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The AIH transcript for April 21, 2025

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

STEPHANIE SKENDERIS: Hello, I'm Stephanie Skenderis, sitting in for Nil Köksal.

TALIA SCHLANGER: Good evening, I'm Talia Schlanger, sitting in for Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[theme]

TS: Tonight:

SS: Getting the sorry straight. For decades Phil Fontaine fought for an apology from the Catholic Church to residential school survivors, like himself. Today, he's reflecting on how Pope Francis made it happen.

TS: Reaching across the aisle. As tributes to the late Pope pour in, our guest says his papacy marked a big shift for 2SLGBTQ+ Catholics like her -- and that meeting him is a moment she'll never forget.

SS: Speaking truce to power. After a botched Easter Truce between Russia and Ukraine, and questions over the U.S.'s commitment to peace talks -- Donald Trump's former envoy to Ukraine tells us what he thinks the leaders need to hear.

TS: A new lease on life. Scientists find the strongest evidence yet for life on a planet outside our solar system. The lead researcher tells us why he thinks it just might be the real deal.

SS: In good hands. Noreen Young was one of Canada's best-loved puppeteers, known for her work on the kids show, Under the Umbrella Tree. Her brother remembers the love she brought to her craft.

TS: And...Ready to stumble. In the world's first half-marathon pitting humanoid robots against human runners, man left machine in the dust -- though admittedly, they looked kinda neat doing it.

SS: As It Happens, the Monday Edition. Radio that guesses for the robots it was no sweat.

[theme]

Part 1: Pope: Residential Apology, Pope Francis: 2SLGBTQ, Possible Planet Life

Pope: Residential Apology

Guest: Phil Fontaine

[people sing in chorus]

TS: The sound from St. Peter's Square in Vatican City this afternoon, as crowds gathered to mourn Pope Francis. As you have likely heard, the leader of the Roman Catholic Church has died. He was 88. The Vatican says the cause of death was a stroke and heart failure. In his final Easter Sunday address, Pope Francis spoke of peace -- calling for an end to violence around the world, including in Gaza and Ukraine. Messages of peace and empathy were central to his 12-year papacy and signaled a changing Catholic Church -- one that was willing, at least in part, to reckon with its past. In 2022, Pope Francis came to Canada to apologize to First Nations, Metis and Inuit residential school survivors for the Church's central role in that system. Phil Fontaine is the former national chief of the Assembly of First Nations, and a residential school survivor. He spent decades working towards that apology from the Catholic Church. We reached him in Calgary.

SS: Mr. Fontaine, when it comes to his relationship with Indigenous people, what do you think the legacy of Pope Francis will be?

PHIL FONTAINE: Pope Francis' relationship with Indigenous peoples is profound because he is the first pope to ever apologize for the church's wrongdoings with our peoples. And more importantly, we ask for forgiveness for all of the church's failures.

SS: And it took a long time to get that apology. You first traveled to the Vatican in 2009 to try to get that from Pope Benedict. What do you think was different about Pope Francis and his approach to the harms that were done by the Catholic Church that led to his apology in 2022?

PF: Well, first of all, Pope Francis was a compassionate person. He was humble. And his humility took him to a place where his predecessors were unable to go. We now have an opportunity to work on reconciliation together, to bring about healing amongst our peoples and in the relationship between the Catholic Church entities and our peoples. And in the process of reconciliation, share the truth of this experience with all Canadians, not just with our people. This is Canada's responsibility. This is Canada's challenge.

SS: After that visit to Canada where he apologized and where he asked for forgiveness, Pope Francis also denounced the doctrine of discovery, this declaration that the land being colonized was terra nullius, nobody's land, empty, justifying Indigenous lands being seized. Why was it so important for you to hear that from the Vatican?

PF: It was important because the Church had refused to denounce the doctrine for such a long time. That doctrine became embedded in U.S. Law, as it is in Canada, dispossessed our peoples of their lands, and of course, tried to eradicate any sense of spirituality that our peoples followed. And so, denouncing the doctrine of discovery, while it may not result in some fundamental shift in U.S. and Canadian law, you know, it enabled us to make our case more clearly and more persuasively than may have been possible before the pope denounced the doctrine. Though we recognize that it was highly symbolic. And he knew that, he understood that. As was the statement on genocide. We'd never heard someone say those words in such a commanding way as when Pope Francis said what the Indigenous peoples experienced here, Canada, was genocide. We had others speak about cultural genocide, But the reference of genocide as heavier, more serious legal implications than cultural genocide.

SS: You talked about the road to reconciliation and how much is left on that road. These things that were done and said by Pope Francis, of course, don't erase the trauma that was caused by the Catholic Church and he's been criticized for not going far enough in his apology. What is still left to be done?

PF: We never expected the Pope's apology to erase all of the harms that had been inflicted on our people. But what it did was set the stage for the next steps that have to be taken by church entities and our peoples. And it compels both sides to collaborate, to work together. We never expected that once the pope said I'm sorry, that the slate had been wiped clean. But, of course, it hasn't been. We know far better what the truth is, and that is what is the most compelling piece in the story of reconciliation, the truth.

SS: Just on a personal level, Mr. Fontaine, you spent so long fighting to effect change to get this apology, how are you reflecting on that time now?

PF: I want to be clear on this matter, I never thought that I was doing this alone. I was out in the wilderness by myself, so to speak, and the challenge we've had all along is that Canadians simply did not know about the residential school experience. And, of course, the composition of Canada has changed so significantly, so the challenge has been, has become even more serious. We have to educate and inform others about the Canadian story. And nothing like this that we're talking about is going to happen overnight. It's going to take some time. I mean, people have already reacted, for example, when they heard the passing of Pope Francis that, you know, people weren't kind about what is the presence represented to our people. Well, there are few people like that. But in the main, I think, people respected the pope for his humility, his kindness, his generosity, and his willingness to visit, to listen to us, and to render some very important decisions that reflect on the church generally, and on the lower level in the various dioceses in Canada, for example.

