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The AIH Transcript for March 31 2021

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello, I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

CO: Moving the needle. In the midst of the third wave, Canada announces plans to build a domestic vaccine facility and the minister of innovation tells us why we should get excited about a project that is six years away from completion.

CH: Reefer Gladness. New York legalises marijuana and wipes past pot possession convictions from criminal records, which one public defender says is a step in the right direction for racial equality.

CO: Sick and tired. So far, Brazilian president Jair Bolsonaro has stayed in power despite badly mishandling the pandemic. But now our guest says his days in office may be numbered.

CH: This one's on the house. Prince Edward Island expands a programme that slashes people's restaurant bills to get more bums in restaurant seats.

CO: Jokes wagan. A premature attempt at an April Fools prank intended to showcase electric vehicles' short circuits and sparks, an investigation of German automaker Volkswagen.

CH: And the Long and Winding Road. A film on the world's largest streaming service is helping breathe new life into the last remaining Blockbuster video. As It Happens, the Wednesday edition, radio that figures all the patrons needed was a rental reminder.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Canada will make vaccines at home if another pandemic hits: innovation minister

Champagne Vaccines

Guest: François-Philippe Champagne

CH: Plans for a new Made in Canada vaccine facility are about, quote, preventing the preventable. That's how the federal Minister for Innovation put it today as he announced that nearly one billion dollars in public private funding would go towards a domestic vaccine manufacturing facility in Toronto. French pharmaceutical giant Sanofi is pitching in the most cash, 455 million dollars, with the other half coming from Ottawa and the province of Ontario. The facility will manufacture influenza vaccines with the ability to pivot to coronavirus vaccines, but it won't be up and running until 2027. François-Philippe Champagne is the federal minister of Innovation and we reached him in Toronto.

CO: Mr. Champagne, as you can appreciate, it's hard to get excited about vaccine making that is six years away and doesn't pertain to our current crisis. So what's your pitch to Canadians?

FRANCOIS-PHILIPPE CHAMPAGNE: Well, I think there's a lot to be excited, to be honest, today. I think everyone wins. If you look at the workers, I mean, this is providing good jobs. I mean, we're talking about a billion dollar investment. A company was going to invest close to half a billion dollars in research and development over the next eight years. If there's one thing we learnt is that we don't want to face anything like we had when we started with covid. So just to be more resilient, I think is the smart thing to do.

CO: You say in your press releases, how you sell it in your press release, you say that it will give us the capacity to produce enough vaccine doses to support the entire Canadian population if there is a pandemic. But this is a partnership with a private company, a multinational corporation. What guarantee is it that this vaccine will actually be available to Canadians if there is a pandemic?

FRANCOIS-PHILIPPE CHAMPAGNE: One of the good thing is that Canada has a relatively small population in the G7 with 38 million people. So we made sure that first we can serve the domestic market. And they said the Connaught Laboratories in Toronto have been iconic in Canada when it comes to the life science sector, it's giving the Connaught laboratories a new life.

CO: But you mentioned Connaught Labs, which is an important little history lesson, isn't it? Because this was a Crown Corporation publicly owned for 70 years, an international gem full of medical breakthroughs and then privatised by Brian Mulroney government and sold to Sanofi. So if we want to reclaim this place that you say you want to, then why doesn't Canada again become that publicly owned capacity? Why are we partnering with a multinational corporation that has its own business plan, that it has its own marketing needs?

FRANCOIS-PHILIPPE CHAMPAGNE: Carol, if you look at the G7 countries, just look sort of our borders. Billions have been invested in trying to attract and expand domestic bio manufacturing capabilities. I think we need to do the same thing in Canada. Now we're going to have a flagship company with the possibility, obviously, to do the normal flu, seasonal vaccine, able to respond to a pandemic for me, you know, it's all the mark that we would want as a country like us, a G7 country.

CO: What we've seen over this pandemic is that it's no guarantee if a vaccine is being manufactured in your country or your region that you're going to get it. Isn't that what we're seeing in Europe, that they have had a very difficult rollout with their vaccination program, even though the vaccine is made there because the multinational corporations who are making the vaccine have business plans and you have to have to buy this from them. You don't get it just because it's being made in your country. So what guarantee again do we have that we would get any of this if there were a pandemic?

FRANCOIS-PHILIPPE CHAMPAGNE: Well, the biggest thing we've seen, Carol, is a restriction on exports. I mean, talking to CEOs around the world in that sector, what they say is Canada is a safe bet. Stability, predictability. We're a country which has not put restrictions on exports. One of the arguments I use is to say that we're the G7 country with the smallest population. So if you come to Canada, you'll be able to serve the domestic market easily and then you can use your facilities to export to the world.

CO: Are you saying that this company, that, is committed to fulfilling its obligation, whatever we need of it in Canada before it will be able to export? Is that what you're saying?

FRANCOIS-PHILIPPE CHAMPAGNE: Yes. Yes.

CO: Is that a contractual obligation that the company has made that...

FRANCOIS-PHILIPPE CHAMPAGNE: It's part of the arrangement we have with the company. So there's the domestic needs and that's why we're investing, because when you make these investments, there's a quid pro quo. And then we would not be able to attract these companies if it was just for the domestic market but, look at the size of the investment, close to a billion. So we say serve the domestic market, then you can export to the rest of the world.

CO: But let's just talk a bit more about what Canadians get from this. They say job creation, but if we're investing a half billion dollars in creating this partnership with Sanofi and then we have to buy the vaccine from them, if we have need of it, then we pay twice. We pay this company to be here in Canada and we pay it in order to buy what it's making, even though it's contractually obliged to sell it to us. So then we end up paying twice, right, as Canadian taxpayers?

FRANCOIS-PHILIPPE CHAMPAGNE: Well, I think you can say if they invest half a billion in research and development to build the ecosystem to create jobs in Canada. Let's be honest, Carol, we were fighting with about every other jurisdiction who would want that investment because they understand the potential for their own population and also for their economy.

CO: You talk about needing, wanting a made in Canada solution to what we have just confronted. And yet there are people like the companies like Calgary's Brad Sorensen's company, Providence Therapeutics, we talked to him in January about his frustrations with your government and not even returning his calls when he was ready to have a made in Canada MRNA vaccine, very similar to that of Moderna. And so there have been these options before turning to a multinational corporation? Why didn't we take advantage of that?

FRANCOIS-PHILIPPE CHAMPAGNE: What we did, we invested close to a billion dollars on covid to support domestic capability. I spoke to him and he would say to you, these companies are in early stage.

CO: I think you talked to him after our interview, but he said that had you invested when he was saying he had the ability to do that, they would have been up and running with vaccines by June.

