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The AIH transcript for April 23, 2025

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: It's no game. The trial of five former world junior hockey players accused of sexual assault began today. A journalist who's covered abuse in hockey for decades says the case -- however it ends -- could have a lasting impact on the sport.

CH: A fairy tailgate ending. An election worker in Dawson City tells us about helping Yukon voters reach their polling station after the ice bridge closed -- the solution came in the form of a makeshift station on the back of a pickup truck.

NK: Unholy chalice. Until just 10 years ago, academics at Oxford drank wine from a cup made from a human skull -- likely that of an enslaved woman. Our guest says his goal is to restore that woman's dignity and humanity.

CH: Grace period. A woman in Italy tells us Pope Francis's message of mercy inspired her -- which is why she waited in line for hours today to say a final goodbye to him.

NK: Keep on talking in the free world. Nardwuar tells us about his quest to interview -- and hip flip -- with all of the federal party leaders before Election Day.

CH: And...way down for the count. A CBC journalist joins researchers on a visit to one of Alberta's largest cave systems for the yearly bat census.

CH: As It Happens, the Wednesday Edition. Radio that bats its eyes and eyes its bats.

[theme]

Part 1: Jr Hockey Trial, Pope Visitation, Nardwuar

Jr Hockey Trial

Guest: Laura Robinson

CH: Today, the sexual assault trial began in a case that has rocked Hockey Canada -- and all of Canada. Five former members of the Canadian men’s world junior team are accused of sexually assaulting a woman in a London, Ontario hotel room after a 2018 event honouring the team. Michael McLeod, Dillon Dubé, Carter Hart, Cal Foote, and Alex Formenton have all pleaded not guilty. Police originally closed the case without charges -- until TSN reported that Hockey Canada had quietly settled a multi-million-dollar lawsuit with the woman. And reporting by the Globe and Mail revealed that that was not a one-off: Hockey Canada had a slush fund -- made up in part from player registration fees -- to settle similar lawsuits. Laura Robinson was in the courtroom today. She's an investigative reporter who wrote the 1998 book Crossing the Line: Violence and Sexual Assault in Canada’s National Sport about abuse in junior hockey. We reached her in London. And a warning, there will be discussion of sexual assault in this conversation.

NK: Laura, what was it like for you, having covered this world for so long, to see five pro hockey players sitting in a courtroom and sitting there accused of these crimes?

LAURA ROBINSON: Well, you know, they're not just five pro hockey players. They're five former junior world champions, too. So, this is Canada's top gold medal team from 2018 that has been charged with accounts of sexual assault. So, it's unprecedented. And when I did my book on the rape culture of junior hockey in 1998, I spent six years before that sitting in courtrooms, and I was there and the local journalist was there, now there's a huge amount of attention on this issue.

NK: Cell phone evidence has already been brought forward in this case, including five videos from NHL player Drake Batherson's cell phone. He's not accused of anything here, we should be clear. These are five videos that were recorded at the bar the players were at before they went to the hotel that is central to this case as well. What has what you've seen so far revealed about the NHL in this case?

LR: The NHL and this trial are very intertwined. Obviously, the alleged assault occurred in 2018 and these guys went on to their professional careers. And the videos are, I think, going to be very important. And I think when we look at cases of sexual assault now, so often it is being taped. And it's almost as if it's not real until it's on a tape. And so, these videos are very crucial. You know, we've already had it disclosed in the media that they use their phones for instance, first of all, to call the other guys here. You know, we're, a quick threesome. And that was interesting to me that that was in the Crown's opening statement. So, we're learning a lot through these texts and through the videos about kind of a way in which you could say sexual encounters are understood by junior hockey players that might be quite shocking to other people.

NK: There's also footage from the phone of one of the accused, of the woman who is identified only, of course, as EM in this case, saying that everything that happened that night was consensual. The Crown has already said that in its view, what it's trying to convince the jury of clearly is that they've said this is not evidence of consent. What argument was the Crown making there?

LR: Well, I think what the Crown the argument they will make, that's a very brief overview of what their argument will be is just because a woman who is all by herself and without her clothes on says in the video that she consented to sexual acts with a number of players, and as I understand, you know, the Crown's opening statement that most of them had clothes on in a very crowded hotel room, when she agrees to say on their video that this is consensual. I think what the Crown will be arguing is that there was, in her mind, intimidation. And could she have freely said that she gave consent if there had been no alcohol? And if she hadn't been in this very different ratio of, I would say ratio of power. These are big strong young men and she's one female, you know, in a very precarious situation for her. So, I think that will be a very interesting argument.

NK: This case, and the revelations that came out that registration fees were being used to settle lawsuits, has anything changed in the last two years from what you've seen, Laura, within Hockey Canada?

LR: Well, I do believe that decision-makers in Hockey Canada have tried to make real changes, but it's so ingrained in the whole culture of hockey. So, there may be good intentions, and I'm not doubting the good intentions of senior decision-makers at Hockey Canada. But they still live in a culture where if you into your local Canadian hockey league junior arena, you see that everything is designed around the worship of these young men. And it's also not just young men, it's young men who, there's a lot of violence on the ice. And they're rewarded for violence. So, I don't really think that things can change in Canadian hockey as long as we make, basically, violence on ice as something that is very masculine, very positive, and pretend that that understanding of oneself as basically a young, violent male, that that understanding is left at the arena. That understanding is carried with that hockey player wherever he goes. And that's one of the reasons we find ourselves in this courtroom today.

NK: Have you seen a broader cultural shift in the sport?

LR: I have not, to be honest. I believe that we've had some decisions. We've had two cases in Quebec last year that resulted in convictions, very similar circumstances. I'm happy to see that the courts are taking it very seriously. But in terms of other things, I'm not saying that these acts are being committed right now in hockey towns. Of course, I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is the culture on the ice hasn't changed.

NK: Could this case, however it concludes, bring about some sort of change?

LR: It will help to change, no matter how it concludes, it will help make the change.

NK: Just by virtue of the fact it's happening?

LR: Exactly, yes.

NK: Laura, I appreciate your time, thank you.

LR: Thank you for having me.

Pope Visitation

Guest: Sally Read

CH: Today, thousands of people gathered at St. Peter’s Basilica in Vatican City to say goodbye to Pope Francis. A choir sang. Cardinals chanted in Latin. And the Pope lay in state, in an open casket lined with red velvet, as mourners filed past to pay their respects before his funeral on Saturday. Sally Read converted to Catholicism in 2010. She stood in line for hours today at St. Peter's Basilica. We reached her in Santa Marinella, Italy.

NK: Sally, you've had a chance to pay your respects. How are you looking back on this day?

SALLY READ: Well, it was kind of intense, you know? It was physically demanding to be standing up such a long time in the heat and to talk to so many different people. And it was very moving to see the pope kind of lying in state. It's kind of surreal, you know? Because seeing a body in a coffin is a surreal moment, really. And St Peter's itself is so very beautiful. And I'm used to going in there a lot. But seeing it in that kind of circumstance, it was very, very moving.

