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The AIH transcript for April 10, 2025

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: Reduced to rubble. A journalist at the scene of what was a beloved nightclub in the Dominican Republic tells us how a night of celebration and dancing turned to horror in an instant -- and investigators still have no idea how it happened.

CH: Out of sight, but not out of mind. In France, a presidential hopeful suggests migrants could be deported to Saint-Pierre-et-Miquelon, islands off the coast of Newfoundland. Our guest says that plan is both offensive and logistically impossible.

NK: The age-old question. With the election approaching, a recent retiree in British Columbia says she's asking the leaders to explain how they'll help people like her and stand up for Canada.

CH: Against the law. In New Zealand, a controversial bill that spurred thousands to march in protest is officially dead. But a Maori MP there's still a lot to do to ensure her people aren't just surviving, but thriving.

NK: They took the sting out of it -- and he wants it back in. After the tardigrade is named "Invertebrate of the Year", a Talkback caller tells us another competitor should have had more buzz: the humble, occasionally horrible, wasp.

CH: And...all work and no play makes...our guest successful at completing his retirement goal. Which was to solve the mystery of the final photo in the movie, The Shining -- not by saying "Here's Johnny!" but by asking "Who’s Johnny?”

CH: As It Happens, the Thursday Edition. Radio that loves a photo finish.

[theme]

Part 1: DR Nightclub Collapse, ELXN: B.C. Retiree, ‘The Shinning’ Photo

DR Nightclub Collapse

Guest: Indhira Suero

CH: The band was playing. People were dancing. And then, in the early hours of Tuesday morning, the roof of a night club in Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic collapsed. So far, at least 221 people are confirmed dead. Today, mourners poured into the National Theatre in Santo Domingo, to pay respect to the victims -- including merengue star Rubby Pérez, who was onstage at the Jet Set nightclub when dust started to fall from the ceiling. And seconds later, the roof caved in. Prosecutors went to the scene today, and said the government will launch an investigation to try to piece together what caused the roof to collapse. Indhira Suero is a TV journalist and host of El Dia, a political show in the Dominican Republic. We reached her in Santo Domingo.

NK: Indhira, I know you were at the scene of the nightclub and the collapse earlier today. What was it like there?

INDHIRA SUERO: It was very sad because basically, I was able to see that there's not much hope left, unlike the other days at the moment even of the tragedy where people thought that they were going to get their loved ones alive, but now it's completely different. Now we see a lot of authorities and heavy machinery lifting bodies and recovering debris, but there's not much hope, unlike in the other days, sadly.

NK: I've seen some photographs and video of that work that you're describing, but just the damage. How would you put it into words, what you've seen up close?

IS: Well, before there used to be a nightclub that was very traditional here in the Dominican Republic, a place where you could go to have fun, to dance, merengue, salsa, all those tropical rhythms, but now, there's only left a building that it's been demolished as the hours go by and there's not much of what used to be before. Usually, we had parties in that place. It was on Monday nights.

NK: It was packed on Monday.

IS: Yeah, it was packed. It was completely packed because the singer that was performing, Rubby Pérez, was also an artistic institution here in the Dominican Republic. He was someone that had a very long path in the business, in the music industry, and that was very admired not only by people who enjoy his music, but also for a lot of Dominicans and people from countries as well.

NK: There were high profile guests in the audience as well, but other Dominicans, obviously, as you said, enjoying this big, big night. I know you've spoken to survivors about how they escaped, what did they tell you?

IS: Well basically, what they tell me was that it was all of a sudden. No one was realizing what was happening. The ones that I spoke with, they told me we were just having fun. I was speaking with someone next to me and all of a sudden the roof collapsed and that was it. Everything went to black. And that's the same experience that most of the survivors mentioned. Everything was fine and all of a sudden, black. For example, one of the survivors that was speaking to me explaining to me what happened he told me I was sitting next to someone but I realized that it was among the list of people who lost their lives.

NK: It's so much for people to deal with. Rubby Pérez is among the dead, we know. What are families who are still searching for answers telling you?

IS: At this point, the authorities already finished with the phase in which they tried to save people. Now, they're just recovering bodies. So, the families are no longer in the area of the Jet Set. That's the name of the nightclub. They're now in institutions that deal with bodies, pathology, forensics, and all of that. So, they're waiting in those places to get some information of their loved ones. A complaint that it's, that most of the people are putting into the media is the fact that they're not getting answers as they would like to get answers in the time frame that they would, would like. So they're waiting for authorities to tell them that, yes, we collected the bodies of your loved ones. We are here come to and identify them. So, they're still in that phase, which is a very difficult phase among the mourning and of the sadness that comes with this type of tragedy.

NK: Of course, yeah. And then all of the questions. We don't know what caused this collapse yet. The investigation on that will continue, certainly. But were there any markers or questions about safety, concerns about safety before?

IS: I've seen some videos on social media of the weekend before this one. And there were some videos that showed some type of dust falling from the ceiling. And employees of the nightclub were cleaning, removing the debris, but that was it. Again, it was just a video from social media. I'm not sure if that video is from the day of the disaster or, actually, if it's the weekend after. So, that's something yet to be determined. Besides that, in 2023 there was a small fire caused by an electric storm and that was it that I know of. But after that, nothing else.

NK: Our producer in speaking with you, but also another journalist was talking about the difficulties getting answers at this stage. You know, when the last inspection was done, for example.

IS: There are a lot of questions that not necessarily have answers right now because they're in the removal of debris and lifting bodies and all of that. But eventually, I hope, and we all hope as a nation, we will get some answers.

NK: Our listeners, Indhira, heard about the three days of mourning, the memorials that have been happening. As those memorials carry on, I mean, how are they coping? The scale of this disaster seems quite a bit larger than some of the other things people may have dealt with recently.

IS: Yes, it's actually very major from in the recent history of the Dominican Republic, something major. For example, we had, I think two years ago, there was a huge explosion in a building in a small town called San Cristóbal, and the death toll in that tragedy was only 38 people. There's no comparison, actually, because the amount of people, of dead people, is huge compared with other things that happened in the recent years.

NK: Indhira, I appreciate your time and reporting. Please take care.

IS: Thank you.

CH: Indhira Suero is a TV journalist and host of El Dia, a political show in the Dominican Republic. We reached her in Santo Domingo.

[bright, slow piano]

ELXN: B.C. Retiree

Guest: Atusa Partovi

CH: The stock market rollercoaster is making a lot of people very queasy these days. Donald Trump's wildly unpredictable, on-again-off-again tariffs have sent the markets on some steep climbs, and some steeper drops. Among those most rattled by the ups and downs are seniors watching their savings dwindle. During the election campaign, As It Happens is talking to voters about what matters most to them, as they prepare to cast their ballot. Atusa Partovi is a recent retiree. She lives in Port Coquitlam, B.C. -- and that's where we reached her.

