Note: Transcripts may contain errors. If you wish to re-use all, or part of, a transcript, please contact CBC for permission. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. Copyright © CBC 2025

The AIH transcript for April 17, 2025

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: Not getting the green light. Green Party co-leader Elizabeth May says she fought the debate commission's decision to drop her party from the leaders debates. And insists that just because it didn't work doesn't mean the party isn't working.

CH: Building Blocs. Last night's French-language debate put the spotlight on the Bloc Québécois. A former BQ MP says he's certain of strong support within the province -- but what will happen on Election Day is harder to predict.

NK: Through her lens. Photojournalist Fatima Hassouna showed the world the impact of war in Gaza. Yesterday, she was killed in an Israeli airstrike; a filmmaker who profiled her tells us the loss is devastating.

CH: Full circle moment. When an earthquake hit the San Diego Zoo, its resident elephants didn’t panic – they created an “alert circle” to protect their most vulnerable members.

NK: Flight risks, Part 1. An Oxford University building closes for a week after a vandal smashed its glass roof. And the school was shattered to discover the shatterer was none other than a delinquent seagull.

CH: And...flight risks, part 2. All this week's stories about destructive birds reminded us of another menacing ne'er-do-well bird in our archives: none other than Turkules, the rogue New Jersey turkey.

CH: As It Happens, the Thursday Edition. Radio that's not afraid to ruffle some feathers.

[theme]

Part 1: Elizabeth May, Fatima Hassouna Obit, San Diego Earthquake Elephants

Elizabeth May

Guest: Elizabeth May

CH: Once again tonight, the Green Party will be absent from the debate stage. Yesterday morning, before the French-language debate, the Leaders' Debates Commission announced that it was dropping the Green Party. The commission said it was because the party had removed candidates for strategic reasons -- resulting in the Greens not running in enough ridings. To qualify for the debates, parties must meet two out of three requirements: They have to hold at least four per cent national support, have a sitting MP, and run candidates in at least 90 per cent of all ridings. The Green Party says they met those last two requirements, and they've called the move to exclude them "undemocratic". But it still won't be at tonight's English-language debate. Elizabeth May is the co-leader of the Green Party. We reached her in Sidney, British Columbia.

NK: Elizabeth May, we want to make this as clear as possible for our listeners who might be trying to sort this out as well. Did your party not drop candidates? And did your party not meet the threshold to qualify for these debates?

ELIZABETH MAY: We met all the thresholds, we never dropped candidates, it was a misunderstanding on which I think the debates commission was feeling a lot of pressure, newspaper editorials, pundits and so on, and other party leaders saying we shouldn't be there. And I very much as I read it they caved, they had ruled repeatedly that we met every criteria, every criterion. [chuckling] And I know As It Happens listeners also care about good grammar, so I'll correct myself. No, we we met all the criteria. And on top of that, the rules were written in such a way, and I think most people find illogical that they can now persist in saying we didn't have enough candidates. And we have over 240 across country. We had nominated candidate in every riding, but some had a lot of difficulty collecting the signatures in time. But the debates commission had told us that wasn't a problem because we met what they'd asked for, which was nominated candidates, and the difficulties collecting signatures in this election were of the charts from any other election.

NK: So, let me just dig in there because it sounds, the wording is important here. I just want to remind our listeners that on Tuesday, your co-leader, Jonathan Pedneault, told our CBC News colleagues that your party had pulled 15 candidates out of the race in a, quote, strategic decision not to run them in ridings where the party thinks Conservatives will likely win. I know you've taken issue with that wording, strategic decisions. You said it was a misunderstanding. But from what I think I hear you saying is that you were told that as long as they were nominated, that you could be in the debates.

EM: Those are the rules, and we've met all those rules. I don't, you know, there's no question, just to be very clear, we didn't strategically decide to pull candidates. What Jonathan was struggling with was, did candidates pull out themselves? I don't know that. None of the candidates have told me that they pulled out deliberately. We certainly have had candidates, and I've been contacted by many, who say, look, I'm facing awful pressure on social media. And my wife is feeling really threatened by people saying you really should back out. You're just in the way here and you might help a Conservative win. And i'm not speaking of any specific riding. In my case for instance, in Saanich-Gulf Islands, or for Paul Manley in Nanaimo-Ladysmith. It's very clear that either it will be a Green MP or a Conservative MP. And we're actually running as hard as we can. But back to the Leaders' Debate Commission, it was created to create fairness and predictability. And they've just blown it totally.

NK: But on the issue of how many candidates you have, whatever the reasoning, whatever the wording, strategic, not strategic, will you have a full slate of candidates on Election Day?

EM: We're not allowed to because of the short time it took to collect the signatures. We've never had trouble like this ever before where some of our volunteers were being harassed and threatened. Some volunteers were reporting to us, I'm not willing to go back out there because I don't feel safe. Something has changed in the climate and around collecting signatures. We didn't pull any candidates. We made no strategic decision ever to pull candidates. We knew we wanted to give Canadians everywhere the ability to vote for a Green candidate wherever they live.

NK: I know you and your colleagues, Elizabeth May, have worked for a long time to make inroads, and grow the party, and grow your base, and get a higher share of the vote, and get more people elected. But there've also been ebbs and flows and disappointments. And at this point, CBC's poll tracker shows the Green Party is polling at 2.3 per cent. There's the turmoil around the debate, co-leadership, questions about whether that was a good strategy. What, at this point, separates your party from other fringe parties who want to have a voice at these debates and don't?

EM: We're not a fringe party. We're the only party in Canada that's being excluded from the debates that have sitting members of Parliament. So yeah, Max Berenier and the People's Party haven't elected anyone, ever. There are no such things as fringe parties that elect members of Parliament and from different regions. First past the post works well for the Bloc Québécois. That's why the Bloc Québécois was on track until recently to be the official opposition. I love the Boc Québécois MPs that I work with. They're some fine folks. I'm not against them being in the debate. But I do wonder at the fairness in a democracy where every English Canadian viewer and elector will be able to see what Yves-Francois Blanchet believes about issues, but they don't have a Bloc Québécoise candidate on the ballot. In most of Canada, there's a Green Party candidate on the ballot. We are hardly fringe. We are fundamental to the democracy and the workings of Parliament because we set an example for respect, for raising the level of the discourse, for doing our homework, and for evidence-based policies that are not reduced to three-word slogans that rhyme.