FRANCOIS-PHILIPPE CHAMPAGNE: Well, I think we have invested and we've always rely on the vaccine task force and the experts. These decisions are made by peers. And I talked to him. I said you have to convince your peers about the technology and everyone who raised their hand. We provided funding. We provided 10 million to them. But for those who are just in clinical trials and there many, he's just one of many that we have invested. You can compare that with a company which has already a vaccine. We need to support everyone. But the ones who is the most advanced Canadian company is Medicago in Quebec, which is in phase three trials for which we provide 173 million to say, listen, not only we're going to help you with the tests, but we want you to build already the facility in the hope that your Canadian made vaccine will be approved by the health authorities.

CO: Mr. Champagne. We're going to leave it there. And I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

FRANCOIS-PHILIPPE CHAMPAGNE: It's always a pleasure. Thanks for inviting me.

CO: Bye bye.

FRANCOIS-PHILIPPE CHAMPAGNE: Thank you.

CH: Francois Phillipe Champagne is Canada's federal minister of innovation. We reached him in Toronto and you can find more details on this story on our website, CBC.ca/aih.

[Music: Mystery music]

Bolsonaro Government Crisis

Guest: Paulo Teixeira

CH: Brazil's government is in crisis, and some believe it might soon spell the end of the presidency of Jair Bolsonaro. The country has just hit a new daily high covid death rate. More than 300,000 people have died since last February. And Mr. Bolsonaro is finally starting to pay a heavy political price for his handling of the pandemic, as well as his demands of personal loyalty from the armed forces. The heads of the Army, Navy and Air Force have all quit in protest, and the country has cycled through four different health ministers in the last year. Paolo Teixeira is a federal deputy with the Brazilian Workers Party. We reached him in Brasilia.

CO: Mr. Teixeira, can Mr. Bolsonaro, can the president survive this political crisis?

PAULO TEIXEIRA: I think in a small time, in the short time, he can survive, but I don't think he can survive until the end of the year, because there are many crises, it's a health crisis because the pandemic conditions in Brazil, there is also economic crisis, a social crisis and a political crisis. So this year will be a very difficult year for him.

CO: All right. Let's talk about... They're all connected, aren't they? But let's talk about the political crisis. You have a bunch of resignations from the military. Can you tell us about that?

PT: Is this the first time in the history of Brazil that the chiefs of the armed forces, they renounce. It never happens. It's the first time that the chief of the army, the chief of the Air Force and the chief of Navy force, they resign. Why? They resign because the president wants to make a conflict with the governors and they say, no, we don't want to make a conflict against the governors.

CO: And also you have more than 300,000 people have died from covid in your country. You're the second largest number in the world. And 25 percent of all the deaths in the world are in Brazil at this point for covid, is that right?

PT: Yes. Bolsonaro is directly responsible for those deaths. So he wants a conflict with the governments that are doing the right things.

CO: When you say a conflict with the government, there is like a clash with the governors and these are the governors of the states, the individual states in Brazil, they want to have more lockdown's they want to take this pandemic more seriously. Is that the centre of the tension between them and President Bolsonaro?

PT: Yes, it is. It is because they want to lock down to save lives. And the president is against the lock down. You know, he wants to see people in the streets, the everything open, the economy working. And he doesn't want... It doesn't matter if people die. So this is the central conflict. He didn't buy vaccines before in August of last year when he had to buy vaccines, he didn't buy. So that's the problem we have now.

CO: And the health minister we've changed health ministers so many times. I don't know who's there now. And also five other cabinet ministers have left the Bolsonaro government. But is he not still quite popular? I mean, the numbers indicate that there are more than half of Brazilians seem to keep supporting him. So you say that he is in a crisis, but does he still have a fair bit of support in Brazil?

PT: In four Brazilian three are against him? He has the support of one of each four Brazilians. You know, so the question is, he's very weak now, but he has a little bit of support. Twenty five percent of support. But I don't think he will get until the end of the year because those guys are working together and he's not a good person to cross this... Those crisis, so I don't believe he will survive.

CO: He has told people to stop whining about the virus. He's called it a flu. He has failed to get very many vaccines for the country. Is that affecting very many people in Brazil or is it mostly in the north of your country where the biggest crisis is?

PT: The crisis now is not only in the north part of Brazil. If you talk about the crisis last year, it was mostly in the north and north east part, the problem. Now, the problem is all over the country. All over the country in all the states, so the problem is the national problem, it's almost the same problem.

CO: We know that Mr. Bolsonaro, he was elected because people believed he would clean up the corruption in Brazil. They thought he was a strong man who could do that. Do you do they trust the opposition? Are you offering anything? You say that he is not long for this job? Does the opposition really have the strength and what people would vote for? Can you sell yourselves?

PT: Oh, I think he was elected by a fraud of Steve Berman, which was the same person that made a fraud in USA. So now the opposition we have a brand new question. Here is Lula. Lula came back and Lula is very strong. So now Lula comes and has many popular support. So I think it made many difference in terms of the balance of politics here in our country.

CO: Mr. Teixeira, we will leave it there. It's fascinating but troubling what is going on in Brazil. I appreciate you bringing us up to date. Thank you.

PT: Thank you very much.

CH: Paulo Teixeira is a federal deputy with the Brazilian Workers Party. We reached him in Brasilia.

[Music: wind instruments]

Last Blockbuster

Guest: Sandi Harding

CH: The popcorn is cold, the battery on your laptop is about to die. You've spent a movie's length of time trying to pick a movie to watch. So you accept defeat. Cue up a random episode of The Big Bang Theory and weep. It's overwhelming trying to decide what to stream with so much selection and so many algorithms. It's hard not to long for the days when you could just stroll into your local Blockbuster and pull a spontaneous selection off the wall. That nostalgia is something Sandi Harding has been banking on for years. We first spoke with Ms. Harding back in 2018 when her rental store in Bend, Oregon, became the last blockbuster standing in the United States. And now, thanks to a new Netflix documentary, her store is back in the spotlight. We reached Ms. Harding in Bend, Oregon.

CO: Sandi, how is business?

SANDI HARDING: Business is great. You know, having the documentary come out on Netflix during spring break was really good for our store and our community. It's definitely brought a whole bunch of people to come and visit.

CO: Visit or are they renting, are they taking away DVDs?

SH: They're doing both. So, you know, the best case scenario for us with all of this newfound fame that the store has is that we're getting people back and renting movies. And, of course, we have people coming in and buying T-shirts and whatnot if they don't live in Bend. But we set up a ton of new accounts. So it's been wonderful.

CO: Oh, really? So, I mean, there's like the old-fashioned... Do you get an account you got at Blockbuster? You come in, you browse through the aisles. I mean, this feels like ancient history, now. You find the DVD you want and then while you go home, I guess now what do you do? You haven't got your DVD player anymore.