SS: Mr. Fontaine, thank you so much for sharing your reflections with us.

PF: Thank you, Stephanie.

TS: Phil Fontaine is the former national chief of the Assembly of First Nations. We reached him in Calgary.

[cold into next story. No music]

Pope Francis: 2SLGBTQ

Guest: Marianne Duddy-Burke

TS: Pope Francis's approach to 2SLGBTQ+ issues also signalled a shift for the Catholic Church -- opening new conversations, though they didn't always lead to concrete changes in the church's teachings. Marianne Duddy-Burke was part of that dialogue. She's the co-chair of the Global Network of Rainbow Catholics, and met with Pope Francis in 2023. We reached her in Boston, Massachusetts.

SS: Marianne, how is the news of Pope Francis' death hitting you?

MARIANNE DUDDY-BURKE: It feels very shocking after so many weeks when he was so ill and not active to have it look like he was on the road to recovery and then hear of his death this morning, right after he was present with so many people on Easter. It was shocking and very saddening.

SS: Pope Francis made headlines in the early days of his papacy. He responded to a question about the sexual orientation of priests by saying in part, quote, who am I to judge? What did statements like that signal to you?

MDB: Pope Francis has followed two popes who had treated and spoken about LGBTQ people very harshly. So, to hear him respond to that question with such a positive attitude, you know, acknowledging that we could be spiritual seekers and look for a relationship with God, and then to use the word gay, which previous popes had refused to do, was really a mark of a turning point.

SS: Given the differences between him and his predecessors, like you're saying, how much pushback do you think he faced on those things?

MDB: Oh, it's very clear that how being gay or queer or transgender is still a very, very volatile issue within Catholicism and at the level of church leadership. We know that even during, you know, the recent Synod Assembly meetings there was a lot of pushback from bishops across the world, particularly from Eastern Europe and Africa. But even within North and South America, there are factions of league church leaders who hold very different perspectives on how far the church should go on queer people.

SS: You met with Pope Francis back in 2023 with two other board members of the Global Network of Rainbow Catholics. What was that meeting like?

MDB: It was one of the most profound honours of my life to represent LGBTQ+ Catholics from around the world in meeting with Pope Francis. He was such an engaged and compassionate listener. It was clear he was taking everything in. He, you know, we all sat at eye level together. He accepted gifts from our community with real interest, he was very engaged. We spoke about a whole range of subjects from his call for the decriminalization of homosexuality and our pressing him for more implementation of that statement, to the pastoral issues that SSLGBTQ+ people face within the church, you know, not being able to get married, not be able to access all the sacraments, sometimes hearing homilies directed against us. The pain that family members felt because of church teaching. And then our own spiritual journeys. He just listened so intently. And at the end of the meeting, as he was holding our hands and even hugging one of my colleagues, said, your work is important. Keep pressing on. And that just felt like such a blessing.

SS: The openness, I mean, certainly touched a lot of people, it sounds like it did for you. But there were limitations to what actually changed while Pope Francis was head of the church. So, the Vatican approved same-sex blessings, but maintained that marriage was still just between a man and a woman, for example. And there are advocates who wish that Pope Francis had done even more to support to 2SLGBTQ+ rights. How do you weigh those parts of his legacy?

MDB: It's very true that there were no changes to official Catholic dogma and doctrine under Pope Francis' papacy, and that many of us had hoped that more would happen. I think that that is the work that we still have to be about, and really feel like we are on a trajectory to build a more inclusive and more affirming church at this point. So, that work is, it just needs to go on. There is still too much pain and sense of exclusion that happens for LGBTQ+ people, for our family members, for our friends. So, for the church to truly be the body of Christ, it needs to be open to everybody.

SS: And where do you see that going now? The church will begin the process of selecting a new leader. How hopeful are you that the progress that you've seen will be carried forward?

MDB: The fact that Pope Francis has appointed over 75 per cent of the men that will gather for Conclave gives me hope that at least much of the work that he was about will continue. I think that the fact that the global church has also taken this process of synodality so seriously, and has called for the church to be more acknowledging of its mistakes and its errors and its limitation, and to be more engaged in the work of equality and ministry to all is something that those folks in the conclave should be thinking about and praying about very carefully. So overall, I feel like we're starting a legacy, not at the end of it.

SS: Marianne, thank you so much for speaking with us today.

MDB: Thank you for including us.

TS: Marianne Duddy-Burke is the executive director of DignityUSA and the co-chair of the Global Network of Rainbow Catholics. We reached her in Boston, Massachusetts.

[newsy theme]

Possible Planet Life

Guest: Nikku Madhusudhan

TS: Whether we're alone in the Universe is a philosophical question for many...and one humans have long pondered, occasionally in dorm rooms during the early morning hours with plenty of snacks on hand. For others...it's a serious pursuit that takes place during work hours in properly lit offices. Six years ago, a group of Canadian astronomers discovered a planet orbiting another solar system...trillions of miles away...called K2-18b. And now, another team...who've been studying the planet using the James Webb Space Telescope...say that K2-18b may be home to life. Nikku Madhusudhan is a professor of astrophysics and exoplanetary science at Cambridge University and the lead researcher of the project. We reached him in Cambridge, England.

SS: Nikku, we hear about life potentially existing on planets other than Earth every now and again. What's different about your discovery?

NIKKU MADHUSUDHAN: We have to be very clear, we are not saying that we have detected life, obviously. We are saying that, we have contacted molecules, at least one of two molecules, which are uniquely produced by life here on Earth and have been predicted to be good biomarkers on other planets as well, including planets like K2-18b. The big advancement here is that this is the first time an observation has been made for a planet outside the solar system where there is any indication at all at this level of such molecule. And that is the big deal, that even the potential for there being biological activity based on an observation, an atmospheric observation, this is the first time to find that at this level of significance.

SS: Okay, so a remarkable discovery. Can you tell us a little bit more about this planet, K2-18b? What kind of place do you believe it to be?