NK: Atusa, how do you feel when you look at your bank balance these days?

ATUSA PARTOVI: Oh, when I look at my retirement fund, the past few days have been very anxious because I see the balance just dropping lower and lower. And so, it came to a point where I said, I'm not going to look at it anymore. I'm just leaving it. I'm going to go look at. But then I said okay, well, I need to get back and go look for a job again. So, I've been doing that now.

NK: Already, and you just retired a few months ago. Retirement is new for you. Did you ever think you would have to start making those kinds of choices again so soon?

AP: Not really, no. I wanted to do some volunteer work. I still might do that, like, get engaged with doing something good. Maybe do something like a hobby thing, but not going back and looking so full-force and seeing that the planning that I had done is not going to materialize, not in this way. So, I would have to go back to work for at least maybe a year or another two years or something, yeah.

NK: I think a lot of people can relate to what you're saying, that anxiety looking at their retirement funds or even just their bank accounts. So, as you look ahead to the decision you're going to have to make in terms of the federal election, what kind of questions do you have as you at the different major party leaders?

AP: I would like to know who they are as a person and how they are going to help Canada and Canadians navigate this landscape in which we have been thrown in right now because of all of the tariffs and everything that is happening? When I look at it and I think, like, there is a global economic war that is going on, I don't understand maybe the ins and outs of it. Like yesterday on the news, they were saying something like, was this something to work the market? And what I look for in a leader, what I want them to do is, I would think somebody who has some knowledge of the market, knowledge of economics, someone who can navigate, who understands numbers and who understands finances. Who's, you know, financial-minded and numbers-minded and economic-minded. But also, have the strong strength of character to stand for Canada and for Canadians in the face of what is happening, and to stand up to foreign powers and say I'm going to protect Canada and my people.

NK: Is that similar to how you felt in previous elections? Or do you feel something different this time around because of what's going on?

AP: No, this time around I'm more invested and interested. And in previous years, I wasn't that invested. Sometimes, when I would look at all of the candidates and I didn't see anything that I could rely on or that I liked what I saw, I wouldn't even vote. But I think this time, it's very important that we all vote because it's really important to elect a leader, whoever that may be, who is going to not only stand up for Canada internationally, globally, but also to help bring us out of this.

NK: The parties are making promises, you know, trying to reach seniors such as yourself. The Liberals say they would increase the guaranteed income supplement by five per cent for a year. They would reduce the minimum amount that has to be withdrawn from a registered retirement income fund by 25 per cent for a year. The Conservatives say they will allow working seniors with a yearly income of $32,000 to earn as much as $34,000 without paying taxes and that you could continue to contribute to RSPs up until the age of 73 rather than 71 as it is now. And the NDP say they're going to raise the guaranteed income supplement. That's a lot to weigh, obviously. But do those kinds of promises speak to you or matter to you at this stage?

AP: I think, like, they're all good and steps in the right direction, but we have a bigger problem than that as a country, like everyone, not only seniors, like, even like when you think about affordability, like, young people not being able to afford or affordability all across the board. But aside from all of that, I think the bigger problem is what are we going to do in the face of all of these tariffs? How do we make Canada resilient? If we have a Canada that everybody has a standard of life that is dignified, then I think a lot of the other internal problems will probably move towards some kind of resolution because we are fixing things.

NK: You live in a part of British Columbia in an area that's very competitive between the Liberals, Conservatives, and the NDP. How do you think you're gonna make that final decision when you go to cast your ballot?

AP: Well, I'm going to watch the debates that come and then see. But I notice now leaders when they're talking, or when they are on the news, or when you see the ads for them, they're always talking bad about the other. I don't like that. Don't tell me what somebody is not doing. Tell me who you are, what you're going to do, when you're gonna do it, and how you're going to help Canada out of this. Be honest. Be transparent. Help me to trust you. Help me to believe in you, right? So, I hope that the debates don't become a verbal match between the parties, like you did this and you did that and you're not doing this and we are going to do that. No, focus on how you're going to navigate this turbulent time. All wishful thinking, I suppose. [both chuckle]

NK: Well, they might be listening to you, so we'll see what happens. I'm very glad we could speak, Atusa. I appreciate it, and I hope things settle down for you and that if you do have to look for a job in the end that the search isn't too difficult. Thanks for this.

AP: Thank you very much.

CH: Atusa Partovi is a retiree in Port Coquitlam, B.C. She's one of the voters from across the country that we're talking to during this election -- and asking, where are you feeling the squeeze?

[ambient]

LR: Best Invertibrate

CH: Last night, a nation held its breath -- as we revealed the creature that had won the Guardian's 2025 "Invertebrate of the Year" contest: the tardigrade. To some, this was fine. To others, a debacle that may have been the result of a conspiracy by Big Tardigrade. Hey, I'm just reporting what people are saying. Anyway: then we asked you to call in with your favourite invertebrate. And one of you really delivered:

SOUNDCLIP

[Yay! We end the week with a Talkback beep]

HARRY REESE: Harry Reese, King Lake Ontario. So, in regards to my favourite invertebrate, it would be better to say a insect I respect, and that would be the wasp of Norfolk County. Because when, in my farm, the wasps are pretty well everywhere. As for invertebrates that I would say have a wasp-like quality, that would be the Massasauga rattlesnakes, because they basically, the rattle doesn't actually sound like a rattle but more like a dying wasp, so I generally have learned that when I hear a dying wasp, it's probably a Massasauga rattlesnake. Thank you.

CH: Thank you for the call, Harry. It’s a great pick on the wasp. A healthy respect for wasps is essential to not getting stung repeatedly. We also appreciate you expanding your discussion to include wasp-like vertebrates, especially ones that sound like dying wasps, which we will no longer investigate due to the possibility they are really Massasauga rattlesnakes. There's still time -- by the way, everyone else -- to let people know about your favourite invertebrate. Talkback is standing by: call 416-205-5687. Or email us at aih@cbc.ca.

[show tune]

‘The Shinning’ Photo

Guest: Alasdair Spark

CH: What a pleasant, relaxing song. Not necessarily the kind of song you'd expect to follow images of a river of blood pouring out of elevators, and a sweaty guy with an axe hobbling murderously around a hotel. But this is what plays at the end of Stanley Kubrick's The Shining, right before the credits begin. And in this final scene -- spoiler alert for a movie from 1980 -- the camera zooms in on a wall of photographs in the isolated Overlook Hotel, where Jack Nicholson's character Jack Torrence has just pursued his wife and child in a violent rampage:

SOUNDCLIP

JACK NICHOLSON: Here’s Johnny!!!