NK: In terms of the people who were lined up for hours alongside you, when did you know, you've lived in Italy for a long time, when did you know that you wanted to be there in person?

SR: Funnily enough, I wasn't planning to go at all. I work at home. And this morning, I woke up and thought I was just going to work. And then I suddenly thought I have to go, I have to go. [chuckling] And I was thinking for a while, well, shall I go, shan't I go? Because I knew it was going to be a long wait. And then, I suddenly thought, I really have to go, you know? [chuckling] And it's partly because I did meet him, I had an audience with him with a group of people. I was at a conference a couple of years ago, and I asked him to pray for me and he did. And I really felt that I wanted to go and kind of, you know, say thank you. And to kind of pray for him in a way that was meaningful. So, that was why I suddenly, it was a spur of the moment decision.

NK: That audience that you had, what else can you tell us about it?

SR: Well, I'm a writer and a poet. I'm a convert to the Catholic faith. And I write on Catholic issues. And there was a conference set up by Georgetown University in the States. And there were novelists and poets from all around the world who were Catholic and, you know, Catholic issues reflected in their work. And we had a wonderful couple of days at this conference. And Pope Francis actually offered to address us. And he gave us this wonderful speech about poetry and about literature because he was a big fan of Dostoevsky and many poets, and Paul Claudel, the French poet. And he was incredibly encouraging about our vocation as writers. And then, we all got to go off and meet him one by one. And I didn't speak to him about my work. I had a particular issue in my life at that point that was very difficult. And I just grabbed his hand and said, you have to pray for this issue. And he said, I will, I'll pray for you. [chuckle] And his prayers really helped. So, yeah.

NK: That connection, many people feel, whether they had an audience with him or not, many of the mourners there, who else was in that line with you?

SR: There was a real mixture of people. There were some people who had come on holiday to Italy and they weren't even Catholic, but they felt that they wanted to be part of a historical moment. And there were Italian families who brought their children because I think, similarly, they wanted their children to witness something important. But there were equally people who were in tears and lots of nuns and priests who felt called to come and pay their respects. There were lots of disabled people that I saw and people with health issues who really seemed to be really earnestly wanting to do this. So, it was a real mixture, if I can be frank, of people who were doing the touristy thing [chuckling] and they wanted the experience and people who are more religiously kind of focused on what was happening.

NK: And how long did you wait?

SR: From the beginning of the line to actually getting to see him, it was three hours. So, it wasn't hugely long.

NK: We were just speaking to our Vatican analyst yesterday about all of the rituals, the rites, the traditions. Did anything, as it unfolded today, surprise you?

SR: I was very surprised that they didn't tell us to put away our phones. Because I took lots of pictures on the way in through the piazza, but then once I got into the actual basilica I put my phone away and people weren't asked to do that. And I thought, wow, this really is a sign of the times. And people, everybody was taking pictures of Pope Francis. And that kind of sat with me a bit strangely, to be honest. I used to be a nurse a long, long time ago and we had very strict rules about the dead. And I think taking pictures was not something that we would ever have done. And I guess I felt quite old. I mean, I'm in my 50s, but I thought, wow, this generation is, you know, the phones are just so important. You know, everybody was witnessing the event through their phone. And that was what you could see ahead was the majesty of Saint Peter's and then this sea of cell phones kind of filming what was going on. So, that was really interesting.

NK: It is interesting because there are such strict rules when you visit, just even as a tourist when an event like this is not unfolding. Do you think it's also a sign that the Vatican understands the reach of those phones and the power of those images being shared, even if it is unsettling to many mourners?

SR: That was the conclusion that I came to was that, actually, for every person taking a photograph of what was going on, it might be somebody who, you know, the interest was sparked in them for the Catholic faith, or could be meaningful for somebody. So, I thought as well, yes, there must be kind of, somebody had thought that through. It wasn't by chance. It wasn’t neglect that that decision was made. It was for a greater good, I guess.

NK: As you think about the future of the church that you converted to, that is so important to you now, what kind of leadership are you hoping to see next?

SR: It's very difficult to say, but I would love to see somebody who has Francis's humanity and his extreme care for the poor and the marginalized. And somebody who's equally going to stick to Catholic doctrine and beliefs and really be faithful in a world that's changing so dramatically. So, I'd see somebody, they talk about the traditional and the liberal, I don't like those terms, but ideally somebody who can embody both those sides of things.

NK: I'm glad we could speak, Sally. I appreciate this, thank you. Thank you.

CH: Sally Read was among thousands of people who waited in line to pay their respects to Pope Francis, whose body was lying in state at St. Peter's Basilica. We reached her in Santa Marinella, Italy.

[chillhop house tour music]

Nardwuar

Guests: Nardwuar

CH: Every time an election rolls around, Canadian party leaders have to prepare themselves for the debates, and the scrums, and the slinging of mud. But there's really no way for them to prepare themselves for Nardwuar -- full name, Nardwuar the Human Serviette. The Vancouver-based independent journalist racks up millions of views online for his deeply researched and eccentric interviews with musicians -- and thousands of views for his election interviews with the party leaders who will agree to speak to him. This morning, he dropped his latest, with Green Party co-leader Elizabeth May. And we reached Nardwuar in Vancouver.

NK: Nardwuar, the introduction our listeners just heard, answers a question, a simple question that you often start with, sort of, who are you? But I'll jump to your other question that you always ask your guests, why should people care about you?

NARDWUAR: Well, if I can do it, anybody can. [both chuckle] I'm here to inspire people. If that guy can do it, I can do it.

NK: Well, that's very generous of you to say, but I think you know from so many of your huge guests, big name guests, that they always applaud you for the level of detail, the research that you do. You must feel proud of that.

NARDWUAR: I, like, come from a tradition of CITR radio in Vancouver, Canada. But when I would do an interview, if the interview was boring, people would phone in and just say, this is boring! So, I always have the tidbits because I live in fear of people phoning in saying, it's boring! It's boring!

NK: [laughing] I can't believe anyone had the nerve to call you boring, Narduar. How dare they?!

NARDWUAR: But I love that! I love it! That's what I love about college radio! People are not afraid just to say exactly what's on your mind!

NK: Well, let's get to some of your your big recent interviews. Your conversation with Elizabeth May just dropped this morning, and you just might have broken a bit of news there. Let's play a bit of that.

SOUNDCLIP

NARDWUAR: Do you know Neil Young at all?

ELIZABETH MAY: Yeah, Neil just sent me an email saying he absolutely wants to do a shoutout on social media to help me because he gave an endorsement to Mark Carney. So, I don't know how he's going to do it. Maybe this is it. But Neil said, yeah, absolutely, Liz. You got it. Let's make sure people know to vote Green for you and Paul Manley. Send me the list of people that we, so he's gonna do something.

