Note: Transcripts may contain errors. If you wish to re-use all, or part of, a transcript, please contact CBC for permission. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. Copyright © CBC 2025

The AIH transcript for July 03, 2025

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: The legal director for the National Council of Canadian Muslims talks about opening her email to see a video of an attack on a Muslim woman at a pizza parlour in Oshawa, Ontario. A horrifying incident, she tells us, is disturbingly not rare.

CH: Opening old wounds. Decades after the Jonestown massacre, the site of the mass murder-suicide is opening up to tourists. A guide tells us he's proud of the work, even if survivors are giving it mixed reviews.

NK: Here's the truth, now it is time for reconciliation. An inquiry finds British colonizers in Australia committed genocide against Indigenous people. Our guest says reckoning with that past is the first step in moving forward.

CH: Never a dull rodent. In response to a growing rat problem, Toronto considers taking a page out of New York City's book and appointing a rat czar to get the vermin under control.

NK: Joined at the hipness. Scientists catalogue the traits that give me...I mean, someone.

CH: Sure, someone.

NK: The indefinable, someone, that indefinable yet indisputable quality of coolness. And the results are surprisingly conclusive.

CH: And...pillow talk, all you have to do is wake up, roll over and describe your dream to a new device, and it will show you a video of the dream you just dreamed.

CH: As It Happens, the Thursday Edition. Radio that prefers not to make any blanket statements.

[theme]

Part 1: Oshawa Attack, Australia Indigenous Report, Cool Study

Oshawa Attack

Guest: Nusaiba Al-Azem

CH: Just after midnight on Wednesday, a Muslim woman was violently attacked in the Ontario pizza shop she owns. The National Council of Canadian Muslims says a group of teens swarmed the woman at her Oshawa Pizza Pizza -- ripping off her hijab and stomping on her head. Durham police say they are investigating all possible motives for the attack -- including hate. This afternoon, the daughter of that woman spoke at a press conference organized by the Council.

SOUNDCLIP

DAUGHTER: After seeing the footage of the incident multiple times, every time, I am left in shock to see my mother attacked by several people at the same time. She is very lucky to be alive. We do not want to see anyone else suffer the same fate. We flagged these issues of feeling unsafe and being vulnerable Muslim women, but were failed at resources. Did it have to take almost a dozen people viciously beating my mother, viciously beating my mother, ripping her hijab off, tearing out clumps of her hair, stomping on her neck, her back, for us to say that this environment has become unsafe for us?

CH: That was the daughter of a woman who was attacked early Wednesday morning at the Pizza Pizza in Oshawa that the family owns. CBC News is not naming the daughter due to concerns for her and her family's safety. Nusaiba Al-Azem is the director of legal affairs for the National Council of Canadian Muslims; she's been in touch with the family. We reached her in London, Ontario.

NK: Nusaiba, that is certainly difficult to hear, and even more difficult for this family to deal with. We can only imagine. You've been speaking with them directly. What have they told you about how they're doing right now?

NUSAIBA AL-AZEM: You can kind of hear it in her statement there. The family is obviously very shaken up and just coming to terms, kind of dealing with things as they're coming and just looking for justice in this moment.

NK: How did you find out about?

NAA: The family contacted us right away when it happened, and it was the first thing I saw when I woke up. So through, we have an incident report hotline on the website, and so they filled out an incident report. When I opened up my email, it was the first thing, I got in contact with them right away.

NK: Durham police say they have their hate crime unit assisting in this investigation and that they're investigating all potential motives, including potentially hate for what happened. And we should say that Durham police have told CBC News, our news colleagues, that the alleged attackers, they believe, are made up of males and females, the majority being female. What would you like to see done here? Are you, at this stage, are you comfortable with the response you've seen?

NAA: Our organization's been in touch with Durham Regional Police. It's our understanding that the family initially did not necessarily feel very supported, but has since felt that Durham police is very much involved and assessing all angles. And we're really optimistic about that investigation unfolding and the diligence that we've seen from them since.

NK: What was the family's concern initially? That they weren't being heard or taken seriously?