NK: We spoke with political strategist Scott Reid yesterday on the show. And he also took issue with the way the commission went about this, you know, that they defended inviting your party onto the debates on Monday and then pulled the plug two days later. But he was also quite critical of the state your party is in right now. He took aim at the co-leadership issue, and just how this whole issue with the debates has played out. And he's concerned about the future of your party. He's not sure where you go from here. What do you say to people who think this is the --

EM: I'm sorry, I'll just say, you know, you've got a very bright guy and a good opinion, but honestly, it's not our fault the debates commission committed that we were going to be in it and then pulled us for no reason.

NK: And that's what, Elizabeth, that's, what we are trying to get at. Are you worried about the state of the party in this moment?

EM: No, I mean, I think I'm worried about the state of information for Canadian voters. I'm going to be honest. I mean, everybody may remember that in 2021, things were really quite grim. I'm very proud of the way the party is now rebuilt, with great candidates coast to coast, to coast. With a really strong, we are a grassroots party that's run by our membership. So, when the members decide to change the constitution and move to co-leadership, that's what decides it. And I'm very proud to be sharing the workload with a brilliant young man, with Jonathan Pedneault, who's devoted his life to work fighting against genocide, being in conflict zones all around the world. He's extraordinary. And I was so looking forward to seeing him on the debate stage. Because at 34 years old, I'm sure he could have out-argued and mopped the floor with the others. Remember when Preston Manning got in the leaders' debate for Reform? It built what is now the Conservative Party of Canada, and it was on the strength of Deb Gray, one MP, winning her seat in a by-election. That got Preston Manning on the debate stage. This Leaders' Debate Commission, its credibility is hanging by a thread, not ours.

NK: Elizabeth May, a pleasure to have you back on the show. Thank you for your time.

EM: Well, thank you, Nil.

CH: Elizabeth May is the co-leader of the Green Party. She’s in Sidney, British Columbia.

[ambient]

Fatima Hassouna Obit

Guest: Sepideh Farsi

CH: Her photos were a window into life in the middle of war -- and Fatima Hassouna refused to look away. The 25-year-old Gazan photo-journalist was reportedly killed in an Israeli air-strike -- in which nine members of her family also died. Her work appeared in news outlets including The Guardian, and she was the subject of the documentary film, Put Your Soul On Your Hand And Walk. That film was just accepted into the Cannes Film Festival parallel program, "ACID". Sepideh Farsi is the director of that film. We reached her in Tours, France.

NK: Sepideh, when was the last time you spoke with Fatima?

SEPIDEH FARSI: The very last time was two days ago. I called her on video to tell her because I wanted to see her face when I would announce her that our film was selected in Cannes. And I asked her to come by to present the film with me. And that was the last time we talked.

NK: How did she react when she heard that the film was going?

SF: She was very happy. She was excited to come. She said I would come under the condition that I go back to Gaza afterwards, so.

NK: She had to go home. She wanted to make sure.

SF: Yes, she want to make sure. And I kept thinking for that 24 hours between our last call and the news of her death that, what if I could get her out and then she couldn't go back? What if she would be separated from her family and something happened to her family? What if, I kept turning this all around in my head because of the responsibility, of course. She had gotten engaged recently with a young man, a Palestinian, a fellow worker of hers. And she was very much in love and very happy about that. I mean, it was a whole lot of new changes in her life, in the situation, Gaza, everything.

NK: How did you find out, Sepideh, that she had been killed in an Israeli airstrike?

SF: I was working on the film, and I was not checking the social media for a couple of hours. And, all of a sudden, one of my colleagues sent a text message to me with a screenshot of her and the news. And I failed to understand first. And I thought it was a mistake. I was sure it was wrong, it couldn't be true. I denied. I started checking frantically, calling her, of course, no answer, sending messages, no answer. More or less, an hour later, I reached to the common friend, the person who had introduced her to me, and he confirmed the news.

NK: I'm sorry for your loss, Sepideh.

SF: Thank you. Thank you. I still can't believe it, really. It's a kind of abstraction when you're far away from a beloved person. Yeah, I still can't believe it.

NK: There are reports that nine members of her family were killed with her in that same spot. You came to know them as well.

SF: Yes, I knew most of them. I didn't know all the nine, but I knew her parents. I knew her sister, who was pregnant. I knew three of her brothers. I am missing, I got six names, I don't know who the other four people are. I don t have the full list.

NK: It was her work as a photojournalist that brought you together. What are some of the images that captured your attention that you found most powerful?

SF: What struck me from the beginning when I saw she started showing her photos to me was a mixture of something very humane and very loving in terms of gaze, of a photographer's approach to people, to children, to elderly people. At the same time, a very methodical and clinically gaze towards the destruction and the state of things in Gaza after these months, just masses of rubble. And so, the contrast was outstanding. I mean, quite astonishing.

NK: You know Fatima. You knew her family. So, when you read or hear that the IDF says it took precautions to avoid harming civilians, and Le Monde says they were targeting a Hamas member. That's according to Le Monde, quoting the IDF. What do you say knowing what you know about them?

SF: I would say that the IDF narrative is pretty repetitive. They have been trying to target Hamas members ever since October 8th, and trying not to hurt civilians. And we've seen during these past 18 months how many civilians were killed. And if they are taking precautions not to hurt civilians, I would say they're very lousy on doing that because there's so many children, and women, and elderly people who are being killed who are clearly not members of Hamas that I don't know what kind of precautions they take. For sure, in families like Fatima's -- Hassouna family -- I mean, apart from the 13 members whom she had lost, amongst which at least half of them were kids, in her own brothers and sisters, her youngest brother was 10. Yazan was 10, Muhammad was 15, Muhammad 20, Aya, her sister, was 23, she was six months pregnant, she's a painter, Fatima just turned 25. I don't think any of these people were Hamas members. I don't know who was there. Not her mother and not her father. I don't think so. I mean, her father was a taxi driver who had retired because he couldn't drive anymore. Her mother was a housewife. Who would have been that member of Hamas there? I don’t know. It’s for IDF to explain.

NK: You've also described Fatima as fragile, but also full of light. What do you want our listeners, but also those who have an opportunity to see your film in Cannes and perhaps after, what do you want them to leave that theatre knowing?

SF: That she was a solar person, full of light, indeed. Anytime I think of her, and her smile, and her eyes, I have a very bright memory coming to me. And full of curiosity, very open. We often discussed our political, and religious, and cultural points of views. And we quite often disagreed also, but she was full of energy and openness to learn, you know? And every time she learned about something that she didn't know, she was curious. And I would send her things and then she would also exchange. And I think she's like a flower -- a bud -- that was just about to open and she was just cut before it happened. [deep sigh]

NK: Sepideh, I appreciate your time. I know this wasn't easy for you, so thank you for sharing your memories.