SH: So, yeah, you know what, actually, there's a lot of people that do still have DVD players. I actually had a father with his kids that came through for spring break and they actually went down to local goodwill and bought a DVD player, rented some movies and watched them. And then re-donated the DVD player when they were done. So it was like very sweet that they went and did that. But he wanted his kids to have the experience, you know, of going into a Blockbuster store and how, you know, we do our day every day, but they unfortunately can't now.

CO: What are they renting? What are the hot movies that people are taking out?

SH: You know what? It's kind of funny. It's all over the board. Obviously, the most popular movies over the last year have been, you know, the Marvel movies, of course, but it's everything. We have people coming in and renting the old classic 80's comedies and kid movies. I mean, it's just really all over the place.

CO: And now just tell us what the store looks like. Is it kind of a classic Blockbuster?

SH: Oh, absolutely. Nothing has changed. I've worked here... This is my 17th year and we haven't changed a thing. We still have the popcorn feelings and the blue and gold everywhere. And nope, nothing's changed.

CO: And there's a certain smell in a Blockbuster. Does it have that?

SH: Yes, it absolutely does. And we have a Take 'n' Bake pizza next door. So first thing in the morning when you come in, you've got that, you know, pizza smell as well as the old movies. So it's great.

CO: I need an aerosol of that. We put it in, package it up somehow and sell that. But you're selling a lot of merchandise, right? You got a lot of people, people taking souvenirs, buying souvenirs of your Blockbuster, right?

SH: We do. And actually we do a lot of sales online, too. We have a website bendblockbuster.com where we have people from all over. Lots of Canadian orders, as well as things from the states and all over the world, people buying stuff to help support the store.

CO: And do you need the support or do you think that now you actually can see that this is going to survive?

SH: Well, obviously, when it's busy, we always know that we'll survive. But long term, you know, we do still need the support because when the interviews stopped and, you know, the TV personnel stopped coming around, you know, we're going to still try to stay open. So we absolutely always need support.

CO: We spoke with you last in 2018 when your store became the last standing blockbuster in the United States, when the other two, I guess, in Alaska shut down. And then the only other one in the whole world, which is in Australia, it shut down. You became the only one on the planet that still existed. Now this Netflix documentary that's come out. What has that done for your business?

SH: Oh, it's been great. And the documentary is actually filmed by a local film crew here in Bend. And we had started filming this back in 2017, even before we became the last one in America. And it's just been a whirlwind for us. And lots of wonderful things have happened over the last couple of years. And, you know, the fact that we were able to survive through covid, which, you know, every small business owner out there knows the struggle that's come with that. But, yeah, having the documentary on Netflix now has definitely brought a new group of people that hadn't heard about us yet into awareness of the store and helping.

CO: So and what's the story that the Netflix documentary tells?

SH: It talks about the story of how Blockbuster, you know, rose up and then fell off so quickly and some of the really bad decisions, including not buying Netflix, when they had the opportunity, but it also focuses on, you know, our day to day life as Blockbuster employees and what we have to do to survive and keep our store going.

CO: That is a very funny side story, which is that Blockbuster could have bought Netflix, but thought it was a fleeting thing, the streaming service, and decided to give it a pass.

SH: Exactly. And yeah, when you watch the movie, that's definitely a funny spot. And I'm sure there's someone out there kicking themselves right now.

CO: But there is this other irony that a documentary about Blockbuster, about your video rental store released on Netflix is what has this new surge in your business, Netflix, which basically a streaming service destroyed the video rental store. Is that a bit of a twisted irony there?

SH: It is. And, you know, even in the movie, it talks about that it wasn't just Netflix. It was, you know, all the different options in the entertainment business. But a lot of it had to do with the poor decisions that were being made, you know, during that same timeframe that allowed, you know, streaming services to really knock us out quicker than we probably would have gone. But, you know, the irony is definitely not lost on us. It's pretty funny, you know, at this point, we're just grateful that people know about the store. And if it means it's on Netflix then it's on Netflix, it is a funny twist.

CO: What do you think it is? Just finally, what is the nostalgia? What is it that your store appeals to for people?

SH: I think it's the fond memories. You know, everything is pretty chaotic in the world at the moment, especially over the last year. And I think every single person that thinks about Blockbuster remembers the happy times in their lives of going into the store. And it was a much more simpler thing. And everybody loves movies and everybody loves the escape. You can go in and rent your favourite movie and forget about everything for a while. So as I've said many times, if we can bring a smile to people's faces and help them remember some very fond memories, then we're very grateful to be a part of that.

CO: Well Sandi it's good to talk to you again. Thank you.

SH: Thank you. And have a wonderful day.

CO: You too. Bye bye.

CH: Sandi Harding is the general manager of the world's last Blockbuster. We reached her in Bend, Oregon.

[Music: slow jazz music]

Early April Fools

CH: Corporate wordplay is almost always ham fisted or chicken fisted, like when KFC apologised for a series of closures in the U.K. due to a chicken shortage and issued a mea culpa that read F C.K. It can also be beef fisted, like when the International House of Pancakes briefly rebranded itself Ihob. The B was for beef, both clumsy efforts, but at least basically harmless. Whereas when it comes to Volkswagen's new attempt at an apparent American rebrand, things seem to be backfiring. In what appeared to be a leaked press release earlier this week, the company announced its plan to become Volt's wagan of America, as in the Volt's that would power all the electric cars they plan on selling. But folks or Foltz, I guess, weren't sold on the name change. And it turns out regulators aren't buying it either. Volkswagen has admitted that the announcement was a botched and premature attempt at an April Fool's joke. And now the company is reportedly under investigation for the pranks effect on its stock price. All this over a spilled tea. Of course, we all dread the corporate jokes that ruined April 1st every year. But in this case, it seems like people may be a bit too hung up on the letter of the flaw.

[Music: upbeat music]

Part 2: NY Pot Convictions Expunged

NY Pot Convictions Expunged

Guest: Eli Northrup

CH: After years of pressure from advocates, New York has legalised the recreational use of cannabis, and the bill isn't just good news for adults who want to light up legally in the future. It also erases past pot convictions from the criminal records of thousands of New Yorkers. Eli Northrup knows how a simple charge of possessing a joint can ruin someone's life. He's a public defender and policy counsel at Bronx Defenders. We reached him in New York City.

CO: Eli, how did you feel this morning when that bill legalising marijuana was signed?

ELI NORTHRUP: I was proud and happy as a New Yorker, as an advocate. I really think we have the best bill in the country in terms of marijuana justice.

CO: When it was being signed. Was there anyone in particular, any story that was in your mind?