CH: In that image, we notice an eerie detail: Jack is at the centre, surrounded by partiers in this photograph. And the date on the photograph reads "July 4, 1921." But he looks the same age as he does in the rest of the movie...which is set in the '70s. What does it mean? Was Jack Torrence a reincarnation of a past hotel manager? Or has he somehow been absorbed into the very fabric of the malevolent hotel? We may never know the answer. But Alasdair Spark has uncovered the answer to another question about that photograph: where did the real life image come from? And who was the real person at the centre of it? The retired academic has just solved that mystery. We reached Mr. Spark just outside Winchester, U.K.

NK: Alasdair, as retirement projects or hobbies go, this is an unusual one. What made you want to take on this mystery?

ALASDAIR SPARK: I suppose I had time on my hands. And browsing social media, I came across posts that were claiming that this photograph showed devil worshippers, or members of the evil financial elite. And that Stanley Kubrick had tried to prove all this in the film and it had all been suppressed. And I thought, I don't really think that's true and I'm going to find out and determine what actually is going on in the photograph. And I'm happy to say I think I did.

NK: So, you wanted to debunk those conspiracy theories. And you, you know, in your academic life, you studied how these kinds of conspiracy theories take hold and take root, right?

AS: I did, yes. I published a few articles on conspiracy theories, and I was generally interested in them as a way of ideas being communicated. And since I bought all that stuff, of course, they've gone everywhere. They're now in government, as I think your government and my government now know.

NK: Are you a fan as well of the film?

AS: Oh, very much, yes. I suppose I wouldn't have been so bothered if it hadn't been that the film mattered to me. I thought it was an important film and it deserved better.

NK: So, this took months and months for you to complete. Where did you start?

AS: It did, yes. I started with the idea that perhaps we could identify a man in the photograph. Jack Nicholson had been pasted into an original 1920s photograph. The one that was used in the film is a photograph of a crowd of people in a ballroom and a man at the centre. Jack Nicholson is looking up at the camera. and a sense it's a perfectly ordinary photograph. People often thought it was shot on the set with extras but it wasn't. It was a real 1920s photograph and Jack Nicholson had literally been stuck over someone. Years later, the original photo -- or part of it -- emerged and the man Nicholsen was pasted over was visible. But nobody knew who he was, where it was taken, when it was taken, what was happening in the photo. And I thought, well, a good place to begin is can we identify who this man is?

NK: And so, then you connect with Arik Tolar, who's with the New York Times, specifically the Visual Investigations team there. Did you just reach out?

AS: He reached out to me because someone on Reddit, which is where a lot of this was done, used some facial software recognition to identify the man. But he actually discounted it and didn't think it was a proper identification. But I decided, actually, it does look quite like him. So, I looked further, I found images of this man, I found old movies of this man. And I thought, actually, I think that's not a bad match. Let's take it a bit further and see if we can prove that it is actually him. And with help from Arik, that's exactly what we did.

NK: And what were you able to uncover about him?

AS: Well, he was identified as a man called Santos Casani, a famous ballroom dancer in London in the 1920s. And I guess he would be in a picture of people in a ballroom. That's not surprising.

NK: Yeah, it's a great name.

AS: Yeah, not his real name, though.

NK: Of course not! [chuckling]

AS: When I looked, when I looked into it, I found out he had changed his name. That was in effect his stage name, though it's the name he died under. I found his real named was John Golman. He had served in the RAF. And when I looked at his RAF file, I was able to uncover much of his history. And that produced various things that explained elements of the photograph. What I learned was he was an RAF veteran. He had crashed his aircraft and been badly wounded. He'd had a lot of plastic surgery. And that accounted for the strange look of his face. And it's quite a sad story, really, to sort of go through and find out. We could not find the place, though. We couldn't find somewhere with the wallpaper, somewhere with decorations, somewhere with the similar doorway. Somewhere with the mirrors at the rear of the room, we could not find it.

NK: What do you make of the reaction what you've uncovered has gotten? It's gripped people.

AS: I'm quite pleased. I suppose I thought a few people might be interested. I was quite surprised when it went viral, as I think we say nowadays. But I think what really intrigued people was that the story of the man behind the picture was probably just as interesting as the mystery itself. He really did have a fascinating life, and he died in 1983 almost completely forgotten. And one of my great pleasures is to have put him back into the picture so to speak.

NK: You feel proud, as you should, I think.

AS: You can maybe hear it in my voice. [chuckling]

NK: I can, I can. It's quite delightful.

AS: I do feel a sense of achievement.

NK: Are you planning to take on any other mysteries?

AS: I don't know. I found this one so satisfying that I feel I ought to go and look for something else to do now. [NK chuckles] It's going to feel rather odd getting up in the morning as a retired man and not having this to do for a couple of hours. I can't tell you how many thousands of photographs I've looked at of British ballrooms and dance halls and nightclubs and restaurants and theatres and cinemas. None of that from a few days ago when I stopped. Well, I'm having withdrawal symptoms, possibly.

NK: [chuckling] Well, I'm glad to speak with you about it. Thanks, Alasdair. Take care.

AS: You take care, too. Bye-bye.

CH: Alasdair Spark is a retired academic and fan of The Shining. We reached him outside Winchester, U.K.

[jaunty instrumental]

Part 2: French Deportations

French Deportations

Guest: Christopher Weissberg

CH: It takes a lot to make a party criticize one of its own candidates. But Laurent Wauquiez appears to be a lot. The French presidential hopeful has prompted an outcry across France, and within his own party, after proposing that migrants awaiting deportation be sent to Saint-Pierre and Miquelon. Yes, the islands off the coast of Newfoundland and Labrador. Mr. Wauquiez suggested the islands' cold climate and frequent rain would make migrants consider returning to their homelands. That modest proposal has not gone over well at all: there are now calls that he be disqualified from the presidential race. Christopher Weissberg is a former French MEP representing overseas citizens in North America. We reached him in Levallois, France.

NK: Christopher, when you saw or heard these comments, I mean, do you remember that moment? Do you remember what you thought in those moments?

CHRISTOPHER WEISSBERG: Sure, at first, we thought it was a joke. We thought it kind of was The Onion version of our medias making a joke about it. And then, we found out that it was truth. And then, we became outraged and flabbergasted.

NK: You have connections with people across Canada, people who are French citizens as well. I know you know people who have connections to these islands as well, how do you think that the people you know, or maybe they've told you, how did they react to this suggestion?