SF: I'm glad that we did so. And I hope I have rendered some of what she gave me through my words. And I will try to do so further on.

NK: Thank you.

SF: Thank you.

CH: Sepideh Farsi is the director of the documentary, Put Your Soul On Your Hand And Walk. We reached her in Tours, France.

[R&B]

San Diego Earthquake Elephants

Guest: Mindy Albright

CH: Headlines about earthquakes tend, understandably, to be heavy on the damage caused. But coverage of a 5.2-magnitude earthquake in Southern California this week was heavy in a very different way. Because its protagonists were a bunch of elephants. Happily, all the animals in question are very much alive. And footage captured by their keepers at the San Diego Zoo Safari Park reveals that they did not hesitate to spring into action to protect their own. Mindy Albright is the curator of mammals at the San Diego Zoo Safari Park. We reached her in Escondido, California.

NK: Mindy, how are the elephants doing today?

MINDY ALBRIGHT: They're wonderful! Everything's back to normal after that earthquake.

NK: Back to business as usual. When the ground did start shaking though, and I've had a chance to see this video, it's lovely to watch it all unfold. You could easily watch it a few times on loop, but tell our listeners who haven't seen it what happens.

MA: Yeah, the elephants were in their habitat foraging for food, and when the ground started to shake, you could see they sort of jumped up and looked around surveying their habitat to try to see where this information was coming from, and is this dangerous? And then, they all ran towards the middle of the habitat, and they were surveying the area around them, and then they gathered into an alert circle, and the youngest calf moves into the middle of that alert circle while the rest of the herd were pointing outwardly from that circle so that they could try to gather information to see what was this, does it pose any more danger, and what do we need to do next?

NK: And they're protecting the youngest among them, which was lovely to see. It has a name, obviously, as you said, an alert circle. What is it like for you, someone who does this work, to see that unfold?

MA: You know, for the wildlife care specialists that spend their time caring for the herd of elephants here at the Safari Park, it's wonderful to see them respond appropriately to the environmental cues that they're given. While we do live in Southern California and have earthquakes, it is not a common occurrence. And so, for them to be engaged in their environment and pick up on the signals that they're getting and respond appropriately, it's remarkable to see. And it's remarkable to see that those family bonds are so strong that they come together immediately to care for one another.

NK: It was also interesting to watch the younger ones, one of them trying to step up and be tough in those moments.

MA: So, Zuli and Makiya are the youngest in the herd, at seven years old. And Kosi is 18, and it was interesting to see in this video that Zuli, rather than being in the middle, he stood next to his mom, pointing outwardly in the circle. And Kosi next to him kept reaching her trunk back and sort of touching him, almost like she's checking on him, maybe wondering how come you're on the outside of the circle and not on the inside? [NK chuckles] But as the males grow up, naturally, they evolve and move on away from their family unit. So, the females spend their life with their mom. They'll live with their herd. The males grow up and they move on to bachelor herds and live a life that's outside of their family unit.

NK: And he got back in line after that.

MA: Yeah, I mean, when they went to walk away, he was still, like, touching his mom. So, [NK chuckles] he's not fully confident as an adult bull. He's still a youngster, but these are just moments for him to start demonstrating his evolution of maturity within the family group.

NK: How many times have you and your team watched this footage now? I mentioned I've watched it on loop several times, but.

MA: Yeah, we watched it back quite a bit because you'll see little nuances. Who flared their ears first? Which direction they each chose to run in that moment? And Kosi, the 18-year-old, sort of ran into a little bit of a different direction. The adults all kind of ran in a different direction. You know, they're taking this environmental cue. For humans, when that earthquake happened, it was quite long. Long enough for you to say, Is that an earthquake? Oh, it is an earthquake. Uh-oh, we better get out of the building because it is an earthquake. It was a long earthquake in duration, but we know what that means for an elephant. They don't know what means. They're getting a stimulus from their environment that's abnormal. And so, they need to make a decision on how they respond. And they responded appropriately, and you could see them searching their environment to try to get more information so that they can determine is this really a threat, or is this just something that startled us? And you can see them, at one point, Zuli's got his trunk in the air and he's smelling, like, can he smell anything? Can he smell the danger coming? The elephants are, they've got their ears out, they're listening. They also have the ability to feel sound vibrations through their feet that travel several miles. So, they're really just sort of, in that moment, frozen, trying to gather as much information as they can so they can decide what's our next move. And that's a survival strategy that all elephants have.

NK: Mindy, glad to speak with you. Thank you.

MA: Thank you.

CH: Mindy Albright is the curator of mammals at the San Diego Zoo Safari Park. We reached her in Escondido.

[standup bass!]

DT: The idea at the end is if Quebec is independent, it should have some kind of very close partnership, association, economic, even political with Canada. So, that's still where the Bloc stands, you know?

NK: But do you think the calculation might change for some, even if they traditionally, you know, support the BQ, do you think that they may, you know, lean towards another party because of the threats that we're seeing from the Trump administration?

DT: Yes, and that could show on April 28th that maybe they'll want to have a Liberal leader, but it might be very temporary. Because Mark Carney as a Liberal leader might just do what all the Liberal leaders have done before him, and not in many respects accept that Quebec should have even more autonomy within Canada, adopt policies that will be very inconsistent with what Quebecers want, like the Trudeau's and everyone that has led the Liberal Party since the 1960s.

NK: Ultimately, Daniel, what do you think is the best-case scenario late on April 28, or the morning after? What is the best-case scenario for the Bloc Québécois?

DT: To hold the balance of power in Ottawa. And when you look at the polls, what you'd really hope now for the Bloc is that it holds seats. If it wins seats, it's probably because Blanchet did very good at that debate yesterday, and people think they still could -- and should -- elect more members of the Bloc and make sure that Carney knows that someone is there to make sure he does the right thing, and doesn't only do what the liberal party wants him to do.

NK: Daniel, a pleasure speaking with you, thank you.

DT: Thank you.

CH: Daniel Turp is a former Bloc Québécois MP and a professor of constitutional law at the Université de Montréal. He’s in Geneva.

[glassy guitar]

Cancer Volunteer

Guest: Doug Ruch

CH: This past January, Doug Ruch learned his prostate cancer had become terminal. And at first, the 55-year-old Texan mourned. But then, he turned his focus to the 12 to 18 months doctors say he has left -- and decided to spend that time giving back. So he started a GoFundMe, asking people to contribute to support his dying wish to volunteer in every single U.S. state. Doug Ruch has been on the road for about a month now -- and that's where we reached him.