NAA: Yup. Exactly, precisely that. And I will say just on a general note, and not specific to this case, but we have that tip line and I've received these kinds of calls, these kinds of emails, unfortunately, every single day. And specifically in the Durham region and specifically in Ontario the last few weeks I've seen a marked spike in violent incidences against Muslims, visible Muslims. And what I'll say is that, unfortunately, in my experience, it is sometimes the case that unless a third-party organization like ours gets involved, sometimes folks can feel that cases may not get the police attention that they deserve.

NK: We're going to play a little bit more now for you and our listeners from the victim's daughter from that press conference earlier today.

SOUNDCLIP

DAUGHTER: I have tried my best to be there for my family. I have been helping at the restaurant for many, many years. One thing my family has noticed is a significant increase in the Islamophobic attitudes and actions we get from those who visit our business. This is truly alarming, and our leaders need to take notes.

NK: So, she's underlining what you were just saying as well, Nusaiba. And in March, we know a woman wearing a hijab was nearly set on fire inside a library in Ajax. That's just about 20 minutes, for those who don't know the area, from Oshawa. What would you like to see from police and other officials to help make Muslims there feel safe?

NAA: I think robust hate crime units have to be supported and be held accountable, and so that when businesses report incidents of harassment or hate, they're taken seriously and supported. And I'd just say the last time that I was on this show, Nil, unfortunately was also on the topic of Islamophobia. And it was for a terrorist attack that shook the country. And so, we heard promises in that moment that we were going to see change. And it saddens me so much that I've been invited to the show again to speak again to violent Islamophobia, or violent potential Islamophobia again. So, I just want to highlight that it really does take a whole-of-country approach to be able to eradicate hate of all kinds, and that does mean more than just words, although sometimes we don't even get words, but it means more than words from politicians, from civil society, from everybody across the board, so that we can build a society that everybody is safe and that we're proud to be in.

NK: It was after the Afzaal family was mowed down by that driver that you were on our program last. When you opened up that email, given what you've been seeing, what was the emotion you felt?

NAA: I mean, I have to say, I was numb in a lot of ways, not because of the shock of the incident. I was numb because, as I've said, this is something I've seen about eight, I think, in the last week alone. So, in some ways, numb in the form of desensitization. It wasn't until I clicked the video and watched it with my own eyes that it, like really, the violence and aggression of it shook me. I just, like I said, I was here, I was on the show, what was it, four years ago now, talking about Islamophobia. Around the same time, the organization that I presently work with released approximately 61 recommendations of all levels of government. Not all of those recommendations have been met, right? I would say actually, specifically Ontario remains as a province out of step with the movement of other provinces. And when we see that in this instance, a lot of the violent attack was, it appears to be, young people, there's a question here about, you know, how do we help prevent young people from festering hate? And, you know, can we implement for example anti-hate, anti-islamophobia curriculum similar to what we've seen other provinces do like Manitoba and Alberta? Because we cannot keep waiting for the next attack before we move on to change.

NK: And in terms of going back to work, back to their family business, this Pizza Pizza, is that something they're comfortable with?

NAA: I believe she was back the next day, and that's the reality, that's the economic reality of most people in this country. And a lot of the people who have experienced violent Islamophobia that I've seen in the last, even like I said, the eight incidents that I have seen in last week or so, almost every single one of them had to go back to work.

NK: Nusaiba, I appreciate your time. Thank you for coming back on the show. Please take care.

NAA: Thank you very much, Nil.

CH: Nusaiba Al-Azem is the director of legal affairs for the National Council of Canadian Muslims. She’s in London.

[plucked instrumental]

Australia Indigenous Report

Guest: Jill Gallagher

CH: It was, in fact, "genocide". That's the conclusion of a landmark inquiry into the colonization of Indigenous people in the Australian state of Victoria. This week, after years of study, the Indigenous-led Yoorrook Justice Commission released its final report. It found that the First Peoples of Victoria were subject to crimes against humanity caused by invasion and occupation by the British in the 1830s. That included mass killings, disease, sexual violence, and the forced removal of children. The commission recommended dozens of changes to the education and healthcare systems, and an apology for not giving benefits to Indigenous soldiers who served in the First and Second World Wars. Jill Gallagher is an Indigenous woman and the CEO of a Victoria health organization. She gave evidence to the commission. We reached her in Melbourne.