NM: Yeah, so the planet is about eight-and-a-half times Earth's mass and two-and-a-half times the radius, so it's a big planet. And previously, before like five years ago, no one would have thought of this as habitable because it's just too big and we had this notion of it being like Neptune, a thick, hydrogen-rich atmosphere and the temperature pressure to be too hot below that to be habitable. But what happened in the last few years is that as we have been making more observations, we are finding that the atmospheric composition is rich in carbon-varying molecules like methane and carbon dioxide and not so abundant in molecules like ammonia and carbon monoxide. And that combination is best explained this would be an ocean-covered surface and a hydrogen-rich, thin hydrogen- rich atmosphere.

SS: When we talk about life on other planets, I think, you know, what kind of gets conjured up in your mind is aliens, maybe alien attacks. Is that the kind of thing we're talking about here? [chuckling] If you're correct about life on this planet, what do we think is there?

NM: Right, right. Unfortunately no, we are not going that far. So these molecules, DMS or dimethyl sulfide or DMDS, that is dimethyldisulfide, either of these molecules are produced largely by microorganisms in the Earth's oceans. So, we are talking about bacteria like algae or phytoplankton and so on. So, very, very, simple life. But even that would be a big, big breakthrough.

SS: Okay, so maybe not powering the UFO just yet, or maybe, I don't know.

NM: Not yet. [chuckling] We can't claim. [both chuckling]

SS: So, what would make you more certain?

NM: Yeah, we want to go in two directions. One is that we want to get more observations of the kind that we have just made. So, this is just one observation and it's already, and that is the big advancement transformational shift here that even with one observation, we are able to see anything at all. So, we want to make a couple more of those observations to see if that can be repeated, if that is indeed correct and stable. And then, on the side, we also want to do theoretical and explore experimental works to associate these molecules, to see if we can actually associate these molecules uniquely with life. So far, we can. That's what theoretical studies have said, but we want to remain open to other possibilities to see there are non-biological mechanisms that can also explain this.

SS: But if you're right, and I understand it's a 0.3 per cent chance that the observation is a fluke, but if it's right, what would that mean for us humans here on planet Earth and for our understanding of the universe?

NM: I like to give this very simple example that if you go into the outside at night and you look at the sky, your perception of the sky is one of an inanimate universe, right? But if we proved that there is life on one planet, that automatically means that there's got to be more out there because the universe is just so vast, there are billions and billions of planets out there, right? That means what you would be effectively looking at. Is a paradigm shift in perspective, you're looking at a living sky.

SS: I hear what you're saying about wanting to really make sure that this discovery is correct before you get too excited about it, but do you think you're right? [NM laughs deeply] Like, if you were going to bet on it, do you, do think you are right?

NM: Unfortunately, I'm not going to bet on it. [SS laughs] I really appreciate that. No, I mean, we have to be extremely careful. It's not just, you know, what I feel. I have to fundamentally be robust from within that I don't want to just believe anything until I see the data. Unless I'm in that mindset, it's very hard to lead studies like this in earnest. We have to be honest to ourselves because the implications to science and society are huge. So yeah, so there may be things I would want to believe, but I shouldn't let that take over the analytic mind that has to stick to basics because we are under very high-intensity operations here, and we have to be responsible and careful.

SS: All right, fine, fine. Well, I respect that. [both chuckle] Thank you so much for speaking with us, Nikku.

NM: Yeah, no, thanks a lot for having me, it was nice talking to you.

TS: Nikku Madhusudhan is a professor of astrophysics and exoplanetary science at Cambridge University and that's where we reached him.

[funk rock]

[chillhop house tour music]

Part 2: Kurt Volker, Noreen Young Obit

Kurt Volker

Guest: Kurt Volker

TS: Russian President Vladimir Putin called it "the Easter Truce". It was meant to be a brief pause for the religious holiday - a 30-hour ceasefire between Russia and Ukraine. But almost immediately both sides accused the other of continuing attacks. The so-called truce came in the wake of these comments from U.S. Secretary of State Marco Rubio on Friday.

SOUNDCLIP

MARCO RUBIO: We're not going to continue with this endeavor for weeks and months on end. So, we need to determine very quickly now, and I'm talking about a matter of days, whether or not this is doable over the next few weeks. If it is, we're in. If it's not, then we have other priorities to focus on as well.

TS: Kurt Volker served as the U.S. special representative for Ukraine negotiations from 2017 to 2019, and the U.S. ambassador to NATO from 2008 to 2009. We reached him in Washington, D.C.

SS: Ambassador, you just heard Secretary of State Rubio speaking on Friday. How seriously do you think we should take his statement? Is the U.S. really ready to walk away from this situation?

KURT VOLKER: I don't think we know the answer to that yet. I think it's unclear, in fact, what walking away means. Does that mean that sanctions on Russia continue, aid to Ukraine continues, and we're just not trying the negotiations? Or does that mean the U.S. Is cutting off everything for Ukraine, which actually would give Russia what it wants? So, I think it's very unclear what he meant by that.

SS: Just to be clear, do you think there is a path to peace without American involvement?

KV: I think there's a path to Ukraine surviving as a sovereign, independent European democracy with support from lots of friends and allies, European countries, Ukraine's own Indigenous efforts, etc. It'll just be more difficult, more painful, take longer if they're not continuing to get U.S. Support as well. And in terms of peace, the problem here is that Putin doesn't want peace. Putin wants to take over Ukraine. That's why he launched this invasion to begin with, and he feels that he can keep going. So, he's not interested in peace at all. And therefore, I think it's only pushback, only making the cost to Russia unacceptably high that's actually going to bring about an end to the war.

SS: If he's not interested in peace at all, then what do you make of this weekend's Easter Truce? Both sides accused each other of breaking the ceasefire. Do you see any reason for optimism here? Was this something genuine, or just political theatre?

KV: No, it's theatre for sure. The United States proposed and Ukraine has agreed to a 30-day truce if Russia also agrees. Out of the blue, Putin says, oh, we'll do a 30-hour truce without coordinating with anybody. And I think he's doing that just to try to keep the Trump administration on the hook from his perspective, that, oh Russia is interested in peace, it's just Ukraine that's not, which is simply not true.