NK: But Neil Young already endorsed Mark Carney. She's saying he's promised to do something to help her party. She also, I think did a little bit of an impression of him. Do you think this is gonna tip the scales?

NARDWUAR: I wish I had this information because Ben from Neptune Records just sent me this morning a little thing from Neil's website of 4/19/25 and it said, Go Green Canada. I do hope Green champions Elizabeth May and Paul Manley are elected, knowing they will work hard across party lines for Mother Earth. Never forget the Green. So, Neil actually had endorsed the Greens at that time. Like, I was like, I wish I'd mentioned that, [NK chuckles] but I didn't know that 'till afterwards. There's always something, there's always a little tidbit, and I love that.

NK: Well, good. It's good thing that you're talking here. Now we know. You did speak to liberal leader Mark Carney.

NARDWUAR: Yeah, we did the interviews in the basement of Neptune Records. And I couldn't believe that the prime minister of Canada actually came to me!

NK: Yeah, I can only get them on the phone. We'll play a little bit of your time with Mark Carney.

SOUNDCLIP

NARDWUAR: I was wondering, Mr. Carney, would you do the hip flip game with me?

MARK CARNEY: Oh, that looks like so much fun. Yeah. Why not?

NARDWUAR: ARGH! YEEEEAAAHHH!

NK: Describe, I mean, what a joyous moment, clearly for you. I think he was laughing also. Describe what a hip flip is for those who haven't seen it.

NARDWUAR: It's kind of like a weird 1960s game, like Twister or something. You have, like, a pull and then a flipper and then you have to like flip the flipper. So, it goes between two people and you have to flip it. This is like a weird 1960's party game. Check this out right now. [a bell rings] do you hear the bell ringing?

NK: Yes.

NARDWUAR: That's the sort of thing that I carry around. So, like, I run to, like, Prime Minister Paul Martin's bus with the bell ringing. I'm like, would you do the hip flip with me? And he did it, so just the fact that he did with this bell ringing is pretty incredible. And so, it's kind of like a rush.

NK: And sometimes, security teams intervene. And I do remember your encounter with Stephen Harper's security team. Is that the one that stands out to you?

NARDWUAR: Yes, in 2004, I tried to approach Stephen Harper and get him to do the hip flip. And it didn't work out. And I was carried away by his security team. But believe it or not, since Paul Martian did it, Jack Layton did the hip flip, Jean Chrétien did the hip flip, Michael Ignatieff did the hip flip. Thomas Mulcair did the hit flip. I did a hip flip with Justin Trudeau. Jagmeet Singh did the hip flip three times with me, [NK chuckles] in 2019, 2021, and just recently. Yeah, Mark Carney, Jagmeek Singh, and Elizabeth May. And I guess right now, we're just waiting for Pierre Poilievre possibly to do the hip flip. I have tried, I have tried for him, and I did hear back from his people on March 30th, and they told me, quote, have your request and we'll let you know if this is possible.

NK: Well, it's not a no.

NARDWUAR: I have followed up about 10 times since then asking them and haven't heard anything back, but I'm still waiting to hear back. You know, I'll keep trying, though. I won't give up because that's what I've done in the past. For me, I guess this is kind of like, I guess this is like a long tradition going back now, 21 years. I mean, doing it, so. For me, it's just like, business as usual, get the hip flip done. It's gonna be hard.

NK: [chuckling] We have, you know, I ask because we and other media have certainly had a difficult time getting party leaders on the air during the campaign. Elizabeth May was on our program just last week. I've spoken to Jagmeet Singh in the past, but not during this campaign. So, what is your pitch, Nardwuar, before we go directly to the Conservative leader, Pierre Poilievre, if he's listening?

NARDWUAR: I would say to him, basically like, I'm still waiting to hear back from you, I'll keep trying. I won't give up, because that's what I do, I wanna complete this.

NK: Never gives up, never boring, Narduar, a pleasure. Nice to meet you.

NARDWUAR: Well, thank you, Nil. I really appreciate all the, you know, interest in doing this stuff. So, it's amazing that all this stuff can come back to life. So, for me, the Internet has changed everything. Just the fact that you are talking to me today and referencing these older hip flips.

NK: But that might be why some politicians say no, don't you think? [laughing] I don't know, you're not making the case for Mr. Poilievre to come on. It lives forever.

NARDWUAR: Oh, I would love him to come on! Like, I'll keep trying, that's why I've contacted his people over and over again and the invitation is there. I would love that to happen.

NK: Well, persistence does pay off. Nardwuar, I appreciate this. Thank you.

NARDWUAR: Keep on rockin' in the free world and do-do-da-lo-do!

NK: Do-do!

CH: [chuckling] Nardwuar The Human Serviette is an independent journalist. We reached him in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada.

[electronic]

Part 2: Dawson Voters, Skull Cup

Dawson Voters

Guests: Michael Lauer, Gabriela Sgaga

CH: If you've already cast your ballot in this federal election, you probably noticed the yellow signs with black arrows directing you where to vote. It was probably stuck in the ground, or taped to the wall of your local community centre. But in West Dawson, Yukon earlier this week, the scene was a bit less predictable. It involved a helicopter, the Yukon River -- and one of those yellow signs posted on a pickup truck. That ad hoc set-up came together after Yukon officials closed the ice bridge that connects the main townsite in Dawson City to West Dawson on April 7. Michael Lauer is the returning officer with Elections Canada in the Yukon. He's in Whitehorse. Gabriela Sgaga is a polling station supervisor in Dawson City -- and that's where we reached her.

NK: Gabriela, do you get this kind of request a lot? Someone asks you to hop in a helicopter to help voters.

GABRIELA SGAGA: [chuckling] No, not really. I have definitely been in a helicopter before just crossing the river during the freeze up and the breakup periods, just personally. But no, this is the first time. It was quite exciting.

NK: Any hesitation when they asked?

GS: Gosh no! No, no, no I'm always ready for that. I was happy to help

NK: What did the set up earlier this week look like?

GS: Well, basically, we needed some equipment to set up across river, so I arranged for a truck to be down there, a folding chair, a table, and I also posted on our face book page that we have in the West Dawson area let people know. And then, I just went along to help.

NK: And, Michael, we heard that the ice breakup happened, so this closure is normal at this time of year, but were you concerned at any point when the writ dropped back at the end of March? Were you trying to get people out earlier?

MICHAEL LAURER: Yes, as soon as the writ was issued, we were starting to encourage people, especially across the river, to, if they were ready to vote, come on to my office in Dawson City and vote by special ballot, which is available from the issue of the writ because we were expecting that with the warmer weather, we might have issues with the ice bridge not lasting through 'till advance polls or 'till Election Day. So, we wanted to make sure everybody who wanted to vote had the opportunity to vote in advance.