NK: Jill, to hear, to read, that conclusion from the commission, to see that word genocide, what did that mean to you?

JILL GALLAGHER: Oooo, jeez! You asking me that question like that has made me a little bit emotional. What it means for me is that, finally, after 250 years of colonization and oppression from our people, finally, some of our truths have been told.

NK: How do you see the effects of this, the impact, play out in your own family and people that you work with, even today?

JG: Well, even today, to see and hear Aboriginal stories about their journey from their parents, from their grandparents, to hear their stories and have them seen, recorded in an official document. The first time ever Australia, this country, has officially recognized that there were people, Aboriginal people, living on this continent before the British came. And there were atrocities and crimes, crimes against humanity were committed on the First Peoples of this country. And the fact that your radio station and your media are having an interest in what's happening in Australia, or what happened in Australia, is amazing. So, thank you.

NK: Oh, no, thank you, Jill, for making time for us to talk about it. What did it mean for your mother, you know, through the years, before this recognition? How did it impact her life?

JG: Yes. My mother was born into her own country in 1926, so not that long ago. She's turning 99 this year, and she's still with us.

NK: That's amazing.

JG: Yes. So, she's quite unique. Not many Aboriginal people live beyond 60. But my mother was born into a country that, her own country, where she was controlled. And she was not allowed to vote. She was not seen as a citizen of this country. And she was put on a mission. And that's where, after all the massacres and the crimes against humanity that were committed, the authorities at the time basically rounded Aboriginal people up and put them on missions. And you could not leave that mission unless you had a piece of document from the authorities to say that you could. There's a publication called Letters from Victorian Aboriginal Women, and their historical documents that letters from Aboriginal women who'd lived on missions all over Victoria, who wrote to their masters and asked permission to see their children.

NK: The report, as you know, Jill, calls for redress, redress for the human rights violations faced by indigenous people there. What would that look like for you?

JG: What redress looks like for me, I don't know. I mean, Aboriginal people, you know, and my Mum, the only source of employment my Mum can get throughout her working life was seasonal picking. That's like picking in the paddocks, bean picking, or potatoes, or onions. And so, that was her life growing up. Redress is important, but the fact that my Mum's story got to be told, and on the official record. The fact that other, many Aboriginal people's stories are on the records. I think hope is what I can sort of feel now. Hope that the world will get to hear about our stories here in this country.

NK: The world is hearing about it. And as you may know, Canada took a look, investigated its own history through the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. It looked at the history and legacy of the Indian residential school system here. And there were 94 calls to action published in the final report. Only 15 have been completed; 17, no progress there. How do you weigh that against those kinds of realities against the hope that you continue to have? What if there is slow progress, or no progress there?

JG: I am aware, even though this report has given me hope and some of my people hope, there is always that but, and that but is, will the government accept all the recommendations and implement all the recommendations? And how long will that take?

NK: Victoria's Labour government, we should tell our listeners, said it would, quote, carefully consider these findings. In Queensland, as you know better than us, a similar inquiry was cancelled when there was a change in government. So, how does that sit with you? How likely is it that this will actually lead to action?

JG: That is a fear. We all know governments, no matter how they're made up, and the politics that come with that. And yes, here in Victoria, we have a state government, a Labour government at the moment. And we also have an opposition, which is the Liberal government. And they've made it very clear that, and we've got elections next year, by the way. They've made it clear that they do not support the process. So, that is a real concern. But I have faith. I have faith in all Victorians, because we had a lot of non-Aboriginal people give evidence to the Yoorrook Commission, give evidence and apologize for the parts that their ancestors played in some of those crimes against humanity.

NK: Jill, I'm very glad we could speak. Please take care. And send our best to your mom.

JG: Thank you very much.