SS: Well, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, the Ukrainian president, posted a statement to social media this weekend that reads in part, quote, either Putin does not have full control over his army, or they have no intention of making a genuine move toward ending the war, unquote. So, what do you say to that?

KV: Yeah, I think he's exactly right. Putin announced the 30-hour ceasefire. There was some reduction in Russian artillery launched at Ukraine, but not a zeroing out. And there were even drones and missiles that were fired. So there was no actual implementation of that by Russia. So his comment, either he doesn't mean it, or he doesn't have control. And think that was a sarcastic way to put it. Clearly, he has control. It's not a serious move by Putin.

SS: Both sides have complained that a ceasefire just enables the other side to reload and dig in deeper. So, do you see a role for a UN or an international peacekeeping force in the disputed territory to stop that from happening once a meaningful ceasefire is in effect?

KV: Well, I do agree that that is exactly what both sides will do. They will dig in and try to fortify the strongest defensive positions possible. As for the UN, I think that's out of the question with Russia on the Security Council, you can't trust anything that would be agreed at the Security Council, if anything were to be agreed. And as far as the international push goes, the purpose here is not to be an international, inter-positional force between two sides that we treat neutrally, it is to help Ukraine protect itself and deter future Russian attacks against Ukraine. So it's a deterrence force, or as the French and British are now calling it, a reassurance force, but it's not meant to be a neutral peacekeeper.

SS: You were President Trump's special envoy to Ukraine. You know both President Trump and President Zelenskyy well. I want to ask you very briefly to give your counsel to each of them now. And we'll just start speaking to President Zelinskyy. What do you think is the most important thing he needs to be focused on right now?

KV: He needs to be taking a positive and proactive position in favor of the ending the war, establishing a peace, and playing for the long term, which would include EU membership as soon a possible and eventual NATO membership. But he's got to stabilize the country. And to do that, he really needs to be working in partnership with the U.S. So, the argumentation that we have in public from Zelinskyy sometimes, while technically correct, I mean, he's telling the truth, he's right, it is not constructive to pick an argument in public in front of the cameras with JD Vance or with President Trump. That's not the way to do things. Stay in alignment with the U.S. And that will help turn the pressure against Putin. As for President Trump,

SS: Mm-hmm.

KV: I think what I would say is that, look, Mr. President, you have done everything possible to try to get Putin to be reasonable and end the war right now. He's not willing to do it. So, the time has come when we actually have to start putting pressure on Russia. Ukraine is ready. Ukraine's ready for a ceasefire. Ukraine's really ready to end the war. Russia needs to be pressured into that. And so, we've got to be tightening up the sanctions, secondary sanctions on those that are helping Russia avoid the primary sanctions on oil and gas, sanctions on the financial institutions, and we've got to have a long-term program in place letting Ukraine borrow funds and buy American weapons so that they can continue to defend themselves. It doesn't have to be taxpayer money, but Ukraine has to have the access to the weapons and ammunition.

Argentinian Musician

TS: As you've been hearing on the show tonight, Pope Francis -- the first Latin American pope -- has died at 88. Like him, Onna Lou is from Argentina. And at a time when she was a struggling student, the then Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio made a personal impact on her life. Ms. Lou is a musician who lives in Winnipeg now. And she told her story to the CBC this morning.

SOUNDCLIP

ONNA LOU: Well, I remember meeting him. At that time, I was going to church a lot, I was brought up Catholic, and I would play guitar at Mass a lot. So, I heard him saying Mass many times. So, for some time, he was just, the cardinal is here. And I remember his Mass would always be very interesting, he would always say what other priests wouldn't want to say and just go to the, always to the core of the Christian message, you know, and, like, honing in on the values and calling people to be good Christians. So, that's how I knew him first. And then, I was studying classical composition at Catholic University. And I was drowning in student loans and working every day of the week to put myself thorough college. And I was like five years into, like, a seven years major when my mom, who is very, very Catholic, she used to go to church with this woman, a building manager who had known Jorge Bergoglio, the cardinal, for many years. She was a collaborator. And she was like why don't you write him a letter? You know, he's always helping people. So, my mom did and she brought the letter to the office, to his office, she dropped it there and she explained to his secretary what was my situation and who we were, which was nothing, right? We were just regular people. But yeah, two days later, she picked up a letter that I presented it at my college, and I got a full scholarship for the last two years.

MARCY MARKUSA: So hang on a minute here. What you're telling us is Pope Francis was a reference for you?

OL: Oh yeah, you know the silliest thing, like I moved countries like three times after that, and I've lost the letter. But yeah, it was this letter, like, type-written, like in a computer written, but then at the very end was his signature, which was the tiniest thing. You wouldn't even, like, it was, like, with a pen, but Jorge Bergoglio, like, with the tiniest letter, which I think was just an expression of how humble he's always been.

TS: Winnipeg musician Onna Lou speaking with CBC Information Radio host Marcy Markusa.

[HORNS!!!]

Mini-Update: Red Crescent Killings

TS: The Israeli military is blaming the deaths of 15 emergency workers killed in Gaza last month on "professional failures." In a new report, the IDF says it has fired the deputy commander of the unit involved for, quote, "providing an incomplete and inaccurate report during the debrief". As we told you previously on the program, the IDF originally said the rescuers were advancing suspiciously in unmarked vehicles. However, footage later released showed the vehicles with their lights on and emergency signals flashing. The Palestinian Red Crescent Society was calling for an independent investigation into the killings. This week, they rejected the IDF's report, saying it, quote, "justifies and shifts the responsibility to a personal error in the field command when the truth is quite different" -- unquote.