NK: Were you the one who called Gabriela up? When did you realize that you'd need this special setup?

ML: Well, I had been having discussions with Elections Canada headquarters in Gatineau since earlier on. And then, when the ice bridge was closed, then we looked at different options. We had to advertise on the local radio station in Dawson as well as the Facebook group just trying to get a handle as to how many people across the river were still interested in voting and had not had the opportunity to vote.

NK: Gabriela, back to that impromptu setup. It might be the most picturesque [both chuckling] voting booth in all the country. The booth was actually in the bed of the truck?

GS: Yes, well we had a fold-out table set up for all the paperwork. And then, the privacy screen was set up on the tailgate of the truck that was parked a little farther away for privacy. So yeah, tuck, tape, and all, the truck served its purpose.

NK: And how did folks react, respond? How many came out?

GS: They actually really, really loved it. We're a very social bunch over there. I think people were very pleased to have that opportunity and just really loved the idea that there was a chance to vote. And so, some people came down just to see and to say hello, and others came to vote. I think it went over quite well.

NK: And just to let listeners know, you are living in the city right now as well, right?

GS: Correct. I have a home in West Dawson, some land.But I'm in Dawson City right now for breakup because of work.

NK: Your work is clearly important to you. You said there was no hesitation when that call came. Why is this work so important to you?

GS: Well, I really believe in community and an opportunity to help in the community. And I think it's everyone's right to vote. And so, if I can help, I'm happy to do so.

NK: Do you have a sense, Michael, of how many people came out to your special setup?

ML: Yep, so we ran a special ballot kiosk. And part of the reason why I did it that way is anybody on the west side of the river, no matter where they lived in the country who was eligible to vote, was able to vote. So, we actually had 22 electors come out and vote, of which six of them were actually national electors, so they live in other parts of the country. Had we run an Election Day or an advance poll poll, then only people that live in Dawson would have been able to go vote. But by having a special-ballot kiosk, it was open to everybody who is an eligible elector, regardless of where they lived in the country.

NK: I guess because of the weather patterns and what happens out there, people might be surprised to hear that this doesn't happen more often.

ML: I mean, every year in the community of West Dawson, and those on the west side of the river, deal with either breakup or freeze up. Because, in the spring, it matters to when the ice bridge is going to come out. In the fall, once the ice starts forming in the river, then the ferry comes out and the access across the river is limited until such time as the ice bridge actually goes back in. Some winters, it's gone in November, December. Other winters, it doesn't go in until January. Some winters, it hasn't gone in at all. So, it's a reality that everybody's aware of, it just matters to what is impacting it that specific season? And how do we deal with elections? Which we tend to have either in the spring or the fall, so it has been an issue that we've been aware of for most federal elections, just dependent on time. Because normally, you're expecting a change one way or the other.

NK: Yeah, have you had this kind of setup or a similar situation before that you can remember?

ML: Yeah, there was a territory election where they actually put a poll on the other side of the river. It was actually in Gabby's garage. And I'm told in 2004, we actually did similar for the federal election. That was before my time, so I'm not fully aware of the details from that election as to what the situation was.

NK: And what's the reality going to be, do you think, for voters on Election Day, on Monday?

ML: So, we were very clear with everybody in the communications that those on the west side of the river, this was going to be their last opportunity to vote, and only opportunity on the west side of the river. People that didn't vote through the special ballot kiosk that we had, if they still want to vote, unfortunately, that's beyond my control. We've done it and we were clear that was going to be a one-time thing for this election. And we were encouraging everybody and we had a great turnout. So, I'm hoping everybody that's on the west side of the river that wanted to vote has taken that opportunity to vote.

NK: Gabriela, Michael, I appreciate your time.

GS: Thank you.

ML: Thank you very much.

CH: Poll worker Gabriela Sgaga in Dawson City, and Elections Canada's returning officer in the Yukon Michael Laurer in Whitehorse.

[rock]

Skull Cup

Guest: Dan Hicks

CH: The chalice has a silver rim and handle, and for decades, it was brought out for formal dinners at Oxford's Worcester College -- where it was filled with wine and passed around to academics and guests. Some of whom must have balked at drinking from it -- because the cup is made out of a human skull. Members of Oxford University drank out of that human skull until 2015, when it was finally put away. But still, no one knew the real person behind it -- and how their skull became a part of that macabre practice. In 2019, Dan Hicks was tasked with investigating that. He's an archeologist at Oxford and the author of the forthcoming book Every Monument Will Fall, which traces the history of the skull. We reached him in London.

NK: Dan, was this skull ever presented to you as a cup or a chalice at an event?

DAN HICKS: No, it wasn't, no. So, I haven't ever actually had dinner in the college concerned, in Worcester College. But I certainly talked to people who had had that experience.

NK: And when did you first learn about this?

DH: It was something that emerged in rumors and, you know, half-told myths and open secrets over the years in which I've worked in Oxford, which is 18 years now, and even earlier as an undergraduate. It was in the ether. It was something that people had heard about but didn't mention. But it was really then in 2019 that I was asked to have a look into the history of this item for the college. And so, I really undertook my research from then onwards.

NK: That was in 2019, as you said. As our listeners heard, this was happening until 2015. And there's a lot that's extraordinary about this one upsetting.

DH: Yeah, that's right.

NK: How it even started is one thing, but how it continued until 2015.

DH: And so, absolutely. We have to look at, you know, how it began. But actually, more importantly, as my book argues, how was it made to endure? And a part of that is simply, it's actually once you set something like this up, it's hard, actually, to, you know, question it. You know, it's hard for people to break with what seems to be an eternal tradition. So, even in something so extreme as this, which had only been happening since, you know, 1946, it actually, you know, took all that time.

NK: Were there people who spoke up?

DH: Yes, of course, there were. And there was an internal conversation in the college, which eventually, you know, they got to. But I guess, I mean, my role having been invited in was to try to take this, this item, this ancestor, of somebody's ancestor, we didn't know whom. On which, there was a name written, but it wasn't the name of the person, it was the name of the donor. And to try to tell a story which is about who we remember and who we do not remember, who is actively, you know, if you like, erased from history, or really dehumanized, you know, in these institutions. So, I had to tell the Pitt River's story and who this man was and how it ended up being handed over. But then also, who was this person, who was this woman? And actually, you know, what are we able to tell? How can we find something like some form of dignity, some kind of work that might undo some of the active work of the dehumanization that they've been sort of posthumously subjected to?

NK: So, not much was known about this woman before you started your research. What were you able to uncover?