CH: Jill Gallagher is the CEO of the Victorian Aboriginal Community Controlled Health Organization. We reached her in Melbourne, Australia.

[ambient]

Cool Study

Guest: Caleb Warren

SOUNDCLIP

[I’m Hip by Blossom Dearie/swing]

BLOSSOM DEARIE: [kind of singing?] I'm hip, I'm no square. I'm alert, I'm awake, I'm aware. I am always on the scene, makin' the rounds, diggin' the sounds. I read Playboy magazine, 'cause I'm hip.

CH: Blossom Dearie with I'm Hip -- a tongue-in-cheek catalogue of what it meant to be cool circa 1966. Now, some of those references may be a little dated. For example, Reading Playboy magazine [NK chuckles] hasn't really been a marker of cool for awhile now -- or maybe ever? But don't worry: a new study has determined exactly what it means to be cool today. New research published this week in the Journal of Experimental Psychology offers insight on what makes someone cool. According to a survey of 6,000 people from a dozen countries around the world, coolness can be boiled down to just six traits. Caleb Warren is the co-author of the study, and a professor of marketing at the University of Arizona. We reached him in Plymouth, Massachusetts.

NK: So, Professor, what are the six traits that make someone cool?

CALEB WARREN: Cool people tend to be extroverted, hedonistic, powerful, adventurous, open, and autonomous.

NK: Okay, people are making their checklists now, evaluating themselves, I'm sure, as we speak. When you looked across different cultures and around the world, did all of those traits line up?

CW: They're remarkably similar. So, we started this project because we were looking for differences in cultures. We know that the specific people, brands, and trends that are cool in one place are not the same as those cool in a different place. So, we wanted to see, like, are there deeper characteristics associated with cool people? How do those change across cultures? And we found that largely they don't. And all of our samples from, you know, India and South Korea, Turkey, Germany. Spain, the United States, Australia, we saw that these same six attributes are associated with cool people.

NK: And what do you make of those commonalities?

CW: I think it provides evidence that coolness has spread as a concept with its meaning largely intact. What cool means in the United States is the same thing that it means in Asia and Europe and Africa and everywhere else.

NK: You know, I wonder how much of an influence that soft power of pop culture and Hollywood films, those kinds of things, how much of an impact exporting all of that had on what you're saying?

CW: I think that's the most likely explanation for why the meaning is intact. There's sort of two possibilities. One is that this is capturing sort of a concept that is embedded in our genes, like we have this desire for coolness that exists throughout history and in every society. But I think that's a little unlikely because there aren't records of people using this word or even word closely related to it, if you go back before, say, the 1900s. Cool started to be used in subcultures in the United States, like those related to jazz and beatniks. And then, it became more popular around the globe in the 1960s and since. And so, I think that the most likely explanation for how cool spread and why it spread with its meaning intact is that it spread fashion and industry and movies and Hollywood and all of that.

NK: You also asked people what it means to be good. When you looked at good and cool, according to the people you surveyed, are they very different?

CW: The question we wanted to ask in this research is, is cool the same as just another way of saying you like someone, or you think they're good? And so, what we tried to do is distinguish cool people from good people, and the way we did that is in our study we asked participants to identify someone who they think is cool, or someone they think it's not cool, or someone I think is good, or someone think it's good. So, we had four different conditions, and what we found is a lot of the traits do overlap. Something like being autonomous, uh, cool people are more autonomous than not cool people good people are also more autonomous and not good people, but the difference with larger, in this case, for coolness than it was for goodness. Where as if we look at a trait like being agreeable, we can see that cool people on average are more agreeable than not cool people, but there's a much larger difference between good people and not-good people.

NK: You know, often...sorry, go ahead.

CW: I was going to say, so there is an overlap between being cool and being good, or generally desirable, but there are also these six traits that we mentioned that are more closely associated with coolness than they are with goodness.

NK: So, given that, and the fact that a lot of people associate, you know, people who are a little bit bad [chuckling] as being cool, I mean, would that be an accurate assessment?

