario Labour Relations Board ruled that Foodora couriers are legally allowed to form a union.

[Music]

Pope Pius XII archives

Guest: David Kertzer

CH: To his detractors, Pope Pius the 12th was disturbingly silent during the Holocaust -- even when thousands of Jews were deported from Rome itself. But the wartime Pope's defenders say his silence allowed the church to do vital work, saving lives behind the scenes. Decades later, the jury is still out. But for the first time, new evidence is being introduced. On Monday, Vatican librarians are giving a select group of researchers from around the world access to the Pope's own archives. David Kertzer is among them. He's an anthropologist and historian at Brown University. And tomorrow, he's headed to Rome. Today, we reached him outside of Portland, Maine.

CO: Professor Kertzer, I know you've already done quite a deep dove on the history of Pius the 12th for the books you have written. So why are these archives so important to you?

DAVID KERTZER: Well, we've been waiting for 50 years for the opening of these archives. Ever since the early 60s, there's been quite a controversy over the charge that Pius the 12th was silent during the Holocaust. And the announcement last March by Pope Francis that finally those archives would be open has provoked a lot of excitement. There's, I think, a lot still to be learned about that dramatic period.

CO: And any particular part of the archives, any documents you feel that would shed light on the Pope's attitude toward the Holocaust and Jews during that period of time?

DK: Well, one example is on October 16th, 1943, that the German forces that were then occupying Rome, captured a thousand Jews. And then the thousand Jews were then held in a holding area right next to the Vatican. The Pope knew what was going on and obviously he was not happy. But he had to decide whether to take any dramatic action to try to prevent the Jews deportation to Auschwitz and their death. And he decided not, in fact, to intervene. We know that. What we don't know is what kind of discussions might have taken place behind-the-scenes that led the pope to make that decision.

CO: What are the theories so far away? At this point, what are the theories as to why he made that decision?

DK: Well, he did send his secretary of state, which is his number two, to call on the German ambassador to the Holy See. And the secretary of state on the Pope's behalf said how unhappy he was about this. And the German ambassador said to the secretary of state, well this order came from the very highest ranks of the government, meaning Hitler. Do you really want me to tell him that you protest? He won't be happy with this. And after some kind of fidgeting, the cardinal secretary of state said, well no, I'm not saying that you should necessarily do that. This is part of a larger issue of the decisions that the Pope made during the war.

CO: Right. And the arguments that have been given are that he was very concerned about the fate of Catholics and that he didn't know if he did stand up for the Jews, if he stood up to Hitler, what would happen to his flock. And that that was his preoccupation. Is there any truth to that?

DK: Yes, that's very true. In fact, the Germans, the Nazi government, was persecuting the Catholic Church in Germany. So the Pope saw his first responsibility as protecting the church. And he was worried that if he angered the Nazi regime, that they would take further measures against the Catholics, not only in Germany, but in the lands they were occupying, which had many Catholics, for example, Poland.

CO: And was there a suggesting that there was a streak of anti-Semitism or anti-Jewish sentiment in the church at that time and that Pope Pius the 12th would have been a product of that way of thinking, is that fair?

DK: Yes, I think so. In fact, my own view is that all the controversy and debate about the silence of the Pope during the Holocaust is somewhat misplaced. The larger issue about the responsibility of Christian churches has more to do with the decades leading up to the Holocaust of vilification of the Jews. Major Catholic publications in Italy, for example, were saying that the Jews shouldn't be given equal rights, that the Jews were a threat. Many of the same charges that the Nazis themselves would be making to justify their action against Jews.

CO: In the face of all of this, what's curious for many people is why the various figures in the Catholic Church have not just defended Pope Pius, but they've described him as someone who was trying to save the Jews. I mean, Pope Benedict said that Pius the 12th was, quote, "one of the great righteous who saved Jews more than anyone else." How do you square that?

DK: For conservatives in the church, he's a hero, partly because he was the last priest, Second Vatican Council Pope. And for some of the conservatives, Second Vatican Council is where the church went wrong. And so Pius the 12th is a hero from that perspective as well.

CO: Just to point out that Pope Francis has also said that he gets a bit of existential hive's in the face of any attacks on the Pius the 12th. He describes (him as) a great defender of the Jews. So certainly no conservative Pope Francis.

DK: Right. I mean, I think that's unfortunate myself, because I admire Pope Francis in many ways. It is true that many Jews hid out in church institutions, convents, for example, in Rome. But the Pope knew much about the Holocaust as it was happening, and he never once spoke out directly against it. And from my perspective, I could hardly see him as a great defender of the Jews. Most of Europe's Jews were murdered under his watch.

CO: And so beyond people like you who have knowledge of this or want to do the research, there are those very concerned about what the documents might show about Pius given that he is in the process of possibly becoming a saint. And so what might these archives do? The revelations in them for the case that Pope Pius the 12th should be made a saint?

DK: I'm not entirely sure the people who are most vociferous about making a saint of Pius the 12th -- I am somewhat doubtful that any evidence that is found in the Vatican archives will change their mind. They'll be able to point to the various kinds of assistance he provided to the needy, to P.O.W.s, to other victims of the war, and other good deeds that were done by the Vatican under his watch.

CO: Just finally on Monday, when this opens, will you be bee lining for anything in particular in the archives?

DK: Well, I'm in the midst of working on a follow up -- I did a book called "The Pope and Mussolini" just a few years ago, which was about the predecessor, Pope Pius the 11th and his relationship with Mussolini and the fascist regime in the 20s and 30s. That Pope's number two, Eugenio Pacelli, is the one who becomes Pope Pius the 12th. And there are -- one thing that people don't realize -- there are many archives on Pius the 12th and the war already available. And so what I'm looking for are really documents that will triangulate with the documents I have. So I think there's going to be a lot to look at. The rector of the largest papal archives said it will take tens of years for people to fully get through all this. But I do hope that within a couple of years, the first serious studies will begin to come out.

CO: Well, happy hunting Professor Kertzer.

DK: Well thank you.

CO: And thank you for speaking with us.

DK: My pleasure.

CH: David Kertzer is an anthropologist and historian at Brown University who's on his way to Rome to peruse the newly opened archives of Pope Pius the 12th. We reached him in Maine.

[Music]

Just Harry

CH: He flew commercial, carried his own bag, and wore jeans and a baseball cap. But I'm pretty sure his neighbour let him have the armrest. Still, Prince Harry did choose to make a commoner's return to British soil this week for his final round of royal engagements. It's his first time back in the U.K. since he and his wife, Meghan Markle, relocated to British Columbia last month, after announcing they were stepping away from their official duties. Earlier today, Prince Harry welcomed guests to a sustainable tourism conference in Edinburgh. But it wasn't so much his comments on stage that have garnered attention. But what was said before he walked up to the podium. Here's part of the introduction he was given by host Ayesha Hazarika.

SOUNDCLIP

AYESHA HAZARIKA: And of course, helping pull all of this together today is His Royal Highness, the Duke of Sussex, who wants to say a few words to kick start the day. He's made it clear that we are all just to call him "Harry." So, ladies and gentlemen, please give a big, warm Scottish welcome to Harry. [Crowd applauds]

CH: That is how Prince Harry...well Harry actually was introduced at a tourism conference in Edinburgh today. The Duke of Sussex sloughed off His Royal Highness title a little over a month before he's officially out as a working member of the Royal Family.

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February 26, 2020 Episode Transcript

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