EN: There's so many. Here in New York City, you know, we used to have something called stop and frisk, which was outlawed, basically police officers had a tactic of just going up to young black men and stopping them and searching them and violating their rights once that was outlawed. What we saw was that police would just basically do the exact same thing and claim that they smelled the odour of marijuana to justify that same violation. This bill has a provision in it that explicitly prohibits that. And I think that's going to mean a lot. I think it's going to really change that dynamic. I've had so many clients who have been through that real violation of their rights and there's so many more people who never became a client of mine because police didn't find anything and they let those people go on their way. But it still violated their rights. So I thought of many, many people that I've represented. I'm hoping that this bill can help benefit them.

CO: And this is not to allow anyone to have any amount of pot. Right. This is a very specific amount. Can you tell us what the limits are?

EN: As of right now, you can now have up to three ounces of marijuana legally. Eventually, you will be able to have up to five pounds of marijuana legally in your home, although that's a little bit down the line.

CO: And how many people did you see go to prison for having exactly that in their pocket?

EN: You know, it wasn't so much people going to prison for possessing marijuana. It was people who went to prison because police claimed to smell the odour of marijuana and searched them and found something else. Or it was people who had marijuana convictions who really suffered harm because of those convictions. So people unable to get jobs, people unable to go to college or get student loans. But even worse than that, people who were deported for having a conviction for a single joint of marijuana. So people suffered a lot, you know, even if it wasn't because they're serving years in prison at the state level, there's a legacy of harm done when you have a conviction on your record.

CO: And that legacy affected black people and people of colour more than others. Can you just tell us how these laws against pot were racist?

EN: It wasn't the laws that were racist. It was the enforcement of the laws that were racist. And this is something that we don't just see with marijuana. We see it with all low level offences. But it was especially pronounced with marijuana and it was dramatic because it's studied and a known fact that white people and people of colour use marijuana at equal rates. And yet in New York City, over 90 percent of the arrests made for marijuana were for people of colour. So it was undeniable that there was racism in the enforcement of this law because everybody was breaking it, but only certain people were actually suffering the penalties. That's why it was so important that this bill not only just legalised marijuana going forward, but actually deal with repairing those past harms. So there's provisions in this bill that will automatically expunge records. There's provisions in this bill that will mandate that 40 percent of the tax revenue from marijuana sales goes back into those communities that were disproportionately affected. And there's also provisions in the bill that ensure that people from those communities and in fact, people that have experience selling marijuana will be able to participate in the economy. So it's not just some big corporation that comes in and makes money off of this substance for which people have suffered and been penalised for.

CO: But the state will make money from this. And so do you think that that was the incentive finally that brought New York to this place?

EN: I think there were a number of incentives and the different incentives for different people and different incentives for different politicians. I think the fact that New Jersey legalised marijuana and they're our neighbouring states made it clear that people were just going to go right across the river to get their marijuana from there. But I do think that the racial justice aspect of the enforcement was a huge part in this. And I think you have to give credit to the activists and the organizers who for years have been saying we can't just legalise this. We need to actually repair harms, ensure that there's justice. We could have had a much worse marijuana bill a couple of years ago, a bill that just legalised marijuana and gave all the money to the general state fund and didn't expunge records, didn't invest in communities. We as activists and really organizers from places like the Drug Policy Alliance and Vocal New York held strong and said, no, we don't want a bill that doesn't repair harm.

CO: How then do you think that this law will change lives and change communities?

EN: I hope that it will prevent police from harassing, stopping and violating people's rights. The expungement provisions. And the vacature provisions are huge for people suffering immigration consequences who are in deportation proceedings or who could be placed in deportation proceedings for marijuana. It should give people. Opportunities to participate in this economy, it's going to be a huge economy and it should create a lot of jobs across the state, not just in New York City, but upstate, you know, where there's farmland and people can grow and cultivate marijuana. Overall, in my experience as a public defender. It's rare that criminal laws help people. So the fewer criminal laws there are for drugs, the better. I think it can only help our society.

CO: And what do you think will happen in other states? Do you think that this New York will set an example for other legislatures?

EN: I really hope that it does. I mean, if you can do it here, you could do it anywhere. And I think there's really strong provisions in this bill that other states should look to. I think it's only going one way. States that have legalised they can make their provisions stronger. But, you know, every week you hear about another state decriminalising or looking to legalise marijuana. I really hope that they'll look to New York as a model because I think it's going to work out for us.

CO: Eli, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

EN: You're welcome.

CH: Eli Northrup is a public defender and policy counsel at Bronx Defenders. He's in New York City.

[Music: percussion instrumental]

Liddy Obit

CH: He would have done anything for his president and he did G. Gordon Liddy died yesterday. He was 90 years old. Mr. Liddy was convicted of conspiracy, burglary and wiretapping for his role in the Watergate burglary, which led to the downfall of President Richard Nixon. After he was released from prison, he reinvented himself as a talk show host and actor, touring colleges, debating counterculture guru Timothy Leary and appearing as a villain on shows like Miami Vice and appearing as a villain in real life to anyone who expected him to apologize. Part of his unlikely second act was writing his memoir, Will, in which he claimed to have eaten rats and held his hand over flames until he burned his flesh as a boy in a bid to toughen himself up. He also said he'd been involved in unfulfilled plans to assassinate an investigative journalist during his time working for Nixon. In 1980, G. Gordon Liddy was a guest on As It Happens. He told Barbara Frum about the stories that became part of his self created mythology.

G. GORDON LIDDY: It's funny or not funny, but interesting. It's always raised by interviewers and some people, I think, suspect that the book isn't true. And they always say, well, there's one way we can find out. And they say, let me see your scars. Of course we can't do this over the telephone. But when I show them the scars, they sort of look at those scars and then they nod and they know the book is true.

BARBARA FRUM: Listen, my problem is, Mr. Liddy, I believe you.

G. GORDON LIDDY: Oh Okay.

BF: I believe you burned your hand. I'm searching for who mutilated you in infancy to require you to do these things?

G. GORDON LIDDY: I required it of myself.

BF: In your mind during the whole period we call Watergate draw lines. Did you say, OK, I agree with Nixon about Ellsberg, but boy, if they asked me to do that, that's too much.

G. GORDON LIDDY: No, I was never. I was never asked to do anything that I thought exceeded the rational or that did not square with my conscience.

BF: But killing people, that's different.

G. GORDON LIDDY: Well, in wartime, awful lot of people kill an awful lot of other people. Killing is either justified or it is not. It is either justifiable homicide or murder. I would not commit murder. I would not hesitate to commit justifiable homicide under appropriate circumstances.

BF: But that's what I mean. You didn't apply moral standards. You get an order, you do.

G. GORDON LIDDY: No, I would apply moral standards. It may be...

BF: What if, what if...

G. GORDON LIDDY: For you to understand as a Canadian citizen, but this business of going in and bugging other the opposition's office and things like that is as United States like as mom and apple pie.

BF: So you see yourself first and last as a patriot ready to serve his country?