CW: So, Saint-Pierre and Miquelon is a territory that is a real part, it's part of France. They have their own local government, but they have their own parliamentaries. And I checked out with my colleagues who are representing the French people living in Saint-Pierre and Miquelon, and they were absolutely amazed and shocked by the contempt of those comments from Laurent Wauquiez. I think it was, for example, the most ridiculous thing they've ever heard. Just to let you know, there are only one connection a week of flights going from Saint-Pierre to Paris. If you want to go on a regular day to those islands, you'd need to go through Montreal. So, imagine having some people who are under those warrants going through Montreal, Canada asking for the Canadian government to have them, then to deport them in Saint-Pierre and Miquelon. It's just stupid, plain stupid quote from Laurent Wauquiez.

NK: Why do you think he said it?

CW: It's based on Trump techniques, you know? I think the success of Donald Trump and the past election show that the most stupid things you make, make you sound and give you some audience. And people want to hear about it, even if it's a very bad buzz. And I think he's very low on the polls to win the primary election that he is contending for. And it was a way for him to try to get some highlights and some lights.

NK: And in terms of headlines, Saint-Pierre and Miquelon is not usually in the headlines. And then, this was the second time in recent weeks because of the Trump tariffs. So, do you think not only the connection to the type of politics you see with Donald Trump, but do you it was, you know, it was already in the news?

CW: Right. Yeah, I don't think, you know, maybe. [chuckling] I'm not in his head making the stupid comments, so I wouldn't know if it was related to the tariffs that Donald Trump, who ignores that Saint-Pierre and Miquelon is part of France, made about the tariffs. But what I know is that it is clearly a technique from this gentleman to try to reach a larger audience. And that's definitely a Trump technique. The only thing is that Donald has millions of followers and Laurent Wauquiez has just a few.

NK: He did, we'll see if that changes. I wonder if, whether people like it or not, it is working in terms of getting him attention. People didn't know his name, certainly outside of France before, didn't how to pronounce it, maybe even. And now, people are aware. I mean, he has that, a little bit of brand recognition now, so to speak. So, the tactic appears to be working.

CW: Maybe, maybe not. He's been in politics for many years in French politics, so French do know about him. I think he's just the underdog, and it was a way for him to try to reach his main contender. But to be very honest, the U.S. and France are different countries, and French don't like plain, stupid ideas like that that are just thrown in the middle of nowhere. Even, you know, Marine Le Pen is actually, who's our extreme-right leader, she has been in a strategy of what we call normalizing her speech. She's trying to be more mainstream. So, it's definitely not what's been happening in the U.S. where having some extreme, very radical rhetoric is going to bring up some people. I think on the opposite in France, the extreme right is trying to build up a much different strategy to try to look more mainstream. And so, this quote from this guy is just completely out of the blue and I think is not going to have any kind of appeal for him.

NK: And there has been criticism, and I was going to ask you about Le Pen's criticism as well. We spoke about her situation recently on the show, the case, the court case, the fact that she's barred from running for public office unless the appeals win, of course, for the next five years. So, you're saying that what he has said could potentially hurt what she and her party are trying to do. But ultimately, do you think he's trying to pick up her supporters? Like he sees a window here?

CW: Of course, it's part of the strategy. And the first thing that Marine Le Pen said after this quote was that it was plain stupid thing. You know, [chuckling] she actually mentioned that it was one of the most ridiculous ideas she's heard about. So, we know even in this part of the party this is not something that is considered as a good move.

NK: Christopher, I'm glad we could speak. Thanks very much for your time.

CS: Thank you so much.

CH: That was Christopher Weissberg, a former French MEP representing overseas citizens in North America. We reached him in Levallois, France.

[R&B]

NZ Bill

CH: The bill was never expected to pass. But for the many thousands who opposed it, its death is still a victory. In the fall, New Zealand's Act Party introduced a bill that aimed to reinterpret the country's founding treaty with its Indigenous Maori people. The Act party is a minor player in New Zealand's ruling coalition, and the bill faced immediate and widespread backlash. Thousands of people took part in a march across the country, decrying the bill as a threat to Maori rights. And now, the proposed legislation has officially died after being defeated in its second reading. Maori MP Hana Rawhiti Maipi-Clarke got worldwide attention after the bill's first reading, when she began a ceremonial Haka dance in parliament. Here's what she said in parliament today.

SOUNDCLIP

HANA RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE: This speech has been the most daunting speech I've ever had to write. And I've said, oh no, what am I going to say now? How are we supposed to voice the 270,000 written submissions, the 13,600 oral submissions, the 300,000 signatures in the petition, the biggest hīkui with 100,000 footsteps marching to parliament? How do we piece this all together in a five-minute speech? Here's how. We're not going to talk about the Treaty Principles Bill today. This bill was an undebatable and a non-negotiable debate. And the whole world knows our view on it. The real issue is not this bill, nor is it doing a haka, or practicing our Indigenous customs in parliament. The real problem is that this institution, this House, has only ever recognized one partner, one culture, one language from one treaty. When will the row of this House acknowledge the laws of this land, Tikanga and Te Tiriti o Waitangi. That is the real question of privilege here. At our darkest hour, we could have chosen to fight this, but we chose to survive this. This bill hasn't been stopped. This bill has been absolutely annihilated. Mr. Speaker, Aotearoa New Zealand made it clear to our country that it does not support this bill. We are not divided, but united. With the 90 per cent of our country submissions saying no. Mr. Speaker, it was the voices from Times Square New York to Kaikohe, the streets of Oxford to Ngāruahia, the Waitangi Tribunals, the Art on Kākahu, the anonymous person who sponsored thousands of Te Tiriti books, the hundreds of submissions from Whatawhata to Whangarei, the call of unity with Huia Motu across the country. This ignited an emotion that echoed with all walks of life, all races, all ages, and all genders across the world. Just remember, it was their voices -- their powerful voices -- that engaged to drown out this bill. These past two years have been completely about survival. This next chapter needs to be about steps to thriving. And our roadmap to our next destination has never been so clear. Brick by brick, we will move from surviving to thriving. Ka mate, ka mate, Ka ora, ka ora. Ka mate te pire, Kaora te iwi Māori. We had two choices, to live or to die. We chose to live. Ka ora tonu tātou, āke, āke, āke. [clapping]

CH: Maori MP Hana Rawhiti Maipi-Clarke speaking in New Zealand's parliament today.