[music fades back up]

Vegemite Gate

[R&B]

Noreen Young Obit

Guest: Stephen Brathwaite

[theme to Under the Umbrella Tree]

TS: The unmistakable theme from the classic CBC children's show Under the Umbrella Tree. The show taught kids life lessons through the experiences of a human and the three animals she lives with. Noreen Young was the voice and soul of one of them -- Gloria Gopher. But she also pulled the strings behind the scenes, helping create and produce the show. Puppetry was her life's work -- and passion. In addition to her work on television, Ms. Young also helped launch an international puppetry festival in her hometown of Almonte, Ontario. Noreen Young died late last week. She was 85. Stephen Brathwaite is Noreen's younger brother and a puppeteer who played Jacob Bluejay on Under the Umbrella Tree. We reached him in Almonte.

SS: Stephen, what's it like in Almonte today? How has the community there been remembering your sister?

STEPHEN BRATHWAITE: Oh gosh, there's a hundred emails and texts and posts on Facebook. And there is a sculpture in town of Gloria the Gopher, and there are flowers being left around it. And it's very, very beautiful and touching.

SS: I mean, many people do remember your sister from her work as Gloria Gopher on the show Under the Umbrella Tree. I sure do. I was just the right age for that show to be on TV. I remember it very, very well. But what was she like? What was Noreen like as a puppeteer, a producer, and as an older sister?

SB: She was a consummate professional and very funny and fun to work with. And like I said to somebody else, Gloria Gopher was Noreen Young. She was this feisty, little, sweet character that was in reality a bulldozer, so you better watch out. [chuckling]

SS: How did her love for puppetry start?

SB: She found a love of puppetry when she was probably 10 years old and she was doing shows on Bank Street in the window of a women's clothing store called Pallmeyers, I think when she about 12 or 14. And it just remained a constant and a passion. It wasn't cool to be into puppets when she at art school in the '50s, or late '50s I guess. But as soon as she was finished, she just got right back into puppets and never looked back.

SS: I mean, forging any career in the arts, puppetry definitely included, that's not easy. [SB laughs] She did it!

SB: You clearly have a pension for understatement. [both laughing]

SS: But I mean yeah, it's not an easy time but she did it, she found this success, she created Under the Umbrella Tree -- this successful show. What made her so sure of this path?

SB: She was tenacious when she felt that she had the right thing to promote. She just kept at it.

SS: Well, that's the Gloria the Gopher qualities right there, as you said, the feisty bulldozer. [chuckling]

SB: Yeah, tenacious for sure.

SS: It paid off. You were siblings, of course, you were also co-workers, as you were saying, you played Jacob Bluejay on the show. There was another character as well, Iggy Iguana, and we have a little clip that I just wanna play you. This is about the beginning of one show.

SOUNDCLIP

JACOB BLUEJAY: Look, I'm a knight in shining armor. Ha ha!

IGGY IGUANA: Wow, we sure had a great costume department on the show.

GLORIA GOLPHER: We certainly did. I'm a princess.

II: Say, Gloria, did you have a favourite costume on the show?

JB: Did you?

GG: Um, yes I did. I loved the one where we all got dressed up as bananas.

II: Oh yeah!

JB: That was a riot.

II: Yeah, that show had real appeal.

SS: What does hearing that bring back for you?

SB: [chuckling] It was an amazing time. And the relationships between Bob Studd, who did Iggy, and myself as people was kind of, and Noreen, of course, the three of us, they were foundational in a way. The characters were us in a really fundamental way, and Gloria was Noreen, she was feisty, was sweet, and inquisitive, and reflective. And I loved working with her. I loved performing with her. And I loved making her laugh.

SS: On top of all of that, I understand that she also helped others who wanted to do what she did. Do you have any stories about that?

SB: Oh my god! The list of people, Ronnie Burkett, of course, who's a Canadian national treasure, he reached out to her, wrote her a fan letter when he was like 10 or 12 years old, and she responded right away, which blew his mind. She helped him and gave him ideas and contacts, and Noreen constantly helped people, and it was like giving somebody a recipe for your favourite, you know, cake. She would never leave out the secret ingredient. She told people always what she knew and what she didn't, and who they might talk to as well. It was only generosity of ideas and generosity of spirit. And what she did in Almonte was wonderful. You know, her entrepreneurial nature was such that she knew that the Puppet Festival would also be an economic development tool for a small town. People would go away talking about Almonte and helping put the town into the regional map, if not the larger world. [chuckle]

SS: Does knowing that she helped Almonte, that she touched the lives of all these people, all of these kids that grew up watching her work, does knowing that help bring you some comfort at this time?

SB: Of course. I mean, she wanted to contribute to her community and she liked people and wanted to be appreciated, too. Just walking up the street today, because I hadn't been in town since she passed away, and people are stopping and wanting to give me a hug. And I sure appreciated it.

SS: What about for you? What does her loss mean for you?

SB: Oh, don't get me started. [chuckling] No, she was wonderful and I'm very grateful. But, yeah, what she contributed in town, she loved it, and she gave, and people knew that. They knew that what Noreen gave was totally an act of love. She leaves a wonderful legacy and a reminder to all of us how we can make the world just a little bit better if we just try.

SS: It's a remarkable legacy for sure. Thank you so much for speaking with us about it. Really appreciate it.

SB: I'm grateful. Thank you.

TS: Stephen Brathwaite is Noreen Young's younger brother. He played Jacob Bluejay on Under the Umbrella Tree. We reached him in Almonte.

[lofi]

Part 3: HBC Royal Charter

HBC Royal Charter

Guest: Mark Garner

TS: As the Hudson's Bay Company faces a financial crisis, it’s not just the striped blankets and scarves going on sale. The Bay applied for creditor protection last month. And now it's asked an Ontario court for permission to auction off thousands of pieces of art and historical artifacts. Among them -- paintings, documents, collectible Barbies...and more notably, the royal charter that launched the company 355 years ago. Mark Garner is a curator at the S.S. Beaver, a museum dedicated to Hudson's Bay's 19th century steamship. He also owns hundreds of pieces connected to the Bay and the Beaver. We reached him in Hamilton, Ontario.

SS: Mark, when you first heard that Hudson's Bay is hoping to auction off its royal charter amongst these historical artifacts, what did you think?