CW: I think bad might not be the right word. I think it's more people who are different, or are at least willing to push against what is considered traditional, or maybe the right way of doing something in a culture. But in my earlier work, I focused more on one of these characteristics, which was being autonomous. And I knew from earlier work, and this work confirmed that being autonomous is cool. But what this work shows is you can't just go around doing anything you want without any regard for others. To be cool people, and in this research also brands, they were autonomous, so different, rebellious, things like that, in a way that seemed appropriate to the audience. So, I think that's also true here. It's, while cool is different than good, it's not that being bad will make somebody cool, but I think being different, or distinct, or counter-normative in a way that people not as a bad thing is what ends up making people cool.

NK: That's good advice for people who might be listening, trying to be cool. Fair to say that someone who thinks they're cool is probably not cool, [hearty laugh] or tells people that they are.

CW: I'm not sure. I think there's probably no relationship between how cool people think they are and how cool they actually are. I don't know. I have no good data on that. [NK laughs] I'd like to look at that in the future.

NK: The next study. But can you become cool?

CW: We didn't look at this question directly in this project. But in another project I have, we see that people who are trying to be cool end up seeming actually less cool than those who are cool without trying. So definitely, you might be able to become cool, but you can't get there if people think you're trying to do that.

NK: Caleb, I'm glad we could speak. Thank you.

CH: Caleb Warren is the co-author of the study "Cool People", and a professor of marketing at the University of Arizona. We reached him in Plymouth, Massachusetts.

[calypso]

Dream Playback

CH: And then, I guess all three of them pulled out bassoons. That's all I remember. So go ahead, Dream Recorder: play me back my dream.

SOUNDCLIP

[‘there’s no place like home… or the we’re in Delaware sound’]

[a helicopter, something falling from the sky, thwap sounds, a donkey brays? Dom Toretto says he doesn’t have friends, he has family in a very edgy way. I’ll kill you with my tea cup, I live my life a quarter mile by a time. horns?]

CH: Yeah. That was the dream, all right. I was cross-country skiing and then three donkeys fell out of a helicopter and landed in front of me, and all three of them turned into Vin Diesel, and then all the Vin Diesels started playing the bassoon. And that was just the audio from the video the Dream Recorder just played for me. I know what you're thinking: "Is this Dream Recorder a thing that will listen to me describe my dreams without saying, 'this is so boring', and 'listen, I'm a barista, you're holding up the line'?" Yes it will. It's a device you place at your bedside, like a clock radio or a toaster. And then -- in the words of the website -- "Wake up, speak your dream aloud in any language, and watch it come to life as a dreamscape..." That is to say, you croak out the details of the dream you just had, and through the terrible sorcery of AI, the gizmo shows you a video of that dream. This is an open-source product -- you can just download all the software, 3-D print the physical parts, and voilà: a device that enables you to bore yourself with your dreams, in addition to your family and friends and barista. And no matter how weird a dream was, at least you can be totally honest with the Dream Recorder. I mean, you made your bed -- there's no reason to lie in it.

[electronic]

Part 2: Jonestown Massacre Tours, Toronto Rat Czar

Jonestown Massacre Tours

Guest: Chris Persaud

CH: For decades, Guyana has wrestled with how -- or whether -- to confront the legacy of the Jonestown massacre. Now, a private tour company has decided it's time. In 1978, more than 900 people, most of them American followers of preacher Jim Jones, died there, in what remains one of the deadliest cult tragedies in history. Members of the Jonestown commune in the Guyanese jungle endured psychological, physical, and sexual abuse before being ordered to drink a cyanide-laced fruit punch. Those who tried to escape were shot and killed. Last year, we told you about Wanderlust Adventures — the private company that was planning to take visitors to the site. Those tours have now begun — with more scheduled for the fall. Chris Persaud is one of the guides. We reached him in Georgetown, Guyana.

NK: Chris, what are you showing and telling visitors on this tour?