G. GORDON LIDDY: Well, no, I see myself first and last as a citizen who certainly ought to be willing to serve his country as best he can in adverse circumstances.

BF: And I guess the good thing for you is that there's always some external foe to make war with. Because that's the nature of life, isn't it?

G. GORDON LIDDY: There's always another dragon. Let's put it that way. I mean, I remember when we... When the Korean War ended and we were all mustered out guys, I well, the next will probably be in Tibet. Well, I wasn't in Tibet. It was in Vietnam. I don't know where the next will be. Maybe I was predicted to be in the Middle East and it would turn out to be somewhere else. The one thing I can assure you is there'll be another war.

BF: Well, that's got to keep you in work at least.

G. GORDON LIDDY: Well, I would hope that when the time comes, I'll be physically able to serve my country.

BF: Thank you very much, Mr. Liddy.

G. GORDON LIDDY: You're quite welcome. Nice talking to you.

CH: From our archives, there was the late G. Gordon Liddy in conversation with the late Barbara Frum on As It Happens in 1980. Mr. Liddy, who organised the Watergate burglary, died yesterday. He was 90.

[Music: electronic instrumental]

Charlottetown Resto Bills

Guest: Steve Murphy

CH: There's still no such thing as a free lunch, but on Prince Edward Island, there is such a thing as half off. The province has now expanded, a successful program to subsidise the food sales of struggling restaurants. It's led to packed houses and has helped businesses survive the lack of tourists over the past year. Steve Murphy owns two restaurants on PEI. We reached him in Charlottetown.

CO: Steve. How's your restaurant looking for bookings tonight?

STEVE MURPHY: Tonight's a great night. Believe it or not, during the middle of a pandemic, we were more than full. We're at the point of we're turning people away.

CO: Wow, so this is at the Slaymaker & Nichols.

SM: That's correct. In Charlottetown.

CO: And this is one of yours. And you got another restaurant as well?

SM: Yeah, we have another. It's a seasonal restaurant up on the North Shore, and it's called Blue Mussel Cafe. It'll open for the season in May long weekend.

CO: Right. But now this one in Charlottetown is open all year.

SM: That's correct.

CO: And so now, since this government program, how's business been?

SM: It's unbelievable. I'll be honest. It was more than we expected. So this programme runs Sunday through Wednesday. And the government has put on a 50 percent discount for anybody that dines in up to a maximum of 15 dollars per person. So [inaudible], as long as you're dining at a full service restaurant, the minister, the PPI tourism is paying 50 percent of your bill.

CO: That's per person?

SM: Per person. It's up to fifteen dollars per person, 50 percent obviously does not include alcohol, but otherwise, food and drink on top is covered. And it's only Sunday through Wednesday, which is great because as a restaurant, we're already busy Thursday through Saturday.

CO: And so people are coming in by themselves with families? What's happening?

SM: Yes, it's actually become... They've been coming in droves. To be honest with you. This has been a fantastic program for not only for restaurants, but for all industry. We literally went from a point of being 50 percent full on a Sunday through Wednesday to being 100 percent full. And actually last Sunday we turned away two hundred people. We only seat thirty five and we had to turn away two hundred people. So it's people are coming in from all over.

CO: Of course, you know, you're making everybody jealous. Just the thought that you could actually go in hordes to a restaurant anywhere. But that's the way... P.E.I is capable of that because of your infection rates, right?

SM: Yeah. You know, we seem to forget that being on the island, we've had such a low infection rates as restaurants. We've been open through this whole time. We've had a few short circuit breakers. But for the most part, we've been operating mostly business as usual with the usual protocols in place for social distancing and barriers and PPE. But otherwise, you're right, we seem to forget that the rest of the world is not operating the same way we are.

CO: So why was business down? Why did the government have to do this if things were kind of business as usual?

SM: Well, there's a couple of things that are going on. Most people... Most people have one night a week that they go out. This is kind of what normally happens. And most people want to go out on a weekend. So the weekends we were full and, you know, again, at a reduced capacity because we have a limited seating. But we were full on weekends. But through Sunday, through Wednesday, we were empty as majority of restaurants. And part of the thought process is, is that people were saving money, you know, during the pandemic. They didn't want to maybe want to spend as much or weren't as eager to go out because they're not sure what's going to happen financially. So everyone saved up their money and they all went on the weekend and everyone seemed to go out the same days.

CO: But now they're coming out because the government's picking up half the tab.

SM: Yeah, I mean, it became you know, it's one of those things... Definitely, because of pick up the tab. But it's one of those things that has become an event. Right. So it's something to do. It's a chance to get out and go to the streets. It happened to be timed with great weather. We're experiencing an early spring. So the whole city of Charlottetown and most of the island is just a buzz of people just wanting to get out. I think we've been at home locked up enough. We're eager to go out a second at a week, and it's even easier to do when the government's picking up half the tab.

CO: Now, what about your servers and your waitstaff? How are they enjoying this?

SM: You know, it's a double edged sword for them. So if you look strictly at tips and how they're making they're probably making fifty percent of the tips they would have normally made. See, what happened is, you know, we've conditioned the guest on how to tip and how to tip easily by creating these buttons on the machines that they automatically just press a button, 20 percent. Twenty five percent, whatever it is, and without looking or thinking too much about it. And when the bills at fifty percent, they're still using that same logic and pattern. Now, the first week that would happen in the second week, we've run this, it's caught on and that's changed. But so the servers were catching a little less percentage tips. But the way my son explained it to me, he works here for us as well as a server. You know, he's twice as busy as we used to be. So we still go from 50 percent full to 100 percent full. And he's working three or four days a week, Sunday through Wednesday that he wouldn't have work. So it's all bonus money to them.

CO: But is there any way... They're being run off their feet at the same time? Is there any way to sort of nudge the customers into an awareness that they should maybe compensate for what the government isn't paying in the tips?

SM: Well, here's what I love about the island, is they did that themselves. There's a grassroots Facebook groups that have come out and it just brought attention to the fact that that's going on. And again, most guests were just not aware of it. You're just so conditioned. There's a habit to how you tip and use those machines. So, yeah, the island kind of took that upon themselves and the word got out.

CO: We know that what business in P.E.I is, while the tourism is really your big source of income isn't it? And especially that other restaurant that you'll be opening seasonally. The government, P.E.I government is putting 875 thousand dollars into this program, which is a lot of money for P.E.I. and probably not sustainable. If you don't get the tourists back, if you don't open, can you survive?

SM: Well, that's the question, right, and that's what we're all I mean, we spent a lot of time talking about that as industry groups and individual owners, and we did it before we got through it with a lot of help from the government, a lot of programmes that they put in place. And I think we'll get through it again. The reality is, I think we're looking at this as this summer is not going to be like last summer. We've got such a low infection rate here. Our public health office has done such a great job of keeping us all safe, keeping the borders screened as they come through that we really feel we're going to have the Atlantic bubble this year. We really think that things are going to be better than last summer. They may not be back to 2019 levels, but we're definitely heading in that direction.