NK: Doug, where are we reaching you today?

DOUG RUCH: I am in Salt Lake City, Utah, which is my 12th state and 14th stop on my tour.

NK: In what kind of a time span have you been able to cross that many?

DR: It started on March 17th in Dallas, Texas and so I've been through 12 states in just a month.

NK: So, you're making great time and making lots of friends along the way, I'm sure.

DR: I'm trying to, yes. Absolutely, it's gotten really crazy. This week, it's gotten nuts.

NK: I bet. As more people hear about your story and what you're trying to do, I bet.

DR: Right.

NK: How does that feel a month in?

DR: Oh, it feels so good. I'm getting such amazing feedback. You know, I'm a team of one. I'm getting a lot of emails from, you know, media requests and stuff. And they're like, hey, you know, can you pass this on to Doug, or can you see if Doug will, no, Doug is it. You know, Doug responds to all the emails, Doug built the website, Doug updates the website, Doug plans the stops, Doug plans the volunteer missions. It's Doug, it's me. So, I've been getting dozens of messages a day, and I'm trying to get to all of them, but it's becoming tough. So, if I miss one or two, please forgive me. I'm trying.

NK: You've said that there's something clarifying about being told that you have an illness that is terminal. What did it clarify for you?

DR: Well, it made me reflect on my life, you know? My childhood trauma and anxiety caused me to overcorrect in my 20s, 30s, and 40s, and go after the brass ring, and work as hard as I could. And so, it made me reflect on the things I missed out on. And a lot of it was family related. I don't talk about my family because I want to protect their privacy and leave them out of this. But getting that news made me think I should have spent more time with them. I should've, I would have been okay with making less money. I can't go back and change that, you know? All I can do is move forward with whatever time I have left. And I spent so much time, you know, working and trying to make a lot of money that I didn't do a lot of volunteering. I didn’t help a lot of fellow people. And, you know, that was one of my biggest regrets. So, that's how I ended up, that's how I ended up coming to this volunteer mission.

NK: It would be, different people handle this kind of information and this kind of reality differently. Obviously, you could turn inward, but also given your anxiety and the other things you talked about, I mean, was it, you're so out there now. You're meeting new people every single day and new adventures, so how do you balance all of that?

DR: It's actually, you know, it's actually become calming. On days where I have volunteer missions, I feel really good and I'm energized. The happy hormones are flowing. On days where I have long drive like I did yesterday from Boise to Salt Lake City, you know about a five-and-a half-hour drive, you those aren't as fun. Those are mentally taxing just because I do feel the anxiety when I'm driving from place to place. I've driven over 5,000 miles.

NK: Is there one state, you don't want to pick favourites, I'm sure, but if you had to, is there one that you've never been to you're really excited to experience?

DR: I mean, you know, I've never been to Alaska, so if I had to say, and of course, I can't drive that one. I'm gonna fly because it would be just way too long of a drive

NK: What kinds of volunteering gigs have you taken on?

DR: OK, so I've done soup kitchens, I've done food pantries, food banks. I did a seniors' centre in Lake Oswego, Oregon. I'm doing a youth centre tomorrow here in Salt Lake City, which I'm so excited about. This is the one I'm most excited about. You know, when I set it up, I asked the folks at Volunteers of America, you now, what would be a treat for them? You know, they do get, you, know, cereal a lot of times, they'll get eggs or whatever, but you know I said, how about breakfast tacos? Who doesn't love a breakfast taco or a breakfast burrito? So, I reached out to a local restaurant here, worked out a deal with them to get 100 breakfast burritos and we're going to treat these kids to an amazing Friday breakfast.

NK: Obviously, you're giving back to all the people you're meeting as you as you crisscross your country. People can join you as a volunteer, as you said, they can follow along on your website or donate, as you've talked about. But beyond that, as people listen to the story wherever they're listening from, what do you hope they take away from our conversation and what you're doing?

DR: Well, I, you know, I've been thinking a lot about the bigger picture this week as more and more people have supported my mission. It made me think that I was thinking, you now, I wasn't thinking big enough. So, myself and a few friends, over the next few weeks to a month, we are going to be turning Dying to Serve into a 501c3 nonprofit and the mission will be to inspire and educate people all over the country, if not the world, to, you know, micro-volunteer in their communities. And what I mean by that is the biggest thing that, you know, I'm finding in a lot of these organizations -- wonderful organizations -- that I'm volunteering for is they don't have enough volunteers to do the work that is needed. And that's because most people think, oh, if I volunteer, it's going to be a 10-hour-a-week commitment, or a 20-hour-a-week commitment. I don't have that kind of time. But in actuality, if you volunteer four hours, three, four hours a month in your local community for some of these wonderful organizations, you know, whose sole purpose is to help people in need, then you're making a huge difference. If enough people volunteer, you know, in a micro fashion, three, four hours a month, it will make a world of difference. So, that's what Dying to Serve non-profit is going to, you know, is going to work on getting that message out there.

NK: Doug, I appreciate this. Thank you so much. Please take care.

DR: Okay. Thank you.

CH: Doug Ruch is on a mission to volunteer in all 50 states. We reached him in Salt Lake City, Utah.

[folk]

Encore: Turkules

CH: Every week, As It Happens tries to cover a wide range of stories. But sometimes, a common theme emerges. Earlier in the show we told you that Oxford University was forced to close one of its buildings for repairs, after a seagull repeatedly dropped a stone on its roof, damaging a glass panel. A story that would have hit listeners in Rockport, Massachusetts hard -- since, as we told you earlier this week, they're also under siege. Car owners in particular. For weeks now, they've been targeted by a merciless vandal with a particular penchant for destroying side mirrors. And when the Boston Globe's Billy Baker went to investigate, he found that the perpetrator had spared next to no one.

SOUNDCLIP

BILLY BAKER: Every house I knocked on, you know, the kind of most awkward, you know, knock you can make, hi, I'm a Boston Globe reporter. Have you been attacked by a woodpecker?

NK: [chuckling] I mean, as door knocks go, that's not the worst one that you've probably ever had to do.

BB: But, I mean, in every case, they were like, thank God you're here, yes! And then, they'd walk me to their backyard and show me both side mirrors on their car had been broken by this rogue woodpecker. And that continued for hours.

CH: Yeah, the vandal in question is, in fact, a woodpecker. At least one -- which has been destroying side mirrors and defecating, mockingly, on the cars they're attached to. Nevertheless, as Mr. Baker told us, many residents seem not to want the woodpecker's reign of terror to end. They've become fond of it. Which is a situation people in West Orange, New Jersey will be able to relate to. In 2023, residents there were tormented by a rogue turkey that routinely stopped traffic, chased pedestrians and evaded capture. They named it "Turkules". He was a menace. And yet, when officials finally did manage to relocate Turkules, West Orange resident Gia Garcia told Nil she actually missed him. Here's that conversation, From Our Archives.