MARK GARNER: Well, it's a little bit concerning because it is a very iconic piece of our history. And for it to go up to auction concerns me about the bidding process and what may happen to it.

SS: What are you worried about?

MG: Well, it could be bought up by American investment bidders on that. I'd be afraid of it going into a large personal collection that is not on public display. And I'm afraid that it might disappear from the public's eye.

SS: You're not the only one with concerns, historians, Indigenous scholars, all expressing some concern that the charter and these artifacts could vanish into private collections. When you think about that possibility, this 1670 charter in particular, if you imagine it framed and hanging in someone's hallway or living room, how do you feel?

MG: I feel it very disheartening, because this is something that needs to be preserved, it needs to be in the public's view. I would not like to see it go into a private collector's collection just because they can afford to do that. It needs to properly be addressed and housed within Canada, I believe.

SS: Let's back up a little and talk about what this charter is. Can you tell us a little more about it and its historical significance?

MG: Well, when you look at the charter, the actual name on it is the Governor and Company of Adventurers Trading into Hudson Bay. So, in the early days, when we think of Rupert's Land, which was almost 4 million kilometres of watershed into the Hudson Bay, that's where it all started. But a lot of people think of this charter because it's, or Hudson Bay Company Charter that they think of a department store. But, really, it's much more than that. Like it mentions in the title, the company of adventurers that are trading, right? They didn't know what was in the north, they didn't what was the west. But they had to have that adventurous spirit to push forward and to explore our country as we know it now. So, when you think of just a charter, yeah, it may just be certain company governances and whatnot, but really I think it defines who we are as a country, who we as a people, and I think we should really identify ourselves as Canadians with those adaptable adventures.

SS: Okay, obviously a very significant document, no matter how you look at the history of the Hudson's Bay Company, this charter that was granted by King Charles II in 1670. In addition to this charter, what other notable items are being included in this auction?

MG: I've been told there's approximately 2,500 pieces, including fine artwork, some early Indigenous pieces, some Arctic North pieces. I feel that the old artifacts, as well as the artwork, are all very important in their own way. And as a complete collection, it is almost sad to see it get broken up as they're suggesting it that could happen in an auction setting.

SS: And how much do you think it could go for?

MG: It's hard to say, you know, with 2,500 pieces, like, some of the pieces of artwork could be very valuable. Today's day and age, and collecting, and vintage items, the sky's the limit on price.

SS: Well, what would you say to creditors of the company who might say, well, the priority here should just be who's got the highest bid, not ensuring public access?

MG: That's the thing, right? The company has to say and do what's going to be in the shareholders' best interest. Like in so many trades and other commercial businesses, you can have cheap, fast, and good, but you can't have all three. And this is a similar situation. They want to have the transparency, and the efficiency, and the fairness, but how are you going to manage to put all those things together in a fair manner that will also be cultural and historically significant?

SS: What about any protection that these artifacts already have? The Hudson's Bay Company archives are designated as part of UNESCO's Memory of the World Registry. Does that offer any protection when it comes to private sales?

MG: If they are currently under that, then I would think they would go to the museum, but they're property of the Hudson Bay or currently Richard Baker, we still don't know if he's going to put a bid on everything and that might put an end to the auctions. We're not sure of that yet. If they want to be fair to everyone, they have to be up for sale to everyone. I feel a lot of these need to go to the museum, but I don't see how that's going to be able to happen. I don't think there's any legislature currently that protects these items from private sale, or private investor, or even private American investor.

SS: What about government involvement? Some government organizations have sent letters to the company expressing their concern about the sale of the collection, including this charter. A court hearing is expected on that on Thursday. Do you think Canadian governments or institutions should step in to preserve this collection?

MG: I'm not against it. Throughout the Hudson Bay Company history, we've already seen a couple times how history has repeated itself, and this may not be much different. We're getting near the end of an era, and just as we saw in 1870, the Hudson bay gave up control and governance over to the Dominion of Canada, and now we're at a point where they're ready to dissolve. And maybe once again, that could be taken over by the country and preserved because of the country's rich and colorful history.

SS: In your view, do you think most Canadians understand what's at stake with this potential sale?

MG: I don't think so. I don' think the education was there. People know about the Hudson Bay Company. They don't necessarily have a full grasp of all the history that's behind that, though. So, I speak to a lot of people and they just think, well, we're at the end of an era. The company has been around for so long. Just let's be done with it, and close it up ,and forget about it. I don't think it's that simple. This is the backbone. This is such an important part, like I said, of Canadian history. It's a legacy, and I think we need to preserve that.

SS: Okay, we'll see what happens with this sale. Mark, thanks so much for talking to us about it.

MG: Thanks for having me on today.

TS: Mark Garner is a curator at the S.S. Beaver, a museum dedicated to Hudson's Bay's 19th century steamship. We reached him in Hamilton, Ontario.

[jazz]

Encore Drug Chicken

TS: It's always good when you can feed two birds with one scone, as the saying goes - I think. And in the case of a Kingston, Ontario man, it was a rotisserie chicken that was getting two jobs done. The bird was serving not just a delicious and pretty cost-effective meal -- it was also acting as a hiding place... for drugs. Kingston Police made the discovery after being called to the scene of a disturbance at a hotel. A search revealed two pellet guns and a quantity of drugs which had, quote, "been concealed inside a whole rotisserie chicken." Unquote. The case conjured a memory of our favourite rotisserie chicken lover -- who was consuming the birds at a rate that maybe should also be outlawed. A couple of years ago, Nil spoke with Alexander Tominsky -- aka the "Philadelphia Chicken Man." At the time of their conversation, Mr. Tominksy had just finished eating forty rotisserie chickens in forty days. And he tried -- with some difficulty -- to describe how the last one tasted.

SOUNDCLIP

ALEXANDER TOMINSKY: It was more of a texture than a flavour at that point. My adrenaline was pumping. There was just so much serotonin dancing around inside my skull, that the flavour wasn't really in my conscious at all. Just the sound of people screaming with joy.