CO: Well, it's supper time in Charlottetown, so I'll let you go, Steve. Thank you.

SM: Thank you very much.

CO: Bye.

CH: Steve Murphy owns two restaurants on Prince Edward Island. We reached him in Charlottetown.

[Music: guitar instrumental]

Devo Day?

CH: Should tomorrow be Devo day in Akron, Ohio? Yes. Is tomorrow Devo day in Akron, Ohio? I'll tell you tomorrow. Devo are the most important band ever to come from Akron, which is not the faint praise it sounds like. In the early 70s they started making weird conceptual satirical music based loosely on the premise that humanity was going backwards. De-evolving and their first few albums were masterpieces of off kilter nerd rock that came with a whole philosophy and aesthetic. Weirdest of all, they even had one bona fide hit in the pseudo motivational anthem Whip it. Well, yesterday, the website Consequence of Sound published an article claiming Akron Mayor Dan Horrigan had declared Thursday Devo day in the city, partly in order to push Akronites to vote for the band to be inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. "We are and will continue to be immensely proud to be the home of Devo'', the mayor said, "and will be rallying this great community to help them achieve the recognition they deserve", Unless he didn't say that. Tomorrow, after all, is April Fools Day and the local paper has been unable to confirm that City Hall supports or is even aware of Devo Day or Devo for that matter. So it's not clear whether the whole thing is a joke and if it is, who's joke. But if it's confusing, strangely complicated and hard to interpret, that is perfectly fitting. The Devo is in the details.

[Music: Techno Music]

Lady Rodney

CH: The ship the Ever Given is now long gone, freed from its embarrassing chapter of the Suez Canal, but it will forever be lodged sideways in our memories. And looking back now, after all the jokes, puns and memes, Ever Given's six day jam isn't nearly as bad as it could have been. Back in the late 60s, a Canadian made ship named Lady Rodney found itself trapped in the canal and instead of six days, it was there for seven years. Here's Dan Conlin, a curator at the Canadian Museum of Immigration at Pier 21, speaking to CBC Halifax about that story.

DAN CONLIN: Lady Brodney was built in 1929 of a group of five beautiful white ocean liners that ran between Halifax and the Caribbean. By 1953, she was starting to become an old ship and quite expensive to run. And then a Canadian government was kind of backing away from running ocean liners. So they went looking for a buyer and the Egyptian government bought the Lady Rodney and her sister ship Lady Nelson and put them into service, serving passengers between the Mediterranean and the Red Sea. Lady Rodney ran from sort of ports in North Africa through the Suez Canal, down to the Red Sea, was very popular for people making their pilgrimage to Mecca. And the Egyptians actually renamed Lady Rodney as Mecca. And she carried on that task until 1967 when the war broke out between Egypt and Israel. The Six Day War and Egypt made the decision to block the Suez Canal. And they took this sort of a former Canadian ocean liner, big, beautiful ship, and they sank her at the northern entrance to the Suez Canal, along with another slightly smaller coastal passenger ship. The Isnaily and the two of them very effectively blocked the north end of the Suez Canal and they sealed off this international sort of artery of trade. In fact, they did it so quickly that there were a dozen ships that were trapped in the middle of the canal making their transit. And Lady Rodney, with such a big effective sunken block ship that the canal, Suez Canal remained closed from 1967 until the end of 1974. The Egyptians had to kind of make a deal with the U.S. Navy to cut up the sunken hulk of Lady Rodney or Mecca as she was known when she sank and it took them five months. You know, we think we think five days was a big deal to get ever given the way. But this sunken Canadian liner blocked the Suez Canal for seven years, and they had to actually cut the ship apart bit by bit using the original plans that they mailed off to Scotland and Ottawa to kind of finally remove the ship. And then the Suez Canal reopened in 1975.

CH: That was Dan Conlin, a curator at the Canadian Museum of Immigration at Pier 21, speaking to CBC Halifax this morning.

[Music: elevator music]

Ukraine Borscht

CH: When a chef in Kiev told us that borscht is 100 percent Ukrainian, he was also saying that the beet soup is not Russian nor Polish. It may be the national dish of other countries, but chef Ievgen Klopotenko has no doubt the soup was made first and best in Ukraine. When chef Klopotenko spoke with Carol. He had conducted months of research to back his claim, which point he called on UNESCO to look at the history and back him up. And yesterday, Ukraine's Ministry of Foreign Affairs officially nominated borscht for UNESCO's Cultural Heritage List, making Ukraine's bid for recognition a borsht to be reckoned with. From our archives, here's part of Chef Klopotenko and Carol's conversation, which first aired in November.

CO: Why do you want borscht recognised as being Ukrainian?

IEVGEN KLOPOTENKO: We have a lot of dishes, but when USSR came to our territory, it took everything. It took our religion, took our language, and they took 90 percent of our food. And when I discovered that information, when I discovered a lot of our almost dead dishes, I found out that we should fight for our... Not fight but OK, we should save our dishes, which are part of us. It's very important.

CO: When you say we should fight...and you changed your mind quickly because in fact there is fighting between Ukraine and Russia that's really been, it's taken a lot of lives. But the Russians are claiming that borscht is theirs.

IK: It's not about fighting. It's about how it is that this dish is ours. It's not Russian, but Russians, they want to take that because they think that there is no such a nation as Ukrainians. And, oh, it's like funny, who is that? Ukrainians. Is it just about nothing.

CO: There are, though, some people quoted since you have launched this campaign with UNESCO to recognise borscht, there are Russians who are saying that, you know, Ukrainian borscht is the best. So some Russians are admitting that this is really a Ukrainian dish, right?

IK: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it is so. And you can find a lot of historical documents. Where the Russians write down about that. But it's 100 percent that it is Ukrainian. But if Russia will recognise and will say, yeah, OK, this Ukrainian borscht it will mean that a lot of Russians will eat something Ukrainian and then we'll understand and say, OK, now we feel that we eat something Ukrainian and the Ukraine is a nation. So it's a very philosophical thing, why I want to do this.

CO: There are other nationalities, though, that think that borscht is theirs. I mean, my Polish grandmother made a mean borscht. You know, the Poles have some claim to this, too, don't they?

IK: Yeah, it's okay. But I think that my mother made me pizza. So what I should say that pizza is Ukrainian dish, no. Polish Russians, Latvians and I don't know, maybe a lot of Chinese people, maybe some of Mongolian, maybe some of Georgian people, they can eat borscht. And Ukrainian nation as it is. We have only 30 years here. And the before that was a different country is like a big Polish country [inaudible] who took all our territory, then was USSR, who took all of our territory. And that's why, each of them can think that when they come to our territories, they took our best dishes. Then they went from territory, but they left the best what they took. I think we can win. I don't want the borscht in a whole world called the Russians.