SOUNDCLIP

NK: Gia, what do you miss most about Turkules?

GIA GARCIA: Oh, I miss his precocious behaviour, for sure. [NK chuckles] And just his spunk. He's very headstrong. That is for sure. He, I like to think of him as a two or three-year-old toddler in a bird body. [NK chuckles] That's how headstrong he is, yes.

NK: So, precocious and headstrong. But others would say a nuisance. He pecked at car tires, stood in the middle of the road. Long, long traffic jams have been attributed to Turkules. Why do you love him anyway?

GG: I keep asking for those names. I really do. [NK chuckles] Because I don't see why. I mean, at the beginning, when, at the beginninh, yes. Stuck in traffic is a bit annoying. But once you've found out why, you got, you grew to love him. Like, everybody wanted to be stuck in traffic just to get a sighting of Turkules. That's how crazy he is.

NK: Why, maybe it doesn't come across in photographs. What is, what is the charm that Turkules wields?

GG: Well, I mean, picture this. Picture seeing a turkey.

NK: Um-hmm.

GG: He's, like, magnificent. Like, he is huge. And there's a trank dart sticking out of him, and he's just walking around with it. [NK chuckles] Like, walking around like, like the Terminator, like nothing had happened at all. And there's there's dart hanging out of him. And we're like, is he okay? So, your first thought is like, is he okay? Who did this? And then, you find out, okay, well, they've been trying to move him, and he refuses to move. [laughing]

NK: I'm not going anywhere. So, officials had, had tranquillized him or tried to. And it didn't work, as you say.

GG: And it didn't work.

NK: And it didn't work. But this time, they did relocate Turkules. So, how are you feeling about that?

GG: Well, the news is, is breaking slowly throughout town -- the town -- right now that he's been relocated to Cranbury, New York. And let's just say we've all been trying to map out how far it is from our homes to go visit him. It's like. [laughing]

NK: It's 85 miles, or just under 140km.

GG: Oh, well, yeah, it's a road trip. I think we're all going to caravan because it's the talk in town. Like, we need to, we need to know he's okay. We know he's okay, but we kind of wish that he was relocated closer to home. But I get it. They tried, and he found his way back. So, I think they're trying to give him distance, but we just feel like he's going to find his way back to that spot where he loves. And it's in West Orange. So yeah.

NK: What's your theory on why he loves that spot so much?

GG: You know what? We really don't have one other than, like, he's reclaiming the land. [both laugh] He's just, like, we have no idea. He just did not want to leave this one spot. And he was very protective of it. So, we didn't question it. It was just like, protect this bird at all costs. Like, you know, he's for president 2024 at this point. So yeah. [both laugh]

NK: That's where things are at there.

GG: Yeah.

NK: When did he first enter your life? When did you first meet Turkules?

GG: Oh, I, well, I first heard of him, like maybe two months ago. And then, I had the pleasure of physically seeing him for myself three weeks ago. Like you, you hear about this bird for, like, a month, and you, everyone wants to catch a sighting of him. And then, you see him, and you're like, oh my God, he's beautiful.

NK: Does Turkules like all the all the attention when people are staring at him?

GG: I believe he did. I, again, he was pecking attires. Yeah, because maybe they were rude to him. Who knows? I don't know. But [chuckling] I know in traffic, he would literally walk up to your window, and you could roll it down, and you'd say, Turkules, like, Sweetie, we have to get home. Like, you got to get out of the road. And he would, like, stare at you and just be like, I know, but I'm walking the road right now, so can you just wait? You know, like there's a conversation had, beeing had when he's there that you, I mean, he would like come up to your window and just, like, stare at you and just kept going down the line of cars, you know? So, yeah, he's, he's a special bird. He definitely is a special bird.

NK: But he also, I understand, there was a hometown hero event. How did he bring everybody together?

GG: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, the Hometown Hero Day came about because obviously it's Thanksgiving today, and we were so in love with him. So, we were like, let's band together. And I kind of, like, came up with the idea because I'm a small business owner in town. And I was like, what if we get, like, a bunch of businesses together. And we make the Saturday before Thanksgiving be Hometown Hero Day? And it's all about Turkules. And a portion of our sales go towards the Wildlife Society that, you know, came out to check on him. And I got a bunch of, like, my friends in the neighbourhood of businesses to band together, and we'd give, like, specials and offers, and I made like a whole line merch line of t-shirts, and we had ornaments made. And it was just amazing because people from all over -- not only West Orange -- heard about it, and they came and they purchased t-shirts and ornaments for their Christmas tree, etc., and, you know, supported other small businesses in the efforts of, like, being part of, like, saving this bird and giving back in some form. And it was an amazing day for West Orange and everyone was excited. And today, I believe a lot of people are wearing their t-shirts today.

NK: Yeah, but what's on their plates? That's on their t-shirts. Well, what's on their --

GG: I don't, listen, okay? I don't cross those lines. [NK chuckles] But, but, okay, so. [chuckling]

NK: So what, are you serving turkey today?

GG: I plead the Fifth. [laughing]

NK: I feel like people think Turkules is a separate category.

GG: Yes. We would not eat Turkules. Maybe the cousins, but not Turkules, you know? Like, not him. [chuckling]

NK: I feel like Turkules would have a few things to say about this. What do you think he's up to in his new home? Other than plotting his return?

GG: You know, I think he's sitting there, feathers interlocked and is just plotting his return. I want to, I don't believe he's happy in Cranberry on Thanksgiving Day. Cranberry New Jersey, I don't know who's sick, twisted humour that was putting him in Cranberry, New Jersey but, but yeah. [both chuckle] S, but I do hope that he's comfortable. He has all the land to roam on. And he meets new friends, and he's happy. So, yeah.

NK: Gia, thank you for your time. Happy Thanksgiving.

GG: You as well. Thank you so much. Have a great day.

NK: You too.

GG: Okay. Bye-bye.

CH: From Our Archives, West Orange, New Jersey resident Gia Garcia speaking with Nil about Turkules, the destructive wild turkey, in November, 2023.

[disco]

Part 3: Encore: Bethann Hardison

Soccer League Star

SOUNDCLIP

ANNOUNCER: Quinn!!! [cheers] Rise up, Vancouver. Quinn has the first goal.