NK: Why do you think people were so excited to be there and so excited for you? Just describe the scene for our listeners.

AT: Yeah, so when I started, I was a distance back from the audience. And then at a certain point, I needed some more energy and support to finish my last portion of the fowl. So I cut the caution tape, everyone surrounded me, and it was almost ritualistic. There was just swarms of people circling me and just heat was radiating off their bodies. There were seagulls flying in circles above. And then the most magical thing happened. A bee flew around the chicken, landed, and took a little piece and, and worked its butt off to fly away with a little morsel of the poultry. Everyone in the audience just started screaming. And that's when I knew that this was something special. This isn't just someone eating chicken. This is something different.

NK: Was the chicken laced with anything else? [laughing]

AT: [laughing] I think it might have, might have just had like a sodium overdose.

NK: Might have been. Yeah, that crispy skin is nice, but that's a lot, that's a lot of salt, for sure.

AT: Oh, yeah.

NK: What made you think it was worth doing, though? In all seriousness?

AT: I keep saying this, but it's the truth. It just felt like the right thing to do. I had my first rotisserie chicken and as soon as I bit into it, I knew that there could be something special here, so I just kept going for it.

NK: So the first one of the 40, that was the first you've ever had?

AT: I'd had it before, but it was, I don't know. I just, something came to me that…

NK: You just want to eat those every day.

AT: Yeah. And it wasn't even a thing like, oh, this is so good. Like, I am having so much fun eating this chicken. It was, something in my subconscious was pushing me to the longevity of at least seven days, and then 30 days, and then at 30 days, I didn't feel enough pain. So I took it to 40.

NK: Why, why, why not cheesesteaks, for example? Think philly, we think cheesesteaks. Is that just too done? You thought rotisserie chicken is a, is a niche that has not yet been conquered?

AT: Yeah, I don't really care for cheesesteaks. I mean, I don't care for chicken either, but it's a little bit more accessible.

NK: Right.

AT: It's a little bit more affordable. And it's just so simple. It's just a chicken that's been roasted, pretty much.

NK: It's a, it's a, it's a pretty plentiful meal.

AT: Yes, it is.

NK: For several people, let alone one, and let alone for, for 40 days. What's the strategy to get through one of these things?

AT: Just willpower, I suppose. My whole thing was trying to find the blandest chicken possible, and then enjoy it, or try to enjoy it, or at least consume it without any sauce. So it was definitely a challenge, but pain is part of the reward, and sensing a little bit of pain is healthy.

NK: Did you eat one throughout the whole day, like it was every one of your meals? Or you sat down for a certain amount of time to finish a chicken?

AT: Yeah. So when I started, it took me about 20 minutes. And then towards the end, it could have ranged up to 2 hours, just because my body started to reject not just chicken, but just food in general. I think that might be from the sodium. So I actually had to, and this is going to sound ridiculous, basically drink the chicken. So I would have to like, liquefy it in my mouth before I swallowed it. That way it would go down, and kind of stick around.

NK: There's a large carrot in some of the pictures on the table there. What's that about?

AT: If you ever go to a grocery store and you see a two and a half pound carrot, like, it's like you have to buy that thing. It's like I couldn't resist myself. So…

NK: I'm trying to figure out what your relationship with food is, based on how you describe needing to buy that carrot and picking chicken. Would you describe yourself as someone who loves food? Or you were just bored one day and thought, I'm going to do this?

AT: Maybe boredom had an element of it. I don't normally play with my food. I usually just use it as a source of keeping myself alive. But yeah, this isn't something I do too often. I did host an egg eating contest once. I guess that's the closest relative to this sort of category.

NK: And you finished the challenge on Sunday. Has your body recovered yet?

AT: I'm still having trouble eating. I haven't had anything to eat today. It's like a problem with just having an appetite, really. But I plan to go out and have some food. I'm meeting up with some Philadelphia organisers, to try to get some food donations to the people in Philly that don't have enough food. So trying to take advantage of some of this attention, to help the city I love so much.

NK: And did you see a doctor throughout these 40 days at all?

AT: Not yet. I'm afraid to.

NK: [laughing] I mean, all elite athletes, they need to check in with their sports medicine teams.

AT: Yeah, I suppose that's something I should consider.

NK: I can't even imagine. And I haven't eaten that many rotisserie chickens that you would want to eat one again.

AT: No, no.

NK: Never?

AT: I'm pretty sure that I'm traumatised. [laughing]

TS: From Our Archives, that was Alexander Tominsky speaking with Nil in 2022.

[hip-hop]

Reading: ‘The Selfish Giant’

TS: In some parts of the country...we've finally had a little taste of spring. Though depending on where you are today, it may have been cruelly snatched away as you once again grabbed that heavier jacket on the way out the door. And listen, just be happy you're not living in this next story....where Spring never comes. It's a classic from the pages of Oscar Wilde...and one of the many stories read and replayed over the years on As It Happens by our former co-host, the late Al Maitland. Here he is now, with The Selfish Giant.

Reading:

AL MAITLAND: Every afternoon, as they were coming from school, the children used to go and play in the Giant's garden. It was a large lovely garden, with soft green grass. Here and there over the grass stood beautiful flowers like stars, and there were twelve peach-trees that in the spring-time broke out into delicate blossoms of pink and pearl, and in the autumn bore rich fruit. The birds sat on the trees and sang so sweetly that the children used to stop their games in order to listen to them. 'How happy we are here!' they cried to each other. One day the Giant came back. He had been to visit his friend the Cornish ogre, and had stayed with him for seven years. After the seven years were over he had said all that he had to say, for his conversation was limited, and he determined to return to his own castle. When he arrived he saw the children playing in the garden. 'What are you doing here?' he cried in a very gruff voice, and the children ran away. 'My own garden is my own garden,' said the Giant; 'any one can understand that, and I will allow nobody to play in it but myself.' So he built a high wall all round it, and put up a notice-board. TRESPASSERS WILL BE PROSECUTED. He was a very selfish Giant. The poor children had now nowhere to play. They tried to play on the road, but the road was very dusty and full of hard stones, and they did not like it. They used to wander round the high wall when their lessons were over, and talk about the beautiful garden inside. 'How happy we were there,' they said to each other.