[indie rock]

Little Log Library

CH: It may not look like much. In fact, the so-called "Little Log Library" is aptly named. It's little, it's a library, and it's made of logs. But for residents of Masset, British Columbia it's a veritable institution. And soon, it's being moved to a new location. So tonight, community members there are gathering to bid the building a fond farewell. Etchi Zaleski is a community support technician for the Vancouver Island Regional Library, who has spent the last 23 years working out of the Masset branch -- which she says holds a whole lot more history than its exterior would suggest.

ETCHI ZALESKI: I would say that like a book, you shouldn't judge it by its cover. [chuckling] It looks like, sometimes people think it's an abandoned building from the outside because we've got shutters that have the windows are closed. But when you come and you step through the door, it's very cozy and people often remark that it's much bigger than they thought it was going be. And it's got a very warm and inviting feeling because it's a, yeah, it's a log building, so it's very cozy.

CAROLINA DE RYK: And in your years working there, can you tell me about some of the moments you've had, some of interactions?

EZ: Oh, yes, I think of a particular program that I did that was called Traffic Jam Storytime. And I invited a really lovely RCMP officer, Mike, who was in the community at the time to come. And I went to the village office and I got a bunch of old street signs, like stop signs, and turn left here, please, and no parking. I put them up all over the library and I made a little car wash with streamers. And when the kids came in, I had these cardboard templates so they had a little cardboard car that they got to build and we gave them all driver's licenses and they got to make their own license plate with decals. And then, they got drive around the library. [CDR chuckles] And then, Mike would find them for turning in the wrong direction or doing something. And he would fine them things like, you have to, you went the wrong way, you have to eat more vegetables tonight when you go home. [CDR laughs] So, they were getting these really goofy tickets. And there weren't a lot of kids that came, which was kind of a blessing because had it been a packed story time, like it can be sometimes, we really would have had a traffic jam. [CDR chuckles] So, it was a perfect amount of kids. And everyone who was here had a lot fun. So, I really liked that one.

CDR: Yeah, and as you talk about it and describe the space and talk about your own history there, I mean, you've seen generations pass through this library.

EZ: Yeah. I have one family in particular, the Kershaldorfs, they've been really involved in the library. And so, their kids used to come after school and hang out, and then their daughter became the library page in Masset. And now, she works as the circulation supervisor, and her mom is actually one of the casuals in Massett now as well. So, you know, it really is quite a family environment around here. It's quite lovely.

CH: Etchi Zaleski is a community support technician for the Vancouver Island Regional Library, and librarian at Masset, B.C.'s "Little Log Library." She was talking to the CBC's Carolina de Ryk.

[indie rock]

Encore: Mammoth Meatball

CH: You've probably seen the many, many headlines -- and the many adorable photos. Headlines like "The Return of the Dire Wolf." But then, headlines like "A biotech company has, sort of, revived the long-extinct dire wolf." And finally, "No, those are definitely not 'resurrected' dire wolves." It's safe to say that a biotech company's claim that it has brought back the dire wolf from extinction -- in the form of cute fluffy pups that could not look less dire -- has been met with mixed reaction. Which reminded us of another so-called de-extinction project that got people talking. In 2023, visitors to the Nemo science museum in Amsterdam were treated to a mammoth meatball. I don’t mean, like, not a robust meatball. It was, you know, fairly big. I mean a meatball allegedly using the DNA of the long-extinct woolly mammoth. It was the creation of the Australian cultured meat company Vow. Here is founder Tim Noakesmith talking to Nil, from March 2023.

SOUNDCLIP

NK: Tim, I am looking at the calendar as we speak. April Fools Day is coming up, so, I need you to go on the record here. Are you guaranteeing that this mammoth meatball is not an early April Fool's Day prank?

TIM NOAKESMITH: You have my absolute word that this is a real, this is a real innovation. I'm not going to turn around in a few days and tell you it was one big joke.

NK: Okay, We've got it on tape now. What's the response been from museum visitors in Amsterdam?

TN: It's been massive. Yeah, we had quite a lot of press at our event in the museum yesterday. Everyone wants to talk about it. So, I've had a lot of interviews today, that's for sure.

NK: I bet. I've seen some images. It is quite large. Just describe it for our listeners what it looks like and smells like.

TN: Well, it's a mammoth meatball. So, it would be amiss of us to make it small. In terms of how it looks. It looks like a giant meatball. It looks like a meatball you'd expect from a mammoth. It's charred on the outside because to cook it, we needed to use a blowtorch on the outside after an oven bake. And in terms of the aroma, it's, it's super interesting. The mammoth protein that we ended up growing produced a, quite a unique aroma that was closer to things that we've tried like crocodile than it was to beef.

NK: Okay, most of us haven't smelled crocodile meat, at least anybody I know. So, is there any way to describe it?

TN: It's look, I would say it's a meaty aroma, but it's definitely a bit unique. So, perhaps your listeners will have to try some crocodile.

NK: I'm sort of the mind that always, you know, try everything once. I never, you know, say no to new food experiences. Rarely do. It doesn't look that appetizing. Now, was that something you took into consideration? Was this just to become a conversation starter? Are you worried that maybe it doesn't look appetizing to folks?

TN: I mean, it looks like a giant meatball. And I think unless you're really hungry, that might not look super appetizing, perhaps for our ancestors 4000 years ago when it went extinct. Maybe this was a delectable looking meal. But you're absolutely right. This was, rather than thinking about something that you can to go and pick up at the supermarket on a Friday night. It's something that we really just wanted to trigger a conversation about, about the future of food and about how it can look better and different than maybe what we're having now.

NK: We've had some conversations about lab grown meat or cultured meat, but just give our listeners a sense of what exactly we're talking about here.

TN: Yeah, basically we're looking at a new way to make meat, so a new way to seed cities and countries. And the way that we do that as we grow the cells of animals, in this case in big metal tanks instead of the animals themselves. So, we don't require large amounts of farmland or the kind of resources that go into that and the impact. Instead, we can do the same, but in a better way in electrified facilities.

NK: And how do you make mammoth DNA part of that process?

TN: Yeah, well, in this instance, the mammoth is quite a good and intact genome. So, it means that we have the DNA language of the mammoth. But like anything that's that old, it has gaps in it. So, what our team of scientists did is it filled the gaps with the genome of the African elephant, which is a very close relative. And then what we were able to do then is go into that DNA language and find the code responsible for a very specific protein. So, in this instance, it's something called myoglobin, which is responsible for a lot of the colour and aroma in the meat that we eat. And basically, we took that DNA language, inserted it into another cell, and that cell became like a factory, basically producing a protein that hasn't been on the planet for 4000 years now. And so, we grew 40 billion of these cells to end up making the mammoth meatball that you've seen in those images.

NK: And you picked the mammoth of all the extinct creatures in the world on purpose. Why?