CH: Vancouver Rise midfielder Quinn, scoring on a penalty kick at the inaugural Northern Soccer League match against the Calgary Wild yesterday, in front of 14,000 fans at B.C. Place in Vancouver. And this weekend, AFC Toronto will take on the Montreal Roses at BMO field in Toronto. Sarah Rollins plays defence on AFC Toronto. She told Metro Morning what it means for her to play for, and represent, her hometown.

SOUNDCLIP

SARAH ROLLINS: Growing up in Toronto, this city kind of made me who I am. And, like, the NSL's, like, establishment is not just, like, a milestone for sports, but it's also, like, a cultural one for Canada. Like, allowing, like, significant process for women's professional sports. And, like, allowing little girls to be able to look up right in their hometowns and, like, to play the sport that they love and follow their passion is just incredible.

JILL DEMPSY: It's important to note you could have played professional soccer in the United States, or in Europe, but to be able to do it in Toronto, what does that feel like?

SR: It just feels like such a great sense of pride. So now, to, like, step on the field and represent it, like, it just means everything to me to have, like, my family and friends there as well. It's just such a good feeling.

JD: They've got tickets?

SR: Oh yeah, season tickets. [both laugh]

JD: So, who's going to be there on Saturday to watch you play?

SR: Probably 100 people, I can tell you. [JD laughs] All my friends, all their families, everybody.

JD: You played pro soccer here with the North Toronto Nitros. And on Saturday, you're going to be joining two of your Nitro teammates. Tell me what those conversations have been like ahead of the game, and when you found out that the three of you were actually going to signed and playing together.

SR: Honestly, the conversations were pretty surreal at first because it didn't seem like a thing. Like, last summer, like, we were talking to each other, like, being, like, oh, is this an opportunity that you want to grab? And we were kind of, like, all hesitating. And then, like, it just, like, didn't feel real. But then like when we found out, we were just, like ,so excited for each other to, like, even just pursue this dream in general. But for us to, like, have a connection with both football, our city, and just, like, playing together, like, being friends, like, it was just like really awesome.

JD: You know what it's like to play in a big game. You're coming off back-to-back university sports championships with UBC. Will Saturday be different? Will it be louder?

SR: I mean, it will definitely be different. Like, this is just a whole 'nother level. It will very much be louder at BMO Field. Like, hopefully we got a full stadium. But yeah, it's definitely gonna be a lot, a lot more, like, excitement and nerves, but it's all just good things that I'm really excited for.

CH: That was Sarah Rollins, who plays defence on AFC Toronto, talking to guest host Jill Dempsey on Metro Morning today. The match between AFC Toronto and the Montreal Roses will kick off at 4:00 pm EST on Saturday at BMO Field in Toronto.

[hip-hop]

Encore: Bethann Hardison

NK: Bethann Hardison, a lot of words are used to describe you in this film, model, mother, activist, samurai, Batman, mad scientist, Statue of Liberty. I would add diplomat based on what I saw in that film and changemaker as well to that list. Was that the kind of life you dreamed for yourself as a child?

BETHANN HARDISON: Oh no, no, no.

NK: [chuckle] To be those things to so many people.

BH: [chuckling] No, I'm, I never had dreams. You know, you wake up, you get up, and you just, you sort of step into the garden and just figure out what do you have to prune?

NK: You co-directed this film. And so, when you're watching this footage back and you're hearing people describe you in that way, it was Iman, I think, who, who compared you to the Statue of Liberty to her.

BH: I was her Statue of Liberty, yeah.

NK: Yeah. What was it like to hear these people you've helped in their careers and their lives talk about you that way?

BH: It's pretty [laughing] it’s pretty accurate. Well --

NK: They’re right. You're saying they're right. [chuckling]

BH: Yeah, yeah, they're, they're right. I mean, in her case, I understood how she used the analogy. She, that was the first person that sort of welcomed. I was her Statue of Liberty. So that made sense. And it's written in her book that she did many years ago. So I've heard it said before. So when she expressed it on film, that was another thing. I understand it. As you get older and older and you start watching, you know, like watching the film has taught me a lot about me. It's very interesting because, you know, you never saw yourself, and you never thought you even had a story. But when you see this all put together, then you say, okay, now I understand exactly what everybody's been, you know, pushing me along the way for. And then, I become that person that learned, finally, to get out of my own way.

NK: Hmm. Initially, as I understand it, Invisible Beauty was supposed to be a film about the industry, not about you, your life, and your activism.

BH: Yes.

NK: So, at what point did you, did you accept that it needed to be about your life and achievements?

BH: Yeah. It was all because of the fact that along the way, people, whether they knew me well or not, they just would say, oh yeah, yeah, that's nice you're doing that film. But you know what? Someone needs to do a film on you. And I would just boo-hoo that because I never wanted to be in front of the camera anyways. So, I didn't see any need to tell any story about me. But at some point, I really realized that it would be easier to make the story about me because we were trying to with, it was a former director, we were trying to make sense of how we could tell that story because could you get the cooperation from the industry? Will people come on and speak about the things that I was witnessing? And you wouldn't necessarily get the other side. And hearing that voice, well, somebody should do a film on you. Then at one point, I just relinquished and said, okay, the film should be about me.

NK: Well, I'm glad that you did. [BH chuckles] And I think people who see it are glad that you did that as well. Just to go back to something you said earlier, you didn't think about being a model, you didn't dream about it. How did that happen?

BH: Willi Smith, he was the one who asked me. I was a child tap dancer, and I was kind of successful at that, you know? And I think just the idea that there is things that you can still do on stage, you know? [chuckle] And Willi Smith asked me to be his, I had a full-time job at a time, when I told Sylvia and Ruth that he had asked me to model, they were so excited. They just thought everything that anybody would ask me to do in that vein.

NK: And just for our listeners, that's African-American designer Willi Smith that you're talking about. And Ruth Manchester and Sylvia Courtney were women you worked with in the Garment District when you were starting out.

BH: Yes. So that's how I really just got a little bit into that lane. And Willi basically was someone who was then wanting me to do print, and I was not a print girl, but he introduced me to Bruce. And Bruce was just starting --

NK: Bruce Weber.

BH: Yes, Bruce Weber. Thank you.

NK: Famous photographer.

BH: Yes. And he basically was just starting to be a photographer. So, this, this kind of, like, connection, you know, was very nice in that way. But I had no interest in being a model that way. I never thought I was print-worthy. Runway I could do because, you know, [NK chuckles] give me a give me a stage, I can dance on it, you know?