CHRIS PERSAUD: We are showcasing what exactly it is that the people from the Peoples Temple went through. But it's not just showing them on the ground, but it's actually sharing the story from multiple perspectives over the 23 years that the Peoples Temple existed. So, this goes starting from Georgetown, where we meet with our guests, and then we take them out to Port Kaituma, which is the only, the closest settlement to where Jonestown was once located. And we actually incorporate a tour of Port Kaituma as well, and a bit of their history. So, that way, we have an ability to incorporate the locals, because many of these people, their ancestors, or even the ones that are still there, lived through the period of Jones's time in Guyana. So, we actually get to, you know, speak with them, meet with them, hear their memories, their recollections of what happened. And from there, we actually take you out to what is now just 3,800 acres of pristine jungle. But that was once the settlement that everyone knew of around the world as Jonestown.

NK: And what are people who've made this trip, taken this tour, telling you about why they wanted to be there?

CP: Yeah, the feedback has been very good. It's been a very emotional experience for many people, because many of them are professors. They've spoken about this at length. Many are researchers and journalists who've covered this story. And for them to actually be there 46 years later and see what it's become, it's been very emotional. We've had a few guests that have followed the story from San Francisco, and they've been trying for many years to get onto the site. And for them to actually be able to do that, they've been grateful towards it. To even be able to see the remnants of some of the objects that are left in Jonestown, lost to the jungle, essentially. We've been able to rediscover these items, take you through the jungle, and you get a sense of how the Peoples Temple first started. Because when those persons were brought from San Francisco to Guyana, there was no settlement waiting for them. They actually had to go into that jungle, clear it themselves.

NK: In terms of the research and the building of these tours, we spoke with the co-director of the Jonestown Institute back in December, and they were saying they had not been consulted, they didn't think this was a viable operation. So, have you consulted that institute and their research, or survivors, to put this together?

CP: Survivors, no. We have spoken of things with people who were here; Guyanese, who lived in the vicinity, through family relations and business. However, we have not reached out to survivors. The reason being, we look at this as it did have an emotional and psychological toll on the persons involved, especially the survivors and their families. So, to go reawaken those memories when many of them may not be ready to do so, we didn't think that was something, a good idea. However, we are open to persons willing to reach out, to share their thoughts, to give us some feedback, or even if they would like to come actually do the tour, see it for themselves, we're more than welcoming.

NK: Can you understand that they, some of those, many of those survivors, just the idea that this is happening at all, even if the intentions are good, is already difficult and retraumatizing for them?

CP: I can understand that, but the mission behind, or the reasoning behind us doing this tour is for educational purposes. It's not to say that we are heartless towards those people. I mean, we do understand that this coming back to light may have an impact on them, and they may not agree with what we are doing. But at the same time, do we forget the lives of the people who were lost there? Do we forget the significant impact that it took?

NK: It is, it is their story, but it is also Guyana's story. You grew up in Guyana. Uh, how much did you know and hear about the massacre as you were growing up?

SOUNDCLIP

AMY BEAVER: I was like, okay, now I can travel out of the country. And then, I got a lot of anxiety because I'm like, I don't speak a second language well, and I don't know other cultures, and I'm just gonna be so stressed out. So, I went to ChatGPT, and I asked ChatGPT, where can I go that's most like where I currently live? And ChatGPT said, oh, that would be Guelph. And so, I said, okay, and I bought plane tickets to Guelph.

CRAIG NORRIS: Did you have to say anything about Fayetteville?

AB: No.

CN: Or you just said the name and then it put it all into its algorithms and came up with Guelph?

AB: It did.

CN: Jeez, that's amazing. Wow! So, and then you visited Guelph this past weekend, right? Where did you end up going?

AB: We went to so many places. We did a tour of the university. We went on a food tour. We went to a farmers market on the food tour and had dumplings and squeaky cheese. And we also went to the art gallery.

EMILY BEAVER: We met the mayor.

CN: Um, and you were all in Canada just ahead of Canada Day. Now, I mean, I'm sure I, maybe it doesn't get a lot of coverage in the States in the news, but our relationship with the U.S. People here especially have been feeling especially patriotic. And we're coming up on July 4th for you, how are you feeling?