CH: Chef Ievgen Klopotenko speaking with Carol in November. Yesterday, Ukraine's Ministry of Foreign Affairs officially nominated borscht for the UNESCO Cultural Heritage List.

[Music: piano instrumental]

Part 3: Top Glove

Top Glove

Guest: Ana Hinojosa

CH: Over the course of the pandemic, the Malaysia based manufacturing company Top Glove has been a key supplier of PPE material to more than half the world. But according to U.S. customs authorities, the pressure to fulfil all those orders is coming at the expense of Top Glove employees. An investigation by the Border Protection Agency shows that the company has been using forced labour to make its products. Which is why the U.S. has now banned all Top Glove imports coming from Malaysia. Ana Hinojosa is the executive director of Trade Remedy Law Enforcement at the U.S. Customs and Border Protection Agency. We reached her in Washington, D.C.

CO: Ms. Hinojosa, as you know, there have been questions about this company, Top Glove and its labour practises. What made U.S. Customs decide it was time to seize their productions coming into the United States?

ANA HINOJOSA: We have had an investigation on Top Glove with regards to their manufacturing of rubber gloves in their Malaysian facilities for some time. And as you know, in July, we issued a withhold release order. And since then, we've continued our investigation and finally were able to develop enough evidence to be able to issue the next level of enforcement, which would be a finding.

CO: And what does that do? What effect does it have on the imports of these disposable gloves from this Malaysian company?

AH: Well, when we issue a withhold release order, which is what we did in July, we send out a notice to all of the ports and they would then process a detention order on any shipments that arrive at our borders. Once a finding is issued, which is what we issued on March 29th, then those shipments are no longer subject to detention. They're now subject to seizure.

CO: And that's what you've done. You've seized the products coming in from that company?

AH: We now have an order out to seize any shipments that arrive from that company. Yes.

CO: What have you learnt about top glove's practises that resulted in this shutdown?

AH: Well, we have been working very closely with Top Glove since July of last year in order to help them address the forced labour indicators that we found in their production. But certainly part of our investigation did find some conclusive evidence with regards to some debt bondage, excessive overtime and what is considered abuse of working conditions as well as abusive living conditions.

CO: What does it mean, debt bondage? Can you tell us what's going on there?

AH: Debt bondage is a situation where workers are required to repay debts. Generally, when you have situations of migrant workers, many of those migrant workers come from poorer countries where there aren't enough work opportunities. And so oftentimes they get recruited and there is a recruitment fee that the worker is expected to pay. But since they don't have the money, they actually go into a debt bondage situation where they're required to work in order to pay off that recruitment fee, as well as any other additional expenses that are incurred in them actually obtaining the job.

CO: And then the other issues there, this abuse of work conditions. Can you tell us a bit about what else you discovered about what's going on in their factories?

AH: Generally, abusive working conditions relate to situations where workers are expected to work far beyond what the local country's labour laws require. You know, most recently, I think the pandemic certainly has had some added requirements for the production of different types of products. And those manufacturers have had resorted to trying to get more work out of the available workforce in order to produce those products. And that sometimes exceeds the legal requirements or the legal limitations from the labour laws.

CO: And this is the labour laws in Malaysia. This is not something that the United States is imposing of its own labour laws, right?

AH: Absolutely. We only look at what the conditions are in in Malaysia in this case. And when we're looking at analysing the factors for forced labour, we are looking at the international standards. We're not looking at U.S. standards or U.S. work requirements. It's very much international standards that we're abiding by.

CO: Some of the other discoveries about this company, Top Glove, the working and living conditions are found to be quite bad and that they're... The company is retaining identity documents. Tell us about that, what does that do to the workers?

AH: When companies retain the identity documents for workers, if they are migrant workers who are not citizens or residents of a particular country that significantly limits their ability to move or their ability to leave the country if they don't have their identity documents.

CO: What does that mean for your ability to import the PPE that they were producing?

AH: Importers are not able to import glove's produced by Top Glove in their Malaysia facilities. They do have facilities in other countries. We don't have any either withhold release orders or findings on their production in other countries. But for the production out of Malaysia, they are not able to bring those products into the United States.

CO: But what have you another source, because this is a huge, huge source of these kinds of PPE, has the United States identified a replacement source for the gloves that you will not be able to bring in from those factories?

AH: At the time that we were conducting that investigation. We did an assessment as to the volume of U.S. imports of these particular products. And we made a determination that based on the totality of the circumstances, that the amount of imports of Top Glove from Malaysia was not going to substantially impact our domestic supply of these types of gloves.

CO: Is it possible, though, that Top Glove can circumvent your U.S. customs by, say, bringing those gloves into Canada and then shipping them to the United States?

AH: Most of the time it's importers other than Top Glove that are bringing those products. So is it possible that importers could try to circumvent the U.S. finding on Top Glove? Sure. I mean, we have people who are always looking to find a way to defraud the government or to evade our restrictions. However, we are very confident that we are constantly monitoring the trade information and keeping tabs of where those shipments are moving to. And we also have a very close working relationship with our colleagues at CBSA. And we're very enthusiastic about Canada's commitment to strengthening their forced labour enforcement under our agreement under U.S., Mexico and Canada agreement.

CO: All right. We'll leave it there. Ms. Hinojosa I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

AH: Thank you, Carol.

CO: Bye.

AH: Bye.

CH: Ana Hinojosa is the executive director of Trade Remedy Law Enforcement at the U.S. Customs and Border Protection Agency. She's in Washington, D.C.

[Music: Guitar instrumental]

Trans Mountain pipeline

Guest: Tom Gunton

CH: A new study says pouring an 11 digit sum into the Trans Mountain pipeline is pouring money down the drain. The construction cost of the pipeline has more than doubled since Ottawa bought it from Kinder Morgan three years ago for 5.4 Billion. And now in new research, Simon Fraser University professor Tom Gunton and his colleagues estimate that the project will cost Canada several billion dollars more than that and result in a huge net loss for the country. Mr. Gunton is the director of the Resource and Environmental Planning Programme at SFU. This morning he explained some of the factors that he says support his team's finding, including last week's Supreme Court decision to uphold the carbon tax.