TN: Well, two reasons. I mean, one, it's really to draw attention and start this conversation that the future of food can be different now. It can be more exciting. We can start to eat things that weren't possible before when we thought about our farming systems and domesticated animals. But the other one is that the mammoth is a symbol of loss. They were wiped out by climate change. And humans if we continue to scale that the way that we are and the way that we eat now, we're quite likely to potentially be the same, wipe ourselves out. And so, we wanted to draw attention to this idea that this can now be a symbol of hope. Maybe we can eat our way out of extinction instead of, like the mammoth was 4000 years ago.

NK: There's a reason I haven't asked what it tastes like yet, because it's not to be eaten. This mammoth meatball. Why is that?

TN: Well, I mean, again, we're dealing with a protein that's very, very old. In fact, there's no one on earth that can tell you exactly how that'll responded stomach. That's not to say that it wouldn't be safe, but we would want to put it through a large series of rigorous testing like we would with any product that we want to bring to market. Because it was a conversation starter. We built it and we released it to the world. Instead of doing all of that rigorous testing so, that we could do the tasting. So, it was never intended to be a new product to commercialize. It was intended to start a conversation like this.

NK: I'm sure you've heard Jurassic Park come up, the film, when people talk to you about this. But in all seriousness, there are, people do have concerns and wonder if there's sort of a Pandora's box being opened here when you're tinkering with the DNA of a long extinct species.

TN: Sure. Well, I can safely say that there's zero chance that the meatball is going to take flight and start attacking anyone.

NK: You're on, your own record now on two major points. Yes, we'll see.

TN: [laughter] But it's a fair question you ask. I mean, we are using very advanced biological genetic engineering techniques for this. But like any product, it can't come to market without seriously rigorous testing that is then filtered by regulators to see if it's generally regarded as safe. They're very strict on this, as you can imagine. We're very strict on it too, to make sure that anything that we produce is absolutely fit and safe for human consumption.

NK: Tim, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

TN: Thank you. Great to chat.

CH: From 2023, that was Nil talking to Tim Noakesmith, the founder of the Australian cultured meat company Vow, about an inedible meatball made of mammoth meat.

[indie rock]

Part 3: Mammal Brain Mapping, Vancouver Harbourmaster, Grizzly Hunting Ban

Mammal Brain Mapping

Guest: Forrest Collman

CH: There are our brains, and then there are mouse brains. And then, there are tiny portions of mouse brains. And then, there are tiny segments of those tiny portions of tiny mouse brains. And that is what a team of dozens of researchers has analyzed, in what's being heralded as a groundbreaking collection of studies, published in Nature. And somehow they've culled a truly jaw-dropping amount of data from that grain-of-sand-sized sample of mouse brain. One they say is equivalent to 22 years of non-stop HD video. Forrest Collman is a neuroscientist at the Allen Institute for Brain Science -- one of three major partners participating in the research. We reached him in Seattle, Washington.

NK: Forrest, images of this kind are often quite beautiful and breathtaking and the ones you've generated of this mouse brain data are certainly no exception. Can you give our listeners a sense of what this information looks like?

FORREST COLLMAN: Yeah, so the reconstructions that we're able to create in this kind of data from the brain are really highly detailed. And they show individual neurons, but they show all of them in a little chunk of brain. And so, first you realize what does an individual neuron look like, and it kind of looks like a tree of a type. it has one set of branches or wires that they kind of reach up and branch out in kind of a tree-like pattern. They have these little sort of like leaves hanging off of them, but there are these little spines. So, there's, like, texture on each of the branches and those are the inputs, those are the dendrites. And then, coming out of the bottom often of most of these neurons is what's called the axon or the output. And it kind of snakes around sort of like a complicated root system through space. And then, so that's that's kind of, you know, and it fills, goes lots of different places and branches and forms this complex pattern So, that's what one neuron looks like. And so, but what's incredible about this is that those neurons are all packed together and kind of scrambled up in a kind of like a giant spaghetti ball. Like, everything is just densely packed in there. So, it's the most incredibly packed forest you've ever seen in your life. There's everything as these wires and roots all, like, a giant root ball all mixed up together.

NK: You're amazed, even still talking about it and looking at it, even now, it sounds like.

FC: Yeah. It's pretty cool, yeah.

NK: It's known as a circuit diagram of one part of the brain. How did you and your team members, your collaborators, go about creating this resource?

FC: Yeah, so this was really a ginormous team effort that involved lots of people and lots of institutions. It started in Texas at the Baylor College of Medicine where they took a mouse and they were showing a mouse a bunch of kind of YouTube videos and then putting that mouse on a microscope that could measure the activity of individual neurons. The activity is basically, you know, neurons are sort of electrical and they turn on and they turn off. So, when exactly in the movie were each of these neurons turning on and off? And they could do that through a microscope that made the neurons glow brighter when they were active. And then, they sent, after the mouse had viewed a bunch of these movies and all of its neurons in this chunk of brain were mapped over several days in a really heroic experiment, they sent the mouse to the Allen Institute, where here we took it and we prepared it for what's called electron microscopy. And that involved taking its brain and embedding it in a, stain and in a hard plastic resin so we could cut it into extremely thin sections. And we went through a laborious process over 12 days and 12 nights with two people working 24/7 to cut over 25,000 ultra-thin sections that are 40 nanometers thin. They're like a tenth of the width of a human a hair where we had to collect all of them and couldn't miss more than one or two in a row.

NK: Why does it have to happen all at once like that?

FC: Because what we're going to do in the end is we're gonna take all those sections, we're going to image them all, and then we're going to put Humpty Dumpty back together again, stitch all the images together into three dimensions so that we can follow those wires, that giant root ball. Each one of them, we're are going to trace it through this three dimensional volume in order to find where do those wires touch and where do they talk to one another? Because neurons are not just neurons in isolation. They talk to each other in this really complicated network. And so, if we lost some sections, we wouldn't be able to trace the wire, right? If you imagine a spaghetti ball and you're following a wire and then all of a sudden you missed a bunch of data, after a bit, you wouldn't know which wire connected, right? You'd lose your way.

MK: Yeah.

FC: So, yeah, a lot of people worked very hard on all of these papers and getting them through the long process. It's the culmination of, yeah, kind of, marks the scientific, you know, uh... end of an era, so to speak.

NK: I bet. You know, back in 2021, researcher Vivek Jayaraman was on our program. He's with the Howard Hughes Medical Institute. He had helped create a similar kind of map.

FC: I know Vivek.

NK: You know him, yeah, about a fruit fly brain. Let's listen to a little bit of what he told us at that time.