AB: I think we should just celebrate Canada Day. [laughter all around].

CN: Oh! Well, that's nice.

AB: I'm really disappointed in, in what has happened in the United States, and I'm tired of opening the news every morning and being afraid. And I'm grieving this country. I'm just going to dress up in all black.

CH: Amy, Emily, and Jeff Beaver, talking to Craig Norris, host of The Morning Edition, today.

[bass groove]

FTR: Hakeem Jeffries

CH: Democratic House Leader Hakeem Jeffries has been under fire in recent weeks for not doing enough -- or saying enough -- to fight U.S. President Donald Trump's agenda. Today, he expended considerable energy trying to address at least one of those perceived failures -- by speaking for a record eight hours and 44 minutes in a House tradition known as a "magic minute," which affords unlimited time to party leaders. Mr. Jeffries devoted all 524 of his minutes to a critique of the President's so-called "Big Beautiful Bill", which ultimately passed a House vote this afternoon -- and is on track to be signed into law on the 4th of July. The legislation promises to cut Medicaid, food assistance, and student loans to fund tax cuts and immigration enforcement. It's expected to add trillions to the national debt. Even so, its passage in a Republican-controlled Congress was ultimately a foregone conclusion. But Mr. Jeffries maintains that America's political future is not.

SOUNDCLIP

HAKEEM JEFFRIES: Imagine an America where everyone who works hard and plays by the rules can live the good life, afford to live the good life. [clapping] Good paying job, good housing, good healthcare, good education for your children, and a good retirement. That's what House Democrats are fighting for. That's the aspirational part of the Declaration of Independence, to bring that to life, the pursuit of happiness. That's the aspirational part. But then, when you look at that Declaration of Independence, the second part of it, it reads like an indictment against an out-of-control king. [cheers and claps] Reads like an indictment against an out-of-control king. I commend all Americans, perhaps sometime tomorrow, I'm going to do this myself, read that document in its entirety.

MAN: Yes! Come on, read it! Read it!

HJ: And why was that indictment? Issued? I think it was because framers of this great country, they were fed up with Project 1775. And so they implemented Project 1776. So, I know that there are people concerned with what's happening in America, but understand what our journey teaches us is that after Project 2025 comes Project 2026. [clapping and cheering] And you will have an opportunity to end this national nightmare as part of Project 2026. I love the framers. They gave us a blueprint.

CH: For The Record, Democratic House leader Hakeem Jeffries -- who spoke out against the U.S. President's "One Big Beautiful Bill" for eight hours and 44 minutes earlier today.

[dancehall]

Toronto Rat Czar

Guest: Alejandra Bravo

CH: Pests are part of city living. Where a whole bunch of people gather, so do even larger bunches of critters that like to feed on humans' garbage, pilfer their garden beds, and stalk their streets. But a Toronto city councillor says the stories residents have been telling her about the city's rat problem are the stuff of nightmares. A year ago, Alejandra Bravo filed a motion demanding Toronto come up with a "Rat Reduction Plan." Now, city staff are responding with a proposal that calls for the hiring of what some have described as a "Rat Czar." We reached Ms. Bravo in Toronto.

SOUNDCLIP

NK: Councillor Bravo, what have you been hearing from your constituents about this issue?

ALEJANDRA BRAVO: Even before I was elected, being in neighbourhoods, talking to people, knocking on doors, I'd heard that there were rats in the community. They were coming out of construction sites, they were in the backyards, they were getting into apartments, and it was really impacting people's quality of life. And so, I think what we're seeing here is the effects of climate change, combined with construction in all parts of our city, to create a perfect rad storm. And that means that rats are just being dispersed, raining into the community. I knocked on the door of a woman who had to bang on her screen door to disperse the rats who were setting themselves on her front step. And after getting elected, I will never forget the call from a mother who came into my office. Her daughter had been woken up in the middle of the night when a rat jumped on her bed.

NK: Mmm.

AB: And so, in my ward, apartment buildings are being constructed, major projects. Obviously, it doesn't affect everyone the same because of the high cost of having to deal with pest removal. That's really significant.