DH: Yeah, so, absolutely. I mean, it was a sort of archeological process, really, of sort of working through archives. And overall, yes, I mean we were able to tell that it was sort of purchased at auction in 1884. It was handed then, I mean, after it was purchased by Augustus Pitt Rivers, the man after whom the museum in which I work is named, he then passed it down onto the grandson. And the grandson was a fascist Mosleyite, he was a member of Worcester College. And it was him that handed this item over to the college and instigated the ritual in the college. We can tell that in terms of form and size it was a female, it was an adult female. There was a radiocarbon date that was done by the college. And so, it's obvious this wasn't an ancient Neolithic or a Bronze Age sort of person from the U.K. It was only from sort of around 1800 or so in terms of date. And then, there's the circumstantial evidence in terms the stories that were told that this was an enslaved person from the Caribbean or from North America. And certainly, some of the histories of the man who originally owned it and his father, who was in the Royal Navy in the Caribbean, would seem to match up with that as well. But, I guess the whole point is that the violence in this case involved the active removal of any identity of who this person was. That's how the violence worked. And so, it's really a wider question for museums and institutions who are not, you know, using items in this or using ancestors in this way to address those really, you know, that really important question of actually what we can do when there isn't evidence of, you know, where an ancestor might be returned to? And that's the whole point of the violence. The violence was in order to sort of dehumanize in that way and to destroy and to redact someone's life, even to write someone else's life over the top of it. So, the story, and that was part of the problem or part of the challenge for writing the book, is how can you write this so we don't sort of centre the colonizers and the museum curators and so forth who have interacted with this over the years, but attempt to give some sort of dignity to the person involved?

NK: And where is the skull chalice now?

DH: It's in a cardboard box in the archive of the college. And in that respect, really, the story that I tried to tell in the book is actually one that you could tell in any museum of world culture, so many universities or medical collections around the world. We don't even know how many ancestors we're talking about in the U.K. or internationally who are in the situation where, you know, all of this evidence has been lost about them actively, they've been dehumanized in these ways, but how, actually, what should we do as societies, as institutions with these people? And how do we find some way of seeking to humanize, you know, their histories and to find dignity? And that's, incredibly, you know, that's not a conversation we've been having in the U.K. But it is certainly one that we need to look at where it isn't as easy as finding where an ancestor would return to, all that really important work that is happening for restitution. But actually, what happens when that also isn't possible, what should we be doing next? A part of it is, at the very least, we need to be honest about these histories. And so on that school, I think it's really important that the college have embraced this history, have asked me to write it originally and to look into it. And, you know, we're now able as an institution to sort of understand this history a little bit more.

NK: Well, I'm glad we could have this conversation, Dan. I appreciate your time.

DH: Okay, thank you so much.

CH: Dan Hicks is the curator of archeology at Oxford's Pitt Rivers Museum, and the author of the forthcoming book Every Monument Will Fall. He was in London.

[chillhop]

Edmonton Bat Cave

CH: Counting is pretty easy…most of the time. One, two, three -- I could do more, but you get the point. But even for an expert like me, I imagine counting is tougher when you're doing other stuff -- like hiking deep into the Canadian Rockies and maneuvering in total darkness through one of Alberta's largest caves and the many bats therein. Wallis Snowdon of CBC Edmonton recently got to experience first-hand how researchers conduct the province's annual "bat count" inside Cadomin Cave. And that census becomes more important every year, because of the deadly white-nose syndrome that is decimating bat populations in North America. Wallis Snowdon was led by biologists and bat researchers Dave Hobson and Lisa Wilkinson.

SOUNDCLIP

DAVE HOBSON: Important thing to do is when you're looking for bats, stop walking. If you're walking, stop looking for bats, so you don't slip and slide.

LISA WILKINSON: Dave, we're going to count as well, right? We're double-counting?

DAVE HOBSON: Yep, we are going to double-count. We'll do the double-count like we've done before.

LW: Some are easy to see. And in some areas where the chambers are really big and there's hundreds of bats, it's hard to get an accurate count. So, by doing two people counting, then we average it and hopefully get the best count we can. It's not exact. It's not an exact science, no. [chuckling]

DH: Bats can go a long way into a cave. And, of course, they use echolocation to find their way around. And, over time, they just have the knowledge of the cave. Because the same bats come to the same cave year after year after year. They're very loyal to their hibernation spot.

WALLIS SNOWDON: This chamber for whatever reason has all kinds of little clusters of bats and also had one of the oldest bats we've ever found in Alberta.

DH: It was at least 39 years old. And the oldest known bat that I'm aware of is a Russian bat that's 42 years old. Far as I'm aware, the oldest-known bat in North America and the second-oldest bat in the world. He not only had fidelity to the cave, but he had a fidelity to this particular chamber, and he had fidelity to the wall on which he hung on. This is just part of the turbine shaft that we've been exploring here. I don't think this particular chamber has a specific name.

WS: But you know you can find bats here? [chuckling]

DH: Well, this is one of my favourite places because there's lots of bats. There's at least 200 bats in this room.

CH: Wildlife biologists and bat researchers Dave Hobson and Lisa Wilkinson, with the CBC's Wallis Snowdon inside Cadomin Cave in Alberta.

[trumpet!!!!]

‘Infoman’

JRD: I see, I think you must have, if you want to be informed, you must have a lot of source. And I think the basic things because, how can I say that? It's a, we must speak to each other, even if we are not agreeing with everything. We, everybody must speak to everybody. And that's a problem with the internet. We are all in our little bubbles and we don't speak to each other. In Infoman, I try to speak to all the politicians. And that, I think, is important in our society to be able to talk to each, even when we disagree.

CH: Jean-René Dufort is the host of Radio-Canada's Infoman. He was speaking to Sean Henry, host of Daybreak Montreal.

[winding instrumental]

Part 3: ELXN: ON Voter, Curlew Costume

ELXN: ON Voter

Guest: Robert Nurse

CH: Next Monday is Election Day in Canada -- but millions of people across the country have already cast their ballots. Advance polls over the long weekend saw a record-breaking 7.3 million people get their votes in early. But plenty of other people are waiting until April 28th to make their final decisions. Including Robert Nurse. Mr. Nurse works in construction as a heavy equipment operator. He's a voter in one of the suburban cities that stretch around Toronto; one of the voters will play a big role in deciding the next government. But Mr. Nurse says he hasn't yet decided how to vote. As It Happens is speaking to voters during this election campaign about what matters to them as they prepare to cast their ballot. We reached Mr. Nurse in Brampton, Ontario.

NK: Robert, we're catching you on your lunch break right now. Is the election a big source of conversation for you and your colleagues?

ROBERT NURSE: Yes and no. [chuckling] We find the humour in a lot of stuff more than anything, but we do speak a little bit about how people feel, who they believe should be in power, and yeah, a lot of humour, though.

NK: It's good that there's humour. Because sometimes, when people are talking about their different views, the laughs aren't there.

RN: This is true. [both chuckle]

NK: Are people, I know you, as our listeners heard, you're waiting to cast your vote. You're still making a decision. What about your coworkers? Are they locked in already, or are they sort of going over the same kinds of questions?