NK: I think that's, that's so fascinating. Well, thank goodness that all of those pieces and connections were made. I know you said you didn't want to be in front of the camera and you didn't have dreams, but you end up being part of the initial wave of change in the 1970s and ‘80s, bringing more representation to the catwalk. But you talk about the Battle of Versailles being a key moment. This was a 1973 fashion show fundraiser at the Palace of Versailles. French designers versus American designers. What were you thinking as you were heading there?

BH: Oh see, this was so interesting. A lot of people now that they know about Versailles, they look at us like, wow, what an achievement.

NK: Yeah.

BH: But for us, we were just happy to be selected as a model to go. [chuckling] And you had to have three of the, three out of the five designers that were going to select any model so she can be able to be part of the campaign. And so, going there was just basically, we were just stressing for the fact that the French media began to say that it was ridiculous that we would have even come there to compete on a show. It wasn't even supposed to be a competition. It was supposed to be just a benefit. But then, the French press took it on and made it a competitive thing. The natural thing, for this to have girls of colour even to be part of it was because there was a lot of girls of colour working back then. I mean, people like to think it never happened until we pushed past go and until it happened in the, in the 2000s. But truth be told, it was already there existing. But that was a time when there were runway models. And the runway model got sort of like replaced by the print girl. And so, that was one time a division, which was just the runway model that really took care of the industry of fashion designers. And then, the print girl was just editorial and do advertising and catalogue. And neither of the two would ever meet per se. But Calvin Klein came along and he decided to take the print girl and put her on the runway. And that began to eliminate this, this other division. So, we as runway girls and girls who work with designers were just happy to be able to be going. But the fact that we were there helped to change the vision of what the French designers also saw.

NK: So, what did you and the other models bring to the runway that brought people to their feet in the end? And there was no doubt who, if, if there was going to be a competition, who won in the end?

BH: What we actually brought was the fact that we existed. That was number one. And it wasn’t, it wasn't just one. It wasn't just two. You know, it was a numerous amount of girls. So, if you say 10, that's a lot. Just you see them sprinkled out through, through the campaign of girls. So what we also brought was the fact that we moved in a certain way. We, we, we were allowed to express ourselves. We're usually back then, especially in the European side, the model was very, very rigid. She just showed the clothes in a very different, different style. We had music, which of course, they didn't have. They just basically went to show. And we used to have that too. But in New York, things were changing. And we had young designers like Stephen Burrows coming along. And, you know, he, he brought music to his shows. So, everything started to change for the designers in America. So, what we, when we go to, you know, to Versailles, you know, we brought the girls. And even the white girls, the Brown girls, the Asian girls, everybody moved. They moved to the music. And there was music. So things were so different. And that was a surprise. And we didn't have any sets because our set designer who was, who was Joe Eula at the time, he didn't realize they were talking centimetres. And so, [NK chuckles] the sets didn't, they didn't work. So, we had nothing on the stage but just the girls, the music, and the clothes.

NK: The power of that moment.

BH: That stood out.

BH: Yeah, it's interesting in that sense. You know, it does take some revving up. You know, It's like, all right, the battery's been, you know, it’s like a car, you know, It hasn't been used for a while. The battery needs to, you know, it's an old car, so the battery needs to be charged. And you have to sort of get your energy up and forth because it's a bit of a battle. You know, you have to, you know, you have to intellectually address the situation that you educate and, at the end of the day, you succeed. That everyone gets it. That's not an easy thing to do, especially. But the good news is that we were talking about something that I knew was easy to do because of the fact that I believed that the designers, whether it be national or international, would never want to think of themselves as racist. That I really believed where others who are young even now, think that no one cares. I always believed that they cared. So, for me, I had to just get the energy to come back and sort of, like, address the situation. Because then you, once you start it, you have to really, you want to win. You need to succeed at it. You need to, to make a difference and to help them to make a difference. And that was the glory of it because it actually did do it.

NK: When you, when you're in the U.S., there's this fascinating footage that I'd never seen before. You know, you have a roomful of agents, editors, models. Do you think the folks in the room were ready to hear what you were saying? Because it's --

BH: Yeah.

NK: It's quite a lively conversation.

BH: Yeah. You know, because of the fact that, you know, you call people together. And it's me, you recognize that, you know, I'm someone who grew up in the Garment District. I'm not a fashion person, whatever that word is, that everybody applies to everything even if you just sew a button on the shirt, now you're a fashion person. [NK chuckles] But the fact of it is, is that I grew up in a garment business and I'm older than everyone, pretty much, pretty much in the room. [chuckling] No matter what I look like, equal to their age, I am someone who had a certain experience. If you come out of the ‘60s, ‘70s and ‘80s, I'm talking to people now in the room I'm talking to is this is now 2000. So even though we didn't have all that angst back in the ‘60s and ‘70s, we just, you know, walked the walk and talked the talk and everything was okey dokey. But then at this point, you know, you see the industry changing. And so, you, you think that they are willing to sit and listen because no one's pulled together a town hall meeting like that. No one's ever pulled the press. But people came because of its interest. And, you know, a lot of people also knew what the subject was. So they were prepared to sit and listen, to hear what someone has to say about it.

NK: So you see that things start to change, but then they start slipping, yet again. You notice that Black models are again being excluded from the runways. So this time, you decide to name names. And you publish an open letter calling out fashion houses. What was the reaction to that?

BH: Immediate. [both chuckle] Immediate success. I mean, immediate, I should say immediate recognition. That's what I would say. Success maybe in one, two, three, four seasons, maybe. But still, more. There was immediate reaction. And that was great because I believed. Even though they may be new cowpokes, I still believe that they still, that’s an expression, but even though they were new kids on the block, so to speak, I still believed that they would never want to be thought of in that way, and they needed to be shown a different way. So, to see that someone like Phoebe Philo and Celine had never used the girl, I just knew Phoebe Philo was a cool English girl. I knew she was because I knew people who knew her. But once that was written, her name was on that list, the company name was on the list, right away, immediately she put a girl of colour with an afro on her advertise, a beautiful girl, too. Everyone made changes immediately, you know, Mutual Prada, right away for Prada, change. You know, Armani opened show with a girl of colour -- clothes show will a girl of colour. You know, Jill Sander, same thing. It is immediate, you know, nationally and internationally. And it hit the international market faster because I did it right at the close of the, the New York market. But I, you know, I knew it would come around, you know? So, I just had faith. But it took a lot of belief and strength.

NK: When you see young stars, Zendaya, for example, who's in the film briefly, or Yara Shahidi, securing major fashion campaigns, multiple campaigns and some in, for some of them, or designer-activists such as Aurora James, do you feel that it is different this time? That it is a longer lasting change that you've, you've built up to now?