SOUNDCLIP

VIVEK JAYARAMAN: All I do at dinner parties, if someone asks me about this work, I ask them to shut their eyes and then, you know, with their forks, like, let's say put whatever morsel of food they have on their fork into their mouths and they do it effortlessly. And then, I ask them how they did that. And they clearly use some kind of internal model to do that. They knew where the hands would be, they knew where their mouth was, understanding how you use internal models of that sort of the environment of your relationship to achieve fairly sophisticated goals is a pretty, you know, it's an easy conversation.

NK: Is it an easy conversation for us? For you? Is this coming up? What were you telling people?

FC: [chuckling] You know, I think people are really curious about the brain. And so, in that sense, it's always easy to talk to someone about something they're curious in, even if it's difficult to explain. So, I really enjoy trying to communicate and describe what it is that we're doing to everybody. That doesn't mean it's not hard to find the words and to not slip into jargon and all the things.

NK: Or, I mean, when you bring up fruit flies and mice brains at dinner, are you popular at that point? They're like there he goes again!

FC: [chuckling] Well, it depends. I think my wife will roll her eyes at me if I talk too much of that about brains at dinner. But yeah, I mean, people are fascinated by brains.

NK: No, it is fascinating.

FC: But you shouldn't talk about it for too long. [both chuckle]

NK: It is fascinating and I'm glad we're speaking about it, but when you talk about potential practical applications of this data, what do you want people to know?

FC: It's because we've been able to now acquire a volume that's big enough to cover all of the dendritic inputs and most of the outputs of individual neurons that we can start to see a picture of connectivity within here that starts to capture patterns that we've never been able probe at this scale before. And when we discover more and more foundational things about the way that the brain is organized, every time we discover one of those things, it's actually an opportunity to know in the future that that thing is actually being interfered with or going wrong in a disease context. And so, this kind of foundational research doesn't directly translate into like, oh, this is what's going wrong in the disease, but rather it, like, sets up a map that kind of shows you what are all the parts, what are the things and how they're supposed to work so that we can even know that there's something that was going wrong or have the ability to target it. And so, in this kind of work where we're establishing what are all the different kinds of cells that exist in the brain and how do they communicate with each other, we're setting up the opportunity in the future to even think about the idea that maybe we should target one of these cell types, or one of the connections that are existing in the brain. Because maybe that connection is getting broken in some disease context. But without knowing that it's there, it's hard to even imagine that kind of therapy or approach.

NK: Forrest, I'm glad we could speak. Thanks very much for your time.

FC: Yeah, thank you.

CH: Forrest Collman is a neuroscientist at the Allen Institute for Brain Science -- one of three organizations behind a new suite of studies, mapping part of a mouse brain. We reached him in Seattle, Washington.

[indie rock]

70th Anniversary Couples

CH: Most couples don't make it to their platinum anniversary -- which is, as anniversary buffs know, the 70th. But two couples in the U.K. are celebrating their 70ths together. They've gone double-platinum. Violet Budge and Leslie Flett got married in 1955 -- at the same time, in the same room, as Tommy Budge and Thelma Bruce. It was a joint ceremony. Now, the two couples have a combined seven children, eight grandchildren, and five great-grandchildren. Violet Flett told the BBC the secret to the success of her marriage.

SOUNDCLIP

VIOLET FLETT: Well, as I said, I worked all night, my man worked all day and we met in the middle, in the passing. That was the secret. You were never together long enough to follow.

CH: Fair enough. And later on, Ms. Flett offered some advice that was a little more encouraging for couples who would prefer not to avoid one another for decades.

SOUNDCLIP

VIOLET FLETT: Take each day as it comes and never go to bed in a quarry. Always say you're sorry and everything will just work out grand.

CH: Violet Flett, reflecting on her 70-year marriage for the BBC.

[island rock]

Vancouver Harbourmaster

Guest: Shri Madiwal

CH: There may be a 90-day pause on most tariffs from the USA in effect right now. But there's no pause button on the hives of activity where products come and go by ship -- the ports. Canada's biggest port is the Port of Vancouver Fraser. It's also one of the most diverse ports in the world, both in terms of the different types of commodities that pass through it, and the number of countries whose ships it serves. Captain Shri Madiwal is the vice-president, operations and supply chain at the Vancouver Fraser Port Authority and a former oil freighter Captain. We reached him in Vancouver.

NK: Captain, we've certainly been seeing the headlines and the reporting from U.S. media outlets, you may have as well, CBS, the Wall Street Journal, CNBC, and they're all talking about the situation American ports find themselves in, the challenges that they're facing because of the tariffs coming from the U. S. administration and from Donald Trump. Is Vancouver in the same boat, so to speak?

SHRI MADIWAL: Yes, some of the U.S. ports are predominantly focused on containers. And when you talk about containers, 90 per cent of the volumes are inbound coming from Asia. And that's the concern with the economic downturn being predicted. That's a very complicated situation for the U.S. ports and that's completely different for the Port of Vancouver where we receive almost 90 per cent or import containers that is for the Canadian market. And that's a good news story. We are still going to be thriving and we are looking at adding more capacity in the near future.

NK: Can the domino effect of what we're seeing and the impact it has around the world, but then, you know, price increases elsewhere, there's that domino affect that people are worried about, should we be concerned?

SM: And that's a fair question, Nil. As you know, the U.S. is the biggest economy in the world. Anything happens in the U.S. impacts everyone else. So definitely, if the recession that's been predicted materializes in 2025, that's definitely going to impact all the countries. And we'll see some impact on the consumer demand changes. So, that's going to impact some of the commodities coming into the port.

NK: Can you inoculate yourselves to that possibility, or maybe probabilities, some might say.

SM: Yeah, I think in the context of Vancouver, it's still a good news story, especially for the country as a whole. When you look at the top three exports on energy products, agriculture products, fertilizers coming through the port, metallurgical coal, the world needs food, the world need fertilizer, the word needs energy. There'll be some little demand shifts and drop, but not a whole lot of things. We've seen that during many economic cycles, the demand for food, energy, and fertilizers still continues to remain strong. And that diversification and what Canada has been able to export to the world is always to be important. And I'm sure that volume is going to continue to flow from the Port of Vancouver.

NK: We spoke to an import-export consultant based in Taipei yesterday who, I mean, when you talk about things changing from day to day, hour to hour, he was certainly feeling that and experiencing that. I mean, he told us, you know, he's seen people cancel entire orders because they were so spooked by the uncertainty around these U.S. tariffs. Are you hearing that kind of thing at the port of Vancouver as well? Are some orders being scrapped at this stage?