AB: You know, climate change has had a major effect on rats. And there's a study that came out earlier this year that proves that when we had cold winters, that interrupted the rat mating season. So, that would have been shortened. Now, a single pair of rats can produce hundreds of offspring in a year because there's no interruption to their breeding season. So now, all of a sudden, you have a city like Ottawa having to contend with this and taking action. It's a much colder city than Toronto. When we talk about the planet heating up, it's not the first thing you think about, but these are the real-life material consequences of having a warmer planet, and it's affecting people in such a visceral way.

NK: Last year-- a year ago this week, in fact -- you tabled a motion pushing for action on this issue. City staff have come back with this Rat Response Plan. What is in that proposal?

AB: First of all, it's putting in a lead. Up until now, city divisions haven't had anyone to lead this work within the public services, bringing all of the different divisions that touch this problem together. It then goes to targeted inspection and enforcement blitzes in communities with lots of construction, especially. And therefore, with high prevalence of rats. And I think the big, crucial piece here is the immediate requirement for city-led major construction projects to have a rat management plan as part of the process, and also requesting the same for private projects, private construction projects. So, we don't have the power within municipalities to compel through the planning process that private construction products have to submit a rat management plan as a requirement, but we're sending a signal here. No developer wants to come into a community and make that community more rat-y.

NK: One would hope. In its coverage, the Toronto Star reports that research done in the past back in 2018 by city staff suggested reports of all of the rat activity at that time might have been overblown, actually. So, certainly the stories that you've illustrated are upsetting, to say the least. Why do you believe that they're widespread?

AB: If you look at all the calls into reports, it's not as high as you might imagine. I think that's why this is taking a targeted approach into neighbourhoods where there's a lot of construction. Because everywhere there's construction, there have been multiple reports, and this has really resonated with people in the city. It's resonated with counsellors that have a lot construction. Once you start digging, you start seeing them. And if you see images of construction sites, you can see them. They're out in broad daylight. That's why the approach is pretty targeted and it's focused on areas where there's a lot of construction, where this is a real problem. And just because we get the calls, we see it in the community. You go around City Hall in the evening and you see rats everywhere, and there are rat traps, or rat holes into the tree wells. Not even at City Hall can you get away from the rats.

NK: Our listeners, you know, we've certainly covered rat czars, as they're known, in other cities, that kind of position. New York City is one that we've covered on this show more than once, if I remember correctly. You may remember that in its posting for that, I mean, they were tongue-in-cheek about it. You're clearly very serious about what is happening in Toronto, but they said that the person in that role had to be, quote, highly motivated and somewhat bloodthirsty, With a squash buckling attitude, crafty humour, and general aura of badassery, unquote. What kinds of qualities do you think the person who is hired potentially for the positions this proposal wants to create should have?

AB: Oh, you know, the New York example has inspired people all over the world. I think in Toronto what we need is a person that's got real leadership qualities, is driven to solutions, will bring all the divisions together, will be laser-focused on the interventions that are in this report, and delivering, and then measuring. Are we doing the right stuff? Like, are we counting? Are we measuring in the targeted areas and seeing a reduction in reports, seeing a reduction in people being affected by the rat problem, and then correcting if we need to.

NK: You know that the the financial situation the city is in; a $1.8 billion budget shortfall last year. The combined salaries for these two new positions in the proposal would be about $350,000. This is going up for debate before the appropriate committee next week. Do you think they're going to find the money to do this given the situation the city is in financially?

AB: I think that the money will be there if council directs this as a priority. There's a lot of cost that comes with dealing with the rat problem once it's gotten out of control. If there's one thing that we continually hear from residents in Toronto is we want the management of public space, we want the city to be clean, and we wanted the city to be maintained and this is a really concrete way to show people value for their tax dollars.

NK: Counsellor, I appreciate this.

AB: Thank you so much, Nil.

CH: Alejandra Bravo is a city councillor in Toronto. That's where we reached her.

The AIH Transcript For July 03, 2025

Social Sharing