RN: The few that I have on site, yes, they haven't voted yet. As far as I'm aware, none of them have voted yet. I think maybe one out of four of us are certain on who they want, and then the rest of us are like, I don't know.

NK: Does this election feel different to you?

RN: Definitely. It feels different because I know people wanted a change previously. And then, of course, with Trump and the tariffs and stuff like that, it's become more prevalent and more, let's say, hits home.

NK: What are the things you are looking out for at this point in this election before you make your decision?

RN: Before I make my decision, I would like to hear and see a lot more for what they're doing for Canadians directly. Those who are going to shelters, those who are homeless, those who are on disability. I want to hear what they are doing for those type of people, people who are struggling now, more so than, you know, giving tax breaks to, you know, corporations and tax breaks to those who are making good money or making money.

NK: How do those issues that you listed, how do those issue impact you and your fiance directly?

RN: Well, directly, my fiance is on disability. [chuckling] The monetary value monthly is only around $1,200. And it's really hard. And I can't imagine single people on disability surviving seeing rents are $1,500, $1,200, $1,300, you know, it's all over the place. And then, you've got food and everything. And then, yeah, this is no way to live.

NK: What have you had to do to make ends meet at this time?

RN: To keep our home and everything, we've been lucky where we have enough family. And, unfortunately, it's our parents that are dipping into their savings and stuff that helped us through the whole process of going through disability because it's not an easy process. You get denied three times before they really look at you. And then, you have to fight with a lawyer or on your own as much as you can against them. And, yeah, if we didn't have family and stuff that backed us up and helped us out, we would have lost our home, we would have lost our vehicles.

NK: We mentioned you're working in Mississauga today, but you live in Brampton, which is a suburb of Toronto. You've had to travel in the past to Alberta, as I understand it, to work in the oil fields, just to make some money to send back home. What else do you want politicians to know, Robert, about what it is like to make ends meet in a city like Brampton? You're the sole provider in your home, and it's an expensive city now.

RN: What I want them to know is that people are really trying. People are struggling out here. Like I said, it's great to hear all these tax breaks and whatnot, but we are going to end up having to pay for it.

NK: In terms of the tax credits you were talking about, the Liberals say they will review and reform the process to apply for the disability tax credit. The Conservatives have said they'll cut the income tax rate on the lowest income bracket. And the NDP says it plans on doubling the Canada disability benefit. How are those promises sitting with you?

RN: Of course, the NDP sounds the best. [chuckling] It seems like they're losing seats, which is sad because they did get us the dental stuff. And I'm understanding from fellow work people and friends and stuff that it's all about a trust thing. People aren't trusting and Singh because he went with Trudeau originally, and then he backed out and whatnot. They feel he's kind of flip-floppy. And then, unfortunately, the Liberals who seem like they're going to go through, possibly, their plan for it is the lowest, the worst. [chuckling] I think they can do a lot better, and should do a lot better for the average Canadian. And in terms of Poilievre, everybody feels he's new. Not that, he's not a new politician, but he would be new in the position of being a prime minister. And I think that has people a little worried. He sounds really good as an opposition leader. He brings up a lot of good things and facts and stuff. But as a leader, I think everybody's a little bit scared.

NK: It really does sound like you are a true undecided voter at this stage. And I think, you know, there are people who really identify with your situation, Robert. We should let people know you vote in the riding of Brampton North-Caledon, but that's a new riding, a new combination riding that was formed after the 2021 federal election. Brampton North, Liberals have taken that riding for the last decade by quite a margin. What's your sense of this newly formed riding? This is the second time you're voting, if I'm not mistaken, in an election, right?

RN: Right. Yes, it is. And, as I say, I think it's unfortunate because I believe a lot of people are so focused on Trump and how to deal with him and stuff, they're not looking at everything all overall. And yeah, unfortunately, no party is predominant in what they're speaking and what they are saying. Each have a little bit that would be awesome, you know what I mean? Would be great. But not one collectively. And I honestly thought that Pierre Poilievre coming in so late was gonna one-up, so to speak, everybody. And it didn't happen that way either.

NK: So, what do you think it's gonna come down to for you when you get into that booth?

RN: I think I'm just gonna have to stick with who I believe is going to actually do as they say, and then hope that they do, or that party comes through somehow. [chuckling]

NK: Robert, I appreciate this. We'll let you get back to your break and then back to work. Take care.

RN: Thank you so much. Have a great day.

CH: We reached Robert Nurse in Brampton, Ontario. He's one of the voters from across the country we're speaking to during this election -- and asking where are you feeling the squeeze?

[ambient]

FTR: Al Gore

CH: Al Gore isn't known for mincing words, especially about the environment. Inconvenient truths are his brand. But the former U.S. vice-president was particularly unapologetic in a speech at San Francisco's Climate Week on Monday. In his keynote address, Mr. Gore slammed the Trump administration for hindering climate progress, citing the president's resistance to renewables, in particular. But his criticisms addressed the political climate, too -- culminating in a comparison he acknowledged one is typically better off avoiding. Here's part of Al Gore's speech, For The Record.

SOUNDCLIP

AL GORE: We've already seen, by the way, how populist authoritarian leaders have used migrants as scapegoats and have fanned the fires of xenophobia to fuel their own rise to power. And power-seeking is what this is all about. Our constitution, written by our founders, is intended to protect us against a threat identical to Donald Trump, someone who seeks power at all costs to get more power. I understand very well why it is wrong to compare Adolf Hitler's Third Reich to any other movement. It was uniquely evil, full stop. I get it. But there are important lessons from the history of that emergent evil. And here is one that I regard as essential, in the immediate aftermath of World War II, a small group of philosophers who had escaped Hitler's murderous regime returned to Germany and performed a kind of moral autopsy on the Third Reich. The most famous of the so-called Frankfurt School of Philosophers was a man named Jurgen Habermas, best known I would say, but it was Habermase's mentor, Theodore Adorno, who wrote that the first step in that nation's descent into hell was, and I quote, the conversion of all questions of truth into questions of power. He described how the Nazis, and I quote again, attacked the very heart of the distinction between true and false, end quote. The Trump administration is insisting on trying to create their own preferred version of reality.

CH: Former U.S. vice president Al Gore, speaking at San Francisco's Climate Week earlier this week.

[folk]

Curlew Costume

Guest: Matthew Trevelyan

CH: Bird migration is a beautiful thing. Take, for example, the curlew. A gorgeous bird with brown-and-white plumage, and a long bill that curves downward. One of which migrated 85 kilometres through the English countryside this past weekend, surprising passersby due to travelling exclusively on foot, being absolutely enormous, and clearly having an entire human man inside it. That man was Matthew Trevelyan -- who made that journey one step at a time, inside a large homemade curlew costume, to raise awareness of the bird's endangered status. We reached Mr. Trevelyan, in normal people clothes, in Middlesmoor, England.