SM: At this point, we're not seeing it. Actually, we are seeing rebound. The first quarter has been really strong for us in terms of the volumes coming in, partly because people were trying to pre-order because of the tariffs, so there's significant volumes coming into the port of Vancouver. And if you're looking at the domestic market for Chinese good or coming to Asia, those tariffs doesn't impact Canadians in a way, or goods coming into Canada for domestic use. So, we're not seeing that kind of a concern at this point. So, that's definitely a good news story for the port.

NK: Do you see, I mean, it sounds a little bit from what you were saying that you might see some opportunities for Canada here in these difficult times in terms of being a shipping hub. Do you see that?

SM: I think that's a very important point. We continue to wait and watch and see how things materialize in the U.S. because it's a really complex aspect that is happening. It's not just about the tariffs, it is about the United States Trade Representative Action 301 on particular types of ships, so it is a complex piece on how that is going to materialize. But in case people are looking at different avenues to skip the tariffs and look at capacity available in Vancouver or in other ports in Canada, this is an opportunity. I think all ports are ready to deliver and see how we can support Canada for trade diversification.

NK: And specifically in terms of exports from Canada to Asia, are you anticipating any growth there?

SOUNDCLIP

MICHAEL KING: We don't know what happened. We don' know anyone's motivation, whether they thought he had passed away or anything like that. But yeah, no, this was, obviously, he was deliberately placed there by someone. With regards to the elbow, we had to put that back together with a very small plate. He's got a tiny little titanium plate on his elbow that has screws that are only 1.6 millimetres in diameter holding it together because he's such a little guy. But the main part there is to try and reconstruct the joint so that it becomes comfortable, doesn't have significant arthritis or anything later on, and he can get back to living hopefully a full life. And at this point, there's no reason to think that that won't be possible. Well, he came in here, he was a little bit nervous initially, but he's actually warmed up to us quite nicely. And I think now he's feeling a lot more comfortable. He really loves to see the nursing staff when they come in, and he started eating for us this morning, which is great. He's a pretty small sort of about five kilo poodle dog, brown in colour, but he is a really sweet guy. He actually is very friendly with people, and a pretty easy patient for us. So, he's become quite a firm favourite very quickly. Will he be up for adoption? That's up to the rescue organization that are the ones that are sort of his primary caregivers at this point. He does have a foster carer who is hoping to get him back with her, I believe starting Friday is when we're targeting. So, a couple of days from now. And then, they'll be looking after him through his recovery. After that, I think they're taking it one day at a time and seeing where things go. He's a pretty great guy. I don't think he'll have too much difficulty finding a home wherever that is.

CH: That was Michael King, a veterinary surgeon at Canada West Veterinary Specialists. He spoke with the CBC's Michelle Gomez yesterday. The RCMP told the CBC last week they are aware of the incident, and are investigating.

[lofi]

Grizzly Hunting Ban

Guest: Barb Joe

CH: It's official: hunters in the Yukon won't be able to kill grizzly bears over an expanded area during the upcoming hunting season. The territory's government recently announced the ban as part of a series of new regulations. And they come after the 2023 death of a grizzly that was affectionately known to locals as "the mayor of Klukshu". Barb Joe is the chief of Champagne and Aishihik First Nations. We reached her in Whitehorse.

NK: Chief, the fact that the bear that was killed was known as The Mayor says a lot. How did it come to be so beloved?

BARB JOE: the residents that have cabins along the creek, Klukshu Creek, they had a relationship with the bear which was very respectful. We take the salmon that we need, you take the salmon that you take, and we have that respectful relationship. So, he was kind of, they knew that he would show up at certain times of year and be there and not disturbing anything. He'd have to harvest his own salmon as well, but harvesting as well as watching over and just kind of having that mayoral role, just protecting the community. And people looked forward to seeing him every year. And they'd watch out for him. And, you know, he'd make his presence, and they'd know he was there. And, you know, he'd keep track and he'd know that they were there too, so they coexist. And he was the one, he was a mature grizzly bear. He kept the nuisance bears, the younger bears away, you know, and kind of the community safety for us with respect to the bear population. And I would hear about, oh yeah, The Mayor showed up, and we see him, and he's here. You know, and he is doing his thing. And by not having that there it seems like there's a bit of grieving if you can say. He's missed in the community.

NK: Have you noticed -- and have people there noticed -- a difference in an impact, you know, a physical impact there since the bear was killed?

BJ: Wolves are starting to come in a bit more. And they're coming in closer to the community, which is not good because any given time we probably have up to 30, 40 people in the community, whether they're harvesting or just enjoying, you know, the spring gatherings or whatever. And so, in that mix there's elders and young children and babies. And so, how do kids play outside safely by having these nuisance bears around or these wolves that are coming into the community? So, that whole structure has to be thought of a bit more and has to a bit on guard from our part to be able to make sure that people know, you know, they have to be careful.

NK: For people who don't live there, and don't have a relationship with grizzly bears, or they're not part of their reality, what will this ban mean for you and others there?

BJ: It's going to assist the community, which is, like it's a smaller traditional fishing village. And I spent a lot of time there in the summers, and with my grandparents. It's a seasonal harvest area, so spring, summer, fall. And it's place where there's a huge gathering of, it was a traditional gathering of salmon, salmon spawning grounds and, as a result, grizzly bear population. And so, the ban will at least allow people to know that there are people situated in this area within the one-kilometre radius around Klukshu, there are people that do practice, you know, their harvesting rights. There's other practices, too, like, soak berries and things like that. And so, the ban would let people know that this is going to be happening and people need to abide by it.

NK: The ban is for the 2025-2026 hunting and fishing season. What is your sense at this stage, Chief, if it might be extended beyond that?

BJ: I'll have to do a double check with the minister to verify that. But my understanding was it would be for a while. And what the council -- our council -- said was we don't want to stop grizzly bear hunting. That's not our intent. Our intent is to make sure that our community is safe from stray bullets, from people you know coming to close to hunt. They didn't want stop grizzly bear hunting because what I understand from council members who have a background in fish and wildlife is that some of these grizzly bears actually eat some of the moose calves. And because we also harvest moose in the fall time, it's critical that the baby moose calves aren't killed off.

NK: Right. When would be a better time when, just so we can understand, you're not against the hunt overall. Is it at certain times and certain locations?

BJ: Yep! And that's what they said. We can't eliminate grizzly bear hunting. That's not our intent. Our intent is to make sure that people know that there is a cabin community within this area. People can't hunt within a certain perimeter.

NK: Chief, I thank you for your time. Thank you.

BJ: Okay. Thank you very much.

CH: Barb Joe is the chief of Champagne and Aishihik First Nations. We reached her in Whitehorse.

The AIH Transcript For April 10, 2025

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