Then the Spring came, and all over the country there were little blossoms and little birds. Only in the garden of the Selfish Giant it was still Winter. The birds did not care to sing in it as there were no children, and the trees forgot to blossom. Once a beautiful flower put its head out from the grass, but when it saw the notice-board it was so sorry for the children that it slipped back into the ground again, and went off to sleep. The only people who were pleased were the Snow and the Frost. 'Spring has forgotten this garden,' they cried, 'so we will live here all the year round.' The Snow covered up the grass with her great white cloak, and the Frost painted all the trees silver. Then they invited the North Wind to stay with them, and he came. He was wrapped in furs, and he roared all day about the garden, and blew the chimney-pots down. 'This is a delightful spot,' he said, 'we must ask the Hail on a visit.' So the Hail came. Every day for three hours he rattled on the roof of the castle till he broke most of the slates, and then he ran round and round the garden as fast as he could go. He was dressed in grey, and his breath was like ice.

'I cannot understand why the Spring is so late in coming,' said the Selfish Giant, as he sat at the window and looked out at his cold white garden; 'I hope there will be a change in the weather.'

But the Spring never came, nor the Summer. The Autumn gave golden fruit to every garden, but to the Giant's garden she gave none. 'He is too selfish,' she said. So it was always Winter there, and the North Wind, and the Hail, and the Frost, and the Snow danced about through the trees.

One morning the Giant was lying awake in bed when he heard some lovely music. It sounded so sweet to his ears that he thought it must be the King's musicians passing by. It was really only a little linnet singing outside his window, but it was so long since he had heard a bird sing in his garden that it seemed to him to be the most beautiful music in the world. Then the Hail stopped dancing over his head, and the North Wind ceased roaring, and a delicious perfume came to him through the open casement. 'I believe the Spring has come at last,' said the Giant; and he jumped out of bed and looked out.

What did he see?

He saw a most wonderful sight. Through a little hole in the wall the children had crept in, and they were sitting in the branches of the trees. In every tree that he could see there was a little child. And the trees were so glad to have the children back again that they had covered themselves with blossoms, and were waving their arms gently above the children's heads. The birds were flying about and twittering with delight, and the flowers were looking up through the green grass and laughing. It was a lovely scene, only in one corner it was still Winter. It was the farthest corner of the garden, and in it was standing a little boy. He was so small that he could not reach up to the branches of the tree, and he was wandering all round it, crying bitterly. The poor tree was still quite covered with frost and snow, and the North Wind was blowing and roaring above it. 'Climb up! little boy,' said the Tree, and it bent its branches down as low as it could; but the little boy was too tiny.

And the Giant's heart melted as he looked out. 'How selfish I have been!' he said; 'now I know why the Spring would not come here. I will put that poor little boy on the top of the tree, and then I will knock down the wall, and my garden shall be the children's playground for ever and ever.' He was really very sorry for what he had done.

So he crept downstairs and opened the front door quite softly, and went out into the garden. But when the children saw him they were so frightened that they all ran away, and the garden became Winter again. Only the little boy did not run, for his eyes were so full of tears that he died not see the Giant coming. And the Giant stole up behind him and took him gently in his hand, and put him up into the tree. And the tree broke at once into blossom, and the birds came and sang on it, and the little boy stretched out his two arms and flung them round the Giant's neck, and kissed him. And the other children, when they saw that the Giant was not wicked any longer, came running back, and with them came the Spring. 'It is your garden now, little children,' said the Giant, and he took a great axe and knocked down the wall. And when the people were gong to market at twelve o'clock they found the Giant playing with the children in the most beautiful garden they had ever seen.

All day long they played, and in the evening they came to the Giant to bid him good-bye.

'But where is your little companion?' he said: 'the boy I put into the tree.' The Giant loved him the best because he had kissed him.

'We don't know,' answered the children; 'he has gone away.'

'You must tell him to be sure and come here to-morrow,' said the Giant. But the children said that they did not know where he lived, and had never seen him before; and the Giant felt very sad.

Every afternoon, when school was over, the children came and played with the Giant. But the little boy whom the Giant loved was never seen again. The Giant was very kind to all the children, yet he longed for his first little friend, and often spoke of him. 'How I would like to see him!' he used to say.

Years went over, and the Giant grew very old and feeble. He could not play about any more, so he sat in a huge armchair, and watched the children at their games, and admired his garden. 'I have many beautiful flowers,' he said; 'but the children are the most beautiful flowers of all.'

One winter morning he looked out of his window as he was dressing. He did not hate the Winter now, for he knew that it was merely the Spring asleep, and that the flowers were resting.

Suddenly he rubbed his eyes in wonder, and looked and looked. It certainly was a marvellous sight. In the farthest corner of the garden was a tree quite covered with lovely white blossoms. Its branches were all golden, and silver fruit hung down from them, and underneath it stood the little boy he had loved.

Downstairs ran the Giant in great joy, and out into the garden. He hastened across the grass, and came near to the child. And when he came quite close his face grew red with anger, and he said, 'Who hath dared to wound thee?' For on the palms of the child's hands were the prints of two nails, and the prints of two nails were on the little feet.

'Who hath dared to wound thee?' cried the Giant; 'tell me, that I may take my big sword and slay him.'

'Nay!' answered the child; 'but these are the wounds of Love.'

'Who art thou?' said the Giant, and a strange awe fell on him, and he knelt before the little child.

And the child smiled on the Giant, and said to him, 'You let me play once in your garden, to-day you shall come with me to my garden, which is Paradise.'

And when the children ran in that afternoon, they found the Giant lying dead under the tree, all covered with white blossoms.

TS: The late, great Alan Maitland, reading Oscar Wilde's The Selfish Giant.

The AIH Transcript For April 21, 2025

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