NK: Matthew, have you recovered fully?

MATTHEW TREVELYAN: To be quite honest, I set off feeling a little bit under the weather, felt pretty good on the walk, but I am now back to feeling a little bit under the weather.

NK: You sound a bit congested.

MT: I'm a little bit, yeah. Don't sound great, sorry about that.

NK: No, no, it sounds fine. I don't know you. Obviously, this is the first time we're speaking, but you did sound a little congested. And I wondered if sometimes your body, it perseveres and then as soon as the challenge is over, it collapses.

MT: Collapses. It goes back to collapse. I'm hoping not because I've got a few sort of appointments. Cathy the Curlew has still got a few engagements. I am going to have a good flower show tomorrow to promote curlew conservation. And then, I'm going to a fell race on Saturday. You know, so I can't collapse yet. But I am not feeling great.

NK: I'm grateful that you set aside some time to chat with us as you try to recover. Did you say its name was Cathy?

MT: Yeah, we wanted to give, well, as I was making her, the curlew, I realized I'm giving her a really long bill. The female curlew has a longer bill than the male. I realized, I'm making a female curley, she's the one that lays the eggs and, you know, has to be the mother. You know, so Cathy is a bit of a reference to the Brontes in Cathy and Heathcliff from Wuthering Heights. [NK chuckles] So, I'm hoping that Cathy will one day meet Heathcliff.

NK: So many layers in the British countryside and the curlew and and the British man dressed up as Cathy the Curlew. Can you describe, I'm looking at a photograph of the costume, it's quite beautiful and realistic looking, obviously not the size, but describe it for our listeners.

MT: Yeah, it's a 10-foot long costume. I couldn't quite work out how to do the flapping wings. So, I've folded the wings nicely against her side. The distinctive thing about the curlew, as I say, is this lovely, long bill. That was the first bit I carved out of a sort of block of foam and then the rest of it's made with split bamboo and covered in calico. It's a very cheaply constructed, lightweight puppet. And she's a sort-of brown speckled bird with lovely brown barring on her feathers and a lovely dark eye with very long legs. Of course, the legs are my own legs.

NK: [chuckling] Yes, of course. And you talked about your motivation in terms of conservation, but how do you get in to character? Is it like many actors say, you know, the wig, the costume changes them? Did you fully embody curlew behaviour?

MT: I do, absolutely. I think that once you're in the costume, you are Cathy. I enjoy becoming Cathy. It's a nice place to be.[ NK chuckles] And curlew are a lovely bird. I don't think Curlew have got a bad bone in their body. They're tremendous mothers, fantastic parents. I should speak up for the fathers as well. They are part of the team, keeping the eggs warm and looking after the chicks.

NK: Is that why you chose the curlew out of all of the other birds that might need help in the conservation department?

MT: Curlew are a particularly vulnerable bird because they're a ground-nesting bird. And they've got a particularly beautiful song. Their song contains these major and minor notes. The minor notes make you feel wistful and sorrowful and sort of pull at your heart strings a little bit.

NK: Very Wuthering Heights.

MT: Yeah there's a bit of that. And then, they also have this major note part of their call that makes you feel joyful and happy. And I think that's just the whole of human life. But they sort of make you feel something, and I feel for people who have grown up without the song of the curlew. So, that's why the curlew has become a kind of symbol for other ground-nesting birds that occupy the same habitat. A lovely bird called lapwing, oystercatchers. There are other ground-nesting birds like skylarks and all of those birds aren't doing that well, unfortunately. They're all vulnerable to many of the same problems.

NK: You loved being Cathy. You love wearing that costume and helping raise awareness about curlew in general, as you said. What was everyday like on this trek?

MT: It was wonderful because you're distracted from the long distance walking by the wonderful reactions of the people that you meet on your way, particularly children seeing the puppet. Absolutely light and you know the shrieks of delight across fields as they come running out the houses and running across to meet you. And then you go and have a little interaction with these kids and tell them about the big red button inside Cathy that means the wings extend and that you glide down from all the hills. It's just a lovely way to talk to kids about ecology and about birds. I think a love of nature starts with one species often and one bird. And I hope we can make some of these young people who will grow up to become ecologists, or nature-friendly farmers, or, you know, that kind of thing.

NK: Well, you just might. You mentioned you've got some other events coming up once you maybe tend to your cold just a bit. But after that, I mean, are you going to make this an annual thing? Are you ready to put the Cathy costume away?

MT: Absolutely not, no. Cathy will hang around the Nisadale National Landscape and the Yorkshire Dales for the entirety of the breeding season until her chicks have fledged and then she may go into storage for the winter, or return to the wintering grounds, I should say, return to coast.

NK: Of course.

MT: And she will visit schools, she will go to school assemblies and that's what I learned on my walk, that children are delighted by Cathy. So, I might have to build some giant eggs and I may have to, I'm thinking of adding a nice attachment so I can slurp up worms. So, there's various extensions that can be made.

NK: It's expanding, yes. And we'll see if Heathcliff shows up at some point. [chuckling]

MT: Yeah, Curlew are a wonderfully romantic bird. You know, they have a partner for life, and I'm sure Heathcliff will turn up.

NK: Great to chat with you Matthew, thank you.

MT: Not a problem. It's a pleasure to speak to you about curlew.

CH: Matthew Trevelyan walked 85 kilometres dressed as a giant curlew over the weekend. We reached him in Middlesmoor, England.

[brittpop]

FOA: Shakespeare Insults

CH: In the four centuries since his death -- on this date in 1616 -- a lot of words have been used to describe William Shakespeare. Words like "good", "awesome", and "pretty good". And while those positive descriptors are nice, I think the Bard himself would have preferred getting affectionately roasted -- given his own skill at fashioning insults. That craft has been studied by many over the years -- including Cynthia Ottchen and Wayne Hill. The pair from Cambridge University compiled a collection of every sharp word Shakespeare ever wrote -- and in 1992 they shared some of them with As It Happens guest host Dale Goldhawk. Here's part of their conversation, From Our Archives:

SOUNDCLIP

CYNTHIA OTTCHEN: Every insult just seemed to come up fresh and have something new to say. And really, they weren't the kind of insult that you'd be really offended by at all. They were the ones that really make you stop and think and laugh, really.

DALE GOLDHAWK: Well, give us some examples, if you will.

WAYNE HILL: Gee, you're such a dish of skim milk.

CO: Maypole.

WH: You idle of idiot worshippers.

CO: Though little bitter thing than err!

WH: It it possible that you should know what you are and be that you are.

CO: You speak an infinite deal of nothing.

WH: The tartness of your face sours ripe grapes.

CO: Never honk, or holler so.

WH: You smack of every sin that has a name.

CO: What foley I commit, I dedicate to you.

WH: Your kisses are Judas' own children.

CO: You great sized monster of ingratitude.