BH: Well, you know, I always say something different. You know, when someone becomes a celebrity, it's a little different than being a model. So I, you know, I try, look, I was at some given point, you’re just happy that the world is beginning to be educated. Their eye is being educated, their mind is being educated, that they could sort of see someone of colour in something that would be a product that they would think was really meant for them. And they could sort of, like, all get along. They could sort of see it being okay. That's the most important thing. It's a visual thing. So, if it's us and they who is sort of popular, they have mad following. So does, you know, Yara. They have that. So, of course, it's easier. It wouldn't be as easy maybe for a model. But now models are getting it. So, it's, it's really great that that's happening. It's consistent. Do I oftentimes wonder, well, do I need to keep my foot still on the clutch? I do a little bit, but lightly. I think that we're on to something and it's going well. I just don't know if they'll ever be a thing where it will always go right back. Because this happened where it falls all the way back. I don't think so this time.

NK: You are listening to As It happens. And my guest is Bethann Hardison. She is the subject and co-director of a documentary called Invisible Beauty. There are really honest and vulnerable moments throughout this film. You know, you have a son who is a cultural touchstone for a lot of people as well, in a different way. The actor, Kadeem Hardison, many of us came to know him as Dwayne Wayne in A Different World, a really popular show. Your relationship is part of the documentary in really subtle but powerful ways, and it's clear that sacrifices were made to live the life you've lived and do the work you do. So, I wonder what you want people to take away from what you reveal in those moments?

BH: You know, what I was so happy about was to see his interview.

NK: Yeah?

BH: Because I was, the good news of what I chose to do as someone who was helping to build this film for Frederic, who is a wonderful filmmaker in general because of the films he's done before. I'm proud that he wanted me to co-direct this with him. So, for me, it was something that I was clear about, that no matter who I was to put to the list to be interviewed, to share anything about me in this film, I wouldn't want to be there for any of the interviews. So, I didn't, I didn't, I was not present for any interview. So once I saw the footage, and Kadeem’s interview was really good because he was relaxed and he just told a story. And the fact that he could honour up to the fact that he needs to get it together to not do those things where he just disappears. For me, it was honest. You know, when you look at it, then you say, wow, yeah, you know, I guess you shared. [laughing] But Frederic was just always around with the camera. [both chuckling]

NK: Well, those are the best documentaries. You have, you have to share. Otherwise, it's just, you know?

BH: Yeah. Otherwise, it's just make believe. You're absolutely right. It’s too controlled and it comes off like that. But in this case, you know, he was there. And Kadeem hasn't seen the film yet. He's going to see it, and my granddaughter as well, and a few people in Los Angeles in a little small film festival that's there. And we will be travelling elsewhere to other festivals, so we won't be able to attend. But it's going to be interesting for him to see it. You know, he was saying, the director was telling me, he was hoping that certain things he talked about wasn't in there, but it's okay. Whatever he talked about will be fine, you know?

NK: It's still --

BH: It's good.

NK: Yeah, it's still, it's still very honest and touching.

BH: Yes.

NK: There's a point where you're sorting, earlier on in the film, you're sorting through your archive and you talk about at a certain time in one's life, the rest of your life should, should be light or feel light.

BH: Yeah.

NK: Do you, do you feel that lightness now? Has this film helped you achieve that?

BH: Yeah, I think so. I think what this film has done for me, really, is to help me to, to understand my story. To see it is one thing. To, to screen it and to have a Q&A and listen to what people say. And we, we’ve screened to high school students in Utah. And it was amazing that screening.

NK: Wow.

BH: So, to hear those kids scream and cheer, and the standing ovation that we got, and the standing ovation we got when we left. But the questions that between, I don’t high school students are going to get this, you know? [NK chuckles] It's not a fashion film, number one. It is a film that’s fashion-related, but it's more, it has other things we could say about it, whether it’s civil rights or, you know, stamina, [chuckling] womens’ stamina, whatever. But, at the end of the day, I come away thinking with Kadeem that, you know, we shared something that, it's not deep because we’re not a dysfunctional family. He's just a guy who just basically, you know, don't stay up on calling. He's just that guy.

NK: Sons, right?

BH: Yeah, that's. [NK chuckles, knowing a parent’s feeling for their son] Oh, I'm so happy you said that.

NK: I don't have one, but I know. [chuckling]

BH: But that's very true. No, sons are that way, more so than daughters. Daughters, you may not get along with, but they stay in touch. [both laugh] So, yeah, sons. And he's just, it's just, it's just, you know, and he explained you know, he gets in his own head and then he starts worrying about what the person that he really deems in such a regard, what they're going to think. And like I say, I'm never going to be disappointed in him. You know, I'm not going to go down that road. He'll have his journey and I have mine. And I know it's true. I am ambitious. I appear ambitious, anyway, even though I think I'm not. The results of my life show ambition.

NK: It certainly does, does do that. One last question, Bethann Hardison, before we let you go. One of the things you say in the film, favoured interventions, maybe an order of importance, I don't know. Tequila, hammocks, a fax machine. [BH laughs] Two out of the three, I won't say which, I completely understand. One of them, I don't know. Why are they your favourites?

BH: Well, you know, no one can deny the fax machine was genius. Come on! [ both chuckling] I mean, people say you still have a fax machine?! I said, well if you do things with the government, you need to have a fax machine.

NK: You're right.

BH: Governments don't, they don't believe, like, we are so caught up in the Internet of the computer, you know, that's dangerous. They knew that. We're finding it out as we're being hacked and vandalized on it, but you have to have a fax machine. So we had that discussion the other day in San Francisco at a dinner party of friends of mine. But tequila, yeah, yeah, that's, you know, that's an ease for a woman. I think every decent, good woman should have a tequila from time to time. It's good for the soul. And a hammock. Now, that's an invention. Yeah. I stand behind the hammock.

NK: If Bethann Hardison tells you those things, you need to have them, I will absolutely listen. Bethann, it's been a pleasure to speak with you. Thank you so much.

BH: Thank you. It's been a pleasure listening to you. And I'm so happy that you really enjoyed the film.

NK: I did.

BH: And you had all the emotions that went with it.

NK: I did. Thank you.

BH: Thank you so much.

CH: That was Nil’s 2023 conversation with Bethann Hardison. She’s a fashion agent, model, and activist. She’s also the co-director -- alongside Frederic Cheng -- of Invisible Beauty, which screened at the Victoria and Albert Museum in London today.

The AIH Transcript For April 17, 2025

Social Sharing