TOM GUNTON: We could find no scenario, and we tested a number of different ones in which this project could result in net benefit. Why is that? The Supreme Court decision and climate change policies, that's a major factor because that is reducing the demand for oil worldwide and in Canada. And oil companies are now shifting out of oil and getting into green energy and other sectors. So demand for oil is going down, number one. Number two is that their alternative pipeline projects being developed that are low cost, about a million barrels being brought on by Enbridge and others. Number three is that the cost of this project has skyrocketed from the original 5.4 Billion, up to 12.6 Billion. And then the fourth factor, Stephen, is the environmental costs associated with the project, greenhouse gas emissions and oil spill risks. And so what we did is we [inaudible] federal government guidelines. We looked at all of these different factors, all the potential benefits as well, and added it all up. And as I say, our best case estimate is a loss to Canada of 11.9 Billion. And we could find no scenario in which this project could generate a net benefit for the country.

STEPHEN QUINN: And I'm curious about timelines here. When you say the demand for oil has dropped, over what period of time have you seen it drop and how significant has that drop been?

TG: Well, since this project was proposed in 2013, oil demand has continued to weaken. Prices back then were around 100 dollars a barrel and dropped to below 60. But it's really accelerated, Stephen, in the last year or two years with climate change policies being implemented. So we saw the major oil companies like British Petroleum forecasted oil demand has already peaked in 2020. And that was a first. In terms of that, we've seen the International Energy Association say that oil demand will have to decline by approximately a third to meet Paris commitments. So there has been a significant shift just in the last two years. And, you know, it's interesting the federal government has aggressively promoted their climate change policies, which is reducing the demand for oil. But at the same time, ironically, they are still building a pipeline for yesterday's economy, despite the fact that we're shifting away from fossil fuels. And so their policies are really contradictory on this, and that's resulting in a significant cost risk to the country.

CH: SFU Professor Tom Gunton speaking with Stephen Quinn, the host of the Early Edition in Vancouver. Ottawa has called the Trans Mountain project a responsible investment, and the industry also disputes some of the study's assumptions and findings.

[Music: guitar instrumental]

National Indigenous Languages Day

CH: One of the strange silver linings of the pandemic is that keeping people physically apart has united us in other ways and in many indigenous communities that coming together has been happening around language. The native Canadian centre of Toronto says its indigenous language classes suddenly have students from all across the country thanks to Zoom. Manitoba radio station NCIFM says it has more listeners speaking more languages than ever. And indigenous language TikToks have been going viral. Inspired by those successes and in celebration of National Indigenous Languages Day today, we decided to revisit one of our all time favourite stories about their resurgence.

[Sound Clip: Blackbird in Mi'kmaq]

CH: That's the sound of Cape Breton High School student Emma Stevens singing a Mi'kmaq translation of Blackbird by the Beatles. If you're a regular listener, you may recognise it from when we first played the tune back in 2019. At the time, Miss Stevens teacher Katani Julian had recently facilitated that translation, and Carol spoke with her and Emma Stevens about the project's incredible resonance.

ES: They speak to me in a way. I feel like it makes me more hopeful for, like, everything. And it should help with, like, how our language is slowly disappearing. It's kind of going away in those lyrics make me feel more inspired to, like, learn my language more than I already know and to show, like, non-Mi'kmaq people the beauty of the song in our language and Mi'kmaq.

CO: And you know what? You had exactly that effect because people were writing and contacting our show last night after we played it and talking about how it brought tears to their eyes, even though they didn't... They know the lyrics in English but had never heard it in your language. And someone said, please give me a whole album in this language. I will pre-order it right now. So did you know you're going to have such an effect on people who don't even know your language that it touched them like that?

ES: No, and I'm glad that it gave them kind of a new view on music. Our language is such a beautiful thing and not a lot of people hear it. And I know it's just like a little song, it's a little cover. But in our language it's really beautiful and it just makes a big impact.

CO: I want to ask your teacher. Hi, Katani.

KATANI JULIAN: Hi.

CO: About the translation. So how did you go about translating Blackbird into Mi'kmaq?

KJ: Translating songs that are in mainstream culture, like songs like by the Beatles can be difficult because there's some concepts that we don't have in our language. Like, for example, it would say like take these sunken eyes and learn to see we don't have that concept of translation. And it just sounds really odd. The concept of sunken eyes would be you do not see properly your vision is impaired. So I just took that concept and I explained it to my dad, who was helping me, it was a little hard. I had to go back and forth with my dad about certain topics.

CO: What's the Mi'kmaq word for blackbird?

KJ: Pu'tliskiej

CO: You mentioned the lines. Take these sunken eyes and learn to see, you were only waiting for this moment to be free. I mean, these are universal ideas, aren't they?

KJ: Yeah, absolutely. And it's familiar to us as native people. And from what I understand, Paul McCartney wrote this about the civil rights movement in the United States. So in some sense, you know, we have something in common with the civil rights movement because to some extent, our people have been oppressed in this country, you know, by the Indian Act and, you know, by the federal government and, you know, the whole residential school thing and attempts at assimilation. So, you know, it spoke to me personally like that. So it really strikes a chord in my heart as well this song.

CO: What effect did it have on to your dad when he saw Emma in the video singing the song that he had translated?

KJ: Well, he didn't know what I was asking the translation for. He wasn't too familiar with the song. But I went to him the other day before it was released. And I told him, I want to show you a video of this young girl singing. And he says, Why are you showing it to me? I said, because this is what you helped me translate several months ago. And this is the culmination of the project. So I played it for him. And he's usually not at a loss for words very often, but he was absolutely quiet and he's a tough guy. But he had tears in the corners of his eyes and he loved it so much.

CO: In this last... That last refrain, Blackbird, fly, blackbird, into the light of the dark black night. And Emma, when you sing that it's so rich, I'm translating in my head but that learning it, sang it in Mi'kmaq. How does it change do you think when you're singing it in your own language?

ES: Makes me proud to be first nation. Being First nation is a really big part of my life. Like that is the biggest part of my life, and I'm so passionate about my culture and my heritage that like it gives me a good, warm feeling inside, hearing it in Mi'kmaq and hearing those lyrics in mi'kmaq.

CO: What other songs would you like now to maybe sing Mi'kmaq?

ES: There's not a lot of songs that you can translate Mi'kmaq because not a lot of words would fit. And I would like to write my own songs in Mi'kmaq like "My unama'ki"

CO: That's a song you sang?

ES: Yes.

CO: This is "My Cape Breton"? I told you our listener would like you to have a whole album in Mi'kmaq with your voice on it. Do you think that one day we'll have that?

ES: Definitely. I would love to do that, and I hope so, too.

CO: And I hope that we hear that soon. And I thank you so much for speaking with us and for singing this song for us.

ES: You're welcome.

CO: And Katani, thank you for your translation and for speaking with us as well.

KJ: Thank you very much for having us.

CO: All right. Bye to you both.

BOTH: Bye.

CH: From May 2019, that was Carol's conversation with Nova Scotia high schooler Emma Stevens and her teacher, Katani Julian, about their Mingma version of Blackbird. We reached both of them in Casoni, Cape Breton.

March 31, 2021 Episode Transcript

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