WH: Small things make base women proud.

CO: More of your conversation would affect my brain.

WH: [chuckling] They just go on.

DG: [chuckling] So you guys have this all worked out, it's a routine now, right? [laughter all around]

WH: Well, we just pulled some out five minutes ago. You know, we could do this again every five minutes. They just go on.

DG: Well, it occurs to me, you know, that here in Canada, these kinds of insults might come in very handy for question period on Parliament Hill. I wonder if they could be used in the British Parliament as well?

WH: Well, the thing is that there's an election going on right now, and already there's been some interest in using these insults back and forth as the contest comes to a crescendo.

DG: Alright, could you leave us, dare I ask, could you leave with a few well-placed insults, please?

CO: You are one that converses more with the buttock of the night than with the forehead of the morning.

WH: [laughing] Every day that comes comes to decay a day's work in him.

CO: You are not worth the dust which the rude wind blows in your face.

WH: You're ill-met by midnight.

CO: Is your head worth a hat? Or your chin worth a beard?

WH: What's here? The portrait of a blinking idiot presenting me a schedule.

CO: You are duller than a great thaw.

WH: [chuckling] Oh no! He has not so much brain as earwax. Do you want more? We could go on and on.

DG: No, we get the idea. Thank you both very much for talking to us.

WH: It's been a pleasure.

CO: Thank you.

CH: Speaking to As It Happens in 1992, that was Cynthia Ottchen and Wayne Hill -- the editors of The Book of Shakespearean Insults. Today marks the birthday of William Shakespeare -- and also, the anniversary of his death.

[lofi]

STEVE PAIKIN

CH: Veteran journalist Steve Paikin is taking The Agenda off his agenda. After nearly two decades hosting the daily current-affairs program, he's announced he'll be scaling back his workload at Ontario’s publicly funded network TVO. The show's final episode will be in June. In an interview with the CBC's David Common this morning, he talked about how he came to the decision -- recalling a conversation with a former host of As It Happens.

SOUNDCLIP

STEVE PAIKIN: So when i sign my last contract almost three years ago, TVO and I both agreed at the time that this would be the last one. I wrote a column about this yesterday, which dropped on the TVO website, in which are related story that Barbara Frum, I used to work where you're working. I used work at CBC. This was more than 30 years ago. And I remember having a conversation with Barbara Frum. And apropos of nothing, she said to me, you know, Steve, one day, the viewers just wake up and they get sick of looking at your face. And I thought that's been in the back of my mind for a long time and I don't want it to get to that point. So, how about June, 2025, after 19 years, and we'll pull the plug then? So, that's why.

DAVID COMMON: Of course, I'm only thinking about myself when you talk about the viewer getting sick of your face. I work in radio now after a long career in television. [SP chuckles] What do you think happened to me?

SP: Well, I think you're still beautiful. And remember --

DC: Awe! Thanks, Steve!

SP: And I think I'm about 16 or 17 years older than you, so your your day is a long way off. Don't you worry yet.

DC: What stands out for you after 19 seasons of The Agenda?

SP: You know, that's such a hard question to answer because I'm not a person who looks back at my own personal involvement and my own so-called career. I love to look back when it comes to history. I love covering history, I love doing stuff on history, but not my own. So, when you ask what are the big highlights, I don't spend any time thinking about that. I think the accomplishment to the extent there is any is the fact that for 19 years, most days of the week, we did a show. It's a marathon. I mean, you know, you're doing daily journalism as well. And to do a whole, I think it's the case that when you do these kinds of jobs, they're seven day a week jobs, you can't get away from it. You are constantly reading research, you are constantly booking guests, you are always vetting questions, you are writing stuff. When The Agenda's on the air, it's a seven day a week job. And so, just the fact that we've lasted 19 years, I think, is the thing that I remember the most.

CH: TVO's Steve Paikin on CBC's Metro Morning, today. After The Agenda ends, Mr Paikin will continue to work at TVO part time, co-hosting a podcast and writing a weekly column.

[ambient]

Missing Car

CH: We all lose things. Typically those things are small -- keys, phone, glasses, composure. But a man from Wicklow -- south of Dublin -- recently lost something surprisingly large. And despite long days spent searching, as of this morning, he still hadn't found the wine-coloured 2010 Skoda sedan he misplaced at the beginning of April, somewhere in Cork, while visiting the city for a friend's stag. After weeks of fruitless searching, in desperation, he turned to Corkonians for help. Here he is earlier today on RedFM's The Neil Prendeville Show.

SOUNDCLIP

NEIL PRENDEVILLE: Kieran, good morning.

KIERAN: Hey Neil, how are you?

NP: I'm good, good, good. Never mind the mortification now or the embarrassment. Welcome to the program. Tell us all about the story and let's see if we can find your motor car. How did you lose it?

KIERAN: Neil, I'll tell you what, I basically, I had a stag party in Cork, shout out to Spud, it was his stag, you know? And look, I, yeah, like I got into the city late at night kind of, and I couldn't find anywhere to park in the city. I got fed up with it and I drove like way out of the city, towards the south of the city. I'm not too sure how far I drove out, but I parked it up in an estate. And since then, I haven't laid an eye on the car since. I just can't find the estate.

NP: So, you drove south side you say, you know that much anyway.

KIERAN: That's the thing, yeah. I suppose, yeah, towards Douglas like it could have been, you know, within that kind of region, you know?

NP: Okay. And then you walked into the city to the stag. Was it a good night?

KIERAN: Oh, look, it was powerful. Yeah, I sure, look, it was actually my first time ever having a night out in Cork. I sure was delighted with it. Sure had met the best of people, had great night.

NP: I'm glad we looked after you in that regard. And where do you remember, where were you on the night of the stag? I'm just curious.

KIERAN: We were in Dwyer's and, sorry, Old Dwyer's and Reardon's.

NP: Wow, two good spots.

KIERAN: Kind of, yeah. Yeah, so that's how unsure, look, we were in Kinsale as well actually on the Saturday and that was phenomenal.

NP: YOu picked great spots, Dwyer's, Reardon's next door to it, and then down to Kinsale the next day. And then, when it was all over, probably on the Sunday, was it? It was time to regroup and go home.

KIERAN: Well yeah, everybody else did. No, one of the boys stayed back with me and we drove around Cork. We were to go to five hours driving around Cork to estates and looking for this car. And I put so much hours into finding this car. It's actually the stupidest thing I've ever done. It has just been a nightmare.

CH: A man identified only as "Kieran" explaining how he came to lose his car in Cork, Ireland. He's since searched 59 housing estates, called police, and checked car impound lots -- all to no avail. Radio host Neil Prendeville put out the call for listeners to help and...it worked. A delighted but baffled Kieran learned that his car had been spotted -- a few kilometers away from where he had been pretty sure he'd left it.

The AIH Transcript For April 23, 2025

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